10th Edition Gameplay and Rules news and discussion - Terrain pg 46

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**ERJAK**

Daedalus81 wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Well, they are introducing reactions as a major mechanic of the edition. Could be plenty of "Fire and Fade" type stuff for speedy fragile factions like Eldar.

Oooh, that makes sense. Eldar might be really slippery until you get close enough. Should be interesting to see how it all comes out.

Doesn't help Sisters much, we're more known for the 'fire' part than the 'fade' part.

Not that I don't think they'll have some sort of compensation for our low toughness, just that it won't be speed.

**Daedalus81**

ERJAK wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Well, they are introducing reactions as a major mechanic of the edition. Could be plenty of "Fire and Fade" type stuff for speedy fragile factions like Eldar.

Oooh, that makes sense. Eldar might be really slippery until you get close enough. Should be interesting to see how it all comes out.

Doesn't help Sisters much, we're more known for the 'fire' part than the 'fade' part.

Not that I don't think they'll have some sort of compensation for our low toughness, just that it won't be speed.

Given that miracle dice are probably not a thing I imagine Sisters will have some sort of 'miracle' reaction.

At the same time regular marines are the same durability so as long as the points parity is good it should be ok. Termies might need a slight bump.

The big puzzle piece might be terrain, because that notoriously skews unit profiles in different directions depending on the edition. Will they implement a system that is armor and weapon agnostic?

**Spoletta**

I will throw a random guess that sisters will be very fine.

3+ armor is going to matter a lot, especially on 1w profiles.

**PenitentJake**

Daedalus81 wrote:

Given that miracle dice are probably not a thing I imagine Sisters will have some sort of 'miracle' reaction.

My absolute least favourite version of AoF, was when each unit had one and only one specific miracle that it could perform. I think it was 6th? Maybe 5th? It was the dex that made me quit 40k until 8th.

And the gakky thing is, not only is that what they're doing with psychic powers (though a powerful psychic might have up to three individual psychic abilities on the datacard), it's almost guaranteed to be what they do with AoF.

I hadn't even thought about that until now, and it's actually the biggest potential blight on the edition. feth up my AoF badly enough and literally nothing else matters- I'm out. But again, the good news is I'll be able to see how bad it is for free on day one and make an informed decision.

**Blndmage**

Tsagualsa wrote:
The term 'critical' in itself is a staple of the genre that exists in practically all RPGs

Very much not true.
Doesn't exist in practically all RPGs.

**alextroy**

PenitentJake wrote:
Daedalus81 wrote:

Given that miracle dice are probably not a thing I imagine Sisters will have some sort of 'miracle' reaction.

My absolute least favourite version of AoF, was when each unit had one and only one specific miracle that it could perform. I think it was 6th? Maybe 5th? It was the dex that made me quit 40k until 8th.

And the gakky thing is, not only is that what they're doing with psychic powers (though a powerful psychic might have up to three individual psychic abilities on the datacard), it's almost guaranteed to be what they do with AoF.

I hadn't even thought about that until now, and it's actually the biggest potential blight on the edition. feth up my AoF badly enough and literally nothing else matters- I'm out. But again, the good news is I'll be able to see how bad it is for free on day one and make an informed decision.

I will join you in praying to the Emperor that Acts of Faith are the Faction Ability of Adepta Sororitas. It can't be too hard to trim that rule down to fit on the two page spread with the rest of the detachment rules.

**Platuan4th**

PenitentJake wrote:

My absolute least favourite version of AoF, was when each unit had one and only one specific miracle that it could perform. I think it was 6th? Maybe 5th? It was the dex that made me quit 40k until 8th.

It was 6th and it wasn't even a Codex, it was an army list spread across 3 White Dwarfs. Woe betide anyone who couldn't get one of the issues.

**alextroy**

Platuan4th wrote:
PenitentJake wrote:

My absolute least favourite version of AoF, was when each unit had one and only one specific miracle that it could perform. I think it was 6th? Maybe 5th? It was the dex that made me quit 40k until 8th.

It was 6th and it wasn't even a Codex, it was an army list spread across 3 White Dwarfs. Woe betide anyone who couldn't get one of the issues.

Technically, it was 2 issues. The First Issue didn't have any real rules in it

That being said Miracle Dice are the best AOF rules since the Witch Hunter codex.

