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I got to thinking about this while looking at some of the comments on the favorite Primarchs thread. Is humanity really better off because of the Emperor and his Great Crusade?

I know that there are going to be quite a few people who will have the knee jerk reaction that there's no question and that of course humanity needs the Emperor. But let's stop and really weigh the pros and cons for a minute.

Pros:
The Astronomican- This is the big one. Without the Astronimican, humanity would be limited to much shorter warp jumps a la the Tau, making a galaxy spanning empire impossible. Or would it?

Numbers (from having a unified, galaxy spanning Empire)- This lets humanity muster a huge fighting force, but often sacrifices quality for quantity. Why bother researching superior tactics when you can zerg rush a bunch of conscripts or penal guard into a meatgrinder? The fact that so many Imperial worlds use slave labor, and that the Uplifting Primary actively misinforms guardsmen about their enemies capabilities is testament to this attitude.

HUGE Manufacturing Capability- Which produce both practical things (loads of Leman Russ tanks), and giant, expensive superweapons (titans of all shapes and sizes). The sheer number of forgeworlds means the Imperium can produce a lot of killy stuff, which counts for a lot. However, all this manufacturing is run by the Admech (more on that later).

Fanatical Zeal- In the face of terrifying enemies, the sheer faith and religious fervor of the Emperor's servants can keep them in the fight long enough to make a difference. But this also comes with its downsides...

Spess Mehrines!- Genetically modified super soldiers who run all around the galaxy fighting the worst threats to the Imperium. Their really good at fighting, but there aren't that many of them. And this pro is more than countered by...

Cons:
Chaos Space Marines: The corrupted version of loyal Space Marines, these guys wouldn't exist without the Emperor either. Like the loyalists, they're few in number, but while loyalists mostly go wherever the Imperium bigwigs tell them too, Chaos Space Marines ARE the bigwigs on their side, and they're working to bring down the Imperium by any means necessary. Without CSM's to unite them, many large scale Chaos threats wouldn't even get off the ground.

No New Inventions: While the Admech can "refine" designs, their dogma restrains them from truly innovating. Compare the Admech's tech to the tech from the Dark Age of Technology or even some of the more advanced human empires the Emperor conquered. There hasn't been a major technological advancement in ten thousand years. In fact, the Admech is LOSING tech. Remember when humanity had jetbikes? If humanity were truly allowed to innovate, they may have figured out how to access the webway or discovered another method of travel that would render the Astronomican irrelevant.

Logistics Nightmares: Without a strong leader and proper delegation, the Administratum has turned into something of a chicken with its head cut off. Entire worlds are lost for hundreds of years. Regiments that are dead get reassigned to combat zones and sentenced to death for not showing up (it's funny, unless it's your world that needed that regiment). Any big bureaucracy will have some problems, but GEEZ. Does all the manufacturing capability and manpower matter if it doesn't get to the right place at the right time?

Crappy Conditions Encourage Chaos: The terrible conditions many people are in makes Chaos cults look appealing. Also, all the negative emotions caused by those crappy conditions are feeding the Chaos Gods.

No Xenos Allies: The violently xenophobic nature of the Imperium means that aliens that might become allies become enemies instead.

As a final argument against the Emperor, imagine what the galaxy would be like if the galaxy spanning force for order was a group like the Cabal or the Interex instead of the Imperium. I know that I'd rather take my chances with them than with the Imperium. Obviously I'm bias, but it seems to me that the whole galaxy would be better off if the Emperor had gotten over himself and taken a more backseat role in helping humanity, or even if he'd never existed at all.

What do you think?

You could argue that Humanity and it's technology were advancing just find across the various groups during the age of technology, but on the flip side no one knows whether or not The Emperor was involved in designing or influencing technology during that period.

Certainly there would have been no Heresy, but there would be multiple human factions that may have ended up having internal confrontations resulting in being vulnerable to Xeno's.

Without the Imperium, I don't see humanity ever truly recovering from the age of strife. There would be no real galactic hegemon, and with no Anathema, the Chaos Gods would find no real reason to distract themselves from the great game. You'll still have Chaos worshippers, but it wouldn't be as big of a deal.

This Galaxy likely gets swept aside by the return of the Necrons and the arrival of the Tyranids however.

On the other hand, you may see some Human-Eldar alliances, and I don't mean truces of convenience, but actual partnerships. Less bad blood would exist, and humanity would not be xenophobic as a rule thouh there will probably still be human polities that rally around hate for the alien.

This may be enough to make a new hegemon, but I'm unsure of that.

Without the Emperor, Terra would still be a collection of psykers, mutants, and warlords warring against each other, with the Mechanicum on Mars occasionally raiding for tech.

