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The missing pages on engagement range & coherency have surfaced.

tld;r: engagement range is unchanged from 1" horizontally and 5" vertically,
double coherency now begins at 7+ models rather than 6+, presumably to allow for joined characters in units.

 xttz wrote:
The missing pages on engagement range & coherency have surfaced.

tld;r: engagement range is unchanged from 1" horizontally and 5" vertically,
double coherency now begins at 7+ models rather than 6+, presumably to allow for joined characters in units.

Spoiler:

I'm not sure why, but I have a sudden urge to ask you to credit your artists...

Edit: 1" engagement means getting a third rank in combat is pretty easy.

Extra edit: actually, i forgot you only get to b2b if they are also in b2b, not just engagement. No third rank.

angel of death 007 wrote:
It is hard to order in a shop. My LGS isn't really heavy into GW and while they can order things, can't really guarantee them. On top of that they offer no discount, which with USA GW pricing makes it very hard to hobby. Maybe they will get the release down, and I hope they do as I miss the days of 40k 5th ed. I am just afraid that even if they do land this, they won't be prepared for anything they release afterwards. I can see a HH effect in play for every release after and a FOMO approach for any box/ army set after with heavy limits.

The box is already a discount. Stressing over $30 to $40 if you really want that box doesn't seem worthwhile if your ultimate goal is cheaper hobbying.

The other option is eBay as lots of people sell there with a 15% discount. If that doesn't work out then there will be tons of people parting out their unused half of the box.

At the end of the day all of these models will be available in the future and there will likely be starter boxes and such following it. GW not meeting the demand of every single person is 1) not necessary and 2) not indicative of a problem.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:
It is hard to order in a shop. My LGS isn't really heavy into GW and while they can order things, can't really guarantee them. On top of that they offer no discount, which with USA GW pricing makes it very hard to hobby. Maybe they will get the release down, and I hope they do as I miss the days of 40k 5th ed. I am just afraid that even if they do land this, they won't be prepared for anything they release afterwards. I can see a HH effect in play for every release after and a FOMO approach for any box/ army set after with heavy limits.

The box is already a discount. Stressing over $30 to $40 if you really want that box doesn't seem worthwhile if your ultimate goal is cheaper hobbying.

The other option is eBay as lots of people sell there with a 15% discount. If that doesn't work out then there will be tons of people parting out their unused half of the box.

At the end of the day all of these models will be available in the future and there will likely be starter boxes and such following it. GW not meeting the demand of every single person is 1) not necessary and 2) not indicative of a problem.

Tell that to anyone who tried to keep up with Kill Team when the last 2 boxes were not appropriately released, and the new Ashes box set shows to follow the same path. I get if not everyone can get something, but when a large majority can't, then people will simply move on. Something that needs to happen to GW so they can get off their high horse, they are hardly the only miniature gaming company in the industry any longer. Their business tactics are that of someone just starting in business with production and release issues and shouldn't be present in a company that has been around for decades.

Well. Funnily enough it's working. Unless they figure out way to do more profits no need to change. Goal is max profits after all.

So far they keep breaking profit records. So it's working.

 xttz wrote:
The missing pages on engagement range & coherency have surfaced.

tld;r: engagement range is unchanged from 1" horizontally and 5" vertically,
double coherency now begins at 7+ models rather than 6+, presumably to allow for joined characters in units.

Spoiler:

Thanks! This answered one of my big questions.

Ah. Disappointing that they kept the weird 'double up' coherency rules, even if they shifted the minimum a bit.

Is it me or is the Death Guard sticky objective rule basically pointless? Opponent moves to objective, loses 1T but then objective switches at end of turn. So unless the DG player shoots overwatch at the unit after movement, the -1 T will have no impact before the DG shooting phase.

There will be a few edge cases (like as you noted with overwatch) in which it may prove useful, but in general yeah mostly pointless.

The big thing is being sticky though.

