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2023/04/28 00:40:00
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Roddenberry created ST, Roddenberry created STTAS. The original cast (major actors) all appeared in STTAS, with the exception of Walter Koenig, but even he wrote one of the episodes. Compared to the other spin-offs, it has considerable integrity.
STTAS also had some great talent working as writiers, among them, Larry Niven, who rewrote his short story "The Soft Weapon" into "The Slaver Weapon", adding two excellent (IMHO) alien races into the ST universe from Known Space, the Kzinti and the Slavers.
There was some silliness, but compared to the abuses of STTNG's holodeck, and Data-the-emotional-emotionless-android, they were mild indeed.
How is Discovery, Voyager, or even Picard more "real ST" than this?
Okay, to me, this ^^ is the end of the matter, BUT I REALIZE ONLY TO ME, and I'd really like to hear opposing viewpoints.
Again, all of the above IMHO only.
Love to hear your thoughts.
Automatically Appended Next Post: LOL! I just saw the post comparing the various versions of ST, and even Orville. Didn't even see it before I wrote this one. Synchronicity indeed!
Mods feel free to delete this if it seems to be a rip off.
Strange, I seldom write ST posts on any forum. Maybe I subconsciously glanced at it, and it triggered the thought? Who knows. The human mind is a strange thing. Or the Vulcan mind, Kzinti mind, Slaver mind...
This message was edited 5 times. Last update was at 2023/04/28 00:58:07
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/04/28 03:12:51
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2023/04/28 03:57:59
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
TAS was removed from canon as some changes were reversed during the movies (no Holodeck on the Enterprise Refit) but according to Paramount it is canon (at least it was said to be canon after the DVD release)
Harry, bring this ring to Narnia or the Sith will take the Enterprise
2023/04/28 12:24:57
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
To be fair both TOS and TAS were never really built nor designed to be anything more than Alien of the Week type shows. Heck most of the episodes can be shown totally out of order and you would never actually notice this.
There are elements that run through them and structures and such that set the lore in foundation, but huge chunks are very sketchy (eg just how many God's did they meet!).
Honestly I'd argue that Lower Decks is perhaps the only series of Trek that really actually tries to bring TOS into the more serious story structure and lore built modern style of Trek.
I think the issue is that you can hit a point where you accept that "most" of it is canon enough that it could fit but you have to kind of exclude some bits; or accept that they were miss-interpretations or such.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I think it had something to do with money. Same reason why the original Technical Manual was decanonized.
And bringing in the Known Space aliens annoys the hell out of my OCD.
Really? I don't get that it about the OCD. Please expand..
As to the Technical Mannual, that brings back nerdy-goodness-vibes! I wish it was still in print.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
LordofHats wrote: To be fair, Star Trek V is essentially so bad it should be removed from canon.
Yeah. ST: Kirk Kills God! [shudders]
Automatically Appended Next Post:
kodos wrote: TAS was removed from canon as some changes were reversed during the movies (no Holodeck on the Enterprise Refit) but according to Paramount it is canon (at least it was said to be canon after the DVD release)
Nothing like corporations making decisions about art and entertainment.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Overread wrote: To be fair both TOS and TAS were never really built nor designed to be anything more than Alien of the Week type shows. Heck most of the episodes can be shown totally out of order and you would never actually notice this.
True, but OTOH, doesn't this really apply to all of ST before DS9? That was really the only one that had a story arc that went through its entire run, and much of that, if what I understand is correct, was heavily "borrowed" from Babylon-5?
Really, whether you are talking about Star Trek, Bonanza or The Brady Bunch, that was pretty much all of TV up until the 90s, with the notable exception of soap operas. We run into a problem, we recoil from it, we figure out a way to beat it, life remains markedly unchanged, all in 30 minutes to an hour.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2023/05/01 00:05:24
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/05/01 04:04:12
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
I don’t like it when elements from one franchise “universe” appear in another, especially when the two settings are very different. Would you not have a problem with it if Optimus Prime guest starred on an episode of The Mandalorian?
I love the concept of ST-TOS in theory. Original creators and cast reunited to take advantage of stuff you can do in animation but could not in live action, award winning writers, bigger canvas etc and...
It's horrible.
Horrible, awful, terrible, unwatchable.
And I say this as a fan of TOS.
