Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Razing one of Tzeentch's cities, killing six favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh and burning down the FRIGGIN' GARDEN OF NURGLE, however, just doesn't happen. If he's trapped in the Warp so often, why doesn't the Chaos Gods just step on him? It makes no sense! DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR! ERROR!

Makes sense to me. If you're the other gods(who by fluff are always trying to get the upperhand and be the strongest), wouldn't it be in your best interest to distract your rival while someone is busy weakening them and their court? And other than Tzeentch, they're not all knowing.

AlmightyWalrus wrote:I can accept Draigo beating Mortarion. Two Grey Knight Grand Masters, the best of the best who exist for no reason but to hunt down and kill Daemons, with only one of them surviving the encounter, isn't too much of an outrage.


Razing one of Tzeentch's cities, killing six favoured daemonettes of Slaanesh and burning down the FRIGGIN' GARDEN OF NURGLE, however, just doesn't happen. If he's trapped in the Warp so often, why doesn't the Chaos Gods just step on him? It makes no sense! DOES NOT COMPUTE! ERROR! ERROR!

I would question how he can burn down the garden and destroy a city when hes only armed with a giant forcesword / stormbolter thingie, but like all other things involving Kaldo Draigo he uses his MIND POWERS ...

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, he literally could step into the shadows. It's been mentioned in multiple places that he essentially appears from thin air, and that even Magnus didn't spot him using his 'Inner Sight'.

If he is already in the shadows waiting then yeah. Same as him being able to walk around without anyone realising he's there until they notice the Deathshroud. He's like an annoying Butler, I don't think he literally disappears, which seems to me what you are suggesting. With Magnus are you referring to the encounter at Nikaea or Ullanor?

Kanluwen wrote:You have to remember that Mortarion was one of those who was first 'corrupted' by the Lodges. It's likely that he was in on the whole plan to corrupt Horus from the beginning.

Really, where did you get that from? He likes the number seven but never have I heard that he was first corrupted by the Lodges. Typhon was way down the line before Mortarion and that is mentioned.

Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, but that might not be what Mortarion is about. He may just be exhibiting an aspect as the 'avatar of Death'.

So Mortarion just stood around looking ill and scary? Mortarion was a fighter or that much is said in the IA on the Death Guard. The Legions are supposed to be the embodiment of their Primarch. I haven't read FotE for awhile but isn't he mashing up the Jorghall on their ship with his manreaper?

Kanluwen wrote:
Well no, the Relictors didn't purify the weapons before using them. And it's not as uncommon as you might think. There's fluff about the Guard using reclaimed/salvaged armoured vehicles that had been in Chaos hands before, but the Mechanicus and Inquisition do a pretty thorough job purifying the stuff before it ever is considered for frontline use again.

Wasn't aware of the purifying mention on Draigo, so I concede a little in that regard.

Kanluwen wrote:Some of them, yeah. Others are just an example of "Bwuh?".

A lot less Bwuh then some of the latest fluff. Actually, I don't think there has been an IA that I haven't liked. Even the Blood Ravens one was good.

Pilau Rice wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Actually, he literally could step into the shadows. It's been mentioned in multiple places that he essentially appears from thin air, and that even Magnus didn't spot him using his 'Inner Sight'.

If he is already in the shadows waiting then yeah. Same as him being able to walk around without anyone realising he's there until they notice the Deathshroud. I don't think he literally disappears, which seems to me what you are suggesting. With Magnus are you referring to the encounter at Nikaea or Ullanor?

Nikaea and Ullanor both, then in "False Gods" and "Flight of the Eisenstein" the same general thing was discussed.

Kanluwen wrote:You have to remember that Mortarion was one of those who was first 'corrupted' by the Lodges. It's likely that he was in on the whole plan to corrupt Horus from the beginning.

Really, where did you get that from? He likes the number seven but never have I heard that he was first corrupted by the Lodges. Typhon was way down the line before Mortarion and that is mentioned.

"Flight of the Eisenstein", there's a minor mention of Mortarion handing off a Lodge coin to one of the Word Bearers.

Kanluwen wrote:
Yeah, but that might not be what Mortarion is about. He may just be exhibiting an aspect as the 'avatar of Death'.

So Mortarion just stood around looking ill and scary? Mortarion was a fighter or that much is said in the IA on the Death Guard.

