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Comparing Fire Prisms to Meltas? Thats like saying Guardians suck because Marines can carry Lascannons...

CWE have Fusion weapons, which are what compare to Melta. Fire Prisms are more related to Demolishers or Volcano Canons.

Bharring wrote:
Comparing Fire Prisms to Meltas? Thats like saying Guardians suck because Marines can carry Lascannons...

CWE have Fusion weapons, which are what compare to Melta. Fire Prisms are more related to Demolishers or Volcano Canons.

It's a concern that Sisters lack anti-tank given their limited selections, because the Exorcist doesn't evoke the same emotions as S18 AP4 D6 even though it can...fire indirect, get +1 to hit for stationary, +1 to hit for wounded, +1 to wound for below half ( assuming the battleshock language transfers ), and has D6+2 attacks instead of just 2 and it can still use miracle dice on damage that gets through.

That said Sisters should not be required to have Exorcists for anti-tank so we need to see the rest of the army to determine how they might handle it without them.

Voss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Interesting that the article didn’t even say a word about Harlequins.

Is it interesting? It mentioned aspect warriors exactly once, and didn't mention wraith constructs, jet bikes or the Avatar either.
These teasers are very focused and haven't touched on 90+% of any army.

Yes, because Harlies are basically a separate faction within the Eldar book. Unlike aspects, wraiths, Ynnari, etc, they don’t use the standard rules. So are harlequins now going to use strands of fate? Doubt it, but it would have been nice to at least have a mention of what they do get, even if they didn’t explicitly show the rule.

 bullyboy wrote:

Voss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Interesting that the article didn’t even say a word about Harlequins.

Is it interesting? It mentioned aspect warriors exactly once, and didn't mention wraith constructs, jet bikes or the Avatar either.
These teasers are very focused and haven't touched on 90+% of any army.

Yes, because Harlies are basically a separate faction within the Eldar book. Unlike aspects, wraiths, Ynnari, etc, they don’t use the standard rules. So are harlequins now going to use strands of fate? Doubt it, but it would have been nice to at least have a mention of what they do get, even if they didn’t explicitly show the rule.

Ynnari didn't use the standard rules either, until the 9th edition codex, where they essentially became a de facto craftworld.

I could easily see clowns with Strands of Fate and their own detachment rule (or if they're in a mixed army, a general detachment rule). Or in the codex, their own faction rule (with restrictions on what else they can take).
I think keeping Faction sacrosanct and Detachment mutable is the more sensible decision, however. Saves on 'but what about my [faction], why aren't they special snowflakes' arguments down the line

Maybe sisters get a decent gun on their MBT that sucked until now?

Voss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:

Voss wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
Interesting that the article didn’t even say a word about Harlequins.

Is it interesting? It mentioned aspect warriors exactly once, and didn't mention wraith constructs, jet bikes or the Avatar either.
These teasers are very focused and haven't touched on 90+% of any army.

Yes, because Harlies are basically a separate faction within the Eldar book. Unlike aspects, wraiths, Ynnari, etc, they don’t use the standard rules. So are harlequins now going to use strands of fate? Doubt it, but it would have been nice to at least have a mention of what they do get, even if they didn’t explicitly show the rule.

Ynnari didn't use the standard rules either, until the 9th edition codex, where they essentially became a de facto craftworld.

I really hope Ynnari become their own thing again. As in, a 'faction' that all the eldar factions can make use of, rather than just being an Eldar subfaction.

Brickfix wrote:
Maybe sisters get a decent gun on their MBT that sucked until now?

I hope so. I really like how the Castigator looks and hate that it's basically useless to use.

I think Ynnari just need a complete re-imagining.

Which I don't think should be that difficult to do, but its unclear there's any incentive without a range of models to sell.

Tyel wrote:
I think Ynnari just need a complete re-imagining.

Which I don't think should be that difficult to do, but its unclear there's any incentive without a range of models to sell.

Some of it is not specific models to sell, but gateways into other ranges. Craftworld player grabs a box of dark Eldar, and vice versus.

I think it might be a little rough to try to keep their goal of “Everything on 2 pages” with such a disperate selection of units to pull from.

