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2014/11/14 22:33:46
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
That, I think, is a playstyle concern, rather than an inherent flaw in the rule. Yes, you might have to assign a squad of Battle-Sister babysitters to make most efficient use out of the ability... but that is not that terrible an application of the rule, as its a situational power (and a buff for the Mistress leading the squad in any event).
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/11/15 00:00:00
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.
So I think I'll keep "Little Sisters" -- but if anyone has a better idea for how to express on the tabletop the adult Sisters' protectiveness towards Novices, I'm all ears.
As for "Crisis of Faith," I think I'll rewrite it as a straight Leadership check per AtoMaki's suggestion, rather than a Morale Check, so failure doesn't cause a potential break-and-run, just the loss of AOF and SOF. (I do think the unit should lose both, though).
I know everyone loves Novices, but does anyone have comments about the other two units, in particular the Vigil infiltrators? The Throne bikers I'm pretty confident in, after much back and forth in this and previous threads, but I'm still uncertain about the Vigils' Act of Faith and particularly whether they should get Precision Shots all the time or only as an AOF.
Um, maybe? They'd have to graduate to full Sister status, do something so bad they were sentenced to be Repentia, redeem themselves in battle, die and come back to life, and, err, keep doing that.... There's not a mechanic I can think of to write, but then I'm not sure what you meant. Can you expand?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/15 00:01:52
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I like the Vigils... but I think that, with the Battle-Siblings to all other Imperial armies, that could get pretty nasty pretty quickly.
BB in with Space Wolves (yes, yes, fluff-killing, bear with me) and pod in 3 or 4 squads of Vigils into the enemy backfield and you have a *nasty* IC/Tankhunting/MC hunting party that only need to survive for one shooting phase to really accomplish their mission, and any Turn longer they survive to shoot at enemy units with their bolters/meltas/what-have-yous is just icing.
Properly set-up, pod these ladies in on T2 while the other half of your army is blitzing forward in Rhino transports or on bikes in T1, and you basically sandwich the enemy between them... and that isn't even considering what allies you might take from the Space Wolves.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/11/15 00:36:18
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Drop pod abuse is definitely a thing. Be glad I didn't give Vigils access to Heavy Weapons, though I'm tempted! (It seems out of character for troops who are going to stealthily infiltrate on foot). I'm not convinced that the potential for abuse requires a rewrite of the unit -- especially since they're 25 points per T:3 W:1 model.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
SisterSydney wrote: Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.
Thing is, that even if there is a Sister squad nearby, the player won't join the combat, because Sisters suck in combat and it is much better to simply stay, let the Novices die, then shoot the enemy into bits.
my proposition for a "protective" special rule is Hit&Run for the Novices with an added bonus that the Mistress can sacrifice herself for an auto-success on the Initiative test, and the unit can re-roll the test if there is a Sister unit within 6" (as the initiates give the novices some covering fire).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/15 11:17:26
My armies:
14000 points
2014/11/15 11:11:27
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Um, maybe? They'd have to graduate to full Sister status, do something so bad they were sentenced to be Repentia, redeem themselves in battle, die and come back to life, and, err, keep doing that.... There's not a mechanic I can think of to write, but then I'm not sure what you meant. Can you expand?
Her resurrection is an act of faith.
That's a pretty big problem here that needs to be addressed.
Also, Id recommend to make the "crisis of faith" thing not trigger when a SoBIC is attached and the mistress dies, but DO trigger when an attached IC dies.
It should be the top-ranking member in the squad that matters, not the superior specifically. (maybe make it trigger when a team meber with the highest leadership dies?)
SisterSydney wrote: Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.
Thing is, that even there is a Sister squad nearby, the player won't join the combat, because Sisters suck in combat and it is much better to simply stay, let the Novices die, then shoot the enemy into bits.
my proposition for a "protective" special rule is Hit&Run for the Novices with an added bonus that the Mistress can sacrifice herself for an auto-success on the Initiative test, and the unit can re-roll the test if there is a Sister unit within 6" (as the initiates give the novices some covering fire).
