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 Platuan4th wrote:
Mentioned on stream: Daemon Princes and Daemon Princes with wings are different sheets with different abilities. One is a beat stick, the other is a support ability provider.

That supports the idea that Ahriman on disc will probably be a spell flinger.

Dudeface wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
with all the DG leaks i don't understand how is DG supposed to kill knights?

Anything with lascannons/entropy cannons, anything that drops mortals and mass lethal hits and possibly princes/mortarion/drones depending what they look like for a melee profile.

Hm entropy cannon has only S10. Morty sure. Prince has only S8. So the only ranged option is LR, predator and defiler?

It's not about strength so much as ap/damage. It's supposed to be unusual to get past S10, you need to change the mindset here. You also missed helbrute.


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 Tyran wrote:
It seem pretty much everything in DG has lethal hits, so weight of dice should work on knights.

This.

Lascannon are strength 12 and super common.

And what weight of fire? Math out how many shots they have and since almost everthing has low ap how ineffective that will be against good armor saves.


They lost easily to demons, the demon player played poorly at one point they litterally pan to the announcers for no apparent reason for well over a minute( the only time they do that) then they announce the deathguard mad some very unlikely charge, then they fail to even kill the thing they charge (keeper of secrets, can't remember if it was damaged already or not).

Demons should have been a good match up for death guard. Low armor saves all around toughness breaks where we need them for the - 1 toughness to matter. Very low shooting ability, it was a match made to show off the deathguard. The demons played poorly and still won easily.

Anyways I don't want to stink up the news and rumors thread more so this is the last I'll say on death guard for now.

They are bad.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Mentioned on stream: Daemon Princes and Daemon Princes with wings are different sheets with different abilities. One is a beat stick, the other is a support ability provider.

That supports the idea that Ahriman on disc will probably be a spell flinger.

Fwiw the on foot DG prince has a fnp aura, so possibly the most requested unit for that faction and actually gives the +3" enhancement some value.

Typhus

DP

DP Wings

Dudeface wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
with all the DG leaks i don't understand how is DG supposed to kill knights?

Anything with lascannons/entropy cannons, anything that drops mortals and mass lethal hits and possibly princes/mortarion/drones depending what they look like for a melee profile.

Hm entropy cannon has only S10. Morty sure. Prince has only S8. So the only ranged option is LR, predator and defiler?

It's not about strength so much as ap/damage. It's supposed to be unusual to get past S10, you need to change the mindset here. You also missed helbrute.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
It seem pretty much everything in DG has lethal hits, so weight of dice should work on knights.

This.

Good point on lethal hits its like old old Necrons. ah yep forgot the hellbrute.
I am excited for 10th, looks like there will be a lot more models on the table at the end of the games.

Boosykes wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:

Dudeface wrote:

 nordsturmking wrote:
with all the DG leaks i don't understand how is DG supposed to kill knights?

Anything with lascannons/entropy cannons, anything that drops mortals and mass lethal hits and possibly princes/mortarion/drones depending what they look like for a melee profile.

Hm entropy cannon has only S10. Morty sure. Prince has only S8. So the only ranged option is LR, predator and defiler?

It's not about strength so much as ap/damage. It's supposed to be unusual to get past S10, you need to change the mindset here. You also missed helbrute.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tyran wrote:
It seem pretty much everything in DG has lethal hits, so weight of dice should work on knights.

This.

Lascannon are strength 12 and super common.

And what weight of fire? Math out how many shots they have and since almost everthing has low ap how ineffective that will be against good armor saves.

You're right they're super common, they're on 4 units in the DG roster, so use them.

Soulgrinder





Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boosykes wrote:

Lascannon are strength 12 and super common.

And what weight of fire? Math out how many shots they have and since almost everthing has low ap how ineffective that will be against good armor saves.

A Lascannon does 1 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 4.5 = 1 to a knight
The Entropy does 1 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 = 0.7

The difference is not massive. You're just not blowing the knight away like with 9th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Fwiw the on foot DG prince has a fnp aura, so possibly the most requested unit for that faction and actually gives the +3" enhancement some value.

I do hope that a DP isn't the only way to get this benefit, but it certainly does make things a little better overall.

 nordsturmking wrote:
with all the DG leaks i don't understand how is DG supposed to kill knights?

Helbrute and Haulers I guess?

That scuttling walker ability on the Soul Grinder is... amusing. It sounds useful, but soulgrinders are so big that with just 8" of movement, you're unlikely to actually clear the friendly model.

Presumably you still can't stop on top of other models.
Not sure why this won't work with infantry, as that seems much easier. (Vehicles can't just do that by default now, right?)

