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Now we have a clearer idea of what a given purchase will offer (multiple units on a single sprue), it does make me encouraged we may well see this expanded to cover Xenos forces. Because it’s suggestive of each force not needing many SKU’s, reducing development cost and time.
You could even do “eras” boxed sets. For instance, when introducing Orks? Rejig the Imperial Forces for “historical accuracy” and do it as War of the Beast. Tyranids? Hive Fleet Behemoth. Necrons? Pariah Nexus. Eldar? Look just do them OK.
Lots of ways that Xenos can be drip fed. Definitely start with Orks though. Orks rule, have some gorgeous, extant big units, and who wouldnt want to play out Ullanor?
This might be a niche analogy, but if anyone remembers Firestorm: Planetfall, it was a similarly scaled game sold essentially in those sort of formations/cards of mixed units. In practice it is pretty fun as a buyer, but also nice for retail, as say six SKUs can represent a whole diverse, interesting, and complete army.
Now we have a clearer idea of what a given purchase will offer (multiple units on a single sprue), it does make me encouraged we may well see this expanded to cover Xenos forces. Because it’s suggestive of each force not needing many SKU’s, reducing development cost and time.
You could even do “eras” boxed sets. For instance, when introducing Orks? Rejig the Imperial Forces for “historical accuracy” and do it as War of the Beast. Tyranids? Hive Fleet Behemoth. Necrons? Pariah Nexus. Eldar? Look just do them OK.
Lots of ways that Xenos can be drip fed. Definitely start with Orks though. Orks rule, have some gorgeous, extant big units, and who wouldnt want to play out Ullanor?
Yeah, with the capabilities of CAD software and how much stuff they can cram onto a single sprue, having a boxed set that includes lots of different things under a single SKU is much easier to manage than a bunch of individual boxes.
It's also more annoying as a consumer if you only want part of the box rather than doubling/tripling/etc up on everything, but I fully expect that we'll see the individual components split out and sold separately by eBay resellers at the very least.
Fingers crossed you're right and it does encourage GW to branch out- but I won't hold my breath.
Now we have a clearer idea of what a given purchase will offer (multiple units on a single sprue), it does make me encouraged we may well see this expanded to cover Xenos forces. Because it’s suggestive of each force not needing many SKU’s, reducing development cost and time.
You could even do “eras” boxed sets. For instance, when introducing Orks? Rejig the Imperial Forces for “historical accuracy” and do it as War of the Beast. Tyranids? Hive Fleet Behemoth. Necrons? Pariah Nexus. Eldar? Look just do them OK.
Lots of ways that Xenos can be drip fed. Definitely start with Orks though. Orks rule, have some gorgeous, extant big units, and who wouldnt want to play out Ullanor?
Yeah, with the capabilities of CAD software and how much stuff they can cram onto a single sprue, having a boxed set that includes lots of different things under a single SKU is much easier to manage than a bunch of individual boxes.
It's also more annoying as a consumer if you only want part of the box rather than doubling/tripling/etc up on everything, but I fully expect that we'll see the individual components split out and sold separately by eBay resellers at the very least.
Fingers crossed you're right and it does encourage GW to branch out- but I won't hold my breath.
Shame that the age of dirt-cheap blister packs is over at GW, Epic really profited from that as it was pretty much the perfect format to roll out a handful of tanks or a brace of flyers or whatever.
This. This is what I want from Epic when playing Imperial Guard or Solar Auxilia. Around turn three or four, when I’ve made a bother of myself in the early game, ideally at least frustrated your Objective grabs, and got you and your units lined just about nice….and the my entire army is assigned First Fire….
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
Pacific wrote: There are a lot of factors that will help decide whether the game will be a success. It's almost a tick-box list, and the more that GW hit will decide if this thread gets to 100 pages plus, or if in three years time it's just a few of us back down in the Specialist Games section basement. Think you can apply this to any new wargame:
I am sure there are other factors to consider but these were the ones that sprang to mind. I would say LI has the first three items confirmed there. Where it falls on the other four items will determine the level of success.
Love this list.
I would just add Community Engagement to this list. If people are actively discussing it online and posting their models/games, and reviewers/influencers take it up, that also helps a great deal.
+ there is absolutely ZERO competitors that offer minis+rules, for games of massive battles and small minis.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/21 20:30:58
SU-152 wrote: + there is absolutely ZERO competitors that offer minis+rules, for games of massive battles and small minis.
Nope. Fan-made/supported versions of Epic exist and there are abundant third-party miniatures.
Yep, none of those make minis+rules
Certainly none of them offer 'all out of one hand' as a convenient package like GW does, don't underestimate the importance of convenience and a neat presentation. It's like comparing Linux to Apple: yes, one is overpriced and mostly profitable because of a cult-like following, and the other might even be vastly superior from a technical point of view, but the convenience of going to the high-street store beats having to build your machine yourself and studying the operating system for months for a lot of customers.
