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Quite simply: how does Chaos Daemons work?

At a glance, Daemons lack ranged anti-tank; are there tricks to milking low buy-in shooting out of the FoC? The most obvious choice is the Herald of Tzeentch, but taking them eats into your MC saturation.

How valuable is speed in Chaos Daemons? I really like the idea of Seekers, Fiends, and Flesh Hounds, except that other more durable units Deepstrike too. Do Daemons have trouble catching their prey once they hit the board, or does everyone just castle up anyway?

I feel like Bloodletters don't bring anything useful to the table. Plaguebearers score, Horrors shoot, and everything Bloodletters kill something else kills better. The same should be more true of Daemonettes, except they can bring down tanks with relative ease. I feel like Daemonettes should be the go-to Troop choice after you're comfortable with your number of Plaguebearers because they add to your limited ability to open tanks.

What about Soul Grinders? I feel like Daemon Princes are always a better option because Soul Grinders are so vulnerable to Meltaguns. Should they be taken in multiples, or are they fine on their own? Should you treat them like a gun platform?

Daemonic Assault: dividing your waves is very subjective, but what I'm interested in is even more so. How large should your unit sizes be considering Daemonic Assault and Killpoints?

I do not know how mutch they need ranged. Everything deep strikes anyway.

Well, you Deepstrike but you can't assault on the same turn. You have to eat the entirety of the enemy's shooting while you wait. Then once you can, assaulting a Rhino nets you the Rhino, but you lose whatever assaulted it to the squad inside. Daemon shooting isn't about hurting the enemy, it is about making sure they can't hurt you back.

The hot list right now is Fateweaver and the Flying Jerks. You take Fatey, a Laser Chicken, and three Tzeentch Princes with flight, bolt and gaze. Under two thousand points, just remove the flights. These pop transports and your Bloodcrushers, Fiends, and Seekers eat the juicy innards. Use small units of Plaguebearers to hold objectives.

Plaguebearers are definetly the best for objective games.
BUt one thing a bout the deamon army is everything has a relative purpose (unless its an all purpose unit)

DarkHound wrote:At a glance, Daemons lack ranged anti-tank; are there tricks to milking low buy-in shooting out of the FoC? The most obvious choice is the Herald of Tzeentch, but taking them eats into your MC saturation.

Tanks and mech lists do present problems for daemons lists, but not insurmountable ones. Tzeentch options (daemon princes with Mark of Tz, horrors, and particularly heralds on chariots) can be armed with Bolt of Tzeentch, which is reasonably effective at armor 10-12 or so. For armor 13-14, getting monstrous creatures (greater daemons, daemon princes) close enough to rip tanks apart is the most effective tactic. For transports, rending units (fiends, seekers, daemonettes) work effectively.
Soul Grinders are another option, though their relatively low ballistic skill make them, literally, hit-or-miss. Again, often the best thing to do is fleet the Grinders in and try to charge vehicles.
Screamers (often overlooked) offer another tool -- they're inexpensive points-wise, mobile, and they tend to hang around while opponents worry about bigger, scarier, closer threats.

DarkHound wrote:How valuable is speed in Chaos Daemons? I really like the idea of Seekers, Fiends, and Flesh Hounds, except that other more durable units Deepstrike too. Do Daemons have trouble catching their prey once they hit the board, or does everyone just castle up anyway?

It's a good idea to field at least one or two "beast" units in a daemon list. Summoning (deep strike) makes this a "mobile" army as of turn 1, but once they've landed, many daemon units become relatively static. Having mobile threats that threaten both troops and light mech is definitely handy in the mid- to late-game phase of a battle.

The dynamic of daemon game play takes a little while to get used to. When I started playing daemons, I felt very vulnerable as I summoned. A key to making the army work is to figure out how to land in configurations/deployments/formations that will be able to absorb that initial round of fire. This means throwing down units that can soak up firepower. Or overloading your opponent's deployment with threats (e.g., on a relatively vulnerable flank). Or choosing which tools to apply at which parts of the enemy. Drop stuff in front of the enemy that puts him off balance, forces him to react, makes him shift his units around, draws him in directions he'd rather not go.... in short, disrupt your opponent's plans. Sow doubt and fear.