See, now you're just misunderstanding on purpose

Mortarion, while being a fairly capable fighter, was nowhere near top tier like Russ, Angron, The Lion, Sanguinius, or even Horus(Despite what people think: Horus? Not that great of a fighter. He was more of a tactician, always taking the long view rather than focusing on there here and now).

Mortarion was more along the lines of Corax, Alpharius/Omegon or Curze: an expert at exploiting the psychology of an enemy to make the best effect when fighting them.

Kanluwen wrote:
Well no, the Relictors didn't purify the weapons before using them. And it's not as uncommon as you might think. There's fluff about the Guard using reclaimed/salvaged armoured vehicles that had been in Chaos hands before, but the Mechanicus and Inquisition do a pretty thorough job purifying the stuff before it ever is considered for frontline use again.

Wasn't aware of the purifying mention on Draigo, so I concede a little in that regard.

From what I'm recalling: he uses the 'purified' steel from the Bloodthirster's axe to forge himself a new sword.

Kanluwen wrote:Some of them, yeah. Others are just an example of "Bwuh?".

A lot less Bwuh then some of the latest fluff.

Maybe so, but a lot of the latest fluff is a result of a sort of 'paradigm shift' in the way that GW does Codices. No longer do they seemingly have one person doing the rules, another doing the background, and then a third overseeing the operation--but they have one person doing the entirety of the book and then it just gets handed off to the printers.

It's not like banishing Primarchs is anything new. Magnus gets banished twice IIRC. In the Ragnar books and during the Battle of the Fang, where he was defeated by the then Great Wolf of the Space Wolves(who died also).

Kanluwen wrote:
Nikaea and Ullanor both, then in "False Gods" and "Flight of the Eisenstein" the same general thing was discussed.

Will have a scan tonight and get back to you.

Kanluwen wrote:"Flight of the Eisenstein", there's a minor mention of Mortarion handing off a Lodge coin to one of the Word Bearers.

As above

Kanluwen wrote:
See, now you're just misunderstanding on purpose

Not at all, I just didn't get your statement, I got confuzzled by it. It didn't really explain what you meant.

Kanluwen wrote:Mortarion, while being a fairly capable fighter, was nowhere near top tier like Russ, Angron, The Lion, Sanguinius, or even Horus(Despite what people think: Horus? Not that great of a fighter. He was more of a tactician, always taking the long view rather than focusing on there here and now).

Mortarion was more along the lines of Corax, Alpharius/Omegon or Curze: an expert at exploiting the psychology of an enemy to make the best effect when fighting them.

I wouldn't even say that Mortarion is that sort. He is a straight down the middle Primarch. No fancy tactics, no fancy plans. Take the fight to the enemy and ground them down, that's Mortarion and the Death Guard.

Kanluwen wrote:
From what I'm recalling: he uses the 'purified' steel from the Bloodthirster's axe to forge himself a new sword.

Must've really been some good steel

Kanluwen wrote:
Maybe so, but a lot of the latest fluff is a result of a sort of 'paradigm shift' in the way that GW does Codices. No longer do they seemingly have one person doing the rules, another doing the background, and then a third overseeing the operation--but they have one person doing the entirety of the book and then it just gets handed off to the printers.

Suffers for it as well, most of it has been good don't get me wrong, but certain parts are like wtf ...

I wouldn't even say that Mortarion is that sort. He is a straight down the middle Primarch. No fancy tactics, no fancy plans. Take the fight to the enemy and ground them down, that's Mortarion and the Death Guard.

Ehhhh. When Mortarion's not directly in command or the situation necessitated it, yeah I'd agree with that.

When he was directly in command and they weren't just serving as linebreakers--he and his bodyguard tended towards coming onto the field wearing Terminator armour stylized to make them look like a 'barbaric representation of Death'.

He clearly knew what he was doing in that case. It's why he and many of his favored carried scythes, for that matter.

Kanluwen wrote:

I wouldn't even say that Mortarion is that sort. He is a straight down the middle Primarch. No fancy tactics, no fancy plans. Take the fight to the enemy and ground them down, that's Mortarion and the Death Guard.

Ehhhh. When Mortarion's not directly in command or the situation necessitated it, yeah I'd agree with that.

When he was directly in command and they weren't just serving as linebreakers--he and his bodyguard tended towards coming onto the field wearing Terminator armour stylized to make them look like a 'barbaric representation of Death'.

He clearly knew what he was doing in that case. It's why he and many of his favored carried scythes, for that matter.

