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Tsagualsa wrote:
Remember [Heavy] works the other way around now and gives you a +1 to Hit if you stayed stationary instead of giving you -1 if you moved.

And it's a 24" range gun, meaning that you might have to move to get it into position. Again, it's objectively worse than it was before, so what purpose within a squad does it fulfil that other heavy weapons can't already do?


(Aside: Autocannons at S9? Holy gak... )

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Plenty of shots still, and you can still hit on 3's if you don't move with it, probably gonna be nasty with dark pacts

Same amount of shots, but hits less. So it's objectively worse, thus my question still stands.

you're objectively wrong tho....

it still hits on 3's if you don't move and 4's if you move just like it does in 9th

And you didnt have autowounding or exploding 6's before

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
you're objectively wrong tho....

No. It hits less often than other heavy weapons, so what role does it serve?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
it still hits on 3's, oh and you didnt have autowounding or exploding 6's before

But other weapons get that, not just the Reaper, so, again, why would I bring that when I can bring something that hits more often with better stats?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
you're objectively wrong tho....

No. It hits less often than other heavy weapons, so what role does it serve?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
it still hits on 3's, oh and you didnt have autowounding or exploding 6's before

But other weapons get that, not just the Reaper, so, again, why would I bring that when I can bring something that hits more often with better stats?

The autocannon is being overlooked that it's a heavy that hits on 3's I think is your point here, but the chaincannon kills more gaunts etc than the autocannon does still as an example.

because it has more shots than the other ones, which benefit more from dark pacts.

we also know nothing about the points yet so that might be yet another reason to bring it.

Chaincannon is finally a dedicated anti-chaff gun instead of a "good into everything" gun

Also, take a fething chill pill holy....

Domandi wrote:

Boosykes wrote:
So far chaos rules look the worst out of what been previewed and space marines look the best.

Lame. Another edition of marine spank here we go.

What makes you say that? They look amazing. Sure the legionaries are basic, but they are supposed to be. They are the "grunts". However, they also get reroll melee wound 1's(all wounds on objectives) and have the chance at either exploding 6's or auto wounds on 6's. They even have the option to reroll the dark pact test. Obliterator weapons look nasty and the helldrake flamer is scary.

Well lots of things really icons can't be taken by most heavy hitters in the army withought them you have a 28% chance of taking mortal wounds. What wepons will be buffed by one of those buffs? Certainly not bolter as the math on the improvment to bolter is neglegible. Then you have the fact that the squad size is 10 max on a battling squad so that tells you the benifits for risking mortals on most squads will be very limited.

So you will be rolling for mortal Wounds often on small squads that dont benifit greatly from the risk and a large portion of your units will have a 28% chance of taking mortals as they won't have access to icons.

And the 28% chance on things like obliterators and possesed is the hopefully outlook as honestly they probably won't even have access to the ability.

Then you have space marines. You point at it and they feth it ability.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Also, take a fething chill pill holy....

No I don't think I will.

I'm tired of having the options for my armies stripped away little by little. When Lightning Claws went away in Raptor and Chosen squads, everyone said it was no big deal. Now Power Fists are gone as individual items. Combi-Weapons are gone. Psychic Powers are just glorified "weird" guns that are unique to specific psykers. And there's a weird disconnect between what should be at the core of an army (Oaths of Moment vs Doctrines and Dedications to the Chaos Gods vs Pacts that hurt you).

When are you going to start caring when they take something you like or care about away from your army?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Also, take a fething chill pill holy....

No I don't think I will.

I'm tired of having the options for my armies stripped away little by little. When Lightning Claws went away in Raptor and Chosen squads, everyone said it was no big deal. Now Power Fists are gone as individual items. Combi-Weapons are gone. Psychic Powers are just glorified "weird" guns that are unique to specific psykers. And there's a weird disconnect between what should be at the core of an army (Oaths of Moment vs Doctrines and Dedications to the Chaos Gods vs Pacts that hurt you).

