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A simple rule, one GW could actually do in errata, even: "When a Space Marine detachment using Black Templars chapter tactics allies with a Sisters of Battle detachment, and neither force includes a Librarian or other psyker, the two detachments count as Battle Brothers."

(The bit about psykers is in there because I can find fluff in the new C:SM that says Templars don't have Librarians but no actual rule saying they can't take them).

Conversely, I'm.tempted to say the more, well, weird chapters -- Blood Angels & co., Unforgiven, & Space Wolves -- should be downgraded from Allies of Convenience to Desperate allies, but I hesitate because on the current matrix no Imperial force is worse than Allies of Convenience with any other; Desperate is reserved for Xenos filth.

I'm proposing this new rule based on
- this thread about how the current alliance matrix does not match the new fluff about Black Templars being Emperor-worshippers who frequently work with the Sisters.
- this thread where people tie themselves in knots trying to figure out what line & column on the alliance chart the Black Templars use now they're part of the new C:SM. I figured I'd cut that Gordian knot.

Tactically, what Sisters get from this is
- WS 4, S 4, T 4, I 4, ATSKNF close combat specialists, filling the most glaring gap in the Sister's line-up.
- lascannons, giving them long-ranged anti-tank/anti-monster firepower beside the Exorcist.
- dedicated anti-aircraft vehicles Stalker & Hunter
- the Vindicator
- an actual main battle tank with heavy armour and a turreted main weapon, the Predator. (Ok, so it's not a Leman Russ, it's something).

What Black Templars get from this is
- lots and lots of AP1, in the form of Battle Sisters Squads toting two meltas, scouting Dominions toting even more meltas, jump infantry Seraphim with Inferno Pistols, and the Exorcist, which is an awesome tank destroyer. (It's not an MBT, it lacks a turret or heavy armor).
- Retributors with Rending Heavy Bolters.
- Seraphim jumping all over with dual hand flamers.
- Saint Celestine.

What neither gets:
- pyskers. No psychic powers retains the character of both armies and, for play balance, leaves a weakness to balance the alliance's strengths. BT+SOB would be a good alliance but not the slam-dunk choice: If either army allied with conventional Space Marines or even Imperial Guard, they'd get psykers.

Looking at fluff both new and old, I think this rule makes much more sense than Templars & Sisters being Desperate Allies or even Allies of Convenience. From a gameplay perspective, I think it opens up interesting but not overpowered possibilities.

Or of course I could be wrong and stupid. Feel free to tell me that, I've got thick skin. Or you could make constructive suggestions, that's good too.

Under the librarian entry on pg 165 it says BTs can't take Librarians. The new codex specifies that any reference to Codex BTs is synonymous with SMs with BT tactics.

So even more simply, just BTs should be Battle Brothers with SoBs. No more stipulations are needed. I'm all for it. BTs are fine with the =][= psychers, otherwise you would have issues with BTs and GKs.

If no psykers are present I figure there is absolutely nothing there that would prevent battle brother status. Even fluff says their fight together fine. Hell, make it more fluffy and just put out that BTs are battle brothers with all mankind if no psykers are on field and allies of convenience if they are, regardless of chapter, guard or sisters

Rulesets are no democracy, but I'll add my "aye" anyways, for what it's worth.
An addition like that obviously fits the background, and it could promote a very fitting Allies combo.

And if the Sisters are from the Order of the Ebon Chalice, they'd even have matching outfits.

Would go perfectly with the fluff, as well as the feel of both armies. Gameplay-wise, as you said, the two make an effective team, each bringing something which the other lacks. They'd make for a potent force.

As for the specific benefit that battle brothers status confers, the ability for independant characters to join units in the allied army, that too opens up some nice combos. Having a Canoness (with her Act of Faith) or Jacobus in with a BT assault unit would make for a hard-hitting attack indeed. Not sure what Templars independant characters could offer the Sisters, since I haven't read that codex, though.

I don't know if GW would go for it, though. It's a very nice idea that I'd love to see, but I don't think that they've done anything like this before. Hell, they may not even know that it's something that many players would like.

I'd be in for this as well.

 Troike wrote:
As for the specific benefit that battle brothers status confers, the ability for independant characters to join units in the allied army, that too opens up some nice combos. Having a Canoness (with her Act of Faith) or Jacobus in with a BT assault unit would make for a hard-hitting attack indeed....

Ah, yes, forgot to mention that. And really, without psykers, the ability to "share" ICs is the only concrete benefit of Battle Brothers.

pk1 wrote:
Under the librarian entry on pg 165 it says BTs can't take Librarians. The new codex specifies that any reference to Codex BTs is synonymous with SMs with BT tactics.