**Totalwar1402**

I think it’s going to be a bad edition for Sisters of Battle.

They haven’t got rid of AP. So that armour save is still not worth it. Damage output still seems crazy so you’re Guard with bolters. It’s a problem with a game built around killing 2 wound T4 space marines and where the armour save can easily be modified down. You can’t often reduce wounds and toughness but you can reduce armour. What kills two tactical marines should kill half a squad of Sisters. This is a problem because they aren’t priced like a horde army.

So they’re staying a glass hammer. But, they’re removing the faction and special rules. Sisters really rely on this to work. This would mean they wouldn’t be able to punch hard enough to deliver the kind of knock out punches they need.

Also I could see them screwing around with acts of faith and trying to make them strategems. Which is bad because there was something very thematic about intervening and altering fate to represent a miracle on the Battlefield.

As a side note. I didn’t see anything simpler about that profile. Iam still rolling as many dice. Still got strats complicating damage output, still got damage profiles for models, so modifiers on armour; all really needless bloat that actually complicates everything. Remembering Bloody Rose get an extra attack on the charge. Like you couod quite easily take that data-sheet and use it in ninth.

**H.B.M.C.**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
They haven’t got rid of AP.
Damage output still seems crazy...

Of what we've seen, what gives you these two impressions?

They were never going to get rid of AP, but they did say they were going to reduce it. And, from what we've seen, they have. Far more AP0 things, and things that were very high AP are now around half of what they were. As for damage output, again, the listed amounts on the sheets we've seen so far don't strike me as being particularly damaging.

**Afrodactyl**

Totalwar1402 wrote:

They haven’t got rid of AP.

I mean, they were never going to make everything AP0. But what we have seen so far is an overall reduction in AP.

Just on the terminator datasheet we've seen chainfists go from 4 to 2, and power fists/swords go from 3 to 2.

They said they would reduce AP and they have so far.

**Spoletta**

I think that the most telling change for the future of the game are the stalker bolters.

From 5 -2 2 (practically 5 -3 2)

To 5 -1 1

If this doesn't tell you of a reduction in lethality, I don't know what will.

Edit:

... did they remove the bolter profiles from the article? I can no longer find them...

**Brickfix**

They never showed the different bolt rifles, the only image that circulated was very likely fake.

**tneva82**

Totalwar1402 wrote:
I think it’s going to be a bad edition for Sisters of Battle.

They haven’t got rid of AP. So that armour save is still not worth it. Damage output still seems crazy so you’re Guard with bolters. It’s a problem with a game built around killing 2 wound T4 space marines and where the armour save can easily be modified down. You can’t often reduce wounds and toughness but you can reduce armour. What kills two tactical marines should kill half a squad of Sisters. This is a problem because they aren’t priced like a horde army.

So they’re staying a glass hammer. But, they’re removing the faction and special rules. Sisters really rely on this to work. This would mean they wouldn’t be able to punch hard enough to deliver the kind of knock out punches they need.

Also I could see them screwing around with acts of faith and trying to make them strategems. Which is bad because there was something very thematic about intervening and altering fate to represent a miracle on the Battlefield.

As a side note. I didn’t see anything simpler about that profile. Iam still rolling as many dice. Still got strats complicating damage output, still got damage profiles for models, so modifiers on armour; all really needless bloat that actually complicates everything. Remembering Bloody Rose get an extra attack on the charge. Like you couod quite easily take that data-sheet and use it in ninth.

Lol. We already know AP is being reduced across the board and AP1(the most valuable one) is already getting lot more rare.

We also have zero idea of sister rules and points. Put in space marine at 30 pts and sister at 8 pts. You think sister is going to be in so much trouble? Really?

But hey when it's you no surprise you are already panicking over

Nothing less to be expected.

**The Red Hobbit**

Afrodactyl wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:

They haven’t got rid of AP.

I mean, they were never going to make everything AP0. But what we have seen so far is an overall reduction in AP.

Just on the terminator datasheet we've seen chainfists go from 4 to 2, and power fists/swords go from 3 to 2.

They said they would reduce AP and they have so far.

Which is great, people have been hoping for less AP for a while to curb lethality instead of Invul proliferation (and later Armor of Contempt)

**Breton**

Gadzilla666 wrote:
Breton wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.

