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CCS, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 135
PCS 4 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 125
PIS, Heavy Bolter, Chimera, Hull Bolter, 115
PIS, Heavy Bolter, Chimera, Hull Bolter, 115
Vets, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 155
Hellhound, Multimelta, 145
Hellhound, Multimelta, 145
2 Leman Russ Punishers, 360
Leman Russ Exterminator, Pask, 200
1495

I've been having success with this list and thought I'd share it for your consideration.

If your against marines or CSM change both hellhounds to banewolfs and the punishers to demolishers but against horde armys thats a very nice army! good list.

Kaskrin123 wrote:If your against marines or CSM change both hellhounds to banewolfs and the punishers to demolishers but against horde armys thats a very nice army! good list.

Love Banewolfs, they are a must have for me in a anti-marine guard army!

Oh man, totally interesting list. I can't believe I've never thought of putting pask in an exterminator, that is just an amazing idea.

I'm looking at running a few armoured fist squads myself in the near future, basically to get the scoring chimeras but also for putting out light suppression fire. I'd be very interested in hearing what a day at work is like for your squads.

I don't like Banewolves against anything. Even if they do get to fire the template, they are often killed by their target's retaliation. I can mitigate this by focusing fire on what's left of the squad, but I'd rather have something that can function autonomously. That and the things are useless against hordes.

As for the Armored Fist squads, they perform just well enough to force Morale checks on MEQs, and damned well against hordes. Oh, they're also fantastic at finishing off whatever's left of the Punishers' meal. They're also surprisingly good against transports. They don't do much, but they'll reliably glance Rhinos and often that's all you need. Against the lightest chasis, they wreck house though.

DarkHound wrote:As for the Armored Fist squads, they perform just well enough to force Morale checks on MEQs, and damned well against hordes. Oh, they're also fantastic at finishing off whatever's left of the Punishers' meal. They're also surprisingly good against transports. They don't do much, but they'll reliably glance Rhinos and often that's all you need. Against the lightest chasis, they wreck house though.

That's pretty much what I was hoping to hear. My guys will have missile launchers so they might come out more hit/miss against AV10-11 but horde should work out well I think. Have you considered giving them special weapons, like I don't know a GL? or do you find that they operate better outside its range?

Oh and what about a lascannon on the exterminator?

I used to run them with GLs, then Sniper Rifles. Both, I found, were not worth the time spent making separate rolls let alone spending points on. If they were free I'd still consider not taking.

I was reluctant to take the Exterminator without a hull-mounted Lascannon. It is a useful tool that extends the Exterminator's threat to AV14. However, I've got more than enough Meltaguns for that. I've also found that a S6 Heavy Bolter compliments the tank quite well, especially against squadrons where my list otherwise lacks torrential long-ranged shooting. Taking a Lascannon isn't as automatic an upgrade as I originally thought.

Yeah I didn't even think about the HB getting s6, that would be preferable. How about the fact that you can't use crack shot without staying stationary. Does that get in the way a lot? I've pretty much decided I have to try it out myself already, but it's nice to feel prepared.

I have to ask, what kind of opponents have you faced with this list? I've given the punisher a few honest chances, contrary to the advice of many, and I must admit even I found it pretty lacklustre. It worked okay against weaker infantry, but your list already has two hellhounds and those fist squads to handle that department. I'm not saying every list has to be 100% optimized, they are certainly cool, but have you not come across better options?

My two favorite things to do on this forum are talking about my Possessed CSM and defending the Punisher. Thank you for the opportunity.

Before I compare them to other choices, I'll tell you what I took them for. Why does anyone take a Leman Russ? They want something durable. You'll accept that AV14/13 makes trying to kill them at range a fool's errand: BS4 Lascannons deal damage (pen or glance) 21% of the time, so it takes about 5 to even get a roll on the table (about 26 shots to kill). Everyone is so quick to point out that Meltaguns have an average penetration of 15: a BS4 Meltagun deals damage 48% of the time. With AP1, they need less damage rolls to kill; it usually takes 4 Meltagunners to bring down a Russ. What a dismal prospect. After all, who can't bring 4 Meltagunners to bear on a tank moving towards you?

My Leman Russes are in a squadron, which common logic will tell you makes them even less durable (they treat Immobilized as Wrecked). The key is that launching smoke with one Russ gives them both a 4+ cover save. I have two turns of 4+ cover on both my Russes. No, it gets better. Meltagunners come in 2s or 3s and often only put a single damage result on which you can allocate to the tank that didn't pop smoke that turn. Cover can save you, but it is really just there to manage overflow. Otherwise you take the result like a man, and assuming the tank survives, you can use it to pop smoke since it won't be firing the following turn anyway. Doesn't matter how many squads he sends at you, just keep putting the damage on that tank. The math says it'll take 8 Meltaguns to bring down a single tank, and all the while the other one takes no damage from any sources.

