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 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally...

I really like the core rules. I think that, with a few exceptions (Desperate Breakout) they make a fantastic base for the new game.

The Datasheets are a bit all over the place, but there are some armies that seem to have their gak together (Necrons look like a wonderfully synergistic army!), and there are some that make my blood boil (the Carnifex entry).

And then they go and do... this!

 Insularum wrote:
This is going to be annoying for everyone, but incredibly so for players of factions with few units to choose from.

Just had a go at mocking up a World Eaters list to 2k, seems like it's just a case of spamming enhancements to round the list off as there are no incremental small cost units.

Yeah I was worried about this, they got rid of PL but are taking the same concept to points by making wargear free and buying units in chunks. WE and other smaller half-finished codexes have
this the hardest since there's so few units to work with.

Gojiratoho wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:

 Gojiratoho wrote:
Making the unit upgrades free and having squad sizes priced out in increments is likely at least partly influenced by streamlining their upcoming army builder app.

if their army builder app cant handle weapons costs, its a gak app.

I mean, their last one was, so I can only imagine their new one will be as well.

Can't wait to see how much the new app costs (It requires a Warhammer+ subscription )

 Daedalus81 wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
It will lead to community/tournament points lists, right? Right now, this is basically unplayable on a competitive level, and if GW won't provide, somebody (i.e. somebody not part of their 'World Championship' programme) is going to set a points standard?

I don't think that is true. It could be playable, but you'll NEED those upgrades on your models.

At tournaments, every unit will just end up looking the same equipment-wise; maximum/best wargear options possible. Non-tournament games will attempt to follow suit, with "hardcore" players with more money and time converting their models to the latest "all the best gear" paradigm. Players like myself who have built up armies over the years and have no desire to reconvert/add wargear options to older models will likely just not play.

People saying "this is just like AOS" don't seem to understand that any unit options in AOS are side-grades; very rarely is one option significantly better than another (and many units do not have any options). Despite what the devs say, weapon/wargear options in 40k are typically not side-grades, and one or more options are always better than other options (ex. plasma vs. bolt pistols; power swords vs. chainswords).

Laziness, ineptitude, or whatever, this is definitely a half-assed attempt to bring 40k in line with AOS, but without any real work to make "options" on par with others, let alone allowing for a bare-bones unit with no options taken to remain competitive. So much for building "your dudes" as you see fit, as the game now pushes you to use every option included in the box kit. But even then, some units' rules (ex. Scourges) go against this "what's in the box" mentality and allow you to take four of a single weapon type when only one weapon of each weapon type is included in the box. Inconsistency makes for bad gaming.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally...

I really like the core rules. I think that, with a few exceptions (Desperate Breakout) they make a fantastic base for the new game.

The Datasheets are a bit all over the place, but there are some armies that seem to have their gak together (Necrons look like a wonderfully synergistic army!), and there are some that make my blood boil (the Carnifex entry).

And then they go and do... this!

And the missions seem like they'll be good? No idea though. Gonna try them tonight. Wasn't the GT pack supposed to come today, too?

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally....

Neutral is an understatement.
I went from the usual kind of excitement for a new edition to come out to a sense of hate about what they've done.
Not because it directly detracts something from me (I can keep playing older editions, like 9th), but because I know it will take months or years before they reverse this idiotic decision.

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally....

Pretty much the same for me.

have found if you print the cost sheets off you can peal off the bit where it says "points" and find under it there is scribbled out writing saying "power level"

Justyn wrote:

Whirlwind...125
Predators 130/135.
Vindicator 205!!!!

Did you miss that the Vindi has higher toughness, a better save, and can fire its gun while in melee, AT the victims it is in melee with?

I did miss the save. Preds can fire in melee as well, and the toughness value will almost never matter. I can't think of a single weapon offhand that has a S11, and S10 is fairly rare due to the way they 'boosted' AT weapons to compensate for vehicle toughness.. Against S9 or S12 (most AT weapons) they're exactly the same.

It does have a good gun. I'm just not sure its worth 150% of a predator, or ~140% more than gladiators.

So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

 Daedalus81 wrote:
And the missions seem like they'll be good? No idea though. Gonna try them tonight. Wasn't the GT pack supposed to come today, too?

You mean, like the card deck? Yeah, I'm looking forward to that. I have both the 8th and 9th Open War, and the 9th Tempest of War decks. They're great! I love how dynamic they make the game.

But these points... no, sorry, I'm not calling them that anymore. They're Power Level 2.0. That's all they are. Bad word time: They're as slowed as Power Level was originally, only now they're trying to piss on our collective legs and tell us it's raining. Gaslighting us into thinking they're doing us a favour by making the game easier because "points" have been revised.

It's a load of nonsense. They are liars.

Now.... I don't actually play very often, and I *love* crapping on GW.....

