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Ya it all comes down to price.

 Albertorius wrote:
Pretty disappointing to see that the launch box doesn't give you a decent sized force even if you use everything as a single army and that you'll be needing twice as much stuff.

...I mean, I like that the game is meant to feel more epic than that, with proper sized armies, but... that box is pretty naff, for a launch box. The AT launch box amounted to a full AT army (even if not optimized). So did the HH one. This one is about half as much? Ah well.

If the individual boxes' price is not too steep, it might not be that much of an issue... but if they are the price of the AI ones, it will be a pricey game.

At the end of the day, feels like prices will be the ones to make or break this.

The HH box is 1500-2000pts for £180 (though HH is typically played at 3000pts)
The AT launch box was ~1300pts plus a bunch of plastic terrain for £180
The AT starter set was ~1200pts for £105

This Epic box will most likely be priced closer to £105-110. It doesn't have nearly as much plastic as HH Age of Darkness or the AT launch box.

 xttz wrote:

The HH box is 1500-2000pts for £180 (though HH is typically played at 3000pts)
The AT launch box was ~1300pts plus a bunch of plastic terrain for £180
The AT starter set was ~1200pts for £105

This Epic box will most likely be priced closer to £105-110. It doesn't have nearly as much plastic as HH Age of Darkness or the AT launch box.

Hoping it's that or less, certainly.

Same price as current AT starter would feel about right. Same price as Age of Darkness would be absurd.

Age of darkness price would = dead on arrival.

This is about as good as I could expect it to get. GW will milk the hell out of this, and it sounds like its very very unlikely we will ever see 40k era epic again now. However, this does leave room for other companies to keep the 40k era market open much like it always has been. Marine sales might drop, but these 3rd parties can replace marines with cheaper terrain options, new style bases and other bits that will replace sales lost on marines, and can keep turning over things like xenos races without much hassle.

Its the best outcome I could have hoped for, other than there being the announcement of 'Sike! Orks are getting released next month!'.

The only change here is we now have a 5th version of Epic rules to try and there are new plastic marines (instead of 3D prints of official designs)

Even if they stick to 30k I think if the game does well eventually we will get orks.

I mean honestly the setting just isent the same withought orks.

Found on B&C.

so, the FAQ gives aus 2 informations about the size

100+ pieces for a standard game and the launch box is a small force
depending on how you count or what is a piece there are 60 bases+models without base (which is already stupid having infantry and titans on bases but not tanks) meaning 2 times the launch box will be the standard game size or the lower end of the standard game size

paying 250€ (2 time AT level Starter) for a heavily discounted army, would mean ~400€ if you don't need or want 2 times the same stuff

Iracundus wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Long-ish FAQ article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/07/legions-imperialis-your-burning-questions-answered/

Looks like GW has no plans to expand to xenos factions. Guess my wallet will remain closed and I'll be sitting this game out then just as I sat out most of AT. GW keeps leaving money on the table.

If the cost of acquiring the money you are leaving on the table is greater than the cost to acquire other money on the table, then its not worth going for your money.

GW could invest say $200k into producing Orks for the game, and in turn make $500k in revenue, for example... or they could invest that same $200k into, I dunno like new 40k space marine kits or something and make $5 million instead.

GWs decision making is being driven by operational and financial efficiency and nothing more.

It's not like the Heresy hasn't proven popular though. It's a fan-favourite setting and HH2 was both received well by the community and proved to be a big seller for GW. The crowd that goes for things like HH also tends to be the crowd that goes for specialist games like Necromunda or Titanicus so I'd wager GW is marketing to them because it can reasonably make money off them. For mainline 40k players, they will be focussed on 10th for at least the next year and most likely never pick up another ancillary system unless they can use the models they already have like Kill Team.

Rare middle ground for me.

GW may well have plans in place to bring Epic to 40K.

But. Those plans may be merely sketched out (as in, if this does well, we’ll make investment) or more optimistically for all, already being actively worked on.

The game isn’t even out. We’ve not even got our grubby digits on it, or looked at it’s pretty words with our own eyes.

Despite it still somehow being a surprise it some, GW are a For Profit company. As such, there’s little sense in telling people what will or might happen years into the future. They like any company don’t want your Potential Future Munneh. They want your now Munneh.

To day “yes we are” or “we’re thinking about it” can discourage immediate spending.

Like it or lump it? Immediate money is the currency of the realm.

chaos0xomega wrote:

Iracundus wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:
Long-ish FAQ article: https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/07/07/legions-imperialis-your-burning-questions-answered/

Looks like GW has no plans to expand to xenos factions. Guess my wallet will remain closed and I'll be sitting this game out then just as I sat out most of AT. GW keeps leaving money on the table.

