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It solidifies BA as the melee specialist army and Space Wolves as tough brawlers. T6 3+/4++ W4 is no joke. Death Company also need that Chaplain around to do mission work.

As for the proliferation of special rules - it provides a level of interesting tactical options. If all the Captains had the ability that gives the Captain DW and extra attacks once per game then you really wouldn't want to use a Captain on a non-melee focused unit, right?

Sure T6 4+++ 4w is sorta Tough. But they will lose to those JP units with real CC weapons who can charge them negating their one special rule. So pretty much anything BA. Those same BA units can be -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded, -1 to damage them and have Lethal hits (partially negating T6). Also BA units will have +1 attack and +1 STR on the charge. SW might have a detachment special rule by turn two. They certainly won't be able to match BA one until at least turn 3. Yes the points are not out yet, but lets face it, they won't reflect the ridiculous difference in effectiveness between those two lists.

Also why do Blood Claws, and Sky Claws have one less attack than Assault Squads and Assault Squads with Jump packs? They also have worse special rules. Traditionally Blood Claws have been better than either of the above.

 kodos wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:
So, Space Wolves terminators can mix cyclone launchers with lightning claws, but Dark Angels can not. Damn you GW.

always been that way, at least they are consistent with that over years......

Um, no? I've been playing since early 2000. In that time DA have mostly been able to mix cyclones and ccws.

Fortis Kill-team has me a little confused. I expected to see the new flamer marines included, but instead they've got a 1-in-5 Long Vigil Ranged Weapon option.

Edit: I should probably expand on that - I wonder if that option is meant to represent the flamers, or if it's meant to represent how Fortis Kill-teams could mix different types of bolt rifles when no one else could, or if there is an upgrade sprue (potentially for Kill Team) with a combi-weapon (or similar) on the way.

Justyn wrote:

Traditionally Blood Claws have been better than either of the above.

Which alwavs was bit odd why are new guys better than more experienced ones though

Which alwavs was bit odd why are new guys better than more experienced ones though

Well if you go back to when it made the most sense, they got more attacks but were easier to hit because they were berserkers. Mostly they are garbage now.

No One Important wrote:
Fortis Kill-team has me a little confused. I expected to see the new flamer marines included, but instead they've got a 1-in-5 Long Vigil Ranged Weapon option.

the 1 in 5 LVRW is for the intercessor's grenade launcher, i think.

and, honestly? i wouldn't be surprised if the people who wrote this index were "not in" on the infurnus squad being a thing, so they couldn't include it.

who knows? maybe it will be added in a future dataslate.

Justyn wrote:

It solidifies BA as the melee specialist army and Space Wolves as tough brawlers. T6 3+/4++ W4 is no joke. Death Company also need that Chaplain around to do mission work.

As for the proliferation of special rules - it provides a level of interesting tactical options. If all the Captains had the ability that gives the Captain DW and extra attacks once per game then you really wouldn't want to use a Captain on a non-melee focused unit, right?

Sure T6 4+++ 4w is sorta Tough. But they will lose to those JP units with real CC weapons who can charge them negating their one special rule. So pretty much anything BA. Those same BA units can be -1 to be hit, -1 to be wounded, -1 to damage them and have Lethal hits (partially negating T6). Also BA units will have +1 attack and +1 STR on the charge. SW might have a detachment special rule by turn two. They certainly won't be able to match BA one until at least turn 3. Yes the points are not out yet, but lets face it, they won't reflect the ridiculous difference in effectiveness between those two lists.

Also why do Blood Claws, and Sky Claws have one less attack than Assault Squads and Assault Squads with Jump packs? They also have worse special rules. Traditionally Blood Claws have been better than either of the above.

They should be worse - they used to be younger more impteous Wolves and so less effective that more veteran Assault squads in other Chapters....eg they were WS3 rather than WS 4 IIRC

They should be worse - they used to be younger more impteous Wolves and so less effective that more veteran Assault squads in other Chapters....eg they were WS3 rather than WS 4 IIRC

Yes and got +2 attacks on the charge. Because Berserkers. They were pretty fluffy then. Just being flat worse. Whatever why bother having them at all. There are some really BS discrepancies between these Indexes that some will be stuck using for 2 years.

Justyn wrote:

They should be worse - they used to be younger more impteous Wolves and so less effective that more veteran Assault squads in other Chapters....eg they were WS3 rather than WS 4 IIRC

Yes and got +2 attacks on the charge. Because Berserkers. They were pretty fluffy then. Just being flat worse. Whatever why bother having them at all. There are some really BS discrepancies between these Indexes that some will be stuck using for 2 years.

Its better than having Every "Wulf unit" be Marine Unit +1 - Come On we all know that Wolves will get a Op Codex full of stupid new flanderisation before most entire races get anything.