Reused animation, limited motion, terrible music, terrible framing and direction, just plain awful.
And I say this as a fan Transformers and GI Joe.
I would love for someone to keep the voice acting and scripts and reanimate it as something decent. Even if they kept the Filmation style. But the show as is...
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I love the concept of ST-TOS in theory. Original creators and cast reunited to take advantage of stuff you can do in animation but could not in live action, award winning writers, bigger canvas etc and...
It's horrible.
Horrible, awful, terrible, unwatchable.
And I say this as a fan of TOS.
You have to remember it was done as a Saturday morning cartoon. That said, I think it was a step above most of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: I don’t like it when elements from one franchise “universe” appear in another, especially when the two settings are very different. Would you not have a problem with it if Optimus Prime guest starred on an episode of The Mandalorian?
Yes... but not the same thing, IMHO. Some works just blend better than others. Niven's Kzinti have made it into the ST universe at least on the fan level.
Not quite the same as the Ewoks appearing in a sequel to Asimov's Foundation, IMHO.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2023/05/03 06:19:30
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/05/03 06:16:32
Subject: Re:What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Talking about the Kzinti: they appear in the Star Fleet Battles universe (an offshoot of the Trek universe created for a board game, with only the original series, the animated series, and a handful of novels to draw material from and heavily expanded upon), and I've heard that they might have featured in season 5 of Enterprise had it not been canceled.
My armies (re-counted and updated on 11/7/24, including modeled wargear options):
Dark Angels: ~16000 Astra Militarum: ~1200 | Imperial Knights: ~2300 | Leagues of Votann: ~1300 | Tyranids: ~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: ~5000 | Kruleboyz: ~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: ~700
Check out my P&M Blogs: ZergSmasher's P&M Blog | Imperial Knights blog | Board Games blog | Total models painted in 2024: 40 | Total models painted in 2025: 25 | Current main painting project: Tomb Kings
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The Grotsnik Corp Bump Feelerer 9,000. It only looks like several bricks crudely gaffer taped to a cricket bat.
Grotsnik Corp. Sorry, No Refunds.
2023/05/03 06:43:45
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I love the concept of ST-TOS in theory. Original creators and cast reunited to take advantage of stuff you can do in animation but could not in live action, award winning writers, bigger canvas etc and...
It's horrible.
Horrible, awful, terrible, unwatchable.
And I say this as a fan of TOS.
Reused animation, limited motion, terrible music, terrible framing and direction, just plain awful.
And I say this as a fan Transformers and GI Joe.
I would love for someone to keep the voice acting and scripts and reanimate it as something decent. Even if they kept the Filmation style. But the show as is...
I’m now hoping that someone at CBS reads this (or has the same idea), as a remastering with new music and animation seems eminently achievable and that would be cool to watch. Heck, just hand it over to the Lower Decks team, they seem to know what Trek is really about…
Zed wrote: *All statements reflect my opinion at this moment. if some sort of pretty new model gets released (or if I change my mind at random) I reserve the right to jump on any bandwagon at will.
2023/05/03 15:15:27
Subject: Re:What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
ZergSmasher wrote: Talking about the Kzinti:.. ...I've heard that they might have featured in season 5 of Enterprise had it not been canceled.
I never heard that! That's neat, and a really cool addition, if they could have pulled it off? Since Kzinti are 8'+ tall, I imagine this would have been CGI, like the Enterprise version of the Gorn?
Very cool to speculate on, certainly.
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/05/03 15:20:35
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Kid_Kyoto wrote: I love the concept of ST-TOS in theory. Original creators and cast reunited to take advantage of stuff you can do in animation but could not in live action, award winning writers, bigger canvas etc and...
It's horrible.
Horrible, awful, terrible, unwatchable.
And I say this as a fan of TOS.
Reused animation, limited motion, terrible music, terrible framing and direction, just plain awful.
And I say this as a fan Transformers and GI Joe.
I would love for someone to keep the voice acting and scripts and reanimate it as something decent. Even if they kept the Filmation style. But the show as is...
I’m now hoping that someone at CBS reads this (or has the same idea), as a remastering with new music and animation seems eminently achievable and that would be cool to watch. Heck, just hand it over to the Lower Decks team, they seem to know what Trek is really about…
It’s a sound idea, but for licensing. Any original cast member (or sadly, their estate) is going to want their pound of flesh and rightfully so. And given how very long ago it was made, contracts may be lost, invalid, dodgy by current laws etc.
