Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
2015/05/17 01:39:39
Subject: Re:Principalities, Reprise: Super Melee Seraphim, striking from the sky with lance & shield
In brief:
1) Principalities definitely need access to the Act of Faith that grants +2 Initiative.
2) They also desperately need some way to avoid being charged. Hit & Run, even with bonuses, won't cut it: They need to avoid being charged in the first place.
3) The +2 Initiative AOF is currently in the Book of Acts, a homebrew wargear item for HQ characters -- and I want to keep it there, rather than make it unique to Principalities.
So:
4) I'm going to give the Principalities' Superior the option of buying a Book of Acts, as a way to get the +2I Act.
5) I'm going to change the Principalities' own AOF to "jump out of the way of a charge." Specifically, I'm thinking that, after an enemy unit declares a charge, the Principalities get to attempt their AOF and, if successful, move back 1D6, increasingly the chance the charge will fail. Is that unfair? Ineffective? Good?
At length:
Spoiler:
I've done a ton of math on this unit over the last week. I came up with a Excel spreadsheet that let me do lots of variations: charging vs. being charged, wielding lance vs. swords, I:5 vs. I:3, against all sorts of opponents. My findings (which may be intuitively obvious to experienced players):
1) An Act of Faith that boosts Initiative to 5 is indeed a big damn deal -- in many match-ups but by no means all. I'm not just talking about opponents like Orks and Necrons, where the Sisters would go first regardless and the boost makes literally no difference, but other cases where it makes a significant but not dramatic difference, such as Striking Scorpions.
2) Principalities charging with boosted Initiative, regardless of weapon, do horrible, horrible things to Marines of all sorts: Tac squads, Bikers, Chaos Chosen, even Assault Terminators. They also wipe out Sicarian Ruststalkers without taking any casualties of their own. Since Marines of various kinds are the most common models in the game, this alone justifies Principalities' existence.
3) Principalities drown in bodies against infantry that's cheaper than Marines -- e.g. IG -- especially cheap melee troops -- such as Ork Boyz and Dark Eldar Wyches. They don't put out enough attacks to compensate for being outnumbered.
4) Principalities do decently against Monstrous Creatures, though their performance varies widely from at best stalemating a Riptide to nearly killing a Carnifex.
5) Lances are significantly better than swords on the charge, but they're so much worse when charged by MEQ (because they're only AP:4 then) that it arguably cancels out.
5) No matter what the matchup, initiative, or weapons, Principalities do miserably when someone else gets the charge on them. Just awful.
I've attached my Excel for the masochistic among you. They use a rather arcane metric called "kill ratio." Basically, for any given matchup, I calculate the number of models killed on each side (on average), multiply by the points value for model, and then divide the number of points the Principalities killed by the number of points of Principalities that got killed. Kill ratios greater than 1.0 means the Principalities dealt out more damage than they took; kill ratios less than 1.0 mean they took more than dealt.
And yes, throwing a unit at another unit of precisely equal points value is lousy tactics -- you want to tie up big enemy units with a small number of your own points while massing your own points against vastly outmatched enemies -- but it's a worthwhile analytical exercise.
Homebrew unit mathhammer - Excel - Principalities w lances
File size
89 Kbytes
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
This is where my mathhammering led me: an AOF to evade charges, an easy option for a Book of Acts (to allow them the +2 Initiative Act), and a simulacrum-equivalent to let them do two Acts per game.
Unit Composition: 4 Principalities, 1 Principality Superior Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Superior is Jump Infantry (character)
Wargear: power armor, storm shield, power lance, frag grenades, krak grenades, jump pack
Special Rules: Act of Faith, Shield of Faith, Furious Charge, Hit & Run
Blaze of Glory
The Principalities descend from the heavens with a speed, skill, and fury unmatched by other jump troops. They use their jump packs to accelerate their fall, rather than to brake it, until the last possible moment, descending face-first with their storm shields held out in front to protect from the friction of their rush through the atmosphere. By the time they land, their shields are glowing hot and their force fields are crackling. This energetic interaction -- and, say the faithful, the blessing of the God-Emperor -- gives them extra protection at a moment of tactical vulnerability. After a unit of Principalities enters play by Deep Strike, it may reroll failed saves against shooting attacks until the beginning of its next turn.
