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deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?

So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?

I already addressed this

"So same price as previous which had plastic terrain and 22 minis... this one has 14minis and MDF."

 NAVARRO wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?

So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?

I already addressed this

"So same price as previous which had plastic terrain and 22 minis... this one has 14minis and MDF."

For a new player, both miniatures and terrain are easier to assemble.

deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?

So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?

Yeah, some people are willing to throw 60€ just for the Plaguecaster alone
Not that bad and hopefully it'll give that caster a price I'm content with on eBay as I need nothing else from that Set.

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?

So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?

Yeah, some people are willing to throw 60€ just for the Plaguecaster alone
Not that bad and hopefully it'll give that caster a price I'm content with on eBay as I need nothing else from that Set.

IIRC they were blind boxes, and like 500 yen a pop, any secondary market prices were just supply and demand and could vary wildly.

If the value is great simply because collectors ar willing to pay the price for a single model, it is no a good starter set

Specially with the usual stock problems

 Kid_Kyoto wrote:

Sgt. Cortez wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?

So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?

Yeah, some people are willing to throw 60€ just for the Plaguecaster alone
Not that bad and hopefully it'll give that caster a price I'm content with on eBay as I need nothing else from that Set.

IIRC they were blind boxes, and like 500 yen a pop, any secondary market prices were just supply and demand and could vary wildly.

They had a release in the UK at least, and you could buy a box of 6 or 8 which guaranteed you everything. They sold out in minutes though I think.


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 NAVARRO wrote:

deano2099 wrote:
Were the Space Marine Hero sets this is made up not £35-£40 each?

Is a regular Squad of 7 Plague Marines not £37 right now? and the smallest box of Intercessors £40?

So a chunk cheaper than that, plus terrain and an intro rule book. Not sure how it works out as a bad deal. More than is ideal for a starter set I'd agree, and the usual caveat that GW prices are in a league of their own anyway. But as "deals" go seems fairly decent?

I already addressed this

"So same price as previous which had plastic terrain and 22 minis... this one has 14minis and MDF."

Why does the number of minis matter? There are fewer minis because the teams have a smaller number of minis. But the minis are also bigger in size... if this came with a Necron Kill Team that had 10 warriors and 10 scarab swarms would you be talking about how much better value it was? Or would you think that was silly?

Also there's the small matter of rampant inflation the last three years. A £68 set in October 2021 would be priced at £85 now just from inflation. In real terms it is £17 cheaper. And you can play out of the box.

The numer of minis matters because we buy a physical product not an arbitrary game design decision which team has how many operatives /which models cost how many points.

That said, with models being larger and more detailed it is understandable, as is your inflation argument.

Cyel wrote:
The numer of minis matters because we buy a physical product not an arbitrary game design decision which team has how many operatives /which models cost how many points.

That said, with models being larger and more detailed it is understandable, as is your inflation argument.

When people, for example, calculate if the Xmas Battleforces are a good deal - no-one talks about the number of minis. "Oh the IronJawz box is the best value it has 27 minis."

They look at how much it costs to get the minis separately to figure out which gives the better deal. Or same with the Hachette partworks. No-one ever asked "how many minis total come with it?". The only people who regularly talk about the number of minis in the box is GW themselves in marketing. And we generally ignore it as we know it's not really relevant.

I struggle with the idea that this isn't good value, albeit by GW standard (I'll accept the "all GW stuff is overpriced" one - can't argue with that):

You've got a 20% discount on the combined cost of what these minis were last sold for.

These are minis currently unavailable anywhere else, except for at huge markups on the secondary market.

You also get a bunch of MDF terrain and rules for playing a game with just those minis as soon as you've built them.

In terms of absolutely value, comparative to other GW products, it's good. Is it a good starter set? Not sure until we see the rules included. Was the Kill Team 2021 starter set better value? Yes, but then that was a *really good* value set. And it had to compete with Octarius which they clearly produced a few too many of.

The option to buy the whole box didn't include all the collections, it only guaranteed one of each blind box. As mentioned, this set includes a model you couldn't get that way which only came with a companion paintset.

 Haighus wrote:
The option to buy the whole box didn't include all the collections, it only guaranteed one of each blind box. As mentioned, this set includes a model you couldn't get that way which only came with a companion paintset.

Yeah it's a slightly better deal than I'm making it out to be.

(If I remember right, with the marines you got 8 models in the display box, which included one duplicated one you don't get a duplicate of here. But with the Death Guard you only got 6 models in the box, and the seventh was in the paint set. I sort of assumed those would cancel each other out but realistically gaining the paint set model is more valuable than losing the duplicate marine).

The gymnastics some do go trough to try to justify something is a bit too much.