It's mostly useful for edge cases or later turns it looks like so far. In addition to overwatch, if an opponent uses Rapid Ingress to get guys there on your turn you can shoot them off more easily. And past Turn 3 large portions of the board will be in contagion range. But considering that your units will also have the same range, it's likely that the objective being infected will be largely redundant.

There's a possibility for stratagems that will interact with units in contagion range, but as before, situations where enemy units will be within contagion range of an objective but not within contagion range of one of your units for any appreciable length of time are few. Really the value of the detachment rule is having sticky objectives on everything, so you're encouraged to spend all of your limited inches of movement going forwards rather than hanging around on your homefield objectives.

It also remains to be seen how Plague Marines and Poxwalkers interact with objectives. If poxwalkers have OC of 0 it's going to make them not great back-line defenders, and you do want your plague marines going forwards, probably in Rhinos.

Death Guard sticky objective and aura objective don’t need be considered at the same time. It’s nice that they can walk away and not lose it. It’s also nice that if someone charges in to try and take it from models who didn’t walk away then they’ll be easier for you to wound.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 AduroT wrote:
So Lethal Hits and Overwatch. Every shot fired on Overwatch will auto wound.

The best thing about the new overwatch is no-go zones with flamers. Just moving into range will get you toasted.

O.O

I suddenly think I don't have enough Rubric Marines with warpflamers...

Voss wrote:
Ah. Disappointing that they kept the weird 'double up' coherency rules, even if they shifted the minimum a bit.

Of all the unnecessary rules that add nothing to the game, that one remains one of the more baffling.

 AduroT wrote:
Death Guard sticky objective and aura objective don’t need be considered at the same time. It’s nice that they can walk away and not lose it. It’s also nice that if someone charges in to try and take it from models who didn’t walk away then they’ll be easier for you to wound.

But if they charge in… they’d be in range of a unit, that should have Contagion itself.

angel of death 007 wrote:


Tell that to anyone who tried to keep up with Kill Team when the last 2 boxes were not appropriately released, and the new Ashes box set shows to follow the same path. I get if not everyone can get something, but when a large majority can't, then people will simply move on. Something that needs to happen to GW so they can get off their high horse, they are hardly the only miniature gaming company in the industry any longer. Their business tactics are that of someone just starting in business with production and release issues and shouldn't be present in a company that has been around for decades.

None of those boxes are necessary and all get released as stand alone later. And plenty of KT boxes haven't sold out.

It's quite likely a good portion of their production capacity is setting up boxes for 10th.

Selling out is generally a good thing. It means you didn't make more than you needed to. The gap between demand and supply should be as close as possible, but it'd be a mistake to assume each box will sell more than the next.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:


Tell that to anyone who tried to keep up with Kill Team when the last 2 boxes were not appropriately released, and the new Ashes box set shows to follow the same path. I get if not everyone can get something, but when a large majority can't, then people will simply move on. Something that needs to happen to GW so they can get off their high horse, they are hardly the only miniature gaming company in the industry any longer. Their business tactics are that of someone just starting in business with production and release issues and shouldn't be present in a company that has been around for decades.

None of those boxes are necessary and all get released as stand alone later. And plenty of KT boxes haven't sold out.

It's quite likely a good portion of their production capacity is setting up boxes for 10th.

Selling out is generally a good thing. It means you didn't make more than you needed to. The gap between demand and supply should be as close as possible, but it'd be a mistake to assume each box will sell more than the next.

Also, as much as people complain about big boxes selling out, it's almost always still possible to get them; often even at a 15% discount. Ebay sellers historically have had stock at non-scalp prices for most of the 'sold out' box sets (the one recent exception I can think of is Cursed City.) and there's ALWAYS an FLGS somewhere that either doesn't have marine players or only has broke marine players that will have 50 copies of it on the shelf for some reason.

 bullyboy wrote:
Is it me or is the Death Guard sticky objective rule basically pointless? Opponent moves to objective, loses 1T but then objective switches at end of turn. So unless the DG player shoots overwatch at the unit after movement, the -1 T will have no impact before the DG shooting phase.

