Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

drbored wrote:
This is Space Marines we're talking about.

It'll be a 5-man terminator box.
Then there'll be ANOTHER 5-man terminator box with a different loadout.

And then there'll be the terminator captain, librarian, chaplain, apothecary, tech marine, lieutenant, all in separate 40 dollar boxes.

And then ANOTHER 5-man terminator box with ANOTHER different loadout.

Please, why even debate this?

We already have that, technically.

Exactly, and this is the Terminator Embiggening (instead of Primarising) so everything that we already have as a Terminator is gunna get a brand new plastic sculpt.

This also means new life for a lot of Terminator-equivalent things, and likely the ramp open for other stuff as well.

Here's what we can likely look forward to:

Terminator Captain
Terminator Librarian
Terminator Chaplain
Terminator Ancient
Terminators (ranged)
Terminators (melee)

Deathwatch Terminators

Belial
Deathwing Terminators
Deathwing Knights

Logan Grimnar
Arjac Rockfist
Njal Stormcaller
Wolf Guard Terminators

Lysander (fyi, already gone from GW site)

Blood Angels Terminator Librarian
Blood Angels Terminators (melee)

Kaldor Draigo
Grey Knights Brother Captain
Grey Knights Terminator Librarian
Grey Knights Terminators
Grey Knights Paladins

And these are JUST the kits that already exist.

MARK MY WORDS. By the end of the year, you'll have people whinging, malding, seething, and SCREAMING at GW to upscale "their chapter's" terminators.

And despite people saying "don't worry, you'll get your time in the sun" people will still whinge, mald, seeth, and scream, until every one of those above kits is either squatted or upscaled to the new Terminator size.

GW knows full well that they make the most money on space marines, and simply by upscaling and increasing the resolution on Terminators, they have over TWENTY kits they can re-do over the next few years to keep people buying Space Marines, and we've already seen that there's that new Terminator Rune-psyker that looks like a little more than some generic Librarian.

The floodgate has been opened.

Don't forget that if they alter the shoulder pads, they'll have to replace all of the Chapter upgrade sprues as well...
Or put out new Terminator-sprcific ones.

 Lord Damocles wrote:
Don't forget that if they alter the shoulder pads, they'll have to replace all of the Chapter upgrade sprues as well...
Or put out new Terminator-sprcific ones.

They may not alter the pads. Mark X pads are the same size as all firstborn pads and fully interchangeable. I’ve put Mark VI pads on an intercessor and they look just fine.

Wow, I haven't been this excited in a long time. While 9th Edition had some improvements compared to 8th, they went way too far with all the subfaction rules, warlord traits, artefacts and especially stratagems. It was such a pain to arrange a simple, casual game because of the bloat. I don't think I've played a single one with my friend where we didn't forget about at least a few rules or strategems...

Here's hoping 10th will be fairly streamlined and balanced. Still, I'm really curious what will happen to all the "range-rotated" units and wargear options that aren't in the boxes. You'd better use this opportunity to convert the rest of Drukhari range to plastic, GW, and I'm still waiting for plastic Vect on his Dais of Destruction

 JohnnyHell wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

 JohnnyHell wrote:

Boosykes wrote:
Hate to say it but new terminators will be 3 to a box.

Not remotely any chance of this. As much chance as The Old World being 15mm.

How many terminators are in the Custodes box again? Not saying it will be three, but to say there isn't a remote chance is nonsensical.

By that logic Termagants could be 3 to a squad, because they also are entirely different models to a classic Terminator with different squad org, just as any Custodes models are. Terminators have 30+ years of squad size and load out precedent.

Great use of reductio ad absurdum. Same you didn't have a better argument, that say focused on relative model size, battlefield role etc.

drbored wrote:


Here's what we can likely look forward to:

Terminator Captain
Terminator Librarian
Both included in the new starter per rumors
Terminator Chaplain
Would be nice after 2 limited release plastics
Terminator Ancient
Currently limited to Space Marine Heroes 2 for a generic one
Terminators (ranged)
we have seen a basic loadout and assault cannon
Terminators (melee)
would be nice for a proper seperate kit with running legs

Deathwatch Terminators
Not currently a unique kit, just an upgrade sprue for generic terminators

Belial
would make sense to get an update alongside deathwing, or GW could prioritize Samael and Ravenwing going over to primaris tech.
Deathwing Terminators
Deathwing Knights
[B]Shared kit

Logan Grimnar
seems low on the list to update since his sleigh kit came along
Arjac Rockfist
Njal Stormcaller
Both are newer sculpts, but of the two, Njal seems more likely
Wolf Guard Terminators
Maybe like Chaos have subfactions use variant TDA, make them into upscale and modified Cataphractii?

