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OK, then what is your equivalent unit / model you want to build from? Arco-Flagellant?

Or do you want the PE to be as squishy and explodey as it looks? AV10/10/10 Open-Topped, no defensive Specials?

(Actually, a suicide Sentinel that always Explodes d6" for S5 AP4 hits when destroyed isn't a bad idea...)

Yeah, I want the thing as squishy, explody, fast and hard-to-hit as it looks and is described.

Since the thing is described as fast and erratic, careening wildly across the battlefield, it should have a 4+ Jink. It is purely an offensive unit, a PE has no defensive application (other than the "off" switch)

HoW on the charge seems to fit. Low AV seems to fit as, being a Walker, it always takes hits on the front AV in CC... which means the pilot/penitent. Rage, Berserk, Hatred (Everything)... these things fit the idea of a drug-addled, mind-repurposed maddened heretic unleashed on the enemies of the Emperor in the cause of his/her own death/absolution.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
OK, then what is your equivalent unit / model you want to build from? Arco-Flagellant?

Or do you want the PE to be as squishy and explodey as it looks? AV10/10/10 Open-Topped, no defensive Specials?

(Actually, a suicide Sentinel that always Explodes d6" for S5 AP4 hits when destroyed isn't a bad idea...)

Well I tried to construst a Monstrous Critter version of an arco-flagellant, but it wasn't very popular.

OK, let me reconsider an Arco-Flagellant pilot strapped to a crude, giant, walking Promethium sprayer with rippy hands...

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, I want the thing as squishy, explody, fast and hard-to-hit as it looks and is described.

Since the thing is described as fast and erratic, careening wildly across the battlefield, it should have a 4+ Jink. It is purely an offensive unit, a PE has no defensive application (other than the "off" switch)

HoW on the charge seems to fit. Low AV seems to fit as, being a Walker, it always takes hits on the front AV in CC... which means the pilot/penitent. Rage, Berserk, Hatred (Everything)... these things fit the idea of a drug-addled, mind-repurposed maddened heretic unleashed on the enemies of the Emperor in the cause of his/her own death/absolution.

If it has erratic movement, shouldn't it have random movement? Like a spawn?

Perhaps?

Though, unlike a Spawn, there is a reasonably-intelligent mind guiding the thing...so maybe somewhat less variance to their movement.

 Psienesis wrote:
Perhaps?

Though, unlike a Spawn, there is a reasonably-intelligent mind guiding the thing...so maybe somewhat less variance to their movement.

Yeah, an intelligent mind in agony and hopped on whatever that thing is pumping. If I understand the purpose of that thing correctly, the only thought that should be in that mind is PURGE HERESY PURGE HERESY PURGE HERESY! REDEMPTION
Repeat ad infinitum.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Yeah, I want the thing as squishy, explody, fast and hard-to-hit as it looks and is described.

Since the thing is described as fast and erratic, careening wildly across the battlefield, it should have a 4+ Jink. It is purely an offensive unit, a PE has no defensive application (other than the "off" switch)

HoW on the charge seems to fit. Low AV seems to fit as, being a Walker, it always takes hits on the front AV in CC... which means the pilot/penitent. Rage, Berserk, Hatred (Everything)... these things fit the idea of a drug-addled, mind-repurposed maddened heretic unleashed on the enemies of the Emperor in the cause of his/her own death/absolution.

If it has erratic movement, shouldn't it have random movement? Like a spawn?

If that's the case, then the PE should scatter 2d6" in a random direction for movement, half distance toward the small arrow on a "Hit!"... HoW anything it bumps into.

I strongly dislike the idea of a 4++ Jink save, as it's too good and represents a sort of skill and maneuverability that is not applicable.

What if the penitent engine got buffs depending on how many enemies are close to it?
The pilot / prisoner / victim is meant to have an unbearable urge to redeem himself by killing the enemy, so many it becomes stronger the more enemies there are.

Or gets stronger the more damage it takes. Like, for every certain number of hits it receives, it gets +1 strength or something.

The PE to me should really be a berserker type unit; a violent and unpredictable monstrosity that just wants to murder all day, even if it gets destroyed in the process.

That's the Rampage ability.

Does it make the penitent engine killy enough?

KIlly enough? That depends ...