When are you going to start caring when they take something you like or care about away from your army?

You have some good points here but the game is growing faster then ever before especially for space marines and some amount ofn consolidating needs to happen at some point wouldn't you agree?

Now your point on the dark pact I kinda agree with but mostly becuse I think it will end up being incredibly weak.

If not consolidation than what would you prefer to see done about the frankly rediculas number of option especially for space marines?

ERJAK wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Look at that fething mess of the datasheet for Legionaires. GW legit didn't learn anything from 9th, and y'all said that something like Combi-Weapons being consolidated would help make things simple and less convoluted!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

I don't know why you're so desperate for every squad to only have one type of weapon. That seems really boring. Just because your eyes unfocus when there's more than 3 lines of text, doesn't mean we should remove customization from the game.

No, it's that your "one of everything!!!1!" squads look terrible on the table and do terribly in the game. Fluff bunnies rejoice!

Necrons tomorrow instead of Blood Angels means the Faction Focus timeline leak isn't accurate.

I'm looking forward to seeing Death Guard, and it looks like we will get just one Chaos Faction a week.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Look at that fething mess of the datasheet for Legionaires. GW legit didn't learn anything from 9th, and y'all said that something like Combi-Weapons being consolidated would help make things simple and less convoluted!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The datasheet is pretty simple tho..?
And the consolidation on it makes it actually parseable, imagine if all the melee weapons were standalone options like before instead of the consolidated version now

Yes you're quite right. Chainsword, Power Weapon X and Y, Power Fist and Chainaxe takes up so much room WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THE WEAPON STATS AVAILABLE ANYWAY ON THE CARD.

Boosykes wrote:


Then you have space marines. You point at it and they feth it ability.

And the new chaos strat on nurgle models basically negates oath of moment unless you are within 12" (And if you have all your units that close the unit was screwed anyway tbh).


On another topic, noticed that Abby does not have a faction keyword of Black Legion unlike Rouboute having Ultramarines.
Assume that will mean he can be fielded much more flexibly

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
you're objectively wrong tho....

No. It hits less often than other heavy weapons, so what role does it serve?

What heavy 7 or more shot bs3+ they can take?

6 shot is at best even or worse at hit count when stationary.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
Also, take a fething chill pill holy....

No I don't think I will.

I'm tired of having the options for my armies stripped away little by little. When Lightning Claws went away in Raptor and Chosen squads, everyone said it was no big deal. Now Power Fists are gone as individual items. Combi-Weapons are gone. Psychic Powers are just glorified "weird" guns that are unique to specific psykers. And there's a weird disconnect between what should be at the core of an army (Oaths of Moment vs Doctrines and Dedications to the Chaos Gods vs Pacts that hurt you).

When are you going to start caring when they take something you like or care about away from your army?

They took my spells, but seem to be giving lots of other more interesting things to do. I can't tell you how I'll feel about all of it until I see it come together, but for the moment I am mentally engaged and I don't feel like they're missing out on what makes 40K unique.

EviscerationPlague wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
HAHAHAHAHAHA

Look at that fething mess of the datasheet for Legionaires. GW legit didn't learn anything from 9th, and y'all said that something like Combi-Weapons being consolidated would help make things simple and less convoluted!

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The datasheet is pretty simple tho..?
And the consolidation on it makes it actually parseable, imagine if all the melee weapons were standalone options like before instead of the consolidated version now

Yes you're quite right. Chainsword, Power Weapon X and Y, Power Fist and Chainaxe takes up so much room WHEN THEY DON'T EVEN INCLUDE ALL THE WEAPON STATS AVAILABLE ANYWAY ON THE CARD.

Well looking back over the last 4 years we've seen:

close combat weapon
chainsword
chainaxe
power sword
power maul
power axe
power fist
chain fist
lightning claw
(include the eviscerator thingy here)

Become:
close combat weapon
chainsword
accursed weapon
Heavy melee weapon

So a 60% reduction of rules options but no reduction in modelling options. That is 100% simpler, more condensed and easier to balance and invalidates nothing apart from maybe twin LC on the champ?