Lysander (fyi, already gone from GW site)

Blood Angels Terminator Librarian
Blood Angels Terminators (melee)
Like Wolves, maybe use variant armor? Tartaros would fit BA pretty well, like how it is a base for thousand sons scarab occult

Kaldor Draigo
Grey Knights Brother Captain
Grey Knights Terminator Librarian
Grey Knights Terminators
Grey Knights Paladins
GK librarian model is just the basic SM terminator. A proper clampack generic Grandmaster/ Brother Captain would be nice. Terminators and Paladins are a shared kit. And the Dreadknight pilot is a terminator as well. Maybe a redo of that kit to look more like the concept art? But GK terminators still look amazing- they would benefit more from either rescaled basic troops to match the new Crowe, or new kits period like a unique GK Dreadnought

Notes in bold

Dreadknight concept art? Where can we find that?

 Malika2 wrote:
Dreadknight concept art? Where can we find that?

Well, not exactly concept art, but there is a greyscale image on page 4 of the 5th Edition GK codex of a dreadknight that is more compact, with the legs of the operator integrated into the suits legs and a few other changes that make it look like a proper exoskeleton rather than a big suit that the GK is riding on the front of.

Edit: Found it

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
Dreadknight concept art? Where can we find that?

Well, not exactly concept art, but there is a greyscale image on page 4 of the 5th Edition GK codex of a dreadknight that is more compact, with the legs of the operator integrated into the suits legs and a few other changes that make it look like a proper exoskeleton rather than a big suit that the GK is riding on the front of.

Edit: Found it

That's basically the sisters warsuit design. The model ended up a lot bigger than that in proportion to the wearer though, so perhaps it was drawn when they wanted it as a dreadnought equivalent but was subsequently upscaled to a knight equivalent.

there's no way you could incorporate the current wearer's legs into the thighs of the suit and still have it stride correctly without the wearer doing the splits to try and contort correctly...

 Hellebore wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 Malika2 wrote:
Dreadknight concept art? Where can we find that?

Well, not exactly concept art, but there is a greyscale image on page 4 of the 5th Edition GK codex of a dreadknight that is more compact, with the legs of the operator integrated into the suits legs and a few other changes that make it look like a proper exoskeleton rather than a big suit that the GK is riding on the front of.

Edit: Found it

Spoiler:

That's basically the sisters warsuit design. The model ended up a lot bigger than that in proportion to the wearer though, so perhaps it was drawn when they wanted it as a dreadnought equivalent but was subsequently upscaled to a knight equivalent.

there's no way you could incorporate the current wearer's legs into the thighs of the suit and still have it stride correctly without the wearer doing the splits to try and contort correctly...

It's 40k, sawing of the wearer's legs and replacing them with bionics that can be taken off when needing to pilot a dreadknight is a perfectly viable solution...

Tsagualsa wrote:


It's 40k, sawing of the wearer's legs and replacing them with bionics that can be taken off when needing to pilot a dreadknight is a perfectly viable solution...

If only, that would have been a fantastic concept. Also background wise. Do they wait until the correct candidate comes back legless from the latest mission, or do they pull straws before battle. Everyone dreading that they are next to get amputated. Pun intended. But alas, we got baby carriers. Nothing beats the good old forever box so far. Well maybe OG Penitent Engines and Arco-Flagellant, that is.

Honestly my worry is that GW has zero faith in keeping anything they say. They say free rules, but they said that with 9th too and the free rules were the most basic, almost useless on their own. They say indexes will be free, but we know they're going to go back to the codex model and then remove the free rules. They talk about streamlining but the real question will be if they go back on that with codexes like they did in 9th. The core of 9th was fine. It was the bloat of stratagems and secondary objectives that ruined it IMHO.

Basically I'm optimistic but GW has lied constantly about this so I have no reason to think this time will be any different

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly my worry is that GW has zero faith in keeping anything they say. They say free rules, but they said that with 9th too and the free rules were the most basic, almost useless on their own. They say indexes will be free, but we know they're going to go back to the codex model and then remove the free rules. They talk about streamlining but the real question will be if they go back on that with codexes like they did in 9th. The core of 9th was fine. It was the bloat of stratagems and secondary objectives that ruined it IMHO.

