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Necronmaniac05 wrote:
That makes no sense. Statistically it goes through a 4++ 50% of the time which is perfectly fine. You know its absolutely OK for models (even 600pt models) to be capable of, gasp, not hitting or even, gasp, not wounding OR, heaven forbid, my model might actually get a SAVE against it that I might actually pass? This is a dice game and yeah sometimes the dice don't go your way but that is the game.

I don't care what its range is or how many shots it has what I am saying is: Rules which basically ignore chunks of the game and/or my armies rules or abilities are boring and poor games design.

50% isn't a statistic. That's an average - a statistical summary.

It's entirely possible to roll a single die 4+ 10 times in a row and it wouldn't be some mathematical improbability. That's why you might hear someone say "spiking 4s".

You're asserting it as bad game design, because you don't like it when it happens to your models. That doesn't really make it bad design. You're perfectly able to work around the movement of this 18" gun for a model that moves 8" and can't run with it. If you don't want something important to get hit by it then don't go near it.

Tsagualsa wrote:


Probably. They could easily update it by increasing the size slightly while adding a bit of detail, but keeping the general boxy look and proportions.

Technically, they could even do Bjorn that way; he got 'naughted shortly after the Heresy (on a galactic scale, it was a couple of decades iirc.) but i don't think anyone would complain.

Yeah, he could be: Bjorn again.

Right, my coat's over here...

I think it’s important to note that while there may be a reduction in rerolls or overall dice rolling, game management, it certainly isn’t as much as many hoped or GW alluded to.
As for strats, many are baked into the datasheet now, so while the flexibility to do many different things has gone, there is still going to be a massive amount of rules, special rules, etc to learn when playing an opponent. You realistically won’t have time before a game to peruse every data sheet your opponent has to see what rules are in play. Granted, as the edition progresses you will learn what units do, there will be undoubtedly more units added to the game and you know GW cannot help themselves but to bloat out an edition.
We were positive of the direction of 9th in the beginning and I see no exception here. Give it a year and watch the wheels start to fall off.

From today's Last Chance to Buy list

There will still be Forge World units for Warhammer 40,000, but the focus for them will be on the really big stuff – like Titans, and other kits that we can’t reasonably produce at that scale (yet!).

When we add new units in future, they will almost always be in plastic – and there are a lot of plastic kits on the way over the next few years!

RIP any niche Forgeworld units going forward. At least the decimator is still around for now!

Snugiraffe wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:


Probably. They could easily update it by increasing the size slightly while adding a bit of detail, but keeping the general boxy look and proportions.

Technically, they could even do Bjorn that way; he got 'naughted shortly after the Heresy (on a galactic scale, it was a couple of decades iirc.) but i don't think anyone would complain.

Yeah, he could be: Bjorn again.

Right, my coat's over here...

Exalted

 bullyboy wrote:
I think it’s important to note that while there may be a reduction in rerolls or overall dice rolling, game management, it certainly isn’t as much as many hoped or GW alluded to.

Agreed.

When people said they wanted reduced lethality the subtext I usually assumed was "to return to a level in accordance with 3rd through 5th editions" or "so that there are significant forces left on the table at the end of an average game" or "so that dice rolling is cut down".

None of that seems to be happening and the previews show what I'd estimate to be a 15-20% "reduction in lethality" that will still lead to wiped out tables and will not do anything about the handfuls of 30+ dice for single rounds of attacks.

I am of similar opinion; I do see the lethality as having been reduced just not as much as I'd personally like. But it is what it is, I don't consider GWs claims broken on that matter (atm).

Complexity/overhead I still think is a big improvement. Even the exact same content from 9th organized into unit-card format would be massively easier to play with (as an AoS player I somewhat know this from experience).

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
I am of similar opinion; I do see the lethality as having been reduced just not as much as I'd personally like. But it is what it is, I don't consider GWs claims broken on that matter (atm).

It was never going to be reduced as much as we wanted as long as anything can wound anything on a 6.

Won't some of the lethality reduction be accomplished by the elimination of pages and pages of synergizing stratagems, warlord traits, relics, and other bloat? It's not just a matter of unit profiles being altered/reduced by 10-20 percent.

