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I'd really prefer nothing but fragmented hints of some quasi-mythical figure who supposedly united all of humanity in the ancient past and a strong, enigmatic psychic presence that remains at the core of Terra inside of a mysterious temple that no one has entered in millennia. Details beyond that should be scarce. Let the fan's mind fill in the story as to who or what the Emperor of Man on the Golden Throne really is.

Sure, there is definitely still a lot of mystery when it comes to the Emperor, but in my opinion, I still think we know too much. Every time he chats with other characters, shares philosophical monologues or has details of his backstory revealed, it almost always detracts from the mystique.

I don't need this guy to be a character in a story as much as simply a concept. When you're watching a scary movie, its always less scary once the ghost is actually revealed on the screen. Same idea.

Idk, just some of my thoughts as I dig into 40k lore.

Oh yeah, absolutely. I enjoyed Master of Mankind, it's a nice novel, but I do treat the entire Heresy series like fan fiction (I mean it basically is).

I see it as just these author's ideas of the characters and setting and feel comfortable disregarding whatever I don't like.

I think the setting was better when these things were mysteries - the closed door is always more fascinating than whatever is behind it, because our imaginations are so stimulated by it.

I don't mind that they make the Heresy novels and advance the plot. I'll read the books if I know the author is decent. But I don't take it too seriously.

 Da Boss wrote:

I think the setting was better when these things were mysteries - the closed door is always more fascinating than whatever is behind it, because our imaginations are so stimulated by it.

Ah, see I didn't even realize that there used to be more mystery back in the day. Shame that is no longer as much the case. I dabbled in the hobby as a teenager but I am just now getting back int it as an adult, so still a bit of a lore noob I guess.

Eh I don’t agree there’s ever been that much mystery about The Emperor.

Rogue Trader presents a decent amount of background, which is then considerably expanded upon in the near legendary “Realms of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness”.

Has the Heresy series over exposed him? Arguably, I’m neither gonna agree nor disagree as I’ve not read what is now the majority of the books.

But there’s plenty written on Him way before the Heresy series began.

I started in 2e and I felt it was pretty mysterious. The details were pretty vague and given a fairly mythic feel. Now you can read a novel where he talks to people, and he has communicated with people in the current day. It used to be fairly ambiguous as to whether the Emperor was alive or dead on the Golden Throne, that ambiguity has been removed.

The Rogue Trader section on the Emperor is also pretty clearly written from an in universe, pro-Imperial POV, which signals that you should take it with a healthy dose of salt.

I've not read the Realms of Chaos books. I should give them a look.

Towards the end of 2nd edition the Emperor was fairly mysterious
RT was long out of print by the end of 2nd. Realms of Chaos were near-mythical, the Internet had only barely started creeping into people's lives and was not at the point where you could easily grab scans of everything GW had ever produced, RT lore was something you heard from a friend or read in a document floating around the nascent internet known as the 40k Fluff Bible, a word document which attempted to collect all of 40k lore to that point in one place.

Honestly it was kind of great, the mystery was intact. you could read about the Shamen and the Sensei but you were never quite sure if they were real, there were almost no accounts of what the Emperor actually did (the most fleshed out details of this came in the Index Astartes articles during 3rd and 4th edition) and Black Library didn't exist yet, so there was no 50+ book series outlining every thought, word and deed while the heresy was going on.

It was kind of fun to have that blank period of history, but as GW began to backfill the lore more and more the mystery and uncertainty lessened. Not just to do with the Emperor, but also with things like the Grey Knights and Inquisition as well

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Rogue Trader presents a decent amount of background, which is then considerably expanded upon in the near legendary “Realms of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness”.

It was the other book, actually. "The Lost and the Damned".

I was good with that. It was still pretty minimal. He existed. He was powerful once. He wasn't a god. But he was as close to that as a human could ever get. And he eradicated Horus in a big, climactic fight that ended with a blast of pure psychic energy so powerful that even the Chaos Gods felt the need to back off. That's why the Star Child matters. Because if that being is reborn, then even the Chaos Powers will be forced to take notice.

It felt mythic. It made the tragedy of the Horus Heresy all the greater because we saw how everything that had happened up until then had been inevitable. We only had the vaguest of details about his background, but it was clear that he was going to succeed in conquering the galaxy. Reuniting humanity under his banner was inevitable because of what he was. Putting the entire galaxy under the sway of humanity also was inevitable because of what he was... right up until Horus was possessed. And that caused everything to fall apart. It was the tragedy of a new golden age that was stopped just before it came to be.


I haven't read any of the HH novels. But what I've heard about the climactic fight seems the exact opposite of the previous lore. The Emperor is no longer a near-mythic being, leading a wave of inevitability. And it all ends with Horus inexplicably dragging the Emperor around the bridge of Horus's ship, while the Emperor keeps playing cons to trick Horus. If this Star Child is reborn, then who really cares?

