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Honestly in any plausible zombie outbreak scenario, the most dangerous things you are going to face out there are the other uninfected people trying to take everything you have for themselves.

THAT's what is going to sneak in and kill you in your sleep, not the ninja zombies of the movies that seem to be able to be in place for every possible jumpscare. Zombies are easy to outmaneuver, but complete societal brakedown is most definitely NOT.

It's fun and all to imagine putting on my chainmaile and using my weapons to protect my family, but I am in America. Chainmaile won't protect me much against a bunch of a-holes in a truck with AR-15's. American society would go full-Purge, and zombies would only kill you when you are preoccupied with raiders.

I hate to be the pessimist, but defending against and stopping a zombpocalypse would require un-heard of levels of societal teamwork.

 AegisGrimm wrote:


I hate to be the pessimist, but defending against and stopping a zombpocalypse would require un-heard of levels of societal teamwork.

One reason I am glad I am in a rural area. My neighbors are a little far away, but we get along and help each other when needed. With our tractor and its implements, I can put up fortifications if needed. I have a swamp/creek as one boundary to my property, and thick woods on two other sides. My house is a 1/4 mile driveway from the road.

One thing I will say is that COVID really showed that we are not prepared for a global pandemic. And your chances of survival depend entirely on having a competent government that isn't completely corrupt and only out for themselves.

The other problem COVID showed was that even when you told people exactly the issue and how to prevent it people ignored it. Containment is key to survival in a zombie apocalypse and we'd have far too many people saying "it was a joke, just weird hoodlums, zombies don't really exist" before it was too late to deal with. Think how many people would die because they were trying to take a selfie with a zombie.
Food shortages and mass panic will be more of an issue at first than the zombies.

How many police and soldiers would desert to try and get back to their families?

How many would die because someone sold them a zombie deterrent device blessed by angels or the latest AI science?

The way the zombie apocalypse succeeds is by the time all of the stupid people have made stupid decisions there's not much else left.

EDIT: I re-read this after I posted it and it comes off as a super downer it's not meant to be but people suck and are getting suckier.

One thing to remember with Covid is that the direct impact for many people was "bad cold for 3 days".

The long term implications of respiraty problems didn't directly affect everyone, so for many people the couldn't get wrapped up in the risk factor because to them the risk was "just common cold".

Throw on top missinformation; people who naturally avoid government advice anyway and those with poor education and you've certainly got a hot bed of problems.


That said most governments also didn't use their militaries. A zombie outbreak would have armed forces on the streets pretty fast. The direct impact is also VERY shocking and evident.
You don't just get a mild case of wanting to eat meat for 3 days and then get better.


Of course you'd 100% get pushback against the government because a fantasy style zombie outbreak would 100% be blamed on someone engineering it.

Also? Whilst just one in a now long line of Once In A Generation Events?

How many people that experienced the COVID Lockdowns had lived through a previous Lockdown? It’s easy to not be terribly good at something the first time.

Also the sort desperate for attention that might want to prove the zombie thing is a hoax? Zombie fodder right there. Yes they’ll swell the ranks - but how many GoPro “Journalist” Morons being devoured on their silly livestream do you think it would take to completely counteract their lies?

The biggest debate might actually be not about trying to convince people its real but rather trying to sort out if we should contain or kill zombies.

Since zombies oddly don't show much desire to eat each other (which honestly tends to only make full sense when in a fantasy setting when there's a necromancer/vampire controlling the spell and zombies); one could presumably herd them into containment areas.
Remember those aren't just dead bodies, those are living people who turned into zombies. Those are friends, family, mothers, fathers, children and all.

Zombie films nearly always dive for the universal foe and killing zombies. However one could conclude that a real world outbreak might well (at least in early stages) attempt to contain the outbreak in a bid to cure them. At least for your more shambling undead. RAGE style zombies that run, jump and are stronger/more mobile and active hunters might be a lot harder to contain but you can bet many would fight hard to have a containment approach over a kill approach.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Also? Whilst just one in a now long line of Once In A Generation Events?