Basically I'm optimistic but GW has lied constantly about this so I have no reason to think this time will be any different

I fear that bloat returning is just the circle of life for GW products: they hamper themselves too much at the beginning of the edition, then slowly add stuff, exceptions and exceptions to the exceptions until they need to raze it again. It will probably be something like sticking to the letter of 'no more stratagem bloat' by having less stratagems, but not to the spirit by having bloat like IG 'orders', the 'phase' stuff like doctrines etc., alternate army rules and so on instead. But who knows, maybe they'll surprise us all.

Here's hoping they learned from the 9th edition experience along with how other games are handling expanding their model range. Don't pile up, spread out. Rather than adding more rules on top of existing rules, make new options aside the existing options.

All your army rules will fit on a two-page spread. So you might get four different sets of Army Rules for Space Marines, Space Marines 1st Company, Dark Angels, and Deathwing. They have a few different options for things like Warlord Traits, Relics, Stratagems and possible unit restrictions. You never have to balance adding new rules to a faction and hope they don't overpower another faction because you are balancing whole packages of rules against each other.

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly my worry is that GW has zero faith in keeping anything they say. They say free rules, but they said that with 9th too and the free rules were the most basic, almost useless on their own. They say indexes will be free, but we know they're going to go back to the codex model and then remove the free rules. They talk about streamlining but the real question will be if they go back on that with codexes like they did in 9th. The core of 9th was fine. It was the bloat of stratagems and secondary objectives that ruined it IMHO.

Basically I'm optimistic but GW has lied constantly about this so I have no reason to think this time will be any different

They said this about Age of Sigmar, too. Look how that turned out.

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly my worry is that GW has zero faith in keeping anything they say. They say free rules, but they said that with 9th too and the free rules were the most basic, almost useless on their own. They say indexes will be free, but we know they're going to go back to the codex model and then remove the free rules. They talk about streamlining but the real question will be if they go back on that with codexes like they did in 9th. The core of 9th was fine. It was the bloat of stratagems and secondary objectives that ruined it IMHO.

Basically I'm optimistic but GW has lied constantly about this so I have no reason to think this time will be any different

Well, 8th started with standard indexes, and as soon as the codexes came out, it created waves of power creep. It also started with core strategems, accessible to everyone, and then each codex army started getting strategems, some of which had things like shooting twice in the same shooting phase.

I don't even care if it's free or not, the primary issue is that releasing waves of codexes separately creates a huge imbalance, as you have armies with codexes going up against index armies. A uniform index, especially a digital index, would allow them to create updates on a consistent basis so that all armies are simultaneously on the same page. To be fair, they have already been going this route with the army balance dataslates, which affected all armies and were released at the same time. I think they realize this is a problem. I think they realize the mistakes they made. Commitment is another thing entirely, though.

I think it comes down to their bottom line, and how the market responds to this business model. If it brings people back in and has them buying kits and attending tourneys, they'll probably shy away from the old model. If it falls on its face and revenues drop, they'll likely reevaluate. I could certainly see them hyping the "return of your favorite codexes!" down the line if they are grasping for a hype train.

Marines are the most bloated faction. They can't possibly simplify them with all the subfactions and successors.

 TedNugent wrote:

Wayniac wrote:
Honestly my worry is that GW has zero faith in keeping anything they say. They say free rules, but they said that with 9th too and the free rules were the most basic, almost useless on their own. They say indexes will be free, but we know they're going to go back to the codex model and then remove the free rules. They talk about streamlining but the real question will be if they go back on that with codexes like they did in 9th. The core of 9th was fine. It was the bloat of stratagems and secondary objectives that ruined it IMHO.

Basically I'm optimistic but GW has lied constantly about this so I have no reason to think this time will be any different

Well, 8th started with standard indexes, and as soon as the codexes came out, it created waves of power creep. It also started with core strategems, accessible to everyone, and then each codex army started getting strategems, some of which had things like shooting twice in the same shooting phase.