Tsagualsa wrote: Certainly none of them offer 'all out of one hand' as a convenient package like GW does, don't underestimate the importance of convenience and a neat presentation. It's like comparing Linux to Apple: yes, one is overpriced and mostly profitable because of a cult-like following, and the other might even be vastly superior from a technical point of view, but the convenience of going to the high-street store beats having to build your machine yourself and studying the operating system for months for a lot of customers.
That's a good analogy but the original claim was that GW has no competition, not that they are an easier package than the competition. If GW botches the rules to not-Epic like they did with AI 2.0 people will deal with the inconvenience of getting forces from multiple 3d printing shops.
SU-152 wrote: + there is absolutely ZERO competitors that offer minis+rules, for games of massive battles and small minis.
...you're saying this with a straight face? Because the only way I can see this being anything near to true is saying "there is absolutely ZERO competitors that offer minis+rules, for games of massive battles and small minis in the Warhammer 30k universe"
For starters, Battletech/Alpha Strike says "hi". Right after Warlord Games and their "Epic" games lines, or Distopian Wars...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tsagualsa wrote: Certainly none of them offer 'all out of one hand' as a convenient package like GW does, don't underestimate the importance of convenience and a neat presentation. It's like comparing Linux to Apple: yes, one is overpriced and mostly profitable because of a cult-like following, and the other might even be vastly superior from a technical point of view, but the convenience of going to the high-street store beats having to build your machine yourself and studying the operating system for months for a lot of customers.
Flinty wrote: The Hardwar chaps picked up Horizon Wars and have an associated set of factions at about that scale.
Bit of an oversimplication, Hardwar licensed the Horizon Wars ruleset and commissioned Robey to adapt it to suit Hardwar's range of minis (Because Horizon Wars is minis-agnostic, whereas Hardwar has stats for particular models and rules for some things that Horizon Wars does not)
but yes, Hardwar has both rules and minis in the same place. Actually so does Horizon Wars since Precinct Omega became a reseller for Strato Minis, so they both kind of cross-pollinate
Pacific wrote: There are a lot of factors that will help decide whether the game will be a success. It's almost a tick-box list, and the more that GW hit will decide if this thread gets to 100 pages plus, or if in three years time it's just a few of us back down in the Specialist Games section basement. Think you can apply this to any new wargame:
I am sure there are other factors to consider but these were the ones that sprang to mind. I would say LI has the first three items confirmed there. Where it falls on the other four items will determine the level of success.
Love this list.
I would just add Community Engagement to this list. If people are actively discussing it online and posting their models/games, and reviewers/influencers take it up, that also helps a great deal.
+ there is absolutely ZERO competitors that offer minis+rules, for games of massive battles and small minis.
You are kidding right, Flames of war, Team Yankee, Dropzone Commander, There are tons of games that offer minis + rules from massive battles of small minis, pick your era, Historical, modern, Sci Fi, Fantasy...you can find a game. Now granted my favorite out of all of these is probably 2nd ed Epic, but there are options.
"I don't have principles, and I consider any comment otherwise to be both threatening and insulting" - Dogma
"No, sorry, synonymous does not mean same".-Dogma
"If I say "I will hug you" I am threatening you" -Dogma
SU-152 wrote: + there is absolutely ZERO competitors that offer minis+rules, for games of massive battles and small minis.
Nope. Fan-made/supported versions of Epic exist and there are abundant third-party miniatures.
Yep, none of those make minis+rules
Certainly none of them offer 'all out of one hand' as a convenient package like GW does, don't underestimate the importance of convenience and a neat presentation. It's like comparing Linux to Apple: yes, one is overpriced and mostly profitable because of a cult-like following, and the other might even be vastly superior from a technical point of view, but the convenience of going to the high-street store beats having to build your machine yourself and studying the operating system for months for a lot of customers.
My original comment was too cranky so I edited it Actually having a linux pc is very similar to having a windows one in anything but gaming since a long ago. In the same way getting an epic group when it was an undead game, no official support but plenty of third party miniatures, may not have been much harder that it will be with a new official release. My view may be skewed for not living in a big city but I think that meeting someone that plays 40k or AoS is much easier than meeting players of other GW games, with the exception of blood bowl by being so accesible as you only need one team to play. So I expect that after the first rush it will be hard to find other players. It will be easier to find the GW kits but if the price is similar to the other lines people will have too much sticker shock to take any advantage of that acessibility. I may be projecting from my own experience but I was used to the prices until two years ago or a bit less and after that I have had a very serious case of sticker shock. Having acess to single issues of the partworks hasnt helped as it gives a negative anchoring to the normal prices.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/22 01:41:37
Light your way in the darkness with the pyres of burning heretics.
