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Ok. Since Alpharius suggested that we start up a new thread, I figured I'd take the initiative (especially since I've got a question anyway).

When I get home for spring break, my friend and I are going to try our first "real" game of Infinity. This will be the first game we play with a main intention other than learning the ruleset, and I'd like it to be a good (and, most of all, fair) one. He'll be running Haqqislam, but I don't know his list. Tell me what you think of this:

Ko Dali Lt- 35(+1)
Tiger Soldier (Paramedic)- 31 (0)
Tiger Soldier (Boarding Shotgun)- 26 (0)
Tiger Soldier (HMG)- 35 (1.5)
Celestial Guard (Kuang Shi Control Device)- 13 (0.5)
Zhanshi (Combi-Rifle)- 11 (0)
Zhanshi (Combi-Rifle)- 11 (0)
Zhanshi (Combi-Rifle)- 11 (0)
Domaru (Chain Rifle, Exp CCW)- 35 (0)
Shang Ji (Combi-Rifle + Light Flamethrower)- 42 (0)

Total Cost: 250 (2)

I know I'm light on heavy weapons, but Haqqislam aren't really renowned for their HI or TAGs, so I'm not too concerned. Should I be? How does the list look?


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Also, I found this "Roster Creator" a while back. I'm not sure if you all have seen it yet.

http://www.telefonica.net/web2/fusionweb/infinity/index.html

Doesn't have rules for Human Sphere yet, but it's helpful when you want to put together a list.

Paladin Blake wrote:When I get home for spring break, my friend and I are going to try our first "real" game of Infinity. This will be the first game we play with a main intention other than learning the ruleset, and I'd like it to be a good (and, most of all, fair) one. He'll be running Haqqislam, but I don't know his list. Tell me what you think of this:

Ko Dali Lt- 35(+1)
Tiger Soldier (Paramedic)- 31 (0)
Tiger Soldier (Boarding Shotgun)- 26 (0)
Tiger Soldier (HMG)- 35 (1.5)
Celestial Guard (Kuang Shi Control Device)- 13 (0.5)
Zhanshi (Combi-Rifle)- 11 (0)
Zhanshi (Combi-Rifle)- 11 (0)
Zhanshi (Combi-Rifle)- 11 (0)
Domaru (Chain Rifle, Exp CCW)- 35 (0)
Shang Ji (Combi-Rifle + Light Flamethrower)- 42 (0)

Total Cost: 250 (2)

Overall a decent first list. Tiger Soldiers and their "AD: Combat Drop" makes them formidable against just about any unit, because it is nearly impossible to hide from them. Unlike 40K, Tiger Soldiers can drop in anywhere on the table and activate immediately! Personally, I think they are awesome, but for some odd reason, I seem to have terrible luck with them. They are fairly fragile, and my flamers never seem to work with them. In one game alone, I managed to force 5 armor saves with one Tiger Soldier, and my opponent made all his saved and his ARO took out my Tiger Soldier even though I spent 3-4 orders shooting with him. This goes back to the dice thing I mentioned in one of my previous posts.

Another limitation of running so many Tiger Soldiers is if you plan to "AD:Combat Drop" them in then they will not start on the table... Which will lead to my first "lesson" on this thread:

***
ORDERS:
At the beginning of your turn, count the number of "Regular" units you have on the board, and each model on the board will contribute a single order to the squad's order pool. Maximum squad size is 10 units. Hence it is impossible to have more than 10 order per squad.

Each order consists of either two "short orders" or one "long" order. There are two types of "short orders". They are:

1. Short-Movement
2. Short-Action

A single order can contain a combination of the following: One short-move and one short action, two short-moves, or one long-order. (I will explain the short and long options in a future post)
***

Back to my original point. Noticed that I said "count the number of "Regular" units you have on the board" Which means that any models that are off the table will not contribute to your order pool. Based on your list, at the start of your game, you can only have a maximum of 6 orders for your entire army. Even though you paid for 10 models.

