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Does anyone have any clue how much the cards are going to cost? Knowing GW. I can see them being pretty pricy

 triplegrim wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The points came out yesterday, it's entirely reasonable for people to have played 10th by now.

I'm playing a game tonight.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols
20 stormshield/plasma pistol jp vanguards
5 Sanguinary guards
Dante & Astorath

I gotta proxy the hell out of it, but at least everyone in each unit has the same loadout.

Played my first (of two) games today with my DA vs BA with 10 JP Death Company/Lemartes and Dante/10 Sanguinary Guard. I go first and fire 10 Desolation Marines Castellan Launchers and Vengor at the Death Company. With Oath of the Moment, Dev Doctrine (Gladius Detachment), and Bolter Discipline enhancement, 10 Death Company got picked up. Turn 2, rinse and repeat vs the Sanguinary Guard. We called the game bottom of turn 2.

Second game the BA player swapped out the JP DC and Sanginary Guard for assault elements in Impulsors and and additional Drop Pod. Game was much closer.

We are under the initial impression that jump pack Marines are over costed, especially considering how fly interacts with terrain. Hope your game fares better.

 bullyboy wrote:
Does anyone have any clue how much the cards are going to cost? Knowing GW. I can see them being pretty pricy

The real question is: will the pack for Squats or World Eaters cost the same as the pack for Generic Space Marines?

 Sarigar wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The points came out yesterday, it's entirely reasonable for people to have played 10th by now.

I'm playing a game tonight.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols
20 stormshield/plasma pistol jp vanguards
5 Sanguinary guards
Dante & Astorath

I gotta proxy the hell out of it, but at least everyone in each unit has the same loadout.

Played my first (of two) games today with my DA vs BA with 10 JP Death Company/Lemartes and Dante/10 Sanguinary Guard. I go first and fire 10 Desolation Marines Castellan Launchers and Vengor at the Death Company. With Oath of the Moment, Dev Doctrine (Gladius Detachment), and Bolter Discipline enhancement, 10 Death Company got picked up. Turn 2, rinse and repeat vs the Sanguinary Guard. We called the game bottom of turn 2.

Second game the BA player swapped out the JP DC and Sanginary Guard for assault elements in Impulsors and and additional Drop Pod. Game was much closer.

We are under the initial impression that jump pack Marines are over costed, especially considering how fly interacts with terrain. Hope your game fares better.

Honestly, I think DC marines are being charged for their options, and assault marines are being charged for their ability to do mortal wounds outside the Fight sequence. It may well still be too much, but that's actually pretty big.

I suspect the problem with your first game is Desolation Marines. They're just unreasonable, and the solution isn't points. They just shouldn't have a two part gun. The solution is deleting the castellan launcher and just making the gun an alt fire weapon with superfrag and superkrak as the two options. That's honestly enough for a whole unit of 'more better' missile launchers.

I suppose what happened was they split the factions between authors to update from 9th to 10th.

The lazy dev just looked at the basic points per model and said okay, a unit of 10 costs that much x10. Creating a unit where any previously expensive upgrades are free.

The diligent dev looked at what the most expensive loadout for a unit was and set that for its base cost, so you're always paying for all the upgrades.

We've seen the same sort of thing where factions somehow fall into different tiers of design quality every single time a bunch of factions are made at once (Apocalypse, Warcry, Heresy...)

Played Eldar v Space Wolves twice yesterday. Decided to try some of the big offenders to see how big of a deal they are.

Wraithknight with a Farseer is bonkers. People are going to need indirect fire to get rid of the Farseer so the Eldar player can't farm 6s from their dice pool. I also think Fate dice will eventually be changed to "Modified dice" so it can't proc devastating wounds or that you can only use one Fate Dice per phase. In one turn a single wraithknight was throwing out 25 mortal wounds because I used Fate Dice. So basically the Wraithknight will kill everything it takes interest in. Almost feel like I am back in 6th.

Avatar is a power house, but can be played around. I actually think he is at the sweet spot of being correct. If he charges he sets the pace and kills. he can be whittled down by ranged fire.

Support weapons aren't as egregious as Wraithknights, and their very short range means the opponent can attempt to take it out before getting into range. When they hit they deal damage, but since they don't have an invuln, only toughness 6 and 4+ save they can be taken out.

Tried Autarch Wayleaper. He was "alright", but I also gave him the box version setup. He is nice to have, but I ended up switching him out.

Farseer is super nice and nobody should ever leave their home without one.