 Nevelon wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think Ynnari just need a complete re-imagining.

Which I don't think should be that difficult to do, but its unclear there's any incentive without a range of models to sell.

Some of it is not specific models to sell, but gateways into other ranges. Craftworld player grabs a box of dark Eldar, and vice versus.

I think it might be a little rough to try to keep their goal of “Everything on 2 pages” with such a disperate selection of units to pull from.

I think the best the Ynnari currently can hope for is to lay low for a while and get a proper treatment when GW has ressources and time to dedicate to them. Which could easily mean years of waiting, like the Dark Eldar before their range update, as GW seems reluctant to do anything for Eldar at all. Their time to shine will come eventually, the whole Vashtorr arc seems to point into that direction*, and a campaign centering around them, the Ynnari, Slaanesh and Fulgrim could be one of these end-of-the-edition multipart events GW now uses to advance the plot.


*Spoilers for AoO: Lion

tneva82 wrote:
Different datasheet, different powers.

Which isn't a good thing.

tneva82 wrote:
They could be eldrad locked though.

Which is worse.

Kind of odd to me that while everything is getting nerfs to saves, ballistic/weapon skill, and range, Eldar have stayed the same. Votann and Skitarii both lost a point in ballistics, Skitarii lost a point in their save, Guard and Sisters have lost a lot of range (Exorcist -12", Leman Russ -24", Volcano Cannon -24"). Meanwhile Fire Prisms maintained their range and Guardians maintained their base stat buffs they got in 9th.

Hopefully, this means that they are going a more elite army with them, but it just feels bad seeing stuff lose between 1/4 and 1/3 of its range (which Russes were 72" for as long as I can remember at least), while buffs that just came up in 9th were maintained.

 kurhanik wrote:
Kind of odd to me that while everything is getting nerfs to saves, ballistic/weapon skill, and range, Eldar have stayed the same. Votann and Skitarii both lost a point in ballistics, Skitarii lost a point in their save, Guard and Sisters have lost a lot of range (Exorcist -12", Leman Russ -24", Volcano Cannon -24"). Meanwhile Fire Prisms maintained their range and Guardians maintained their base stat buffs they got in 9th.

Hopefully, this means that they are going a more elite army with them, but it just feels bad seeing stuff lose between 1/4 and 1/3 of its range (which Russes were 72" for as long as I can remember at least), while buffs that just came up in 9th were maintained.

Eldar are meant to be more elite than base humans, I suspect you're outlining the intent there.

Guardians might have also gotten a pass from the neft bat to make them more appealing to take. Without mandatory troop taxes, would anyone take them in favor of spending points on the assorted specialists of the craftworld roster?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Bharring wrote:
Comparing Fire Prisms to Meltas? Thats like saying Guardians suck because Marines can carry Lascannons...

CWE have Fusion weapons, which are what compare to Melta. Fire Prisms are more related to Demolishers or Volcano Canons.

It's a concern that Sisters lack anti-tank given their limited selections, because the Exorcist doesn't evoke the same emotions as S18 AP4 D6 even though it can...fire indirect, get +1 to hit for stationary, +1 to hit for wounded, +1 to wound for below half ( assuming the battleshock language transfers ), and has D6+2 attacks instead of just 2 and it can still use miracle dice on damage that gets through.

That said Sisters should not be required to have Exorcists for anti-tank so we need to see the rest of the army to determine how they might handle it without them.

Eldar just get free rerolls if we're going to bring faction abilities into that. They don't even need to take damage. Weird direction to go.

The Exorcist isn't bad, but it also very much ISN'T ANTI-TANK. Being S10, Ap-2 and having a D6 shot roll means that it's going to be good at killing terminators or heavy intercessors. Anything bigger than that, it just doesn't have the punch for.

Outside of insane spike rolls (which, while very funny, aren't something you can build a list around) something like a land raider is going to laugh off an Exorcist before popping it like a balloon.

Again, this doesn't mean the FACTION won't be good. It's just irritating that we've seen all but ONE of our ranged weapons and none of them are any good at hurting vehicles.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
Maybe sisters get a decent gun on their MBT that sucked until now?

