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Wayniac wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
great one of my favorite characters is legends, making him a non-starter. still getting him but its disappointing

What was moved to Legends?

Caiphas Cain's model is Legends. And people still don't seem to understand Legends just means "not for tournaments" and not "can not use ever".

Yeah. I don't understand why everybody immediately dismiss his models as soon as they get to Legends. heck, I'm going to run legends rules in my next game probably ( a battle Fortress or grot tanks )

 Mrangryork wrote:

Wayniac wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
great one of my favorite characters is legends, making him a non-starter. still getting him but its disappointing

What was moved to Legends?

Caiphas Cain's model is Legends. And people still don't seem to understand Legends just means "not for tournaments" and not "can not use ever".

Yeah. I don't understand why everybody immediately dismiss his models as soon as they get to Legends. heck, I'm going to run legends rules in my next game probably ( a battle Fortress or grot tanks )

A lot of local areas only play games following tournament rules, so for people in those areas, being Legends is automatically a non-starter.

Most pick up games, especially organized through discord, follow consistent rules, typically tournaments.
Legends might aswell not be a thing for how much it matters.
And no one wants to be the guy in the discord asking for legends game because they get turned down

This has been said so many times, legends are officially ok in pick up games. He state clearly they aren’t for tournaments, fine everywhere else. So if the people you play don’t use legends that’s their house rule and on them not anything to do with gw. It’s like complaining that they released 11th eduction rules but your area only plays 3rd edition.

Legends are even going on the app this editions. And all black library models are legends. So this is basically moaning that they have released a model with official rules for a new model for free, for use in all games but tournaments. But your mates won’t let you use it. Who’s at fault there?

Andykp wrote:
This has been said so many times, legends are officially ok in pick up games. He state clearly they aren’t for tournaments, fine everywhere else. So if the people you play don’t use legends that’s their house rule and on them not anything to do with gw. It’s like complaining that they released 11th eduction rules but your area only plays 3rd edition.

Legends are even going on the app this editions. And all black library models are legends. So this is basically moaning that they have released a model with official rules for a new model for free, for use in all games but tournaments. But your mates won’t let you use it. Who’s at fault there?

1st up, not all BL models were legends - Valerian and Aleya plus Uriel Ventris are not legends (although Ventris has been unavailable to buy for about 5 minutes so we know where he's going on the next codex release).

Secondly, GW is at fault. You can't complain when they make a distinction between two things, and then people align with the distinction. Everyone I know is fine playing with legends, as they would rather play a game than turn one down. But they all don't like the low quality/not updated ever nature of legends, and they all tend to avoid buying anything legends related. I personally only buy models at risk of going to legends if I really like the model and am confident I'll get my moneys worth before it's rules go. I'm yet to meet a single person who defends things like the Kratos tank bait and switch.

Finally, a lot of players don't live in cities with multiple gaming clubs or FLGS on their doorstep. Travelling to events (always matched play all the time) makes up the majority of their games, legends may as well not exist to them.

 Platuan4th wrote:
A lot of local areas only play games following tournament rules, so for people in those areas, being Legends is automatically a non-starter.

That's somewhere between anecdotal evidence and an urban myth. Polls in various communities have shown that the overwhelming number of people have no issues with allowing legend rules as long as you have the model.

There's actually nothing in the core rules or the event pack about Legends datasheets that I can find. We all know what the conventions are (no balance updates, so not allowed for tournaments) but since there's no "mustering an army" section or "matched play" section in the rulebook who knows what might happen.

Muster rules are in the app now (along with a brief summary on the new MFM page), but they don't mention Legends.

I assume that the Legends restriction will eventually be added to the Event Companion documents, meaning that by default they are still allowed for other games.

I'm positive they will still be, yeah. I do personally share the concern in that back when I regularly played club games of 40k, most of the regulars were always practicing for their next event and wouldn't have necessarily wanted to play against Legends (although most of the really good ones wouldn't have cared at all, it was more about practicing *their* army than worrying too much about yours). So it is kind of limiting.