I like the four options on the Soul Grinder.

Aren't options fun?

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soulgrinder

so i think this is gonna be the primo anti-tank piece for mono tzeentch, that warp gaze seems pretty damn good

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I like the four options on the Soul Grinder.

Aren't options fun?

mere bloat i am afraid.

Well, there's at least a reason to take a foot prince now, even if he is going to get killed ASAP.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I like the four options on the Soul Grinder.

Aren't options fun?

And no option for unaligned! It must belong to one of the Big Four!

Fire Prism - get it's own set of rerolls giving it essentially full rerolls on the focused version.



Against a Knight --

2 * .888 * .888 * .666 * 6 = 6.3

A PBC putting everything into a Knight -

( 2 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 2 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 2
( 6.5 * .167 * .5 * 2 ) + ( 6.5 * .5 * .333 * .5 * 2 ) = 2.2

Prism is softer, but this seems fairly reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


A Lascannon does 1 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 4.5 = 1 to a knight
The Entropy does 1 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 = 0.7

I forgot Lethal Hits on the Entropy here. With that it does the same damage to a knight than a lascannon does.

( 1 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 1 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 1

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fire Prism - get it's own set of rerolls giving it essentially full rerolls on the focused version.

Spoiler:

Against a Knight --

2 * .888 * .888 * .666 * 6 = 6.3

A PBC putting everything into a Knight -

( 2 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 2 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 2
( 6.5 * .167 * .5 * 2 ) + ( 6.5 * .5 * .333 * .5 * 2 ) = 2.2

Prism is softer, but this seems fairly reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


A Lascannon does 1 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 4.5 = 1 to a knight
The Entropy does 1 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 = 0.7

I forgot Lethal Hits on the Entropy here. With that it does the same damage to a knight than a lascannon does.

( 1 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 1 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 1

Flat 6 damage and reroll hit and wound for these shots? Yeah... right

Biasn wrote:
Flat 6 damage and reroll hit and wound for these shots? Yeah... right

A Prism without rerolls -- 2 * .666 * .666 * .666 * 6 = 3.5

A Prism should be more expensive than a PBC, but not by a ton, I think. We're also forcing the PBC to be anti-tank when it has a great utility on the mortar.

Wait the pbc is only T10? Wouldve expected T12 or atlest T11 guess GW really hates Death Guard for creating Corona

Taurox

Not sure I'd immediately go "DG Bad" - but I feel "10 man Blightlord unit" is a liability. Feels like you are often going to be dependent on long charges - and not doing all that much when you connect.

With that said, hope we see the Blight Drone and MBH datasheets at some point.

Biasn wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fire Prism - get it's own set of rerolls giving it essentially full rerolls on the focused version.

Spoiler:

Against a Knight --

2 * .888 * .888 * .666 * 6 = 6.3

A PBC putting everything into a Knight -

( 2 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 2 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 2
( 6.5 * .167 * .5 * 2 ) + ( 6.5 * .5 * .333 * .5 * 2 ) = 2.2

Prism is softer, but this seems fairly reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


A Lascannon does 1 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 4.5 = 1 to a knight
The Entropy does 1 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 = 0.7

I forgot Lethal Hits on the Entropy here. With that it does the same damage to a knight than a lascannon does.

( 1 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 1 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 1

Flat 6 damage and reroll hit and wound for these shots? Yeah... right

One hit roll and one wound roll. Does not make a huge difference on the focused version, but essentially you'd probably use Fate dice anyway if it is a game-deciding shot.

Biasn wrote:
Wait the pbc is only T10? Wouldve expected T12 or atlest T11 guess GW really hates Death Guard for creating Corona

Many vehicles in the same 'class' are T9. It is an upgrade, though of dubious worth (pending more reveals of course). Most 'light' AT weapons that have been shown off are S9, and heavier are S12 or S14. With the big guns at 18 or 24 so they can wound on 2+ vs T9 or 12.

The strength/toughness expansion for vehicles is pretty centered around doubling toughness values to better wound specific 'classes' of vehicle, or aiming for the 3+ sweet spot or 4+ to establish a baseline for krak missiles vs lascannons (4+ to wound into normal tanks and land raiders respectively)

Tsagualsa wrote:

Biasn wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Fire Prism - get it's own set of rerolls giving it essentially full rerolls on the focused version.