Act of Faith: Leap of Faith: As if warned by holy voices, the Principalities take to the sky before the infidel can charge them. One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in the enemy's Assault Phase, immediately after an enemy unit has declared a charge against the Principalities, but before rolling for charge distance. (Note this is an exception to the normal rules about when Acts may be attempted). If successful, roll 1D6 and immediately move the Principality squad (with all attached characters) that number of inches.
Options: May add up to five additional Principalities: 30 points per model Any model may replace her power lance with a power sword: free Any model may take melta bombs: 5 pts The Principality Superior may replace her power lance with an Eviscerator: 15 pts The Principality Superior may take a Laud Hailer: 10 pts The Principality Superior may take Purity Seals: 15 pts The Principality Superior may take a Book of Acts: 15 pts One model may replace her power lance with Longinus Lance: 15 pts
Longinus Lance An ancient power lance with sacred relics embedded in the shaft. A model with a Longinus Lance counts as having both a Power Lance and a Simulacrum Imperialis.
Descending from the heavens in gleaming glory, the Principalities are the elite of the elite among the Sisterhood. To join their ranks, a Sister must first prove herself as a jump trooper among the Seraphim and as a close combatant among the Celestians. Only then is she deemed worthy of the powerful and venerable wargear of the Principalities: a forcefield-generating Storm Shield and an armor-penetrating power weapon, typically a lance. With these the Principalities practice tactics of hit and run and hit again, falling upon the foe and then swiftly wheeling out of reach. To make the very most of their abilities, Principalities are the only soldiers of the Sororitas whose Superiors are permitted to carry a Book of Acts (typically turned to the Litany of the Quick and the Dead), a right normally reserved to Palatines and Canonesses. A wise Sororitas commander knows that, for all their superior skill and wargear, the Principalities remain as mortal as any other Sister and must not be committed to prolonged slogging matches. Instead, the Sororitas use them either as the flying spearhead of Deep Strike attacks, often escorted and screened by Seraphim, or as a highly mobile counterattack force, kept behind the line until the crucial moment.
Costing:
Spoiler:
Start with Seraphim @ 15 ppm
Add Furious Charge: 10 points Upgrade to Celestian statline w/ +1 A (+10) and +1 Ld (+5): 15 pts Add Storm shield: 10 ppm for Elites per C:SM Add power weapon: 15 ppm for SCS per C:AS Total additions: +50 pts
Convert Angelic Visage (reroll failed 6++ on any turn) to Blaze of Glory (reroll failed 3++, but only once per game, only after Deep Strike, and only vs. shooting): a wash?
Remove both bolt pistols, leaving no ranged firepower: -5 ppm
Net: +45 points Per Ovion, divide by 3 for elite troops (and yes, you can discount the wargear costs too, otherwise you can't explain Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, or Repentia having 15-pt power weapons when they're only 14-15 pts per model). 45/3 = 15 points
15+15 = 30.
Book of Acts (for reference):
Spoiler:
Book of Acts: 15 points Reciting the miraculous acts of Imperial saints, the leaders of the Sororitas can inspire their Sisters to perform feats beyond their regular training. When the character with the Book of Acts or the squad she has joined attempts an Act of Faith, she or they may attempt one of the Acts below instead of their regular Act from Codex:Adepta Sororitas. The Book does not grant an additional use of Acts of Faith. Divine Wind: Borne as on eagles' wings, the Sisters rush forward firing with uncanny speed, accuracy, and grace. This Act may be used in the Shooting Phase. If successful, the unit may both Run and shoot in this phase, in either order (i.e. shoot, then run; or run, then shoot). A unit cannot use this Act and fire any Heavy weapons in the same phase unless it is also Relentless. Prophetic Warning:As if forewarned, the Sisters calmly turn their weapons on charging foes and cut them down. This Act may be used whenever an enemy declares a charge against the unit with the book, immediately before resolving Overwatch.* If successful, the unit may fire overwatch at its normal Ballistic Skill. A unit that cannot fire Overwatch cannot attempt this Act. The Whole Armour of Faith: The Sisters steel themselves both spiritually and physically against the unbelievers' blows. This Act may be used whenever an enemy attacks the unit with the Book, immediately before the enemy rolls to hit.* If successful, all models in the unit gain an invulnerable save equal to their normal armour save for the remainder of the phase. The Quick and the Dead: The Sisters slice through their enemies with miraculous speed. This Act may be used in your Assault Phase, immediately before a unit charges.* If successful, every model in the unit adds +2 to its Initiative. * These Acts are exceptions to the normal rule that units can only attempt Acts before they move, shoot, run, or strike blows.