Eldrad was alright as well. His extra 3 Strands of Fate dice is super good, and his Doom is also nice, but overall I feel like I need to relearn him. I'd say he is appropriately costed and that it is the farseer turning dice to 6s that enables his abilities. Can't really imagine many Eldar lists without him though.

Solitaire. He is a beast and with Fate Dice he can survive like champ. he can be a very nice harasser and point capper. He did go into a large SW Terminator blob and survived 2 rounds of slapping before leaving combat with 1 wound. Since he only has 3 wounds I'd say that he is a pure glass cannon that gets killed if he fails a single save.

Dark Reapers. I took 2 x 5 Dark Reapers with Tempest gun. These were my work horses in doing the mission and dealing some damage. They do suffer from Indirect, but their range and damage at 75 points is super nice. Plus their hit can't be modified(unless you want to) so they are always hitting on 3s. I honestly kind of loved them and I feel like people are dismissing them too easily.

Fire Prism is in a nice place. They are easily killed with focused fire(and especially with oath of moment) so I am not sure if they really need a point adjustment. It wouldn't be a big point change I imagine.

I've been reading the rules around fate dice. I think the argument could be made that a farseer's 6 is a modified dice. The original roll counts as the unmodified roll, but the farseer is stated as changing the dice roll. I can see the counter argument, but both positions seem to have validity.

The wording of Strands of Fate calls out that:
"The dice that is being substituted is not rolled; instead, the value of the selected Fate dice is used as if it had been rolled (this counts as an unmodified dice roll of that value for all rules purposes)."

Branching Fates would come into play before this point in the sequence, so I don't think it messes with this being explicitly and unmodified dice roll - especially when "unmodified dice roll" is defined as "what you got on the dice before modifiers".

 Dysartes wrote:
The wording of Strands of Fate calls out that:
"The dice that is being substituted is not rolled; instead, the value of the selected Fate dice is used as if it had been rolled (this counts as an unmodified dice roll of that value for all rules purposes)."

Branching Fates would come into play before this point in the sequence, so I don't think it messes with this being explicitly and unmodified dice roll - especially when "unmodified dice roll" is defined as "what you got on the dice before modifiers".

Isn't that literally the exact same problem the 9th edition Votann had with their judgement token stuff before the revision? I.e. these abilities are way too powerful and we know it from precedence? Would make sense to revise them in the exact same way, i.e. it still is a six and an auto-hit, but does not proc other abilities.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
The wording of Strands of Fate calls out that:
"The dice that is being substituted is not rolled; instead, the value of the selected Fate dice is used as if it had been rolled (this counts as an unmodified dice roll of that value for all rules purposes)."

Branching Fates would come into play before this point in the sequence, so I don't think it messes with this being explicitly and unmodified dice roll - especially when "unmodified dice roll" is defined as "what you got on the dice before modifiers".

Isn't that literally the exact same problem the 9th edition Votann had with their judgement token stuff before the revision? I.e. these abilities are way too powerful and we know it from precedence? Would make sense to revise them in the exact same way, i.e. it still is a six and an auto-hit, but does not proc other abilities.

Yeah give it a month of so and they will probably do the first balance pass so some of the worst offenders might get looked at now that people are playing it.

Also sadly shows how little they actually learn form edition to edition...

 lord_blackfang wrote:
The diligent dev looked at what the most expensive loadout for a unit was and set that for its base cost, so you're always paying for all the upgrades.

No, that's still lazy. Just a different kind of lazy.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Also sadly shows how little they actually learn form edition to edition...

Like I've been saying since the 10th Ed reveals started: They don't iterate. They attempt to reinvent the wheel every time, learning nothing from what came before.

 lord_blackfang wrote:
I suppose what happened was they split the factions between authors to update from 9th to 10th.

The lazy dev just looked at the basic points per model and said okay, a unit of 10 costs that much x10. Creating a unit where any previously expensive upgrades are free.

The diligent dev looked at what the most expensive loadout for a unit was and set that for its base cost, so you're always paying for all the upgrades.

This is implausible because for example the Astra Militarium Index has both "lazy dev points" like the Infantry Squad and "diligent dev points" like the Leman Russ.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Also sadly shows how little they actually learn form edition to edition...

Like I've been saying since the 10th Ed reveals started: They don't iterate. They attempt to reinvent the wheel every time, learning nothing from what came before.

My bet is that the churn of developers is high. Means that there is no "tribal" knowledge to go back on.

"But they have Phil Kelly, Cruddace, and Stu!"

They are probably more managers now than active developers on the lower end of rules.

 Eldarsif wrote:

My bet is that the churn of developers is high. Means that there is no "tribal" knowledge to go back on.