Spoiler:

Against a Knight --

2 * .888 * .888 * .666 * 6 = 6.3

A PBC putting everything into a Knight -

( 2 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 2 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 2
( 6.5 * .167 * .5 * 2 ) + ( 6.5 * .5 * .333 * .5 * 2 ) = 2.2

Prism is softer, but this seems fairly reasonable.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Daedalus81 wrote:


A Lascannon does 1 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 4.5 = 1 to a knight
The Entropy does 1 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 = 0.7

I forgot Lethal Hits on the Entropy here. With that it does the same damage to a knight than a lascannon does.

( 1 * .167 * .666 * 4.5 ) + ( 1 * .5 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 ) = 1

Flat 6 damage and reroll hit and wound for these shots? Yeah... right

One hit roll and one wound roll.

You know the eldar detachement ability right?

Tsagualsa wrote:
One hit roll and one wound roll.

Right, but the detachment ability gives them a second set like that.

Voss wrote:

Biasn wrote:
Wait the pbc is only T10? Wouldve expected T12 or atlest T11 guess GW really hates Death Guard for creating Corona

Many vehicles in the same 'class' are T9. It is an upgrade, though of dubious worth (pending more reveals of course). Most 'light' AT weapons that have been shown off are S9, and heavier are S12 or S14. With the big guns at 18 or 24 so they can wound on 2+ vs T9 or 12.

The strength/toughness expansion for vehicles is pretty centered around doubling toughness values to better wound specific 'classes' of vehicle, or aiming for the 3+ sweet spot or 4+ to establish a baseline for krak missiles vs lascannons (4+ to wound into normal tanks and land raiders respectively)

Did i remember wrong or what T was the PCB in 9th edition? Was it 7 or 8? I always assumed they are as tough as the Leman Russ Tanks.

Tyel wrote:
Not sure I'd immediately go "DG Bad" - but I feel "10 man Blightlord unit" is a liability. Feels like you are often going to be dependent on long charges - and not doing all that much when you connect.

With that said, hope we see the Blight Drone and MBH datasheets at some point.

The biggest problem with DG, I think, is that their -1T clashes with their Lethal Hits and reroll wounds so it feels weird. That and some of the uninspired abilities they have compared to other armies.

A LoV in with BL with combis will do 3MW to a knight in half when fishing for 6s.

Alternatively they can do 7.5 MW against infantry. They have a role, but it's just not the as multi-purpose as it used to be.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Biasn wrote:
Did i remember wrong or what T was the PCB in 9th edition? Was it 7 or 8? I always assumed they are as tough as the Leman Russ Tanks.

They were 8. So LC wounded them on 3s then and 3s now, but MM are now 5s instead of 4s.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Soulgrinder

Spoiler:

Spoiler:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Boosykes wrote:

Lascannon are strength 12 and super common.

And what weight of fire? Math out how many shots they have and since almost everthing has low ap how ineffective that will be against good armor saves.

A Lascannon does 1 * .666 * .5 * .666 * 4.5 = 1 to a knight
The Entropy does 1 * .666 * .333 * .666 * 4.5 = 0.7

The difference is not massive. You're just not blowing the knight away like with 9th.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dudeface wrote:
Fwiw the on foot DG prince has a fnp aura, so possibly the most requested unit for that faction and actually gives the +3" enhancement some value.

I do hope that a DP isn't the only way to get this benefit, but it certainly does make things a little better overall.

Also, not for nothing, but DG still have way better guns than some other armies cough*sisters*cough, at least YOUR S10 gun has lethal hits.

Hmm... page 38:

PSYCHIC WEAPONS
AND ABILITIES
Some weapons and abilities can only
be used by Psykers. Such weapons
and abilities are tagged with the
word ‘Psychic’. If a Psychic weapon
or ability causes any unit to suffer
one or more wounds, each of those
wounds is considered to have been
inflicted by a Psychic Attack.

Flamers have Psychic weapons yet are not Psykers.

Hmm...

Voss wrote:

Biasn wrote:
Wait the pbc is only T10? Wouldve expected T12 or atlest T11 guess GW really hates Death Guard for creating Corona

Many vehicles in the same 'class' are T9. It is an upgrade, though of dubious worth (pending more reveals of course). Most 'light' AT weapons that have been shown off are S9, and heavier are S12 or S14. With the big guns at 18 or 24 so they can wound on 2+ vs T9 or 12.

The strength/toughness expansion for vehicles is pretty centered around doubling toughness values to better wound specific 'classes' of vehicle, or aiming for the 3+ sweet spot or 4+ to establish a baseline for krak missiles vs lascannons (4+ to wound into normal tanks and land raiders respectively)

T9 to T10 is the biggest breakpoint for vehicles.

Melta and auto cannons are S9.

Past that you have to get to T13 to see another breakpoint.

Tormentbringer