You probably would've had smaller empires of humans, who would have had some contact. A (bad) example is probably something like the Baltic States and Eastern Europe before the Soviets took over. Yes, situations were bad, small wars and strained relations, but they needed each other enough to cooperate.

So no, humanity would've remained alive without the Emperor. Better is always subject. 'Better never means better for everyone. Someone is always worse off' swings both ways.

 Kain wrote:
Without the Imperium, I don't see humanity ever truly recovering from the age of strife. (...)

The Emperor was around during both the DAoT and the Age of Strife. The current state of the Imperium and the state of the Imperium during the Crusade pale in comparison with the golden age of humanity. As far as we know, the Emperor had nothing to do with humanity reaching its peak, and he was unable or unwilling to stop the coming of the Age of Strife. Perhaps he triggered it to push humanity towards the next evolutionary step.

It all depends on who is the Emperor, what is he, how long has he been around, what are his goals.... We know nothing...

I think it depends on whether you view the rise of Chaos as an inevitability that would have happened one way or another regardless of the Heresy.

If the active aggression of Chaos was a direct result of the Heresy then yes, the galaxy would be a better place without the Emperor. Terra may still be a wreck, but several of the other human realms seemed to be getting along just fine before the Crusade brought them to 'compliance', and would likely have been far more ready to ally with the Eldar and/or Tau against the likes of the Necrons.

Of course the Tyrannids would still eat everyone in the end, but there's little to indicate that the presence of the Imperium will stop that happening anyway.

 da001 wrote:

The Emperor was around during both the DAoT and the Age of Strife. The current state of the Imperium and the state of the Imperium during the Crusade pale in comparison with the golden age of humanity. As far as we know, the Emperor had nothing to do with humanity reaching its peak, and he was unable or unwilling to stop the coming of the Age of Strife. Perhaps he triggered it to push humanity towards the next evolutionary step.

It all depends on who is the Emperor, what is he, how long has he been around, what are his goals.... We know nothing...

But then again according to Realms of Chaos the Emperor was adviser to many important figures or an important figure himself. We don't know who these persons are, like you say, but it's quite possible that without the Emperors guidance Earth might not ever have reached the heights of Golden Age of Technology.

Again using Realms of Chaos we know how long the Emperor has been around and we can make an assumption as to what his intentions were, to unite humanity, using other sources.

I believe that if there was not the singular driving force that the Emperor was the Imperium, if anything, would not be like we see in 40k now.

What exactly is our counter-scenario here? When's our point of divergence?

Because if there never was an Emperor, then there would have been reincarnating psychic Shamans instead. They combined into the Emperor because they were worried Chaos might taint them individually. If those fears were justified, we probably have sorcerer kings and daemon princes arising in our ancient history and the world takes a very different, slightly Swords-and-Sorceryish shape, with daemonic shaman lords contesting with each other for power. We may never get started on the technological ladder. Also, if we go by Mechanicum, we have a nasty Void Dragon shard knocking about the place.

If the Shaman resist Chaos some other way; either because they are better people than they think or through some different trick, then we have thousands of wise shaman-sages guiding humanity rather than one super-shaman. Probably still a very different world, but likely not so hellish.

Guessing what these timelines look like circa 40k seems impossible to me; there is just so much different. Hell, I'm finding it hard to guess what they'll look like circa 014.M3.

By contrast, if we're talking "The Emperor trips and breaks his neck" circa about M29, then it could be better, could be worse. Humanity probably doesn't unite, but might well work more closely with other races. If the Eldar and some human factions get their gak together, you might well have a better world. On the other hand, large chunks of humanity might turn to Chaos without the Imperial Truth to keep them away from it. My best guess? Better for sentient life in the galaxy as a whole, worse for humanity.

The original post makes some errors in logic, I'm going to try to correct them.

1st: No new inventions. we have to keep in mind that the Emperor didn't come to power with the galaxy in the state it already was and just put the squash on inventions. that came after him. with that in mind it's worth noting that the galaxy before the Emperor came to power wasn't exactly a world chock full of geniuses creating new things. it was a mad max galaxy, splintered into independant planets and small tinsy star empires, all of whom mostly spent their time looking for and building STC tech. the galaxy before the Imperium was presumably one as empty of innovation as the IoM. just for differnt reasons. Also some technology is dangerous.

2nd: Logistics Nightmares. - that's simply part of the price of having such a LARGE realm. when you consider the scope of the IoM and it's communciation problems, the administration problems of the IoM proably aren't that hard to belive. think of all the people whom occasionally slip through the cracks of the government. now realzie there are more PLANETS in the IoM then there are people on Earth.


3rd: Crappy conditions - the conditions where crappy before hand. the age of strife was pretty chaos running rampent.

