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 H.B.M.C. wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Thank God Spawn are capped at 2 models for a unit. Can you imagine the unintended interaction that could've happened otherwise?

Wait... what???

*checks datasheets*

Oh FFS GW... first we get NM/NR. Then we get sprue-based weapon restrictions. And now they really are doubling down on it with box-based limitations.

Like how you have to take the Enforcer and Ogryn as a single, 2 model, leader unit.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

EviscerationPlague wrote:
Thank God Spawn are capped at 2 models for a unit. Can you imagine the unintended interaction that could've happened otherwise?

Well...they went from a 5+ save to 4+ 5++ 5+++ heal D3 ( and +1M, +2A ). Allowing 15 of them would be a bit much, I think.

EDIT: Sorry - only TS have the 5++.

The rule for regen specifically calls out one model per unit being able to do it. So no, a 4+/5+++ isn't that big a deal.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If it was box based they could have done 2-4.

You're going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that this isn't box-based? Carnifexes used to be 1-3. Now they're 1-2. What are Carnifexes sold in? Here's a hint: Boxes of 2!

If you think this squad limitation has anything to do with the rules then you are insane.

 vipoid wrote:
So Chaos Daemons get all of 1 enhancement per god.

Guess this is GW's way of telling you not to play mono-faction anymore.


Also, am I the only one who finds it a bit weird that CSMs have a stratagem to heal units and specifically resurrects Tzeentch units, but the literal followers of Tzeentch don't have the same?

Mono will be specific detachments.

There's no way to do one det that gives out big mono faction for all without breaking design parameters and what's odds off design stayng consistent edition if it's broken on day 1...

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If it was box based they could have done 2-4.

You're going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that this isn't box-based? Carnifexes used to be 1-3. Now they're 1-2. What are Carnifexes sold in? Here's a hint: Boxes of 2!

If you think this squad limitation has anything to do with the rules then you are insane.

The initial size is the box, which is nice. The max size is not. Obliterators can go 2-4. "Box based", but not limited to one box. And fexes as you pointed out can be 1-2 -- not just 2.

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:
If it was box based they could have done 2-4.

You're going to sit there with a straight face and tell me that this isn't box-based? Carnifexes used to be 1-3. Now they're 1-2. What are Carnifexes sold in? Here's a hint: Boxes of 2!

If you think this squad limitation has anything to do with the rules then you are insane.

The initial size is the box, which is nice. The max size is not. Obliterators can go 2-4. "Box based", but not limited to one box. And fexes as you pointed out can be 1-2 -- not just 2.

And the MINIMUM for Oblits has nothing to to with the box either, right?

There better be an Eightbound equivalent for Death Guard to replace Possessed.

On positive notes, a WE Daemon Prince with the Berserker Glaive looks like it could be brutal. And it looks like Cult Marines are back in the game for CSM. Also, no points charge for marks.

You really think that Spawn being sold 2 to a box and their unit size being 2 is a complete coincidence?

You will excuse anything.

If you look at AoS one thing GW has been pushing is smaller army sizes and minimum unit formations. AoS right now at 2K points you can only make 2 full units of troops. Every other unit will have to be minimum counts (ergo 1 box content).

I think its part of GW making the game smaller in model count to try and encourage more new people in and discourage the game developing such a huge requirement for models that it causes many to step away.

It's also an interesting move to try and make middleweight and elite style units more viable in gameplay. One issue when you can have big units is people put lots of points into them and you have them dominate.
So you nerf them which means they still dominate because now they are working and only work in big units so you still have the same issue.


Instead if you start breaking units into smaller unit sizes across the board; you can start to have the same number of models; just spread out into more squads.


It's an interesting move and one I understand but also feel that it loses that sense of "and here's my big unit" or "here's my army of 6 formations of powerful infantry and elites" and such.

 Overread wrote:
If you look at AoS one thing GW has been pushing is smaller army sizes and minimum unit formations. AoS right now at 2K points you can only make 2 full units of troops. Every other unit will have to be minimum counts (ergo 1 box content).

And the day Reinforcement Points make their way into 40k is the day I stop playing 40k.

 Overread wrote:
I think its part of GW making the game smaller in model count to try and encourage more new people in and discourage the game developing such a huge requirement for models that it causes many to step away.

None of which excuses what they've done to Spawn. They're just that way because that's what's in the box. No if's, no but's. It's just that.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You really think that Spawn being sold 2 to a box and their unit size being 2 is a complete coincidence?

You will excuse anything.

can you chill the feth out? They clearly said that they acknowledged the min size was box-based.
They were saying that GW *couldve* made it 2-4 to allow players to bring more than 6 but chose not to for some reason.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
None of which excuses what they've done to Spawn. They're just that way because that's what's in the box. No if's, no but's. It's just that.

which is a good thing for new players, you buy a box, you have exactly what you need to run them. (but yes, spawns not being able to be reinforced is a weird one considering what we've seen from similar units)

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
You really think that Spawn being sold 2 to a box and their unit size being 2 is a complete coincidence?

