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 Overread wrote:
I think that's one thing I love about Tyranids - because their lore isn't written by themselves about themselves; they have the most alien of lores and presentations. What we know is almost guesswork and deductions from other races. It gives them a huge amount of scope to do something really alien and odd that we don't see the logic in because we can only see a corner of the picture through a dirty lens.

Exactly and that is why theres unlimited fun speculating about it. Almost like a sandbox and you build upon it.
That can be carried out to modelling where you expand and convert "evolved" variants.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
But when we talk about unique evolution strains; specific powerful/notable/hard to replicate creatures then we see a difference.

Why would they be hard to replicate? The Tyranids absorb everything and take everything that works and discard the rest. Unique evolution strains would either be purposeful adaptations to overcome an unforeseen or new obstacle, or mutations that the Hive Mind might attempt to quarantine (wasn't there a Hive Fleet that got disconnected from the Hive Mind... it's been a while)

We have to assume that there are elements hive fleets find hard to replicate and that there are limits on their genetic capacity otherwise they'd just make singular super-weapon style tyranids. Why waste biomatter on legions of gaunts when you can save all that and make just a handful of super titanic tyranids to wipe out a world's defences. I like to think that for all their clear higher intelligence and capacity to evolve and modify and such; the Tyranids still have to operate closer to a living creature than a scientist. Again we see that they can't just spin up specific DNA and keep true to that DNA; they have genetic drift with their breeding, they rely on situations arising and providing pressure on their produced offspring to give rise to a vastly sped up survival of the fittest type of evolution.

Within that there's scope that there are bits we don't understand about what limits there are for their recreation. There clearly are limits and there clearly are elements that restrict what they can and cannot do whilst at the same time they almost appear to have infinite variety and potential.



And yes I recall that there have been swarms isolated from the Hive Mind. I don't think we even really know what the Hive Mind is. I think more recent lore has pushed the idea that the Hive Mind is a fusion of both real world and Warp energies. Which would explain how, in universe, they can remain in communication over vast physical distances; if they are communicating through the Warp in the background. It also helps drive home the idea about how the Tyranids clearly user warp energies for psy powers and also have a presence in the Warp that drives other warp entities away. The befuddling nature of the Warp would also help explain how Tyranids can maintain communications over vast distances and yet still end up with fleets isolated or how fleets might not exchange perfect DNA information with each other (hence why fleets specialise and why some might have some mutations others do not).

I think that there've been a few cases of isolation and even Genestealer Cults can end up isolated from the Hive Mind; which if the cult is successful, just leads to them leaving the world they've taken and spreading to other worlds and expanding their influence (which of course creates a bigger amount of Psy for them to potentially lure fleets in with

To add a bit to the "hero" "individuality" debate and sorry to still mention Genestealers but a Patriarch is, in my view, that particular genestealer Individual that grows old and fat and everyone follows etc. It's a good example that shows, that maybe, individuality is a possibility within Tyranids.

The Hive Mind is pretty efficient.

If ships may be unfathomably old, that’s because the Hive Fleets, thanks to the Shadow In The Warp, see relatively little battle. Some will be actively defended due to their value (holding Norn Queens), but others are replaceable, and not individually essential.

Ground side? Special character bugs could simply be the result of chance mutation. The Red Terror could well be a Ripper Genus with a serious case of Gigantism. Or they could be incredibly specialist bugs only spawned/deployed when their unique talents are truly required.

This is also why Swarms are reabsorbed during the final stages of a successful invasion. To shuttle them back up to the Hive Fleets would require specialist creatures for just that purpose. Or, you can have them all jump in the digestion pools, rendering them down to primordial goo, then sook them up with everything else.

Their individual minds are all that individual. Instead the Hive Mind sees all through its gribblies, which are closer to individual cells in a colossal life form. Any particularly successful bioform or attack is noticed, noted, and remembered by The Whole Of The Thing. So again, there’s little point in preserving the bioform itself. All you need to know is already known just by it’s existence.

Patriarchs are individuals, "recent" GSC lore has been clear about that, and arguably Purestrain Genestealer are also individuals.

But it is also clear that is just a very specific exception to facilitate their role as long term infiltration organisms. That individuality is lost when the Hive Fleet appears and the broodmind is assimilated by the Hive Mind.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT: regarding the recent weapons article and the shown Termagant datasheet, the guns seem to be very balanced against each other.