20% reduction in lethality is quite the huge cut.

If previously you were left on turn 5 with around 200-300 points of units struggling around, you willl now have around 600. Ending the game with almost a third of the army left is IMO where the game should try to be.

Less than this and it no longer feels like the grim and ultra bloody setting we all love.

Yeah people saying that it is "only" a 20% reduction in lethality don't quite understand the numbers involved.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

 oni wrote:
- There has not been any meaningful reduction in AP. Again, GW lied.

I'm not sure how you can say that? There are so many things that have had their AP reduced.

I think that reducing the occasional AP by -1 doesn't quite go far enough and will not have a significant impact on the game. Especially with the introduction of some of these weapons rules. I would like to have seen this be more heavy-handed.

tneva82 wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

tneva82 wrote:
So big knights if gets to stay alive not Bracketed kills 1 tank with inv in game. Bohoo

*MIGHT* kill 1 tank

Well 5 turns and you can average 33% under average and it will kill 1.

Which　unless relatively price drops A lot not much to cheer about.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh and not less ap? Most common army in game got basically army wide ap reduction

4 turns realistically considering the valiant is slow as feth

I’m not buying the less lethality discussion just yet. Will have to see how games go to determine if it’s truly the case. We’ve seen plenty of weapons so far that are capable of deleting a lot of models.

 bullyboy wrote:
I’m not buying the less lethality discussion just yet. Will have to see how games go to determine if it’s truly the case. We’ve seen plenty of weapons so far that are capable of deleting a lot of models.

Let's not forget that its more logical for warcom to showcase bigger more flashy weapons too.

People are more likely to get hyped seeing the harpoon launcher than the heavy stubber that smaller knights have

Zachectomy wrote:
Won't some of the lethality reduction be accomplished by the elimination of pages and pages of synergizing stratagems, warlord traits, relics, and other bloat? It's not just a matter of unit profiles being altered/reduced by 10-20 percent.

I do think a lot of people are discounting just HOW MUCH extra lethality was added by big rules wombo combos in 9th.

People whine about Oath of Moment (or Oath of Mid, as I like to call it) but EVERY army basically had army wide Oath of Moment but also with Exploding sixes and bonus AP, and Mortal wounds just because.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 bullyboy wrote:
I’m not buying the less lethality discussion just yet. Will have to see how games go to determine if it’s truly the case. We’ve seen plenty of weapons so far that are capable of deleting a lot of models.

Rhinos went from T7 to T9. Meanwhile Multimeltas went From S8-S9 and lost 6" of range.

That's really all I need to see, personally.

I guess it's slightly impressive that GW have managed to make Imperial Knights look even less fun to play against.

Quite the accomplishment for an army that was already the epitomy of boredom.

Forgeworld has been gutted again :(


And this time the greater demons are gone and the Malanthrope and a bunch of other things. Kind of hoping they might do some limited made to order on them because the news landed and the stock vanished in seconds it seems.

Kinda gutted because i'd wanted a few more Malanthropes and I'd always wanted to get one of the Keepers.

USA and a few other FW stores have some stock so if you're overseas you might still grab a few things

ERJAK wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
Won't some of the lethality reduction be accomplished by the elimination of pages and pages of synergizing stratagems, warlord traits, relics, and other bloat? It's not just a matter of unit profiles being altered/reduced by 10-20 percent.

I do think a lot of people are discounting just HOW MUCH extra lethality was added by big rules wombo combos in 9th.

People whine about Oath of Moment (or Oath of Mid, as I like to call it) but EVERY army basically had army wide Oath of Moment but also with Exploding sixes and bonus AP, and Mortal wounds just because.

For example:

Ingrained Precision
Overcharged Las-Cells
Lord Commander Solar
First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire
The Barbicant's Key
Kasrkin Squad with Hot Shot Laspistol on Sarge, two Melta Guns, two Hot Shot Volley Guns, and five Hot Shot Lasguns, and the move and fire Heavy without penalty extra trait

Altogether, they have:
2 Melta Shots
24 Hot Shot Las Shots (eight of which are S4, not that it matters in the below case)
Full rerolls to-hit and to-wound
Any hit roll of 5+ is an auto-6 to-wound
Any 6 to-wound gives you an extra Mortal Wound, to a max of six
A Deep Strike mid-game

Against a flip-flapping Questoris Knight, they do...

