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So it seems GW has realized it can't compete with Battlescribe or Wahpedia and has decided to just burn everything down by making the "free" versions so awful.

Whether they'll fix things in the Codex/future Munitorium is to be seen, or if they've finally given up for real. Even if GW "fixes" the situation, the monthly Codex releases (and its flip-flopping on which direction to take the rules system - "Do we want balanced or over-the-top this month?") and GWs inability to write tight, balanced rules in the first place doesn't bode well for the state of the game for the short life of 10th.

I'm so glad I bailed on GW's rules. Wish I'd been smart enough to have avoided buying the minis - but at least I can use them in other systems, if I choose.

 Nevelon wrote:

The logic is “if all options are balanced, we don’t need to deal with upgrade costs”

The execution (or failure thereof) is the issue.

That's NOT logical though.

How is the option to take a vox-caster for free supposed to be balanced against not taking a free vox-caster?

Damn it. Wrong thread!

 Lord Damocles wrote:

 Nevelon wrote:

The logic is “if all options are balanced, we don’t need to deal with upgrade costs”

The execution (or failure thereof) is the issue.

That's NOT logical though.

How is the option to take a vox-caster for free supposed to be balanced against not taking a free vox-caster?

the only balance there is when its taking the Vox or taking something else, and even then it needs to make some sort of logical sense why you wouldn't have both

I guess its an option for people who built without but frankly just bake it into the unit rules at this point for stuff like this

leopard wrote:


the only balance there is when its taking the Vox or taking something else, and even then it needs to make some sort of logical sense why you wouldn't have both

Because the plasma gun arms only go with the vox caster body...

 Dawnbringer wrote:

leopard wrote:


the only balance there is when its taking the Vox or taking something else, and even then it needs to make some sort of logical sense why you wouldn't have both

Because the plasma gun arms only go with the vox caster body...

seriously?

I mean... what?

It's not true either way.

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not true either way.

this is good, I had visions of a vox caster turning ear wax to plasma and firing it sideways

 H.B.M.C. wrote:


They're a multi-billion dollar company. When it comes to the miniature gaming market, GW are not the biggest fist in the pond. They are the pond. You cannot play the manpower excuse when they have a rules department whose job it is to do one thing: Write rules.

And when other great games companies like Wyrd, Covus Belli, PP etc can produce well balanced rule sets and provide all rules, cards, army building, game tracking etc in a single digital app format that is updated instantly and is either free or fairly minimal cost...... GW has no excuse for not committing part of their larger resources to doing the same.

Also, I object to the idea the GW are the pond. However, i would agree that their biggest achievement to date is persuading most people that hey are....

leopard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not true either way.

this is good, I had visions of a vox caster turning ear wax to plasma and firing it sideways

The Krieg instructions show you can build either the vox or plasma gun. Hence the restriction on the data sheet for either / or. But thanks Kanluwen for telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about...

Sunno wrote:

Also, I object to the idea the GW are the pond. However, i would agree that their biggest achievement to date is persuading most people that hey are....

GW 100% is the biggest name in the game. The odds of stores having some amount of GW products is much higher than them storing some Infinity/Malifaux/SW:Legion/etc.

I'd say GW's biggest achievement is not persuading that theyre the biggest name, more that theyre the ones offering the best system and the their cost is the average cost of wargames.

The amount of time i've tried to make people try other games and was told "Oh, it seems worse than 40k" or "Oh ,i don't wanna drop a ton of cash in a new game" is mind boggling.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not true either way.

this is good, I had visions of a vox caster turning ear wax to plasma and firing it sideways

The Krieg instructions show you can build either the vox or plasma gun. Hence the restriction on the data sheet for either / or. But thanks Kanluwen for telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about...

Yep.

For every 10 models in this unit, up to 2 Death
Korps Troopers can each have their lasgun
replaced with one of the following:*
◦ 1 flamer
◦ 1 grenade launcher
◦ 1 meltagun
◦ 1 sniper rifle

■ For every 10 models in this unit, 1 Death Korps
Trooper equipped with a lasgun can be equipped
with one of the following:
◦ 1 vox-caster (that model’s lasgun cannot be
replaced)
◦ 1 plasma gun

So for every 10 models, you get 1 choice of a plasma gun or a vox.