Come on, the Jorgall tactic was 'shoot torpedos with men in directly into the ship and kill stuff' that's not fancy

Mortarion always used his scythe and 'Lantern' and thats the way the Deathshroud always were armoured. Why give them a name like Douthshroud if you didn't want them to be scary darey.

I'm not sure what we are trying to convince each other of here

Seriously, most people complaining have just heard it third hand or are failing at reading comprehension.

You know he didn't single-handedly defeat Mort, right? Or the first daemon prince? And he almost was killed by the same daemon prince the second time? And that DP banished him to the RoC with a broken sword? And that Draigo spent 'Uncounted ages' levelling up in the RoC doing some of the things he has done.

Remember that time flows differently in the warp. Although he's only been gone for 100 years realtime, it is pretty clear from the fluff on Draigo that it has been thousands of years 'uncounted ages' effective time for him. Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

With the exception of the heart carving thing, most of Draigo's fluff makes sense if you actually read it.
Is he OTT? Yes. Is 40k meant to be OTT? Yes.

Why does his mini's face look so tired? Because he has walked for eons. He is the archetypal wandering hero, forced to never rest in his pursuit of justice.

Also, the other half of his story is that he is a tragic hero. Nothing he does lasts. Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

Why don't they crush him? Two reasons, I think. Nothing he does is permanent in the Realms of Chaos and they probably find perverse enjoyment in the fact that this great champion of order is stuck in their domain for eternity.

pretre wrote:Seriously, most people complaining have just heard it third hand .

Yeah, this is my failing - i'm just going on what I have been told or read on him thus far on the site.

So I can only comment on what I know, maybe it's wrong too, but that's not always fun though is it.

From what I was told his fluff seemed a bit implausible but the more you learn the more it gets ok I guess. Not great, as still don't necessarily agree with it, but ok.

A nice explanation though pretre of what could be

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

The only other Space Marines that are "thousands of years old" are dreadnoughts. Other than that, I like your post. I personally enjoyed Draigo's fluff. It's nice sometimes seeing an all badass Good character.(even though this has happened a lot lately!)

Gorechild wrote:

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Eh.

It's not entirely unbelievable. One of the other Ruinous Powers could have been 'guarding' him to use as a cat's paw, or simply put: Nurgle may not have considered him a real threat.

CajunMan wrote:

Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

The only other Space Marines that are "thousands of years old" are dreadnoughts. Other than that, I like your post. I personally enjoyed Draigo's fluff. It's nice sometimes seeing an all badass Good character.(even though this has happened a lot lately!)

Dante is listed as pretty old. Lysander is 1000+ years old.

Definitely good points for both sides of the argument and I can see the trueness on each side.

Gorechild wrote:Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

would be rather awesome though

Kanluwen wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Eh.

It's not entirely unbelievable. One of the other Ruinous Powers could have been 'guarding' him to use as a cat's paw, or simply put: Nurgle may not have considered him a real threat.

I think Kan's right there. I think the chaos gods probably find it amusing or don't care. Imagine you had a GK wandering the RoC and could mess with him however you want... Put all these 'great works' in front of him and let him think he won and then as soon as he turns around, his works are erased.

That's gotta mess with a guy's mind.

Not to mention if Khorne got in the garden, he could do lasting damage, as I imagine that the RoC are divine-malleable. Some mortal? Oh noes, he burned it down, lemme just regrow it and done.

pretre wrote:

CajunMan wrote:

Think of all the other SM that are thousands of years old and how bad ass they are, he may be older.

The only other Space Marines that are "thousands of years old" are dreadnoughts. Other than that, I like your post. I personally enjoyed Draigo's fluff. It's nice sometimes seeing an all badass Good character.(even though this has happened a lot lately!)

Dante is listed as pretty old. Lysander is 1000+ years old.

Dante is the only exception, and he's not thousands of years old. He's around 1100. And he's a Blood Angel, who have longer lives than other Astartes. And Lysander is not 1000+. He was trapped in the Warp. While in realspace 1000 years passed for him it was not nearly that long. Otherwise, he would easily be Chapter Master.

There's actually nothing supporting "Blood Angels have longer lives than other Astartes".

They tend to have a higher average lifespan simply because they withdraw troops from the frontlines constantly to try to rehabilitate/prevent the Black Rage.

Fair enough, although age/tenure doesn't get you auto-promoted. Space Marine's don't have unions.

13th Company are probably older, but are in the same boat as the Traitor Legions. They could be older, they could be younger, it all depends on what goes on in the warp.

