Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

The points system rewards larger units. Now to see if the rules reward MSUs

On the other hand, the Kratos each have about 8 different weapon profiles with substantially varying ranges. Not great for fast play.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also for terminators at least, there isn’t enough in the box for a basic detachment.

Since the two leaks are now basically confirmed here are the links again:

Statlines
https://pastebin.com/GJfHMNzY

Subfaction rules
https://pastebin.com/BbJzuE06

And this bit thats missing from the pastebin

>Inviolate Armour: Iron Hands models with the Feel No Pain special rule benefit from its effects when they suffer a Wound from a weapon with the Light or Light AT trait, instead of just the Light trait. In addition, any Hits scored against an Iron Hands Vehicle or Super-heavy Vehicle issued with a First Fire Order worsen their AP by 1, to a minimum of 0, e.g., a weapon with an AP of -2 would become -1.

>The First Fire Order must still be in effect (i.e., it cannot have Overwatched or fired yet this round) for this rule to take effect. This does not affect the AP if Hits are allocated to Void Shields

Detachment cards confirmed...


...that'll go out of print rapidly

Only iffy “I don’t think we can rely on those entirely” bit of the pastebin is unit sizes, as the Terminators can go larger than the info shows.

But the rest we definitely need to be treating as kosher.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Only iffy “I don’t think we can rely on those entirely” bit of the pastebin is unit sizes, as the Terminators can go larger than the info shows.

But the rest we definitely need to be treating as kosher.

The pastebin only shows minimal sizes so thats as expected. The only detachments it shows as upgrades is if you can add a different detachment like Assault squads to Tactical squads

So for a *single* infantry unit stat line, I need to remember *eight* (almost ran out of fingers and had to start counting on toes) special rules.

And this is on top of what look to be Legion-specific special rules.

Mother of God.

Please to see a fair number of facing specific weapons, adding another level of consideration.

Pretty sure the Special Rules will become second nature quite swiftly.

I cannat wait, man, I cannat wait!

I'm liking how they discourage building for lots of activations by making full size detachments significantly cheaper to build.

Most of the traits & special rules are going to be very obvious to people who've played previous incarnations of warhammer games. Things like Bulky and Deep Strike have been used often enough before.

The points seen so far are quite a bit lower than the points/rules out there being used now.

So the armies in LI will be a fair amount larger.

Example: the Thunderhawk is 50 to 100 points less in LI than rules being used now.

So one thing is for sure, battles will have more models on the tables.

My concern here is that they have taken a game (in Epic Space Marine) for which one of it's greatest strength was it's streamling and speed of play, and easy to remember rules, and made it immediately less accessible.

Yes if I play tons I will remember the rules but how exactly are you meant to bring new players or casuals in? Or my mate who has two hours every fortnight to play when he is away from work, finally managed to get the kid to bed and wants a quick game?

This feels again like it is going to be another case of Necromunda, "for us, not for them" and casuals can wait outside. Completely going against the general trend of how game design within the industry is seeking to streamline, cognisant that gaming is competing with 100 other leisure activities and people have less free time than ever.

Do the people that design these games never play *anything* else from outside the circles that they operate in? Realise I may be going a bit OTT here, but I'd the rest of this game follows this trend into a granularity U-bend, you don't need to point out where those end up.

 TalonZahn wrote:
The points seen so far are quite a bit lower than the points/rules out there being used now.

So the armies in LI will be a fair amount larger.

Example: the Thunderhawk is 50 to 100 points less in LI than rules being used now.

So one thing is for sure, battles will have more models on the tables.

Doesn't that depend on game size though?

 TalonZahn wrote:
The points seen so far are quite a bit lower than the points/rules out there being used now.

By "used now" do you mean games like NetEpic?

If so are those typically played at 3000pts too?

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
The points seen so far are quite a bit lower than the points/rules out there being used now.

So the armies in LI will be a fair amount larger.

Example: the Thunderhawk is 50 to 100 points less in LI than rules being used now.

So one thing is for sure, battles will have more models on the tables.

Doesn't that depend on game size though?

If 300 points used to get me 1 Thunderhawk and now it gets me 2..... the size of the game would be irrelevant.

If you played at 2k and got X models, in the current Net rules, and play at 2k in LI...you now have 2X models.