I would imagine that you will probably have Ko Dali as your lientenant because of her Tactical Jump ability, which means that you must drop her in on the first turn. Don't get me wrong, she is very powerful, but it is generally bad juju to broadcast who your Lieutenant is to your opponent, because any decent player will immediately go after her ... If she is "KO'ed", then we have bad news, because now you have a (lesson):

***
LOSS OF LIEUTENANT:
If you do not have a Lieutenant on the board, you may immediate spend two orders to promote another model to the Lieutenant status. The additional bad news is that if you start your turn without a Lieutenant, then the maximum orders you can have for your entire army is 2. That's right, if you start the game with 10 models, and your Lieutenant is accidentally taken down first, then at the start of your turn first turn, you will only have TWO (2) orders for your entire army... If you spend the 2 orders to promote another model to a Lieutenant, you have effectively lost a turn...
***
Needless to say, that is very, very bad news. Airborne Deployment (AD) is very powerful, but you really need to defend it with a hacker. A successful AD hack will force all your AD troops to perform an emergency jump and force them to deploy immediately with a PH penalty of -9!!! (I will go into depths about "Hacking" at future date.)

I hope this brief list critique gives you guys some insights on how "tactically" rich Infinity is compared to a lot of other games. Variety is far more effective then specialization. I do like the Tiger Soldier with the HMG though... That's one brutal combination!

I'll add an 'agrees' to what Salisar said and also add some cautionary stuff...

Less Orders

With the Tiger Soldiers not having their orders contributed to the pool right away, taking three orders from your pool (and also probably requiring you to spend some more orders getting them back in position if you scatter by blowing your Physique test) you may find yourself somewhat immobile during the first turn or so.

I like AD troops, but I usually limit myself to two.

Doctors and Medics

Taking the Tiger Para is also potentially asking for your doctor to get smashed by ARO's during deployment if he scatters. His physique isn't that high dude... if he blows out into the open you may find him pumped full of holes.

I'd recommend the Zhanshi Yisheng as a full Doctor for your list. You'll usually know where you're going to take tons of fire so just put him with your main line of offense. Remember if your doctor goes down all unconscious models skip right to dead!

Celestial Guard?

Why are you taking him if you're not taking any Kuang Shi?

Heavy Infantry

You've got a ton of options here... and they're some of the best in the game! The Hsien and Shang Ji are both great for their points. Getting a MultiSpectral Visor into your list is going to be a big asset if you run into TO and CH troops. Also, getting a multi-rifle in there or a grenade launcher can also be handy for the parabolic fire or some AP or DA rounds.

Finally; check out this free online army-builder called Infinity Pool. It has a Forum option for posting lists.

The Celestial Guard is there for his Light Smoke Grenade Launcher. I like the tactical flexibility that smoke offers, and it's only .5 SWC more than a regular Celestial Guard.

Alright. New list. I don't know how to work in a MULTI rifle without going over in points, but it's definitely more diverse. If I really need to make changes, I guess I'd rather drop the Hsien or Celestial Guard hacker first.

Zhanshi Yisheng- 15(0)
Celestial Guard (Kuang Shi Control Device)- 13(0.5)
Celestial Guard Hacker- 25(0.5)
Tiger Soldier Paramedic- 31(0)
Tiger Soldier (HMG)- 35(1.5)
Hsien (HMG)- 61(2)
Shang Ji Lt.- 42(0)
Guilang (Combi-rifle)- 25(0)

Is having redundancy with the Paramedic/Yisheng a bad thing? I figure if one gets shot, I'll still have a chance to keep some people alive, but is keeping the Paramedic a waste of points? Cutting down the number of Tiger Soldiers, I agree, is a good idea. I think I had too much of a "all my eggs in one basket" sorta thing going on.

Or you could take two Chain Rife-toting Monks with Smoke Grenades for 5pts each. Grenades are almost more accurate than GL's (though they don't have the range) as they use PH instead of BS for rolls to hit... and as Yu Jing you have kinda crap BS. PLus you get Chain Rifles that can be very handy for clearing mines, etc.

I've really go to dig into the rules and then find a fellow INFINITY player in my area!

I'm getting seriously stoked up by all this good INFINITY talk!

Honestly man; don't wait for folks to get in. Just get a second starter and SHOE people the game. Honestly, it's the only thig that worked for me. The other half is to play missions and have an appropriate amount of scenery. Otherwise folks will get turned off the mechanics.

Good luck man.

Alrighty, then. I've got a final(ish) list. Thanks for the suggestions; I usually try to avoid impetuous models, but 3 smoke grenades is better than one smoke launcher...