2 Melta
10/9 hits of 5+, 4/9 hits of 3-4
10/9 wounds of auto-6, plus 1/3 wounds, for 13/9 wounds
26/27 failed saves, for 91/27 or 3.37 damage

24 Hot Shot Las
120/9 hits of 5+, 48/9 hits of 3-4
120/9 wounds of auto-6 (more than enough to max out the Mortal Wounds), plus 528/324 or 44/27 plus 6 Mortal Wounds
808/81 failed saves, for 9.98 damage plus 6 Mortal Wounds

That's a total of 3.37+9.98+6=19.35 damage to a Knight with a 5++. From a 10-man infantry squad with buffs.
Or, put another way, it's a 15% chance of killing a Knight outright, a 65% chance of bracketing it to 6 wounds, and a 99% chance of bracketing it to at least 12 wounds.

 oni wrote:


I think that reducing the occasional AP by -1 doesn't quite go far enough and will not have a significant impact on the game. Especially with the introduction of some of these weapons rules. I would like to have seen this be more heavy-handed.

Reduction of AP by only 1 point can actually mean a lot. There is a clear distinction between 40k before and after Armour of Contempt and that only reduced AP by 1.

We are also seeing vehicles jump in toughness while the old school anti-tank weaponry is not, and in some cases(like Multi-Melta) are seeing reduction in range.

Quite a few units seem to be going to BS 4+ instead of the old 3+ they had.

Rerolls are either unit specific or given by an HQ who is a part of the unit. Which makes me believe that aura beasts(monsters that give everyone bonuses) are more unique.

If anything I feel like weaponry is getting more clearly defined and the additions being made to special weapons is to make them worth something, because if people remember GW was so desperate for differents loadout that they gave weapons for free to many armies.

Let us take the Blightlord loadout.

Blight launcher loses an AP and gets Lethal Hits instead. So one in 6 shots is an auto-wound. If you think that is more "lethal" then you probably have cooked dice.
Combi-Weapon seems to be joining together all the different combi loadouts which included Plasma, Melta, and Flamer. Gets dev. wounds and anti-infantry 4+. Again,every 8th shot is a mortal wound. Meltas and plasmas already obliterated infantry in 9th. Yet only strength 4 and no AP so overall a huge reduction. Now whether combi weaponry has some stuff that hasn't been revealed remains to be seen.
Combi-bolter is now Lethal Hits and Rapid Fire 2. So every 6th shot is auto-wound. Still no AP. These weapons were like throwing baguettes at people in 9th and nothing has really changed on that front.
Plague-spewer gets a little glowup with the anti-infantry 2+. Won't destroy many units overall, but is one that you could say is arguably better(against infantry only).
Reaper Autocannon gets a few powers but trades in an AP(from -2 to -1). So every 6th shot is going to do some work with sustained hits, but overall the lethality is lower as you need 6s on wounds and not hits for Dev. Wounds, 1 mortal wound for every 8th shot.
Also, Blightlord lose plague weapons but get reroll 1s of an enemy unit, but only for ranged. So no more old school plague weaponry. Melee Plague weapons all lose AP and reroll 1s to wound. Get autowound on 6 instead. Axe being combined with swords means you no longer get str 6 attacks.
(btw it seems almost all infantry weaponry for DG lost 1 AP and not only "occasional" weapon)

Honestly I think people just really don't have a feel for how important an extra AP is in the game. AoS tends to have a lot of units with no AP or AP -1 and you feel it immediately in combat if you get an extra AP.

With how many small arms are losing their precious -1 AP I imagine Terminators are going to stay around for longer with their 2+ save unless someone brings some dedicated firepower to them.