Automatically Appended Next Post: P.S.: If you really want to get the most out of this unit, you give them a Chorister with a jump pack (60 points) and they suddenly have War Hymns.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/05/18 02:11:10
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
They have too many answers to every situation. They're like Craftworld Warp spiders, but also rather hard to pin down in Assault.
I'd give them Counter-charge and change their Act of Faith to let them Charge the same turn they Deepstrike like 5th ed Space Marine Vanguard. Maybe also let the Act of Faith give them Rage or something for turns after they Deepstrike.
This way they're not invincible the turn they arrive, which can really get out of hand when you use them to contest or capture objectives last turn.
This is a really good idea. A dedicated assault jump unit for sisters fills a nice role, the extra durability from deep strike mitigates one of the weaknesses of using them in that manner, and they've got some solid equipment that fits very well with their aesthetic and fluff. Very well executed.
Also today I learned what a Principality is I admit I thought the name was silly, so I looked it up and now I realize it's actually quite appropriate, lol.
2015/05/22 22:22:17
Subject: Principalities, Reprise: Super Melee Seraphim, striking from the sky with lance & shield
J3f wrote: They have too many answers to every situation. They're like Craftworld Warp spiders, but also rather hard to pin down in Assault.
I'd give them Counter-charge and change their Act of Faith to let them Charge the same turn they Deepstrike like 5th ed Space Marine Vanguard. Maybe also let the Act of Faith give them Rage or something for turns after they Deepstrike.
This way they're not invincible the turn they arrive, which can really get out of hand when you use them to contest or capture objectives last turn.
Giving them counter-attack might be more Sisterly than letting them dance away from a charge, true. But they still wouldn't get their Furious Charge bonus or the better profile for their Lances unless I made a really special rule. Which I could do... "If this Act of Faith succeeds, the Principalities count as having charged."
And I hadn't thought about the combination of a rerollable 3++ against shooting (after a Deep Strike) with the "jump away from charges" special rule. I was trying to make Deep Strike less suicidal, but the combo may be too much.
On the other hand, I'm not so worried about last turn objective grabs from deep strike: Reserve rolls and deep strike are too unreliable to count on, and if you do somehow use reserve manipulation to hold 30-point models back until the last turn, you've handicapped yourself the rest of the game.
Nor am I going to allow charging after deep strike, as that appears to be thoroughly gone from the game and Blood Angels fans would (rightfully) howl if I gave their lost speciality to a homebrew unit.
Automatically Appended Next Post: PS: Credit to DoomShakaLaka for the "always counts as charging" idea, which s/he proposed in a PM.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2015/05/22 22:24:19
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
Since these are elite choices I wouldn't worry about them taking objectives last minute. No obsec = no worries.
Space Marines: Jacks of all trades yet masters of GRAV CANNONS!!!.
My Star Wars Imperial Codex Project: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/641831.page It has 7 HQs, 2 Troop types with Dedicated Transports, 5 Elite units, 5 Fast Attack units, 6 Heavy Support units, 2 Formations with unique units not in the rest of the codex, and 2 LOW choices.
‘I do not care who knows the truth now, tomorrow, or in ten thousand years. Loyalty is its own reward.’ -Lion El' Jonson
2015/06/08 02:53:48
Subject: Principalities, Reprise: Super Melee Seraphim, striking from the sky with lance & shield
Here's the finally final version. I kept the "jump away from charges" Act of Faith, because letting them count as charging even when charged seemed overpowered, but I made it so they can't use that Act when they've first landed by Deep Strike. They can get +2 Initiative if they need it (which is usually) from a Book of Acts, which I'm going to make available to any Sister Superior in any squad -- I was feeling weird about giving it just to Principalities and the original idea was to replicate Codex:Witchhunters pick-an-act flexibility. If you don't care about striking first, however, any Principality now has the option to upgrade to an Eviscerator, not just the Superior, so these girls are now a combination of Celestian, Seraphim, and Repentia.