Spinefists are actually our strongest option for termagants because 2 shots with twin-linked should put some decent anti-infantry attacks with the downside being 12" range.

Fleshborers are actually the weakest, but Assault + 18" range mean it has the highest reach.

Devourers are in the middle of the pack with greater output than fleshborers and greater range that spinefists, but the lack of Assault means they are slower.

...
I think I will need some spinefist termagants.

 Overread wrote:

 H.B.M.C. wrote:

 Overread wrote:
But when we talk about unique evolution strains; specific powerful/notable/hard to replicate creatures then we see a difference.

Why would they be hard to replicate? The Tyranids absorb everything and take everything that works and discard the rest. Unique evolution strains would either be purposeful adaptations to overcome an unforeseen or new obstacle, or mutations that the Hive Mind might attempt to quarantine (wasn't there a Hive Fleet that got disconnected from the Hive Mind... it's been a while)

We have to assume that there are elements hive fleets find hard to replicate and that there are limits on their genetic capacity otherwise they'd just make singular super-weapon style tyranids. Why waste biomatter on legions of gaunts when you can save all that and make just a handful of super titanic tyranids to wipe out a world's defences. I like to think that for all their clear higher intelligence and capacity to evolve and modify and such; the Tyranids still have to operate closer to a living creature than a scientist. Again we see that they can't just spin up specific DNA and keep true to that DNA; they have genetic drift with their breeding, they rely on situations arising and providing pressure on their produced offspring to give rise to a vastly sped up survival of the fittest type of evolution.

Within that there's scope that there are bits we don't understand about what limits there are for their recreation. There clearly are limits and there clearly are elements that restrict what they can and cannot do whilst at the same time they almost appear to have infinite variety and potential.



And yes I recall that there have been swarms isolated from the Hive Mind. I don't think we even really know what the Hive Mind is. I think more recent lore has pushed the idea that the Hive Mind is a fusion of both real world and Warp energies. Which would explain how, in universe, they can remain in communication over vast physical distances; if they are communicating through the Warp in the background. It also helps drive home the idea about how the Tyranids clearly user warp energies for psy powers and also have a presence in the Warp that drives other warp entities away. The befuddling nature of the Warp would also help explain how Tyranids can maintain communications over vast distances and yet still end up with fleets isolated or how fleets might not exchange perfect DNA information with each other (hence why fleets specialise and why some might have some mutations others do not).

I think that there've been a few cases of isolation and even Genestealer Cults can end up isolated from the Hive Mind; which if the cult is successful, just leads to them leaving the world they've taken and spreading to other worlds and expanding their influence (which of course creates a bigger amount of Psy for them to potentially lure fleets in with

the most plausible, "realistic" tyranid invasion would consist of dumping biotoxins and micro/nano scale weapons that dissolve the entire biosphere into digestible sludge, and then slurping it all up. why drop a few big, impractical titan bugs what will just get ventilated by the enemies warheads and lasers when you can wage war with viruses and poisons?

Oh that’s easy.

Prey That Fights doesn’t just fight on land. You can’t get close enough to dump said nasties without running the gauntlet of planetary defences.

There’s also the ongoing opportunity to learn.

Viruses and poisons have clear limitations as weapons as they cannot get through fully sealed defenses.

I mean, Titan Legions are noted to be immune to virus bombing for that reason.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
I look at it as a form of "rapid prototyping".

The Red Terror was created for a specific purpose, when the Hive Mind came up against an enemy in an environment it hadn't yet considered or found a counter. The Red Terror proved useful, and thus "production model" burrowing creatures were created - Raveners and Trygons and the like.

But The Red Terror isn't a personality. It doesn't sit back going "Yes! My progeny! Now they burrow to my enemy's ultimate doooooom!". It's just a tool, and, by this stage, an obsolete one superseded by the aforementioned "production model" burrowers. The Red Terror, by rights, should never appear again. It served its purpose, and the Hive Mind used it to find a solution to a specific problem and now has the more advanced creatures to use should that situation ever reemerge or to adapt to new strategies.