4th: No xenos allies - maybe but no xenos OVERLORDS eaither. the Eldar are experts at real Politik, they'd ally against you vs a common foe and then casually betray you once they where done with you. Humanities intreasts coincide with theirs on occasion sure but I'd not call them a race I'd want to trust. Meanwhile the Tau would try to covertly take over if given half the chance. fact is the IoM's policy towards aliens is harsh sure, but I'm not sure you could call it unjustified. It's not parinoid if everyone really IS out to get you

Without the Emperor humanity would still be in the Age of Strife, which was much worse than the current age.

BrianDavion wrote:
the Eldar are experts at real Politik, they'd ally against you vs a common foe and then casually betray you once they where done with you.

Kinda off topic, but where did this come from? AFAIK the Eldar originally wanted to help, but came to the conclusion that humanity wasn't worth saving/helping (thanks primarch's and Emperor) and that's when the manipulative relationship began. Or am I missing something?

I think that there have already been enough civilisations mentioned in the Heresy who were definitely better off before the Emperor came. The Interex were a prime example, this human empire was aware of Chaos and how to guard against it, had good relations with the eldar, leading to better technology and a culture that seems pleasant to live in. They put aside their xenophobia, containing threats but not subjugating or exterminating them. The were a Utopian society shattered by an aggressive first contact with the Imperium. Their hesitance to join was not born from hating the Emperor, merely questioning a society who's second most respected man was titled Warmaster.

It's like how recently we are starting to realise in our actual world that measuring countries by their GDP is a poor system as it does not necessarily correlate with quality of life. I feel that it has been demonstrated that as the Imperium views human life as it's most abundant resource and everything is geared towards maximum production, it can only be viewed as a bad thing. Many of these pocket empires were enlightened free societies before the coming of the Emperor, then simply get designated as "agri-worlds" or "Hive Worlds" and boom, enlightnement dies and the race merely survives to perpetuate it'self like a grotesque insect colony.

Diversity is another major problem in the Imperium, with all worlds governed by one model of humanity, where genetics must remain within a strict level of "purity" to avoid the risk of being branded mutants and an ideological "purity" where any divergence of thought gets you branded as a herectic, the human race could not be more stagnant. Which in turn, has made the galaxy stagnant. Better certain branches die out and other's evolve, whie new ones (like the Tau) rise and fall.

Again, go back to present day Earth. Does anyone really think that a one world government would benefit anyone except those put in charge? I really don't think so, the Emperor has more hubris than Magnus, believing that he was better than the rest of us and that he could save us all. Ultimately he failed and inflicted a nightmare on the Galaxy, leaving it a body with a beating heart and working brain, but no soul.

Farseer Anath'lan wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:
the Eldar are experts at real Politik, they'd ally against you vs a common foe and then casually betray you once they where done with you.

Kinda off topic, but where did this come from? AFAIK the Eldar originally wanted to help, but came to the conclusion that humanity wasn't worth saving/helping (thanks primarch's and Emperor) and that's when the manipulative relationship began. Or am I missing something?

The Eldar don't like humans, because the Eldar think the humans are vile and dirty hairless apes that crawl all over the universe that rightfully belongs to them. The Eldar are a bunch of supremacist jerks. Most of them will ally with humanity, but only if aids their own goals. Eldar do not care for humans, they consider them animals and would gladly wipe them from the galaxy if they had the power to do so. Humans are only good when they serve the goals of the Eldar.
It basically is the standard Fantasy tropes of Our Elves Are Better and Can't Argue with Elves taken to the extreme.

humans as we know them would be worse off. Conquered, destroyed, beaten back. There wouldn't be an imperium. The better question to ask, is whether humanity would be better off without the primarchs.

I've read several 40k novels where the eldar come to the aid of the IoM genuinely willing to help only to be betrayed later by the imperial scum. Iron_Captain I could not disagree with your opinion more

 Pilau Rice wrote:

But then again according to Realms of Chaos the Emperor was adviser to many important figures or an important figure himself. We don't know who these persons are, like you say, but it's quite possible that without the Emperors guidance Earth might not ever have reached the heights of Golden Age of Technology.

Again using Realms of Chaos we know how long the Emperor has been around and we can make an assumption as to what his intentions were, to unite humanity, using other sources.

I believe that if there was not the singular driving force that the Emperor was the Imperium, if anything, would not be like we see in 40k now.

But the question stands: what does he want? What are his goals? Is he the god he is supposed to be? Is it true that he is a "real" god trying to help mankind?

There are many conspirational theories concerning the Emperor. We know humans are identical to the Necrontyr before turning into Necrons, we know the Chaos Gods consider the Emperor one of his kin.... Of course, assuming the Emperor is a "good guy" who protects humanity, as we are told, will give you a negative answer to the question asked by the OP. But if humanity is being manipulated and used as cannon fodder as part of a war (perhaps a civil war) against Chaos, then he is just plain evil. And what if he is just a really powerful psyker, one of the Perpetuals, trying to rule mankind? This is the way the Perpetuals seem to see him, as one of their kin too.