How many people that experienced the COVID Lockdowns had lived through a previous Lockdown? It’s easy to not be terribly good at something the first time.

Also the sort desperate for attention that might want to prove the zombie thing is a hoax? Zombie fodder right there. Yes they’ll swell the ranks - but how many GoPro “Journalist” Morons being devoured on their silly livestream do you think it would take to completely counteract their lies?

Ooh, I have a book recommendation for this as well.

Check out Feed by Mira Grant. A rather enjoyable social media focussed idea set out in a world ravaged by a zombie outbreak. There is a sub-set of journalists called Irwins based on how they like to go in and poke the zombie masses with a stick for entertainment value.

 Flinty wrote:


Check out Feed by Mira Grant. A rather enjoyable social media focussed idea set out in a world ravaged by a zombie outbreak. There is a sub-set of journalists called Irwins based on how they like to go in and poke the zombie masses with a stick for entertainment value.

I read those a while back, I did enjoy them.

 Overread wrote:
The biggest debate might actually be not about trying to convince people its real but rather trying to sort out if we should contain or kill zombies.

Since zombies oddly don't show much desire to eat each other (which honestly tends to only make full sense when in a fantasy setting when there's a necromancer/vampire controlling the spell and zombies); one could presumably herd them into containment areas.
Remember those aren't just dead bodies, those are living people who turned into zombies. Those are friends, family, mothers, fathers, children and all.

Zombie films nearly always dive for the universal foe and killing zombies. However one could conclude that a real world outbreak might well (at least in early stages) attempt to contain the outbreak in a bid to cure them. At least for your more shambling undead. RAGE style zombies that run, jump and are stronger/more mobile and active hunters might be a lot harder to contain but you can bet many would fight hard to have a containment approach over a kill approach.

Take them out. 100% of the time. They’re a constant threat, and worse, an ambulatory vector for disease.

If, as we see in Walking Dead (and confirmed right at the end of WD, The World Beyond) the zombie virus also radically slows decay? What might other nasties do with that longer time infesting the same corpse?

Brain them, burn them. Not necessarily to the point of cremation, but certainly enough to destroy anything nasty growing on and in them.

It's easy to say just burn them - reality its harder.

You have to entirely de-humanise them first and the problem there is that zombies aren't "other peoples" they are your people.
They are up and around and moving and people will campaign and fight hard to protect their loved ones. Arguing that they are still alive, they just need proper medical treatment. That killing is destroying any chance of finding a cure.

That if a cure is found you've killed those who could have been saved.



Surely it would be better to corral, contain and fit them with straight jackets. Prevent them from hurting themselves and each other for their own good whilst studying and hoping to save them.

Not sure that would last for long.

Even in Walking Dead, the CDC pretty rapidly figures out They Are Dead. Only a tiny portion of the brain is reactivated.

Demonstrating that on TV wouldn’t take very long. Just inflict a normally fatal wound, and I think most of the population would get the message.

Of course, there are religious sensibilities. I’m not going to pretend I can talk about them with any authority. And honestly? Nor would I want to, especially on Dakka.

I would be interested if anyone can point me to informed discussion on that. Ideally a balanced discussion, and not one looking to bash faiths.

For instance? I’m aware of some faiths which require the burial to occur swiftly, as in within a day or two. How might someone of that faith interpret the zombie issue. Do they consider the person dead at all? Do they consider them possessed by a malevolent spirit?

Because depending where you are in the world, that is something that would need to be considered. Not just for wider containment, but how to get the populace on-side and that.

 Overread wrote:
Zombie films nearly always dive for the universal foe and killing zombies. However one could conclude that a real world outbreak might well (at least in early stages) attempt to contain the outbreak in a bid to cure them. At least for your more shambling undead. RAGE style zombies that run, jump and are stronger/more mobile and active hunters might be a lot harder to contain but you can bet many would fight hard to have a containment approach over a kill approach.

