10th Edition Rumour Roundup - in the grim darkness of the far future, there are only power levels

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**kodos**

well, for the new rules the real question is not if it is good or not
but how long it will last until we see power creep and design changes come up again

the basic promises are the same we have heard so often
3rd Edi without Codex, 8th Edi without Codex ot 10th without Codex won't tell us much about what to expect from that game on the long term, as the core rules were not the big problem in any of those before

**MajorWesJanson**

Tsagualsa wrote:
lord_blackfang wrote:
KillerAngel wrote:
Spinefists having a "Twin-Linked" rule gives me hope that universal rules are coming back.

Also having Assault and Pistol? Very interesting.

Cautiously optimistic.

The really interesting thing is the Fleshborer not having a weapon type at all.

The Fleshborer is [Assault] on both datasheet variants, it's the devourer that got no type.

Makes sense that some weapons are just plain, without special rules, without having to call them HuntR.

**tauist**

I must say I'm a fan of inidividual unit weapon stats. A lot more elegant way of diversifying tohit numbers depending on the unit. Now you can have units which are better with some weapon than with other weapons, this was impossible earlier without adding a bunch of stratagem etc bloat

**Tsagualsa**

tauist wrote:
I must say I'm a fan of inidividual unit weapon stats. A lot more elegant way of diversifying tohit numbers depending on the unit. Now you can have units which are better with some weapon than with other weapons, this was impossible earlier without adding a bunch of stratagem etc bloat

I think it will really shine once we get to see profiles for 'complicated' superheavies and stuff like that.

**Daedalus81**

kodos wrote:
well, for the new rules the real question is not if it is good or not
but how long it will last until we see power creep and design changes come up again

the basic promises are the same we have heard so often
3rd Edi without Codex, 8th Edi without Codex ot 10th without Codex won't tell us much about what to expect from that game on the long term, as the core rules were not the big problem in any of those before

Their approach is different and measured.

Whether or not they can screw it up remains to be seen, but if they keep the page count down there will be less to fix.

**stonehorse**

Iracundus wrote:
While I have nothing against the Lion, I admit I am not so on board with more Primarchs returning, because as special characters they overshadow everyone else (and can't be killed off by GW without causing huge uproar). Take the hyped Lion vs. Angron. We know Angron won't win because he can be defeated and respawn while no loyalist Primarch can truly be killed off since they cannot come back again if truly killed. That robs any conflict of suspense IMO and becomes like those superhero/supervillain versus matches that end up being inconclusive or with the supervillain being defeated but able to always escape.

Also what I don't want to happen is it becomes an auto-win if it is a Primarch vs. any non-Primarch antagonist. Again that means no suspense in any conflict if the Primarch is guaranteed to prevail. What I might find more interesting is if a Primarch lost strategically to a non-Primarch, and how they cope with that blow to their self-esteem (or how their followers cope with their idealized hero being defeated). Even though it is still involving special characters, imagine if Farsight, Eldrad, Yriel, or the Hive Mind outmaneuvered Lion El'jonson or Guilliman, such that they got so involved in winning one particular battle or campaign, they lose on the wider front. Would followers drift away or denounce their Primarch as being weakened and now unworthy?

I surprisingly found Guilliman less bad than I had first feared when he returned, as he provided a sole voice of contrast against the 40K Imperium. His anguished loneliness was kind of the point IMO. I don't want 40K to turn into Primarch drama show like 30K.

Excellent points well made.

I have to say I have felt that special characters in general rob the game of suspension in the same way and also make the setting feel a bit smaller. In what is meant to be a galaxy, two prominent characters somehow manage to cross paths on a regular basis.

Have these significant characters in the background, where they can be instrumental in the evolving story, just not on the table where they can (and do) turn up to lead small forces.

**kodos**

Now that they started, the question is not if we get back all of them, but just how long it will take and in which order
a single loyalist Primarch with each new reset will take a while until it gets boring, while they will run it with the traitor ones soon

Daedalus81 wrote:
kodos wrote:
well, for the new rules the real question is not if it is good or not
but how long it will last until we see power creep and design changes come up again

the basic promises are the same we have heard so often
3rd Edi without Codex, 8th Edi without Codex ot 10th without Codex won't tell us much about what to expect from that game on the long term, as the core rules were not the big problem in any of those before

Their approach is different and measured.