If the cost of acquiring the money you are leaving on the table is greater than the cost to acquire other money on the table, then its not worth going for your money.

GW could invest say $200k into producing Orks for the game, and in turn make $500k in revenue, for example... or they could invest that same $200k into, I dunno like new 40k space marine kits or something and make $5 million instead.

GWs decision making is being driven by operational and financial efficiency and nothing more.

Exactly. Let's not forget that unlike us (making guesses based on what we've seen in stores), GW have near-perfect data on how the various parts of their product range performs. They know how often Adeptus Titanicus & HH products have met or exceeded sales forecasts. They know how quickly restocks have sold through. They also know how each specific 40k faction performs against each other and what proportion of their customers are interested in orks versus marines versus eldar, etc.

The fact that a kit released in resin only 12 months ago is already getting a plastic version speaks volumes about their confidence with this setting and this scale.

None of this precludes Epic xenos releases in future of course, it just means GW believe this is the least risky path to growing a new range of products.

GW uses date that Marines sell because they are only doing Marines
well.....

yet no Orcs on HH, ok it is the Heresy and not the Great Crusade

not doing a Great Crusade option for epic would be a missed opportunity

What stands out for me is that GW had an opportunity to be remarkably gakky towards the existing Epic community and hasn't done so:
- New game is base size and shape agnostic (i.e. existing collectors aren't expected to rebase their collections)
-We now have it in writing that old/classic minis are 'legal' (as much as that counts for anything, but will stop officious snobs at tournaments complaining)
- at time of writing, no C&D or anything else towards any of the NetEpic, Net Armageddon or other community rule hubs. (Whether a challenge would have any merit at all is beside the point, quite often a threatening email is all it needs).
-The fact that they are even communicating these things at all, rather than holding it all until day of release, as though their customers are peasants waiting for scraps to be thrown from the dinner table.

This for me is really heartening and shows how GW has grown as a company, in terms of how it interacts with its fanbase, since the early 10s when it felt like all all out war.
I know the potential still remains for the game to be a sack of balls, but for the effort of engagement at least and mindfulness towards the guys who have worked so hard to keep the Epic community running all these years, I am appreciative.

 Gert wrote:
It's not like the Heresy hasn't proven popular though. It's a fan-favourite setting and HH2 was both received well by the community and proved to be a big seller for GW. The crowd that goes for things like HH also tends to be the crowd that goes for specialist games like Necromunda or Titanicus so I'd wager GW is marketing to them because it can reasonably make money off them. For mainline 40k players, they will be focussed on 10th for at least the next year and most likely never pick up another ancillary system unless they can use the models they already have like Kill Team.

Hh yes.

Non-hh was demanded though.

Is non-marine going to sell enough to not produce more hh stuff?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kodos wrote:
GW uses date that Marines sell because they are only doing Marines
well.....

yet no Orcs on HH, ok it is the Heresy and not the Great Crusade

not doing a Great Crusade option for epic would be a missed opportunity

For players.

But for company what matters is profit.

The guys they have hired to do job deem marines bring more profit.,

Without good reason i'm inclined to believe those whose job it is over random internet never-heard-of. After all gw is making millions while these net-guys claiming gw is making huge mistake are making...how much?

tneva82 wrote:
Hh yes.

Non-hh was demanded though.

Is non-marine going to sell enough to not produce more hh stuff?

Of course not because time and time again it's proven that human armies, more specifically Marines sell more than any other individual faction. GW could have put not a single non-Marine figure in that box and it would still get lapped up because people like Space Marines.
Solar Auxilia aren't also going to be considered in the same way they are for regular HH as the core of the army for Legions Imperialis are all plastic. They are essentially Guard with a fancy skin, which might just be equal to the popularity of a Xenos faction but come at less cost for GW to produce because everything Imperial can all be fielded as one army. The only consideration anyone has to make for Legions Imperialis is whether they are going to play Loyalist or Traitor, which is a purely narrative choice.

These releases are following the same pattern as the original releases back in the day. The original "Epic Scale" game was Adeptus Titanicus, which also pretty much introduced the HH. This was followed by 1st Ed Space marine, also taking place during HH, but after 1st was successful they did add some Ork and Eldar units to both Adeptus Titianicus and Space Marine. These games proved popular and profitable enough for GW to release 2nd Ed Space Marine which took place in 40K I think people are forgetting that the first two editions of "Epic Scale" were literally called "Space Marine" not Epic Scale!