Well, that's the interesting part. Great visuals, jump scares and stuff.

Watching a bunch of staffers process reports from the field, wargame potential COAs and then hammer out an OPLAN is the sort of thing that only planning mega-nerds like me would find interesting.

Zombie outbreaks are the stuff of horror films, and are supposed to evoke visceral reactions in audiences, where emotion overwhelms logic. The tropes exist because they work (at least to a certain extent).

But once you get past the initial outbreak, things shift into mobilization schedules, arranging logistics, finding lodging, etc. and it becomes more of a math problem than anything else.

And there are lots of issues that people here aren't even thinking about, like bored troops. During the Flint water crisis, National Guard troops were called up for water distribution and it was found that they had to be rotated out after a while because the work was crushingly boring and soldiers being who they are, got into various soldierly kinds of trouble. (Oddly, Airmen do not have these problems, and seem capable of passing the time in non-destructive ways.)

The Covid response was absolutely awful, but it did show that military folks would respond to the call against an "invisible enemy."

As to the human threat, it's all about the local area. Again, we've seen this play out many times with disasters such as hurricanes, tornado outbreaks, floods, etc. If the local community is cohesive, it pulls together and relationships actually get stronger. If it is not, things can get pretty bad.

In my area, the pandemic brought much more community involvement and the first Halloween after it passed turned into a city-wide block party, with people doing cookouts in the driveways. Your results may vary.

People REALLY need to read WWZ. Some of this theorycrafting is literally just the text of the novel.

Commissar von Toussaint wrote:

 Overread wrote:
Zombie films nearly always dive for the universal foe and killing zombies. However one could conclude that a real world outbreak might well (at least in early stages) attempt to contain the outbreak in a bid to cure them. At least for your more shambling undead. RAGE style zombies that run, jump and are stronger/more mobile and active hunters might be a lot harder to contain but you can bet many would fight hard to have a containment approach over a kill approach.

Well, that's the interesting part. Great visuals, jump scares and stuff.

Watching a bunch of staffers process reports from the field, wargame potential COAs and then hammer out an OPLAN is the sort of thing that only planning mega-nerds like me would find interesting.

Zombie outbreaks are the stuff of horror films, and are supposed to evoke visceral reactions in audiences, where emotion overwhelms logic. The tropes exist because they work (at least to a certain extent).

But once you get past the initial outbreak, things shift into mobilization schedules, arranging logistics, finding lodging, etc. and it becomes more of a math problem than anything else.

And there are lots of issues that people here aren't even thinking about, like bored troops. During the Flint water crisis, National Guard troops were called up for water distribution and it was found that they had to be rotated out after a while because the work was crushingly boring and soldiers being who they are, got into various soldierly kinds of trouble. (Oddly, Airmen do not have these problems, and seem capable of passing the time in non-destructive ways.)

The Covid response was absolutely awful, but it did show that military folks would respond to the call against an "invisible enemy."

As to the human threat, it's all about the local area. Again, we've seen this play out many times with disasters such as hurricanes, tornado outbreaks, floods, etc. If the local community is cohesive, it pulls together and relationships actually get stronger. If it is not, things can get pretty bad.

In my area, the pandemic brought much more community involvement and the first Halloween after it passed turned into a city-wide block party, with people doing cookouts in the driveways. Your results may vary.

That’s one of my favourite bits of Shaun of the Dead, right at the end everyone has just adapted to “meh, zombies”. It’s amazing how quickly human beings will adapt to a status quo.

Mild Threadomancy.

But something I think we’ve all potentially overlooked.

How many folk, should the Zombie Apocalypse occur, would think to snaffle vitamin tablets?

Now, on their own they’re not gonna keep you alive. Oh no. But, they would help you and yours survive off foods which don’t offer much beyond calories.