Without the inevitability, a good chunk of the tragedy has been stripped away.

Yes I wasn't a fan of the Emperor getting the Dan Abnett treatment, and writing unfinished background allows your imagination to do the rest.

I've not read many of the HH books so maybe it's different, but although he is a more fleshed out character there's still a lot left out. I like how he is represented in the Cawl book (Great Work maybe?) where when faced with him you see whatever it is you/he might want to see. Nothing is truly exact, people see what they want to see and they've done a decent job of saying "hey things could change". Nothing is written in stone.

The Dark Imperium trilogy I also enjoyed. I read that to sort of get up to speed on new 40k and I was surprised with how much I enjoyed it. It presents the Emperor as this powerful force that even he seems unable to properly control. Barely alive, overly destructive and barely restrained.

When was Ian Watson’s Inquisition War series written? It was before Black Library existed, and it was our first time seeing the Emperor “on screen”. It still left a lot of mystery.

HH is not the definitive story of the Horus Heresy. In this TED Talk, I will -

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Eh I don’t agree there’s ever been that much mystery about The Emperor.

Rogue Trader presents a decent amount of background, which is then considerably expanded upon in the near legendary “Realms of Chaos, Slaves to Darkness”.

Has the Heresy series over exposed him? Arguably, I’m neither gonna agree nor disagree as I’ve not read what is now the majority of the books.

But there’s plenty written on Him way before the Heresy series began.

It's worth remembering that RoC and StD went out of print for a long time, anyone coming in from 2nd ed onwards didn't have access to that background as the internet wasn't then what it is now. Those books ended up going for over £400 each on Ebay at one point, iirc, so definitely not something that can be taken as assumed that the majority of hobbyists would have read.

He was a lot more vague and mysterious because there was hardly anything written about him beyond snippets up until the heresy series, and he isn't in that much at all.

Tree_Beard wrote:
I'd really prefer nothing but fragmented hints of some quasi-mythical figure who supposedly united all of humanity in the ancient past and a strong, enigmatic psychic presence that remains at the core of Terra inside of a mysterious temple that no one has entered in millennia. Details beyond that should be scarce. Let the fan's mind fill in the story as to who or what the Emperor of Man on the Golden Throne really is.

Sure, there is definitely still a lot of mystery when it comes to the Emperor, but in my opinion, I still think we know too much. Every time he chats with other characters, shares philosophical monologues or has details of his backstory revealed, it almost always detracts from the mystique.

I don't need this guy to be a character in a story as much as simply a concept. When you're watching a scary movie, its always less scary once the ghost is actually revealed on the screen. Same idea.

Idk, just some of my thoughts as I dig into 40k lore.

Yeah, I'd love to return to the glory days of 3rd edition. Back when most things were abstract and nebulous. Back when there were only 7 depictions of the primarchs and 2 of them were Leman Russ (one as a human "commander"). I spent many, many years creating artwork of how I imagined the primarchs to look only to have all my love for the setting completely destroyed by those godawful Blanche scribbled abominations. Every edition the lore becomes more and more generic and boring. Remember when Space Marines were demi-god warrior monks that were so rare the chances of a citizen ever seeing one were slim to none. Space Marines were mythical beings that most people didnt think were real. Now marines are as common as ants, imperial children hang posters of Dorn in their bedrooms and play with dreadnaught plushies. Remember when Necrons were unknown horrors that simply brought death and destruction to the living? Before they became a silly crew of saturday morning, mustache twirling, cartoon villains with B1 droid henchmen? Remember when Custodes were just background set dressings for the golden throne? Back when they had a tragic history of failure and regret. Back when they were wonderful symbols of the imperium's regression and blind adherence to tradition and dogma? Now they're just marines++ with extra special fancy gold armor.
Remember when the Horus Heresy was an age of myth and legend? Now we have G-man consorting with xenos and struggling to pick up a pen... pick up a pen... in an age of servo skulls, pict recorders, holograms, servitors, and data-scribes.

Warhammer lore died once Garro told Dorn of Horus' treachery. From that point onward there has been little to nothing of worth... except maybe Legion but the big reveal in that book was just an explanation of the two possible outcomes of the heresy.

Making the Emperor and the Primarchs massive sized (even if the Emperor is only doing it through psychic trickery) is so stupid. There was an old bit of background about how Orks thought humans were stupid because they never knew which one was supposed to be in charge. They'd argue about it and give themselves fancy uniforms and hats to try and convince the others. Whereas for Orks it was easy. Look around: Are any Orks in your line of sight bigger than you? No? Then you're in charge. Yes? Then lissen up to the bigger lads!

