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So I often see this discussion and it generally boils down to "If the store goes out of business you'll have no place to play" and while I agree in part, at some point IMHO it has to come down to what you're spending versus saving a lot by ordering online, even without getting into possible logisctics like the store having trouble getting orders from distributors.

So is there really any other argument that can be put forth besides buying from a place you want to stay open? For instance, I just recently looked at some Warmachine things I wanted to order. Now, my store gives a 10% discount, but they also have to charge 7% sales tax, so in reality I'm only getting 3% off of retail. I calculated what I wanted to buy and it basically came out to $284.91 retail. Factoring in my local store's discount but paying sales tax, it came to $274.37, or a savings of around $10. Compare that with ordering from a well-known online store that offers a 30% discount and free 2-day shipping, it comes to $199.44, or a savings of almost $75 more than buying locally; for that price I could buy another unit plus additional things!

Those savings, to me, far outweigh paying $75 more just to buy them from a local shop. If the savings was closer together it might be a harder choice, but really there's no comparison there that I can tell. Loyalty to a store is one thing, but when you're saving almost $100 off a $300 order?

I've started just ordering the cheap things locally, because the savings are minuscule, but ordering anything like $50 or more online where I get a hefty discount as well as free shipping. I just can't justify saving less than $11 versus saving over $85 on the same order.

So if you buy online, and you game primarily 'in store', then how do you expect the store to stay open and provide you space to play? By selling you marked-up retail snickers bars? Your 17 cents 3 times a month really goes a long way to justifying keeping a large part of the store space open.

If you don't play at a store and don't need it for your gaming space, then you have no reason to make sure they exist via contributing your business.

It is the difference between people who go out to eat and pay a higher price and 20% tip vs those who buy food and take it home to cook themselves... If you want a restaurant to serve your needs, then you have to go there and pay the premium... otherwise be happy clipping coupons and eating at home.

I try to buy locally, but will order if they don't stock something I like. I don't really play in shops, but I like having them nearby to visit. I also don't like online ordering because it is inconvenient for me to have things delivered where I live.

nkelsch wrote:
So if you buy online, and you game primarily 'in store', then how do you expect the store to stay open and provide you space to play? By selling you marked-up retail snickers bars? Your 17 cents 3 times a month really goes a long way to justifying keeping a large part of the store space open.

If you don't play at a store and don't need it for your gaming space, then you have no reason to make sure they exist via contributing your business.

It is the difference between people who go out to eat and pay a higher price and 20% tip vs those who buy food and take it home to cook themselves... If you want a restaurant to serve your needs, then you have to go there and pay the premium... otherwise be happy clipping coupons and eating at home.

This is valid but IMHO only to a point. I mean there's a huge difference in saving $75, if the savings was like $20 or even $30 it'd be like okay, it's a small price to pay for supporting the local shop. But at $75 it becomes a lot more of a "Why the hell am I paying $75 more for worse service" kind of thing. At least to me. That's a lot of money in the context of the game.

I care that the stores stay in business but at the end of the day I care about my money more. When I spend a day gaming at the store I'll usually buy a kit. I consider it like this.

I probably could have gotten it 25% less but I get to take it home and build it right away plus I got to play all day in someones shop. It's worth the 25% and it helps the store out a little bit.

However - 90% of the stuff I get is going to be from ebay or some other source.

I think it's easy to enough to make weekly impulse purchases at a store (paint, a blister or two, so on) and then make your big online savings when starting a new army, or game, or whatever. That way, even if you are paying more for your small purchases, in the grand scheme of things there won't be too much of a difference.

There's no law that says you have to decide on one method of purchasing for all your hobby spending ever.

Having said that, I don't have an LGS so buy it all online.

I like my FLGS and the people there, so buying stuff there is a small price to pay. I typically buy GW stuff online, but things I don't mind paying retail for, like X-wing, terrain, brushes, paint and 'I want it now' purchases make up the bulk of my game store purchases.

Help the local store where you can and impulse buy there.
Big items like an Imperial Knight you MUST shop around.
They just cost too much to throw your money away.

It really depends on your conscience, they are a business not a charity or your friends so some thought must be given if their level of service deserves support.

