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As a general rule, really really dont get your hopes up before an Ork codex.
GW have never done us any favors, if we are lucky there will sort of be a list in there, some where, that can compete.
But hoping for stuf is just setting up for disapointment

75-80% of ork data sheets are trash so they have to come up with some very good rules to make anything other than the "Goff" pressure/trukk list work
and I dont think they are ready to admidt mistakes so

Fortunately the current wave of codexes are basically a tweaked index, and our index is pretty alright. Hell, we're towards the higher end as far as competitive factions go.

And with our units there's obviously some outliers in terms of great units and bad units, but generally speaking I'd say most of our units are usable or have a niche. The only things I can think of that really don't measure up are the planes (because current flyer mechanics are awful) and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).

The main reason that most lists are Goff pressure/trukk spam is that the detachment we started with is a melee one. We have a good amount of units that have decent shooting and just need a little nudge to be really good.

This is true for a lot of factions that have been shoehorned into one playstyle because we only got one detachment each at launch. Unless all 9f the detachments we get given are beyond awful then there's going to be build diversity after the codex drops.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).

Its not a question. Theres no mystery or ambiguity. They're a shooting unit, specialized against vehicles/monsters, that gets a boost if they can get within 12" of a target.

ccs wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).

Its not a question. Theres no mystery or ambiguity. They're a shooting unit, specialized against vehicles/monsters, that gets a boost if they can get within 12" of a target.

I get that they're supposed to be an anti-vehicle/monster shooting unit, but 3 rokkits with a slight boost against those targets doesn't really tick that box. Rokkit pistols are awful. The tankhammer isnt terrible but you only get one and you have to take it in place of a Rokkit launcha.

If you want to use the Tankhammer then you're not going to be able to shoot the rokkits. If you want to shoot the rokkits, then you're not using the Tankhammer. And you have to protect 6 T5 5+ wounds in the process.

At the moment Tankbustas are more of a bomb Squig delivery system, and they're not even the best for doing that because Kommandos and Squighogs exist.

I fully get what you mean, but they're not an effective shooting unit and they're not an effective anti-vehicle/monster unit. They cost too much for what they currently do, they don't do a lot of what they're supposed to do, and they're way too frail for what they're offering currently.

Oh geez, they're locked to 5-man?

Who thought that was anything even approaching a good idea?

 Afrodactyl wrote:

ccs wrote:

 Afrodactyl wrote:
and Tankbustas (because you can only take 5 with a fixed loadout that doesn't know whether it wants to shoot or charge and doesn't have the oomph or volume to really do either).

Its not a question. Theres no mystery or ambiguity. They're a shooting unit, specialized against vehicles/monsters, that gets a boost if they can get within 12" of a target.

I get that they're supposed to be an anti-vehicle/monster shooting unit, but 3 rokkits with a slight boost against those targets doesn't really tick that box. Rokkit pistols are awful. The tankhammer isnt terrible but you only get one and you have to take it in place of a Rokkit launcha.

Well, this is about as effective as Ork AT shooting gets.
The rokkit pistol isn't awful it's just a range 12" rokkit.
On the Tank Hammer.... No, you do not take it in place of a rokkit. The squad comes hard set at 3 rokkits, 1 TL rokkit pistol, and 1 tank hammer.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
If you want to use the Tankhammer then you're not going to be able to shoot the rokkits. If you want to shoot the rokkits, then you're not using the Tankhammer. And you have to protect 6 T5 5+ wounds in the process.

Again, no.
The tank hammer is a last ditch weapon of opportunity.
Assuming you are in the position to make use of the tank hammer in the 1st place? Then you're at 12" or less from the target. Wich means you'll have 1) thrown a bomb squig (unless you're out or saving it for something better - but why save it as the squads going to die momentarily), 2) fired the rokkit pistol (because range 12"), and fired a salvo of 3x d3 rokkits. You then roll well on the charge & pick off the remaining wounds in CC.
If the targets still alive? Then you won't likely be worrying about firing those rokkits in future rounds - because the squad will soon be dead.