[Edit] Yes xttz, at least my lists are 3k in NetEpic.

I am thrilled to see so many weapons options. It may not be as streamlined, but I think it makes it feel more warhammery with lots of guns. I just wish some of the weapon ranges were further.

 TalonZahn wrote:

 MajorWesJanson wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:
The points seen so far are quite a bit lower than the points/rules out there being used now.

So the armies in LI will be a fair amount larger.

Example: the Thunderhawk is 50 to 100 points less in LI than rules being used now.

So one thing is for sure, battles will have more models on the tables.

Doesn't that depend on game size though?

If 300 points used to get me 1 Thunderhawk and now it gets me 2..... the size of the game would be irrelevant.

If you played at 2k and got X models, in the current Net rules, and play at 2k in LI...you now have 2X models.


[Edit] Yes xttz, at least my lists are 3k in NetEpic.

And what if you play 1500?

Where does it say you have to play 2k?

 Pacific wrote:
So for a *single* infantry unit stat line, I need to remember *eight* (almost ran out of fingers and had to start counting on toes) special rules.

And this is on top of what look to be Legion-specific special rules.

Mother of God.

Well. This seems to be shaping up as exactly the opposite of what I want from an army-level game.

Ah well, not that it matters. I'll just keep doing my thing. Still nice to see models.

So legions can be mixed. So white scar used only with jinx guys, melee guys will be world eateis etc.

 vadersson wrote:
I am thrilled to see so many weapons options. It may not be as streamlined, but I think it makes it feel more warhammery with lots of guns. I just wish some of the weapon ranges were further.

About the streamlining.. sure there is a joke in the Porsche of wargaming companies making a game that resembles the aerodynamic profile of my long-dead great uncle's 1970 Trabant.

I'm guessing you can play at what ever level you wish. 50 or 50000.

It still remains that if you are currently playing with NetEpic style rules, you will have more models in the LI rules due to the cheaper units in LI.

I'm all for more stuff on the table. Just means more stuff to blow up.

Only if you fall for misconception you have to keep point size of game same.

Gw marketing team loves those who think so

tneva82 wrote:
Only if you fall for misconception you have to keep point size of game same.

Gw marketing team loves those who think so

Of course you can play at whatever point size you want but as GW already said 3000 points is recommended and it seems the same is the case for NetEpic so I don't see a problem with comparing them?
And the comparison is that in both games at their recommended points you will have more models in LI

tneva82 wrote:
Only if you fall for misconception you have to keep point size of game same.

Gw marketing team loves those who think so

Not sure how I can be more clear.....

If 1 system says a Kratos is 100 points and another says it's 50...

You can take 2 (instead of 1) at 1500 points, 3000 points, or 10000 points.

 Pacific wrote:
My concern here is that they have taken a game (in Epic Space Marine) for which one of it's greatest strength was it's streamling and speed of play, and easy to remember rules, and made it immediately less accessible.

Yes if I play tons I will remember the rules but how exactly are you meant to bring new players or casuals in? Or my mate who has two hours every fortnight to play when he is away from work, finally managed to get the kid to bed and wants a quick game?

This feels again like it is going to be another case of Necromunda, "for us, not for them" and casuals can wait outside. Completely going against the general trend of how game design within the industry is seeking to streamline, cognisant that gaming is competing with 100 other leisure activities and people have less free time than ever.

Do the people that design these games never play *anything* else from outside the circles that they operate in? Realise I may be going a bit OTT here, but I'd the rest of this game follows this trend into a granularity U-bend, you don't need to point out where those end up.

All good points, but I think it's very clear that this game's intended audience are Heresy heads and those with some kind of attachment or familiarity with past Epic games. If they wanted LI to be the next big thing, it'd likely be a little more streamlined and include a more diversified menu of 40K factions that general audiences might be more familiar with/attracted to.

Anyway, it had to be on their minds that the last time they majorly streamlined an Epic game, it bombed. And that when they revamped the system to include more granularity, it was better received.

 Albertorius wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
So for a *single* infantry unit stat line, I need to remember *eight* (almost ran out of fingers and had to start counting on toes) special rules.

And this is on top of what look to be Legion-specific special rules.

Mother of God.