First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

Ahem....anyway there is also the concept of convenience and utility to add in.

Shops good it you want stuff.....NOW!

They are also vital if you are in need of a zone of manly mandollies in a day that might otherwise be taken up with being dragged around the shops lying about how good the Mrs looks in something stupid.

Also you don't have to deal with the random professionalism of delivery couriers, who might deliver the parcel on time to someone else, deliver late but pretend you weren't in before (you were but they said you weren't!), put your parcel through a grater or possibly maybe deliver it to you assuming the online store has the item/the wherewithal to send it out quickly.

Finally there is the point at which 10-15% off really doesn't mean much. Its nice oh yes, but really if you like having a games shop near your where you can see like minded freaks, actually handle what you want to buy, a few quid less in your pocket is a small price to pay.

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.
Ahem....anyway there is also the concept of convenience and utility to add in.
Shops good it you want stuff.....NOW!
They are also vital if you are in need of a zone of manly mandollies in a day that might otherwise be taken up with being dragged around the shops lying about how good the Mrs looks in something stupid.
Also you don't have to deal with the random professionalism of delivery couriers, who might deliver the parcel on time to someone else, deliver late but pretend you weren't in before (you were but they said you weren't!), put your parcel through a grater or possibly maybe deliver it to you assuming the online store has the item/the wherewithal to send it out quickly.
Finally there is the point at which 10-15% off really doesn't mean much. Its nice oh yes, but really if you like having a games shop near your where you can see like minded freaks, actually handle what you want to buy, a few quid less in your pocket is a small price to pay.

QFT.
My favorite is parking a big parcel in the middle of your porch in broad daylight just prior to when school lets out the kids... parcel? I did not receive no stinking parcel!!??
Meeting my "peers" in a hobby store is so soothing, I meet people with a "passion" for gaming that makes me feel sooooo normal.
Dragging the Mrs into a hobby store causes her about as much pain as 10 of hers for you... priceless.
(What is that smell?, What IS this stuff??, People leave their children unattended here???, What, that ONE card, is $40???? How much are your models again?????, Why are these guys smiling at me and winking at you??????)

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

There are a lot of reasons... We have different tax rates per types of products, different items can have different tax rates depending on who sells them, Different states, cities and so on have different tax rates but prices may cross multiple states or cities with individual tax rates, many shoppers may show tax-exempt ID and get the products without tax at the register.

Here is an example: My parents live in a beach community. They have Best buy. Best Buy has multiple stores. They have an 'east coast' advertisement and commercial which says a DVD is 19.99$

Their state has 6% sales tax, The City has 10% sales tax. Other states have other various taxes. Depending where you purchase the item, your tax is different. So it is impossible to have a standard 'price' to advertise when it would either need to be various price to include the appropriate tax.

nkelsch wrote:

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

There are a lot of reasons... We have different tax rates per types of products, different items can have different tax rates depending on who sells them, Different states, cities and so on have different tax rates but prices may cross multiple states or cities with individual tax rates, many shoppers may show tax-exempt ID and get the products without tax at the register.

Here is an example: My parents live in a beach community. They have Best buy. Best Buy has multiple stores. They have an 'east coast' advertisement and commercial which says a DVD is 19.99$

Their state has 6% sales tax, The City has 10% sales tax. Other states have other various taxes. Depending where you purchase the item, your tax is different. So it is impossible to have a standard 'price' to advertise when it would either need to be various price to include the appropriate tax.

Do not bore me with "facts" and "logic", its stupid and annoying.

Just stop it.

Here's a "fact". You know Bin Laden was a cool guy once but he snapped when he bought a $5 pack of smokes and it cost $5.37. Poor feller only had $5 tucked in his Pyjamas. Talk about embarrassing, you can see why he flipped. Shame he held a grudge like that but the point stands.......

 notprop wrote:

nkelsch wrote:

 notprop wrote:
First of all why does America insist on having prices without tax included, so damn annoying I cannot even begin to express my befuddlement at such a concept.