Now Imperial humans work the same way. Guardsmen>Firstborn>Primaris>Custodes>Primarchs>Big E

If they ever find an even bigger golden man out there it's gonna throw the Imperium into upheaval!

Not to mention how stupid it is that all the structures and items that a normal human would use would be too tiny for the Primarchs, and how their being massive giants wasn't really mentioned in any of the old background about them landing on their home worlds. Like did the Khan also find a really gigantic horse to ride around on, or did he just run into battle alongside his mounted warriors? Did no one on Macragge bring Bobby to the doctor when he exhibited gigantism?

And roughly human sized superhumans aren't exactly unheard of. I don't see any reason why it's cooler to have a massive sized supernaturally strong and tough dude or a normal space marine (before they were embiggened too much) sized one. Everything the Primarchs do could be done by a Marine sized person, and everything would make a lot more sense if that was the case. I know it's to sell big expensive miniatures, but I wish it didn't work so well!

Oh, definitely! Same with the Primarchs. I think the HH books destroyed a lot that was cool about the setting.

I'm inclined to agree that more mythical is better, and Rick Preistly has said in interviews that was his intention at the start. However, one of the great things about Warhammer is the sheer amount of background material there is now - 'less is more' is not a maxim that applies to this universe - and I'll happily bypass the HH books.... for now.

Couple of counterpoints though:

There's still plenty of mystery and mythicality in the setting, in fact it's everywhere you look, on purpose, so you can fill in the blanks. However much material is produced, we will never no everything, and there is no truth.

There's a game set when the Emperor was alive, and has been since the early days, so the HH books are contemporary background material for that.

I hate the HH books and what they’ve to demystify and “marvel-ise” the setting but recently I was at warhammer world and heard a couple of you for kids really buzzing about all the HH stuff, naming the characters and getting all giddy over back stories and which books they were from and I realised that to many younger players all that fluff that has been demystified is all they know and those books and that background is what’s brought them to the hobby. I’m Happy to ignore it all myself but I’ve started to feel a bit gatekeepery if I moan about how it shouldnt have been so heavily explained.

I certainly wouldn't intrude on someone to tell them my opinion, but if it comes up I'm gonna be honest about it. No need not to be in my view - I'm fine with them liking it, I even enjoyed a decent number of the books for what they are.

But I don't feel like a gate keeper, because I'm not stopping anyone doing what they like. And in any case, it's not like fans of the newer stuff are always particularly kind about the older stuff they don't like, either. So I don't worry about it. It's cool that those kids were excited and liked the new stuff, but it's not for me and that's alright.

I spend a lot of time chewing on stuff to do with this setting because I really love it. I've been continuously collecting and painting miniatures for 40K for nearly 30 years. And no one around me cares about it at all, so I come here to discuss it with people. I'd be sad if we didn't have honest discussions for fear of upsetting people. Like, you've disagreed with me about the changes to Orks in 3e, but I didn't feel like you were gatekeeping me- I respect your opinion while still keeping my own. That's how it should be.

 Da Boss wrote:
I certainly wouldn't intrude on someone to tell them my opinion, but if it comes up I'm gonna be honest about it. No need not to be in my view - I'm fine with them liking it, I even enjoyed a decent number of the books for what they are.

But I don't feel like a gate keeper, because I'm not stopping anyone doing what they like. And in any case, it's not like fans of the newer stuff are always particularly kind about the older stuff they don't like, either. So I don't worry about it. It's cool that those kids were excited and liked the new stuff, but it's not for me and that's alright.

I spend a lot of time chewing on stuff to do with this setting because I really love it. I've been continuously collecting and painting miniatures for 40K for nearly 30 years. And no one around me cares about it at all, so I come here to discuss it with people. I'd be sad if we didn't have honest discussions for fear of upsetting people. Like, you've disagreed with me about the changes to Orks in 3e, but I didn't feel like you were gatekeeping me- I respect your opinion while still keeping my own. That's how it should be.

Wasn’t meaning to imply you were being a gatekeeper at all, that was more a reflection on my past behaviour. I’m more at peace with the heresy books now as I see they have done some good for the game, where as before I thought they’d only damaged the setting.

I agree whole heartedly with your opinion, the mystery was all part of the appeal for me. The beauty of the 40K fluff is it’s all presented in such a way that you can easily discount bits you don’t like and justify it then setting. The vast majority of imperial citizens no jotting of the heresy’s history.

Oh no, I understood that you were only talking about yourself, but I felt you were being harsh on yourself too!

I'm happy with my stance that the HH series is entertaining fan fiction, and that my version of it is just as valid.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
When was Ian Watson’s Inquisition War series written? It was before Black Library existed, and it was our first time seeing the Emperor “on screen”. It still left a lot of mystery.

Also revealed he was bat droppings insane.