Apparently the training for plasma guns on krieg is a shared class with operating the Vox, and clashes with every other weapon training class.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not true either way.

this is good, I had visions of a vox caster turning ear wax to plasma and firing it sideways

The Krieg instructions show you can build either the vox or plasma gun. Hence the restriction on the data sheet for either / or. But thanks Kanluwen for telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about...

I haven’t built the kit personally, but it seems you could just put the arms on another body? I do that with skitarii and it’s fine.

 Dawnbringer wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not true either way.

this is good, I had visions of a vox caster turning ear wax to plasma and firing it sideways

The Krieg instructions show you can build either the vox or plasma gun. Hence the restriction on the data sheet for either / or. But thanks Kanluwen for telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about...

But Kan's point is that despite what the instructions say, the arms fit on other bodies.

Dandelion wrote:

I haven’t built the kit personally, but it seems you could just put the arms on another body?

You absolutely can.

 Platuan4th wrote:

 Dawnbringer wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not true either way.

this is good, I had visions of a vox caster turning ear wax to plasma and firing it sideways

The Krieg instructions show you can build either the vox or plasma gun. Hence the restriction on the data sheet for either / or. But thanks Kanluwen for telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about...

But Kan's point is that despite what the instructions say, the arms fit on other bodies.

Which doesn't matter, as the options for the unit in-game are 1 vox or plasma gun per 10 models. So if you decided to take the plasma gun arms, and put them on a different body to have a plasma gun and a vox in your ten man krieg squad? Congratulations, that unit is not legal to play as a krieg squad. You need to have a 20 model unit of kriegers to get both a plasma gun and a vox.

 Crimson wrote:

Dandelion wrote:

I haven’t built the kit personally, but it seems you could just put the arms on another body?

You absolutely can.

Ah, the tyranny of… the instructions writers? Weird

 Dawnbringer wrote:

leopard wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
It's not true either way.

this is good, I had visions of a vox caster turning ear wax to plasma and firing it sideways

The Krieg instructions show you can build either the vox or plasma gun.

Do the instructions show that you can put the "Gunner Veteran" arms for the flamer onto the "Medic Veteran" body, with no conversion work needed?

There's really just a single body/arm/head combo that's locked and that is the Demo Specialist. The instructions just show what matches the showcased models.

Hence the restriction on the data sheet for either / or.

Frankly? I doubt that's why. If it had been, they would have locked it immediately via a downloaded datasheet. It never happened.
If I were to make an assumption?

I'd assume that the datasheet was locked that way to prevent exploiting the "Fire on My Position"(Vox-Caster model dies, on a D6 roll of a 4+, every unit within 3" suffers D3 Mortal Wounds. Cult of Sacrifice[the DKoK "suggested" regimental trait via FW] reduced it from 2 to 1 CP) Epic Deed Stratagem last edition, which we know had several books delayed significantly before their final releases.

But thanks Kanluwen for telling me I have no idea what I'm talking about...

You understand that the kit also has to build an Infantry Squad as well, correct?

They have not yet done an actual, dedicated "Death Korps of Krieg" squad release intended for 40k proper. All the instructions are just copy/pastes of the Octarius ones, and I can flat out tell you right now that there are significant alterations you can make to the squad simply by playing around with the arms.

 Kanluwen wrote:
They have not yet done an actual, dedicated "Death Korps of Krieg" squad release intended for 40k proper. All the instructions are just copy/pastes of the Octarius ones, and I can flat out tell you right now that there are significant alterations you can make to the squad simply by playing around with the arms.

So, you're saying there is an actual, dedicated Death Korp of Krieg release for 40k proper.

Because it's rules are right there in the PDF alongside all of the other actual, dedicated releases for 40k proper, and it can only take 1 plasma gun OR vox per 10 models.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Which doesn't matter, as the options for the unit in-game are 1 vox or plasma gun per 10 models. So if you decided to take the plasma gun arms, and put them on a different body to have a plasma gun and a vox in your ten man krieg squad? Congratulations, that unit is not legal to play. You need to have a 20 model unit of kriegers to get both a plasma gun and a vox.

The Infantry Squad is still a thing...at least for now?

 Kanluwen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Which doesn't matter, as the options for the unit in-game are 1 vox or plasma gun per 10 models. So if you decided to take the plasma gun arms, and put them on a different body to have a plasma gun and a vox in your ten man krieg squad? Congratulations, that unit is not legal to play. You need to have a 20 model unit of kriegers to get both a plasma gun and a vox.