There are a lot of reasons... We have different tax rates per types of products, different items can have different tax rates depending on who sells them, Different states, cities and so on have different tax rates but prices may cross multiple states or cities with individual tax rates, many shoppers may show tax-exempt ID and get the products without tax at the register.

Here is an example: My parents live in a beach community. They have Best buy. Best Buy has multiple stores. They have an 'east coast' advertisement and commercial which says a DVD is 19.99$

Their state has 6% sales tax, The City has 10% sales tax. Other states have other various taxes. Depending where you purchase the item, your tax is different. So it is impossible to have a standard 'price' to advertise when it would either need to be various price to include the appropriate tax.

Do not bore me with "facts" and "logic", its stupid and annoying.

Just stop it.

Here's a "fact". You know Bin Laden was a cool guy once but he snapped when he bought a $5 pack of smokes and it cost $5.37. Poor feller only had $5 tucked in his Pyjamas. Talk about embarrassing, you can see why he flipped. Shame he held a grudge like that but the point stands.......

The real reason is you are likely to buy less if the tax is included on the labeled price. The price looks lower so you think it cost less subconsciously. How would they be able to play their 1.99 and 5.99 games if they had to include tax in the price shown?

I recently came to the conclusion that my passion for miniatures is less about gaming and more about having a hobby. I'm definitely not the type just trying to get a game from anybody and everybody. So the LGS has little appeal for me as a social space. I therefore look at a LGS like any other store: it's a matter of inventory and price. When it comes to inventory, LGS rarely have anything I am looking for as someone who does not play 40k, WM/H, or CCGs. When it comes to price, we need to face facts: retail pricing is premium pricing -- there better be something on the consumer-side to justify marking up the product. The usual justification for me is instant gratification. For others, it might be a warm feeling toward the business.

I buy online for the 25-30% off. If the FLGS I go to shuts down, I guess I'll go to one of the other FLGS. There's 8 within 20 miles of me that carry 40k/WMH and always have people playing there. When 6 go out of business because of jerks like me, I'll start buying stuff locally to make sure the last 2 stay open. Some of them give 10% off, but our tax here is almost 10% (thanks to everyone in this state living off the government and selling dime bags) so 10% discount puts you back to MSRP. For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online where there's no sales tax and I get free shipping. No matter how much I love a store, I'm not paying almost double for the same product unless it's something I cant wait for (paint) or is sold out online (skaven dice).

 Toofast wrote:
I buy online for the 25-30% off. If the FLGS I go to shuts down, I guess I'll go to one of the other FLGS. There's 8 within 20 miles of me that carry 40k/WMH and always have people playing there. When 6 go out of business because of jerks like me, I'll start buying stuff locally to make sure the last 2 stay open. Some of them give 10% off, but our tax here is almost 10% (thanks to everyone in this state living off the government and selling dime bags) so 10% discount puts you back to MSRP. For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online where there's no sales tax and I get free shipping. No matter how much I love a store, I'm not paying almost double for the same product unless it's something I cant wait for (paint) or is sold out online (skaven dice).

That's exactly my point. With 7% sales tax, a 10% discount is a joke and barely anything. For little things here and there sure, but for major purchases? Why would I spend more money when I can spend less and use what I saved to get something additional?

My flgs saved me. I was wreckin' myself with the booze, the women, the securities, snorting resin just to make my eyes water. Then I walked into the hobby shop and learned that I could be free--that I didn't need chemicals or drama or chlamydia to spend hundreds of dollars on my own shame. Now I'm cleanish and sober and a neurotic hoarder who makes others deeply uncomfortable. At my flgs, I belong

Really, though, I just like to get away and make some impulse purchases. Whenever they offer to order something in, I just look at them, they look at me, and we both laugh.

 Talizvar wrote:

Dragging the Mrs into a hobby store causes her about as much pain as 10 of hers for you... priceless.
(What is that smell?, What IS this stuff??, People leave their children unattended here???, What, that ONE card, is $40???? How much are your models again?????, Why are these guys smiling at me and winking at you??????)

This right here is worth 25%. There are only two places on this Earth where I am guaranteed some time to myself: 1) The bathroom; 2) The hobby shop. I'm afraid if I ever use the bathroom at the hobby shop, I might drop out of this reality altogether into some sort of hyperbolic time chamber.