Why does the number of minis on a given starter box, in this industry, is such feature and everyone is so proud to Flag it on their marketing release? I think this is self explanatory and I refuse to believe people don't understand this concept, which is part of wargaming since the dawn of times.

Quantity: Smaller size minis? Are you telling me 10 Ork Kommandos are small? Yes the Guard was smaller and so was the extra goblin and Squig. So you had 10x Large Ork minis and 12xregular infantry. Now you have 14 Large infantry, thats it... you still have something like 8 regular sized minis missing and no, theres no more plastic in 1 primaris than 2 regular minis with the options. Let's also not forget Orks, for example, had 2 different built options on previous team so you could have 2 boxes and potentially build a different flavour. PMs only have head swap, no optional load out and not sure about Marines.
I could carry on but it's clear the quantity of minis is less now. It's not scarabs vs Titans man.

Rarity: So because these were rare a couple years ago it justifies the price on a starter set aimed at errrr starters? Thats of absolutly no value to a new starter.

Rules: not tangible at all or quantifiable.

Terrain: Previously Chunky few pieces of plastic and barricades VS Prepainted MDF? No comparison in quality here.

From a gaming point of view they are both the same value, they let you start a new edition of X game and probably give you the same bang for your buck.
From a hobby point of view you have substantially less hours of enjoyment painting 14 minis as opposed to 22, because they have the same level of quality/detail and less load out options. Heck you could divide the 10 man full teams by 2x5s and involve more peeps painting.

You can say it's simpler for starters, easier minis, prepainted MDF. And that can be a bit subjective to determine the real value but its a legit debate. Not understanding why difference in the quantity of equally nice minis per box does determines the value, is borderline fishing for weird arguments.

Either way have fun if you like buy it and share it more power to you.

Like I say, you can question the value compared to the last starter set, that was really good value for GW I agree. But that was three years ago. This one is cheaper in real terms, and has a bit less stuff. But compared to what else is available from GW- I suspect you won't find 7 marines and 7 death guard marines for anywhere near that price anywhere else. Which I why I think it's silly to call it bad value. But you're stuck in 2021 so I get it.

deano2099 wrote:
Like I say, you can question the value compared to the last starter set, that was really good value for GW I agree. But that was three years ago. This one is cheaper in real terms, and has a bit less stuff. But compared to what else is available from GW- I suspect you won't find 7 marines and 7 death guard marines for anywhere near that price anywhere else. Which I why I think it's silly to call it bad value. But you're stuck in 2021 so I get it.

I think you fail to understand that the value of KT starter set can only be established by its quantifiable/tangible parts and by comparison with the exact KT Starter set that preceded it. After all they have the exact same product targets an one replaces the other. The value is established to be less than previous you seem to confirm that, but since you think that it's better because GW prices in a few years keep going up and up then so be it. Rest assured following your line of thought any deal today is worse than whats coming in future XD... regardless of its tangible parts.

Thats why some say "no deal" and yes we complain about the Christmas box sets being so thin or the fact that PMs 7xman set costed the same as 10xmen similar box sets etc... people compare every single minute every new "deal"... Theres a reason people go wild for kickstarters "deals" that offer loads of minis, theres a simple nature in every avid consumer that more just means, simply more.
But go ahead simply compare it with individual boxes that are not "deals" or "starters"... even better, compare it with ridiculous speculative prices that the rare blind sets were. Now thats a great deal.

What's more important than your or my idea of great value, is that this is not aimed at us and slowly GW is introducing less quantity and in this case less quality to the newcomers. They are training their future client expectations to be really low and quite expensive. This brings back to an interesting comment in this thread before, flagging how "brand" standards are being diluted.

But let's just leave the thread continue with other Dakkaites that want to enjoy this box and review it etc.

Yes, can we just move on or take this discussion to a dedicated topic of its own? Cheers!

 NAVARRO wrote:
[]

I think you fail to understand that the value of KT starter set can only be established by its quantifiable/tangible parts and by comparison with the exact KT Starter set that preceded it. After all they have the exact same product targets an one replaces the other.

Right. But you agreed that in terms of the game itself, it's unquantifiable or the exact same value. And your entire argument was it was worth less in hobby time because of the amount of plastic. So I don't understand why the only valid comparison to you is the starter set for the previous edition of the game? And not other boxes of plastic. Or boxes of the same plastic when last released.

The value is established to be less than previous you seem to confirm that, but since you think that it's better because GW prices in a few years keep going up and up then so be it. Rest assured following your line of thought any deal today is worse than whats coming in future XD... regardless of its tangible parts.

Not GW price increases. Actual inflation in the UK. Everything has gone up by that amount on average. Doesn't mean the deals in the future will always be better, sometimes things go up above inflation (GW products usually do). But yeah if comparing with something that came out in the past, I'll always compare costs in real terms, not absolute terms. Especially if there has been significant inflation in that time.