Either way though, I think Draigo is effectively much older than the oldest living marine. That might both make him a badass and make him tired as hell.

Kanluwen wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

pretre wrote: Even the burning in Nurgle's garden (which it doesn't say he burns the whole thing, just that he 'unleashes sanctified flame' there and the smoke and screaming carried on the warp winds) and the collapse of the city are quickly erased by the chaos gods.

IMO the whole problem is that he managed to get there in the first place, the big four have been fighting since they were created and not even managed to get into the garden of Nurgle. Its like saying he took a stroll up the mountain of skulls and set Khorne's throne on fire....it's just dumb.

Eh.

It's not entirely unbelievable. One of the other Ruinous Powers could have been 'guarding' him to use as a cat's paw, or simply put: Nurgle may not have considered him a real threat.

I'll admit I've read nothing more about Draigo than I've seen people say here on Dakka (basically every other usefull site is bocked at work ). If it is something like Tzeentch trickery then it might be understandable, but the general impression I've got is that they've just created some bloke out of the blue that completely contradicts the established fluff. Seeing as its written by Ward I haven't really considered that it might be well written and logical

Gorechild, I encourage you to reserve judgement. It is OTT, but it is internally consistent and fits the universe.

Well let me put it like this.

Flies get into my home. Ants get into my home, despite me putting down poison etc.

But...bears, foxes, raccoons, and pandas(the most lethal killers of all!) do not get in.

Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

Aww, Kan, we're on the same page. /hugs

I still hate the Dreadknight. With a passion.

It's stupid and makes me want to hit it with a rock.

Kanluwen wrote:I still hate the Dreadknight. With a passion.

It's stupid and makes me want to hit it with a rock.

But would you agree that Paris is the capital of France?

Great! We're in agreement again.

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

pretre wrote:Gorechild, I encourage you to reserve judgement. It is OTT, but it is internally consistent and fits the universe.

I will untill such a time that I can read the book (I really won't be rushing to do so ) and see it all in context. If it is as stupid as it seem's at first glance then I'll just disregard it like I do with some of the other stupid fluff (Mephiston - I'm looking at you!).

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Wasn't by himself, he was with the chapter at the time. If the whole (or a large part) of the GK's chapter was wandering around the RoC, Nurgle might be more concerned.

pretre wrote:

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Wasn't by himself, he was with the chapter at the time. If the whole (or a large part) of the GK's chapter was wandering around the RoC, Nurgle might be more concerned.

Or the Chaos Gods are too concerned keeping an eye on each other, which is why they use minions to do the Black Crusading and the defiling and the warp fissuring and stuff.

The reason I guess to why he carved the name into Mortarion's heart is because he couldn't do anything better, this is the Primarch that was chosen and exalted by Nurgle, the guy probably could take a Titan stomp in the face and still take a walk around the hood spreading diseased candy all around. So if you can't defeat the bastard, leave a memento.

Still a stupid story, mind you.

Gorechild wrote:

Kanluwen wrote: Why?
Because I do not view flies and ants as a threat. They're a nuisance, at best. An annoyance at worst.

That's all Draigo is to Nurgle. He can't banish or kill Nurgle, and even trying will just be a tickle.

A fly that can carve words into the chest of one of his most powerful minions

Yeah, in realspace.

Mortarion may have, at one point, been flesh and blood--but now he does have to 'obey the laws of the Warp' in a sense. He may leave behind a corporeal body, but it's just formed of the stuff of the Warp either way.

pretre wrote:Gorechild, I encourage you to reserve judgement. It is OTT, but it is internally consistent and fits the universe.

I will untill such a time that I can read the book (I really won't be rushing to do so ) and see it all in context. If it is as stupid as it seem's at first glance then I'll just disregard it like I do with some of the other stupid fluff (Mephiston - I'm looking at you!).

Mephiston has always been over the top though. Even in the BA minidex.

Kanluwen wrote:I still hate the Dreadknight. With a passion.

It's stupid and makes me want to hit it with a rock.

Heh, something that we agree on.

But I think this is my problem with the Draigo fluff as well.

I know that they have to improve the codex and make it better, adding new stuff to it, but just upping everything to 11 and creating uber stuff and uber characters that there has never been a inkling of before makes me cry a little inside. Some of it is getting a little stupid, I think that's my problem. I'm worried that it's going to get even more unbelievable.

And yes, I know this is all in a make believe land, but it's my hobby and interest and something that I enjoy and would like to for many years to come