No competition to GW? What about Full Spectrum Dominance by The Lazy Forger? But if you wanna stay in the 40k universe there’s fanmade stuff such as NetEpic, Centurion, and others.
If you want to stay directly within the 30k universe, there are already two community-made systems with rulesets, heavily playtested and ready to go:
- HeresyAu (based on the Armageddon system)
- Imperialis Dominatus (based on 2nd edition/TL)
Downloads for the rules PDFs for these games will go through the roof if the new GW-written game is crap (although with it reportedly based on 2nd edition, I wouldn't be surprised if it's very similar to Imperialis)
Now we have a clearer idea of what a given purchase will offer (multiple units on a single sprue), it does make me encouraged we may well see this expanded to cover Xenos forces. Because it’s suggestive of each force not needing many SKU’s, reducing development cost and time.
You could even do “eras” boxed sets. For instance, when introducing Orks? Rejig the Imperial Forces for “historical accuracy” and do it as War of the Beast. Tyranids? Hive Fleet Behemoth. Necrons? Pariah Nexus. Eldar? Look just do them OK.
Lots of ways that Xenos can be drip fed. Definitely start with Orks though. Orks rule, have some gorgeous, extant big units, and who wouldnt want to play out Ullanor?
Yeah, with the capabilities of CAD software and how much stuff they can cram onto a single sprue, having a boxed set that includes lots of different things under a single SKU is much easier to manage than a bunch of individual boxes.
It's also more annoying as a consumer if you only want part of the box rather than doubling/tripling/etc up on everything, but I fully expect that we'll see the individual components split out and sold separately by eBay resellers at the very least.
Fingers crossed you're right and it does encourage GW to branch out- but I won't hold my breath.
Assuming individual matters and not you add to list content of that box as is. Want more leviathan's to list? Add 2nd formation.
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Malika2 wrote: No competition to GW? What about Full Spectrum Dominance by The Lazy Forger? But if you wanna stay in the 40k universe there’s fanmade stuff such as NetEpic, Centurion, and others.
Netepic produces their own miniatures?
Claim was rules +miniatures. Aka both.
Still inaccurate but any only rule or only miniature suggestion misses pint so hard to be on diffrerent galaxy managing to prove not actually have read what he posted to begin with.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/22 06:51:53
I would have said the other way around, because there are popular games in that scale, GW is investing into Epic before the competition gets too popular
That it is human vs human would also mean Battletech is their main competition were human vs alien is Dropzone Commander
Battletech becomes popular again, GW brings Titanicus back
Battletech Alpha Strike gets starter set and launch a vehicle KS, GW brings Epic 30k
There is a reason why terrain in that scale is already available, because there are other games using it
And the concept that the company making the rules must be the one making the minis for easy access is not true specially with GW as it is often easier to get 3rd party stuff rather than the original in some places
For other games, Frostgrave or SAGA, have a different company doing rules and miniatures and you still get starter sets
There is a difference between no dedicated miniatures available for that game, or the dedicated miniatures are made by a different company, because guess what GW is the only one with its own company, even Catalyst does not make the models for BT but a different company
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
Now we have a clearer idea of what a given purchase will offer (multiple units on a single sprue), it does make me encouraged we may well see this expanded to cover Xenos forces. Because it’s suggestive of each force not needing many SKU’s, reducing development cost and time.
You could even do “eras” boxed sets. For instance, when introducing Orks? Rejig the Imperial Forces for “historical accuracy” and do it as War of the Beast. Tyranids? Hive Fleet Behemoth. Necrons? Pariah Nexus. Eldar? Look just do them OK.
Lots of ways that Xenos can be drip fed. Definitely start with Orks though. Orks rule, have some gorgeous, extant big units, and who wouldnt want to play out Ullanor?
With us having seen the Legion Support box contents, and assuming the launch box contains a 'Legion Battleline' or some such, then there's only really a 'Legion Assault' box to go to round out the infantry.
That battleline, support, assault approach could be repeated, so just 3 SKUs of infantry per faction, plus at least two SKUs of vehicles and you've got a viable force that can be expanded upon later. That seems quite manageable for a gradual expansion of the game.
Pacific wrote: If you want to stay directly within the 30k universe, there are already two community-made systems with rulesets, heavily playtested and ready to go:
- HeresyAu (based on the Armageddon system)
- Imperialis Dominatus (based on 2nd edition/TL)
Downloads for the rules PDFs for these games will go through the roof if the new GW-written game is crap (although with it reportedly based on 2nd edition, I wouldn't be surprised if it's very similar to Imperialis)
I'm actually a wee bit concerned about the future of Imperialis Dominatus. Epic Imperialis might turn out to be so similar to it, that GW will send CND's and Imperialis Dominatus will be forced to live on under the roof of Internet Archive's mirrors..