Also, there's a pedicure shop next door, which is a ploy worthy of Lex Luthor.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Toofast wrote:
For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online

Not even close. You seem to be assuming 30% discount, so let's roll with that. If you compare a purchase with MSRP at $100, online you would spend $70 and in the store you would spend $110, a difference of $40. $40 is 57% of $70. So, you would be spending 57% more than you have to, which is a pretty big argument against buying in your local store.

Side thought: It's worth asking if they'll meet you in the middle on large orders. Maybe the shop always runs 10% off, but if you're going to place a $300 order, let them know your situation and see if they'll meet you at 15 or 20% off. Most stores will take a lesser sale over no sale at all. Worst case scenario they say no.

Just don't abuse it and try to do it all the time - just bring it up when you're placing big orders at once, not for every pot of paint.

 Toofast wrote:
I buy online for the 25-30% off. If the FLGS I go to shuts down, I guess I'll go to one of the other FLGS. There's 8 within 20 miles of me that carry 40k/WMH and always have people playing there. When 6 go out of business because of jerks like me, I'll start buying stuff locally to make sure the last 2 stay open. Some of them give 10% off, but our tax here is almost 10% (thanks to everyone in this state living off the government and selling dime bags) so 10% discount puts you back to MSRP. For stores that don't have a 10% discount, I'm paying 40% more than I would online where there's no sales tax and I get free shipping. No matter how much I love a store, I'm not paying almost double for the same product unless it's something I cant wait for (paint) or is sold out online (skaven dice).

The irony of you calling people in your state mooches and 'living off the government' when you are basically doing the exact same thing with gaming and FLGS where you are entitled to have your gaming subsidized while everyone else foots the bill by paying where they play.

Maybe stores will get smart and just simply ban you.

First of all, the stores also sell MtG, Yu gi oh, board games, etc. They aren't going to live or die on 40k/WMH sales. Second, how am I doing the same thing? If they wanted to charge me for table space I would happily pay for it. I could rent a table all day every day and still save money. It's their choice to determine how much they want to charge for their products/services and it's my choice as to where I spend my money. I'm not paying $110 for a $70 item. I'm not going to throw $40-80 a week out the window for no reason. If the stores want my money they will either change their prices or charge for tables. They're free to ban me if they wish and I'm free to shop elsewhere.

Edited by RiTides

A game store is a business, not a charity. If they want my business, they need to offer me something to earn it. In this day and age they're competing with 30% and basically unlimited stock and guaranteed stock. Obviously they can't compete with that, but there has to be something more than "I have game tables" IMHO. Years ago this wasn't the case, but this is the 21st century. Just offering space doesn't cut it anymore.

The ultimate question isn't about the money.

The ultimate question is, do you have an alternate place to play at if the game store goes under because you're buying stuff online?

If the game store goes under and there's no alternate place to play, how much good does saving that money do you? You wind up wasting ALL the money you spent on the game because it's now just a bunch of paperweights.

 Riquende wrote:
I think it's easy to enough to make weekly impulse purchases at a store (paint, a blister or two, so on) and then make your big online savings when starting a new army, or game, or whatever. That way, even if you are paying more for your small purchases, in the grand scheme of things there won't be too much of a difference.

There's no law that says you have to decide on one method of purchasing for all your hobby spending ever.

Having said that, I don't have an LGS so buy it all online.

I'm in the same boat. Did have two stores within a 30-40 minute drive, now one is gone and the other has been neutered to the point that it's not worth the visit.

Don't think the situation is good in the UK for FLGS, as far as I know we have lost in just the past few years (maybe more?)
- Cut & Thrust
- Total Wargamer
- Maelstrom Games

Essentially, the goverment has done sweet feth-all to try and help retailers compete with online business, and it seems (looking at the state of the high street in most towns) local councils would rather have a row of closed down stores and charity shops than reduce rates or introduce schemes to pull punters into town such as free parking for shoppers. Wargaming stores seem to have been a casualty along with many others.