Zhanshi Yisheng- 15(0)
Celestial Guard Hacker- 25(0.5)
Tiger Soldier Paramedic- 31(0)
Tiger Soldier (HMG)- 35(1.5)
Hsien (HMG)- 61(2)
Shang Ji Lt.- 42(0)
Guilang (Combi-rifle)- 25(0)
Shaolin Monk (Chain Rifle) x3- 15(0)
Total- 249(4)

That looks pretty tight dude.

Now go get some games on, and watch out for TO camp and Tags!

OMFG those roster creator are amazing!!! Specially the one in flash. You can export the list to the clipboard and paste it in word, excel...

I'm loving this thread so much!

Salisar - how about doing "Suppression Fire" next?

The example in the book isn't making sense to me...

That's nice and simple.

Suppression Fire is a long skill, so it needs to consume a whole order.

Place the 'Suppression Fire' marker anywhere in LOS of the model performing the order, with the line in the middile being able to be drawn to some part of the acting model's base.

Any enemy models that generate an ARO while in the LOS 'corridor' created by the marker (as wide as the template) will be able to be fired upon at full Burst. That means HMG's performing this action would get to roll 4 dice in ARO instead of just 1... combi-rifles would get 3, etc.

This is lost if the model performs any action besides Shooting in ARO (dodge, move, etc.).

Its a great way to shut down corridors of advance during your opponent's turn... as unless you're a TAG or some other high armour model you're not going to want to take the chance to move through that much shooting.


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I should note that if you perform this skill in LOS of an enemy model they'll get to ARO you with a normal roll.

Example: My fusilier performs this skill in LOS of a Zhanshi. The Zhanshi shoots him with a normal roll, which hits and causes a Damage roll which the Fusilier passes. Now if that fusilier passes his Guts check... he'll retain his Suppression Fire token. If he fails it though and makes a dodge towards cover or goes prone... he'll lose the counter as he's performing an action besides Shooting.

Make sense?

I *think* so.

So 'Suppression Fire' is an "order" given to a model on your side in your turn, but is only 'used' during an ARO during the enemy's turn?

Yup. It basically gives the acting model a limited version of the Total Reaction skill (which is the same effect, full Burst in ARO) that only effects the 'corridor' created by the template.

Alpharius wrote:I *think* so.

So 'Suppression Fire' is an "order" given to a model on your side in your turn, but is only 'used' during an ARO during the enemy's turn?

I always like "real life" examples, because it is easier to relate to...

You decide to leave a rear guard to watch the back of your squad, so he hides behind some ruins and sets up Suppression Fire to cover a narrow alley. The Suppression Fire Zone extends indefinitely, until it hits a table edge or a terrain/cover. The rear guard brings up his rifle and provides suppression fire for the rest of his squad. Since the bullets are already flying down the suppression fire zone, any (friend or foe) model crossing the suppressed zone can be hit.

Please note that Suppression Fire only triggers against models, and not against markers (e.g. camouflage markers or TO Camo markers) are NOT affected by Suppression fire. You can't hit what you can't see. All (range, equipment, etc.) modifiers are still applied, based on where the model crosses the suppression line of zone.

I guess I'm confused now.

So your own model, all on its own, enters the 'suppression zone' and will then be automatically shot at?

Or, if you've foolishly (?) left your own models in the 'suppression zone' and an enemy model causes an ARO by the friendly model with a 'suppression zone', THEN your model could get shot?

No, because your model is acting in your turn and does not generate an ARO. Suppression fire is only triggered when an enemy model spends an order in LOS and let's you ARO. Suppression also requires you to be in the corridor of the counter.

So really, you should never hit your own models with it.

Besides, you still get to choose who gets shot at, don't you?

Achilles wrote:No, because your model is acting in your turn and does not generate an ARO. Suppression fire is only triggered when an enemy model spends an order in LOS and let's you ARO. Suppression also requires you to be in the corridor of the counter.

Slightly wrong

Infinity Rule book, pg 144 wrote: Suppression Fire (SF) allows firing the complete Burst (B) of a weapon in ARO. Any miniature, allied or enemy, in LoF, that touches a SF corridor will receive (if the SF figure succeeds at its BS rolls) all the shots indicated by the B of its weapon, in reactive firing. The complete B of the weapon will be fired at each and every miniature activated in LoF by Order inside a SF corridor; and at any miniature that enters a SF corridor in LoF with a Normal Move, Dodge, Coodinated Order, Cautious Movement or any Short Movement skill.