Whether or not they can screw it up remains to be seen, but if they keep the page count down there will be less to fix.

as I said, not the first time they made that promise and if they will stick to it this time, we don't know (and remember, you just needed the free core rules and the datasheets of your units to play 8th edition as well, you never "needed" anything else)

but given that this is the 10th time they try not screwing it up again, with a mid-edition design shift or "we meant something different" after releasing the first codex, I don't give them the benefit of the doubt

**ERJAK**

stonehorse wrote:
Iracundus wrote:
While I have nothing against the Lion, I admit I am not so on board with more Primarchs returning, because as special characters they overshadow everyone else (and can't be killed off by GW without causing huge uproar). Take the hyped Lion vs. Angron. We know Angron won't win because he can be defeated and respawn while no loyalist Primarch can truly be killed off since they cannot come back again if truly killed. That robs any conflict of suspense IMO and becomes like those superhero/supervillain versus matches that end up being inconclusive or with the supervillain being defeated but able to always escape.

Also what I don't want to happen is it becomes an auto-win if it is a Primarch vs. any non-Primarch antagonist. Again that means no suspense in any conflict if the Primarch is guaranteed to prevail. What I might find more interesting is if a Primarch lost strategically to a non-Primarch, and how they cope with that blow to their self-esteem (or how their followers cope with their idealized hero being defeated). Even though it is still involving special characters, imagine if Farsight, Eldrad, Yriel, or the Hive Mind outmaneuvered Lion El'jonson or Guilliman, such that they got so involved in winning one particular battle or campaign, they lose on the wider front. Would followers drift away or denounce their Primarch as being weakened and now unworthy?

I surprisingly found Guilliman less bad than I had first feared when he returned, as he provided a sole voice of contrast against the 40K Imperium. His anguished loneliness was kind of the point IMO. I don't want 40K to turn into Primarch drama show like 30K.

Excellent points well made.

I have to say I have felt that special characters in general rob the game of suspension in the same way and also make the setting feel a bit smaller. In what is meant to be a galaxy, two prominent characters somehow manage to cross paths on a regular basis.

Have these significant characters in the background, where they can be instrumental in the evolving story, just not on the table where they can (and do) turn up to lead small forces.

Out of curiosity, why on earth would you think the suspense or w/e in a fight is literally who dies at the end? Especially with characters who are responsible for the ideas, goals, and wellbeing of literally billions?

If a fight between Angron and the Lion was even majority about who killed who, that would be doggak. The interesting consequences of a fight are in the goals and motivations of the characters and how the fight impacts the greater narrative. That's why people remember 'you killed my father, prepare to die' and not that he used a down-angle cross slash or whatever.

It's the same reason why X is stronger than Y arguments are dumb. It literally doesn't matter.

**Voss**

On the other hand, that's true too, though. Motivations and whatnot can't impact the greater narrative with SCs. SCs will always be who they are, and no matter how many times you put them on the small battlefields of 40k, they will have the same motivations and won't be changed by what happens.

They can lose tomorrow to Grog Dogsnot and still be the great hero of <faction>, whereas for a narrative person playing their own characters, that shameful defeat can be worked into their story.

The arguments about 'who's stronger between X & Y' is literally the only argument to have, because the players have no impact on their stories. Best to go by the advice of GW of old and accept that only bad people use SCs, and in general, no one should.

**lord_blackfang**

Warmachine fluff was pretty grating as it's a game that operates entirely on special characters but every time they butted heads in the story the loser had to miraculously survive, because they were an in game special character and couldn't be killed off, so we got truly asinine endings, the winner always having to rush off for some reason and never being able to take another 30 stupid seconds to gut their disabled nemesis and gain a world-altering strategic advantage.

**Lord Damocles**

See also: The fall of Cadia and the battle for Vigilus...

Oh no! They killed... Kell... and Bastonne... maybe.

**Tsagualsa**

lord_blackfang wrote:
Warmachine fluff was pretty grating as it's a game that operates entirely on special characters but every time they butted heads in the story the loser had to miraculously survive, because they were an in game special character and couldn't be killed off, so we got truly asinine endings, the winner always having to rush off for some reason and never being able to take another 30 stupid seconds to gut their disabled nemesis and gain a world-altering strategic advantage.

At least with Undead, Liches, Demons and the like you have the convenient copout that they're either really hard to kill or can come back anyway. It get's really annoying if it happens for baseline humans, the term 'plot armour' comes to mind. Just like everybody and his grandmother crossing the Rubicon Primaris to no ill effect, it reeks of cheap writing and screws suspension of disbelief.