You will excuse anything.

And you'll make up anything. You literally noted Carnifexes are 2 to a box. Why aren't they forced to 2 models like spawn? You won't even deal with your own logical inconsistencies.

Oh goodness me terrible GW making it easier to create units.

Are people really mad that Spawns are no longer solo?

Because there is ton of other stuff in the datasheets I find problems with and the spawn thing is not one of them.

 Eldarsif wrote:
Are people really mad that Spawns are no longer solo?

No - mad that you can't take 5.

Maybe there will be detachments down the line where Spawns are BATTLELINE? idk

I'm new to CSM (first time I have models to make an army with), and I'm trying to juggle a Tcheentzian build with cultists, mutants/torments, daemons of tzeentch, and Tzaangor looking Beastmen. Some Spawns as well, why not.. I just hope I can make it all fieldable in some form or another.

EDIT: Looks pretty good I think! If I'm reading this right, I can have daemons and CSM, but unsure if I could also squeeze in a Tzaangor Shaman as my leader in there somehow.. can you combine datasheets from all 3 indexes somehow? And if so, which detachment can you take and still have access to all 3?

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:
Are people really mad that Spawns are no longer solo?

No - mad that you can't take 5.

Alrighty then...

https://www.warhammer-community.com/wp-content/uploads/2023/06/5I1cNt3t71dfd3jh.pdf

Chaos Knights have wandered in late.


You're free to add a Titanic Knight or 3 Wardogs to any chaos army.


Oh, wow. I love the theme of this detachment. There's some hands down amazing stuff here.
Terrorshades and Knights of Shade are really cool.

Just the choice to take them in units that aren't locked to the box number would be nice.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And you'll make up anything.

And I haven't made anything up.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
You literally noted Carnifexes are 2 to a box. Why aren't they forced to 2 models like spawn? You won't even deal with your own logical inconsistencies.

It's not a logical inconsistency. Do you think the limit of 2 is coincidence? And we had another example brought in, Oblits at 2-4. Weird... why min 2? What possible reason could that be.

The argument is that these are boxed-based limitations. You've done nothing to show that this isn't the case, and we have not one not two but THREE examples of this in rapid succession.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Oh goodness me terrible GW making it easier to create units.

And now you're moving those goalposts. Your first reasoning was it was because their rules would make units higher than 2 too powerful, now it's about "easy to create units". Please...

They are two to a unit because they are two to a box. That is it. That is the end of it.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
If you look at AoS one thing GW has been pushing is smaller army sizes and minimum unit formations. AoS right now at 2K points you can only make 2 full units of troops. Every other unit will have to be minimum counts (ergo 1 box content).

And the day Reinforcement Points make their way into 40k is the day I stop playing 40k.

In a sense I don't dislike reinforcement points as a concept.
I do think its an attempt to have some kind of force organisation without having force organisation.

I do feel like its a very heavy hand and that it really needs to be more dynamic. For example armies like Skaven should be able to field more full regiments of clan rats; compared to an army like Stormcast which can far more happily operate with minimum unit compositions.

Even within an army I think there should be more divisoin, but part of this is limited by the fact that GW designed AoS unit organisation in a very simplistic way.

Leaders
Troops
Monsters
Artillery

That's it, not even a breakdown for cavalry nor elites. There's also redundancy as a lot of armies have nothing in artillery and a few have monsters only as leaders. So it means a LOT of every army is just shunted into troops which functionally don't have any limits nor restrictions on them. Which is nice in some ways, but GW could do more. ]



If reinforcement points game to 40K it would break armies like Tyranid swarm armies unless it had variable limitations per army. Then again I think AoS got hit heavier because its still "new" and its no way near as popular as 40K. So its in a growth phase and GW is pushing harder. I also think that its part of a move to make AoS slightly more skirmish in feel so that when old world hits it feels more rank and file with big infantry blocks and such. So that visually, gameplay wise and all the two games are quite distinct in the market.

I think that's something GW is doing without saying it so that both games have a chance to shine in their own way and not compete directly on every single front save for the base shape.

If you recall where this started :

Thank God Spawn are capped at 2 models for a unit. Can you imagine the unintended interaction that could've happened otherwise?

And I noted that they got a lot better. And you said they're only 2 due to the box size, because you like to complain. They could easily do 2-4 spawn like with Obliterators. Or they could even have done 1-4 in a similar fashion to Carnifexes. But all you care about is complaining that it's a single box. I'm talking outside of that boundary, because it would make for a really durable unit that you can take a lot of and I find 2 models to be fine.