To make that happen, you may well have to sacrifice a unit or two of your own -- maybe even a unit or two you think of as being strategically vital. Be prepared for this. That's the cost of getting the battle started. And keep your head in the game, even if the battle looks as though it's going badly at first. Daemons often have a weak turn or two or three, then swing things around later in the game. Don't forget you have units in reserve -- probably dangerous ones. With any luck, by the time they arrive your opponent will be scrambling to adjust to developments already on the table, creating openings and vulnerabilities for you to exploit.

DarkHound wrote:I feel like Bloodletters don't bring anything useful to the table. Plaguebearers score, Horrors shoot, and everything Bloodletters kill something else kills better. The same should be more true of Daemonettes, except they can bring down tanks with relative ease. I feel like Daemonettes should be the go-to Troop choice after you're comfortable with your number of Plaguebearers because they add to your limited ability to open tanks.

I've had limited success with Bloodletters. They're very vulnerable to shooting. If you do field them, form them up in packs of 10+ or better yet 15+. That way they can weather a round of incoming firepower and still hit reasonably hard. If shooting takes down, say, 9 bloodletters, but leaves, say, 6 to charge an enemy, those 6 are going to do a lot of damage when they hit.

DarkHound wrote:What about Soul Grinders? I feel like Daemon Princes are always a better option because Soul Grinders are so vulnerable to Meltaguns. Should they be taken in multiples, or are they fine on their own? Should you treat them like a gun platform?

Grinders are more effective in multiples, yes. They are, after all, vehicles, and so capable of being taken out with a single shot. On the other hand, armor 13 is much better than armor 12, particularly when the "vehicle" in question is daemonically possessed. Grinders can be very effective because many units have no effective answer for them; and because they are too dangerous to ignore.
And don't think of them merely as gun platforms. They are much more versatile. Some daemon players get tempted to land them at a distance and lob shots. IMO, this limits their uses and makes it easier for opponents to counter them. Don't forget, they fleet. The form a great anti-horde unit (remember you can fire your Soul Harverster and the Maw Cannon, as the latter is not an ordnance weapon), and a great unit for charging into landraiders, monoliths, etc. Try putting them on the front lines, alongside daemon princes and greater daemons and bloodcrushers etc. Make your opponent choose which one to bring down.

DarkHound wrote:Daemonic Assault: dividing your waves is very subjective, but what I'm interested in is even more so. How large should your unit sizes be considering Daemonic Assault and Killpoints?

Most internet lists follow the pattern of fielding small troop units, and saving most points for the killy/hammer units (greater daemons, fiends, crushers, daemon princes, etc.). My own style of play is a bit different. Summoning up a massive block of Plaguebearers right on the edge of enemy lines -- 14 strong, with an icon -- really forces opponents to scramble.
Remember, you're going to have to absorb some firepower on your way into battle. And most of your units have no "grenades," so charging into enemies in cover is also going to be costly. You need to have enough models in units to be dangerous at diminished levels.
Fiends and crushers are also worth fielding in relatively large numbers -- 6+ in the former case; 4+ in the latter.

Just give up on shooting entirely, as you'll have to gimp your army to make it even somewhat effective, and just make an all cavalry CC army. That's what I did. IMO if you wanna play daemons, play to their strengths, dont try and shore up their weaknesses. Land raiders will ALWAYS be a problem for daemons. Tough.

To the above, not necessarily, Flamers of Tzeentch are a very good choice in a unit of three. Drop them in close to your target, flame them, and die in the subsequent round because your opponent goes WTF!? You just killed 5 Terminators with one round of shooting from 3 models!?!?

Actually, that was me the first time I played vs Chaos Daemons at my LFGS... Those things are purified evil... Oh yeah, and they cost somewhere around 100 Points for those 3...

Flamers are good, but then you have to build the list around them, instead of just throwing them in, for them to optimally effective.

How do Daemons work? I'm tempted to say they don't. Bolt Heralds and Bolt Princes to annoy/zap armor, Fiends and Flesh Hounds to suicide into vehicles, Plaguebearers to score, and Bloodletters to beat up Footmarines (just pray a Dread doesn't charge them...).