And the end of the day we know nothing of the truth behind the Emperor (and I actually like it that way).

 ashcroft wrote:
I think it depends on whether you view the rise of Chaos as an inevitability that would have happened one way or another regardless of the Heresy.

If the active aggression of Chaos was a direct result of the Heresy then yes, the galaxy would be a better place without the Emperor. Terra may still be a wreck, but several of the other human realms seemed to be getting along just fine before the Crusade brought them to 'compliance', and would likely have been far more ready to ally with the Eldar and/or Tau against the likes of the Necrons.

Of course the Tyrannids would still eat everyone in the end, but there's little to indicate that the presence of the Imperium will stop that happening anyway.

This, too.

The Chaos Gods were not united, focusing on the Great Game, until the Emperor tried to destroy them. As a direct result, the galaxy has gone through 10000 years of hell.

And were was he during the Dark Age of Technology? Was he unable or unwilling to stop the coming of the Age of Strife? Would a powerful, confident humanity with near god-like technology accept a "god"?

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:
I think that there have already been enough civilisations mentioned in the Heresy who were definitely better off before the Emperor came. The Interex were a prime example, this human empire was aware of Chaos and how to guard against it, had good relations with the eldar, leading to better technology and a culture that seems pleasant to live in. They put aside their xenophobia, containing threats but not subjugating or exterminating them. The were a Utopian society shattered by an aggressive first contact with the Imperium. Their hesitance to join was not born from hating the Emperor, merely questioning a society who's second most respected man was titled Warmaster.

Yep.
It can be discused if Terra changed for the worse or for the better thanks to Big E, but humanity as a whole suffer the coming of one of the most brutal, bloodthirsty tyrant ever.

An even better example is the Olamic Quietude, branded "inhuman": http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Olamic_Quietude

"Genocide" is like a hobby to the Emperor. You better be "pure"... or useful.

 da001 wrote:

 Pilau Rice wrote:

But then again according to Realms of Chaos the Emperor was adviser to many important figures or an important figure himself. We don't know who these persons are, like you say, but it's quite possible that without the Emperors guidance Earth might not ever have reached the heights of Golden Age of Technology.

Again using Realms of Chaos we know how long the Emperor has been around and we can make an assumption as to what his intentions were, to unite humanity, using other sources.

I believe that if there was not the singular driving force that the Emperor was the Imperium, if anything, would not be like we see in 40k now.

But the question stands: what does he want? What are his goals? Is he the god he is supposed to be? Is it true that he is a "real" god trying to help mankind?

There are many conspirational theories concerning the Emperor. We know humans are identical to the Necrontyr before turning into Necrons, we know the Chaos Gods consider the Emperor one of his kin.... Of course, assuming the Emperor is a "good guy" who protects humanity, as we are told, will give you a negative answer to the question asked by the OP. But if humanity is being manipulated and used as cannon fodder as part of a war (perhaps a civil war) against Chaos, then he is just plain evil. And what if he is just a really powerful psyker, one of the Perpetuals, trying to rule mankind? This is the way the Perpetuals seem to see him, as one of their kin too.

And the end of the day we know nothing of the truth behind the Emperor (and I actually like it that way).

We don't know all of his aims no, nor will we ever unless we get them from Black Library, but we do know that pat of his goal was to unite mankind. To what end, eh, your guess is as good as mine.

But none of this has any reflection on what the OP was asking really, as if there wasn't an Emperor, none of this matters.

Humans are identical to Necrontyr? Chaos considering the Emperor as kin? There was me thinking that he was the Anathema to them.

 KorPhaeron77 wrote:

Again, go back to present day Earth. Does anyone really think that a one world government would benefit anyone except those put in charge? I really don't think so, the Emperor has more hubris than Magnus, believing that he was better than the rest of us and that he could save us all. Ultimately he failed and inflicted a nightmare on the Galaxy, leaving it a body with a beating heart and working brain, but no soul.

Agree with pretty much all you say here, but I think the difference is that Magnus thought he knew best, whereas the Emperor actually knew best. If the RoC stuff is correct he knew the terrors that lurked out amongst the stars and a fractured race would be a doomed race. Not sure I agree with his belief as there were worlds dedicated to Chaos out there that were doing fine until the Great Crusade reached them and the Imperium tried to bring them to the fold.

No Emperor, no humanity. Simple.
Since there's still the chance of a chance of a golden age thanks to the Emperor's sacrifice, more power to him.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
(...)
We don't know all of his aims no, nor will we ever unless we get them from Black Library, but we do know that pat of his goal was to unite mankind. To what end, eh, your guess is as good as mine.

But none of this has any reflection on what the OP was asking really, as if there wasn't an Emperor, none of this matters.