Well. This seems to be shaping up as exactly the opposite of what I want from an army-level game.

Ah well, not that it matters. I'll just keep doing my thing. Still nice to see models.

I knew it was going to be like this more than month ago, just when they made the joke about the "CAF".

For this high quantity of minis, 3rd is the way to go IMHO.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:

 Pacific wrote:
My concern here is that they have taken a game (in Epic Space Marine) for which one of it's greatest strength was it's streamling and speed of play, and easy to remember rules, and made it immediately less accessible.

Yes if I play tons I will remember the rules but how exactly are you meant to bring new players or casuals in? Or my mate who has two hours every fortnight to play when he is away from work, finally managed to get the kid to bed and wants a quick game?

This feels again like it is going to be another case of Necromunda, "for us, not for them" and casuals can wait outside. Completely going against the general trend of how game design within the industry is seeking to streamline, cognisant that gaming is competing with 100 other leisure activities and people have less free time than ever.

Do the people that design these games never play *anything* else from outside the circles that they operate in? Realise I may be going a bit OTT here, but I'd the rest of this game follows this trend into a granularity U-bend, you don't need to point out where those end up.

All good points, but I think it's very clear that this game's intended audience are Heresy heads and those with some kind of attachment or familiarity with past Epic games. If they wanted LI to be the next big thing, it'd likely be a little more streamlined and include a more diversified menu of 40K factions that general audiences might be more familiar with/attracted to.

Anyway, it had to be on their minds that the last time they majorly streamlined an Epic game, it bombed. And that when they revamped the system to include more granularity, it was better received.

Exactly this.

It seems more like a reboot than a new edition, in order to please nostalgics.

It is on the opposite side of the spectrum compared with 3rd edition (the streamlined edition that "bombed").

So that's the two turret weapons to choose from, plus a coax autocannon, plus two hull heavy bolters, plus a pair of sponsons, with two options to choose from again.
...That much I can see on the model so fair enough. But where do the (bottom) two "Kratos" weapons fit in? Substitutions for the hull mount heavy bolters? only option I can see that fits with either the LI or HH model but that makes for a rather confusing list, ordered almost at random like that.

Maybe I'm just being slow, but geesh.

 xttz wrote:
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2023/08/02/legions-imperialis-a-closer-look-at-the-legiones-astartes/

Can someone explain the terminator card? They show twenty terminators in a box, with 4 boxes underneath it. In 2nd each silhouette represented 1 unit. I assume this is now one silhouette per model, so twenty silhouettes is 4 stands of five, (I think there is a little smidge extra separation by fives if you look closely) why are there 4 more cards under the main card with the silhouettes? Why not just make the card with 4 silhouettes and be done?

Yes you can add up to 4 stands, but that makes it look like you could add 4x20 models not 4x5 models. Just looks like a poorly thought out layout to me.

Who knows!


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bolognesus wrote:

So that's the two turret weapons to choose from, plus a coax autocannon, plus two hull heavy bolters, plus a pair of sponsons, with two options to choose from again.
...That much I can see on the model so fair enough. But where do the (bottom) two "Kratos" weapons fit in? Substitutions for the hull mount heavy bolters? only option I can see that fits with either the LI or HH model but that makes for a rather confusing list, ordered almost at random like that.

Maybe I'm just being slow, but geesh.

Yeah, essentially the “deck” guns, mounted on the hull.

Wondering if Point Defence will be guns you shoot during combats.

"Detachment cards"

Well...good luck to those that are interested in these new rules. Cards will be on sale for less than 7 minutes on pre-order day, then on ebay for €50+ come lunch time.

I had a funny feeling that Legions was going to ape new-necromundas release.

Well, I like the minis anyway. I'm not going to keep complaining its just clear the game is not made for me. But thankfully Epic minis work for all versions of the game. I'll be happy as long as my FLGS can get in my 10+ boxes of rhinos!

So... you shoot with 4 different weapons with each of the tanks, in detachments of up to six, that can have different loadouts?

That sounds streamlined as all feth.

 RexHavoc wrote:
Cards will be on sale for less than 7 minutes on pre-order day, then on ebay for €50+ come lunch time.

So? The same info is printed in the rulebook too. They're optional.

I'm expecting someone to make an app for list building pretty quickly too.