Whoops, missed that. Well, that certainly simplifies things:

"When a Space Marine detachment using Black Templars chapter tactics allies with a Sisters of Battle detachment, the two detachments count as Battle Brothers."

(The bit about psykers is in there because I can find fluff in the new C:SM that says Templars don't have Librarians but no actual rule saying they can't take them)

All that typing and you didn't just look under the entry for Librarians in the army list?

I'm reading the electronic version of the new 'dex on my iPhone.... makes it easy to miss stuff. Especially stuff in small italic print at the end of the main entry for the unit.

Black Templars and Sister Battle Borthers

Hell yeah

just bought some more Templars so I can use them together

Maybe you should add a Poll?

So when 6th edition was first released people were making up all kinds of explanations and drawing on any obscure minute detail in order to justify SoB and BT being desperate allies. Now that BT are a part of the space marine codex everyone is totally cool with their new alliance classification.

I don't get you guys.

Um, the whole point of this thread is to house-rule away the official SOB:BT alliance relationship, which people are so not-okay with that the thread just trying to figure out RAW got locked.

 Madcat87 wrote:
So when 6th edition was first released people were making up all kinds of explanations and drawing on any obscure minute detail in order to justify SoB and BT being desperate allies. Now that BT are a part of the space marine codex everyone is totally cool with their new alliance classification.

I don't get you guys.

Sorry but that is totally inaccurate and untrue - - feel free to go through the various threads - a couple of people said that the BT /SOB alliance in the rulebook was correct and tried to justify - most of us looked at the actual fluff and said nope - its complete nonsense (bit like Tau/Astartes being Battle Brothers)

GW seem to have done the same and indeed took the trouble to empahise the relationship as good but then seem to also say we have to use the contradictory ally matrix -where they are Desperate Allies - hence this and other threads.

Yeah, BT and Sisters not working together is like the dumbest thing I've ever heard

 Dakkamite wrote:
Yeah, BT and Sisters not working together is like the dumbest thing I've ever heard

Oh, even within the context of Warhammer 40K, I'm sure there are plenty of things that are even dumber....

I wish Grey knights could have Sisters as battle brothers. But nope, my grey knights hate everyone equally. We're equal oportunists afterall.
Everyone is equal for exterminatus.

 SirSlaughter wrote:
I wish Grey knights could have Sisters as battle brothers. But nope, my grey knights hate everyone equally. We're equal oportunists afterall.
Everyone is equal for exterminatus.

To be fair, the last time Grey Knights worked with Sisters, it didn't exactly end well for the Sisters.

 SirSlaughter wrote:
I wish Grey knights could have Sisters as battle brothers. But nope, my grey knights hate everyone equally. We're equal oportunists afterall.
Everyone is equal for exterminatus.

The problem from the Sisterly point of view is that the GK are almost all filthy, filthy psykers. I don't have the codex but my understanding is even the troops choices have "brotherhood of psykers." And the one choice that makes inquisitorial henchmen Troops is, I believe, an inquisitor special character who is, himself, a filthy psyker (who is filthy).

Now, if you could house rule that making a generic, non-psyker Ordo Hereticus inquisitor(s) your only HQ(s) would also let you take henchmen as troops, so you had a Codex:GK army without any psykers, I could see the Sisters being Battle Brothers (err, Sisters) with that.

[edit: okay, I wrote up that rule in a new thread, here]

Is it even "known" that GKs are Psykers, though? Whilst I could well imagine that the Sisterhood (as an organisation) knows of their existence and role, I would not assume them to be privy to any details.

"They're the Ordo Malleus' household Space Marines for fighting daemons."

curran12 wrote:To be fair, the last time Grey Knights worked with Sisters, it didn't exactly end well for the Sisters.

To be fair, it's not like the Sisters would know about that.

Some other fluff stuff:

- Both groups worship the emperor as a god.
- The new SM codex makes specific mention that they find common cause with the SOB often and have a history of mutual obligation (translation:"bro-fist")
- A tendency for close range and melee combat.

At the very least having them together they can compete on "I am more faithful than you are".
St. Celestine and the Emperor's Champion can compare visions.

I started out with CSM with enough for 4 distinct chaos god armies, I wanted something to fight against them, BT, Inquisition, GK and SOB are the four (really holy trinity going by codex) that most came to mind.

In all honesty, with the way the fiction reads I am unsure why they don't give each other hugs when they meet or at least offer to whip each other for various transgressions as a sign of mutual respect (compare whip tip configurations for maximum penitence?).

They would go well on the table based on looks alone, that should be argument enough.