Daemons can crush any army in 4 turns. You could then set up against the exact same army and get destroyed. Its just the nature of those deamons. I have seen Fateweaver go toe to toe with Abbadon for several rounds of melee, I have also seen him die to a hex rifle in one shot.

With daemons you need to enjoy thinking on your feet and changing your plan on the spot. You may not get the right wave, your units may scatter to places you didnt want them to go. A unit of fiends may fail to have a singal rend, or may get 12 rends in one melee, which situation do you hit and run? These are things you need to be comfortable with, and when you are the army is fun to play.

THe nice thing with deamons is even though "you" dont know how things will go, your opponent wont either.

Against Annhilation, Tzeentch has the playing field all covered. MSU of Horrors with Bolts will fry tanks (short of land raiders) like crazy.

For Raider Popping, nothing does the job better than a Thirster. Unholy Might means that you've basically got a Melta lascannon heading that way.

Bloodletters are completely worthless unless you're going Mono-Khorne, in which they're the only troop choice you got. Bloodcrushers does the job better.

Actually, point-for-point, Bloodletters kill more. They also do not compete slotwise with Fiends, which actually threaten vehicles (and can avoid being eternally tarpitted by a Dreadnought).

Horrors are are terrible platform for bolt, due to their cost, toughness/unit size (5 T3 guys means that there's a very good chance that a good round of anti-infantry fire will remove the Bolt-Horror from the unit), low BS/shot output, the fact they didn't Run after Deep Striking meaning they're multiblast fodder...

Also, Bloodthirsters are terrible vs Land Raiders. You need 6s to hit, and you spend at least one turn exposed to all the enemy AT firepower, (as there is nothing else worth shooting AT at in such an army), and such. Also, Raider lists tend to take a Nullzone Librarian.

6's means that the raider is constantly going at cruising speed. And the Thirster wont get much mroe shots than any other MC in the list, which are the only other sound ways to deal with a Raider.

Quite simply: how does Chaos Daemons work?

At a glance, Daemons lack ranged anti-tank; are there tricks to milking low buy-in shooting out of the FoC? The most obvious choice is the Herald of Tzeentch, but taking them eats into your MC saturation.

I think an effective take all comers daemon list needs to be based around either 3 Soul Grinders or Heralds/DP/Small Horror Units to get Bolt of Tzeentch. Counting on taking on tanks like Predators and Leman Russ in CC is fine. You HAVE to be able to get those juicy targets out of light transports though. I take 3 Heralds of Tzeentch and a DP of Tzeentch at 1500. This is still light on the anti tank but I count on them to pop Rhinos/Razors and the like.

How valuable is speed in Chaos Daemons? I really like the idea of Seekers, Fiends, and Flesh Hounds, except that other more durable units Deepstrike too. Do Daemons have trouble catching their prey once they hit the board, or does everyone just castle up anyway?

Speed is very essential. Blood Crushers and Bloodletters seem amazing, but how do you get them to CC? You need to be able to reach the opponent. I love Daemonettes and Fiends for this reason. The low armor and toughness can be mitigated by dropping into cover. Sure, you take dangerous terrain tests, but you can take your invulnerable saves. I have little trouble catching people.

I feel like Bloodletters don't bring anything useful to the table. Plaguebearers score, Horrors shoot, and everything Bloodletters kill something else kills better. The same should be more true of Daemonettes, except they can bring down tanks with relative ease. I feel like Daemonettes should be the go-to Troop choice after you're comfortable with your number of Plaguebearers because they add to your limited ability to open tanks.

Many people like 2-3 7 man Plaguebearer units to fill the troop slots and take objectives. This gives them more points to play with. I think for a pure competitive standpoint this is the most efficient. Horrors can shoot, but low BS and high point costs make them so-so. 5 strong with a Bolt is how many run them. I like Bloodletters in theory, but in practive I find there to be too many ways to stop them. They are slow, vulnerable to small arms fire, and do not have assault grenades. Smart opponents kite them. Daemonettes give you a worse CC output than Bloodletters, but more speed and grenades. I actually really like them. Take them in units of 12-14.