I hope so. I really like how the Castigator looks and hate that it's basically useless to use.

Especially the battle cannon, which does less damage even to ideal targets than a Twin Multimelta.

It's a worse MBT than our Razorback equivalent.

ERJAK wrote:
.
The Exorcist isn't bad, but it also very much ISN'T ANTI-TANK. Being S10, Ap-2 and having a D6 shot roll means that it's going to be good at killing terminators or heavy intercessors. Anything bigger than that, it just doesn't have the punch for.

Outside of insane spike rolls (which, while very funny, aren't something you can build a list around) something like a land raider is going to laugh off an Exorcist before popping it like a balloon.

Again, this doesn't mean the FACTION won't be good. It's just irritating that we've seen all but ONE of our ranged weapons and none of them are any good at hurting vehicles.

They're not as far removed as you want to represent. I know the below is unlikely for a few reasons, but never the less:

3 prisms into a t10 medium vehicle does ~18 damage. If we assume 1 unit of retributors = 1 prism in points (we honestly don't know, I suspect they'll be cheaper), 24 multi melta shots after moving, at max range is 14 damage. Get into melta range that's 22 damage, I know it's apples to oranges, but stop whining. They can deal with vehicles fine but through weight of fire.

 Nevelon wrote:

Tyel wrote:
I think Ynnari just need a complete re-imagining.

Which I don't think should be that difficult to do, but its unclear there's any incentive without a range of models to sell.

Some of it is not specific models to sell, but gateways into other ranges. Craftworld player grabs a box of dark Eldar, and vice versus.

I think it might be a little rough to try to keep their goal of “Everything on 2 pages” with such a disperate selection of units to pull from.

Usually it takes 2 pages just to explain their rules.

 Platuan4th wrote:

Brickfix wrote:
Maybe sisters get a decent gun on their MBT that sucked until now?

I hope so. I really like how the Castigator looks and hate that it's basically useless to use.

I think we'll probably see 2 rhinos dropping 4 MM shots out of the ports backed up by Castigator / Exorcist / fast melee.

One might scoff...MM rhinos? Absurd!

But, uhh, if you hurt them rhinos they gon' get mad. Go ahead. Give those MM bonuses. Eventually they'll dump those rhinos and either they deal with the lone MM sister here and there with +1 to hit and +1 to wound or they push up more miracle dice. And certainly they don't want to just shoot the backfield if they can't kill them since it will only make them stronger...

What is MBT?

Main Battle Tank. Aka a Tank that is tough and capable of destroying other tanks.

 nathan2004 wrote:
What is MBT?

Main battle tank. Pretty much means it's just meant to take hits and spit out dakka, not transport models or such.

So a Rhino or razerback would be more of an armored fighting vehicle or AFV. Think the difference between an American Abrhams vs a Bradley.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Weird that Skitarii get dropped to a 5+ save while Guardians retain a 4+.

I think the guardians carapace is meant to be better than guardsmen carapace which checks out, the skitarii armour is largely just standard human armour + a robe so 5+ seems ok with 6++ representing they have some disposable organs etc.

So that we're clear:
You're okay with the mesh armored Guardians(they don't have "carapace", which is a specific type of armor) having a 4+ save; which is the same as a Kasrkin or Scion; while not okay with Skitarii having a 4+ save despite wearing carapace armor+featuring bionics?

In the long run, it is what it is...but this whole thing is just weird. It feels like punishment for people abusing the Veteran Cohort and 20 model blobs.

Bionics gives a 6++.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Weird that Skitarii get dropped to a 5+ save while Guardians retain a 4+.

I think the guardians carapace is meant to be better than guardsmen carapace which checks out, the skitarii armour is largely just standard human armour + a robe so 5+ seems ok with 6++ representing they have some disposable organs etc.

So that we're clear:
You're okay with the mesh armored Guardians(they don't have "carapace", which is a specific type of armor) having a 4+ save; which is the same as a Kasrkin or Scion; while not okay with Skitarii having a 4+ save despite wearing carapace armor+featuring bionics?

In the long run, it is what it is...but this whole thing is just weird. It feels like punishment for people abusing the Veteran Cohort and 20 model blobs.