The Infantry Squad is still a thing...at least for now?

Ah yes, the infantry squad which does not get any of the rules specific to the Death Korp of Krieg squad such as the medpack, or the DKoK unit ability.

So, why is it that Kriegers cannot take a plasma gun and a vox in a 10 man squad when every other battleline infantry squad can (except for the ancient catachans, but they can only take 1 flamer per 5 and 1 vox per 10)? And does it correlate to the printed instruction limitations of the set, regardless of whether the arms can actually be used on other bodies in practice?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They have not yet done an actual, dedicated "Death Korps of Krieg" squad release intended for 40k proper. All the instructions are just copy/pastes of the Octarius ones, and I can flat out tell you right now that there are significant alterations you can make to the squad simply by playing around with the arms.

So, you're saying there is an actual, dedicated Death Korp of Krieg release for 40k proper.

Because it's rules are right there in the PDF alongside all of the other actual, dedicated releases for 40k proper, and it can only take 1 plasma gun OR vox per 10 models.

So, you're saying that those rules were available from the outset?

January 2022 is when the DKoK individual box was released.
November 2022 is when the Cadia Stands army box released, marking the first instance of the "plasma OR vox" coming into effect.

We had KT downloads for quite a few teams over the past few years. DKoK wasn't one of them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
They have not yet done an actual, dedicated "Death Korps of Krieg" squad release intended for 40k proper. All the instructions are just copy/pastes of the Octarius ones, and I can flat out tell you right now that there are significant alterations you can make to the squad simply by playing around with the arms.

So, you're saying there is an actual, dedicated Death Korp of Krieg release for 40k proper.

Because it's rules are right there in the PDF alongside all of the other actual, dedicated releases for 40k proper, and it can only take 1 plasma gun OR vox per 10 models.

So, you're saying that those rules were available from the outset?.

I mean, yes. The rules for the Death Korp of Krieg squad has been available in the Imperial Guard 10th edition rules from the outset of the rules for Imperial Guard in 10th edition being available. Have you actually read them?

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Which doesn't matter, as the options for the unit in-game are 1 vox or plasma gun per 10 models. So if you decided to take the plasma gun arms, and put them on a different body to have a plasma gun and a vox in your ten man krieg squad? Congratulations, that unit is not legal to play. You need to have a 20 model unit of kriegers to get both a plasma gun and a vox.

The Infantry Squad is still a thing...at least for now?

Ah yes, the infantry squad which does not get any of the rules specific to the Death Korp of Krieg squad such as the medpack, or the DKoK unit ability.

Yes. Same as how anyone who had Cadian Snipers has to use the Infantry Squads.

So, why is it that Kriegers cannot take a plasma gun and a vox in a 10 man squad when every other battleline infantry squad can (except for the ancient catachans, but they can only take 1 flamer per 5 and 1 vox per 10)?

Counterpoint:
Why is it that Krieg can take a Plasma Gun and 2 specials in a 10 man squad when every other battleline infantry squad can not?

And does it correlate to the printed instruction limitations of the set, regardless of whether the arms can actually be used on other bodies in practice?

Why is it that Kasrkin Sergeants cannot take a Hotshot Lasgun, despite the printed instructions and the Kill Team roster actually allowing for it?

The answer is how the hell should I know, the designers constantly screw up when it comes to Guard. I said this last week when the index drop in that it feels like the writers don't actually know what the kits can do.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

I mean, yes. The rules for the Death Korp of Krieg squad has been available in the Imperial Guard 10th edition rules from the outset of the rules for Imperial Guard in 10th edition being available. Have you actually read them?

So the 10th edition rules have been available since January of 2022?

This is going to be a circular argument it seems. You're hyperfocused on the 10th edition rules, while ignoring that DKoK have been available for over a year now and for almost half a year before the 9th edition codex dropped.

I'm not focused on that. I built three DKoK squads, a pair of Special Weapon Squads, and a Command Squad before the 9E book even dropped. I don't know why precisely they did any of what they did. Nobody but the design team knows why they did it that way.

Actually, you can’t attach any Krieg arms to any body - at least not without some degree of modification. They’re quite restrictive. It’s not just the instructions that limit the options.