But how this is most likely to work out is that you've taken casualties while coming into that magic 12" or less range. The 1st wound kills the tank hammer, the next kills off the rokkit pistol, & then the rokkits (starting with the Boss). The hammer & pistol are just ablative wounds for the rokkits.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
At the moment Tankbustas are more of a bomb Squig delivery system, and they're not even the best for doing that because Kommandos and Squighogs exist.

They don't have to be the best. Just another.

 Afrodactyl wrote:
I fully get what you mean, but they're not an effective shooting unit and they're not an effective anti-vehicle/monster unit. They cost too much for what they currently do, they don't do a lot of what they're supposed to do, and they're way too frail for what they're offering currently.

is 12pts/ork too expensive? "eh".
You just have to figure out how to make them work for you.
Me? Whatever the faction, I like shooty armies. I could get my use out of these guys. They might not be my 1st pick shooty foot Ork wise, but I wouldn't auto-dismiss them ether.

Rokkit Pistol is also 1 shot, S7 (though mitigated by TL), AP-1, and Dd3 instead of flat 3.
And considering what the squad used to be, namely all Rokkits all the time... Yeah, you're losing out on a Rokkit for a Tankhammer.

Ablative wounds can be valuable, but on a 5-man squad with Orky shooting, you really don't NEED them. So the fact that you're forced to take them... It's rough.

Against a pretty standard T10 3+ Vehicle or Monster model, a Tankbusta squad does the following from 12":

1 Pistol shot
1/2 hits
3/8 wounds
3/16 failed saves
3/8 or .38 damage

6 Rokkit shots (average)
3 hits
3/2 wounds
1 failed save
3 damage

If they charge a Vehicle then, you'd add...

8 CCW attacks
40/6 or 20/3 hits
20/9 wounds
20/27 failed saves
20/27 or .74 damage

2 Tankhammer attacks
10/6 or 5/3 hits
5/6 wounds, which are Devastating
10/6, 5/3, or 1.67 damage

Total, assuming your 6 T5 5+ Wounds make it to 12" and charge unscathed...
5.79 damage

So you can do a little more than half-kill a Rhino worth 75 points, with your 110 point squad.

Also, it's not 12 points per Ork, it's 22.

ccs wrote:


They don't have to be the best. Just another.

The issue with that is that our shooting is generally so lackluster that we can't afford to take a shooting unit that's only alright at shooting, unless it also does something else really well.

Mek guns are great ranged AT, they're decently tough and they screen your backline.

Lootas are pretty good as a ranged all-rounder, especially when shooting at things on objectives, but can also hold your backline.

Flash Gitz generally delete whatever they're pointed at.

Deffkoptas don't have great ranged output but they're really fast and bully stuff off of objectives and harass backlines.

Killa Kanz and Grot Tanks are just more mobile Mek Gunz, and Kanz have decent melee punch too.

Shokkjump Dragsta shoots at characters and picks off wounded vehicles. Also good for jumping onto objectives and backlines.

Even the Stompa has lots of shots meme potential.

Tankbustas just kinda suck at the moment and need fixing. They got done dirty, and I'm really hoping they get new rules and a new kit when the codex drops that does them justice. Also, Rokkit pistols being dumb and awful is a hill I am willing to die on

 JNAProductions wrote:
Rokkit Pistol is also 1 shot, S7 (though mitigated by TL), AP-1, and Dd3 instead of flat 3.
And considering what the squad used to be, namely all Rokkits all the time... Yeah, you're losing out on a Rokkit for a Tankhammer.

Ablative wounds can be valuable, but on a 5-man squad with Orky shooting, you really don't NEED them. So the fact that you're forced to take them... It's rough.

Against a pretty standard T10 3+ Vehicle or Monster model, a Tankbusta squad does the following from 12":

1 Pistol shot
1/2 hits
3/8 wounds
3/16 failed saves
3/8 or .38 damage

6 Rokkit shots (average)
3 hits
3/2 wounds
1 failed save
3 damage

If they charge a Vehicle then, you'd add...

