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 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are people’s thoughts on the Mutilator rules? I appreciate it might be difficult given we don’t know points.

Looking good, dependant on points.

Their old weakness of being slow as hell is completely removed by deep strike/rapid ingress. They dish out plenty of mortal wounds, and their weapons are skewed to attacking big things rather than hordes which is nice. Being leadable by Kravek is cool but I'm not sure if he would be better off in Obliterators.

Still salty they are not playable for WE.

Slipspace wrote:

 JNAProductions wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
What are people’s thoughts on the Mutilator rules? I appreciate it might be difficult given we don’t know points.

They should have more attacks, methinks.

I think they have exactly the right amount, and giving them more is an example of what's wrong with modern 40k. I hope we see more units in this kind of range in 11th, rather than 3 guys dishing out almost 30 attacks between them. They've got a pretty small Rapid Ingress footprint and the re-roll charges with a 5" move should get them the charge into a target a decent amount of the time from RI.

Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.

 Insularum wrote:
Still salty they are not playable for WE.

Let us beseech the Dark Gods that 11th allows the cult legions more access to stuff outside their 'bespoke' wheelhouse.

Dudeface wrote:
Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.

Once they lose a model maybe. As it is a unit of 3 would seem to fairly reliably blend a 10 man GEQ squad, a 5 man Marine squad, do a number on Terminators and melt lighter vehicles.

If you could just point them at 350-400 point units and deathstars, wouldn't they need to be crazy expensive?
At 9/6/3 attacks they'd blend basically anything.

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.

Once they lose a model maybe. As it is a unit of 3 would seem to fairly reliably blend a 10 man GEQ squad, a 5 man Marine squad, do a number on Terminators and melt lighter vehicles.

If you could just point them at 350-400 point units and deathstars, wouldn't they need to be crazy expensive?
At 9/6/3 attacks they'd blend basically anything.

Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.

A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.

Rules for the new Tinboys.

Sadly not Tinboyz

https://www.warhammer-community.com/en-gb/articles/jxzkm0hu/eye-of-terror-new-rules-for-imperial-knights-and-adeptus-mechanicus/

Skitarii lads seem quite fun. And I was initially thick, as I wondered why you wouldn’t go for the big guns. Then I read further and looked at the models, and realised the diddy guns are just that. Shoulder mounted side arms.

4+ to hit isn’t fabulous, but if you can stack a +1 on it? They might hit surprisingly hard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Knights shotgun is potentially hilarious on Critical Hits. If I’m reading it right. But D6+3 Blast, and any 6’s to hit generate a further D6+3? Or does Rapid Fire only trigger the once? Or, as let’s face it highly likely, have I got entirely the wrong end of the stick. Like the half Labrador I am.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Rules for the new Tinboys.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Knights shotgun is potentially hilarious on Critical Hits. If I’m reading it right. But D6+3 Blast, and any 6’s to hit generate a further D6+3? Or does Rapid Fire only trigger the once? Or, as let’s face it highly likely, have I got entirely the wrong end of the stick. Like the half Labrador I am.

Rapid Fire is the “get +X shots at half range” trait. So against a 10-man squad 12" away you get 2d6+8 shots.

Ahhh! OK. I was dead wrong. Still, given it also Ignores Cover where Objectives are involved, and is 24” range, and quick?

That’s still potentially very nasty.

Dudeface wrote:
Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.

A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.

Maybe a contrived example but lets have both units hit a maulerfiend. I think if both take sustained hits, the Mauler expects to do 10.8333~ wounds. The Mutilators expect to do 12.222~ wounds - and 3 mortal wounds on the charge. So nearly 50% more.

If the Mutilators got 3 attacks, they would be expecting to do 18.333~ damage and 3 mortal wounds, that's more or less double the Maulerfiend. What points would that make them? 220-240? Feel like you just point at any "big unit" in the opponents army and get your money back.

I guess you can argue it - but I'd say its easier to screen a monster running across the table than it is 3 deepstriking infantry models with natural rerolls to charge - even on relatively large bases. The odds are also against the Maulerfiend killing 10 GEQ on the charge.
You might take both to apply pressure at different points.

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.

A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.

Maybe a contrived example but lets have both units hit a maulerfiend. I think if both take sustained hits, the Mauler expects to do 10.8333~ wounds. The Mutilators expect to do 12.222~ wounds - and 3 mortal wounds on the charge. So nearly 50% more.

If the Mutilators got 3 attacks, they would be expecting to do 18.333~ damage and 3 mortal wounds, that's more or less double the Maulerfiend. What points would that make them? 220-240? Feel like you just point at any "big unit" in the opponents army and get your money back.

I guess you can argue it - but I'd say its easier to screen a monster running across the table than it is 3 deepstriking infantry models with natural rerolls to charge - even on relatively large bases. The odds are also against the Maulerfiend killing 10 GEQ on the charge.
You might take both to apply pressure at different points.

Well given a maulerfiend is 2/3 potentially of the cost that makes sense, it just isn't sat with its ass out in the breeze after doing it and depending on cp for ingress to be useful. Honestly if you want to kill guardsmen you jave plenty more mobile melee options in the book. Killing marines in melee? Possessed or terminators. Terminators fill a similar role but with added guns on top.

Unless dirt cheap I can't see mutilators doing much the army doesn't already do better and cheaper. Their main bonus point is they're flexible, which to me says you're taking them without an intended purpose.

Its the Destrier!!!

Hopefully news of it's preorder on Sunday.

Dudeface wrote:

Tyel wrote:

Dudeface wrote:
Well said, lets promite dialing back lethality rather than promoting it. They seem a bit pillowfisted compared to some units but that's not inherently bad.