First, let's review the starting point:

Arco-Flagellant - 10 pts each
WS5 BS1 S3(5) T3 W1 I3 A3(4) Ld8 Sv-
2x Arco-Flails (S+2 AP-)
Feel No Pain

An AF is just a unarmored person (T3 W1 I3 Sv-) running around with 2 huge weapons. Drugs provide some durability via Feel No Pain, which roughly equates to a 5++ Invulnerable save. The big thing is WS5 BS1 A3 - that's pretty awesome and a great fit for a crazed killing machine.

Embiggening the Arco-Flagellant, we keep the WS5 BS1, and double the S values to S6(10 with DNCCW). Translate the T3 W1 over as AV10/10/10 Open-Topped with 2 HPs like a basic Scout Sentinel. Add the Flamers, because BS1. Also Hammer of Wrath because it starts like a Sentinel.

That leaves FNP, which translates over to IWND. Sentinel has MTC & Scout, which are at odds with the PE's purpose - swap those for Rage (+2A charging) and Rampage (+d3A when outnumbered).

Points-wise, we start at 35 pts for the Sentinel,
+0 to swap Guardsman to Arco-Flagellant,
+0 to swap the HF for 2 Flamers
+20 pts to add the 2 DNCCWs.


Penitent Engine
WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage, It Will Not Die.

Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.

In most cases, each PE will be rolling 8x WS8 S10 AP2 attacks when charging. That's some pretty mean stuff, if it reaches HTH.

Fleet would be really nice, but it's not obvious that it's something that the model should have for free. Tho if we had the current 80-pt budget, Fleet would be a given, along with AV11 and the weapon upgrades to HFs instead of Flamers. Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.

The Jink could be justified as not skill of the pilot but just pure random movement, hard to target because it's impossible to judge where it's going to lurch to next, especially if combined with the random movement of a Spawn.

At 4+, it's a 50/50 chance that it just keeps lurching/staggering/speeing out of the way of things that would otherwise almost assuredly kill it.

The problem is that a bit of random movement just doesn't change the target position that much to warrant a huge 50-50 auto-save against everything. Particularly compared to determined evasion and making deliberate use of cover, etc. Even then, Jink is too good.

Random movement creates a "wind-up" automaton, which is less a part of one's army, and more a force of nature. I remember wind-up Berzerkers, but a lot of players hated them. In the case of a PE, it would also have to be a threat to the player's army when it goes the wrong direction, like a Night Goblin Fanatic or uncontrolled Squig. For how poorly Sisters are received, adding a reason not to take something is a bad idea.

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Thematically, I link PEs and Repentia together.

While you should link PE with arcoflagellants instead. Because PE are literally bigger arco-flagellants.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
Thematically, I link PEs and Repentia together.

While you should link PE with arcoflagellants instead. Because PE are literally bigger arco-flagellants.

Please read the whole thread before posting? Or at least the last post?

You know, the one in which I reworked the PE based on the AF?

 JohnHwangDD wrote:
The problem is that a bit of random movement just doesn't change the target position that much to warrant a huge 50-50 auto-save against everything. Particularly compared to determined evasion and making deliberate use of cover, etc. Even then, Jink is too good.

Random movement creates a "wind-up" automaton, which is less a part of one's army, and more a force of nature. I remember wind-up Berzerkers, but a lot of players hated them. In the case of a PE, it would also have to be a threat to the player's army when it goes the wrong direction, like a Night Goblin Fanatic or uncontrolled Squig. For how poorly Sisters are received, adding a reason not to take something is a bad idea.

Well, the idea behind them kind of *is* a "wind-up automaton". After all, the guy/girl strapped (or crucified) to the front of it doesn't actually guide where it goes (which is a correction from my earlier statement, it's the logic-engine of the machine that pilots it)... the occupant of the machine actually appears to be entirely incidental to its operation.

As above - nobody wants to play that.

The player takes the part of the "logic engine, just as the player takes the part of the Nid Hive Mind.

Removing player control from their models should be the exception and penalty, not the default.

I'm not a fan of random movement myself, and that's the kind of thing that usually leaves models on the shelf. Make it move towards the nearest visible enemy like the old Rage rule did and you'd have it fitting the fluff nicely.

Plus unlike most of the other old Rage units it's choppy enough to kill most things it touches.

Sure, the PE as proposed above has a good chance of killing what it touches.

The problem is that it has to get there...