8 CCW attacks
40/6 or 20/3 hits
20/9 wounds
20/27 failed saves
20/27 or .74 damage

2 Tankhammer attacks
10/6 or 5/3 hits
5/6 wounds, which are Devastating
10/6, 5/3, or 1.67 damage

Total, assuming your 6 T5 5+ Wounds make it to 12" and charge unscathed...
5.79 damage

So you can do a little more than half-kill a Rhino worth 75 points, with your 110 point squad.

Also, it's not 12 points per Ork, it's 22.

If you factor in the bomb squig and sustained hits in CC, then during waagh they deal about 10 Damage to any 3+ save vehicle. So while they still are squishy as hell, they might work with a points reduction to 90 or 95 points, if you find some space in one of your trucks, e.g. accompanying a small nobs or meganobs squad. If you need to buy a separate transport just for them, they are probably not worth it.

Bossdoc wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:
Rokkit Pistol is also 1 shot, S7 (though mitigated by TL), AP-1, and Dd3 instead of flat 3.
And considering what the squad used to be, namely all Rokkits all the time... Yeah, you're losing out on a Rokkit for a Tankhammer.

Ablative wounds can be valuable, but on a 5-man squad with Orky shooting, you really don't NEED them. So the fact that you're forced to take them... It's rough.

Against a pretty standard T10 3+ Vehicle or Monster model, a Tankbusta squad does the following from 12":

1 Pistol shot
1/2 hits
3/8 wounds
3/16 failed saves
3/8 or .38 damage

6 Rokkit shots (average)
3 hits
3/2 wounds
1 failed save
3 damage

If they charge a Vehicle then, you'd add...

8 CCW attacks
40/6 or 20/3 hits
20/9 wounds
20/27 failed saves
20/27 or .74 damage

2 Tankhammer attacks
10/6 or 5/3 hits
5/6 wounds, which are Devastating
10/6, 5/3, or 1.67 damage

Total, assuming your 6 T5 5+ Wounds make it to 12" and charge unscathed...
5.79 damage

So you can do a little more than half-kill a Rhino worth 75 points, with your 110 point squad.

Also, it's not 12 points per Ork, it's 22.

If you factor in the bomb squig and sustained hits in CC, then during waagh they deal about 10 Damage to any 3+ save vehicle. So while they still are squishy as hell, they might work with a points reduction to 90 or 95 points, if you find some space in one of your trucks, e.g. accompanying a small nobs or meganobs squad. If you need to buy a separate transport just for them, they are probably not worth it.

Bomb Squig adds 5/3 damage, or 1.33.
Sustained Hits makes them hit 1/1 attacks, for...

8 CCW attacks
8/3 hit
8/9 failed saves, or .89 damage

2 Hammer attacks
2 Hammer hits
1 Hammer wound, Devastating
2 damage

7.6 damage. Not 10.

Oh, WAAGH! adds an attack, right.
That'd add another point of damage from the Hammer, and 4 CCW swings, for 12/12/4/1.33.

So 9.04.

Bomb squig is 5/6 x 2 = 1,66 D, So 9,37 D average during Waagh.

Comparison to 5 Flash Gitz (generally considered one of the best units in our index):

Ideal Situation (Closest target, stationary, ammo runt, CC during Waaagh) against T10-11 Vehicle, that's

20 Shots, 10 hits + 3,33 lethal hits. The 10 hits deal another 3,33 wounds for a total of 6,66 wounds at -1 D2, which equals 6,66 D.
Then 25 Attacks CC hitting on 3s with sustained, wounding on 5 with -1 (25 x 5/6 x 1/3 x 1/2) is another 3,47 D.
So our best shooting unit deals roughly 1 more D against this targets and significantly less against T12 vehicles like knights (5 in shooting, 1,73 in CC). Flash gitz are good against are larger spread of targets, which makes them better allrounders, and they are slightly tougher with 4+ and 10 wounds and could be buffed by Badrukk, but there are situations where Tankbustas might find a place in lists if their points get reduced to flash gitz level.