Once they lose a model maybe. As it is a unit of 3 would seem to fairly reliably blend a 10 man GEQ squad, a 5 man Marine squad, do a number on Terminators and melt lighter vehicles.

If you could just point them at 350-400 point units and deathstars, wouldn't they need to be crazy expensive?
At 9/6/3 attacks they'd blend basically anything.

Assuming they're 180 for 3 as a reasonable guess in todays economy, I'm not sure wiping a 70pt unit then being sat with their ass in the wind is considered a fair return. Although that should be normal in reality.

A maulerfiend is more reliable delivery, tougher than 2 mutitlators and drops 6 debatably similar anti vehicle hits + extra attacks for 130. So the current attack pool is a bit low in comparison across the range given their limitations.

I would by no means presume what their price will be in advance.

Everyone thought Twin Lance would drop at a sensible points cost in the range of 220 to 280 points. Instead they dropped at a comical 160.

Points are the usual decider. I mean sure at 200 they are getting expensive and probably not that good. But I think they could be priced to move at 150-160.

I mean they aren't trivial to kill. T7 5W 2+/5++. That's not a great target with either 2 damage or 3 damage guns. Low S D1 will do almost nothing. If 60 points a model maybe its worth popping them with lascannons - but then you have the vagaries of D6 damage. If they eat two lascannon shots that's getting expensive.

5W is legitimately a great breakpoint for unit survivability. It's just an awkward number to deal with efficiently. I'd like to see GW use higher W values in place of ever-increasing T, Sv and Invulnerables in the future.

Mutilators feel like a 180-ish point unit but I could see them going a bit lower. CSM have a lot of good melee options, though these fill a bit of a niche, which is good. You'll likely only get one good activation out of them though. Even if they don't die to return fire/melee, the M5 will make them easier to handle once they've arrived.

Seems to my inexpert mind they’re possibly a great unit for smaller points levels.

As noted by the more informed, their Deep Strike/Rapid Ingress should help them get into at least one punch up, depending on how strung out your opponent’s force is. And their stats make them kind of tricky to deal with efficiently.

And, where it’s smaller armies? Their choice of Hitting Sticks means whatever it is they end up getting stuck into is going to take a decent kicking. Perhaps not squished in a single round, but hard enough to leave whatever they just jumped with a nasty limp. It also offers some level of insurance from your opponent piling on with another unit. Hypothetical? The Mutilators arrive and get stuck into say, an Intercessor Squad. There I’d imagine you’d want Rending Strikes, where every unsaved wound is an outright kill. If the opponent then piles in with say, a Dreadnought or Character? The Thunderous Blows could make them regret that intervention pretty swiftly. And so they’re a tricky opponent once stuck in, as they can, aha, turn their hand to pretty much anything.

Looks very cool

Looks really silly so is probably real. In a world with fully enclosed dreadnoughts why do GW keep trying to push exposed pilots?

'But what if Karamazov was a woman?!'

Don't think I like it.... which is weird since I like Karamazon.

Billicus wrote:
Looks really silly so is probably real. In a world with fully enclosed dreadnoughts why do GW keep trying to push exposed pilots?

Ask the Eldar, they started it.

Billicus wrote:
Looks really silly so is probably real. In a world with fully enclosed dreadnoughts why do GW keep trying to push exposed pilots?

Same reason why helmets are optional; someone thought it looked cool if you can see the pilot.
Just look at Necrons; you'd think that they would use impersonal, geometric designs that are completely automated, but no, they have exposed pilots for some reason that in a video game would be glowing with a bright "shoot me here" light.

 GaroRobe wrote:


Looks very cool

It's... fine? It's aggressively unexciting and fills the same visual "raised seat/pulpit" space as Junith Eruita, which I suppose is consistent for the faction? But it also feels rather unnecessary.

GW certainly isn't disproving the comments about the last couple years of releases being nostalgia-bait.

I fall into the "It's OK" camp - I probably won't buy one just for the sake of building and painting it, but if it's useful for my Sisters army and fills a niche that I don't have covered already, I wouldn't mind adding it in.

 Ashiraya wrote:
But it also feels rather unnecessary.

Role duplication is real, and yeah... This does duplicate roles filled by other models. An Aircraft or a Superheavy would have been a better choice, because right now Sisters have nothing filling those roles.

But my attitude is "For any model range that is smaller than Marines (which is all of them), EVERY model is necessary... Even if it duplicates a role.

New Drop Pods? THAT'S unnecessary.

The walker looks very 'flat'. I wonder how deep the model is. And that scroll the cherub is carrying is very, very angular.

 Shakalooloo wrote:
The walker looks very 'flat'. I wonder how deep the model is. And that scroll the cherub is carrying is very, very angular.

Scroll is a very special kind of scroll its fire proof apparently.

Honestly it looks a lot like Pete the Wargamers Crucible of Champions Inquisitor, if it had armiger legs instead of a Dreadnought base

 Shakalooloo wrote:
The walker looks very 'flat'. I wonder how deep the model is. And that scroll the cherub is carrying is very, very angular.

It's got the chains behind it from the rumour engine, so perhaps a bit of a train

chaos0xomega wrote:
I cant believe people still fall for this crap. Its marketing/manufactured demand. They get people worked up about something (ie how dare they take our Steel Legion away), suddenly a bunch of people who had no opinion over it become passionate on the topic, then a couple years later surprise heres the thing you all want.

Now instead of selling steel legion minis to all 5 people that care enough to buy them on release day, theres thousands frothing at the mouth for them because it was taken from them before and they are going to make sure they dont miss out on them this time lest they be taken away again.

Oh look, I was right (except it was weeks for the preview and not years, tho the minis are 2 years out).

STEEL LEGION

But they don't match my metals.