Avoiding CC because you suck at it in general regardless of specific conditions is a mistake.
Yes, sisters as a whole are not good at CC, but there are things out there who are worse. quite a few things. or things that are about as good at CC, but so much better at shooting you win by simply blocking their shots.
Even my tau find occasions where they find it useful to jump into CC in every other game.
So when you got an half-decent unit (sisters) that get a situational bonus (from little sisters) and another unit is already involved in that combat (the novices) that are partly useful anyway (sheer power of krak grenades)-piling it up, you can beat most non-CC dedicated units.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/15 11:15:40
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2014/11/15 11:30:31
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
SisterSydney wrote: Yes, both "Little Sisters" and "Emulate the Elders" are supposed to incentivize you to keep Novices close to adult Sister squads so they can buff each other. And the Mistress of Novices does indeed get the Hatred buff all the time, because she's always protecting her charges.
Thing is, that even there is a Sister squad nearby, the player won't join the combat, because Sisters suck in combat and it is much better to simply stay, let the Novices die, then shoot the enemy into bits.
my proposition for a "protective" special rule is Hit&Run for the Novices with an added bonus that the Mistress can sacrifice herself for an auto-success on the Initiative test, and the unit can re-roll the test if there is a Sister unit within 6" (as the initiates give the novices some covering fire).
Avoiding CC because you suck at it in general regardless of specific conditions is a mistake.
Yes, sisters as a whole are not good at CC, but there are things out there who are worse. quite a few things. or things that are about as good at CC, but so much better at shooting you win by simply blocking their shots.
Even my tau find occasions where they find it useful to jump into CC in every other game.
So when you got an half-decent unit (sisters) that get a situational bonus (from little sisters) and another unit is already involved in that combat (the novices) that are partly useful anyway (sheer power of krak grenades)-piling it up, you can beat most non-CC dedicated units.
Actually, since the Novices are backfield units, they will never meet any of those weak-in-combat units unless your opponent is doing something very wrong. And since Novices drop like flied in combat, the Sisters might find themselves in a very sticky situation for that 1-2 extra hit as they lose combat from Combat Resolution and die from Sweeping Advance.
My armies:
14000 points
2014/11/15 14:16:05
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Why exactly are novices backfield units?
You can amass large numbers with ease and use them to push forward along with your main force, they are the "quantity over quality" sisters.
And as base troop units, just shoving a hell lot of them forward CAN work.
Also, you seem to assume they drop like flies in combat form some reason, why?
Not everything you face out there has any CC abilities to brag about, they will fall against anyone packing power weapons or krak grenades, but not everyone does.
In fact, if you look at their price range, they crush most things of similar value in CC due to the fact they got krak, and the similarly costed opponent does not.
And amusingly, against MCs-they survive better than space marines. per model, not to mention per points where they are much cheaper.
So if you run them up against IG groups, lesser orks, tau, eldar non-PA aspects etc-they can win. especially when price is considered.
The first rule of CC many people forget-you don't need to be any good at it, you just need to be better than whatever you fight against.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/15 14:19:04
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now.
2014/11/15 14:52:08
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Interesting discussion. BoomWolf, I presume you mean the big deal is that they have frag (assault) grenades, not that they have krak (which only help assaults on vehicles)?
Even against elite CC units dropping into the backfield, I can see Novices and the Little Sisters rule being some use. You could park five Repentia in your backfield too -- since many people say they're best as counterattack units where they don't have to slog towards the target and got shut up -- and tell the Repentia "if you keep the kids alive, you're back in the order." Imagine the "stay away from her, you BITCH!" scene from aliens, with Ripley in her walker replaced by chainsaw-wielding fetish nuns....
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
BoomWolf wrote: Why exactly are novices backfield units?
You can amass large numbers with ease and use them to push forward along with your main force, they are the "quantity over quality" sisters.
And as base troop units, just shoving a hell lot of them forward CAN work.