 Jidmah wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
A lot of local areas only play games following tournament rules, so for people in those areas, being Legends is automatically a non-starter.

That's somewhere between anecdotal evidence and an urban myth. Polls in various communities have shown that the overwhelming number of people have no issues with allowing legend rules as long as you have the model.

What people say and what they actually do are different things. Most people will say they are fine playing against legends, then....dont when its time to game.
People follow tournament rules because its a well known easy to pick up and know.

Usually its just the reality that players own way more models than they have the opportunity to field as is. My two favorite Legends models are probably Kill Team Cassius and my Leviathan but at the moment I'm not even getting enough table time with my Redemptor or Spectrus Kill Teams. I just don't need to dip that far in the well.

Truthfully though, I generally see a "yes, that was always allowed" sort of reaction when someone steps across the invisible line they drew for themselves and tosses an oddity in. It's more a law of convenience that you should feel free to ignore if there's something you really want to make sure gets on the table.

 hotsauceman1 wrote:
Most pick up games, especially organized through discord, follow consistent rules, typically tournaments.
Legends might aswell not be a thing for how much it matters.
And no one wants to be the guy in the discord asking for legends game because they get turned down

I never ask for my opponents permission to use the rules of the game.
I dont have to.
Doing so would be as stupid as asking if I could use Deepstrike or something....
People say "Legends arent allowed in Tournaments."
My response is "And I'm not playing in a tournament, am I?"

Infact, if my opponents want to play games with Tournament restrictions?
THEY should be asking me if thats ok.

And if me using Legends units is a deal breaker and the other guy refuses to play?
Well, thats his problem & I hope he has a nice drive/bus ride home...

I play with people who have a very competitive mindset. Many of them participate in tournaments (as teams). They're exactly the kind of players I think most people here would absolutely hate playing against : forget the lore, forget themed armies. Say hello to the ruthless exploitation of every rule the game allows and the dirtiest lists they can find.

Despite that, it has never, and I mean NEVER, crossed their minds to "ban" Legends models when we play together. You want to bring a Legends model ? Sure, why not ? You're only nerfing your own list, but that's your funeral, buddy.

From my personal experience, the only people I've ever encountered that wanted to apply tournaments rules to non-tournament games were "wannabe competitive" players who are really just local "champions" at their local game store.

Selfcontrol wrote:
I play with people who have a very competitive mindset. Many of them participate in tournaments (as teams). They're exactly the kind of players I think most people here would absolutely hate playing against : forget the lore, forget themed armies. Say hello to the ruthless exploitation of every rule the game allows and the dirtiest lists they can find.

Despite that, it has never, and I mean NEVER, crossed their minds to "ban" Legends models when we play together. You want to bring a Legends model ? Sure, why not ? You're only nerfing your own list, but that's your funeral, buddy.

From my personal experience, the only people I've ever encountered that wanted to apply tournaments rules to non-tournament games were "wannabe competitive" players who are really just local "champions" at their local game store.

My problem with legends isn't people banning them, as you said I never saw anybody complaining about having to play against legends units.
The problem is GW. And I'm also not talking about "you can't use them in official tournament" I'm talking about every legends model being on a countdown until GW decides to completely remove it instead of releasing new legends rules for a future edition. It's not going to be this edition, its probably not going to be the next one but any legends model has a 95% chance to just be removed sometime in the future. (and a 5% chance to actually get a refresh and join the normal lists again)
Of course a normal unit could also be dropped but its way more unlikely for GW to drop a normal unit than a legends unit

Tbh I wouldn't even like risking having someone be weird about me using Legends, but that's more of a "me" problem.

 Matrindur wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
I play with people who have a very competitive mindset. Many of them participate in tournaments (as teams). They're exactly the kind of players I think most people here would absolutely hate playing against : forget the lore, forget themed armies. Say hello to the ruthless exploitation of every rule the game allows and the dirtiest lists they can find.