Multi-vitamin tablets, powders, capsules etc.

I mean, a thread about Zombies is appropriate for some mild threadomancy.

Vitamins etc are a good shout.

Though as I’m a thoughtful survivor? I don’t think I’d go snaffling any meds me and mine don’t need.

I mean, trade is one thing. Holding a pharmaceutical knife to the next person is quite another.

Just basic vitamin tablets, expanding possible sources of calories very nicely.

Also? Down the local garden centre, snaffle as many seed pouches as you can. That’s for the longer term things. And don’t forget your flowers. You’ll be wanting those to help provide a habitat for pollinators, and so help your own crop.

Also I dare say seed packets might hold reasonable trade value. Spesh is someone else overlooked such basics.

If general human presence drops and civic maintenance stops, there will be plenty of flowers for pollinators. Grasses and wildflowers will be coming through the pavement and tarmac in short order, and dandelions will have an absolute field day in parks and lawns until a bit more of a varied ecosystem builds up over a few years.

That’s true. Think I’d still want to deliberately plant some in the short term at least.

On my property, if I don't keep the trails clear, we get saplings growing like crazy. Our perimeter trail around the horse pastures gets raspberry vines and other weeds growing taller than me over the course of a single summer (ask me how I know). At least in rural areas, nature won't take years to take over...

Heck look at Chernobyl - loads of regrowth going on there!

You can see the same pattern in nature all over; as soon as you remove the human elements that prevent its establishment, nature takes root fast. The only times it doesn't are if the land is truly blasted to heck. A good many islands and such can be like that where the natural wooded growth was cut down generations ago and the soils then farmed and grazed so that they are thin and poor condition. Add in the windswept nature of those islands and recovery can be a lot slower

As with so many other areas, people want to game out the tactical elements when the core of the problem is logistics.

Zombies have to hit the sweet spot where the spread can be stopped, but it has to spread enough to be dangerous.

Usually, this requires a plot device which almost always includes terrible decision-making and improbable outcomes. I think of the iconic image of The Walking Dead where cars are piled up on only one side of the highway. In reality, the authorities will route all lanes in the same direction if there is sufficient need, like a mass evacuation. If tanks are downtown, both sides of the highway are open.

Civil defense planners have a shockingly large amount of contingencies up their sleeves, including zombie outbreaks.

Script writers? Not so much.

I could go for a show or film exploring that organised response.

Stick with the classic Romero style and infection vector. Show us things being figured out (do you need to be bitten to turn, or is it any recently deceased that get back up).

How do you contain? Do you just cap anyone refusing to be checked for bites? Do you simply seal off cities and wait for them to decay?

We see a glimpse of such things in Doomsday, where all of Scotland is sealed off to contain a plague. Including one guy getting hideously squished in the closing gate. And I guess Resident Evil 2, when they seal off Racoon City.

But to see the nitty gritty side of things. That might be a treat.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
I could go for a show or film exploring that organised response.

Stick with the classic Romero style and infection vector. Show us things being figured out (do you need to be bitten to turn, or is it any recently deceased that get back up).

How do you contain? Do you just cap anyone refusing to be checked for bites? Do you simply seal off cities and wait for them to decay?

We see a glimpse of such things in Doomsday, where all of Scotland is sealed off to contain a plague. Including one guy getting hideously squished in the closing gate. And I guess Resident Evil 2, when they seal off Racoon City.

But to see the nitty gritty side of things. That might be a treat.

They should make film out Dafoe's Journal of the Plague Year. It's got all that and more.

No one was completely sure how the plague spread, but they knew certain things worked. The Dutch merchants moved all their food upstairs, washed their stone floors with lye solution and stayed inside, living off their stockpiles. No deaths.

There were people who got it and survived, or were resistant, they they gathered the bodies up and kept things running. Outside the City, armed patrols roamed the countryside, shooting anyone who tried to cross the "plague line." All the roads were barricaded and guards would likewise shoot anyone who came close.

