Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
True that.

I can’t put into words just how enthused I am for this! I’ve craved Epic returning for years now. Whilst we should be careful what we wish for, I’m glad this seems to be an exception to that rule.

The best part is it's releasing next month. I was worried they were going to pull another "Old World" by announcing it like 5 years in advance.

I don’t think this is gonna be more than £120.

The sprues involved are pretty modest, and nowhere near the number involved for Leviathan, each being a “half sized” sprue.

Here’s a crazy thought. What if, outside of the main rulebook, HH 28mm and 8mm shared the same expansions/campaign books?

So you get big hardback volume with tonnes of lore and imagery, as well as rules and unit profiles for both games, and scenarios/missions for both games?

MrHobbles wrote:
Here’s a crazy thought. What if, outside of the main rulebook, HH 28mm and 8mm shared the same expansions/campaign books?

So you get big hardback volume with tonnes of lore and imagery, as well as rules and unit profiles for both games, and scenarios/missions for both games?

What would stop you from using the current books and doing the same thing?

 TalonZahn wrote:

MrHobbles wrote:
Here’s a crazy thought. What if, outside of the main rulebook, HH 28mm and 8mm shared the same expansions/campaign books?

So you get big hardback volume with tonnes of lore and imagery, as well as rules and unit profiles for both games, and scenarios/missions for both games?

What would stop you from using the current books and doing the same thing?

What do you mean? There are no rules for Legions Imperialis units in the current main Horus Heresy books.

MrHobbles wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:

MrHobbles wrote:
Here’s a crazy thought. What if, outside of the main rulebook, HH 28mm and 8mm shared the same expansions/campaign books?

So you get big hardback volume with tonnes of lore and imagery, as well as rules and unit profiles for both games, and scenarios/missions for both games?

What would stop you from using the current books and doing the same thing?

What do you mean? There are no rules for Legions Imperialis units in the current main Horus Heresy books.

I mean, you already have the cool HH hardbacks you wanted, the scenarios in the same books, and either force lists or points limits.

All you need from there is the Imperialis points ( or use 1 of 3 already out there ) and you have what you want.

How are they not already shared?

Only Siege of Cthonia has come out and it only had a couple of named characters (which in previous Epic didn't matter) and a couple Legion Specific units ( which didn't really play a part in older versions of Epic and are already accounted for in rules out there).

 TalonZahn wrote:
I mean, you already have the cool HH hardbacks you wanted, the scenarios in the same books, and either force lists or points limits.

All you need from there is the Imperialis points ( or use 1 of 3 already out there ) and you have what you want.

How are they not already shared?

Only Siege of Cthonia has come out and it only had a couple of named characters (which in previous Epic didn't matter) and a couple Legion Specific units ( which didn't really play a part in older versions of Epic and are already accounted for in rules out there).

My point is, I'm almost certain at some point in the future GW will come out with another book for LI. Perhaps it has more units, perhaps it covers a specific campaign like the Aeronautica expansions. I'm proposing it's possible that instead of releasing separate books for HH 28mm and 8mm, they combine them into one and the same.

Of course I can do whatever I want with whatever books I have and house rule whatever. But that's a different discussion. I'm speculating as to GW's release plan, or at least, imagining how future releases can go.

MrHobbles wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
I mean, you already have the cool HH hardbacks you wanted, the scenarios in the same books, and either force lists or points limits.

All you need from there is the Imperialis points ( or use 1 of 3 already out there ) and you have what you want.

How are they not already shared?

Only Siege of Cthonia has come out and it only had a couple of named characters (which in previous Epic didn't matter) and a couple Legion Specific units ( which didn't really play a part in older versions of Epic and are already accounted for in rules out there).

My point is, I'm almost certain at some point in the future GW will come out with another book for LI. Perhaps it has more units, perhaps it covers a specific campaign like the Aeronautica expansions. I'm proposing it's possible that instead of releasing separate books for HH 28mm and 8mm, they combine them into one and the same.

Of course I can do whatever I want with whatever books I have and house rule whatever. But that's a different discussion. I'm speculating as to GW's release plan, or at least, imagining how future releases can go.