Then why did you claim that Dawnbringer was wrong when he said that the rules for kriegers prevented them from taking both a plasma gun and a vox in a 10 man squad and the reason that GW imposed such a restriction?

"the only balance there is when its taking the Vox or taking something else, and even then it needs to make some sort of logical sense why you wouldn't have both"

"Because the plasma gun arms only go with the vox caster body..."

According to the official instructions for assembling the models, which is what GW often uses for its idiotic and arbitrary restrictions, that is exactly the reason that kriegers cannot take both a plasma gun and a vox.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

So the 10th edition rules have been available since January of 2022?

This is going to be a circular argument it seems. You're hyperfocused on the 10th edition rules, while ignoring that DKoK have been available for over a year now and for almost half a year before the 9th edition codex dropped.

I'm not focused on that. I built three DKoK squads, a pair of Special Weapon Squads, and a Command Squad before the 9E book even dropped. I don't know why precisely they did any of what they did. Nobody but the design team knows why they did it that way.

Might want to check the topic of the thread then, Kan, I wonder if there might be a reason that people here are focused on what the rules for 10th edition are rather than the rules from a year ago that you want to talk about. From the onset of 10th, what this entire thread is about, Krieg have had rules in the main rules document for the IG, and those rules say 1 vox or plasma gun per ten models, because 1 model in the kit is designed to either use a plasma gun or a vox, just as Dawn said.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Ah yes, the infantry squad which does not get any of the rules specific to the Death Korp of Krieg squad such as the medpack, or the DKoK unit ability.

In fairness - and in a vague attempt to inject a dash of levity into proceedings here - the DKoK squad can't benefit from the medpack yet either, as they have no way to take it in the squad

 Dysartes wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Ah yes, the infantry squad which does not get any of the rules specific to the Death Korp of Krieg squad such as the medpack, or the DKoK unit ability.

In fairness - and in a vague attempt to inject a dash of levity into proceedings here - the DKoK squad can't benefit from the medpack yet either, as they have no way to take it in the squad

Yeah, I also noticed that. Nice to see that my Stealth Suits aren't alone in looking at wargear locked behind a glass case with rules for using them on the table but no rules for acquiring them. Maybe they should set up a support group, Wargear Anonymous.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Then why did you claim that Dawnbringer was wrong when he said that the rules for kriegers prevented them from taking both a plasma gun and a vox in a 10 man squad and the reason that GW imposed such a restriction?

"the only balance there is when its taking the Vox or taking something else, and even then it needs to make some sort of logical sense why you wouldn't have both"
"Because the plasma gun arms only go with the vox caster body..."

Cool, so where's the article discussing that? I'd assume there is one, since we're taking Dawnbringer's statement as fact to be defended.

I get that people assume it's why, but I can point to several kits with instructions that clearly aren't complete nor reflected in the rules.

According to the official instructions for assembling the models, which is what GW often uses for its idiotic and arbitrary restrictions, that is exactly the reason that kriegers cannot take both a plasma gun and a vox.

And yet, you can build a squad with both a plasma gun and a vox.

Might want to check the topic of the thread then, Kan, I wonder if there might be a reason that people here are focused on what the rules for 10th edition are rather than the rules from a year ago that you want to talk about. From the onset of 10th, what this entire thread is about, Krieg have had rules in the main rules document for the IG, and those rules say 1 vox or plasma gun per ten models, because 1 model in the kit is designed to either use a plasma gun or a vox, just as Dawn said.

That's why I mentioned the whole Infantry Squad thing, that you immediately leaped in to try to discredit or something, while ignoring that we do not have a dedicated Infantry Squad kit. The Cadians, Catachans, and DKoK all have to also be able to build that unit.

Also, repeating it since you chose to ignore it:
The instructions aren't the end all, be all. If they truly were? I'd have Kasrkin Sergeants with Hotshot Lasguns right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Dysartes wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Ah yes, the infantry squad which does not get any of the rules specific to the Death Korp of Krieg squad such as the medpack, or the DKoK unit ability.

In fairness - and in a vague attempt to inject a dash of levity into proceedings here - the DKoK squad can't benefit from the medpack yet either, as they have no way to take it in the squad

Dollars to donuts, the medpack wasn't meant to be an upgrade but rather a keyword.

edit : not going to be able to discuss without adding a billion pounds of nuance