Well as soon as GW get on with clarfying the rules so that the current BT ally matrix is consigned to the rubbish bin the quicker we can get on with the game.....

 Lynata wrote:
Is it even "known" that GKs are Psykers, though? Whilst I could well imagine that the Sisterhood (as an organisation) knows of their existence and role, I would not assume them to be privy to any details.

Yeah, I'd imagine 99% of Sisters of Battle don't have "need to know" that the Grey Knights even exist, let alone that they're all (filthy) psykers. But once the GK start firing mind bullets out of their laser eyes, I think any Sisters working with them would figure it out PRETTY FETHING FAST. And you would really, really want to brief the allied Sisters, down to at least the squad leader level, BEFORE the battle starts, so you don't get things like this:

BATTLE SISTER #1: Omygosh, they're psykers! Filthy, filthy psykers!
BATTLE SISTER #2: Heresy! Treachery! Kay-oss!
SISTER SUPERIOR: Godless Astartes are always gettin' corrupted, goddamit. Okay, girls -- BURN 'EM DOWN!

Yeah, you don't want that.

And I've always thought (headcanon) that the Sisters' Acts of Faith -- and their Codex:Witchhunters-era defenses against psykers -- came from some kind of gestalt psychic field that could to some degree sense and suppress other psychic powers, kind of like an allergy reaction. I imagine hearing near a Grey Knight would make a Sister feel subconsciously "itchy," even if she didn't know what he was, and that would include an itchy trigger finger....

An alliance between Grey Knights and the Sisters of Battle should be a new thread. (Who wants to start one? I'm all for it)

It would be only sensible to revise the allies matrix in many ways. And I agree that Black Templars and SoB should be battlebrothers. Fluff should rate higher than a rule that is not in concert with the background of the setting.

Given all the talk about Fluff and narrative games in the BRB - the fluff should be paramount in things like Ally matrix - yeah I know its also about selling models - but I can't see how the correct version with the SOB/BT working together stops them selling stuff.........

Grey Knights / SOB - not sure - the only real link is the Inquisiton and even then different aspects of that highly fragmented organisation!

In regards to a GK/SoB team up, wouldn't the Knights do their usual schtick of trying to murder all of their allies once the Daemons were beaten? Though granted, the Sisters could be an organisation with the political clout to possibly avoid that, given that they have the backing of both the Ecclesiarchy and the Ordo Hereticus. And if one piece of fluff in the current SoB codex is anything to go by, some Sisters already know about Daemons anyway. Hell, this one piece of fluff has them freely leaving a Daemon world that they've just raided apparently in view of a Grey Knights ship.

Also, this image suits this topic very well.

It's not like murdering their allies is the usual schtick of the Grey Knights. Sure, if the allies are mostly guardsmen, they get a bolt shot into the head after the battle in the name of secrecy. If they were especially heroic they get the same treatment as other astartes or Sisters of Battle, which would be a brainwipe (I cannot point out the exact page in the codex though). Therefore a short briefing before battle would make sense, they'll being made to forget anyway^^. That's the Inquisition for ya (especially the Ordo Malleus).

Aww, that picture is really cute Troike. And I agree, very fitting.

Its now not Daemons that the Inmperium conceals but the Grey Knights - lots of Chapters now have grudges etc against specific demons - bit hard to do if you don't know they exist!

@Atropamin
Brainwiping could work, I suppose. Or they just let them go. That seems to be what happens in the current SoB codex. Notably, they seem to already know about Daemons too, given that they aren't noted as being surprised or anything by the Daemons.

@Mr Morden
And yet the 6e rulebook goes on about how only a "tiny" amount of people are allowed to know about Daemons, doesn't it?

Seems like it's just inconsistent part of the background. Could be that that's how it's "supposed" to be, but there's lots of exceptions around.

As I understood it, it was selective wiping, where the existence of the Grey Knights is covered. As Morden says: That demons exist is kind of common knowledge. The permission to know about them is kind of another thing though.^^

All right, I've spun the Sisters-Grey Knights-Ordo Hereticus alliance question off into its own thread, along with proposed rules about how Sisters deal with psykers in any allied force. In essence, Sisters may love Imperial Guard officers, soldiers, tankers etc etc as Battle Brothers, but they're going to keep One Eye Open whenever they're around that shifty-looking Primaris Psyker....

[Edit: Oh, and I figured out how to add polls to threads -- apparently you click the "Poll" button, who knew? -- so there's now one on this thread (at the top) and one on the Sisters, Psykers, & GKs thread too. Vote early and vote often (except the computer shouldn't let you do that second thing).]