Any units with 0 OC (battleshocked or otherwise) will not be able to claim the objective, and suffer from the aura.

 bullyboy wrote:
Is it me or is the Death Guard sticky objective rule basically pointless? Opponent moves to objective, loses 1T but then objective switches at end of turn. So unless the DG player shoots overwatch at the unit after movement, the -1 T will have no impact before the DG shooting phase.

Contagion range can be up to 9", so the marker will radiate the aura onto units which are not close enough to capture.

Not huge, but it makes some sense.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:


Tell that to anyone who tried to keep up with Kill Team when the last 2 boxes were not appropriately released, and the new Ashes box set shows to follow the same path. I get if not everyone can get something, but when a large majority can't, then people will simply move on. Something that needs to happen to GW so they can get off their high horse, they are hardly the only miniature gaming company in the industry any longer. Their business tactics are that of someone just starting in business with production and release issues and shouldn't be present in a company that has been around for decades.

None of those boxes are necessary and all get released as stand alone later. And plenty of KT boxes haven't sold out.

It's quite likely a good portion of their production capacity is setting up boxes for 10th.

Selling out is generally a good thing. It means you didn't make more than you needed to. The gap between demand and supply should be as close as possible, but it'd be a mistake to assume each box will sell more than the next.

Selling out may be good for the company, but running out isn't good for the players. (especially if Leviathan goes like Indomitus and the AoS launch boxes, where you can eventually buy the stuff piecemeal for a ~250% markup)
Call me a crazy person, but I'd rather players be able to buy things, rather than GW safely game their inventory management system (and still have constant shortages- I was looking at direct only stuff today that has feth all to do with 10th edition that's just unavailable, and that isn't unusual anymore).

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

angel of death 007 wrote:


Tell that to anyone who tried to keep up with Kill Team when the last 2 boxes were not appropriately released, and the new Ashes box set shows to follow the same path. I get if not everyone can get something, but when a large majority can't, then people will simply move on. Something that needs to happen to GW so they can get off their high horse, they are hardly the only miniature gaming company in the industry any longer. Their business tactics are that of someone just starting in business with production and release issues and shouldn't be present in a company that has been around for decades.

None of those boxes are necessary and all get released as stand alone later. And plenty of KT boxes haven't sold out.

It's quite likely a good portion of their production capacity is setting up boxes for 10th.

Selling out is generally a good thing. It means you didn't make more than you needed to. The gap between demand and supply should be as close as possible, but it'd be a mistake to assume each box will sell more than the next.

Selling out may be good for the company, but running out isn't good for the players. (especially if Leviathan goes like Indomitus and the AoS launch boxes, where you can eventually buy the stuff piecemeal for a ~250% markup)
Call me a crazy person, but I'd rather players be able to buy things, rather than GW safely game their inventory management system (and still have constant shortages- I was looking at direct only stuff today that has feth all to do with 10th edition that's just unavailable, and that isn't unusual anymore).

It isn't unusual because a lot of things have been building up to the 10th ed release, with those leviathan boxes and the things coming shortly after taking up more and more space.

I guarantee that a month after leviathan finally launches and gets into peoples hands, LOTS of things will come back in stock.

Now, here's the thing that, if I were GW, I'd be looking VERY closely at.

GW knows how many Horus Heresy boxes sold. They know how the 3rd ed AoS Dominion box sold (or didn't in some cases). They have all these numbers. They're going to be comparing them to Indomitus, and other projected growth numbers.

If they go through all of this effort, sacrificing sales of other kits in order to keep enough room for the newest thing, and it sells very well, then they'll very likely be considering more warehouse, distribution center, and factory space to better expand.

If it DOESN'T sell, and there's hundreds, maybe even thousands of boxes just sitting around taking up space in game stores for months or even years (ala Dominion) then it's likely they WONT worry about expanding right away, and likely WONT do this again for 11th edition. They'll go back to the FOMO method and when things sell out they'll sell out, and when the nerds scream about not being able to get the product, they'll ignore it because the numbers wont match the complaints.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Selling out is generally a good thing. It means you didn't make more than you needed to. The gap between demand and supply should be as close as possible, but it'd be a mistake to assume each box will sell more than the next.