I also feel like people are missing out on the greater discourse. Tons of people on reddit are bemoaning that their faction got "nerfed". That a big portion of the playerbase thinks that their faction got nerfed and is garbage probably indicates that the game is not as lethal and efficient as it once was. Now whether that remains so throughout the edition remains to be seen.

ERJAK wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I’m not buying the less lethality discussion just yet. Will have to see how games go to determine if it’s truly the case. We’ve seen plenty of weapons so far that are capable of deleting a lot of models.

Rhinos went from T7 to T9. Meanwhile Multimeltas went From S8-S9 and lost 6" of range.

That's really all I need to see, personally.

It’s literally the only thing you’ve talked about since the sisters article came out. One weapon in one army does not define an entire system. Just because it was the way you inflicted damage in 9th has no bearing on what will be required in 10th.

Shadowsword vs Knight then and now. Discounting the poor Predator that's a 20% or more reduction into preferred ( things it doesn't overkill ) targets.


What about the Starcannon - it went UP in strength!


But at least it kills marines better ( 25% increase ).

Well, I bet the Bright Lance is much better considering the staggering S12 and better damage potential.


Whoops. Now Fate Dice can certainly play a roll, but in the old system they were ALWAYS 6s ( of a certain roll type ). Now they're as you roll them and you NEED a Farseer to convert the others.

Here's my favorite. A multimelta at 24" shooting a Predator. It used to be 3.1. What's the guess on that now? Oh, yea. Zero.

Of course this is all baseline and layers of rules are going to increase things. We can't know how much, but clearly the general deadliness is going down while many units have seen durability increases ( bar Admech for the moment ).

The amount something SHOULD decrease should NOT be more than 50%. That would be pretty obscene. So a decrease in the 15 to 30% range is what we should expect and that's what we're seeing.

Ok let's take a land raider.

Melta/fists/missiles wounded it on 4+, now it wounds it on 5+.
Lascannon wounded it on 3+ now it wounds on 5+.
Railgun wounded it on 2+, now it wounds it on 3+.

Different vehicles? Ok let's look at the Rhino.

Fists wounded it on 3+, now on 5+.
Melta and missiles from 3+ to 4+.
Plasma from 3+ to 5+ and also has less AP.

Lethality has gone DOWN, and not by a small margin.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 bullyboy wrote:
I’m not buying the less lethality discussion just yet. Will have to see how games go to determine if it’s truly the case. We’ve seen plenty of weapons so far that are capable of deleting a lot of models.

Let's not forget that its more logical for warcom to showcase bigger more flashy weapons too.

People are more likely to get hyped seeing the harpoon launcher than the heavy stubber that smaller knights have

People on Facebook have been reacting to the big weapons with shock at the big numbers, but it's clear they have no good point of reference or any idea what the old version was like.

The one thing that p5freak pointed out was fishing for mortals from Assault Cannons, H/Onslaught Gatling via Oath. That one is potentially a big problem, but it's one that I have to see on the table.

Definitely curious how close the heavy Magnarail Cannon and the Hammerhead Railgun end up being.

 Tastyfish wrote:
Definitely curious how close the heavy Magnarail Cannon and the Hammerhead Railgun end up being.

I expect the same mechanics. Str, AP and damage are probably going to be +/- 1 so they're 'obviously different' guns

Removed - rule #1 please

 JNAProductions wrote:

ERJAK wrote:

Zachectomy wrote:
Won't some of the lethality reduction be accomplished by the elimination of pages and pages of synergizing stratagems, warlord traits, relics, and other bloat? It's not just a matter of unit profiles being altered/reduced by 10-20 percent.

I do think a lot of people are discounting just HOW MUCH extra lethality was added by big rules wombo combos in 9th.

People whine about Oath of Moment (or Oath of Mid, as I like to call it) but EVERY army basically had army wide Oath of Moment but also with Exploding sixes and bonus AP, and Mortal wounds just because.