Dudeface wrote:

So a 60% reduction of rules options but no reduction in modelling options.

its a 60% rules reduction for an infinity% increase in modeling options. You can now have your dudes wield any kind weapons and still have rules for them.

A Chapter that only uses polearms/swords/rapiers/zweihanders/grots/other marines as their weapons is now supported by the rules

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yeah, I love how the "b-b-b-but he's probably still competitive in-game, maybe he's 200 points!" is only point being made against those complaining Abaddon's stats got nerfed.

Some of us actually care about the lore and aren't interested in playing DotA on the tabletop. Why the need to defend GW here? It's just objectively weird that Abaddon is (probably) less tough than a marine wearing Gravis armor.

You're still thinking along one axis.

If Abaddon can deepstrike with terminators and be untargetable outside of 12" then should he really be T9? Does T6 actually matter for things that are going to eventually target him?

He also still beats the crap out of most things.

You are talking past me. I don't care how competitive Abaddon turns out to be with this profile. I care that he is T5, which does not seem reflective of the lore. Nothing you said addresses that.

tneva82 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yeah, I love how the "b-b-b-but he's probably still competitive in-game, maybe he's 200 points!" is only point being made against those complaining Abaddon's stats got nerfed.

Some of us actually care about the lore and aren't interested in playing DotA on the tabletop. Why the need to defend GW here? It's just objectively weird that Abaddon is (probably) less tough than a marine wearing Gravis armor.

So gravis has 9w and 4++?

do either of those values come after the letter "T" on the Gravis datasheet?

It will be interesting to see how he compares in toughness/durability to a chaos lord in TDA armor with a mark of nurgle. He should be at least that good

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You are talking past me. I don't care how competitive Abaddon turns out to be with this profile. I care that he is T5, which does not seem reflective of the lore. Nothing you said addresses that.

If every named character recieved ingame rules to represent their plot armour from the books they'd be T9 W50 with a 1-wound-per-phase damage cap.

Edit: Except of course for the Angron / Swarmlord types who respawn for free

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:

Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Yeah, I love how the "b-b-b-but he's probably still competitive in-game, maybe he's 200 points!" is only point being made against those complaining Abaddon's stats got nerfed.

Some of us actually care about the lore and aren't interested in playing DotA on the tabletop. Why the need to defend GW here? It's just objectively weird that Abaddon is (probably) less tough than a marine wearing Gravis armor.

You're still thinking along one axis.

If Abaddon can deepstrike with terminators and be untargetable outside of 12" then should he really be T9? Does T6 actually matter for things that are going to eventually target him?

He also still beats the crap out of most things.

You are talking past me. I don't care how competitive Abaddon turns out to be with this profile. I care that he is T5, which does not seem reflective of the lore. Nothing you said addresses that.

I was unaware the 'lore' put a number on his toughness value.

 xttz wrote:


If every named character recieved ingame rules to represent their plot armour from the books they'd be T9 W50 with a 1-wound-per-phase damage cap.

Yeah, this

As soon as the argument becomes about exact numeric values, it stops being a lore discussion. Especially if its about which one is somehow 'objectively correct.'

 xttz wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You are talking past me. I don't care how competitive Abaddon turns out to be with this profile. I care that he is T5, which does not seem reflective of the lore. Nothing you said addresses that.

If every named character recieved ingame rules to represent their plot armour from the books they'd be T9 W50 with a 1-wound-per-phase damage cap.

Edit: Except of course for the Angron / Swarmlord types who respawn for free

I think people were spoiled a bit with some of the crazy datasheets for 9th. For two decades Abaddon was T4 with 3 or 4 wounds ( and eternal warrior ).