Daemonic Assault: dividing your waves is very subjective, but what I'm interested in is even more so. How large should your unit sizes be considering Daemonic Assault and Killpoints?

There are many ways to run Daemons so I don't think there is a definitive answer to this. In terms of Daemonic Assault, I would try to evenly divide and not stack one wave. As for killpoints, you generally have less than mech opponents.

My 1500 list that has worked very well:

At 1500:

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, gaze, we are legion- 110
Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, gaze, we are legion- 110
Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, gaze, we are legion- 110
Fiends (6), 1 has unholy might- 190
Fiends (6), 1 has unholy might- 190
Flamers (3)- 105
Daemonettes (12), 1 has instrument- 173
Daemonettes (12), 1 has instrument- 173
Daemonettes (12), 1 has instrument- 173
Deamon Prince of Tzeentch- Daemonic Gaze, Bolt- 160

This list works because it is very different to play against. Nothing has a huge "shoot me" sign on it. The army has to work together and use the right tool for the job. The Fiends do most of my heavy lifting after the Heralds pop tanks. The Flamers are fun and really all or nothing. I find that they deter castling though.

Daemons can crush any army in 4 turns. You could then set up against the exact same army and get destroyed. Its just the nature of those deamons. I have seen Fateweaver go toe to toe with Abbadon for several rounds of melee, I have also seen him die to a hex rifle in one shot.

With daemons you need to enjoy thinking on your feet and changing your plan on the spot. You may not get the right wave, your units may scatter to places you didnt want them to go. A unit of fiends may fail to have a singal rend, or may get 12 rends in one melee, which situation do you hit and run? These are things you need to be comfortable with, and when you are the army is fun to play.

THe nice thing with deamons is even though "you" dont know how things will go, your opponent wont either.

Daemons are a very fun army to play. They are so different from anything else. Many of the spammed weapons that rock the "meta game" don't work too well against them. Melt guns and plasma guns are just easier wounding weapons. Insta death is of no concern. Anti tank weaponry is largely wasted.

MagicJuggler wrote:Actually, point-for-point, Bloodletters kill more. They also do not compete slotwise with Fiends, which actually threaten vehicles (and can avoid being eternally tarpitted by a Dreadnought).

Horrors are are terrible platform for bolt, due to their cost, toughness/unit size (5 T3 guys means that there's a very good chance that a good round of anti-infantry fire will remove the Bolt-Horror from the unit), low BS/shot output, the fact they didn't Run after Deep Striking meaning they're multiblast fodder...

Also, Bloodthirsters are terrible vs Land Raiders. You need 6s to hit, and you spend at least one turn exposed to all the enemy AT firepower, (as there is nothing else worth shooting AT at in such an army), and such. Also, Raider lists tend to take a Nullzone Librarian.

I'm actually going to disagree with just about everything here

Bloodletters might be more effective point for point ... til they get shot at ... than they become a waste of points Yes fiends are good ... so are crushers .. this is why you should always see a 2-1 ratio of them either 2 crush 1 fiend or vice versa

Horrors, normally a reserve wave option I've seen them do good things and yes they're t3 .. so what they do have a 4++ and are more survivable than you're making them out to be ..

Terrible vs landraiders ... its prolly the best shot daemons have at cracking them ... so if there is a libby with null inside you'd better bet I'd go try and crack it open

If you can stun it you'll crack it next turn

The Bloodthirster certainly isnt a Twin Linked Lascannon, Teleporting Melta Gun or Bright Lance, but for Daemons it's the best they can do. The Alternative is a Soul Grinder, which is an even bigger target (and due to the size, much more easily mishap than a Thirster). Matter here isnt comparing the Thirster to every Anti-tank weapon in the game, but to what it has competing agaisnt it in it's own book.

Any Marine player worth his salt will give Extra Armor to a Land Raider.

While Horrors have a 4++ save (guess what, we call it cover in 5th edition), it does little against massed shooting, or multiple flamers. The moment they lose their Bolt, their use plummets. I could use mathhammer as a bludgeon and use raw mathhammer to state that 15 Shootaboyz have a 50%-50 chance of removing the Bolt-horror from his unit from shooting, and that Grotzookas are basically an autowin vs deepstriking horrors. But they are really vulnerable to torrent of fire, while costing almost as much as a Chariot Herald while being inferior in most every way AT-related.