Unit Composition: 4 Principalities, 1 Principality Superior
Unit Type: Jump Infantry; Superior is Jump Infantry (character)
Wargear: power armor, storm shield, power lance, frag grenades, krak grenades, jump pack
Special Rules: Act of Faith, Shield of Faith, Furious Charge, Hit & Run
Blaze of Glory The Principalities descend from the heavens with a speed, skill, and fury unmatched by other jump troops. They use their jump packs to accelerate their fall, rather than to brake it, until the last possible moment, descending face-first with their storm shields held out in front to protect from the friction of their rush through the atmosphere. By the time they land, their shields are glowing hot and their force fields are crackling. This energetic interaction -- and, say the faithful, the blessing of the God-Emperor -- gives them extra protection at a moment of tactical vulnerability. After a unit of Principalities enters play by Deep Strike, it may reroll failed saves against shooting attacks until the beginning of its next turn. However, it may not attempt a Leap of Faith in the turn it arrives by Deep Strike.
Act of Faith: Leap of Faith: As if warned by holy voices, the Principalities take to the sky before the infidel can charge them. One use only. This Act of Faith can be used in the enemy's Assault Phase, immediately after an enemy unit has declared a charge against the Principalities, but before rolling for charge distance. (Note this is an exception to the normal rules about when Acts may be attempted). If successful, immediately move the Principality squad (with all attached characters) 3". Note this may cause the enemy's charge to fail.
Options:
May add up to five additional Principalities: 30 points per model
Any model may replace her power lance with a power sword: free
Any model may replace her power lance and storm shield with an Eviscerator: 5 pts
Any model may take melta bombs: 5 pts
The Principality Superior may take a Laud Hailer: 10 pts
The Principality Superior may take Purity Seals: 15 pts
The Principality Superior may take a Book of Acts: 15 pts
One model may replace her power lance with Longinus Lance: 15 pts
Longinus Lance An ancient power lance with sacred relics embedded in the shaft. A model with a Longinus Lance counts as having both a Power Lance and a Simulacrum Imperialis.
Descending from the heavens in gleaming glory, the Principalities are the elite of the elite among the Sisterhood. To join their ranks, a Sister must first prove herself as a jump trooper among the Seraphim and as a close combatant among the Celestians. Only then is she deemed worthy of the powerful and venerable wargear of the Principalities: a forcefield-generating Storm Shield and an armor-penetrating power weapon, typically a lance. With these the Principalities practice tactics of hit and run and hit again, falling upon the foe and then swiftly wheeling out of reach. To make the very most of their abilities, Principality Superiors frequently carry a Book of Acts, typically turned to the Litany of the Quick and the Dead to speed their strikes in combat.
A wise Sororitas commander knows that, for all their superior skill and wargear, the Principalities remain as mortal as any other Sister and must not be committed to prolonged slogging matches. Instead, the Sororitas use them either as the flying spearhead of Deep Strike attacks, often escorted and screened by Seraphim, or as a highly mobile counterattack force, kept behind the line until the crucial moment.
Costing:
Spoiler:
Start with Seraphim @ 15 ppm
Add Furious Charge: 10 points
Upgrade to Celestian statline w/ +1 A (+10) and +1 Ld (+5): 15 pts
Add Storm shield: 10 ppm for Elites per C:SM Add power weapon: 15 ppm for SCS per C:AS Total additions: +50 pts
Convert Angelic Visage (reroll failed 6++ on any turn) to Blaze of Glory (reroll failed 3++, but only once per game, only after Deep Strike, and only vs. shooting): a wash?
Remove both bolt pistols, leaving no ranged firepower: -5 ppm
Net: +45 points
Per Ovion, divide by 3 for elite troops (and yes, you can discount the wargear costs too, otherwise you can't explain Crusaders, Death Cult Assassins, or Repentia having 15-pt power weapons when they're only 14-15 pts per model).
45/3 = 15 points
15+15 = 30.
[EDIT: Oops, forgot that Eviscerator is two-handed and should replace both power weapon and storm shield.]
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2015/06/18 19:35:55
BURN IT DOWN BURN IT DOWN BABY BURN IT DOWN
Psienesis wrote: Well, if you check out Sister Sydney's homebrew/expansion rules, you'll find all kinds of units the Sisters could have, that fit with the theme of the Sisters (as a tabletop army) perfectly well, and are damn-near-perfectly balanced.
![[Disk]](/dakkaforum/templates/default/images/icon_disk.gif){kind=icon}
I admit I thought the name was silly, so I looked it up and now I realize it's actually quite appropriate, 