Its a huge commitment to jump straight into the 40K universe without a guaranteed seller. Remember the last few times GW went full in on Epic scale...the results were lack luster. When 1st, and even 2nd edition Epic scale were released even 40k was a much simpler game. "Here are some orks and battle wagons, here are eldar and ........grab that wedge of cheese and and invent the falcon." Most of the 40ks diversity didn't even exist when those editions were launched. It was easy to create those starter sets. It will be much more difficult now. If you look at the 2nd ed box there are a lot of miniatures, but there is only one space marine (as in all the marines are exactly the same, not even one cool leader guy....here is a plastic flagpole to designate a commander), there is one rhino, there is one landraider, one eldar, one falcon, one ork, one battlewagon.....just repeated over and over, and they weren't even new! The 2nd ed box was just a release of already existing miniatures as all of those miniatures had already been released for 1st edition, GW has already designed more molds for Legion Imperialis than they did for the launch of 2nd Ed which had to be their most successful and profitable "Epic Scale" Edition.

It wasn't until after 2nd Ed took off that more diverse plastic units and boxes started showing up.

I think the way they are doing this is actually pretty smart. Test the waters and see how it goes. I'm actually amazed they are allowing legacy models to be used (see how long that lasts). With the abundance of Epic models out there still, not to mention the ease of 3D printing epic scale miniatures....GW is taking a risk with this game in the first place, they are not going to commit to making all the 40k armies until they know they have a successful game. People saying they are not going to buy in until its 40k are pretty much dooming it to never happen. I could be wrong but if Legion Imperialis doesn't sell well.....that pretty much guarantees there will be no 40K version. Support it and maybe it will come. I just hope the rules are good enough to establish it as a good game.

I dont know how well AT sold, but I get the feeling that it never expanded to include classic and established Ork and Eldar designs because GW just didn't think the sales of regular AT were good enough to justify adding more factions....again I could be wrong.

My theory as to why Adeptus Titanicus hasn’t moved to 40K is because GW wanted to introduce Epic 30K first. Who knows, maybe AT will get a 40K expansion before Epic does.

My concern with Epic 40K is that GW has created a behemoth in 28mm scale. We have fliers, super heavy tanks, artillery, we can even buy Titans from Forgeworld if we really want to. All things that (in my opinion) should never have made the transition from 6mm to 28mm. Personally I’d be happy if GW discontinued a lot of 40K’s 28mm range to make room for the same models in 6mm. That won’t happen though of course.

 Andrew1975 wrote:
These releases are following the same pattern as the original releases back in the day. The original "Epic Scale" game was Adeptus Titanicus, which also pretty much introduced the HH. This was followed by 1st Ed Space marine, also taking place during HH, but after 1st was successful they did add some Ork and Eldar units to both Adeptus Titianicus and Space Marine. These games proved popular and profitable enough for GW to release 2nd Ed Space Marine which took place in 40K I think people are forgetting that the first two editions of "Epic Scale" were literally called "Space Marine" not Epic Scale!

Its a huge commitment to jump straight into the 40K universe without a guaranteed seller. Remember the last few times GW went full in on Epic scale...the results were lack luster. When 1st, and even 2nd edition Epic scale were released even 40k was a much simpler game. "Here are some orks and battle wagons, here are eldar and ........grab that wedge of cheese and call it a falcon." Most of the 40ks diversity didn't even exist when those editions were launched. It was easy to create those starter sets. It will be much more difficult now. If you look at the 2nd ed box there are a lot of miniatures, but there is only one space marine (as in all the marines are exactly the same), there is one rhino, there is one landraider, one eldar, one falcon, one ork, one battlewagon.....just repeated over and over, and they weren't even new! The 2nd ed box was just a release of already existing miniatures as all of those miniatures had already been released for 1st edition, GW has already designed more molds for Legion Imperialis than they did for the launch of 2nd Ed which had to be their most successful and profitable "Epic Scale" Edition.

It wasn't until after 2nd Ed took off that more diverse plastic units and boxes started showing up.

I think the way they are doing this is actually pretty smart. Test the waters and see how it goes. I'm actually amazed they are allowing legacy models to be used (see how long that lasts). With the abundance of Epic models out there still, not to mention the ease of 3D printing epic scale miniatures....GW is taking a risk with this game in the first place, they are not going to commit to making all the 40k armies until they know they have a successful game. People saying they are not going to buy in until its 40k are pretty much dooming it to never happen. I could be wrong but if Legion Imperialis doesn't sell well.....that pretty much guarantees there will be no 40K version. Support it and maybe it will come. I just hope the rules are good enough to establish it as a good game.

I dont know how well AT sold, but I get the feeling that it never expanded to include classic and established Ork and Eldar designs because GW just didn't think the sales of regular AT were good enough to justify adding more factions....again I could be wrong.