Despite that, it has never, and I mean NEVER, crossed their minds to "ban" Legends models when we play together. You want to bring a Legends model ? Sure, why not ? You're only nerfing your own list, but that's your funeral, buddy.

From my personal experience, the only people I've ever encountered that wanted to apply tournaments rules to non-tournament games were "wannabe competitive" players who are really just local "champions" at their local game store.

My problem with legends isn't people banning them, as you said I never saw anybody complaining about having to play against legends units.
The problem is GW. And I'm also not talking about "you can't use them in official tournament" I'm talking about every legends model being on a countdown until GW decides to completely remove it instead of releasing new legends rules for a future edition. It's not going to be this edition, its probably not going to be the next one but any legends model has a 95% chance to just be removed sometime in the future. (and a 5% chance to actually get a refresh and join the normal lists again)
Of course a normal unit could also be dropped but its way more unlikely for GW to drop a normal unit than a legends unit

I'm not going to enjoy something now because I might not be able to enjoy it 6 years from now is a good way to not enjoy things. This isn't just a GW thing or even a minis thing. Just kind of the reality of time.

The majority of legends models can often still be run as something similar in future editions.

I still use my Dimachaeron as a Norn, and there's no shortage of Commissar datasheet options for Gaunt.

 LunarSol wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
I play with people who have a very competitive mindset. Many of them participate in tournaments (as teams). They're exactly the kind of players I think most people here would absolutely hate playing against : forget the lore, forget themed armies. Say hello to the ruthless exploitation of every rule the game allows and the dirtiest lists they can find.

Despite that, it has never, and I mean NEVER, crossed their minds to "ban" Legends models when we play together. You want to bring a Legends model ? Sure, why not ? You're only nerfing your own list, but that's your funeral, buddy.

From my personal experience, the only people I've ever encountered that wanted to apply tournaments rules to non-tournament games were "wannabe competitive" players who are really just local "champions" at their local game store.

My problem with legends isn't people banning them, as you said I never saw anybody complaining about having to play against legends units.
The problem is GW. And I'm also not talking about "you can't use them in official tournament" I'm talking about every legends model being on a countdown until GW decides to completely remove it instead of releasing new legends rules for a future edition. It's not going to be this edition, its probably not going to be the next one but any legends model has a 95% chance to just be removed sometime in the future. (and a 5% chance to actually get a refresh and join the normal lists again)
Of course a normal unit could also be dropped but its way more unlikely for GW to drop a normal unit than a legends unit

I'm not going to enjoy something now because I might not be able to enjoy it 6 years from now is a good way to not enjoy things. This isn't just a GW thing or even a minis thing. Just kind of the reality of time.

I also didn't say I'm not enjoying them. I still use them and also still build and paint models that are no longer supported but I still don't like it when something gets added to legends since I know that I will only be able to enjoy it for a limited time now

Live for the moment dude! Life’s to short.

 Matrindur wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
I play with people who have a very competitive mindset. Many of them participate in tournaments (as teams). They're exactly the kind of players I think most people here would absolutely hate playing against : forget the lore, forget themed armies. Say hello to the ruthless exploitation of every rule the game allows and the dirtiest lists they can find.

Despite that, it has never, and I mean NEVER, crossed their minds to "ban" Legends models when we play together. You want to bring a Legends model ? Sure, why not ? You're only nerfing your own list, but that's your funeral, buddy.

From my personal experience, the only people I've ever encountered that wanted to apply tournaments rules to non-tournament games were "wannabe competitive" players who are really just local "champions" at their local game store.