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BrookM wrote:
Yes, can we just move on or take this discussion to a dedicated topic of its own? Cheers!

Sure thing.

Is this pre-order this week are we expecting?

For the starter set? Yes, as it was in Sunday's article, it should be up for pre-order on Saturday morning.

Im tempted to pick up the Kill Team starter but it will probably be 3 editions behind by the time I get to play it.

Do the Marines come with alternative heads?

Memnoch wrote:
Im tempted to pick up the Kill Team starter but it will probably be 3 editions behind by the time I get to play it.

Do the Marines come with alternative heads?

Assuming they are the same sprues as the blind box versions, both imperial and death guard marines have the option of helmets or bare heads for each figure.
Perhaps not the Death guard sorcerer.

 Tastyfish wrote:

Memnoch wrote:
Im tempted to pick up the Kill Team starter but it will probably be 3 editions behind by the time I get to play it.

Do the Marines come with alternative heads?

Assuming they are the same sprues as the blind box versions, both imperial and death guard marines have the option of helmets or bare heads for each figure.
Perhaps not the Death guard sorcerer.

Fair question, but my plan is to build the SM half with Mk VII, Devastator and beaky helmets from my Blood Angels bits box, then paint the squad up as Flesh Tearers, for a post-Devastation of Baal Kill Team.

For the Plague Marine half, I’ll just gross out on contrast paints and have some fun. Then use the set to draw my non- Warhammer friends into rolling some dice and pushing some models around.

Win-Win.

I am really tempted to get the new starter so I could make the meme "Bad Dragon" chapter minis and just sell the nurgle marines. Would save some € for not having to buy phobos team and get more tokens.

So I don't know if this already dropped, but it was new to me:
The MDF terrain is not printed itself, it has a high-gloss print glued on top of the MDF.
This makes it even worse imo, not on par with other pre-coloured MDF on the market or pushing into the market like the Trolltrader KS.

I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?

I see this as just GW offering folks the opportunity to stock up on limited run models on the low-low (cutting off scalpers in the process). That terrain could easily be DIYed in an afternoon from a bunch of empty cereal boxes..

Thats the approach I'd take, Tauist.

While it is nice that they've embraced soop rules, we've not seen anything interesting on that front between a launch box, two new teams and a starter set. If its a sign of things to come - or lack thereof - then I'd much rather they release a new 40K Quest game instead.

 tauist wrote:
I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?

Except you're missing terrain and a team to play against. If you already have both those or just play at clubs then you're not the audience. But it's still 90% of games get played at home or something isn't it?

deano2099 wrote:

 tauist wrote:
I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?

Except you're missing terrain and a team to play against. If you already have both those or just play at clubs then you're not the audience. But it's still 90% of games get played at home or something isn't it?

Yeah exactly. There's going to be an audience that want to play KT against people who won't really want to drop £40 on a personal kill team, let alone assemble & paint it. The goal here is a self-contained set to sell to someone who assembles all the models, learns the rules, then plays a friend or family member with little knowledge of Warhammer.

If you read Dakka Dakka you're not really the target customer for this box.

 tauist wrote:
I havent commented on the starter earlier, but kind of feel it misses the mark. Now that KT24 is effectively "free" in the sense that you have all the team rules and core rules for free, plus you have the app, why would anyone even bother with the starter? Wouldn't you be better off just buying a bespoke team kit and you're off to the races?

I see this as just GW offering folks the opportunity to stock up on limited run models on the low-low (cutting off scalpers in the process). That terrain could easily be DIYed in an afternoon from a bunch of empty cereal boxes..

If you think a brand new player wants to be cutting up cereal boxes you've truly lost the plot.

Well it's selling very well in Aus straight out the gate.

Looks like a pretty good way to get the figures for either team as opposed to buying that team separately.

It cuts across a few groups. It's obviously a good set for those entirely new that want to start playing as quickly as possible.
It's also a good set for those who just like cool GW models as it gives a way to get the Heroes series that were hard to get at the time.
And for Kill Team players it gives them the custom Death Guard team they've been requesting since the start of the last edition.

The only place it doesn't really do well is for existing 40K players who want to start Kill Team.

Honestly, it looks fine, I don't understand the criticisms:



It's a product for an average board gamer/ family gamer who is not into hobby stuff and wants to play the game not to spend a lot of time cutting cereal boxes or painting walls or even miniatures (and have the end result look crappy as hell anyway).

It looks like a perfect entry product for such a customer.

From the preorder page, looks like it was exactly what we were thinking:

"The whole box has been designed to be built and ready for play in as little as 30 minutes."