However, not that anyone will listen, try to keep in mind that all this stuff is just the free crap to get everyone on the table a.s.a.p. in the new edition.

There is hope, not much, but some hope that things will get levelled out over the edition. Although who knows how long that will be, lol

 Aenar wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally....

Neutral is an understatement.
I went from the usual kind of excitement for a new edition to come out to a sense of hate about what they've done.
Not because it directly detracts something from me (I can keep playing older editions, like 9th), but because I know it will take months or years before they reverse this idiotic decision.

Same. Thought I might be able to go back to getting regular games in, as people don't want to try anything not GW (as per usual). Some of the baffling things I could cope with, my armies are big enough already that some "what's in the box" things might not affect me as much as someone else, but the free upgrades, the datasheets clearly written by someone that has no grasp on the rules and the utterly idiotic attempt to pass these off as point for what is supposed to be the top dog wargame out there? No way Jose.

Hopefully this'll cause an exodus to OPR locally as this is just GW serving up a gak sandwich and telling you to eat it.

 oni wrote:
So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

Points will be handled separately from dexes. I would not count on this at all.

 Gnarlly wrote:

People saying "this is just like AOS" don't seem to understand that any unit options in AOS are side-grades; very rarely is one option significantly better than another (and many units do not have any options). Despite what the devs say, weapon/wargear options in 40k are typically not side-grades, and one or more options are always better than other options (ex. plasma vs. bolt pistols; power swords vs. chainswords)..

Not to excuse all this, and for ranged weapons its true, but even the non-consolidated melee weapons are actually closer to being sidegrades now. Even when they aren't, power swords aren't winning that run-off.

It does have a good gun. I'm just not sure its worth 150% of a predator, or ~140% more than gladiators.

True enough.

 TalonZahn wrote:
However, not that anyone will listen, try to keep in mind that all this stuff is just the free crap to get everyone on the table a.s.a.p. in the new edition.

I'd love to believe you, but they did just give us a whole article talking about how this new system is so much better and makes things easier for everyone. That makes me think that the first Codex hitting isn't going to be "Lolz, sorry, but really things are back to the way they were!".

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

Points will be handled separately from dexes. I would not count on this at all.

Seriously. 'It will be different with codexes' needs to stop. This is the game now and going forward.

Here is the design team doubling down:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/06/16/get-all-of-your-points-for-free-with-the-first-munitorum-field-manual-of-new40k/

Note the use of the terms 'agonise' and 'worry.' 'Better guns' don't even exist as far as this team is concerned.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
However, not that anyone will listen, try to keep in mind that all this stuff is just the free crap to get everyone on the table a.s.a.p. in the new edition.

I'd love to believe you, but they did just give us a whole article talking about how this new system is so much better and makes things easier for everyone. That makes me think that the first Codex hitting isn't going to be "Lolz, sorry, but really things are back to the way they were!".

I know, because hope is the first step to disappointment, lol!

Voss wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

Points will be handled separately from dexes. I would not count on this at all.

Seriously. 'It will be different with codexes' needs to stop. This is the game now and going forward.

"jUsT wAiT aNd SeE!"

 oni wrote:
So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

Meh. I see no issue with "wargear being free", since it's basically always been "take the best and call it a day" whenever reading lists built around here.

Personally? I'm okay with the points. It feels like an attempt has been made to match more or less with AoS, where someone can reasonably field a wide selection of stuff without having to force it at 3k points or whatever.

 Grimtuff wrote:

Hopefully this'll cause an exodus to OPR locally as this is just GW serving up a gak sandwich and telling you to eat it.

well OPR did just come out with community lists so we very well might see some that are more "fluffy" pop up.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 VladimirHerzog wrote:
So pretty crazy how fast i went from being hyped about a new edition to being completely neutral towards it, i'm not so dissapointed that i have real-life stuff to do this weekend instead of trying it out finally...

I really like the core rules. I think that, with a few exceptions (Desperate Breakout) they make a fantastic base for the new game.

The Datasheets are a bit all over the place, but there are some armies that seem to have their gak together (Necrons look like a wonderfully synergistic army!), and there are some that make my blood boil (the Carnifex entry).

And then they go and do... this!

It's a good core with a horrible design philosophy. My hope is they either go further and simply units to the point of generic SHOOT and STAB profiles totally divorced from equipment (like the last version of apocalypse) or preferably that they take this nice core and drop late-3rd ed philosophy unit/weapons/points onto it.

My fear is that units are going to remain just as inconsistent but the point lists are updated to read like this:

Tactical squad with flamer and lascannon: 200pts
Tactical squad with flamer and plasma cannon: 205pts
Tactical squad with flamer and missile launcher: 265pts
Tactical squad with flamer and missile launcher on Tuesday, if including at least one INQUISITOR model in your army painted BLUE (because JEFFBRO_45 rolled all 6s in that last tournament on Tuesday and he had an Inquisitor painted blue): 268pts

@Voss: Hmmm... Yup, the WarCom article pretty much says it all. Damn.

 oni wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

Points will be handled separately from dexes. I would not count on this at all.