The intentions are key, because we know he influenced human history. Perhaps he wanted to become a god, perhaps he is using humanity as a mean to something...

Humans are identical to Necrontyr? Chaos considering the Emperor as kin? There was me thinking that he was the Anathema to them.

The first one is from one of the Sisters of Battle novels, the second from here and there. Eye of Terror, by Barrington J Bayley has a Lord of Change thinking about the Emperor.... and it is clear he talks of him as a god, or something really close. And the C´tan are also gods, yet enemies of the Chaos Gods.

1: The Emperor is just another face of the Deceiver, recreating the Necrontyr (now called "humans") for his own purposes.
2: The Emperor is a god, the god of mankind, a protecting father to all of us.
3: The Emperor is a chaos god yet to be born, a chaos god that is enemy to all other chaos gods. Let´s call it Malal.
4: The Emperor is a Perpetual, an immortal mutant who used his abilities to conquer the world.
5: The Emperor is a mutant. Just that, a really powerful mutant. Teturact or any other alpha psyker are really close to the definition of a god.
6: The Emperor is a construct, formed by the merging of a thousand shamans, to help mankind against the evil that is chaos.
7: The Emperor is an Alpha Legion Marine in disguise.
8: The Emperor is a mere corpse, a glorified carcass of a long dead legendary ruler. He lived, he died, he was declared a god. All is a lie.
Pick one.

Redseer wrote:
I've read several 40k novels where the eldar come to the aid of the IoM genuinely willing to help only to be betrayed later by the imperial scum. Iron_Captain I could not disagree with your opinion more

It depends.

The Biel-Tan Craftworld, to name one, is extremely agressive towards humans.

It was also said that the second & third wars on Armageddon were a direct result of the Eldars manipulation on the Orks. And there are some novels were the Eldar manipulate someone against humanity because they see a possible future where this someone attacks them. Something like "better a billion humans perish that allow a single Eldar to die".

 da001 wrote:

The intentions are key, because we know he influenced human history. Perhaps he wanted to become a god, perhaps he is using humanity as a mean to something...

Perhaps there was no sinister motive and he did just want to unite mankind for its survival.

 da001 wrote:

The first one is from one of the Sisters of Battle novels, the second from here and there. Eye of Terror, by Barrington J Bayley has a Lord of Change thinking about the Emperor.... and it is clear he talks of him as a god, or something really close. And the C´tan are also gods, yet enemies of the Chaos Gods.

1: The Emperor is just another face of the Deceiver, recreating the Necrontyr (now called "humans") for his own purposes.
2: The Emperor is a god, the god of mankind, a protecting father to all of us.
3: The Emperor is a chaos god yet to be born, a chaos god that is enemy to all other chaos gods. Let´s call it Malal.
4: The Emperor is a Perpetual, an immortal mutant who used his abilities to conquer the world.
5: The Emperor is a mutant. Just that, a really powerful mutant. Teturact or any other alpha psyker are really close to the definition of a god.
6: The Emperor is a construct, formed by the merging of a thousand shamans, to help mankind against the evil that is chaos.
7: The Emperor is an Alpha Legion Marine in disguise.
8: The Emperor is a mere corpse, a glorified carcass of a long dead legendary ruler. He lived, he died, he was declared a god. All is a lie.
Pick one.

Still have no idea on what your train of thought has to do with the original post.

But humans identical to Necrontyr even though they pre date mankind by a few thousand years according to the Necron codex seems a bit daft.

 Pilau Rice wrote:

 da001 wrote:

The intentions are key, because we know he influenced human history. Perhaps he wanted to become a god, perhaps he is using humanity as a mean to something...

Perhaps there was no sinister motive and he did just want to unite mankind for its survival.

 da001 wrote:

The first one is from one of the Sisters of Battle novels, the second from here and there. Eye of Terror, by Barrington J Bayley has a Lord of Change thinking about the Emperor.... and it is clear he talks of him as a god, or something really close. And the C´tan are also gods, yet enemies of the Chaos Gods.

1: The Emperor is just another face of the Deceiver, recreating the Necrontyr (now called "humans") for his own purposes.
2: The Emperor is a god, the god of mankind, a protecting father to all of us.
3: The Emperor is a chaos god yet to be born, a chaos god that is enemy to all other chaos gods. Let´s call it Malal.
4: The Emperor is a Perpetual, an immortal mutant who used his abilities to conquer the world.
5: The Emperor is a mutant. Just that, a really powerful mutant. Teturact or any other alpha psyker are really close to the definition of a god.
6: The Emperor is a construct, formed by the merging of a thousand shamans, to help mankind against the evil that is chaos.
7: The Emperor is an Alpha Legion Marine in disguise.
8: The Emperor is a mere corpse, a glorified carcass of a long dead legendary ruler. He lived, he died, he was declared a god. All is a lie.
Pick one.