If you tell someone to lay cover fire, then run in front of them, you deserve to be shot.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
SF is literally aiming in a direction, and firing relatively constantly. It is indiscriminate and will hit whoever cross it. It also bypassing coordinated orders as "The complete B of the weapon will be fired at each and every miniature activated in LoF by Order inside a SF corridor" is very clear.

Huh! Well that's what I deserve for clarifying rules questions without a rulebook

Pretty brutal, but still, should be somewhat easy to NOT shoot your own side...

I think!

Alpharius wrote:Pretty brutal, but still, should be somewhat easy to NOT shoot your own side...

I think!

Heheh, you should play some first person shooter games on your PC or game console. It's surprising how often your teammates will run into your line of fire. It's a good thing that friendly fire is off... Most of the time...

Don't read too much into the realism, it's mostly for game balance. Otherwise people would just setup 7 fire lanes across the entire table while their units dance through friendly lines of fire indiscriminately.

Besides, that's probably why they called "Suppression Fire" instead of over-watch. As Deminyn said, Suppression Fire means they are firing nearly consistently. Basically, they are firing just enough to make sure that their enemies keep their heads down.

You really want to run through friendly Suppression Fire? No problem, just make sure the figure is hidden behind camo or TO camo!

As it only lasts for 1 turn, it doesn't take much to avoid it. Just order the guy to cross the street then give the SF order, not the other way around. And then it expires next turn and you can cross the street, then do SF again

MOVEMENT:
As described in my previous posts, each order consists of two “short-orders” or a single “long-order”. “Short-order” combinations can include:

1. Two “short-move” orders (e.g. Move-Move = 1 full order)
2. One “short-move” and one “short-action” (e.g. Move-Shoot = 1 full order)
3. One “long-action” (Suppression Fire = 1 full)

Today, I am going to go into the “types” of short-move orders.

Move:
The first time you move your model, you can move your model the distance in inches of the first movement stat of the model. If you follow up a second move, then the model may only move up to the second number of their movement stat.

(Basic Example – Move-Move Order): On the Yu Jing (YJ) players turn, he decides to activate his motorcycle, the Aragoto Senkenbutai, which has a MOV value of 8-6. YJ player’s notices that there are no models within his bike’s line of fire, so he declares his first short order: move. He shuffles the motorcycle up a whooping 8 inches! Still no enemy units within his line of fire, so his issues the second short-move order. Now the YJ player moves up to the second MOV value, so the bike blazes an additional 6 inches! The motorcycle moved an enormous 14” in on a single order.

Climb:
Unlike other miniature games, all walls in Infinity are “climbable”. If you want to climb a wall, you simply have to make a single physical (PH) check, and you can move vertically equal to your first MOV value of the climbing model. If the model is on the ground when they make their PH check, then the model simply fails to climb. However, if the model is half way up a tall 8” wall, failing the PH check would mean that the model falls to the ground! (Will cover falling damage in a future post) Please note that a climbing model cannot do anything as they hang off a wall. The only exception to this rule is if a model has the “climbing plus” special rule. Then the model can hang on any surface and fire his weapon like SpiderMan.

(Basic Example – Move-Climb Order): The Line Kazak (LK) looks up and sees an open ledge where he can setup a firing position. Ariadna player declares a first short-move, move order as the Line Kazak moves up against the wall, and follows up with a climb short-move order. The Line Kazak now makes a PH11 check and rolls 1d20. He rolls a 7, as the Line Kazak easily climbs onto the short-ledge.

(Complex Example – Climb-Climb Order): The Line Kazak sees a tall 8 inch wall and decides to climb it. The owner issues the first climb order, rolls 1d20 resulting in a 7. The LK moves 4” up the wall and decides to finish the climb with another short-move: climb order. A loose brick comes off in the LK’s hands as he plunges onto the ground. Now he must make an armor save to see if he survived the fall.

Mount/Dismount:
Getting on and off a vehicle such as a motorcycle or TAG with “braces”. No rolls are necessary, simply issue the order and the unit will get on or off his vehicle.