Which if true, would still be insane. If you're hiring a supposedly professional games designer, they should be intimately acquainted with the NINE previous attempts are your ruleset.

How else are they going to punish units for the sins of prior editions if they don’t study the past? Those giant pendulum swings of the neft bat don’t happen all by themselves!

That's genetic memory. They always have that.

 Eldarsif wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:
Also sadly shows how little they actually learn form edition to edition...

Like I've been saying since the 10th Ed reveals started: They don't iterate. They attempt to reinvent the wheel every time, learning nothing from what came before.

My bet is that the churn of developers is high. Means that there is no "tribal" knowledge to go back on.

"But they have Phil Kelly, Cruddace, and Stu!"

They are probably more managers now than active developers on the lower end of rules.

Does Phil Kelly even do rules anymore? I though he moved across to the lore team a while ago.

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Eldarsif wrote:

My bet is that the churn of developers is high. Means that there is no "tribal" knowledge to go back on.

Which if true, would still be insane. If you're hiring a supposedly professional games designer, they should be intimately acquainted with the NINE previous attempts are your ruleset.

That depends entirely on pay. If you are hiring fresh people because you don't want to pay proper wages you get what you pay for. We are also talking about a large ruleset where there is no sunsetting so people can easily be blindsided by rules interaction. Especially if the developers are fresh people.

I mean, GW is famously cheap when it comes to paying for stuff. I mean, there were developers who applied for the mobile app project and refused immediately when they were shown the wages. Don't expect that kind of company to attract high end talent for long.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Matt.Kingsley wrote:

Does Phil Kelly even do rules anymore? I though he moved across to the lore team a while ago.

I think you are right, now that I think about it.

 triplegrim wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The points came out yesterday, it's entirely reasonable for people to have played 10th by now.

I'm playing a game tonight.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols
20 stormshield/plasma pistol jp vanguards
5 Sanguinary guards
Dante & Astorath

I gotta proxy the hell out of it, but at least everyone in each unit has the same loadout.

Annoyingly, Vanguard vets can't take both shields and plasma pistols, its an either or swap for the bolt pistol. Not that Vanguard are that good value now anyway tbh.

Do you want that unit be teethless in melee anyway?

Voss wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The points came out yesterday, it's entirely reasonable for people to have played 10th by now.

I'm playing a game tonight.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols
20 stormshield/plasma pistol jp vanguards
5 Sanguinary guards
Dante & Astorath

I gotta proxy the hell out of it, but at least everyone in each unit has the same loadout.

Played my first (of two) games today with my DA vs BA with 10 JP Death Company/Lemartes and Dante/10 Sanguinary Guard. I go first and fire 10 Desolation Marines Castellan Launchers and Vengor at the Death Company. With Oath of the Moment, Dev Doctrine (Gladius Detachment), and Bolter Discipline enhancement, 10 Death Company got picked up. Turn 2, rinse and repeat vs the Sanguinary Guard. We called the game bottom of turn 2.

Second game the BA player swapped out the JP DC and Sanginary Guard for assault elements in Impulsors and and additional Drop Pod. Game was much closer.

We are under the initial impression that jump pack Marines are over costed, especially considering how fly interacts with terrain. Hope your game fares better.

Honestly, I think DC marines are being charged for their options, and assault marines are being charged for their ability to do mortal wounds outside the Fight sequence. It may well still be too much, but that's actually pretty big.

I suspect the problem with your first game is Desolation Marines. They're just unreasonable, and the solution isn't points. They just shouldn't have a two part gun. The solution is deleting the castellan launcher and just making the gun an alt fire weapon with superfrag and superkrak as the two options. That's honestly enough for a whole unit of 'more better' missile launchers.

The 10 Sanguinary Guard that were destroyed in a single volley were 430 points. Then, add in Dante (which got shot afterwards in our game).

DC with Jump Packs were expensive (don't recall exactly) and had all the upgrades.

The two squads and two characters were @ 1000 points out of a 2000 point army.

Oath of the Moment plays a significant factor against expensive units like this. Desolation Marines did a lot of work both games but target selection for their indirect fire was less efficient facing an MSU/transport list.

After some tweaks, the BA army looked like a Primaris version of 3rd and/or 5th edition BA Rhino/Razorback rush supported by Predator tanks. What was old is new again I suppose

 Sarigar wrote:

Voss wrote:

 Sarigar wrote:

 triplegrim wrote:

 Gert wrote:

The points came out yesterday, it's entirely reasonable for people to have played 10th by now.

I'm playing a game tonight.