That they're size 2 is helpful, because of the box thing. The box thing ISN'T the only reason that they're limited to 2.

That comment was a facetious comment.

They're 2 to a unit because they're 2 to a box. There are other box-based restrictions creeping into this edition. This isn't the first. This won't be the last (and we've shown two others... hell even the Jakhals are like this!). Your attempts to make it out as anything else, and that my comments are just "because I like to complain" are pretty hilarious.

But back to the reason we're here, the datasheets:

1. The Juggerlord can join Eightbound and 'Zerkers. That's interesting.
2. I like the Precision on the Fatecaster bows. I know they did something similar in 9th, but it's an interesting niche.
3. I wondered where Fire Frenzy has gone. It's on the WE Helbrute.
4. Whilst I don't know why ever unit needs a special rule ("Simple, not simplistic" really was, as put by someone else earlier in the thread, marketing BS), I do kind of a appreciate that the Legion vehicles/daemon engines have their own little bit of flavour.
5. I really like the Bastion of Corruption rule on the Knight Tyrant.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
Gah! Exalted on disc is different, but Ahriman is not....


Automatically Appended Next Post:
But Magnus is a boss!

Ahriman has extra toughness or wound on a disc I can't remember which one now.

CSM look half decent overall. Nothing broken broken but allot of synergy to play around with. Thousand Sons and World Eaters look respectable, especially the former but this is all from only an initial read.

Death Guard have a couple of interesting interactions. Helbrutes bestowing Contagion (and therefore nurgle's gift) upon anything they hit (hit, not wound) makes them a great choice for firing first and weakening some priority targets.

Having a "Buffing DP" and a "Fighty DP" is interesting, and might incentivise people taking a walking prince to get access to some sweet, sweet FnP (I foresee a Living Plague Buffprince being very popular)

Thank the Grandfather that we have the Biologis Putrifier to bestow Lethal Hits upon...checks notes just Plague Marines, who have that on most of theor weapons anyway. Good job dude. At least triggering on 5s is a plus

DR at 2 CP is crazy expensive, I can only see it being used in desperate situations, especially as it's only effective in the Fight phase.

Oh, and they just straight-up deleted Death Guard Possessed, guess they can stand alongside Havocs in Nurgle's Garden of the dispossessed. Thank god we kept Death Guard Cultists though, the much-praised unit vital to the core of every DG list! All hail the goddamn cultists

Overall another disappointing showing by Death Guard, the army that always fails to deliver ever since they got their own book.

Death Guard: It's not if they'll suck, it's how they'll suck (tm)

They're 2 to a unit, because it's a box and also because they may have felt like allowing up to 4 ( as I do ) would be a bit much.

If it was 1-5 you'd be sure to complain that GW makes you buy another box unlike Carnifexes. If it was 1-4 or 2-4 you'd complain that you can't take as many as before. That it's 2 let's you complain that it's restricted to a box AND it's less than before. Win-win!

Complaining about box restrictions is utterly pointless. We've been limited to 10 marines in a lot of places for a very long time. That's ONE BOX. OH NO! So either your complaint goes beyond the box thing or you're just making an issue out of this one, because you want to jump on the wagon and not consider ANY other factor.

So if you bought the Tide of Spawn box back in the day you can just go get fethed? Or is there something I'm missing?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Chaos is here...

*cracks neck*

Let's see what they fethed up...

6. No. Fething. Jump. Pack.

Yep my Obsidius Mallex with a jump-pack will continue to collect dust. I guess I shouldn't complain, WE aren't allowed to have a Chaos Lord on foot.

10. Oh good. The Exalted Champ is back to being that one choice with zero options. x3

At least he didn't disappear

20. Hey look, Traitor Guardsmen and Beastmen as part of the general rules. That's nice.

This is extremely cool and I'm almost surprsied they did it. Let's hope they survive till the codex.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That comment was a facetious comment.

hard to tell considering the constant bitching and moaning you've been spewing nonstop since reveals started

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That comment was a facetious comment.

hard to tell considering the constant bitching and moaning you've been spewing nonstop since reveals started

To be fair to HBMC, I believe he has been complaining about the game since 3rd edition got released.

To some of us, it is just a hobby, to him, complaining about 40k is a way of life.

 Tyran wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
That comment was a facetious comment.

hard to tell considering the constant bitching and moaning you've been spewing nonstop since reveals started

To be fair to HBMC, I think he has been complaining about the game since 3rd edition got released

yeah but before spoiler season it was bearable, now its giga turbo 2 electric boogaloo levels of complaining

 Abadabadoobaddon wrote:
So if you bought the Tide of Spawn box back in the day you can just go get fethed? Or is there something I'm missing?

I guess? No more than people who bought X number of Hive Tyrants before the Rule of 3 showed up. Anyway, I concede. This discussion won't get anyone anywhere.