I would agree that Wolf Scouts absolutely should not be 1W

 Jidmah wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
I personally thought this launch went well. If you accept that GW will never have been able to make enough for everyone in the world who wanted one, the fact it was still available in the UK at 8am this morning (its OOS now) and after I had waited in the online queue for over an hour yesterday means they probably got the stock levels about right.

Going OOS for a product when you're the manufacturer and can simply make more (as they already have other times) is not something that would really happen unless the company wants to.

Third party retailers is another story (and even then they could also do it, if they wanted to), but I guess training buyers to go to their own webstore works for them.

What gives you the impression they won't be producing more of these models?

They just won't be selling them as a heavily discounted box.

"Product" as in "set", or "this box right here" if you want. I think it was implied, but it seems it was not implied enough.

Oh boy, those Fortis KT's.

Someone on reddit already did the math, for 3 Fortis KT's with termies, assault cannons, anti-infantry 2+ from the Hellfire Rounds stratagem, 2 characters, Old Vigil bolters, it's something like 90 mws.

Amazing how these things stack.

xerxeskingofking wrote:

No One Important wrote:
Fortis Kill-team has me a little confused. I expected to see the new flamer marines included, but instead they've got a 1-in-5 Long Vigil Ranged Weapon option.

the 1 in 5 LVRW is for the intercessor's grenade launcher, i think.

and, honestly? i wouldn't be surprised if the people who wrote this index were "not in" on the infurnus squad being a thing, so they couldn't include it.

who knows? maybe it will be added in a future dataslate.

Oh. Right. Grenade Launcher. That's definitely it. I forgot about those.

 Destrado wrote:
Oh boy, those Fortis KT's.

Someone on reddit already did the math, for 3 Fortis KT's with termies, assault cannons, anti-infantry 2+ from the Hellfire Rounds stratagem, 2 characters, Old Vigil bolters, it's something like 90 mws.

Amazing how these things stack.

Did they remember rite is once per unit? Regardless of how many captain(of any type) you have?

2 units is max that benefits from stratagem.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Albertorius wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Albertorius wrote:

Necronmaniac05 wrote:
I personally thought this launch went well. If you accept that GW will never have been able to make enough for everyone in the world who wanted one, the fact it was still available in the UK at 8am this morning (its OOS now) and after I had waited in the online queue for over an hour yesterday means they probably got the stock levels about right.

Going OOS for a product when you're the manufacturer and can simply make more (as they already have other times) is not something that would really happen unless the company wants to.

Third party retailers is another story (and even then they could also do it, if they wanted to), but I guess training buyers to go to their own webstore works for them.

What gives you the impression they won't be producing more of these models?

They just won't be selling them as a heavily discounted box.

"Product" as in "set", or "this box right here" if you want. I think it was implied, but it seems it was not implied enough.

Well large discount box was always intended to not be unlimited. That's what starter sets are for.

tneva82 wrote:

 Destrado wrote:
Oh boy, those Fortis KT's.

Someone on reddit already did the math, for 3 Fortis KT's with termies, assault cannons, anti-infantry 2+ from the Hellfire Rounds stratagem, 2 characters, Old Vigil bolters, it's something like 90 mws.

Amazing how these things stack.

Did they remember rite is once per unit? Regardless of how many captain(of any type) you have?

2 units is max that benefits from stratagem.

Hellfire Rounds allows you to pick either two units with the KILL TEAM keyword or one ADEPTUS ASTARTES unit per use natively.

You can use the stratagem again thanks to Captain Artemis leading a unit.

"Tactical Instinct: While this model is leading a unit, you can target that unit with a Stratagem even if that Stratagem has already been used on another unit from your army this phase.
In addition, that unit can be targeted with a Stratagem even while it is Battle-shocked"

 nordsturmking wrote:
has this been posted?

Glad they finally gave the Auric armor on the blade champion a 2+.

 Destrado wrote:
You can use the stratagem again thanks to Captain Artemis leading a unit.

"Tactical Instinct: While this model is leading a unit, you can target that unit with a Stratagem even if that Stratagem has already been used on another unit from your army this phase.
In addition, that unit can be targeted with a Stratagem even while it is Battle-shocked"

Even with bog-standard Captains you can target three units: Two by using the Stratagem normally, because it allows targeting two Killteams, and once for 0 CP by targeting the unit led by the Captain via Rites of Battle. Artemis could potentially give you a fourth target, as his is a different ability.

And here I was thinking GW was getting away from all the gimmicky wombo combos in the game. All I’ve seen so far is people stacking abilities and combos to maximize ridiculous damage.
This is what happens when every unit in the game has an inbuilt strategem active at all times.

Sorry, but this isn’t simpler, it’s same ole same ole, give me your money for a new way to play. Yawn.

And here they were claiming death to wombo-combos..

Yeah pretty disappointed, the combos are outrageous and made it through playtesting.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
...made it through playtesting.

Oh you sweet summer child...

Guess events gotta ban Deathwatch.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah pretty disappointed, the combos are outrageous and made it through playtesting.