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 xttz wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:


You are talking past me. I don't care how competitive Abaddon turns out to be with this profile. I care that he is T5, which does not seem reflective of the lore. Nothing you said addresses that.

If every named character recieved ingame rules to represent their plot armour from the books they'd be T9 W50 with a 1-wound-per-phase damage cap.

Edit: Except of course for the Angron / Swarmlord types who respawn for free

I think people were spoiled a bit with some of the crazy datasheets for 9th. For two decades Abaddon was T4 with 3 or 4 wounds ( and eternal warrior ).

And kicked ass!

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Necrons tomorrow instead of Blood Angels means the Faction Focus timeline leak isn't accurate.

The best part was that was never a "Faction Focus timeline". It was literally them just showing the cover to every set of cards available on release. They just happened to mention the Faction Focuses while it was on screen and the internet did what it does.

Voss wrote:
I was unaware the 'lore' put a number on his toughness value.

Don't you remember that iconic scene?

Dorn: "Vulkan, what does the scouter say about his power toughness?"
Vulkan "It's over six!" *crushes device*
Dorn: "WHAT?! SIX?!

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Necrons tomorrow instead of Blood Angels means the Faction Focus timeline leak isn't accurate.

The best part was that was never a "Faction Focus timeline". It was literally them just showing the cover to every set of cards available on release. They just happened to mention the Faction Focuses while it was on screen and the internet did what it does.

Ah. Wondered where the order was mentioned. Seen that referenced couple times.

Lol.

Okay then, let's have Morty be T3 with a 0+ and 90W. That should be plenty tough since apparently none of this matters.

I look forward to Fabius Bile or Urien Rakarth or somebody being T6 and you guys not having any issue with him being tougher than Abaddon.

(Oh no, they probably won't even have rules for Urien Rakarth... )

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Okay then, let's have Morty be T3 with a 0+ and 90W. That should be plenty tough since apparently none of this matters.

I look forward to Fabius Bile or Urien Rakarth or somebody being T6 and you guys not having any issue with him being tougher than Abaddon.

(Oh no, they probably won't even have rules for Urien Rakarth... )

Dude. Maybe take a moment and stop making stuff up to make yourself fell better about your frustration. If Fabius Bile has T6 and W9 then maybe we'll have a chat, but you and I both know that day won't come.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Okay then, let's have Morty be T3 with a 0+ and 90W. That should be plenty tough since apparently none of this matters.

I look forward to Fabius Bile or Urien Rakarth or somebody being T6 and you guys not having any issue with him being tougher than Abaddon.

(Oh no, they probably won't even have rules for Urien Rakarth... )

Dude. Maybe take a moment and stop making stuff up to make yourself fell better about your frustration. If Fabius Bile has T6 and W9 then maybe we'll have a chat, but you and I both know that day won't come.

I kinda hope it does now, I'm enjoying the in-flight entertainment of people needlessly losing their gak and making absurd claims based on near fantasy.

 Gene St. Ealer wrote:
Okay then, let's have Morty be T3 with a 0+ and 90W. That should be plenty tough since apparently none of this matters.

I look forward to Fabius Bile or Urien Rakarth or somebody being T6 and you guys not having any issue with him being tougher than Abaddon.

(Oh no, they probably won't even have rules for Urien Rakarth... )

Ah yes let's have a fit without even full picture. That works.

Or we could be adults and see at least concrete picture before claiming world is ending.

Guess too much to ask.

I didn't make anything up and I'm not frustrated. I posited an absurd statline (Morty's) that one could see as balanced or even strong (well, maybe I won't go that far) but out-of-whack with relative norms. Based on the arguments I'm seeing in this thread, most of you would be okay with that if the sum total of what makes up Morty's tankiness makes him, well, tanky.

And fine, maybe Bile's not a great example (though who knows). What if Marneus Calgar is T6 9W? That seems plenty likely. Is that okay?

I'm not upset, you guys just aren't engaging with my arguments.