For example:

Ingrained Precision
Overcharged Las-Cells
Lord Commander Solar
First Rank Fire, Second Rank Fire
The Barbicant's Key
Kasrkin Squad with Hot Shot Laspistol on Sarge, two Melta Guns, two Hot Shot Volley Guns, and five Hot Shot Lasguns, and the move and fire Heavy without penalty extra trait

Altogether, they have:
2 Melta Shots
24 Hot Shot Las Shots (eight of which are S4, not that it matters in the below case)
Full rerolls to-hit and to-wound
Any hit roll of 5+ is an auto-6 to-wound
Any 6 to-wound gives you an extra Mortal Wound, to a max of six
A Deep Strike mid-game

Against a flip-flapping Questoris Knight, they do...

2 Melta
10/9 hits of 5+, 4/9 hits of 3-4
10/9 wounds of auto-6, plus 1/3 wounds, for 13/9 wounds
26/27 failed saves, for 91/27 or 3.37 damage

24 Hot Shot Las
120/9 hits of 5+, 48/9 hits of 3-4
120/9 wounds of auto-6 (more than enough to max out the Mortal Wounds), plus 528/324 or 44/27 plus 6 Mortal Wounds
808/81 failed saves, for 9.98 damage plus 6 Mortal Wounds

That's a total of 3.37+9.98+6=19.35 damage to a Knight with a 5++. From a 10-man infantry squad with buffs.
Or, put another way, it's a 15% chance of killing a Knight outright, a 65% chance of bracketing it to 6 wounds, and a 99% chance of bracketing it to at least 12 wounds.

A fully buffed repentia squad in 9th averaged TWO dead knights, with potential to spike up to Three dead knights.

All for 140pts.

It's those wombo-combos that I really will NOT miss, if they do manage to strip them back in the new edition.

We already see some major reductions in wombo-comboness by reducing the prevalence of Aura abilities and many characters only buffing the unit they are attached to.

There's reduction in AP, a re-balacing of damage, and overall a reduction in number of attacks and re-rolls.

YES RE-ROLLS ARE STILL A THING, but the ways you get them are reduced, so the game overall should be a little faster in that regard.

There's also the USRs, wild that people are complaining about them. You spend about 5 minutes reading them, reference them for a game or two, and then most people will have them under their belt and the game will be FASTER as a result.

I am indeed seeing the reduced lethality across what we've seen. The new engagement range and melee range for things is a HUGE difference. Sticking things to base-to-base and clarifying how things pile-in and consolidate is MASSIVE changes. Overall it's going to be fewer attacks coming from melee blobs, which means a lot more back and forth rather than your melee death squad one-shotting whatever they charge just because.

How long will it last? No clue. I think calling GW disingenuous or lying at the start is false, BUT if they don't manage their goodwill, they're going to keep bleeding players. 10th edition's state-of-play needs to be consistent. They need to give people reasons to buy codexes and models OTHER THAN the 'meta' or wombo-comboness of certain things. They need to keep to the idea of keeping power creep in check for longer than 1 edition.

The hope is that 10th's design philosophies remain through 11th, and then 12th. I don't want to get to 12th edition in 6 years and have to go through another Indexing. It's not fun, it doesn't make me feel like the products I buy have any value, at least when it comes to the paper.

Now, as for the models going away... well, this is to be expected. They tell us they're not replacing Firstborn while actively replacing Firstborn units, it's hilarious. Very "do as I say, not as I do" sort of vibe. I'd feel more confident about their statements if we actually saw some progress in MOVING THINGS TO PLASTIC, but that's not how they operate. We won't know if some of those kits will get plastic versions until their respective update comes out, like the Drukhari Reaper. Will we actually get a plastic kit for that, or will it simply disappear?

Meanwhile, they're still selling Warp Spiders, Chaos Bikers, and plenty of other things from 3rd ed and prior. It appears to me that this is more an effort to clear out yet more of FW's catalogue than anything else.

I don't see that as removing firstborn.

GW simply has an excessively wide range of miniatures and they can't keep producing and stocking all of them. This means that some have to go.

Half or nearly half of GW range is marines so clearly some retired kits will be from the marine range. And those kits will be from the firstborne, because they are the oldest and least selling ones.

It is common sense. There isn't a will to replace firstborn because they are not primaris. They are simply very old kits so they get redone or dropped.