Eyuup. Loyalist. Traitor. It doesn't matter. A marine should need help from other Marines in dealing with something like a Greater Daemon. Marines should work as squads. Not as Armies of One.

Greater Daemon, Lesser Daemon, it doesn't matter. A Daemon should need help from other Daemons in dealing with something like a Gretchin. Only my army should have a centerpiece beatstick model.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

JNAProductions wrote:
Breton wrote:
Gadzilla666 wrote:

No, it's because a marine is still just a marine, despite rank. And a Greater Daemon is something significantly beyond that. Please, let your bolter porn narrative be. If the antagonist isn't sufficiently frightening, then the protagonist is just a Mary Sue.

So you're saying because in the fluff the big hulking scary powerful Greater Daemon is something significant in combat, but the marine is just a marine regardless of the fluffed rank, age, and experience that doesn't matter. Glad you cleared that up.
A Marine is, at most, maybe 9’ tall.
A Marine is, at most, S5 base-on par with a Bloodletter, the lesser daemon of Khorne.
A Marine is physical-with physical limits.

A Bloodthirster is about the size of a Questoris Knight.
A Bloodthirster is ordinarily base S8.
A Bloodthirster is not bound by material rules, being a Daemon.

I won’t say “A captain can NEVER beat a Bloodthirster,” because sometimes you get really lucky, and the other side gets the opposite.
But are you honestly saying that a Captain should be able to expect to go toe-to-toe with a Bloodthirster and come out on top?

I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Siegfriedfr wrote:
03/04/2023

https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/04/03/warhammer-40000-the-anatomy-of-a-new-datasheet/

What is OC?

Objective Control – or OC – is a measure of how well a unit can secure critical locations. each model has an OC characteristic, and to determine who controls an objective, you simply count up the total OC of all models within range. This small but impactful change breathes new life into basic troops – taking and holding ground is a newfound specialty and a clear key to victory.

Warriors that were previously categorised as Troops will generally have a higher OC than elite units – whose job is not to hold ground, but to strike and move on. Vehicles and Monsters also earn a more substantial OC, so Knights and the like can muscle smaller units off objectives.

How does Leadership work?

Leadership is much more impactful in the new edition. Your units’ morale is now gauged with a Battle-shock test. Many factors can force a unit to test for Battle-shock, including being below Half-strength during the Command Phase. Fail and they struggle to capture objectives, use Stratagems, or Fall Back from combat.

You’ll also notice that Leadership now counts upwards. Our Intercessor has LD 6+ – which is equivalent to his old value of 8.

What’s happened to WS, BS, S, and A?

Offensive characteristics are still very much in the game – but they now live on weapon profiles, to help keep datasheets clear and easy to read.

Weapon profiles explained

Everything you need to take a shot or a swing at your enemies is now contained in an individual weapon profile – everything from Attacks to Weapon Skill to Damage is all in one place. This means that weapons like power fists, which used to need text to explain that they made things harder to hit, now have their own hit roll statistic.

Moreover, weapon profiles are tied to individual units – so a chainsword in the hands of a Space Marine is deadlier and easier to hit with than one held by a snivelling cultist.

The fundamental interactions haven’t changed – equal Strength and Toughness still means you wound on a roll of 4+, and so forth. It’s just that all of a weapon’s quirks are contained in its Core Abilities.

Many different effects are covered by Core Abilities, from classic weapon types like Assault and Rapid Fire to auto-hits from flame weapons.

Oh my lord is this going to suck.

**Insectum7**

Breton wrote:

I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.

So like, my IG or Tau commander should be able to go toe to toe with a Custodes Captain?

Yeah, no. F that.

A Daemon Prince should best a Marine Captain, a Greater Daemon should best a Daemon Prince, an Avatar should be roughly on par with a Greater Daemon. The Nightbringer should be up there too, and that tier should be chopping Chapter Masters in half.

Factions should be different. Part of that means not being equal in the "beatstick" category.

**Afrodactyl**

Breton wrote:

Oh my lord is this going to suck.

What makes you say that?

**tneva82**

Afrodactyl wrote:
Breton wrote:

Oh my lord is this going to suck.

What makes you say that?

Everything sucks for him

can't have preview without him saying it sucks.

Unless he likes to spam troops. Who of course should be able to go toe to toe with best elites 1=1. 1 grot should be able to fight terminator of course.