Bionics gives a 6++.

Since they appeared in 7th, Skitarii have been 4+ armor.
Dropping them to 5+, when relatively ordinary Guardfolk get a 4+, feels weird. They're the Ad Mech's troops-they should have REALLY good gear, including armor.

 JNAProductions wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Weird that Skitarii get dropped to a 5+ save while Guardians retain a 4+.

I think the guardians carapace is meant to be better than guardsmen carapace which checks out, the skitarii armour is largely just standard human armour + a robe so 5+ seems ok with 6++ representing they have some disposable organs etc.

So that we're clear:
You're okay with the mesh armored Guardians(they don't have "carapace", which is a specific type of armor) having a 4+ save; which is the same as a Kasrkin or Scion; while not okay with Skitarii having a 4+ save despite wearing carapace armor+featuring bionics?

In the long run, it is what it is...but this whole thing is just weird. It feels like punishment for people abusing the Veteran Cohort and 20 model blobs.

Bionics gives a 6++.

Since they appeared in 7th, Skitarii have been 4+ armor.
Dropping them to 5+, when relatively ordinary Guardfolk get a 4+, feels weird. They're the Ad Mech's troops-they should have REALLY good gear, including armor.

They're also highly replaceable, especially Vanguard who are walking cancer research projects.

Guardsmen are more replaceable.
They don’t have bionic upgrades or advanced gear.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Guardsmen are more replaceable.
They don’t have bionic upgrades or advanced gear.

The Imperium doesn't give Guardsmen guns that give them cancer.

The fact that vanguards save just as much as a guard doesn't mean that they have the same armor.
It simply means that it isn't good enough to be considered as an armor of the next level.

So far the 4+ armors have been the Votan and Aeldari ones, which were both on a very different level compared to flak armor.

And then for a 3+ you need a power armor.

Also, regarding the shooting it is clear that GW is trying to push elite units to have elite stats. This obviously means using all that unused design space which were the stats lower than 3+. So they are pushing non elite units into the 4+ bracket (votan and skitari are not elite by 40K standards), while reserving the 3+ only for those profiles which have always been portrayed in the narrative as otherwordly proficient like marines and Aeldari. Being very well trained just doesn't make the cut from 4+ to 3+. Same for earning an LD6.

In fact I believe that the only mistake so far have been sisters. They have zero reasons to have 3+ BS, they should have had a 4+. At least they didn't get the elite version of the bolter profile and they have LD7.

They're BS3+ because of their training. They come out of the Scholar Progenium, who also train Storm Troopers which are, unless something has changed, also BS3+.

BS4+ is your average troops. BS3+ is elite human special forces/Marine average troop/Average Aspect Warrior.

Skitarii aren't elite special forces. They're Tech-Guard, to use an older name.

I would assume that Scions will be 4+ too. Would be very surprised otherwise.

3+ is marine level. Stormtroopers are not marine level.

Dudeface wrote:

ERJAK wrote:
.
The Exorcist isn't bad, but it also very much ISN'T ANTI-TANK. Being S10, Ap-2 and having a D6 shot roll means that it's going to be good at killing terminators or heavy intercessors. Anything bigger than that, it just doesn't have the punch for.

Outside of insane spike rolls (which, while very funny, aren't something you can build a list around) something like a land raider is going to laugh off an Exorcist before popping it like a balloon.

Again, this doesn't mean the FACTION won't be good. It's just irritating that we've seen all but ONE of our ranged weapons and none of them are any good at hurting vehicles.

They're not as far removed as you want to represent. I know the below is unlikely for a few reasons, but never the less:

3 prisms into a t10 medium vehicle does ~18 damage. If we assume 1 unit of retributors = 1 prism in points (we honestly don't know, I suspect they'll be cheaper), 24 multi melta shots after moving, at max range is 14 damage. Get into melta range that's 22 damage, I know it's apples to oranges, but stop whining. They can deal with vehicles fine but through weight of fire.

How did you get to 'I know it's apples to oranges' and not realize the rest of what you said made for a stupid comparison? Like...that's a giant neon sign that you're not correct.