AV10 Open-Topped makes these things not particularly sturdy units, and they are large enough not to get cover by anything short of a vehicle (unlike a Dread which can be screened by ordinary SMs).

These are classic "glass cannon" units, with the challenge that they need to move into HTH against an opponent who likely recognizes them to be killy enough to want to avoid HtH with one.

Being so fragile, even mandatory movement is a problem because it means it often gets hung out and autodestroyed.

So, we assume the "logic engine" is smart enough to use cover and position, to wait for an opportune moment, or to even use retrograde movement to ensure survival until it can charge to best effect - IOW, regular player control.

IMO, the fragility and limited functionality of the unit provides ample tactical challenge for most players, but a high potential payoff (6+ WS5 S10 AP2 attacks!!!) and low price (55 pts, or less) can make it tempting.

I really like this:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Penitent Engine
WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage, It Will Not Die.

Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.

In most cases, each PE will be rolling 8x WS8 S10 AP2 attacks when charging. That's some pretty mean stuff, if it reaches HTH.

Fleet would be really nice, but it's not obvious that it's something that the model should have for free. Tho if we had the current 80-pt budget, Fleet would be a given, along with AV11 and the weapon upgrades to HFs instead of Flamers. Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.

I started what ended up being a four-page thread on how to fix the Penitent Engine, and I don't think we came up with anything this good. You might want to make it faster, though, which would fit both the fluff and the tactical role.

As for tweaks to the current Pengine, the most straightforward fix we came up with was to let it move as if it were Cavalry, which gets it into combat faster. That's what I used in my fandex/expandex, since I was trying to add on to the current digital dex rather than replace it.

Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.

Completely agree with this. Even with no stat or rule buffs at all the PE would be usable if the point cost was reduced. ThougI would prefer to see it get the how/rage/rampage/iwnd combo.

 dracpanzer wrote:

Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.

Completely agree with this. Even with no stat or rule buffs at all the PE would be usable if the point cost was reduced. ThougI would prefer to see it get the how/rage/rampage/iwnd combo.

I agree with this as well. I think the problem with PE is that it simply shares a slot with the infinitely superior Exorcist. If nothing else but its slot changed, it would already see more use.

I come from a 'Nid and Ork background, so throwing many threat vectors at an opponent with cheap, expendable, but deadly options, is something familiar to me. A few separate PE's in addition to a full list full of other threats like Dominions, good jump-infantry, etc... would mean that a couple perhaps do get to the fight and earn back all of their points... OR they soak up fire that would've been directed to other things by a scared opponent.

There is a place for them, maybe even as-is... but not in the Heavy slot... or without formations.

Hell, I would run the formation from the Codex that is meant for Apoc. Make that a "normal" formation, freeing up slots, and we'd talk. :-p

Oh, and yes... as-is, but in the Elite slot, and at 60pts... I'd take a few every single game. They'd essentially be Mega-Armor-Nobs on crack, without a transport (but who can run).

PE strike me as a FA slot sort of thing. Especially of they had fleet or something to make them cross the table faster.

Yes, as an FA option they would be vastly more useful... but their current slot both makes no sense for the role the unit is intended for, and it competes with another unit that is superior in every way.

I don't know about Fast Attack. Would you give up a squad of Scouting/Outflanking Dominions with four Ignores Cover meltaguns, plus Immolator, for three Penitent Engines? Would you give up a Deep Striking squad of Seraphim with Shred? It really depends on the stats and your playstyle, I guess, but it's hardly an easy decision.

My patch in my fandex/expandex was to let them move as Cavalry and then let a Confessor unlock PE as an Elites choice, the way a Master of the Forge unlocks Dreadnaughts as a Heavy Support choice. I think Elites is a better option than Fast Attack.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I really like this:

 JohnHwangDD wrote:

Penitent Engine
WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage, It Will Not Die.

Elite, Squadron of 1-3 models, 55 pts each.

In most cases, each PE will be rolling 8x WS8 S10 AP2 attacks when charging. That's some pretty mean stuff, if it reaches HTH.

Fleet would be really nice, but it's not obvious that it's something that the model should have for free. Tho if we had the current 80-pt budget, Fleet would be a given, along with AV11 and the weapon upgrades to HFs instead of Flamers. Thing is, I like simpler PEs at a lower point cost. They become easier to take as less of a points investment and less of a risk.