**Gen.Steiner**

Personally, special characters don't bother me. I don't use them on the table (unless I have to - looking at you, Deathwing army and depending on rules not being able to take a generic terminator captain) and am not really worried about their stories.

For me, 40K is about the little people being ground to pulp in the hideous systems that make up the warring factions.

And, of course, giving them all names and back stories and throwing them into battles to die again and again and again

**Mentlegen324**

Iracundus wrote:
While I have nothing against the Lion, I admit I am not so on board with more Primarchs returning, because as special characters they overshadow everyone else (and can't be killed off by GW without causing huge uproar). Take the hyped Lion vs. Angron. We know Angron won't win because he can be defeated and respawn while no loyalist Primarch can truly be killed off since they cannot come back again if truly killed. That robs any conflict of suspense IMO and becomes like those superhero/supervillain versus matches that end up being inconclusive or with the supervillain being defeated but able to always escape.

Also what I don't want to happen is it becomes an auto-win if it is a Primarch vs. any non-Primarch antagonist. Again that means no suspense in any conflict if the Primarch is guaranteed to prevail. What I might find more interesting is if a Primarch lost strategically to a non-Primarch, and how they cope with that blow to their self-esteem (or how their followers cope with their idealized hero being defeated). Even though it is still involving special characters, imagine if Farsight, Eldrad, Yriel, or the Hive Mind outmaneuvered Lion El'jonson or Guilliman, such that they got so involved in winning one particular battle or campaign, they lose on the wider front. Would followers drift away or denounce their Primarch as being weakened and now unworthy?

I surprisingly found Guilliman less bad than I had first feared when he returned, as he provided a sole voice of contrast against the 40K Imperium. His anguished loneliness was kind of the point IMO. I don't want 40K to turn into Primarch drama show like 30K.

To me the whole Arks of Omen narrative illustrates the problem. The biggest event since Gathering Storm, with a really cool idea and some great additions....that with this I feel that's all been lessened. At the last miniute It hasn't been allowed to be something that stands on its own, instead it's turned out to be something to bring back another loyalist Primarch. Can't let it end with some big interesting plot twist or be solved by one of the many cool 'normal' characters in the setting, instead it's "Here's another Primarch to solve it! Primarchs the just the best!" because others aren't allowed.

Even just the Language they use the latest article feels like it shows it:

The Imperium grasps for a light in the darkness, and a light they shall receive.

....a true hero of legend.

....scything through humanity’s foes like wheat

Those lucky few who live long enough to return a blow are met with a bone-crunching wave of force, as the fury of the Emperor Himself resounds from his shield.

With 100 or so years within the setting, 2 of the Imperiums greatest long-gone heroes have shown up after millenia of nothing, and other characters can't compete because Primarchs.

Like, I just keep thinking of how cool it could have been if instead of this it had been something like Luther and the Fallen. Or Dante / The Sanguinor. Or even Abaddon realizing he made a huge mistake and Vashtorr has tricked him. Could have been all sorts of interesting things for a variety of characters. But no, another Primarch just suddenly being pulled out of effectively nowhere at the last minute to come save the day. Overshadowing all sorts of other things, lessening the themes of the Imperium/setting more, focusing the spotlight on Space Marines and the Primarchs even more and moving things closer to Horus Heresy 2.0 where it's the story of the Primarchs isn't a good thing to me at all.

**Shakalooloo**

Mentlegen324 wrote:
But no, another Primarch just suddenly being pulled out of effectively nowhere at the last minute to come save the day.

Well, given that The Rock was a prominent location halfway through the series, you can't really say it came out of nowhere for the guy that lives within The Rock to eventually put in an appearance.

**Mentlegen324**

Shakalooloo wrote:
Mentlegen324 wrote:
But no, another Primarch just suddenly being pulled out of effectively nowhere at the last minute to come save the day.

Well, given that The Rock was a prominent location halfway through the series, you can't really say it came out of nowhere for the guy that lives within The Rock to eventually put in an appearance.

I wasn't referring to the physical location of him.

**Shakalooloo**

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Shakalooloo wrote:
Mentlegen324 wrote:
But no, another Primarch just suddenly being pulled out of effectively nowhere at the last minute to come save the day.

