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Are there any possibilities for these units in a Chaos Army? Greater Daemons excluded, it seems that the lesser daemons have nothing but a semi-cheap cost and Fearless.

Cryonicleech wrote:Are there any possibilities for these units in a Chaos Army? Greater Daemons excluded, it seems that the lesser daemons have nothing but a semi-cheap cost and Fearless.

I wouldn't use them.

They're cheap, mediocre, unreliable, and mediocre.

They have no guns and just a 5+ inv save to protect them, which means they'll deep strike in and stand there, get shot to death, and never earn their points back.

They're just a free KP to the enemy.

They have their uses. They're relatively cheap and can help swing a combat due to their assault+ds.

But lots of people will target them to kill em off for a good combat resolution

If you take multiple units of 13+ and have some icons on close-combat troops in rhinos, you can do a plausible imitation of a 3rd edition daemon rush. But you have to build your army around it.

Also you can take a smallish unit of 10-12 for claiming last-minute objectives, or camping your home objective, as long as you plan on keeping them in cover. Going to ground in cover gives you the 3+ of a power-armored troops, as long as nobody brings a flamer, and you have the same T4 as other chaos troops. They're cheaper than cult troops for this purpose and more reliable than CSMs because they're fearless.

TheBloodGod:

You are aware that Lesser Summoned Daemons can assault on the turn that they arrive, right?

Because they have to come in off Icons, they always land exactly where you want them, if not when.

So if they're landing and getting shot up before they can do anything, the failure is with you as a player for not positioning your Icons where you want your Lesser Daemons summoned.

take small squads to land on objectives and take cover or large units to drop in and swing an assautl in your favor. They have their uses and can be good, but you have to think.

Yeah, the only problem is they lose the 3+ save and the pistol shot and it saves you two points. I use them, infact my homebrews lore is based around my sorc summoning them. The bonus that does make them worth 13 pts is showing up in hotspots and assaulting that turn. The enemy may think they have you flanked, and pinned down, but BAM! Instant counter attack! You can't predict it, they can't predict it so they can only be so prepared for it. Generally it's not enough.

I use them for the same reasons listed above. Plus you can tie up one unit and then take the icon unit to attack i different one

You save more than two points, since a squad of Chaos Marines should have two special weapons, or a special weapon and a Heavy weapon. In addition you don't spend points on an Aspiring Champion and his wargear, or an Icon. That's not including points spent on a transport.

Even if you run the bare minimum of a squad of ten Chaos Space Marines, then you have the points for eleven Lesser Daemons. They'll hit as hard on the charge as the Chaos Space Marines, and with Fearless they'll tie up the enemy better for your real assault troops to get stuck in.

It's also fun to do a Daemon Bomb, turbo-boosting a squadron of Tzeetchian-aligned Bikers, accompanied by a Lord or Sorcerer with a Personal Icon, into the enemy and careen everywhere crapping Daemons onto the board.

@nurglitch: Nurgle bikers.

I have seen them used as a living screen. Nurgle player drove rhinos up, summoned demons off them the following turn, then parked the rhino near the demons. the plague marines disembarked, rapid-fired their target, and ran the demons after shooting the plague marines to form them into a screen that gave his plague marines 4+ cover from all the return shots (against tau, it was pretty handy).

Also, DS+assault is nice if you just need to tie up a nasty CC unis for a turn.

Yup, I use Lesser Daemons to provide cover for Terminators in my Chaos Space Marine army, when I get lucky enough to drop them in the same turn.

I prefer the Tzeentchian Bikers because they already get the toughness bonus from the Bikes, and the Icon of Tzeentch gives them an invulnerable save, which is very handy in this day and age of Land Raider Redeemers.

Also because they have an invulnerable save, daemons are also handy as part of a combined assault for whittling down or tying up units that CSMs have a hard time with in assault: terminators, genestealers, monstrous creatures.

Just don't let your opponent allocate to the daemons to gain combat res.

A friend of mine uses a bunch of stealers and an outflanking Broodlord. I devoted all of my lesser daemons that game (20) to keeping the Broodlord from rolling my marines on my objective. They actually managed to hold them off for 4 turns, winning me the game.

DarkHound wrote:A friend of mine uses a bunch of stealers and an outflanking Broodlord. I devoted all of my lesser daemons that game (20) to keeping the Broodlord from rolling my marines on my objective. They actually managed to hold them off for 4 turns, winning me the game.