In a mood for counter arguments. I’m not particularly invested in them, but what’s a discussion without give and take of ideas.

With The Emperor somewhat overexposed in the Heresy books, it’s served to undermine the legitimacy of The Imperium.

See, the whole God Emperor thing only works so long as the myth holds up. Depending on how much of the Heresy you’ve read, and how you interpret some of the events? He just becomes an immensely powerful, immensely arrogant but fundamentally flawed being. One ultimately corrupted by his own overconfidence and shortsightedness.

The whole “Primarch Daddy Issues” thing is often just written off as ropey tropey writing. But it’s such an integral part of The Emperor’s flaws, and how paper thin his plans were.

Had the abduction not occurred, we can only speculate. But it did, and his “sons”, who were only ever tools and a means to an end, were raised among humanity, and its familial structures. And so when rediscovered, he appropriated that - and from there he was measured against other expectations learned by his “sons”.

He then demanded utmost loyalty, backed by some seemingly genetic jiggery pokery to incline the Primarchs to just that. Something he hadn’t really earned from any of them - and for some, he never really did.

And so his underlying lack of humanity is exposed. By that point, he’d existed for all of recorded history, watching from the sidelines, but always at least a step removed from humanity.

We also have what, 27,000 years between now and the Unification of Terra, where The Emperor is conspicuous by his absence. And we only have his word for it he was awaiting until mankind needed him.

Or, given those 27,000 years are a big old in-universe mystery of history? Maybe he had previous attempts, in various guises, and cocked all of them up. What if he seeded and accelerated mankind’s psychic awakening, which lead to disaster? What if his aloofness was a triggering factor in the rebellion of the Men Of Iron?

He’s built up as this all knowing being. But what if he’s just a powerful, incompetent idiot? Who has been buggering about throughout history, causing catastrophic collapse after catastrophic collapse? From the Bronze Age Collapse to The Imperium? The same bold attempts to conquer all blowing up in his face?

What if part of this is His lacking an equal? A being even vaguely near his own power to challenge his plans and poke holes in them?

And so, in conclusion, there’s still a hell of a lot about The Emperor we don’t know, and a hell of a lot we take on faith and say-so.

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
When was Ian Watson’s Inquisition War series written? It was before Black Library existed, and it was our first time seeing the Emperor “on screen”. It still left a lot of mystery.

The first book of the trilogy was first published in 1990. The 2nd and 3rd 1994 and 1995 respectively.

The_Real_Chris wrote:

Also revealed he was bat droppings insane.

Or the Inquisitor telling the story. There's a big section in the beginning where the narrator is questioning the veracity of the tale. I like the presentation because it's like "here's a possible 40k story, take it or leave it."

That section was added later.

 RaptorusRex wrote:
That section was added later.

Was it? It couldn't have been much later. I think my copy is pretty old.

No, the framing device at the beginning was part of the book from first publication.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

Or, given those 27,000 years are a big old in-universe mystery of history? Maybe he had previous attempts, in various guises, and cocked all of them up. What if he seeded and accelerated mankind’s psychic awakening, which lead to disaster? What if his aloofness was a triggering factor in the rebellion of the Men Of Iron?

We can be reasonably sure that the tens of thousands of years staying in the background was accurate when it was originally presented. AFAIK, the first mention of it was in RoC: LotD, and it's presented by an omniscient narrator, instead of by an in-setting narrator. And we know that it's an omniscient narrator because the section ends by introducing the Star Child, which no one - outside of the Chaos Gods - knows of. The section mentioned that he occasionally, and for brief periods of time, adopted guises that we would recognize as historical figures. But he always tried to pass himself off as a regular human while in those guises.

He’s built up as this all knowing being. But what if he’s just a powerful, incompetent idiot? Who has been buggering about throughout history, causing catastrophic collapse after catastrophic collapse? From the Bronze Age Collapse to The Imperium? The same bold attempts to conquer all blowing up in his face?

You learn more from failure than you do from success. If he'd tried and failed repeatedly, then I would have expected him to learn some things over the millennia.

 Apologist wrote:
No, the framing device at the beginning was part of the book from first publication.

There's another one that has an off the cuff line about the abhuman coming from a line that was cut by the great deveourer long ago.

THAT was new, because it wrote out the squats. That appears only in the republishing from the 2000s onwards.



The main issue with the HH and the characters therein, is prose. 40k's grandiosity comes from its original style of writing, which was a textbook style that emulated history books (unsurprising given Priestley's background) that talks in evocative scope and sweeping descriptions.

BL is a pulp prose factory and as soon as you put dialogue and plot against a historical narrative, you shrink the scope down to personal experiences and relationships.

The very nature of transitioning from historic overview to precise dialogue and personal thoughts, you loose that grandiosity.