As oc helps elite troops over troops compared to now no wonder he complains. Can't just spam cheap troops to win(cheap yet be just as good in fight as elite)

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breton wrote:

I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.
[/quote

Okay. Have you noticed captains are way cheaper(like half) of stuff like gd's?

You just admitted being so hilariously bad player you admit needing ridictulously op units to have a stand

Good job!

**Totalwar1402**

H.B.M.C. wrote:
Totalwar1402 wrote:
They haven’t got rid of AP.
Damage output still seems crazy...
Of what we've seen, what gives you these two impressions?

They were never going to get rid of AP, but they did say they were going to reduce it. And, from what we've seen, they have. Far more AP0 things, and things that were very high AP are now around half of what they were. As for damage output, again, the listed amounts on the sheets we've seen so far don't strike me as being particularly damaging.

The damage profiles seem fairly similar. This means they haven’t really changed the way damage works. That they still want to make the game exciting and your decisions impactful. Which means one action means shovelling enemy units off the table to speed up the game.

Sisters are disproportionally impacted because the armour save is a degrading profile whilst toughness and wounds aren’t. Plus the game is scaled to kill marines. If somebody thinks it’s reasonable for an assault cannon to kill two marines well that’s half a Sisters squad. Points has never been balanced because there’s a refusal to make marines too high in points and an assumption Sisters are better than Guardsmen applying 3rd edition logic. It doesn’t account for bolters not being able to punch through low armour saves or that armour can be degraded or that most units damage output can remove a T3 squad.

Plus it’s an army built around special rules and they’re cutting a lot of them. They’re reliant on them because they can’t alter the profile since they’re humans. Can’t change the weapons as they’re standard Imperial guns and that means the only way to get more damage is to throw various army and special rules at them. A system focused on the basic unit profile, especially if things like Orks being T5 stay or they up Tyranids to compensate that’s going to put them in a bad place.

**a_typical_hero**

"A Grot should be able to go against Mortarion in some form because the Grot is the leader of the Grot army" is such a weird take on the game.

**vipoid**

The Red Hobbit wrote:
Which is great, people have been hoping for less AP for a while to curb lethality instead of Invul proliferation (and later Armor of Contempt)

Invulnerable proliferation like giving basic Terminators a 4++ as standard?

**Tiberias**

Insectum7 wrote:
Breton wrote:

I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.

So like, my IG or Tau commander should be able to go toe to toe with a Custodes Captain?

Yeah, no. F that.

A Daemon Prince should best a Marine Captain, a Greater Daemon should best a Daemon Prince, an Avatar should be roughly on par with a Greater Daemon. The Nightbringer should be up there too, and that tier should be chopping Chapter Masters in half.

Factions should be different. Part of that means not being equal in the "beatstick" category.

100% agreed. The fluff needs to be at least broadly represented in the game, otherwise we don't need factions at all. You can't 100% do it for gameplays sake, but saying marine captain should be able to go toe to toe with a bloodthirster is just beyond idiotic.

**Kanluwen**

a_typical_hero wrote:
"A Grot should be able to go against Mortarion in some form because the Grot is the leader of the Grot army" is such a weird take on the game.

And on the flipside of that, it's such a weird take on the game to feel that something should be entirely unable to do something because of a bad match-up.

That's where we used to be. Nobody's asking for Mabari to be able to one-shot Mortarion or whatever goofy argument you're putting forward here to strawman against.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Insectum7 wrote:
Breton wrote:

I'm saying the "top dog" of each army should (usually) be able to go toe to toe in some form with the "top dog" of any other army.

So like, my IG or Tau commander should be able to go toe to toe with a Custodes Captain?

Yeah, no. F that.

A Daemon Prince should best a Marine Captain, a Greater Daemon should best a Daemon Prince, an Avatar should be roughly on par with a Greater Daemon. The Nightbringer should be up there too, and that tier should be chopping Chapter Masters in half.

Factions should be different. Part of that means not being equal in the "beatstick" category.

Then we need more categories for characters to fulfill and more diverse loadouts.

It's daft that people think Guard Commanders should just explode when engaged in combat, especially considering they insist on giving them "beatstick" loadouts or piddly peashooters like a boltgun on a T3 platform. Tau at least get the ability to load up on more specialized weapons on their Battlesuited Commanders.