Well, given that The Rock was a prominent location halfway through the series, you can't really say it came out of nowhere for the guy that lives within The Rock to eventually put in an appearance.

I wasn't referring to the physical location of him.

Maybe not, but he's hardly coming out of nowhere if they've foreshadowed him by spotlighting his famous home a little two books earlier. Now if, say, Vulkan popped up in book 5, that would have been a weird and arbitrary ending.

**Mentlegen324**

Shakalooloo wrote:
Mentlegen324 wrote:
Shakalooloo wrote:
Mentlegen324 wrote:
But no, another Primarch just suddenly being pulled out of effectively nowhere at the last minute to come save the day.

Well, given that The Rock was a prominent location halfway through the series, you can't really say it came out of nowhere for the guy that lives within The Rock to eventually put in an appearance.

I wasn't referring to the physical location of him.

Maybe not, but he's hardly coming out of nowhere if they've foreshadowed him by spotlighting his famous home a little two books earlier. Now if, say, Vulkan popped up in book 5, that would have been a weird and arbitrary ending.

The Rock and the Dark Angels just being involved in something isn't "foreshadowing", they're both their own entities. There have been plenty of things involving them without the Lion suddenly showing up.

**Mad Doc Grotsnik**

Lion having a lovely, if secretive sleep know only to the pet gremlins has been canon since Codex Angels of Death.

If a 25 year or more narrative run up is “out of nowhere” to you…..I don’t know what to say.

**Mentlegen324**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lion having a lovely, if secretive sleep know only to the pet gremlins has been canon since Codex Angels of Death.

If a 25 year or more narrative run up is “out of nowhere” to you…..I don’t know what to say.

...This isn't something they've been working on for 25 years, you know. That that piece of lore about him being asleep in the Rock was there doesn't make it any less of a sudden thing just one day go "Oh look, he's back now", it's not a "narrative run up" to just all of a sudden do something with a small bit of lore never intended to actually go anywhere 25 years later. It's an entirely arbitrary thing.

**H.B.M.C.**

Mentlegen324 wrote:
But no, another Primarch just suddenly being pulled out of effectively nowhere at the last minute to come save the day.

The Final Secret

The only people who know about the disastrous events that took place on Caliban all those millennia ago are the Emperor and the Dark Angels themselves. The Dark Angels will never reveal the truth to anyone outside the Chapter for they could not bear others to know the truth of their terrible shame. And all the while, deep within his cell, Luther, the betrayer, speaks of what is to come. Yet even the highest ranking Dark Angels do not know everything, although they may thinks that they do.

Buried even deeper within the Rock, is the final, greatest secret of the Chapter. Only one person in the entire universe knows the truth - the Emperor himself. For hidden inside a secluded, unreachable chamber at the heart of what was once the planet Caliban, Lion El'Jonson lies sleeping, waiting with the Watchers in the Dark for that time when he will be needed once again to defend the Imperium against its enemies.

- Codex: Angels of Death (1996)

You may call it "out of... nowhere", but some of us have been waiting 27 years to see that endlessly intriguing set of paragraphs from the first Dark Angel Codex come to fruition.

I'm not a Dark Angel player. I have no interesting in purchasing this minaiture. I'm also extremely happy it exists and I think it's great that he's returning.

Mentlegen324 wrote:
This isn't something they've been working on for 25 years, you know.

Of course they haven't. None of the people who work where when the above was written even work there anymore. But it's far from "out of nowhere".

If it'd been "Suddenly, Jaghatai Khan is back!", then that'd be out of no where.

**Hellebore**

Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lion having a lovely, if secretive sleep know only to the pet gremlins has been canon since Codex Angels of Death.

If a 25 year or more narrative run up is “out of nowhere” to you…..I don’t know what to say.

I think the point is that this particular narrative isn't anything special. He's had 10,000 years to wake up and there is no justification for him to wake up at this particular specific point than any other point. There's no narrative reason that makes this point in 40k THE reason he wakes up, over any other point.

So it comes across as a very plot contrived reason.

**lord_blackfang**

Hellebore wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lion having a lovely, if secretive sleep know only to the pet gremlins has been canon since Codex Angels of Death.

If a 25 year or more narrative run up is “out of nowhere” to you…..I don’t know what to say.

I think the point is that this particular narrative isn't anything special. He's had 10,000 years to wake up and there is no justification for him to wake up at this particular specific point than any other point. There's no narrative reason that makes this point in 40k THE reason he wakes up, over any other point.