What they need to do is bring Battle fleet gothic back and make a combined campaign system for all of HH.

MrHobbles wrote:
Here’s a crazy thought. What if, outside of the main rulebook, HH 28mm and 8mm shared the same expansions/campaign books?

So you get big hardback volume with tonnes of lore and imagery, as well as rules and unit profiles for both games, and scenarios/missions for both games?

Well, I for one would probably riot if GW forced me to buy material from a game I don't want to play another I do.

MrHobbles wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
I mean, you already have the cool HH hardbacks you wanted, the scenarios in the same books, and either force lists or points limits.

All you need from there is the Imperialis points ( or use 1 of 3 already out there ) and you have what you want.

How are they not already shared?

Only Siege of Cthonia has come out and it only had a couple of named characters (which in previous Epic didn't matter) and a couple Legion Specific units ( which didn't really play a part in older versions of Epic and are already accounted for in rules out there).

My point is, I'm almost certain at some point in the future GW will come out with another book for LI. Perhaps it has more units, perhaps it covers a specific campaign like the Aeronautica expansions. I'm proposing it's possible that instead of releasing separate books for HH 28mm and 8mm, they combine them into one and the same.

Of course I can do whatever I want with whatever books I have and house rule whatever. But that's a different discussion. I'm speculating as to GW's release plan, or at least, imagining how future releases can go.

They did that with Imperial Armour Volume 3 back in the day. It had rules for Tau in 40k, Epic and BFG in one book. Imperial Armour 9 had an expanded BFG Space Marine fleet list as well. I wouldn't be surprised if they do that now as it'd allow them to push both games through an expanded campaign system in a single book.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I don’t think this is gonna be more than £120.

The sprues involved are pretty modest, and nowhere near the number involved for Leviathan, each being a “half sized” sprue.

I'm really hoping you're right on this Mad Doc.
However, I'm not convinced GW beancounters won't just look at the 'mini count', or even expect lower sales so have to up the price to make enough profit.

I also worry, I'm going to have to be pressing 'refresh' a lot at bang on 10am and hope I get a copy. Do we trust GW to make enough? They couldn't even manage it for the Necromunda rulebook.

 Gimgamgoo wrote:

I also worry, I'm going to have to be pressing 'refresh' a lot at bang on 10am and hope I get a copy. Do we trust GW to make enough? They couldn't even manage it for the Necromunda rulebook.

I recommend going to your FLGS now and registering an 'expression of interest', to get your name down on a set. They will also know the Monday before 'preorder day' what the cost is going to be.

My personal hope (as a store owner) is that this game is not 'soft locked' to traders (like the Necromunda revised rule book) to 2 per store, or some such rubbish.

Has anyone seen clear confirmation from GW yet on if this box is limited, or a longterm product like Age of Darkness?

It's the kind of question they'd normally answer via Twitter / Instagram etc, but I don't have accounts for any of them.

 xttz wrote:
Has anyone seen clear confirmation from GW yet on if this box is limited, or a longterm product like Age of Darkness?

It's the kind of question they'd normally answer via Twitter / Instagram etc, but I don't have accounts for any of them.

Yesterday's article said (in the video) that this is not a one-box game, that they plan to keep it available for long time, that it will get expansions and that they see this as 'the start of a new hobby'. While that does not outright say that this is not a limited launch box, it strongly implies that.

Tsagualsa wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Has anyone seen clear confirmation from GW yet on if this box is limited, or a longterm product like Age of Darkness?

It's the kind of question they'd normally answer via Twitter / Instagram etc, but I don't have accounts for any of them.

Yesterday's article said (in the video) that this is not a one-box game, that they plan to keep it available for long time, that it will get expansions and that they see this as 'the start of a new hobby'. While that does not outright say that this is not a limited launch box, it strongly implies that.

Nothing of this is talking about the box itself? The game will of course stay and get expansions but they didn't talk about the launch box in this part of the video as far as I understood

I'm hyped for this. I remember playing many games of space marine against my brother. The game just feels right at this scale.
It is a pity GW have not made the sprue itself look like barricades, rubble, building parts... I'm sure it's something to do with ensuring a consistent flow in the molding process but still. There is going to be a lot of sprue left over.