Thank You! it doesn't take a business degree to figure out their release strategy here, it just takes some pattern recognition and a little knowledge of GW's history:

Big Stompy Robots set in the HH lets you use the same molds on both sides. Easy to produce, easy to balance, small number of sculpts

Success of Big Stompy Robots funds and justifies the creation of Mass Combat Tiny Game, also set in the HH - more sculpts, but still less than developing multiple different ranges, everyone can use everything (and Space marines are popular, so you have an almost guaranteed player base)

[You are here]

Success of Mass Combat Tiny Game justifies Mass Combat Tiny Game with More Races, catering to the players of less popular factions by using the profits of previous iterations (and continued sales of Tiny Space Marines and Big Stompy Robots

If LI does well you'll get your tiny orks and mini Eldar

tneva82 wrote:

For players.
But for company what matters is profit.
The guys they have hired to do job deem marines bring more profit.,
Without good reason i'm inclined to believe those whose job it is over random internet never-heard-of. After all gw is making millions while these net-guys claiming gw is making huge mistake are making...how much?

now I am curious, how is GW not making Millions if they bring in Orcs for new Epic?
you really think GW would not make profit but lose money if the bring anything but Marines?
anything to back that up except "GW knows what they are doing"?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Charax wrote:
If LI does well you'll get your tiny orks and mini Eldar

and which of the above indicates that?
what makes GW think that people are buying Xenos in Horus Heresy if Marines sell well?
would the conclusion not be to make more Marines because those are selling?

how did the success of Space Marines in 40k lead to Xenos get more units?

 kodos wrote:


how did the success of Space Marines in 40k lead to Xenos get more units?

Financial buffer from the marines allows extra budget to take the risks and tooling on less popular factions, GW even said this at some point.

if IL sells we see Xenos, in one post while the other claims GW won't make millions of the release a single xenos factions

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

and the financial backup from GW is big enough that Orcs on release would not have got them into any financial trouble

this is not an indy company were releasing a plastic kit that won't sell well is going to ruin them
this is a multi million company were the question is just if it sells well or sells out no matter what they release

Charax wrote:

 Andrew1975 wrote:
These releases are following the same pattern as the original releases back in the day. The original "Epic Scale" game was Adeptus Titanicus, which also pretty much introduced the HH. This was followed by 1st Ed Space marine, also taking place during HH, but after 1st was successful they did add some Ork and Eldar units to both Adeptus Titianicus and Space Marine. These games proved popular and profitable enough for GW to release 2nd Ed Space Marine which took place in 40K I think people are forgetting that the first two editions of "Epic Scale" were literally called "Space Marine" not Epic Scale!

Its a huge commitment to jump straight into the 40K universe without a guaranteed seller. Remember the last few times GW went full in on Epic scale...the results were lack luster. When 1st, and even 2nd edition Epic scale were released even 40k was a much simpler game. "Here are some orks and battle wagons, here are eldar and ........grab that wedge of cheese and call it a falcon." Most of the 40ks diversity didn't even exist when those editions were launched. It was easy to create those starter sets. It will be much more difficult now. If you look at the 2nd ed box there are a lot of miniatures, but there is only one space marine (as in all the marines are exactly the same), there is one rhino, there is one landraider, one eldar, one falcon, one ork, one battlewagon.....just repeated over and over, and they weren't even new! The 2nd ed box was just a release of already existing miniatures as all of those miniatures had already been released for 1st edition, GW has already designed more molds for Legion Imperialis than they did for the launch of 2nd Ed which had to be their most successful and profitable "Epic Scale" Edition.

It wasn't until after 2nd Ed took off that more diverse plastic units and boxes started showing up.

I think the way they are doing this is actually pretty smart. Test the waters and see how it goes. I'm actually amazed they are allowing legacy models to be used (see how long that lasts). With the abundance of Epic models out there still, not to mention the ease of 3D printing epic scale miniatures....GW is taking a risk with this game in the first place, they are not going to commit to making all the 40k armies until they know they have a successful game. People saying they are not going to buy in until its 40k are pretty much dooming it to never happen. I could be wrong but if Legion Imperialis doesn't sell well.....that pretty much guarantees there will be no 40K version. Support it and maybe it will come. I just hope the rules are good enough to establish it as a good game.

I dont know how well AT sold, but I get the feeling that it never expanded to include classic and established Ork and Eldar designs because GW just didn't think the sales of regular AT were good enough to justify adding more factions....again I could be wrong.