Horrors are are terrible platform for bolt, due to their cost, toughness/unit size (5 T3 guys means that there's a very good chance that a good round of anti-infantry fire will remove the Bolt-Horror from the unit), low BS/shot output, the fact they didn't Run after Deep Striking meaning they're multiblast fodder...

I disagree. I switched from using a mix of plague bearers and horrors to all horrors.

At 95 points 5 horrors with bolt is a great buy, one unit can upgrade to have the changleing for 5 points. So for the core of my 2000 demon army I have: 6x5 horrors w/bolt (1 with changeling) for 575 points. These guys can drop onto objectives and harass my opponent with bolts. I want them to attract fire away from my fiends and DPs, who are there to do the real damage. This also gives my army more shooting which demons really lack.

I also love HoT on chariot w/bolt for the same reason. 5 wounds that your opponent feels the need to deal with because they are popping rhinos/trukks/chimeras from the side.

If the horror is in range when it DS, it gets a few shots off. If it's not in range, it can run. A 4+ Invul Save means that they're not susceptable to normal Flamers or even Heavy Flamers, which removes the Cover Save. Mass shooting? The Cost of a single squad of horrors would be worth it if it took up a turn of shooting from one or two squads, since it lets something else survive. A Herald wouldnt fair that much better against mass shooting anyways.

I've never given mine extra armor ... ...

well I guess having a cover save out in the open isn't too bad now is it. you could use any math you wanted to however in a game of "chance" statistics aren't perfect or we'd all play blackjack.

I'd rather have my horrors assaulted than my Tzerald tho.

For the cost, a Herald of Tzeentch is more resilient to shooting than a unit of Heralds. The main differences are:
-Better toughness.
-The fact all 5 wounds are on a single model, rather than 5 spread across 5 models. Since Daemons cannot fire on the run, if they do Deepstrike and fire, then a flamer template autohits them all. Contrast 5 flamer/blast hits wounding on 3, with 1 wounding on 4s.

If your Fiends are in rapidfire range following the initial Deepstrike, something went wrong.

Loosing a Herald means you lost a precious HQ slot, of which you only have 4 (which means you took no GDs, which is a pretty bad move to begin with) Taking even one Herald denys you use of another GD which could potentially be better for the slot. Horrors dont suffer that problem. At lower point costs they're effective for what they do. At higher point costs you can buff the unit with more wounds.

Also, against low armored units, you ahve the added benefit of an additional 16 S4 shots, which can glance AV10 and potentially cause more problems for the enemy. Horrors also fare better if they do deepstrike at something other than a tank, making them more versatile than a Herald, since a Herald can only ever put out 6 shots (and thats with alot of upgrades). Horrors also present additional, effective suppliments to your Tankhunting. Daemon Princes are better than both in terms of tankhunting, being innately able to fire two weapons a turn and having the benefit of S5 or 6 with 2D6 penetration at the relative same cost. Reason why I choose my Horrors over a herald is because the HQ section is precious in my eyes (maybe others, maybe not) and the choices should not be wasted on a suicide tankhunting spree. Regardless of Horror or Herald, that squad is gonna die after getting off a few shots, one way or another. I'd rather use Horrors and save the slot for a better, more all rounded support Herald/GD.

Loosing a Herald means you lost a precious HQ slot, of which you only have 4 (which means you took no GDs, which is a pretty bad move to begin with) Taking even one Herald denys you use of another GD which could potentially be better for the slot. Horrors dont suffer that problem. At lower point costs they're effective for what they do. At higher point costs you can buff the unit with more wounds.