 Toofast wrote:
. They're free to ban me if they wish and I'm free to shop elsewhere. I still don't see how me spending money I worked for at the places with the best prices can be equated to people who sit on the couch all day, eat everything in baby mommas fridge and sell dime bags on the corner to go buy king cobra and black n milds.

But... you are not an actual customer... So taking your money 'elsewhere' is an empty threat because you are ALREADY shopping elsewhere. And you would pay 5$ for table usage but not 5$ on product markup? I declare shenanigans on your attitude that you actually would be ok with a pay to play model.

You are basically using "services" without contributing to them and acting like you are entitled to those services that are supported by other people. Exactly the attitude of your fictional (and somewhat bigoted) caricature of the people you claim to support with your taxes.

Essentially the other people who 'pay where they pay' are taxpayers and you are the welfare queen getting a free place to game without contributing to society or paying taxes.

For me, it depends on my mood. If it is a huge order and I'm able to buy it online for a huge discount I will. Likewise, if I dont feel like waiting and can buy it local for a smaller discount, I'll do it that way as well. If it just a small item and I'm buy it full price local, it might be cheaper and easier than buying online with the shipping cost added in....So many variables.
In general. I've found that local stores that offer a discount stay in business longer and actually make MORE money than one that sells at full price because they sell more volume. If more followed that example, we wouldnt even be having this discussion. lol

I support my FLGS whenever and however I can, even if that means spending a little extra money.

Do I sometimes buy stuff online? I sure do because it's hard not to, especially with Amazon Prime or if I need something he doesn't stock. He has a large, clean, well run, and well stocked store; easily one of the nicest shops I've been to, if not the nicest. He gets to know his customers, he's involved in the local gaming groups, and it's always free to play in his store. Hell, he didn't even charge for the X-wing store championship last weekend, and we had 29 people playing! That means he ate the cost of the tournament kit and chose not to recoup that money and then some (I've read elsewhere that stores have been charging up to $20 to play in the championships). The other day he was handing out 10% off coupons to our X-wing group just because they came in to play some casual games.

The main reason I support him is because those are my principles: as a local small business owner, he's part of the same community I am and I want him to be successful. He takes care of the gamers and hobbyists in the area and I'm compelled to return the favor.

I just think it's the right thing to do.

I'd have to say it really depends on what I'm buying. There are some things I need to buy, but I can't seem to find online. So I go to my local store to have them order it for me, and eat the price difference. They do offer a 20% discount on models, so it's helpful. But with 8% tax, it sort of helps.

It's boiled down to saving money. I hate to cut from the stores profits, but I don't make a boatload of money, so I need to save where I can. Granted, I buy mostly anything EXCEPT models from them. I play a lot of the revamped Dragon Ball Z card game, so I buy all my packs from them. I also buy various board games and the like. But when it comes to plastic crack, Ebay is really the only place I'll buy.

There aren't many places in my area to play, and of them, the more well stocked one only gives a 5% discount on GW items, which gets above RSVP with tax. They even charge $4 per Vallejo paint dropper.

They make most of their money on MTG, so much of their miniature stock doesn't move.

I have no desire to buy through them if I can get it cheaper from GW direct

I always support my local store, but I don't do big purchases and never really have. my purchases are generally in the $50-$100au range, and the two stores I go to already do 10%-15% off. When you consider I'm also not paying shipping, I generally come out even.

But then, I'm also not buying from the usual suspects for gouging customers - the stuff I buy is generally pretty spot on for exchange rate prices. If I was buying GW stuff I'd probably go to mostly online.

Every time we have this discussion, there is a disconnect between the people who use the store to game and those that don't. I live in an area where the game stores are spread out and the people I play with are generally an hour's drive away. I buy from the FLGS, because if I want to have a place to play with buddies that's relatively convenient for both of us, then I need to put some money in the owner's pocket. If I had no use for open gaming tables, then I could shop online conscience-free.

If you use the store's tables, then shop there more often than not. If you don't, shop anywhere you like. Simple.

Also, America doesn't have sales tax baked-in to the price like the UK/Eurozone because our sales tax is decided upon by the local or state government. But don't worry, our federal government LOVES the idea of VAT, so I would imagine they'll figure out away to slip it by us in some new law in the near future...