 Matrindur wrote:

Tsagualsa wrote:

 xttz wrote:
Has anyone seen clear confirmation from GW yet on if this box is limited, or a longterm product like Age of Darkness?

It's the kind of question they'd normally answer via Twitter / Instagram etc, but I don't have accounts for any of them.

Yesterday's article said (in the video) that this is not a one-box game, that they plan to keep it available for long time, that it will get expansions and that they see this as 'the start of a new hobby'. While that does not outright say that this is not a limited launch box, it strongly implies that.

Nothing of this is talking about the box itself? The game will of course stay and get expansions but they didn't talk about the launch box in this part of the video as far as I understood

Did they call it as launch box or starter?

tneva82 wrote:

Did they call it as launch box or starter?

It's been referred to as both a "launch box" and a "core set". Normally they use those terms fairly exclusively.

As it includes dice & templates etc that aren't typically found in boxes like Leviathan or Dominion, I'm leaning slightly more towards it being a long term item like Age of Darkness. But there's always a chance of being surprised!

may well be like AT when launched, they may well do a cheaper box later

leopard wrote:
may well be like AT when launched, they may well do a cheaper box later

I feel like this is the bare minimum number of models you'd want in a starter box for Epic. Anything less and it'd almost be a joke, lol.

Perhaps could drop the Warhounds, but then the box would feel very slim unless they were replaced with something else.

That said, if it's limited, I may skip it and wait for a more permanent box as I don't particularly want 2x more Warhounds.

Yeah, I'm interested in the rules (not as much the minis, given I'm on a 40k binge more than HH), but if the box is a good deal I might just get one. Even two, if it's a very good deal.

But that will probably mean 100 euros or less, for me.

And yeah, the Warhounds are actually a deterrent for me buying it. Had they been *Blades (Fell, Blade, whatever) I'd have been all over it.

leopard wrote:
may well be like AT when launched, they may well do a cheaper box later

I think that if the launch box is a limited run, the 'cheaper boxes' will just be the 'fire support', 'rapid strike force', and what have you, and you just get the rulebook separately.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

leopard wrote:
may well be like AT when launched, they may well do a cheaper box later

I feel like this is the bare minimum number of models you'd want in a starter box for Epic. Anything less and it'd almost be a joke, lol.

Perhaps could drop the Warhounds, but then the box would feel very slim unless they were replaced with something else.

That said, if it's limited, I may skip it and wait for a more permanent box as I don't particularly want 2x more Warhounds.

The contents of the box are also a statement in how you can assemble your force. Whilst yes this can be two sides of a scrap, they’ve been clear the rules are such that it can also be a single force, representing three different elements of the multiple forces which comprised The Great Crusade.

That’s kind of cool if you ask me. Because whilst the lazy argument is “oh joy, more Maureen on Maureen violence”, the reality is armies will seemingly have little preventing them being a mix of whatever your taste and point limits allow. Which is lore accurate of course. Now I don’t for a second believe it will be an entirely free choice, but I suspect it may be akin to 2nd Ed, where Guard and Marines could be freely allied, but you couldn’t take say, a Space Marine Company Card and attach Imperial Guard detachment cards to that company. So the minimum presence for allied/mixed forces is likely Company Level.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

leopard wrote:
may well be like AT when launched, they may well do a cheaper box later

I feel like this is the bare minimum number of models you'd want in a starter box for Epic. Anything less and it'd almost be a joke, lol.

Perhaps could drop the Warhounds, but then the box would feel very slim unless they were replaced with something else.

That said, if it's limited, I may skip it and wait for a more permanent box as I don't particularly want 2x more Warhounds.

The contents of the box are also a statement in how you can assemble your force. Whilst yes this can be two sides of a scrap, they’ve been clear the rules are such that it can also be a single force, representing three different elements of the multiple forces which comprised The Great Crusade.