There's a big difference between selling out in half an hour to pre-orders, selling out on day of release, and selling out in a fortnight.

If you're regularly hitting the first one, you're leaving money on the table and annoying those customers who can't be slavishly hitting F5 on a browser come pre-order day. At least if you make it to release day and only sell out then, you've satisfied a larger portion of your customer base and made more profit from the release.

While they can't do anything about how 3rd party sellers handle their product, at a bare minimum they should be bringing back the anti-scalper measures (like the queue system) they had, even if they don't go as far as putting in that M2O pre-order promise again.

One thing that many are missing with the infected objectives, is that Death Guard can get 25% of points in demons. The demons will not benefit from the army rule, so no contagion range for them. This is where the contagion from objectives enters the scene.

Spoletta wrote:
One thing that many are missing with the infected objectives, is that Death Guard can get 25% of points in demons. The demons will not benefit from the army rule, so no contagion range for them. This is where the contagion from objectives enters the scene.

Same for an allied dreadblade.

So Nurgle Daemons would be impacted by Nurgle-based special rules...

Yeah, they really didn't think these through. And to think that just by using the Keywords system they already have, they could fix it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So Nurgle Daemons would be impacted by Nurgle-based special rules...

Yeah, they really didn't think these through. And to think that just by using the Keywords system they already have, they could fix it.

To the contrary, they managed to create a synergy between Death Guard and Nurgle Demons, which makes a lot of sense.

 Dysartes wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Selling out is generally a good thing. It means you didn't make more than you needed to. The gap between demand and supply should be as close as possible, but it'd be a mistake to assume each box will sell more than the next.

There's a big difference between selling out in half an hour to pre-orders, selling out on day of release, and selling out in a fortnight.

If you're regularly hitting the first one, you're leaving money on the table and annoying those customers who can't be slavishly hitting F5 on a browser come pre-order day. At least if you make it to release day and only sell out then, you've satisfied a larger portion of your customer base and made more profit from the release.

While they can't do anything about how 3rd party sellers handle their product, at a bare minimum they should be bringing back the anti-scalper measures (like the queue system) they had, even if they don't go as far as putting in that M2O pre-order promise again.

Of course discounted models they don't sell now are full price models they sell later.

You are arquing what if's vs proven record breaking profit. Obviously current system works at upping profits all the time. Gw is unlikely to risk what works over unknown. Especially as they have more and better data to go than you or me.

I’m still bitter our store never got a single copy of Nephilim, the book you were supposed to have to run/play in events.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
So Nurgle Daemons would be impacted by Nurgle-based special rules...

Yeah, they really didn't think these through. And to think that just by using the Keywords system they already have, they could fix it.

You are worrying about ENEMY nurgle unit's being affected?

Friendly nurgle units(or even non-nurgle if possible) won't be affected. Any enemy unit is.

Thus your nurgle units come in and if enemy affected by disease from dg model or sticky objective the enemy has -1t. Your nurgle daemons like that.

Well guess they are impacted in sense of enemy toughness worse is that so bad?

I'm a bit surprised we still haven't seen anything coming after the box.
For 9th Indomitus preorder started on July 11th and the four EtB kits were revealed on June 13th, on the same day the box itself was shown fully, so nearly a month earlier so I expected them to do something similar this time, maybe show off one per Monday which would fit exactly until the preorder date of June 10th if they started this week but nothing yet

tneva82 wrote:
Thus your nurgle units come in and if enemy affected by disease from dg model or sticky objective the enemy has -1t. Your nurgle daemons like that.

Ah, you're right. The Death Guard rules don't benefit Death Guard, they are a detriment to their enemies. I thought it was -1 to all non-Death Guard, and would therefore hit friendly Nurgle Daemons, but it affects enemies. Had to get my head around that.