The Swarmlord, which is too personal a name for my liking, shouldn't be a personality, reborn across battlefields like some Tyranid version of Skeletor screaming "I'll get you next time Calgar! Next time!" every time he gets defeated and reabsorbed. It should be a niche tool that's used for particularly large or complex conflicts, where a level of in-the-field synaptic control beyond the capabilities of regular Hive Tyrants is required.

But it's not a "hero" in the sense that other armies have their leaders. The Tyranids need to be as faceless as possible. That's the horror of the Hive Mind. It has no compassion or empathy. It doesn't care who or what you are. It just wants to consume, and all its various creations are but tools to be used for either specific or general tasks, with new ones created when new situations arise and just as easily discarded when the problem is resolved or the tool fails to meet the requirements of its task.

Honestly, the Swarmlord is the one Tyranid Special Character I really can't stand. The other 'characters' seem appropriate as either specialised versions of existing entities or unexpected mutations of such (and being extremely rare or even one-of-a-kind as a result). Though playable, the fluff often implies that they've only been seen on a single world.

However, the Swarmlord breaks the trend by being a distinct entity that is repeatedly being respawned exactly as-is.

As such, it seems far too much like a regular character. I also think it gives far too much of a recognisable face to the Hive Mind.

Also, the fact that he was retroactively shoehorned (with all the subtlety of 3rd rate fanfiction) into prior stories does nothing to endear him to me.

 NAVARRO wrote:
To add a bit to the "hero" "individuality" debate and sorry to still mention Genestealers but a Patriarch is, in my view, that particular genestealer Individual that grows old and fat and everyone follows etc. It's a good example that shows, that maybe, individuality is a possibility within Tyranids.

Out of curiosity, do Patriarchs ever resist being dissolved/absorbed?

 Overread wrote:

I might well be remembering a few scant bits of earlier lore. It's a downside to an evolving lore that sometimes bits of the old stuff get stuck in the mind even if they aren't repeated as much in latter publications. It can also be that sometimes the latter parts aren't repeated or are repeated in side content (video games or such) not the core narrative.

You're not remembering old lore, you're making stuff up.

 vipoid wrote:

 NAVARRO wrote:
To add a bit to the "hero" "individuality" debate and sorry to still mention Genestealers but a Patriarch is, in my view, that particular genestealer Individual that grows old and fat and everyone follows etc. It's a good example that shows, that maybe, individuality is a possibility within Tyranids.

Out of curiosity, do Patriarchs ever resist being dissolved/absorbed?

I think that depends if they, in the end, managed to actually lure a fleet in to do so. The ultimate goal is to infiltrate and infect and multiply by reproduction... It's one of those instances where halfbreeds actually can communicate and understand the infected race to a deeper level ( than just run and eat them like a wild animal).
If a cult knows theres more worlds in that sector they may well expand if no fleet has come to assimilate all biomatter.
An old Patriarch that lived countless years hibernating as a genestealer and then manages to get to a juicy world and then spends more decades making babies, I think he would not resist the pool at all (parenting is not easy you know XD)... Because his pure genestealers generations, that also born from his deeds, are probably already drifting away hidden in the ships that managed to escape the cult rise. His young seeds carry on but he reached his limits.

Speaking about lictors, another vanguard organism specialised in camouflage, mimetism etc my thoughts dwell on how did they managed to get ahead before the fleet arrives, totally undetected... Maybe a special drop pod or a spore that grows... no idea but an octopus crossed with praying mantis does need a better mini than those showed so far.

The Swarmlord is just a Hive Tyrant+. Nothing special about it, apart from being the most highly evolved battlefield command bioform Nids use.

It's not a one-off like Red Terror or the original Old One Eye.

Warzone Octarius even states that multiple Swarmlords can exist simultaneously.

The original Swarmlord fluff practically had sunlight glinting off his teeth. They leaned very close to him being a constantly reborn individual that had distinct memories downloaded into each new shell. Obviously, I hated this idea.

Regarding GSC generally they happily trot into the hive ships or a nice relaxing digestive pool.

However, there has been fluff that says some stealers flee ahead of the HF or that the HM deems dodgy for some reason and refuses to accept. In either case, the effect is to propagate another wave of infiltration.

 Souleater wrote:
The original Swarmlord fluff practically had sunlight glinting off his teeth. They leaned very close to him being a constantly reborn individual that had distinct memories downloaded into each new shell. Obviously, I hated this idea.