**VladimirHerzog**

Kanluwen wrote:

Then we need more categories for characters to fulfill and more diverse loadouts.

It's daft that people think Guard Commanders should just explode when engaged in combat, especially considering they insist on giving them "beatstick" loadouts or piddly peashooters like a boltgun on a T3 platform. Tau at least get the ability to load up on more specialized weapons on their Battlesuited Commanders.

The "Battlesuit" equivalent for your commander is being in a Russ.

**vipoid**

Kanluwen wrote:

Then we need more categories for characters to fulfill and more diverse loadouts.

It's daft that people think Guard Commanders should just explode when engaged in combat, especially considering they insist on giving them "beatstick" loadouts or piddly peashooters like a boltgun on a T3 platform. Tau at least get the ability to load up on more specialized weapons on their Battlesuited Commanders.

It seems a lot of HQs currently suffer from only being able to pick very lacklustre ranged weapons. I guess we'll see if GW uses their bespoke weapon stats system to correct this (somehow I doubt it). As it stands, the most my Dark Eldar can get in that department is a 12" Poison 4+ AP- D1 pistol. And I think the only way to get a decent ranged weapon on an IG HQ is to equip him with a tank!

That said, I would put it forward that Guard Commanders already have solid support mechanics in the form of providing Orders. I'm sure many other HQs would drool over the versatility of Orders, compared with the reroll 1s aura they're usually stuck with.

**Tsagualsa**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

Then we need more categories for characters to fulfill and more diverse loadouts.

It's daft that people think Guard Commanders should just explode when engaged in combat, especially considering they insist on giving them "beatstick" loadouts or piddly peashooters like a boltgun on a T3 platform. Tau at least get the ability to load up on more specialized weapons on their Battlesuited Commanders.

The "Battlesuit" equivalent for your commander is being in a Russ.

That's a bit of a false equivalency, as the Tau solution to e.g. Bloodthirsters is not to rush them with battlesuits, even if that is theoretically possible, but to stuff them full of high-precision and high-lethality shooting, preferably from half a board away.

Viewed through this lense, the guard equivalent is an earthshaker squadron, or some vanquishers.

**Kanluwen**

VladimirHerzog wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:

Then we need more categories for characters to fulfill and more diverse loadouts.

It's daft that people think Guard Commanders should just explode when engaged in combat, especially considering they insist on giving them "beatstick" loadouts or piddly peashooters like a boltgun on a T3 platform. Tau at least get the ability to load up on more specialized weapons on their Battlesuited Commanders.

The "Battlesuit" equivalent for your commander is being in a Russ.

Uh no, that would be a Sentinel.

Longshot being a singular character doesn't change the existence of a Devilfish mounted commander.

**VladimirHerzog**

Tsagualsa wrote:

That's a bit of a false equivalency, as the Tau solution to e.g. Bloodthirsters is not to rush them with battlesuits, even if that is theoretically possible, but to stuff them full of high-precision and high-lethality shooting, preferably from half a board away.

Viewed through this lense, the guard equivalent is an earthshaker squadron, or some vanquishers.

I'm not talking about the dumb Commander vs Greater Demon comparison, i'm talking about Kan's battlesuit comment

**Kanluwen**

vipoid wrote:

It seems a lot of HQs currently suffer from only being able to pick very lacklustre ranged weapons. I guess we'll see if GW uses their bespoke weapon stats system to correct this (somehow I doubt it). As it stands, the most my Dark Eldar can get in that department is a 12" Poison 4+ AP- D1 pistol.

Sure, but that Dark Eldar isn't locked into carrying around 4 backpacks to fulfill a slot.

Worth mentioning as well that in a Cadian Command Squad? Two of those slots are immediately locked into Medic and Vox.

And I think the only way to get a decent ranged weapon on an IG HQ is to equip him with a tank!

Dawn of War 2 did it best, with the Commander being able to take a special weapon choice and then loading the squad out to accompany them.

That said, I would put it forward that Guard Commanders already have solid support mechanics in the form of providing Orders. I'm sure many other HQs would drool over the versatility of Orders, compared with the reroll 1s aura they're usually stuck with.

Yeah yeah yeah Orders are good, but the issue is balancing around simply a dude shouting.