So it comes across as a very plot contrived reason.

Yeah this. Sure, Lion was always there in the freezer to be pulled out again, but there no in universe reason why now.

**xttz**

Hellebore wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lion having a lovely, if secretive sleep know only to the pet gremlins has been canon since Codex Angels of Death.

If a 25 year or more narrative run up is “out of nowhere” to you…..I don’t know what to say.

I think the point is that this particular narrative isn't anything special. He's had 10,000 years to wake up and there is no justification for him to wake up at this particular specific point than any other point. There's no narrative reason that makes this point in 40k THE reason he wakes up, over any other point.

So it comes across as a very plot contrived reason.

Even as a DA player I get this. Gulliman had a long intricate story involving multiple locations and named characters working together to bring him back. But the Lion just... had an alarm clock set I guess?

I'm hoping that the AOO book gives a good explanation for how and why he suddenly comes back.

**Umbros**

They haven't released the story for it yet, so no surprise you don't know why...

**TalonZahn**

The Story:

A Watcher In The Dark woke up The Lion because Luther finally ran away from home and we only have 1 guy that knows outside of you. Also, he's the same guy that lost him.

The End.

**Mentlegen324**

Hellebore wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lion having a lovely, if secretive sleep know only to the pet gremlins has been canon since Codex Angels of Death.

If a 25 year or more narrative run up is “out of nowhere” to you…..I don’t know what to say.

I think the point is that this particular narrative isn't anything special. He's had 10,000 years to wake up and there is no justification for him to wake up at this particular specific point than any other point. There's no narrative reason that makes this point in 40k THE reason he wakes up, over any other point.

So it comes across as a very plot contrived reason.

Yes, this is what I mean. He's just back because he's just back now, it feels so arbitrary and contrived. Sure, there was the line of lore about him being asleep, but that makes little difference as that was never meant to go anywhere and 25 years later suddenly going "He's awake now" certainly doesn't feel earned or like it's had any real thought to it. The first book in the Arks of Omen series and he was already back.

There's also that Guilliman, Primaris, Indomitus etc has so, so much potential that's nowhere near exhausted to the point it feels like its the right time for it, and In-universe having 2 show up in like 100 years makes the whole thing come across as even more contrived after millennia of none of them.

**Breotan**

Come on, people. We've known Johnson was going to return ever since they started advancing the timeline and brought back Guilliman. We know this just as we know they'll eventually bring back the other missing Primarchs as well.

It's not a matter of "if" but more a matter of "when".

**ERJAK**

Mentlegen324 wrote:
Hellebore wrote:
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Lion having a lovely, if secretive sleep know only to the pet gremlins has been canon since Codex Angels of Death.

If a 25 year or more narrative run up is “out of nowhere” to you…..I don’t know what to say.

I think the point is that this particular narrative isn't anything special. He's had 10,000 years to wake up and there is no justification for him to wake up at this particular specific point than any other point. There's no narrative reason that makes this point in 40k THE reason he wakes up, over any other point.

So it comes across as a very plot contrived reason.

Yes, this is what I mean. He's just back because he's just back now, it feels so arbitrary and contrived. Sure, there was the line of lore about him being asleep, but that makes little difference as that was never meant to go anywhere and 25 years later suddenly going "He's awake now" certainly doesn't feel earned or like it's had any real thought to it. The first book in the Arks of Omen series and he was already back.

There's also that Guilliman, Primaris, Indomitus etc has so, so much potential that's nowhere near exhausted to the point it feels like its the right time for it, and In-universe having 2 show up in like 100 years makes the whole thing come across as even more contrived after millennia of none of them.

The Primarchs as a whole are arbitrary and contrived so that makes sense.

Guy has thing he thinks belongs to him that he treats badly. Thing rebels. Guy gets surprised and screwed over by rebellion. Wacky hijinks happen. American Dad has done the exact same plotline, better, like 8 times and didn't need 200 books to do it.

**JWBS**

TalonZahn wrote:
The Story:

A Watcher In The Dark woke up The Lion because Luther finally ran away from home and we only have 1 guy that knows outside of you. Also, he's the same guy that lost him.

The End.

Pretty much. imo one can criticise the lore for being bad, I do it all the time, but people here seem to be saying it makes no sense, it's illogical, something like that. No, not really.