I don't even care if it's free or not, the primary issue is that releasing waves of codexes separately creates a huge imbalance, as you have armies with codexes going up against index armies. A uniform index, especially a digital index, would allow them to create updates on a consistent basis so that all armies are simultaneously on the same page. To be fair, they have already been going this route with the army balance dataslates, which affected all armies and were released at the same time. I think they realize this is a problem. I think they realize the mistakes they made. Commitment is another thing entirely, though.

I think it comes down to their bottom line, and how the market responds to this business model. If it brings people back in and has them buying kits and attending tourneys, they'll probably shy away from the old model. If it falls on its face and revenues drop, they'll likely reevaluate. I could certainly see them hyping the "return of your favorite codexes!" down the line if they are grasping for a hype train.

I expect ( read : hope ) that indexes won't be bare bones. Everyone should have complete army rules with their "base" trait, relics, strats, etc.

The purpose of the codexes will be to give more 'swap in' army rules. So perhaps my index will let me play straightforward TS and the codex will give me Warpmeld and maybe a handful of Cults. I imagine the number of relics is going to go way down, since it wouldn't make sense for a Cult to have 6 relics.

The data sheet for termagants is already more interesting than the current one. Is that because it's an index datasheet or a codex one? Will index datasheets have barebones abilities?

8th indexes had so very little to them so when codexes hit the creep was readily apparent. 9th became so broad with choice that the creep was readily apparent.

If stratagems exist for all and the mechanics ( as per termagants ) exist then the only thing GW does with codexes is provide more alternatives. If, as you say, it isn't lucrative then surely they could switch tack so hopefully the community puts their money where their mouth is -- if GW delivers like we hope.

Oh yeah.

More unit fluff per Codex, thank you please.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Oh yeah.

More unit fluff per Codex, thank you please.

I REALLY hope that comes back.

I sorely missed it in the last edition

Hopefully replacing the pages of stratagems

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Marines are the most bloated faction. They can't possibly simplify them with all the subfactions and successors.

Depends how they approach this "two pages for your army rules" thing - subfaction-specific units will get their own datasheets, after all. In theory, they could do a set of army rules sheets, where you get "Space Marines", "Space Marines (Blood Angels)", "Space Marines (Dark Angels)", "Space Marines (Space Wolves)", "Space Marines (Ultramarines)", etc, where the two pages cover the core SM rules, plus whatever is produced at the army rules level for each Chapter.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Marines are the most bloated faction. They can't possibly simplify them with all the subfactions and successors.

Depends how they approach this "two pages for your army rules" thing - subfaction-specific units will get their own datasheets, after all. In theory, they could do a set of army rules sheets, where you get "Space Marines", "Space Marines (Blood Angels)", "Space Marines (Dark Angels)", "Space Marines (Space Wolves)", "Space Marines (Ultramarines)", etc, where the two pages cover the core SM rules, plus whatever is produced at the army rules level for each Chapter.

Several rumourpersons said that 'Chapter supplements' for various SM chapters had been originally intended for 9th and were held of for 10th edition; i strongly suspect that these will be just that: special units, two-page 'army rules' and an assortment of relics and stuff for these chapters.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Marines are the most bloated faction. They can't possibly simplify them with all the subfactions and successors.

Depends how they approach this "two pages for your army rules" thing - subfaction-specific units will get their own datasheets, after all. In theory, they could do a set of army rules sheets, where you get "Space Marines", "Space Marines (Blood Angels)", "Space Marines (Dark Angels)", "Space Marines (Space Wolves)", "Space Marines (Ultramarines)", etc, where the two pages cover the core SM rules, plus whatever is produced at the army rules level for each Chapter.

There are two good approaches:
2 pages for space marines, with no special rules for anybody
OR
2 pages per chapter, with no base <space marines> rules for anybody, and you can't double stack. You use rules for <chapter> and that's it.

Any other approach restarts the bloat cycle.

Voss wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Marines are the most bloated faction. They can't possibly simplify them with all the subfactions and successors.

Depends how they approach this "two pages for your army rules" thing - subfaction-specific units will get their own datasheets, after all. In theory, they could do a set of army rules sheets, where you get "Space Marines", "Space Marines (Blood Angels)", "Space Marines (Dark Angels)", "Space Marines (Space Wolves)", "Space Marines (Ultramarines)", etc, where the two pages cover the core SM rules, plus whatever is produced at the army rules level for each Chapter.

There are two good approaches:
2 pages for space marines, with no special rules for anybody
OR
2 pages per chapter, with no base <space marines> rules for anybody, and you can't double stack. You use rules for <chapter> and that's it.