Still have no idea on what your train of thought has to do with the original post.

But humans identical to Necrontyr even though they pre date mankind by a few thousand years according to the Necron codex seems a bit daft.

More like "The Necrons were around while humanity's ancestors had yet to recover from the dinosaurs at latest, or since before the Earth even formed at earliest."

Also, the Necrontyr aren't like us.

They're much taller and much more elongated based on their skeletal bodies.

Why Everything is So GrimDark:

http://1d4chan.org/wiki/Adeptus_Mechanicus

From 1d4chan, obviously, and thus very NSFW, but it does the best job of explaining the setting in easy-to-follow, profanity-laced language.

The Interex was nice but hypothetically, if there were no Emperor, we don't know if Chaos would have crushed it anyways. Certainly Chaos knew about the Interex and didn't like it (Horus crushing the Interex was in part manipulated by Chaos in the first place, you know?). If the Emperor didn't exist, and Horus didn't exist, who's to say that Chaos wouldn't have simply found another way to destroy the Interex eventually?

That said, the Great Crusade actually came across LOTS of worlds that, if you read in between the lines, were worshipping Chaos (a lot of worlds mention priests and animal motifs and many of those worlds that have such mentions ended up falling to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. Lorgar's Colchis, House Devine's planet, Ishtvan, Cadia, etc etc). And I'm not sure most of those planets were particularly bad places. One almost wonders if a galaxy ruled by Chaos that didn't have to fight the Emperor would have been a really bad place or not. Maybe it would have been worse as the planets fell more and more into the ruinous power's thrall (a lot of those planets could be described as "Chaos-lite" more than "Chaos"), but that's speculation.

I thought humanity kicked the Eldars' butt during the Golden Age or something, which meant the Eldar hated humanity even before Fulgrim and Eldrad's meeting made things worse. I could be wrong. Honestly how much the Eldar and Humanity back stab each other seems to vary by writer, but it generally seems to be getting worse and worse. Things like when Talaam and the Eldar actually exchanged vows of friendship just don't seem to happen anymore in the more recent fluff. Cuz they want their grimdark, I guess.

TiamatRoar wrote:
The Interex was nice but hypothetically, if there were no Emperor, we don't know if Chaos would have crushed it anyways. Certainly Chaos knew about the Interex and didn't like it (Horus crushing the Interex was in part manipulated by Chaos in the first place, you know?). If the Emperor didn't exist, and Horus didn't exist, who's to say that Chaos wouldn't have simply found another way to destroy the Interex eventually?

That said, the Great Crusade actually came across LOTS of worlds that, if you read in between the lines, were worshipping Chaos (a lot of worlds mention priests and animal motifs and many of those worlds that have such mentions ended up falling to Chaos during the Horus Heresy. Lorgar's Colchis, House Devine's planet, Ishtvan, Cadia, etc etc). And I'm not sure most of those planets were particularly bad places. One almost wonders if a galaxy ruled by Chaos that didn't have to fight the Emperor would have been a really bad place or not. Maybe it would have been worse as the planets fell more and more into the ruinous power's thrall (a lot of those planets could be described as "Chaos-lite" more than "Chaos"), but that's speculation.

I thought humanity kicked the Eldars' butt during the Golden Age or something, which meant the Eldar hated humanity even before Fulgrim and Eldrad's meeting made things worse. I could be wrong. Honestly how much the Eldar and Humanity back stab each other seems to vary by writer, but it generally seems to be getting worse and worse. Things like when Talaam and the Eldar actually exchanged vows of friendship just don't seem to happen anymore in the more recent fluff. Cuz they want their grimdark, I guess.

The Eldar would have crushed DAoT humanity in the pre-fall age just like the Old Ones were defeating the Necrons until the C'tan solved the maneuverability problem and gave them some reality warping muscle.

BrianDavion wrote:
The original post makes some errors in logic, I'm going to try to correct them.

1st: No new inventions. we have to keep in mind that the Emperor didn't come to power with the galaxy in the state it already was and just put the squash on inventions. that came after him. with that in mind it's worth noting that the galaxy before the Emperor came to power wasn't exactly a world chock full of geniuses creating new things. it was a mad max galaxy, splintered into independant planets and small tinsy star empires, all of whom mostly spent their time looking for and building STC tech. the galaxy before the Imperium was presumably one as empty of innovation as the IoM. just for differnt reasons. Also some technology is dangerous.

2nd: Logistics Nightmares. - that's simply part of the price of having such a LARGE realm. when you consider the scope of the IoM and it's communciation problems, the administration problems of the IoM proably aren't that hard to belive. think of all the people whom occasionally slip through the cracks of the government. now realzie there are more PLANETS in the IoM then there are people on Earth.