Correct. I just wasn't clear. I'm hopeful we'll get a Munitorum Field Manual v2.0 when codexes start coming, but it may be wishful thinking.

They honestly can't wait that long. The philosophy is gonna stay, and we can't do anything about that, but some of these points are just _wrong_.
Melee tyranid warriors are more expensive than ranged warriors. Some things are better but cost the same as similar units (in the same codex even), other things are just way outside the boundaries set by everything else.

They've gotta do damage control way before autumn.

My main issue with the points (other than them seemingly being a bit all over the place*) is the stupid decision to force units to be either min-size or max-size - except for the units where they can be more or less any size, for some effing reason.

This will make list-building harder for no good reason. Absolutely no good reason. -_-
What's wrong with simply having the previous system of "XX pts per model, unitsize Y-Z"?

(*Redemptor and Brutalis Dreads being 220/225 pts and then the Ballistus is 170...
Regular Dreads being 160(!) and then we have stuff like Carnifexes and Haruspexes being 120/125 pts, etc etc.)

I’m a heavy lol with this as 10th is a half assed edition for me, so GW has met my expectations perfectly! 😂😂

“The points cost of a unit’s weapons and wargear are now incorporated into the cost of that unit – there’s no longer any need to count up all the individual weapon loadouts and do a bunch of arithmetic just to determine the total points cost of one individual unit. This makes mustering an army much simpler, and much quicker. It also frees people to make the units they’ve always wanted to, using all the coolest bits found on the kits without having to worry about spiralling points costs."

This reads like the sort of thing which would be 'pitched' to executives who don't actually play the game and so would see it only as positive and that Mr C***dace has done wonders by simplifying the game and allowing the hobbyists to indulge their desire for cool stuff on their models without worrying! The hobbyists will be free to spend more money on more kits! Win-win!

Meanwhile we who actually play the game know it doesn't work like that and can immediately see what a terrible awful idea it is in 40k (granted it may work better in AoS).

Very disappointing. Will take a lot of getting used to!

 Kanluwen wrote:

 oni wrote:
So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

Meh. I see no issue with "wargear being free", since it's basically always been "take the best and call it a day" whenever reading lists built around here.

Personally? I'm okay with the points. It feels like an attempt has been made to match more or less with AoS, where someone can reasonably field a wide selection of stuff without having to force it at 3k points or whatever.

This approach could have been improved by orders of magnitude if at least some upgrades, especially squad-level heavy weapons, had just '+10 pts each' tacked onto it. Nobody was expecting perfect balance, but at least acknowledge that e.g. a flamer and a plasma gun have vastly different average usefulness, and an additional Lascannon over a bolter is worth something.

 MinscS2 wrote:
My main issue with the points (other than them seemingly being a bit all over the place*) is the stupid decision to force units to be either min-size or max-size - except for the units where they can be more or less any size, for some effing reason.

This will make list-building harder for no good reason. Absolutely no good reason. -_-
What's wrong with simply having the previous system of "XX pts per model, unitsize Y-Z"?

(*Redemptor and Brutalis Dreads being 220/225 pts and then the Ballistus is 170...
Regular Dreads being 160(!) and then we have stuff like Carnifexes and Haruspexes being 120/125 pts, etc etc.)

Those point difference make sense to me. Fexes are softer. Allowing variable size units messes with what upgrades can be taken and makes it harder to balance. Whether or not they'll balance it well remains to be seen.

Voss wrote:

 oni wrote:

 Daedalus81 wrote:

 oni wrote:
So... I like unit points being in blocks of models. This is how I've always thought it should be. However, all wargear being free is above and beyond moronic.

I suppose there is a small chance and I sincerely hope that we will see the return of wargear points with codexes. If not... we have a serious problem. And I do not say this out of emotion. I am legitimately concerned.

Points will be handled separately from dexes. I would not count on this at all.

Correct. I just wasn't clear. I'm hopeful we'll get a Munitorum Field Manual v2.0 when codexes start coming, but it may be wishful thinking.

They honestly can't wait that long. The philosophy is gonna stay, and we can't do anything about that, but some of these points are just _wrong_.
Melee tyranid warriors are more expensive than ranged warriors. Some things are better but cost the same as similar units (in the same codex even), other things are just way outside the boundaries set by everything else.

They've gotta do damage control way before autumn.

Tacoma Open, on the 14th of July, is the first 'Grand Tournament' style event with a GW presence, part of the World Series or whatever they call it, using all rules published until July 7th, so full 10th edition rules. That is gonna be wild.