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/07/22 09:55:35
"The larger point though, is that as players, we have more control over what the game looks and feels like than most of us are willing to use in order to solve our own problems"
I remember there was also Defeat in the Detail as attempt to sell rules with epic-sized miniatures. It's just that it wasn't the same availability that GW is only able to offer (with their stores and such).
It's more a matter of network than anything else. Let's face it : no "competitor" of GW has the reach and the dedicated stores that GW has. GW spent years and invested ton of money in establishing them. No competitor did the same. That's why they're still the most popular and resilient on the market.
I think the IP advantage is also massive here as it's hard to relate to Epic scaled miniatures, any new game with a new setting that doesn't have factions with a pre existing massively invested following has a big drawback there.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2023/07/22 10:34:08
The old meta is dead and the new meta struggles to be born. Now is the time of munchkins.
lord_blackfang wrote: I think the IP advantage is also massive here as it's hard to relate to Epic scaled miniatures, any new game with a new setting that doesn't have factions with a pre existing massively invested following has a big drawback there.
Well that's why we have people selling "proxies" for Epic 40k and assimilated. They know there's a market for that and for a long time, since GW has left that field, they simply filled the void. That market is mostly made of fans nostalgic of old Epic game systems and still use them, so of course they're not that interested in a "new game in a new setting".
That's also why historical games are still a constant thing after all this time. There's no better no richer background or setting for wargames than the ones our own history has to offer.
Building a new setting / universe takes time and investment. You can't build that in the blink of an eye. And unfortunately, the current miniature market is so bloated with new games that there's barely enough space for something original. Because our time is finite and we simply can't play everything, we as customers must make choices...and we will tend to take the safest one. There's no bitter end than investing a lot of your time and money in a game that end up "dead" because the company gave up / stopped support /went bankrupt and there's no one else to play with.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2023/07/22 10:49:52
Pacific wrote: If you want to stay directly within the 30k universe, there are already two community-made systems with rulesets, heavily playtested and ready to go:
- HeresyAu (based on the Armageddon system)
- Imperialis Dominatus (based on 2nd edition/TL)
Downloads for the rules PDFs for these games will go through the roof if the new GW-written game is crap (although with it reportedly based on 2nd edition, I wouldn't be surprised if it's very similar to Imperialis)
I'm actually a wee bit concerned about the future of Imperialis Dominatus. Epic Imperialis might turn out to be so similar to it, that GW will send CND's and Imperialis Dominatus will be forced to live on under the roof of Internet Archive's mirrors..
I really hope not, I know that game was years of work and a real labour of love for the guys that did it.
From what I have read they were very careful not to infringe on IP, have not used any GW stock artwork (they even did their own designs of the silhouettes of each unit) so hopefully won't fall foul in the same way as the Warhammer Armies project did.
There is also a possibility that they are small enough to fly under the radar, as I think even within the Epic community it has a smaller player base than either NetEpic or NetArmaggedon.
On a separate note there is also an... unsavoury element (I'm not sure if that is the right way to put it, just something that feels "wrong") to go after the people that kept the system alive over the past 20 years, in different communities with the constant rule updates, community curated rules, organised tournaments etc. and in all cases (that I know of) didn't make any money at all from doing so. They just did it because they loved the game. So I hope GW will keep the gun holstered.
With regard to price, I hope that GW is aware of the competition of 3D printing for miniatures at this scale and keeps the prices to a reasonable level.
For the launch box, reasonable prices for me would be:
Warhound Titans 60€
unit (2-4 models) of tanks 20€/each (5-10€ per tank)
everything on a 25mm base 2.50€/base
rulebook and game accessories 50€
So a total of 310€.
With the usual discount of 30-50% for starter bundles, I expect 150€ to 200€ for the launch box.
For the support box, a reasonable price for me would be 40-50€, which translates to
an average of 2.50€ to 3€ per base.
Of course cheaper would be better, not only for anybody interested in the miniatures but also to get the game off to a good start.
The setting (most releases target all players) and bundles (e.g. the support box) gives hope that GW targets a lower price point.
However, these advantages could be neutralized by a relatively low player base.
So, let's way and see.
Warhammer CE the definite ruleset for Warhammer veterans
Seelenhaendler wrote: With regard to price, I hope that GW is aware of the competition of 3D printing for miniatures at this scale and keeps the prices to a reasonable level.
I think the concern here is less what GW is aware of, and more what GW expects the average HHHobbyist to know about 3d printing and the average cost of 6mm figures.
11527pts Total (7400pts painted)
4980pts Total (4980pts painted)
3730 Total (210pts painted) 
Cadre Coronal Afterglow w1;d0;l0 