My problem with legends isn't people banning them, as you said I never saw anybody complaining about having to play against legends units.
The problem is GW. And I'm also not talking about "you can't use them in official tournament" I'm talking about every legends model being on a countdown until GW decides to completely remove it instead of releasing new legends rules for a future edition. It's not going to be this edition, its probably not going to be the next one but any legends model has a 95% chance to just be removed sometime in the future. (and a 5% chance to actually get a refresh and join the normal lists again)
Of course a normal unit could also be dropped but its way more unlikely for GW to drop a normal unit than a legends unit

I'm not going to enjoy something now because I might not be able to enjoy it 6 years from now is a good way to not enjoy things. This isn't just a GW thing or even a minis thing. Just kind of the reality of time.

I also didn't say I'm not enjoying them. I still use them and also still build and paint models that are no longer supported but I still don't like it when something gets added to legends since I know that I will only be able to enjoy it for a limited time now

I feel your pain. I have a Land Raider Terminus Ultra that still hasn't seen tabletop play. Not to mention an Imperial Space Marine that's been fielded once.

 cuda1179 wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

 LunarSol wrote:

 Matrindur wrote:

Selfcontrol wrote:
I play with people who have a very competitive mindset. Many of them participate in tournaments (as teams). They're exactly the kind of players I think most people here would absolutely hate playing against : forget the lore, forget themed armies. Say hello to the ruthless exploitation of every rule the game allows and the dirtiest lists they can find.

Despite that, it has never, and I mean NEVER, crossed their minds to "ban" Legends models when we play together. You want to bring a Legends model ? Sure, why not ? You're only nerfing your own list, but that's your funeral, buddy.

From my personal experience, the only people I've ever encountered that wanted to apply tournaments rules to non-tournament games were "wannabe competitive" players who are really just local "champions" at their local game store.

My problem with legends isn't people banning them, as you said I never saw anybody complaining about having to play against legends units.
The problem is GW. And I'm also not talking about "you can't use them in official tournament" I'm talking about every legends model being on a countdown until GW decides to completely remove it instead of releasing new legends rules for a future edition. It's not going to be this edition, its probably not going to be the next one but any legends model has a 95% chance to just be removed sometime in the future. (and a 5% chance to actually get a refresh and join the normal lists again)
Of course a normal unit could also be dropped but its way more unlikely for GW to drop a normal unit than a legends unit

I'm not going to enjoy something now because I might not be able to enjoy it 6 years from now is a good way to not enjoy things. This isn't just a GW thing or even a minis thing. Just kind of the reality of time.

I also didn't say I'm not enjoying them. I still use them and also still build and paint models that are no longer supported but I still don't like it when something gets added to legends since I know that I will only be able to enjoy it for a limited time now

I feel your pain. I have a Land Raider Terminus Ultra that still hasn't seen tabletop play. Not to mention an Imperial Space Marine that's been fielded once.

Well, what are you waiting for?

 hotsauceman1 wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:

 Platuan4th wrote:
A lot of local areas only play games following tournament rules, so for people in those areas, being Legends is automatically a non-starter.

That's somewhere between anecdotal evidence and an urban myth. Polls in various communities have shown that the overwhelming number of people have no issues with allowing legend rules as long as you have the model.

What people say and what they actually do are different things. Most people will say they are fine playing against legends, then....dont when its time to game.
People follow tournament rules because its a well known easy to pick up and know.

Except there would be regular reports of people banning legends if that would actually be happening. There would be youtube videos about why it's ok or not ok. However, despite the topic being easy engagement bait for any 40k related channel, it's somehow never a point of discussion.

The only place where it regularly comes up is in the dakkadakka bubble. This bubble has a large chunk of people who don't actually play the current edition regularly. Instead vent their frustration about the game moving further and further away from their ideal of a wargame. And obviously, legends is part of that.

Unless you are playing in a competitive event or an organized league, the only reason for an opponent to reject legends is toxicity.

 Jidmah wrote:
The only place where it regularly comes up is in the dakkadakka bubble. This bubble has a large chunk of people who don't actually play the current edition regularly. Instead vent their frustration about the game moving further and further away from their ideal of a wargame. And obviously, legends is part of that

I will just chime in and say that this is not remotely true. Reddit is full of people who also stay away from Legends, citing hostile local culture to it.