Thank You! it doesn't take a business degree to figure out their release strategy here, it just takes some pattern recognition and a little knowledge of GW's history:

Big Stompy Robots set in the HH lets you use the same molds on both sides. Easy to produce, easy to balance, small number of sculpts

Success of Big Stompy Robots funds and justifies the creation of Mass Combat Tiny Game, also set in the HH - more sculpts, but still less than developing multiple different ranges, everyone can use everything (and Space marines are popular, so you have an almost guaranteed player base)

[You are here]

Success of Mass Combat Tiny Game justifies Mass Combat Tiny Game with More Races, catering to the players of less popular factions by using the profits of previous iterations (and continued sales of Tiny Space Marines and Big Stompy Robots

If LI does well you'll get your tiny orks and mini Eldar

How many times has GW ramped up and released a full version of Epic Scale only to lose their ass when it doesn't sell well? I remember buying blisters of later epic editions from the discount rack pretty quickly after their release. If the rules are not good, or the sales aren't there the game just dies. Leaving GW and retailers holding a bad bag of product. I can't think of another GW game Ive seen fail so many times. GW games usually goes from edition to edition....Epic just dies! Only 1st and 2nd ed were actually successful if I am remembering correctly. The rest I dont think lasted more than a single cycle. Thats a significant risk made even more so by 3D printing. People that demand instant Epic 40k have probably never seen racks upon racks of discount product sitting on shelves.

That's true, last editions of Epic didn't sell that well.

Makes perfect sense to focus on Horus Heresy, which is basically just the same armies thrown against each other with different color schemes (civil war sure has it good on that matter).

Also, if both sides have exactly the same ressources at their disposal, it helps a lot for balance. One side can't complain they don't have access to OP unit if the other has the exact same on their own.

Let's trust GW on this one, we'll see how it goes on long term.

 kodos wrote:
if IL sells we see Xenos, in one post while the other claims GW won't make millions of the release a single xenos factions

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

and the financial backup from GW is big enough that Orcs on release would not have got them into any financial trouble

this is not an indy company were releasing a plastic kit that won't sell well is going to ruin them
this is a multi million company were the question is just if it sells well or sells out no matter what they release

Tell that to the other editions of Epic Scale where GW and retailers lost their asses.....at this point if GW releases as Epic in 40K...they cant just add one more faction....people would lose their minds. People are losing their minds right already when the background of HH actually fits just marines. If epic in 40k was released with just marines and Eldar.......people would go crazy. Marines are easy. How many different ork sculpts would it take to make an army?

 kodos wrote:

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

It's not that simple. GW doesn't know if they will lose money or make money with anything they release. That's the nature of business. To some degree, every new product is a gamble. The more novel the product, the bigger the bet. There is no reason for a healthy business to make huge risky bets when they have the option to bet conservatively. Which do you think is more risky, trying to sell space marines or trying to sell space marines + xenos?

While I realize that some folks are heresy heads who don't care about the 40K setting and its associated factions...it's not hard to understand that 40K non-SM factions have far larger followings than 30K non-SM factions. And those followings represent a certain amount of potential sales that just won't happen with this approach.

What GW doing isn't brilliant or risk-free. It just shifts the risk. They've reduced their risk of overreaching with the risk of underreaching. You can say that it's better this way, but it isn't necessarily good in business to underperform the opportunity. Especially with a launch, IMO. Now is when you want to crush it with sales, not just make a little money and see how it goes.

Doesn't matter -- it is what it is. But I'll say it again that the folks hoping for a slew of 30K factions for LI should really pay attention to how conservatively GW is playing it here.

Tbh Solar Auxilia out the gate is already far less conservative than I was expecting.

 kodos wrote:
if IL sells we see Xenos, in one post while the other claims GW won't make millions of the release a single xenos factions

well if losing money is the reason why they don't do it, it will always be the reason and no matter how much money something else makes, they won't do it because they lose money with it

and the financial backup from GW is big enough that Orcs on release would not have got them into any financial trouble

this is not an indy company were releasing a plastic kit that won't sell well is going to ruin them
this is a multi million company were the question is just if it sells well or sells out no matter what they release

Nobody said Xenos would have to make millions, it would just need to generate enough interest which chances are it won't. Every single Imperial unit be it Space Marine, Solar Auxilia, Titan, Mechanicum, or Knight can be bought and used by every single player in Legions Imperialis. Not every single non-Imperial unit can be bought and used by every non-Imperial player in a hypothetical scenario.
With the launch of a brand new game, presenting a smaller option of choices that maximise player choice and spending is the better choice for GW, a choice made easier by having a setting ready-made for such a thing.
It's not about a Xenos release for LI crashing the company, it's about the longevity of a product line and the hard truth is that humans sell better than Xenos.