This is great and all, but any Leman Russ can do that. What makes the Punisher special? It does two things I really appreciate: it forces wound allocation and it doesn't care how good your opponent is. The former is obvious; two Punishers inflict 15 wounds on an T4 squad so Sergeant and Special/Heavy Weapons models can't hide. It is hilarious to see half a Tactical Squad, without its Meltagunner and Sarge, wandering about the board wondering what to do with themselves.

The latter requires some explanation. No rule ever requires that your opponent be bunched up, save Tank Shocks. If the enemy is able to spread out to 2", and they always are, Small Blast templates can only ever hit one model, and Large Blasts can only ever hit 3. The rules are also such that a model in a transport can always be in cover. On an Explodes result, the models embarked are deployed in 4+ area terrain. Otherwise they can deploy behind the Wrecked vehicle, gaining 4+ cover. So a Battlecannon (or Demolisher) will hit 3 models 50% of the time, wound them 83% of the time, and cover will save half of that: .6 dead models. The Executioner also hits 3 models 50% of the time, coming to the same result. Even against its worst match up, T5 3+ save, a Punisher's main gun inflicts 1.6 kills which is more than double the other tanks.

GOOD LORD. What was the other thing you wanted me to talk about? Oh yeah, Crack Shot. You won't be able to stand and shoot every turn, but firing on the move doesn't make Pask worthless. BS4 TL-ACs are still nasty.

You make a pretty convincing case. I'll admit that when my punisher didn't perform incredibly well, my first idea wasn't to squadron in another. Rather, I thought it was time to give the demolisher a whirl. It worked out better (not against monsters no), I guess because my opponents don't often make use of the full 2" coherency distance. I would usually get from 4 to 9 models under the blast, which kind of skews the numbers in its favour.

If we assume a large blast hits no more than 3 models in cover, even a single punisher will probably equal or better the demolisher's amount of dead (non-terminator) enemies, albeit at higher cost. My punisher had a tendency to draw less fire though, so it was often not at all bad at controlling an area or maintaining its fire lanes even when parked.

List still has more anti horde elements than I for one can ever see myself needing (I guess the redundancy is useful?), but this thread has really opened my eyes to the exterminator and I may even give punishers another chance. So yeah, thanks for sharing.

Almarine wrote:I would usually get from 4 to 9 models under the blast, which kind of skews the numbers in its favour.

I just. I want to play with your locals.

List still has more anti horde elements than I for one can ever see myself needing (I guess the redundancy is useful?), but this thread has really opened my eyes to the exterminator and I may even give punishers another chance. So yeah, thanks for sharing.

I agree, actually, and am going to try changing the Hellhounds to (many, many, many) Sentinels. I'm tempted to squeeze in an Astropath.

CCS, 4 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 145
PCS 4 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 125
PIS, Heavy Bolter, Chimera, Hull Bolter, 115
PIS, Heavy Bolter, Chimera, Hull Bolter, 115
Vets, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 155
2 Scout Sentinels, ACs, Hunterkillers, 100
2 Scout Sentinels, ACs, Hunterkillers, 100
2 Scout Sentinels, Heavy Flamers (or Multilasers), 80
2 Leman Russ Punishers, 360
Leman Russ Exterminator, Pask, 200
1495

Suddenly WALKERS! EVERYWHERE!



I feel naked without a Hellhound, so I'll compromise.

CCS, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 135
PCS 4 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 125
PIS, Heavy Bolter, Chimera, Hull Bolter, 115
PIS, Heavy Bolter, Chimera, Hull Bolter, 115
Vets, 3 Meltaguns, Chimera, Hull Flamer, 155
2 Scout Sentinels, ACs, 80
2 Scout Sentinels, ACs, 80
Hellhound, hull Flamer, 130
2 Leman Russ Punishers, 360
Leman Russ Exterminator, Pask, 200
1495

DarkHound wrote:My two favorite things to do on this forum are talking about my Possessed CSM

Why even bother with Possessed?

Well, it's not like any of their mutation results don't enhance the squad's assault strength. And they always get fearless, s5 and a 5++. The fact that you roll after deployment kind of sucks for you but it also sucks for your opponent. If you went and spent the sick points on those guys, he can't ignore the chance that they might all grow power weapons and butcher his legs.

I'm sure darkhound has further insight on the matter, I would probably take chosen or berserkers instead. It's kind of off topic anyway.

I'd want an astropath with that too, but you can probably manage. It's going to be hard to find points with the list so slim already. Drop autocannons perhaps?

Almarine wrote:Well, it's not like any of their mutation results don't enhance the squad's assault strength. And they always get fearless, s5 and a 5++. The fact that you roll after deployment kind of sucks for you but it also sucks for your opponent. If you went and spent the sick points on those guys, he can't ignore the chance that they might all grow power weapons and butcher his legs.

I'm sure darkhound has further insight on the matter, I would probably take chosen or berserkers instead. It's kind of off topic anyway.

Yeh I prefer Zerks to Possessed, because Point for Point they will do more damage without having to worry about the randomness of their ability.

But, I was just taking that quote off of miniwargaming

Haha Darkhound you crack me up
I wonder why you have not solved the worlds energy crisis yet
Damn it man as if guard need more help