3rd: Crappy conditions - the conditions where crappy before hand. the age of strife was pretty chaos running rampent.

4th: No xenos allies - maybe but no xenos OVERLORDS eaither. the Eldar are experts at real Politik, they'd ally against you vs a common foe and then casually betray you once they where done with you. Humanities intreasts coincide with theirs on occasion sure but I'd not call them a race I'd want to trust. Meanwhile the Tau would try to covertly take over if given half the chance. fact is the IoM's policy towards aliens is harsh sure, but I'm not sure ayou could call it unjustified. It's not parinoid if everyone really IS out to get you

I don't agree with some of these corrections.

1st: The Emperor himself may have supported innovation in technology, but the Imperium doesn't now, and since that is the end result of the Emperor's actions, his feelings on the matter are irrelevant. Once he decided that the Admech should be in charge of technology, it was inevitable that the Imperium was going to stagnate. Stagnation is part of their dogma. I completely disagree with the second part. Yes, many parts of the galaxy were "mad max" but others were very technologically advanced. The Interex and the Olamic Quietude (which have both already been mentioned on this thread) both had technology far beyond what the Imperium had, but were crushed by force of numbers. If they hadn't been nipped on the bud, they could have spread and continued to advance. Also, people arguing that humanity would still be in the Age of Strife is silly. It's been 10 THOUSAND YEARS. Some human civilizations (see those above) were already on the rise. There's no reason to believe that humanity wouldn't recover from the Age of Strife. The Age of Strife was brought on by a machine revolt (which was put down) and massive warp storms making travel impossible (which dissipated after the birth of Slaanesh). Without these obstacles, humanity had plenty of time to recover.

2nd: Fair enough. Although a more high tech and efficient bureaucracy might still improve things.

3rd: The Age of Strife would not have lasted forever. See above. Also, conditions weren't universally crappy across the board. Again, see above.

4th: If the Imperium didn't kill the Eldar as often as they helped them, the Eldar might be more willing to negotiate. Yes, the Eldar are racist as crap, but they don't have a "kill all lesser races" policy. They also aren't stupid enough to pick a fight where no fight is necessary. Experience has taught them that the Imperium will only cooperate when an ax is hanging over both their heads. Also, this isn't limited to just the Eldar or Tau. There have been many other lesser alien races in the 40k universe that would have been more agreeable to an alliance. The Imperium has hunted most of them to extinction and turned the rest into enemies.

 Pilau Rice wrote:
(...)
Perhaps there was no sinister motive and he did just want to unite mankind for its survival.

Or perhaps there was a sinister motive. We don´t know, that´s my point.

(...)
Still have no idea on what your train of thought has to do with the original post.

"Would the humanity be better off if there had never been an Emperor?"

To fully answer the question, we need to know what does the Emperor want. He did a lot of things, during thousands of years, and changed humanity forever.

If he wanted to help mankind, he probably triggered the AoS for our benefit (evolution?), trained an army of pariahs to fight chaos (the Sisters of Silence) and waged war against evil to save us. Then humanity is in debt with him. He did his best to help us.

If he is just manipulating humanity as a tool, because he is some form of chaos monster, a hidden C´tan or whatever, then all the things he did he did it at the cost of humanity´s suffering, and humanity would be better off without him. Like the AoS being triggered to destroy our golden age because he needed a dark age, and the SoS being abominations to taint the very human soul. And he deliberately caused the Heresy to create the (hellish) current state of the setting.

My personal headcanon is the whole "thousands of shamans" thing is pure myth and the Emperor came from the same science project that created the Primarchs and the Marines. (In some of the older fluff, it makes clear he's not brewing up the clones himself, it's a Manhattan Project-like enterprise). If he's a god, he didn't intend to be, and going by his attitude towards religion in general and people worshipping him in particular, he didn't want to be.

So my headcanon Emperor isn't a millennia-old puppet master. He's a tragic hero, an extraordinary human who did some extraordinary things both good and bad, limited as he was by his time and place -- Terra at the end of the Age of Strife, which I imagine he was created to end -- and whose ultimate legacy was nothing like what he intended it to be. Heresy it may be, but I just find it more interesting, more....well.... human.

As for the original poster's question: no idea. There's too much unknown about who the Emperor really is, what the galaxy was like before he conquered it, and what Chaos or Xenos powers would have done once the warp storm lifted with the birth of Slaanesh. I resort to headcanon because "canon" deliberately, even brilliantly, leaves the key questions unanswered.

4th: If the Imperium didn't kill the Eldar as often as they helped them, the Eldar might be more willing to negotiate. Yes, the Eldar are racist as crap, but they don't have a "kill all lesser races" policy. They also aren't stupid enough to pick a fight where no fight is necessary. Experience has taught them that the Imperium will only cooperate when an ax is hanging over both their heads. Also, this isn't limited to just the Eldar or Tau. There have been many other lesser alien races in the 40k universe that would have been more agreeable to an alliance. The Imperium has hunted most of them to extinction and turned the rest into enemies.