Fed up of Scalpers? But still want your Exclusives? Why not join us?
I thought they quietly rebooted the also Tina’s the Caitians or one of the other felinoid races who show up in the movies or early TNG.
And why go through all the rights hassles of getting actual book-accurate Kzinti? What would the warlike Kzinti bring in that the Klingons didn’t already provide?
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2023/05/03 15:39:27
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
Haven’t had a chance to watch the video, but they do mention that Kzinti women were all engineered to be non-sapient, right? So unless you want your Star Trek with a heavier dose of Handmaiden’s Tale, that might be an issue.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Haven’t had a chance to watch the video, but they do mention that Kzinti women were all engineered to be non-sapient, right? So unless you want your Star Trek with a heavier dose of Handmaiden’s Tale, that might be an issue.
Which I thought was kinda weird. I think that appears in Ringworld Engineers.
Meh. An imperfection.
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/05/03 20:42:11
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Haven’t had a chance to watch the video, but they do mention that Kzinti women were all engineered to be non-sapient, right? So unless you want your Star Trek with a heavier dose of Handmaiden’s Tale, that might be an issue.
Yeah thats part of the Ringworld universe.
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Which is where I want them to stay. In Niven’s Known Space, where they belong.
I have only ever seen that one episode where the crew meet the Kzin and it seemed more of a crossover than a Trek episode - very strange
I AM A MARINE PLAYER
"Unimaginably ancient xenos artefact somewhere on the planet, hive fleet poised above our heads, hidden 'stealer broods making an early start....and now a bloody Chaos cult crawling out of the woodwork just in case we were bored. Welcome to my world, Ciaphas."
Inquisitor Amberley Vail, Ordo Xenos
"I will admit that some Primachs like Russ or Horus could have a chance against an unarmed 12 year old novice but, a full Battle Sister??!! One to one? In close combat? Perhaps three Primarchs fighting together... but just one Primarch?" da001
AduroT wrote: As that video noted, they’re already here. There was one who joined Star Fleet and appeared on Lower Decks, and Picard name dropped them.
Huh. Very cool, IMHO! Got a cite or a link? Thanks.
First, all means to conciliate; failing that, all means to crush.
-Cardinal Richelieu
2023/05/03 22:50:57
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
AduroT wrote: As that video noted, they’re already here. There was one who joined Star Fleet and appeared on Lower Decks, and Picard name dropped them.
Huh. Very cool, IMHO! Got a cite or a link? Thanks.
'It is a source of constant consternation that my opponents cannot correlate their innate inferiority with their inevitable defeat. It would seem that stupidity is as eternal as war.'
- Nemesor Zahndrekh of the Sautekh Dynasty Overlord of the Crownworld of Gidrim
2023/05/03 23:08:59
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
The lower decks one is a shame, but a Picard name drop isn’t any worse than “cetacean ops” jokes, anime references or all of the Buckaroo Bonzai Easter eggs in every Okudagram.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Which is where I want them to stay. In Niven’s Known Space, where they belong.
So it's confirmed that the Niven's Kzin and the Star Trek Kzinti are 100% the same race, same population, same history, etc? Instead of one being a 'tribute' (coughcopy-pastecough) that could harbor significant differences below the surface?
CHAOS! PANIC! DISORDER!
My job here is done.
2023/05/04 11:08:26
Subject: What's the substance of the argument that "Star Trek The Animated Series" Isn't Real Trek?
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Which is where I want them to stay. In Niven’s Known Space, where they belong.
So it's confirmed that the Niven's Kzin and the Star Trek Kzinti are 100% the same race, same population, same history, etc? Instead of one being a 'tribute' (coughcopy-pastecough) that could harbor significant differences below the surface?
The Kzinti STTAS episode “the slaver weapon” was written by Larry Niven, and adapted from his own Known Space short story “The Soft Weapon”.
~16000 Astra Militarum: 
~1200 | Imperial Knights: 
~2300 | Leagues of Votann: 
~1300 | Tyranids: 
~3400 | Stormcast Eternals: 
~5000 | Kruleboyz: 
~3500 | Lumineth Realm-Lords: 
~700