The thing to note is that Lesser Daemons are not free + they have no shooting ability at all.

That unit of 20 you parked on your objective cost 260 points.

For 250 points you can get 10 Noise Marines w/ sonic blasters, which is 30 S4 AP5 shots at 24" if standing still, or 20 S4 AP5 shots while moving backwards 6" a turn.

One round of shooting will take out 10 genestealers. Max brood size is 12. He's been reduced to 1 Broodlord + 1 Genestealer before combat even starts. If you used Daemons instead, Genestealers with Flesh Hooks (frag grenades) will be able to charge in un-shot because daemons have no guns, and massacre your unit of daemons completely.

Because you're fearless with only 5+ saves, you lose combat big and then several more daemons (or all of them) are dead from it.

@TheBloodGod, your maths is off on the points cos, allow me to help:
Lesser daemon = 8 (LD)
Squad = 20 (S)

now; LD x S = points cost
8 x 20 = 160 pts

Now, this your comparison, lesser daemons arnt meant to sit back and shoot, unlike noise marines, hence no guns (LD) vs guns (NM), this is a poor and pointless comparison.

If you wish to compare them, you need to look at LIKE units, such as assaulting ones, eg raptors.

Squig_herder wrote:@TheBloodGod, your maths is off on the points cos, allow me to help:
Lesser daemon = 8 (LD)
Squad = 20 (S)

now; LD x S = points cost
8 x 20 = 160 pts

Now, this your comparison, lesser daemons arnt meant to sit back and shoot, unlike noise marines, hence no guns (LD) vs guns (NM), this is a poor and pointless comparison.

If you wish to compare them, you need to look at LIKE units, such as assaulting ones, eg raptors.

Wow. I have no idea what the hell you just tried to do with your math there.

Lesser Daemons are LD 10 and cost 13 points each.

20 * 13 = 260

Which buys you a Land Raider to put those marines into and laugh at genestealers. Or that noise marine squad. Or 10 Nurgle Marines w/ 2 Plasma. Or 2 dreadnoughts. Or 8 terminators. Or 2 vindicators. Or 3 oblits. Etc.

Squig_herder wrote:@TheBloodGod, your maths is off on the points cos, allow me to help:
Lesser daemon = 8 (LD)
Squad = 20 (S)

now; LD x S = points cost
8 x 20 = 160 pts

Now, this your comparison, lesser daemons arnt meant to sit back and shoot, unlike noise marines, hence no guns (LD) vs guns (NM), this is a poor and pointless comparison.

If you wish to compare them, you need to look at LIKE units, such as assaulting ones, eg raptors.

Actually, his comparison was a valid one, because he described how the noise marines would accomplish the same goal as the daemons (nullifying/destroying the genestealers) only more efficiently. Accomplishing goals is more important than HOW you accomplish them.

Also Lesser daemons are quite a bit more expensive than 8 points per model... I'm not sure what codex you're getting your info from. A squad of 20 is indeed 260 points.

Squig_herder wrote:@TheBloodGod, your maths is off on the points cos, allow me to help:
Lesser daemon = 8 (LD)
Squad = 20 (S)

now; LD x S = points cost
8 x 20 = 160 pts

Now, this your comparison, lesser daemons arnt meant to sit back and shoot, unlike noise marines, hence no guns (LD) vs guns (NM), this is a poor and pointless comparison.

If you wish to compare them, you need to look at LIKE units, such as assaulting ones, eg raptors.

260 points for something with no anti-tank ability whatsoever, no shooting ability whatsoever, and getting saves only 1/3rd the time?

Is there a "suck" category so I'm not comparing apples to oranges?

I might be able to understand people who use them for shock factor by having, say, a raptor squad fly 8" away from something then burp out daemons to attack it. But if you're going to be summon your daemons in your back, to shuffle around like zombies with no guns or special abilities, the opponent should be winning.

Deep strike a dreadnaught on one side of your back. Run over and assault the daemons squatting in trees. Daemons have no weapons which can hurt a dreadnaught ever. GG your objective is contested or controlled by dread player at end of game. So many better uses for 260 points than that.

For example. 7 Terminators w/ 6 Combi-meltas, 1 Chainfist, 1 Heavy Flamer. (exchange combi-meltas for combi-plasmas at will.) Those can deep strike in, blow up daemon princes, landraiders, dreadnaughts, elite biker squads, etc etc.

Edit: Sorry marvin.