Jump:
Jump is a short skill that allows performance of a horizontal MOV to avoid a hole or a vertical jump to clear an obstacle. The maximum distance of the jump is half the model’s MOV value. A PH Roll with no Modifiers must be successfully made to complete the jump. There is an ability called “Super Jump” which I will cover at a later date.

(Basic Example – Move Jump): Running across the buildings, the Line Kazak sees another rooftop only inches away, so the LK declares a short-move move order to get the edge of the building, then declares a jump, rolls 1d20 for his PH check. He scores a 1 easily clears the short but long verticle gap.

Prone/Get Up:
Go prone is when a model lines down on his stomach in an attempt to hide from enemy fire. Line of fire can only be drawn to a model’s base when it is prone. If a model goes prone on an elevated position, then it is assumed to be in cover. Short-move “Get Up” order is given to models to get out of the prone position, sorry, no climbing around on your hands and knees in this game.

Open/Close:
Doors, containers, etc. No skill checks needed

Discover:
Probably the strangest of the “short-move” orders; discover is when a model attempts to locate a hidden/stealth/camouflaged model. The model makes a basic WIP check and apply the appropirate range modifiers.

(Complex Example – Move-Discover): The Line Kazak cautious approaches the corner, and he seems to notice something in the ruins. He quickly focuses his eyes and stares intently at the camouflaged oddity 10” away. He makes a WIP check.

WIP13 + 0 (no range modifers) – 3 (penalty to discover models with camouflage) = 10

The Ariadna rolls 1d20 and scores a 13 as he fails to see anything. Having failed a detect, the same LK cannot attempt another detect roll against the same marker for the remainder of the turn. However if you have another LK in the area, you are welcome to move him up in order try to detect the marker again.

I'm traveling in Europe on business and forgot my rulebook, so no questions from me for a while, but I do appreciate the 'walk-throughs' and clarifications!

Keep 'em coming!

We've been testing the rules a bit here ("playing" would be too strong a word at that point), and there's one question that came up, that we haven't figured yet.
How do resolve opposed multiple actions ?
Say a combi-rifle (3 shots), triggering a reaction shot (single shot). Does the target succeed if the dice rolls better than all the shooter's dices (which is harsh) ? Something else ?

We argued over this in our game b/c I remembered something, but couldn't find it while playing.
Only one player will get hit, and they will get hit by the number of passes that exceed their role.

The best example of this is found under the Total Reaction skill.


So let's say A is shooting 3 times at BS 11, B is 1 time at BS 12

A - 1, 7, 12
B - 6

A gets 1 hit on B (the 7)

A - 1,7,10
B - 3

A gets 2 hits on B (7&10)

A - 1, 2, 3
B - 4

B gets 1 hit on A (4)

HudsonD wrote:We've been testing the rules a bit here ("playing" would be too strong a word at that point), and there's one question that came up, that we haven't figured yet.
How do resolve opposed multiple actions ?
Say a combi-rifle (3 shots), triggering a reaction shot (single shot). Does the target succeed if the dice rolls better than all the shooter's dices (which is harsh) ? Something else ?

Yep, ARO's are response is harsh, as you must beat all the opposing rolls for it to take effect. However, results that are below the ARO rolls are ignored. The game mechanic definitely gives the active player (the one with 3 shots) the advantage. Which is why I tend to chuckle when new players sometimes say that "ARO's are over the top".

Deminyn's examples are accurate. Basically the way you think about it is that the effect of the highest success rolled is always applied. Then you apply all subsequent success up to your opponent's success roll.

Confused yet? Let's break down Deminy's example. Player A's rolls will be a number, and player B's rolls will be in ().

1, (6), 7, 12

Let's take a look at the numbers... With BS11...

12 = fail
7 = success
(6) = success
1 = success

12 is a failed skill check hence it is discarded. The highest success (7) is always applied. The 1 roll is technically a success, but it failed to beat opposing 6, hence the "1" success is negated by the enemy's higher success roll.

Here is a "real life" example, A opens fire on B and manages to clip him with the first round. However B managed to get a shot off and caused A to recoil, and his subsequent shots missed.

Alpharius wrote:I'm traveling in Europe on business and forgot my rulebook

Forgot the rulebook!?! How dare you!?!

Oh wait this is Infinity... All the rules can be downloaded for free... Or just wait till you get back home.

Downloading even relatively small files via free hotel wireless is painful!

Still, I have this thread to keep me entertained, informed and educated!