Any other approach restarts the bloat cycle.

I support either but prefer the latter.

I'd expect that the default space marine rules will be 'codex-compliant chapter' / ultramarines successor. Then you can swap that out for other chapters or sub-groups like Deathwing & Ravenwing.

 xttz wrote:
I'd expect that the default space marine rules will be 'codex-compliant chapter' / ultramarines successor. Then you can swap that out for other chapters or sub-groups like Deathwing & Ravenwing.

I'd expect successor chapter = you pick one parent, similar to now. Known successor has to pick daddy chapter, unknown has free range. But picking isn't optional.

Codex compliant is meaningless, since it includes DA, Salamanders, and Iron Hands, all whom aren't really by formal organization charts, but it never matters on the table. Then there are the fetish chapters (BA, White Scars and Raven Guard) that don't want to be codex compliant but are on paper. Non-codex is really only woofs and templars, and really, actually codex compliant in theory, org charts AND game reality is just Fists and Ultras.

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

drbored wrote:


Here's what we can likely look forward to:

Terminator Captain
Terminator Librarian
Both included in the new starter per rumors
Terminator Chaplain
Would be nice after 2 limited release plastics
Terminator Ancient
Currently limited to Space Marine Heroes 2 for a generic one
Terminators (ranged)
we have seen a basic loadout and assault cannon
Terminators (melee)
would be nice for a proper seperate kit with running legs

Deathwatch Terminators
Not currently a unique kit, just an upgrade sprue for generic terminators

Belial
would make sense to get an update alongside deathwing, or GW could prioritize Samael and Ravenwing going over to primaris tech.
Deathwing Terminators
Deathwing Knights
[B]Shared kit

Logan Grimnar
seems low on the list to update since his sleigh kit came along
Arjac Rockfist
Njal Stormcaller
Both are newer sculpts, but of the two, Njal seems more likely
Wolf Guard Terminators
Maybe like Chaos have subfactions use variant TDA, make them into upscale and modified Cataphractii?

Lysander (fyi, already gone from GW site)

Blood Angels Terminator Librarian
Blood Angels Terminators (melee)
Like Wolves, maybe use variant armor? Tartaros would fit BA pretty well, like how it is a base for thousand sons scarab occult

Kaldor Draigo
Grey Knights Brother Captain
Grey Knights Terminator Librarian
Grey Knights Terminators
Grey Knights Paladins
GK librarian model is just the basic SM terminator. A proper clampack generic Grandmaster/ Brother Captain would be nice. Terminators and Paladins are a shared kit. And the Dreadknight pilot is a terminator as well. Maybe a redo of that kit to look more like the concept art? But GK terminators still look amazing- they would benefit more from either rescaled basic troops to match the new Crowe, or new kits period like a unique GK Dreadnought

Notes in bold

ty for the corrections and notes.

I would NOT be surprised if this means new Tartaros and Cataphractii for both 30k and 40k. As for the GK, they need... something. They haven't gotten anything except a handful of named characters since 6th edition, right up there with Dark Eldar. Those two are on my short list of factions I hope get some love in the new edition. Updating GK terminators to the new scale would be a simple way to do that.

As it is, that's still a ton of Terminator-related kits that could be updated by GW to give us plenty of space marine kits to fill up the next edition or two.

The other big problem is if they continue to do the codex nonsense which we all know they're going to and they've said as much there's what 24 factions? Even if they released one every month You're looking at two years before everyone has one and by that point you only have a year left of the edition before the next one comes out.

The codex model is not sustainable and until they realize that I don't think they're going to learn anything and that's not even getting into the inevitable power creep or once they're done of 10 codexes The 11th one inexplicably changes the direction of how there designing and then all the future ones follow that but all the ones before are now using an outdated design pattern.

What they really need to do is make the indexes complete and then if they do a codex add something flavorful like armies of renown or something like that. You would still have the issue of codex creep but at least it would be optional stuff

Well, ironically, if they wouldn't push a new edition every 3 years, then they'd have plenty of time to update all the codexes within the first 2 and still have 2+ years to enjoy them, give us campaign books and supplements, and try to actually balance the game...

But that doesn't sell books. They don't get money when people play games, they get money when people buy the books to play the games.

Nothing is going to change in that regard unless people stop buying the codexes.