I'd not cry uncle before points drop, and before that stuff sees actual play... with several characters, enhancements and gear you're putting a lot of points in these units, that get T4 (majority rule in the Killteam rule) and rely on a lot of once-per-game stuff for these mythical 'average 90 Mortal Wounds'; it will be hell of an Alpha Strike if you pull it off, but if that fails as little as a single Vindicator etc. can take out one third of your army with a single shot, and stuff that deals out moderate amounts of Mortal Wounds will make these units feel the pain fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Guess events gotta ban Deathwatch.

Banning the Hellfire Rounds Stratagem is probably enough.

Oh lordy we haven't even made it past the marines and it's already a tyre fire. 10e is gonna knock 6e's crown as shortest lived edition off, isn't it?

 bullyboy wrote:
And here I was thinking GW was getting away from all the gimmicky gotchas in the game. All I’ve e seen so far is people stacking abilities and combos to maximize ridiculous damage.
This is what happens when every unit in the game has an inbuilt strategem active at all times.

Sorry, but this isn’t simpler, it’s same ole same ole, give me your money for a new way to play. Yawn.

The same way there is a cap to hit/wound, there should be a cap on how these effects stack.

I don't think they should ever have [ANTI] (especially 2+!) and [Devastating Wounds] on a squad. You're bypassing the "to wound" and "save roll" parts, hitting on 2+.

Especially worse, since you can use the stratagem on 2 units (or 3 with the right conditions).

They could limit the stratagem to 1 kill team and/or maybe couldn't be used on the same type of KT. Or Long Vigil weapons only.


I think the game is a lot simpler, yes. I think the Datasheet and less stratagems makes it easier to balance out some units. The reduction in the AP system will also help survivability but I'm not sure about Weapon Abilities.

 Destrado wrote:


I don't think they should ever have [ANTI] (especially 2+!) and [Devastating Wounds] on a squad. You're bypassing the "to wound" and "save roll" parts, hitting on 2+.

Anti- triggers on To Wound roll, not To-Hit

Tsagualsa wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah pretty disappointed, the combos are outrageous and made it through playtesting.

I'd not cry uncle before points drop, and before that stuff sees actual play... with several characters, enhancements and gear you're putting a lot of points in these units, that get T4 (majority rule in the Killteam rule) and rely on a lot of once-per-game stuff for these mythical 'average 90 Mortal Wounds'; it will be hell of an Alpha Strike if you pull it off, but if that fails as little as a single Vindicator etc. can take out one third of your army with a single shot, and stuff that deals out moderate amounts of Mortal Wounds will make these units feel the pain fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Guess events gotta ban Deathwatch.

Banning the Hellfire Rounds Stratagem is probably enough.

Even if they're 50ppm it's still a stupid combo that sucks the fun out of the game. It never should have made it past even the smallest amount of scrutiny.

 The Red Hobbit wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 The Red Hobbit wrote:
Yeah pretty disappointed, the combos are outrageous and made it through playtesting.

I'd not cry uncle before points drop, and before that stuff sees actual play... with several characters, enhancements and gear you're putting a lot of points in these units, that get T4 (majority rule in the Killteam rule) and rely on a lot of once-per-game stuff for these mythical 'average 90 Mortal Wounds'; it will be hell of an Alpha Strike if you pull it off, but if that fails as little as a single Vindicator etc. can take out one third of your army with a single shot, and stuff that deals out moderate amounts of Mortal Wounds will make these units feel the pain fast.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Platuan4th wrote:
Guess events gotta ban Deathwatch.

Banning the Hellfire Rounds Stratagem is probably enough.

Even if they're 50ppm it's still a stupid combo that sucks the fun out of the game. It never should have made it past even the smallest amount of scrutiny.

I agree on that. Just a couple of days ago, i said (concerning Grav-weapons) that Anti-something 2+ was dumb on things and just waiting to be broken by some character or whatever putting Devastating Wounds on stuff, and look where we are now. Now it's a Stratagem that's a problem because it gives out Anti-X, but the base problem is the same. I think GW wants such interactions, because they think they're 'flavourful' and 'thematic', and yet again were foiled by their usual triple-whammy of doing either only superficial or no playtesting, don't really playing their own game, and not running basic math sanity checks.

Anyway, that stuff should be simple-ish to errata out, and hopefully they do so soon and with extreme prejudice.

Agreed. Honestly decoupling Anti and Devastating Wounds would solve a lot of issues from what we've seen of Indexhammer.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Destrado wrote:


I don't think they should ever have [ANTI] (especially 2+!) and [Devastating Wounds] on a squad. You're bypassing the "to wound" and "save roll" parts, hitting on 2+.

Anti- triggers on To Wound roll, not To-Hit

Yeah, got it mixed, I also had Lethal Hits floating in my head, which only wound, not critically wound.

But still, it's allowing a unit to do mortal wounds on a 2+, with 18 shots just from the terminators. That's probably too much.