I'm not sure why you quoted me, I'm not the one pretending like they're worth their weight. (Although if they actually were only 8 points they would be fantastic).

Lesser Daemons let you run a crappy version of the 4th ed daemon bomb or a rhino rush. Still not worth 13 points though. Anything even remotely resembling a decent assault unit is going to rack up combat res like crazy and wipe out the squad, especially because they're fearless.

I happen to be one of those weird buggers who swear by them. At least with my deathguard. Plasma is the bane of my plague marines, as are power weapons. So I drop a small squad of daemons in between me and the enemy, shoot with the plague marines, assault with the daemons, and don't have to worry as much.

As long as I get my icons into a reasonably decent position, the daemons become a good jab that the opponent can't counter. Anyways, I play guard too, so I'm used to loosing killpoint missions.

I was only bringing that game up as an example. That isn't how I use them all the time, I was trying to point out the versitility of having some cheap (comparitively) units that can be at any hotspot in the game.
You can talk about how expensive they are for thier stat-line and what could do thier job better, but you're missing a point Mathhammer can't provide. They deepstrike 100% reliably and assault on the turn they come in. You need counter charge before the next turn? Dice gods willing, you have it! You need something to screen your troops from that Demolisher round? Dice Gods willing, you still have it! And your opponent can't stop you from getting them there short of blowing everything up, at which point you don't need them there.

The Icons are one of the problems with Daemons. They only deep strike within 6" of an icon - even if your icon isn't in the right place. If you fight special characters or assassins, your enemy can pick off your icons and remove even those choices.

Daemons are unreliable due to Deep Strike. It would be different if they could strike anywhere OR use the icons like homers. But limiting them to within 6" of whatever icon is still alive and on the table often leaves you in the lurch.

It can be very effective sometimes - but there's enough randomness in the game already. Why voulenteer for more?

Cause randomness is fun. Besides that, if the enemy doesn't study Chaos, he won't suspect how absolutely random everything and anything is! Chaos isn't evil, it's random. Hilariously funny too (unless you're Khorne, then it's all serious bizzyness).
I don't see the need to stay near the Icons as that big of a deal. If you use Daemons, you make sure they can come in anywhere you might need them. They aren't strong enough to be a deepstrike sneak attack (we leave that to the Karmoon Special). Yeah, I do agree letting them Deepstrike anywhere too would be cool, but atleast they can't have mishaps.

Well I can't address speculative questions about "suck" categories and the theory of how daemons aren't supposed to work. I can only speak from my experience of using daemons in actual 5th edition games. Here are some of my experiences:

-I've seen a couple of 16-18 model daemon units suck in and chew through one of those giant 50-model commisar conscript units in a couple of turns, leaving my cult marines free to run around and grab objectives.

-I've seen shooty army players tabled when the single rhino that gets through delivers 5 assault units (assaulting that turn) into the face of their castle.

-I've seen daemons fight a deathwing army to a standstill--a deathwing army that my close-combat oriented cult army would have had a really hard time with otherwise--tying up terminators on top of objectives and leaving my cult marines free to chase down landraiders and grab other objectives.

So if you're playing a cookie-cutter plague marine lash obliterator list, daemons will probably weaken your army. In fact, in small numbers or in a shooty or combined army, you really don't want daemons because there are better things to spend points on (with one exception of a particular player I know of). But for a dedicated, mobile assault army, it's like getting extra close-combat units with abilities that compliment your power armor guys and that can deliver an assault from any rhino on the table at the top of the turn.

I run two squads of 15 in my Word Bearers army. I like them!

Oh yeah, and because daemons don't count against your troop limit, you can spam troop choices. My last year's 'ard boyz army had 8 troops, all fearless. Grabbing objectives was just a question of assaulting whatever was on top of them.

It doesn't seem that these lesser daemons get much love.


Anyway, adressing the question: Yes, I can tell they suck. a poor save with not too great cc ability and at 13 per model pretty much sums up why people hate them. But that's not the point.

I want to field daemons in my list for fluff. And because they can Assault on arrival. Plus I like the new models.

that aside. honestly, the question is "how can I use them?" not "are daemons any good?" I'm here because I want to know if anyone has any ideas on how to implement them into my tactics.

That is all.

Also, thanks for the replies ervyone!

Well, what are your over-all tactics?

Well, like it has been stated earlier in the thread, they are good support for HtH builds. What is does the other aspects of your army look like?