That’s kind of cool if you ask me. Because whilst the lazy argument is “oh joy, more Maureen on Maureen violence”, the reality is armies will seemingly have little preventing them being a mix of whatever your taste and point limits allow. Which is lore accurate of course. Now I don’t for a second believe it will be an entirely free choice, but I suspect it may be akin to 2nd Ed, where Guard and Marines could be freely allied, but you couldn’t take say, a Space Marine Company Card and attach Imperial Guard detachment cards to that company. So the minimum presence for allied/mixed forces is likely Company Level.

On 3rd Edition the Imperium is a big faction from which you can take detachments. Your Strategy Rating will go up if you choose to only field marines, but that's about it.

 Albertorius wrote:
Yeah, I'm interested in the rules (not as much the minis, given I'm on a 40k binge more than HH), but if the box is a good deal I might just get one. Even two, if it's a very good deal.

Well, if Epic: LI is mostly based on 2nd edition as they said, it will presumably have nothing in common with 3rd (or 4th) edition.

That means slower games, almost no morale is represented, etc... They will probably (I hope they do not go that way) speed up gameplay by having a extremely high lethality (removing minis by the bucket each round).

I have no hopes whatsoever regarding good rules. But at least Epic will be a commercial + readily available + popular game once again.

SU-152 wrote:
I have no hopes whatsoever regarding good rules. But at least Epic will be a commercial + readily available + popular game once again.

Remains to be seen...

If they make it expensive with mediocre rules then I have little hope in it becoming popular.

 gorgon wrote:

 Sherrypie wrote:

Billicus wrote:
Sure they do. Warcry broke new price ground when it launched. Pretty sure the original Titanicus launch set did too.

Grandmaster edition was pretty sensible for what it contained, as there was an absolute mountain of terrain sprues included in the box. You basically got a Warlord for free if you wanted everything in it. The problem with the set was that the units it contained were highly unrepresentative of what the game is and the sticker shock of 230 € to try things out was quite unwelcoming for many. This was later fixed with the superb deal that was the current starter box.

That 'mountain' of terrain sprues in the Grandmaster box was about 1/4 of the amount you'd need to fill a table properly and provide adequate cover. It was really a waste from a value standpoint. But it did get people buying more Civitas terrain, so mission accomplished for GW.

Those are different things, though. "The box had a lot of plastic at a discount" is a different statement than "the box gets you a full table". If you wanted everything, including the terrain and rules kits, it was of value as a starting point (at the time, buying the pieces individually would have been around 350 €). If anyone seriously sets their standards for a normal launch box at "has two fully playable forces and 4' x 4' table's worth of quality plastic terrain for a terrain heavy game" that's simply unrealistic.

AllSeeingSkink wrote:

SU-152 wrote:
I have no hopes whatsoever regarding good rules. But at least Epic will be a commercial + readily available + popular game once again.

Remains to be seen...

If they make it expensive with mediocre rules then I have little hope in it becoming popular.

I have always believed Epic as a concept and game should be a 'core' GW product. It's a wonderful way of representing the scale of warfare in 40k, with fantastical titans and vehicles destroying each other. There is a reason it came along so soon after the 28mm scale game originally, and could do so many things that the larger scale could not.

There was a miss-step with 3ed edition, where GW seemingly alienated much of the existing player base while not attracting new players. Then 4th edition wasn't given the opportunity to be anything other than a specialist game and niche system. But, I firmly believe those are not due to the concept itself and a solid set of rules, quality miniatures (that bit already seems assured) and reasonable prices, this could become a 'main' system again. I think it could even push AoS back behind it in 3-4 years time.

 Sherrypie wrote:
If anyone seriously sets their standards for a normal launch box at "has two fully playable forces and 4' x 4' table's worth of quality plastic terrain for a terrain heavy game" that's simply unrealistic.

the only unrealistic part is the table worth of terrain as the "standard" for non-GW things is to get 2 full forces and the a minimum of necessary terrain in the core/starter box with an additional terrain box (if you don't want to make your own) being the only thing you need in addition to play
at least if we talk about the price point as 50€ 2 player starter set is something different than a 200€ set

"the standard" is something different in that scale for games

If the combat rules are built around second ed, but with morale/disruption like Armageddon, it might be close to a perfect game.