At this point I am barely a 40k player any more so I've no personal anecdotes to add that are new enough to relevant. But it's absolutely not just a dakkadakka quirk.

There are tons of videos about Legends on youtube discussing the pros and cons, it's not just a discussion forum thing but the nature of discussion forums is that controversial topics generate a lot of discussion that is then visible forever. So I don't think it's wise to try and pigeonhole dakka/reddit users using the forum posts. If you really want to know what people who don't use dakka think of Legends go to your local stores and ask some people, that would be a worthy exercise. We may learn something, we may not. We could also run a poll here on whether people still play, that might be interesting.

 Jidmah wrote:

Except there would be regular reports of people banning legends if that would actually be happening. There would be youtube videos about why it's ok or not ok. However, despite the topic being easy engagement bait for any 40k related channel, it's somehow never a point of discussion.

Was routinely not allowed in my old GW, but that was down to the then manager. At the club when 40k was being played it was by people looking to practice for a tournament so they only wanted tourney lists. That ruled out legends. They weren't saying no to legends, they just would chose someone else to play.

 Platuan4th wrote:

A lot of local areas only play games following tournament rules, so for people in those areas, being Legends is automatically a non-starter.

At my gamestore, this. 100%. People are always tournament prepping.

With my buddies, it's all good. However, I play at my gamestore 4x more than with my buddies.

A brand new model of a popular character going straight to Legends is bs.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jidmah wrote:

That's somewhere between anecdotal evidence and an urban myth.

Completely irrelevant statement to me since it's MY anecdote.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:


I feel your pain. I have a Land Raider Terminus Ultra that still hasn't seen tabletop play. Not to mention an Imperial Space Marine that's been fielded once.

I got to play with it in an Apoc game once back in 5th edition. *Sad Land Raider Noises.*

 Jidmah wrote:
Except there would be regular reports of people banning legends if that would actually be happening. There would be youtube videos about why it's ok or not ok. However, despite the topic being easy engagement bait for any 40k related channel, it's somehow never a point of discussion.

What a weird thing to assert, when a casual Youtube search for '40k legends' will give you lots of channels, both big and small, talking about Legends units and specifically bemoaning that their playability is limited.

Here's a video over 100,000 views from Arbitor Ian (250K subs) talking about it, including specifically the issue of players forbidding Legends. Here's a video from a much smaller channel with almost as many views talking about it. Here's a stream from Mordian Glory talking about it. Here's a small channel calling for hobbyists to allow Legends. There are plenty more.

Next up we can go to Reddit or any of the Facebook groups and start plucking anecdotes of people reporting that their local shop doesn't play with Legends. I've seen them, they're out there, I'll add mine to the mix as a couple of the shops around me have followed tournament guidelines for pick-up games since 8th. I only use my Legends stuff at explicitly narrative events or with my more casual gaming group.

As always, though, my issue with Legends is less that it's forbidden from play and more that it's a dumping ground for half-baked rules that often don't interact well with the rest of the army. It's one thing to be permitted to field a unit, it's another for it to feel worth fielding to begin with.

I think maybe legends deserves its own thread now?

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Jidmah wrote:
The only place where it regularly comes up is in the dakkadakka bubble. This bubble has a large chunk of people who don't actually play the current edition regularly. Instead vent their frustration about the game moving further and further away from their ideal of a wargame. And obviously, legends is part of that

I will just chime in and say that this is not remotely true. Reddit is full of people who also stay away from Legends, citing hostile local culture to it.

I will also chime in and say the official GW social media accounts comment threads on the Cain rules were almost nothing but "Why Legends? Will never get to use him because no one allows them where I play" also disproves Jidmah's post.

Yet again, that is the communities problem, not GWs. The rules are clear. People, making house rules isn’t the companies fault. So GW releasing a new model straight to legends is fine, your mates won’t let you use it, it’s your mates are the problem.