I started what ended up being a four-page thread on how to fix the Penitent Engine, and I don't think we came up with anything this good. You might want to make it faster, though, which would fit both the fluff and the tactical role.

As for tweaks to the current Pengine, the most straightforward fix we came up with was to let it move as if it were Cavalry, which gets it into combat faster. That's what I used in my fandex/expandex, since I was trying to add on to the current digital dex rather than replace it.

First, glad you like it.

Second, wow, that thread... 100+ pt PEs? The consensus seems to be that they're not really worth 80 pts to most players, so increasing the point cost to make them more like Bjorn the Fell-Handed is probably the wrong direction.

But I do see the discussion on speed. Cavalry is very good, but this isn't a quadruped thing that can gallop - it's still a Sentinel, hardwired kill-crazy pilot notwithstanding. We don't need to get into the Ork Looted failure / self-destruction rules, which are simply another reason not to take a model.

The Maulerfiend is an interesting point of comparision.

Maulerfiend - 125 pts HS
WS3 BS3 S6(10) AV12/12/10 I3 A2(3) Sv5++ HP3
2 PFs, 2 magma cutters (I1 S8 AP1 bonus hits)
Daemonic, Daemonforge (re-roll to-wound, but 1/6 -1HP), Fleet, IWND, MTC
Seige Crawler (move 12", ignore difficult terrain, +1AP vs buildings)

+10 pts to replace magma cutters w/ Lasher Tendrils (-1A to opponents BtB)

The design concept is very different from a Sentinel / PE. The Maulerfiend is fast (M12" Fleet MTC) and tough (AV12 Sv5++ HP3 IWND), so he's pretty much guaranteed to get into combat - but not uber-killy as he only has 4 attacks on the charge. He's bad news, because he's relatively hard to kill, so he can get in and just be a pain that keeps digging and digging.


In revisiting the PE, would drop IWND (which probably doesn't get used that much) in favor of Fleet and a minimal 6++ field (which is generally useful, and not out of the question for such units, allowing the completely exposed pilot), and adding a few options:

Penitent Engine - Squadron 1-3, 55 pts each Elite
WS5 BS1 S6(10) AV10/10/10 I3 A3(4) Sv6++ HP2 Ld10
2x DNCCW (w/ 1 Flamer ea)
Open-Topped, Fleet, Hammer of Wrath, Rage, Rampage.

- may exchange both Flamers for Defensive and Assault Grenades for free.
- may upgrade both Flamers to Heavy Flamers for +10 pts
- may upgrade power field to 5++ for +10 pts

This version is a little bit faster and more reliable in movement, compared to the Sentinel it's based on. It is somewhat less likely to fail reaching HtH when needed, while not being so dramatically faster that it justifies a points cost increase.


2.5 PEs charged by Maulerfied with Lashers (-2A each), the Maulerfiend will have 3 attacks for 1 hit, Destroying 1 PE. The 2.5 PEs will have 2A each for 3 hits, likely Destroying the Fiend. This is the quantity vs quality advantage of a lower base points cost.

Slot-wise, it's definitely NOT a Heavy, and I like it as an Elite, representing an upgrade from an Arco-Flagellant. Swapping IWND for Fleet, I am OK with the PE as a Fast pick.

Random aside... does the poster above me literally shill the fandex in every single post?

Sir... I appreciate the effort, and the passion project... but ye Gods, does that get old. :-p

Not every single post, but arguably too often. It's easy to overdo when the actual topic at hand is people trying to homebrew Sisters units....

Anyway, Happy New Year, y'all. Keep all your resolutions or the Sisters will come burn ya!

If you're lucky and not made into an arco or a pengine.

 SisterSydney wrote:
I don't know about Fast Attack. Would you give up a squad of Scouting/Outflanking Dominions with four Ignores Cover meltaguns, plus Immolator, for three Penitent Engines? Would you give up a Deep Striking squad of Seraphim with Shred? It really depends on the stats and your playstyle, I guess, but it's hardly an easy decision.

My patch in my fandex/expandex was to let them move as Cavalry and then let a Confessor unlock PE as an Elites choice, the way a Master of the Forge unlocks Dreadnaughts as a Heavy Support choice. I think Elites is a better option than Fast Attack.

Elites would make them compete with Repentia in a Repentance themed army though.