Yeah I believe it was the Diasporex who were a civilisation of humans AND various xenos that had found a way to peacefully co-exist. The IOM shows up and says to the humans, abandon your Xenos and the rest of you can live. They obviously disagree because selling out their friends to some new bully is a idiot thing to do. The Imperium then wages a war of extermination against them, not bothering to learn how their civilisation works or their history. Just deciding that all xenos are bad so must die. Do the Diasporex prove their tricksy ways and defend themselves? No, they try to peacefully leave Imperial space until the Emperor's Children and Iron Hands trap them in system and massacre them. Ok well at least they're under the light of the Emperor now right? Nooope all of the aliens get exterminated on the spot and all of the humans are enslaved, for commiting a crime against a man that they had never even heard of before. Way to go for enlightnenment Imperium. The final words of the alien captain were "We only wished to be left alone".

There was also a short story where a squad of Space Wolves helps a planet break free of Dark Eldar oppression. Then when the newly liberated world decides it wants to enjoy it's newfound independence, the Imperium immediately massacres the government and seizes control. This was a world that would have been a willing ally and yet the Imperium has a policy of oppression, so alliances will never be honoured or upheld.
Inexplicably though, the High Lords of Terra wanted Fulgrim to make Laeran a protectorate of the Imperium, despite being an entirely hostile, Slaaneshi worshipping society of alien slug monsters just because it would have been hassle to beat them in a war.
Point is, if you lived in a nice, perfectly good society and then a massive fleet shows up and says swear fealty to us or be exterminated, would you really see that as being enlightened? Or would you give up your life for the posibility of preserving your way of life against these foreign tyrants?

I have only read the OP, but has anyone brought this up?
In the rulebook Annals section it recounts the Age of Technology, where the entire new age of Mankind collapsed into the warp, and basically was ripped apart by the very force it intended to use to make it great again. Most technology was lost to the times and many worlds were consumed with madness and death. Many worlds were tainted into mutants and others were simply forgotten in the vaccum of space.
It wasn't until the Emperor came that Terra and Mankind began to begin anew. The Emperor allowed space travel to begin and mankind began to rebuild their great civilization from the ashes of their old one. The Emperor united the rival factions of Terra and the Mars techpriests into one unstoppable force aided by the Space Marines. Now some would say that 'Oh no, without the Space Marines the Horus Heresy wouldn't happen and humanity would be safe' in fact its the other way around. The Imperial Army and the Space Marines together formed an unstoppable force that claimed many thousands of worlds in a short span of time, that would never have been possible if it weren't for the Emperors guidance. The Space Marines created by the Emperor were the reason for worlds such as Armageddon, Mordia, Tallarn, Macragge and many other worlds to even exist as worlds inhabited to mankind. In many respects mankind was allowed to exist BECAUSE of the Emperor, and it wasn't really his fault that drove the legions of Horus, Logar and the others of the Chaos Heresy force to rebel and almost tear the Imperium asunder, nor was it his fault that the Imperium turned into a ruthless, cold hearted machine of fury and vengeance. He merely guided humanity into the light of unification and tried to put them into the light. He was put onto the throne to be the beacon of hope against the darkness of space and the warp and didn't force mankind to worship him with religious zeal nor did he influence any of their decisions of the High Lords of Terra nor did he form the Ecclarisary. Everything since his slaining at the hands of Horus has been the decisions of the mortal man, and no one else, for he is now a rotting carcass tortured into service to be a beacon of hope for mankind. What mankind does to itself he can only watch helplessly, for he provided the foundations for the Empire, but he gave them power to begin anew and they had the potential, but misused it like so many of our real world companions and dictators have done.
In response to the aliens and xenos, who wouldn't be afraid of aliens and subhumans that view us as a threat and try to kill us? Some of them may have come harmlessly, but we had to view all other non-human races AS well as humans with prejudice because that was the only way mankind could trust the stars, because they didn't want to have potential enemies staring them in the face and backstabbing them at their weakest. Psykers as well were ill trained and the Emperor saw this horrible fate that awaited non-trained psykers and their endless torment if they misused their powers and got possessed by demons, because he saw into the warp space and saw the enemy staring back at him. Unfortunately, Marines like Magnus just kind of lost control and mighty heroes were brought low because of the manifestations of the warp, and the Emperor could not let this happen to his people, and so tried to get as many pyskers enlightenment as possible. When this couldn't be achieved he tried to ban it for he saw the dangers were anifesting at atrocious rates and that many pyskers were becoming needle points for the Heresy, subconsciously joining Horus's forces in the heresy.