We need a movie like Contagion only what they are dealing with is a zombie outbreak.

Lot's of lab and board room decision making scenes.

I don't know about a movie, but something along the lines of a political thriller novel could be an interesting spin on it - not quite a World War Z sort of thing, but looking at what might go down behind the scenes during such an outbreak.

Literally just adapt Under a Graveyard Sky by John Ringo for a tv show/film.

While it isn't at the highest level of authorities it does give some insight into that level of thinking while mostly stopping at the level of world wide banking institution handling the breakdown of society.

Uh….what uh….what did he write about world wide banking institutions?

I’m just curious because John Ringo is also the name of a science fiction writer infamous for writing Watch on the Rhine, wherein the only way humanity could defeat alien invaders was to rejuvenate the Waffen SS. Weird, right?

 BobtheInquisitor wrote:
Uh….what uh….what did he write about world wide banking institutions?

I’m just curious because John Ringo is also the name of a science fiction writer infamous for writing Watch on the Rhine, wherein the only way humanity could defeat alien invaders was to rejuvenate the Waffen SS. Weird, right?

Yeah, he's got some weird streaks in his writing from time to time for sure. I used to think it might be a co-author thing since outside of that Rhine book I didn't get anything other Heinlein-esque vibes. But his most recent series that he solely wrote feel like he's sliding down or just bring out his full crazy. To the point where I'm not searching for his new releases or purchasing as them advance copies like I used to from Baen back in the day.

This series is actually pretty good though and doesn't have any of that crazy undertone. In this case the first 1/3 to 1/2 of the book is dedicated to the actual fall of civilization. I can't remember the time frame but I wanna say it was somewhere around 4 months from bugout text to sailing out of a burning NY. The big banking institutions were really just their end of the world planning and handling on keeping the world moving as long as possible until they pull the plug as society collapses and they bug out.

Also I was incorrect. The name of the book is actually "Under a Grave Yard Sky" as the series is Black Tide Rising which I've updated the post with. He's created an entire pandemic/zombie universe that's become an author sandbox with similar results of the Flint 1632 series. Some are good and some are bad.

People have made some pretty good points on why a zombie outbreak wouldn't happen. Just to play devil's advocate here, I think there are some good reasons why it could spread.

1. The segment of the population where ignorance and denial meet. These are the people that will continue to think this is some sort of government psy-op or conspiracy, even when zombies are seen in their area. If they get bit, they will NOT tell anyone, even those trying to help them. I've seen this before in real life. I saw someone that refused to leave their home, in a flood plane, 1/8 mile from a river, 2-feet above river crest, after 36 hours of torrential downpour. The Sheriff literally dragged them out a couple hours before the home got pulled off the foundation. Or, the sister of a high school friend: She and her husband bought a swanky home on a mile-wide island (max elevation 10 feet above sea level) in Virginia. Totally shocked when a Hurricane destroyed their home.

2. The Yee-Haw group. This is the polar opposite of group 1, but just as bad. Sure, sure, these guys will be of some help early on capping zombies left and right. It doesn't take them long before they start to get cocky about it though. Doing things for sport will soon lead to people wanting bragging rights. This will lead to more and more foolish behavior, including herding zombies.

3. The "rules and suggestions don't apply to me" group. They expect everyone else to hunker down, not travel, etc., but not them. And I'm sorry, but I'm going to have to lump in the people that have about 2-meals (by choice) in their pantry at any given time.

4. Running from zombies, not as easy as you think. Humans evolved to be persistence hunters. We weren't faster, tougher, or better armed than anything we hunted. We walked them to exhaustion and then killed them when they couldn't fight back. With zombies having infinite stamina the shoe is on the other foot. Unless your plan is to hopscotch between defendable positions, or lose all the zombies (without running into a new group) they WILL eventually catch you.