Also, you seem to assume they drop like flies in combat form some reason, why?
Because I have seen them in action . That's why I know that they are in fact backfield units best used for sitting on objectives while the Sisters roll up the enemy. And that's why I know that the risk of squad wipe from Sweeping Advance is pretty darn high - in fact, all the Novice Squads I've seen in combat were swept (ore won the combat) rather than killed to the last.
Also, you can use Krak grenades only against vehicles, gun emplacements and MCs.
My armies:
14000 points
2014/11/15 20:25:42
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Atomaki is the world's leading expert on this unit at the moment. Question re "Little Sisters," revised version: Understanding it was rare for another Sisters unit to show up in the same combat, did having Hatred on the Mistress of Novices make a difference? It's just one character with a couple of attacks, admittedly....
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Um, maybe? They'd have to graduate to full Sister status, do something so bad they were sentenced to be Repentia, redeem themselves in battle, die and come back to life, and, err, keep doing that.... There's not a mechanic I can think of to write, but then I'm not sure what you meant. Can you expand?
Her resurrection is an act of faith.
That's a pretty big problem here that needs to be addressed.
That was my thought. I don’t have a copy of the newest SoB rules, but recalled Celestines’s getting back up as a AoF. Seemed inappropriate for novices to copy that one, but wasn’t sure how the wording worked out.
Yeah, I see how Novice are fragile, but trying to fix that by giving them the power to come back to life seems -- um -- overkill.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Hey! Here's an idea for a being-protective-of "Little Sisters" special rule. Instead of all the Hatred and Preferred Enemy things I've been messing with, give nearby adult Sisters, in essence, Tau-style Supporting Fire -- if someone charges the Novices, any Sisters nearby can fire Overwatch.
I also like Atomaki's idea of giving the squad Hit & Run with the Mistress staying behind to sacrifice herself, especially since it triggers the "Crisis of Faith" rule, but what I really want to do is provide a way for multiple adult Sisters squads to protect the novices, not just an individual model.
I also like Nevelon's and Atomaki's idea of one novice coming back from the dead, but that'd be a lot of rules to revive one 8-point model.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Hrm, maybe Supporting Fire? But, then, that kind of flips things right around.... now instead of camping them on the backfield, you'll want them nearer the front... and in line to *be* subject to Assault, which is only situationally useful against certain armies (it does not, for example, provide anything vs any sort of gunline army).
And I think 1 Novice miraculously surviving the tank-shell that wipes out her unit is not particularly out-of-step with the Sisterhood in general, so perhaps mimicing Celestine's AoF is not a terrible thing.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/11/19 02:09:24
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Well, that's the cynical way to use Supporting Fire with Novices. You could also camp them in the backfield and use Supporting Fire to protect them so that, when the enemy's elite deep strikers try to charge your innocent little girls, their Retributor big sisters say "oh HELL no" and blaze away.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
I got the question: If you wanted to have the Sisters in Necromunda, what would you do in order to make them into something other than the buffed-up Arbites?
2014/11/19 20:56:08
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Never even read the Necromunda rules, so I couldn't say.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
shinr wrote: I got the question: If you wanted to have the Sisters in Necromunda, what would you do in order to make them into something other than the buffed-up Arbites?
Ehm... the Sisters would basically be buffed-up Arbites in Necromunda. I'd give them a 3+ Armor Save, S3, T3, maybe each one is a 2W model, Ld 8 or 9... and maybe an AoF ability that can be used once per game to add +2 to the damage of a melee or shooting attack?
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/11/19 22:47:25
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
SisterSydney wrote: Hey! Here's an idea for a being-protective-of "Little Sisters" special rule. Instead of all the Hatred and Preferred Enemy things I've been messing with, give nearby adult Sisters, in essence, Tau-style Supporting Fire -- if someone charges the Novices, any Sisters nearby can fire Overwatch.