As an addendum, 2 Kustoms Kannons for 110 points deal 4,08 D to knight equivalent (5,44 to rhino equivalent), are again somewhat more durable than Bustas, but limited in Los due to abysmal movement, which offsets their better range.

I i would say i would like variety. A better internal balance so i don't need extra rules to bring most of our sheets. It feels bad because this also makes some units on untouchable for nerfs with out crippling our way of play.

Honestly it's not looking good for the dex.

Forceride wrote:
I i would say i would like variety. A better internal balance so i don't need extra rules to bring most of our sheets. It feels bad because this also makes some units on untouchable for nerfs with out crippling our way of play.

Honestly it's not looking good for the dex.

OTOH now that GW already broke from initial saying of datasheets remaining mostly as they were and datasheets AREN'T holy "can't alter things" it's quite feasible idea that comes the ork codex datasheets gets upgraded.

But then again with GW everything's never usable so that players keep buying new units.

Yeah, we only need tweaks to some sheets, it's possible. Mostly what we need is more shots at max range or some price drops.

But i am not gonna put my hands on the fire for GW.

Tanbustas is fairly easy to aproach with points.

Flashgitz? Not so much if they receive extra buffs through detach, i can see them being busted, if they try to nerf them, they ruin the sheet for every other detach...

I can see tankbustas reinvisioned with codex but I’m really only expecting 2 character updates and a small release this time. Zagstruk and badrukk is my guess.. I’d say weirdboy, banner nob, and kff bigmek are the most important but they don’t seem to want to touch those.

What we definitely need is an option for another build than just “trukk company”.

Speedfreaks or walkers or something.

Tankbustas are damned. Their pistol-hammer-and-3-rokkits fix setting makes them useless with almost any kind of the rules = new model release is essential to fix them. And regardless of this new model - what are tankbustas? Just some infantry you cen put in the trukk. New tankbustas can hardly change the way we play…

Tankbustas do need a revision of their ruleset beyond just overpriced "boyz with rokkits", ideally in a way that synergizes with either a WAAAGH! being called or being joined by one of our HQ's, because historically they've just been loaded up in transports and let loose/hope for the best. Would be more interesting if they gave them a bit more utility.

 Grimskul wrote:
Tankbustas do need a revision of their ruleset beyond just overpriced "boyz with rokkits", ideally in a way that synergizes with either a WAAAGH! being called or being joined by one of our HQ's, because historically they've just been loaded up in transports and let loose/hope for the best. Would be more interesting if they gave them a bit more utility.

I think a rules change will be along with a new plastic kit. Would be cool to have tankhammer, rokkit, dual rokkit, or KMB as 4 different options to loadout a squad.

... or actually have tankhammer and pistols be better than rokkits to make up for their short range, instead of worse.

Interesting decisions and multiple possible functions are way better than a super-focused unit in the long run. As long as they are just "boyz with rokkits" they will never be anything but an undercosted unit you spam as much as possible or overpriced garbage.

 Jidmah wrote:
... or actually have tankhammer and pistols be better than rokkits to make up for their short range, instead of worse.

Interesting decisions and multiple possible functions are way better than a super-focused unit in the long run. As long as they are just "boyz with rokkits" they will never be anything but an undercosted unit you spam as much as possible or overpriced garbage.

Agreed. Right now something that Orks lack is anything that really either debuffs the enemy (Kustom Boosta Blasta is the only one that comes to mind, and that's assuming it hits the opponent), it would be cool if Tankbustas made it so any other Ork units that shot at the same target as the Tankbustas did got an additional AP due to their speshul rokkits peeling off the armour and exposing their weak points, or debuffing enemy vehicle/monster movement from the cascade of rokkits before fired at them.