I'm bringing 30 JP Death Company, 30 powerfists and 30 inferno pistols
20 stormshield/plasma pistol jp vanguards
5 Sanguinary guards
Dante & Astorath

I gotta proxy the hell out of it, but at least everyone in each unit has the same loadout.

Played my first (of two) games today with my DA vs BA with 10 JP Death Company/Lemartes and Dante/10 Sanguinary Guard. I go first and fire 10 Desolation Marines Castellan Launchers and Vengor at the Death Company. With Oath of the Moment, Dev Doctrine (Gladius Detachment), and Bolter Discipline enhancement, 10 Death Company got picked up. Turn 2, rinse and repeat vs the Sanguinary Guard. We called the game bottom of turn 2.

Second game the BA player swapped out the JP DC and Sanginary Guard for assault elements in Impulsors and and additional Drop Pod. Game was much closer.

We are under the initial impression that jump pack Marines are over costed, especially considering how fly interacts with terrain. Hope your game fares better.

Honestly, I think DC marines are being charged for their options, and assault marines are being charged for their ability to do mortal wounds outside the Fight sequence. It may well still be too much, but that's actually pretty big.

I suspect the problem with your first game is Desolation Marines. They're just unreasonable, and the solution isn't points. They just shouldn't have a two part gun. The solution is deleting the castellan launcher and just making the gun an alt fire weapon with superfrag and superkrak as the two options. That's honestly enough for a whole unit of 'more better' missile launchers.

The 10 Sanguinary Guard that were destroyed in a single volley were 430 points. Then, add in Dante (which got shot afterwards in our game).

DC with Jump Packs were expensive (don't recall exactly) and had all the upgrades.

The two squads and two characters were @ 1000 points out of a 2000 point army.

Oath of the Moment plays a significant factor against expensive units like this. Desolation Marines did a lot of work both games but target selection for their indirect fire was less efficient facing an MSU/transport list.

After some tweaks, the BA army looked like a Primaris version of 3rd and/or 5th edition BA Rhino/Razorback rush supported by Predator tanks. What was old is new again I suppose

Whole squads armed with [Blast] weapons seem like they're problematic in this edition anyway - their sheer weight of fire is already on the high side, and if you manage to glom rerolls on them, or added abilities (Barbgaunts) they can get dominating very fast.

 bullyboy wrote:
Played a 1k game today, my Eldar cs Grey Knights.

...

It’s not simpler, at all. That was a BS GW tagline.

...

Overall, I had fun first time round. Will see if it continues

I assumed that might be the case. I think the 'simplicity' comes from just needing the datasheets for the units you field, plus about 4 pages of detachment rules that include a few strats. The rules are all to hand now rather than hunting through 20 pages of codex. Of course the disadvantage is that the units themselves have more unique rules (weapon profiles etc.), so is it harder to remember your opponent's rules?

 Mr Morden wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
The wording of Strands of Fate calls out that:
"The dice that is being substituted is not rolled; instead, the value of the selected Fate dice is used as if it had been rolled (this counts as an unmodified dice roll of that value for all rules purposes)."

Branching Fates would come into play before this point in the sequence, so I don't think it messes with this being explicitly and unmodified dice roll - especially when "unmodified dice roll" is defined as "what you got on the dice before modifiers".

Isn't that literally the exact same problem the 9th edition Votann had with their judgement token stuff before the revision? I.e. these abilities are way too powerful and we know it from precedence? Would make sense to revise them in the exact same way, i.e. it still is a six and an auto-hit, but does not proc other abilities.

Yeah give it a month of so and they will probably do the first balance pass so some of the worst offenders might get looked at now that people are playing it.

Also sadly shows how little they actually learn from edition to edition...

There are 5 instances of Devastating Wounds with a Damage Characteristic above 3 in the Aeldari Index. Wraithcannons at D6 over three units, D-Cannon on the Support Battery at D6+2, and the Wraithknights Heavy wraithcannon at 2d6. Fix those interactions and I think the problem is handled.

It could be done by boosting the cost of those units or that of the Farseer as a guaranteed 6 is never unwelcome.

A better solution would be to pull back on Strands of Fate a bit by not allowing a unit to use it more than once per phase. As it currently stands, you can turn too many Hits into multiple d6s of Mortal Wounds via Devastating Wounds.

 alextroy wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 Dysartes wrote:
The wording of Strands of Fate calls out that:
"The dice that is being substituted is not rolled; instead, the value of the selected Fate dice is used as if it had been rolled (this counts as an unmodified dice roll of that value for all rules purposes)."

Branching Fates would come into play before this point in the sequence, so I don't think it messes with this being explicitly and unmodified dice roll - especially when "unmodified dice roll" is defined as "what you got on the dice before modifiers".