I also like Atomaki's idea of giving the squad Hit & Run with the Mistress staying behind to sacrifice herself, especially since it triggers the "Crisis of Faith" rule, but what I really want to do is provide a way for multiple adult Sisters squads to protect the novices, not just an individual model.
I also like Nevelon's and Atomaki's idea of one novice coming back from the dead, but that'd be a lot of rules to revive one 8-point model.
If you're still thinking of how to promote a "protect the kiddies" concept when playing Novices, what about having them improve the longer they survive? Essentially, take away Shield of Faith and give them them something along the lines of Dark Eldar's "Power from Pain" special rule. After all, they're only half-baked nuns and aren't fully fledged Sisters yet.
The way I'd set it is to give them a "Novice" special rule that gives them extra abilities/bonuses depending on the turn. For instance:
Huh. Interesting. That's a hella fast learning curve, though!
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
... I think such a structure for "building towards greatness" would work better in a narrative campaign, and be based on number of battles or campaign objectives attained.
It is best to be a pessimist. You are usually right and, when you're wrong, you're pleasantly surprised.
2014/11/21 05:17:51
Subject: Re:Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
My counterargument to that would be that - at least not from a gameplay perspective - there's no point having the Novices be weaker than the generic, all-purpose unit of the codex. If Novices are not better their competitor for slots, then they would simply never be used since they lack a role.
Having a unit that progressively gets better as the game goes on creates an interesting dynamic and strategic element to the game; especially within the context where most other units in the army do not.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/11/21 09:28:11
2014/11/21 14:21:50
Subject: Vigils, Thrones, & Novices: Infiltrators, Bikers, & Child Soldiers for the Adepta Sororitas
Another idea for the protectiveness of little sisters would be to boost their shied of faith to a 5++. This could represent the senior sisters praying for the safety of the novices, or the fact that the Emperor looks out for children and fools, and they are a bit of both.
Mechanically, it replaces a semi-complicated special rule you need to remember and keep track of who it affects, etc, with a simple passive bonus.
The cool ideas keep coming -- but I think I'm going to go with my own "Tau-style supporting fire" version of "Little Sisters." I want the rule to actually cause adult Sororitas to do something on the tabletop and encourage players to protect Novices with regular Sisters. As for their tactical role, well, they're cheap second-line troops to give you a little extra Objective Secured, and potentially act as bait for enemy charges.
Also I've toned down Crisis of Faith so the squad doesn't necessarily rout.
Unit Composition: 1 Mistress of Novices, 9 Novices
Unit Type: Infantry; Mistress is Infantry (Character)
Wargear (novices): Carapace armour, boltgun, frag and krak grenades
Wargear (Mistress): Power armour, boltgun, bolt pistol, frag and krak grenades
Special Rules: Act of Faith, Shield of Faith
Crisis of Faith A Mistress of Novices spends years guiding and guarding her young charges. To see her killed shakes them to their souls. The bereaved Novices may lose heart at the death of their mentor -- or they may seek to avenge her with a reckless fury that older and wiser soldiers would not dare. If a Mistress of Novices is removed as a casualty, her squad must take a Leadership Check at the end of the phase. (This is in addition to any Morale check caused by casualties, losing a close combat, or any other reason). The Novices naturally do not benefit from the Mistress's Leadership, but they may still benefit from other characters'.
If the squad fails this Morale Check, all Novice models immediately and permanently lose the Act of Faith and Shield of Faith special rules.
If the squad passes this Morale Check, it immediately gains the Zealot special rule.
Little Sisters Full-fledged Sisters of Battle may tease the young Novices mercilessly, but they are fiercely protective of them. When an enemy unit declares a charge against a Novice squad, all adult Sisters units within 6" of the charging unit’s target can choose to fire Overwatch as if they were also targets of the charge. Remember that a unit can still only fire Overwatch once each phase.