Honestly I like the way nobz, flash gitz and beast snaggas play&feel right now and would love to have more infantry play as they do. Damage doesn't bounce off them, they constantly lose models when shot at, but they remain dangerous until severely decimated.

Due to their short range, tank bustas need to get there as well, and I feel like tankhammers and rokkit pistols could be the key to that - imagine tank hammers being dangerous enough that you wouldn't want to pull them first as casualties and forcing opponents to actually wipe the mob to remove their threat.

At least their fluff talks about tank bustas being heavily armored with parts of looted vehicles, so that might also be a niche for them.

Tankbustas having a 3+ save would be quite cool; them just strapping pieces of tanks to themselves as a way to mimic mega armour.

Also, if they had a Tankbusta Bombs ability that was a slightly weaker Tankhammer (one less attack or something, replacing their "close combat weapon" against V/M units) then they could be a unit that advances on tanks and shoots on the way in to then finish off with Tankbusta Bombs, or gives up a few rokkits in order to hit a lot harder in melee.

Then them being a "confused" unit would make sense as they could do both the shooting role and the melee role pretty effectively.

 Jidmah wrote:
Honestly I like the way nobz, flash gitz and beast snaggas play&feel right now and would love to have more infantry play as they do. Damage doesn't bounce off them, they constantly lose models when shot at, but they remain dangerous until severely decimated.

Due to their short range, tank bustas need to get there as well, and I feel like tankhammers and rokkit pistols could be the key to that - imagine tank hammers being dangerous enough that you wouldn't want to pull them first as casualties and forcing opponents to actually wipe the mob to remove their threat.

At least their fluff talks about tank bustas being heavily armored with parts of looted vehicles, so that might also be a niche for them.

Now I'm imagining the Urukhai Berserker with the torch from Helm's Deep that went and blew up the wall. Just an Orky armoured version and instead of a torch he's got a tankbusta bomb

Would 100% be fine with a scary suicide unit packed to the gills with bombs and tankhammers.

Since the release of Beast Snaggas I wondered why we didn't get an actual specialized beast hunting unit for them or if a new kit of tankbustaz could give us a double duty kit with some harpoons, strings and webs to slow down and trap tanks and monsters. Throw in some marten squigs that nomnom the engine.

What I really miss in orky army for a long long time is … more dakka.

Seriously

Except Dakkajet, Mega Shoota and Gigashoota - there is nothing. Rokkits are great! Makes a great Bang! But there is no real dakka. Neither in in the form that works like a big gun, nor in large volume small arms like shootaboyz.

Krumpin is good but I want more dakka…

 Tomsug wrote:
What I really miss in orky army for a long long time is … more dakka.

Seriously

Except Dakkajet, Mega Shoota and Gigashoota - there is nothing. Rokkits are great! Makes a great Bang! But there is no real dakka. Neither in in the form that works like a big gun, nor in large volume small arms like shootaboyz.

Krumpin is good but I want more dakka…

Pretty much, Flash Gitz is the one outlier where they actually feel proppa Orky where they have both the volume and impact to actually do meaningful damage to pretty much any target. Other guns like our big shootas, shootas and dakkaguns just feel like time wasters with both how little they hit and when they do they bounce off enemy units. I remember back in the day when shoota boyz were actually relevant as a choice vs choppa boyz and twin-linked dakkaguns from warbikers were actually a legitimately good shooting unit.

Yeah, shootas vs sluggas actually being a choice worth considering again would be great. Shoota mobs been doing nothing but collecting dust for a couple of editions now.

Ufthak Blackhawk

Seems he has some dakka

Legends by default I guess?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
But gives me a hope, next wave of orks would be a dakka orks!

GW must be trolling or high on koolaid, like new mini and no data sheet? WTH!

Guess this a we show the mini get's rules for codex? Is it a stand in for Barduk? Like i don't recall any Bad moons warboss, is it a generic? Or do the old guard know what their talking about?

Love the mini though, can't buy.. too much to paint lol

Hopefully he gets proper rules in the new codex and opens up options for a proper Dakka Waaagh