Isn't that literally the exact same problem the 9th edition Votann had with their judgement token stuff before the revision? I.e. these abilities are way too powerful and we know it from precedence? Would make sense to revise them in the exact same way, i.e. it still is a six and an auto-hit, but does not proc other abilities.

Yeah give it a month of so and they will probably do the first balance pass so some of the worst offenders might get looked at now that people are playing it.

Also sadly shows how little they actually learn from edition to edition...

There are 5 instances of Devastating Wounds with a Damage Characteristic above 3 in the Aeldari Index. Wraithcannons at D6 over three units, D-Cannon on the Support Battery at D6+2, and the Wraithknights Heavy wraithcannon at 2d6. Fix those interactions and I think the problem is handled.

It could be done by boosting the cost of those units or that of the Farseer as a guaranteed 6 is never unwelcome.

A better solution would be to pull back on Strands of Fate a bit by not allowing a unit to use it more than once per phase. As it currently stands, you can turn too many Hits into multiple d6s of Mortal Wounds via Devastating Wounds.

Fixing the units by making them more expensive could work, but that has its own problems, mostly due to scaling with games at different sizes. You'd need to cost them aggressively (i.e. close to their actual value), but if the unit is good enough that still means it's a must-take in larger games and a never-take in smaller ones where the cost is prohibitive. And must-takes are often a sign of bad design. In my opinion, it would be wiser to fix the Strands of Fate ability, as that definitively solves the problem, is robust to scaling, and is also automatically future-proofed in the sense that the next combo that tries to break it can't come around if it is actually fixed at root level.

As an aside, Devastating Wounds seems to be the most problematic mechanic of this edition, so far most of the theorycrafted exploits we have seen seem to revolve around it. It seems to be just too strong, as it effectively skips two-and-a-half layers of defence at once, especially if you can game it with Anti-something by some means.

I do think devastating wounds is the problem child, but the biggest problems are interaction with [Anti] and dice substitution.

I don't think GW will give it up entirely, but if its changed to only on a natural 6 and doesn't trigger off [Anti], its a lot less oppressive. Happily there's some precedent for this already in the day 2 nerf to the Death Watch Hellfire Rounds stratagem.

The biggest problem is some armies are dependent on MW for their 'all-comers' toolbox (especially anti-armor), and Devastating Wounds is the primary (and in some cases, only) mechanism.

Only a new edition can inspire THIS much salt from Dakka. Seriously guys, it is still just a game. Man dollies on a table going 'pew! pew!' at each other. We can (and will) still have a lot of fun if we can focus on having it and put criticism in the background for a few hours.

The Anti and Devastating Wounds combo is a feature not a bug. Look at the instances where it exist and it is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Haywire weapons doing Mortal Wounds to Vehicles is intended. Shieldbreaker Missiles versus Titanic is intentional. Thundercoil harpoon versus Monsters and Vehicles is intended. Even the humble Condemnor Blowgun is supposed to do Mortal Wounds to Psykers easily.

What they need to look out for are unintentional combos where you get add either Devastating Wounds to an Anti weapon or the reverse.

 alextroy wrote:
The Anti and Devastating Wounds combo is a feature not a bug. Look at the instances where it exist and it is doing exactly what it is supposed to do. Haywire weapons doing Mortal Wounds to Vehicles is intended. Shieldbreaker Missiles versus Titanic is intentional. Thundercoil harpoon versus Monsters and Vehicles is intended. Even the humble Condemnor Blowgun is supposed to do Mortal Wounds to Psykers easily.

What they need to look out for are unintentional combos where you get add either Devastating Wounds to an Anti weapon or the reverse.

Yes, i agree. The synergy is definitely intended, and the problematic cases seem to arise where you can either add Devastating Wounds on weapons that were not intended to have it (i.e. mostly high-ROF weapons, weapons with good Anti-X values, or Blast weapons) or conversely add Anti-X to stuff that already has DW baked in. Or, like in the Eldar case, manipulate the dice consistently to work in your favour and make it trigger when you want to.

 bullyboy wrote:
Does anyone have any clue how much the cards are going to cost? Knowing GW. I can see them being pretty pricy

I bought some 5x8 inch index cards (blank on both sides) at Office Max, 500 for US$6, so that. Plus however much the ink costs per page.

The cards in the files are 5x7.5 inches for some reason. It doesn't seem to be any of the standard European A5 or A6 sizes either so I have no idea why they picked that. My printer can't do borderless so there's about a 1/8-1/4 inch white border around it but otherwise they look fine.