An adult Sister of Battle is any model with the Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith special rules that is not itself a Novice
Act of Faith: Emulate the Elders Still learning the ways of the Adepta Sororitas as they are, Novices depend on the example of their elders -- even when those elders are rank-and-file Battle Sisters themselves barely out of their teens. One use only. This Act of Faith may be used in any phase during which a unit of adult Battle Sisters successfully performed an Act of Faith within 6" of the Novice Squad. If successful, the Novice Squad immediately performs the same Act of Faith (if it is physically possible to do so: Novices may not imitate a Throne Squad's turbo-boost, for example).
An adult Sister of Battle is any model with the Acts of Faith and Shield of Faith special rules that is not itself a Novice.
Dedicated Transport:
A Novice squad with ten models or fewer may take a Rhino as a Dedicated Transport.
Options:
Add up to ten additional Novices: 8 points per model
One Novice may take an item from the Special Weapons list.
The Mistress of Novices may take items from the Melee Weapons and/or Ranged Weapons lists.
The Mistress may take melta bombs: 5 points
When a prospective Sister of Battle graduates from the Schola Progenium around age 12, she is sent to the Adepta Sororitas for what is typically a six-year Novitiate. As a Novice, she learns the Sisterhood's traditions, rituals, tactics, and weaponry. A strength-augmentation harness worn over her carapace armour allows the teenage girl to handle the weight of the holy bolter, letting her train from the first day of her Novitiate with the weapon she will most likely use for the rest of her life.
As a matter of both military doctrine and maternal instinct, the Sisterhood tries to keep its Novices safe, by the standards of the Imperium. Novices do sometimes accompany Battle Sisters on campaign as pages, serving their elders and observing the Sororitas way of war first-hand while being carefully graded for their skills, piety, and nerve. Older Novices being considered for the Orders Militant are even organized into squads and sent into combat as a form of live-fire training, albeit against weak targets and with extensive backup. Only as a desperate measure would the Sororitas throw their "Little Sisters" into pitched battle. But desperate times call for desperate measures, and in the grim darkness of a waning Imperium, times are desperate all the time....
Design Notes:
Spoiler:
Start with a basic Battle Sister @ 12 ppm.
-1 BS: -10 points
-1 Ld: -5 pts
Replace Power Armour with Carapace: -5 pts (per a PM from Ovion)
Total subtractions: -20 points
Little Sisters: +10 points
Essentially Tau Supporting fire (10 points) for multiple Sisters units (multiply by...something) but only protecting one unit (divide by... the same thing?), so 10 pts.
Essentially Hatred for the Mistress in close combat but not shooting (10/2 = 5 points) plus potentially other Sisters units, again in close combat but not shooting (10/2 = 5 pts), potentially for multiple Sister squads but only under very specialized circumstances (which I figure cancel out). So 10 points.
Crisis of Faith: +/-0 points
A tricky one to cost. First, it potentially causes the unit to take a morale check when it otherwise wouldn't have to, which is bad. Second, assuming no Independent Character has joined the unit, it's a Ld 7 test, so about a 50-50 chance to succeed or fail. On a succeed, it effectively adds two special rules, Fearless & Hatred (+20 points), and on a failure, it takes away two SRs (-20).
NET: -10 points
Divide by 3 for high-quality troops, which these still are relative to Guardsmen: -3.3 pts. Then take -1 more because they don't have Bolt Pistols.
12 - 4.3 = 7.7 points, round up to 8.
But the Mistress is a standard Battle Sister (12 pts) with the Veteran Superior upgrade (10 points), so it's a squad with nine 8-pt models (=72 pts) and one 22-pointer: 94 points, round up to 95 for sanity's sake.
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
14000 points 
can neither confirm nor deny I lost track of what I've got right now. 
)
. That's why I know that they are in fact backfield units best used for sitting on objectives while the Sisters roll up the enemy. And that's why I know that the risk of squad wipe from Sweeping Advance is pretty darn high - in fact, all the Novice Squads I've seen in combat were swept (ore won the combat) rather than killed to the last.
Ultramarines, 3rd Co. and friends, 16k+ 
4k 
2k Points
Competition Index
.