Also, against low armored units, you ahve the added benefit of an additional 16 S4 shots, which can glance AV10 and potentially cause more problems for the enemy. Horrors also fare better if they do deepstrike at something other than a tank, making them more versatile than a Herald, since a Herald can only ever put out 6 shots (and thats with alot of upgrades). Horrors also present additional, effective suppliments to your Tankhunting. Daemon Princes are better than both in terms of tankhunting, being innately able to fire two weapons a turn and having the benefit of S5 or 6 with 2D6 penetration at the relative same cost. Reason why I choose my Horrors over a herald is because the HQ section is precious in my eyes (maybe others, maybe not) and the choices should not be wasted on a suicide tankhunting spree. Regardless of Horror or Herald, that squad is gonna die after getting off a few shots, one way or another. I'd rather use Horrors and save the slot for a better, more all rounded support Herald/GD.

It really depends on your build. I think the Greater Daemons can be rather vulnerable for their cost. I think they have to be put in a higher point list with a specific plan in mind to be really effective. Which ones do you use and find particularly effective? At what point level are you taking two of them?

Horrors are a decent value, but can be a really easy kill point too. The Bolt having a BS of only 3 is the killer. It's so unreliable in an army that is already unreliable when it comes to ranged anti tank. The Daemon Prince cannot take We are Legion and are very expensive. In order to get a Daemon Prince with similar (not even as good) mobility as a chariot, with bolt and gaze you would have to pay around 220 points. The DP of Tzeentch isn't THAT good in close combat. It is also not able to shoot two different targets. The BS 5 is nice. I run one that's relatively stripped down. It is the only dual shooting and CC unit in my list.

The Herald of Tzeentch is just such a good buy. They are fairly resilient and can hit light vehicles and MEQ pretty hard. They fit in so well.

A list I'm building:

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

6 Fiends, unholy might 190

6 Fiends, unholy might 190

6 Fiends, unholy might 190

5 Plaguebearers 75

5 Plaguebearers 75

5 Plaguebearers 75

12 Flesh Hounds 180

12 Flesh Hounds 180

10 Screamers 160

= 1750

Something a little different, I think. The fiend and flesh hound units all put out 36 str5 init5 hits on the charge. Swarm your opponent with enormous amounts of str5 CC hits, or eat parking lots with 10 jetbike meltabombs. Zoom around shooting tanks with your tzeralds.

Thoughts?

It just completely dawned on me that I forgot about Screamers. They are perhaps the only thing better than Bloodthirsters at poping tanks. Thanks for reminding me Jabbdo.

NP. Another list that I've been thinking about is using screamers with skarbrand to reroll their meltabomb hits. I've put up a list using them on my blog if you wanna check it out.

A list I'm building:

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

Herald of Tzeentch, chariot, bolt, we are legion, master of sorcery 110

6 Fiends, unholy might 190

6 Fiends, unholy might 190

6 Fiends, unholy might 190

5 Plaguebearers 75

5 Plaguebearers 75

5 Plaguebearers 75

12 Flesh Hounds 180

12 Flesh Hounds 180

10 Screamers 160

= 1750

It's relatively similar to what I use (see above). I think it could definitely work. The flesh hounds are interesting. They seem to have the ability to close the gap much like Fiends.

After a couple games, I'm thinking it isn't worth investing in ranged anti-tank. I'm playing under 1500 points, mostly 1k since my lists are build on my CSM's auxiliary. The buy-in is too high at that level. More and more I'm looking at the fast choices in the codex to solve my problems. I'm torn between Seekers and Fiends (Fiends being more durable, but Seekers are able to assault into cover), and I'm seriously considering Screamers.

My list looks something like this (I don't have the book in front of me, so the points may be off):

Great Unclean One, 160
5 Plaguebearers, Icon, 105
5 Horrors, Bolt, Changling, 100
12 Daemonettes, 168
12 Seekers, Icon, 229
6 Screamers, 96
Daemon Prince, Nurgle, Touch, Cloud, 125
983

So I've got room to add a member to any squad, I'll see how it plays out.

jdjamesdean@mail.com wrote: you could use any math you wanted to however in a game of "chance" statistics aren't perfect or we'd all play blackjack.

This statement makes no sense. Statistics are close to perfect and that's exactly why you shouldn't play blackjack. 52% of the time the house will take your money, every casino in the world makes money off that 4% spread.

Statistics are not only the best but the only way to make judgements when chance is involved. Yeah units could perform differently, should you build a list expecting them to? You gotta us the baseline stats.