Regarding GSC generally they happily trot into the hive ships or a nice relaxing digestive pool.

However, there has been fluff that says some stealers flee ahead of the HF or that the HM deems dodgy for some reason and refuses to accept. In either case, the effect is to propagate another wave of infiltration.

I know I've seen lore implying that the GSC are generally not down with being eaten by the tyranids; they just don't realize they will be until it's too late. But when it does become too late it's terrible, because even the Genestealers that were "in" the cult turn against them.

In some cases, yes. But I strongly encourage you to read Day of Ascension which is a fantastic BL all about GSC.

There's also a really, really good Hammer & Bolter episode called "A New Life".

 NAVARRO wrote:

If a cult knows theres more worlds in that sector they may well expand

The Infinite and the Divine has a Genestealer Cult that plans to steal an Imperial Navy Strike Force to do exactly that.

Other than opportunity. There’s really nothing stopping a Genestealer Cult spreading.

Even a “passing for human” 4th Gen can start the process anew - they just won’t necessarily have a Patriarch at first. All they have to do is hypnotise a victim of the opposite sex, and have a baby. Baby will be a Purestrain, and presumably a Patriarch waiting to happen.

3rd Ed Hive Tyrant was best hive Tyrant. Fight me and Ripley too!

I should repaint mine someday.

You spelled 2nd wrong.

The d was right (fnarr!) but the rest could charitably be called close

Hm, I recall pretty clearly that it wasn't just the Swarmlord--all Tyrants have their intelligence reabsorbed into the Hive Mind then respawned in new bodies.

In fact all Tyranid synaptic creatures do it, that's why in crusade we can respawn a synapse creature as a different synapse creature with the same amount of experience.

 NinthMusketeer wrote:
Hm, I recall pretty clearly that it wasn't just the Swarmlord--all Tyrants have their intelligence reabsorbed into the Hive Mind then respawned in new bodies.

Technically, it’s the experiences of all Tyranid Organisms, and it’s live-streamed/recorded to the Hive Mind, as they’re all part of the Hive Mind, not mere extension of it.

I’d need to check my books, but if memory serves Hive Tyrants simply have a greater autonomy, and capacity to rationalise, marking them above other lesser bugs which are more instinctual than intelligent outside of the synaptic web.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To use a crap analogy, consider how our bodies sense something.

Our entire body feels. Temperature, humidity, other sensations such as texture, pressure and what have you.

That is the majority of the swarm. Passive input devices. The Hive Tyrants are closer to the eyes, something the Hive Mind, being the brain, can focus on once source of stimulation for greater scrutiny.

So a Gaunt Brood might be encountering stiff resistance. The Hive Mind knows this, and to some degree can channel extra into the Gaines to find out more. But a Hive Tyrant, or I suppose a Warrior Brood can provide a wider range of stimuli for analysis, and from that suggestions of how to overcome said resistance.

Hence as well as denting the local synaptic web, slaying Tyrants and other Leader Bugs hampers the Hive Mind, as it loses that source of focus and increased stimuli.

Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?

I don't know about the newsletter, but at time of posting there isn't anything new on WHC.

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?

Just these from 4/7 & last Friday

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?

Just these from 4/7 & last Friday

Thanks! It looks like I need to subscribe for the Nids newsletter for a third time. Maybe this time it will work? Never had any problems before with their emails not getting to me. Weird.

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?

Just these from 4/7 & last Friday

Thanks! It looks like I need to subscribe for the Nids newsletter for a third time. Maybe this time it will work? Never had any problems before with their emails not getting to me. Weird.

The Hive Mind has seen you as unworthy and will just digest you, no need for you to understand the future.

 Theophony wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:

Grzzldgamerps5 wrote:

 Shadow Walker wrote:
Has anyone of you got any Tyranids related info from the newsletter? I have nothing in my box so far, and I am wondering if it is my thing or GW simply did not send anything yet?

Just these from 4/7 & last Friday

Thanks! It looks like I need to subscribe for the Nids newsletter for a third time. Maybe this time it will work? Never had any problems before with their emails not getting to me. Weird.

The Hive Mind has seen you as unworthy and will just digest you, no need for you to understand the future.

Seems so. Just got a message from the Norn Queen about being demoted to the Rippers in the next respawning.