I'm still slightly skeptical, but I can't see a lot wrong with the pic in first glance to suggest it is faked.
Natfka wrote:My FLGS had a copy of the Imperial Knights WD drop in from the warp. Had the stats for the Knight Paladin and Knight Errant inside.
(Superheavy walkers, not MCs, which is kind of a relief considering I've had enough MCs for a fething lifetime. Yes, this means they get Stomp, Hammer of Wrath, and all that bull.)
Paladin: 375 cost, Errant is 370. Both are AV13 front armor and 6 HP, with a 4+ invul on one facing that you choose during opponent's Shooting (but not CC or overwatch). WS, BS and I4, A3 with a strength D chainsword. Paladin is armed with a 2-shot battle cannon, and Errant has a S9 36" large blast melta. Hilariously, the Errant has a single heavy stubber, while the Paladin has 2(!!).
So, the LGS owner did a crazy thing and proxied 5 of them using Riptides against a CSM player. Promptly proceeded to murder all 9 deep-striking oblits, all the cultists, and the suicide terminator squad (Let it be said, the ability to position the deflector shield *after* movement is finished is pretty damn powerful...). Only lost because of the Chaos Spawn and HQ hid on the second level of a ruin, and the 2 Heldrakes having ridiculously good luck on their Vector Strike rolls."
BOLS wrote:Knight Kit
- Wraithknight sized (bulkier)
- Slightly hunched Imperial appearance
- Head in chest
- Arm weapons mounted underslung from shoulders like the Reaver
- Comes with multiple arm weapons (you can mount 2)
a) Multi-barreled “gatling” styled weapon
b) “Grav” styled weapon
c) “Nova-cannon” styled weapon
d) Giant close combat weapon
- Optional quad-missile array
- Void Shield
- Many accessories, flags, Aquilas, Mechanicus cogs, minor defensive weapons etc…
- Priced as Lord of Skulls
Kroothawk wrote: Unknown source, Natfka attributed it to DietOfLiquor on Bols Lounge, but nothing in the link he provides. Sounds like WD text:
The Imperial Knights Companion is a spectacular, large-format tome that delves deep into the orgins and history of the Imperial Knights, the culture of their noble houses and their complex relationships with the Imperium and the Adeptus Mechanicus.
But DietOfLiquor provides this pic:
Horncastle on Bols Lounge wrote:I got the new White Dwarf yesterday (I love my FLGS) Knights of the Imperium is a novella. The companion guide is extended fluff and heraldry, etc.
WDW summary for week 2, thanks to Slayer Le Boucher
Codex Imperial Knights Limited Edition (Direct Only) (£70)
As Above, with a Slipcase and Seven Full Colour Prints of Elevations of Famous imperial Knights.
Imperial Knights Companion (Direct Only) (£45)
Seven Major Knightly Households (Terryn, Hawkshroud, Griffith, Cadmus, Krast, Raven and Taranis - along with seven famous freeblades are discribed in detail.
-> History
-> Story
-> Elevation Images
-> Heraldry
Knights of the Imperium (Games Workshop Stores Only)(£15)
-> 126 Pages
-> Hardback
-> By Graham McNeal
-> Story of House Cadmus splliting from the Mechanicum to join imperium.
Digital Editions:
Codex Imperial Knights
Alter of War Imperial Knights
Jervis Johnson
Jervis likes digital editions because they let him release books that the beancounters wouldent let go to a minimum print run. Like War hammer Campaign books.
Houses and Heraldry
Four page article about how important Heradry is to imperial knights. Confirms there is a different plastic bit for Imperium, Mechanicum and Freeblade knights. Also, interestingly Imperial Knights have space for there "personal Heraldry" and Mechanicum knights do not, which is why the mechanicum knights have symertrical colour schemes across the shoulders and imperial knights don't. General impression is imperial knights are more into Heraldry and bluebloodedness, and mechanicum allighned houses are a bit more down to earth and buissness like.
Creating your own Freeblade
You can make your own Freeblade or indeed House of Knights. The White Dwarf Team have done so, and some of the paint schemes are quite epic.
Hold the Line
Battle report in the modern narrative style. Dark Angles with 5 Knights vs Chaos with 2 Lords of Skulls. Knights win.
Knightly Duels
An Interesting little game played with a knight paladin, a knight errant and a pack of playing cards.
Paint Splatter
This looks at the Green Freeblade (Gerantius)
Applying Transfares
Two pages of advice on getting the best out of Decals.
This Week in White Dwarf
->Small interview with Jervis about codex Knights.
Your Warlord gets some baked in stat bonuses, other knights may roll on a random table.
-> Small interview with Graham McNeal about the Novel.
His upcoming HH Novel Vengefull Spirit will Contain knights.
Well, my interest just went from 0 to 60 really fast. That looks to be a pretty nice model. I agree, it doesn't scream fake. If it is, it's a good fake.
To my entirely untrained eye, the flash flare doesn't seem to affect the coloring of the K and N. That could just be because glossy white and plain white might not look that different, but it's something odd that the lettering appears very consistent. On the other hand, the components don't look like rehashes of other kits that would point to it being a gussied up conversion so it remains plausible.
If it is a real model, it needs more Skullz; how can a proper 40k model not have eleventy billion of them on display?
It is supposed to be a book cover I think, not a model (although I'm sure the art will resemble a model)
I've got my codex Space Marines to hand, and can confirm the lettering is matt, even where it runs through the glossed areas of the cover, so that would be consistent at least, but that would also mean a physical book to accompany release?
Book cover eh? Possible new faction for 40k then? If you could build 5-6 different knights with the kit and at 1500pts you only need4-5 of them it could work?, I just hope that if it's legit you can use them in heresy armies too.
azreal13 wrote: I've got my codex Space Marines to hand, and can confirm the lettering is matt, even where it runs through the glossed areas of the cover, so that would be consistent at least, but that would also mean a physical book to accompany release?
That would make sense, since one would imagine that it'd be available to all Imperial armies. It'd work better that way than it has with some of their other kits that they've released out-of-cycle with the Codex updates where armies who were just released couldn't make use of it until their next update.
Also let's them put in the rules for 4-6 variants that share a largely similar kit but with different heads/weapons (a la Dreamforge's Leviathans, who will be my Grey Knights...um...Knight). Toss in fluff, a bit of artwork, some painting/assembly guides, obligatory hard cover then slap a $50 price tag on it with a Knight costing $120 and sit back and wait for the money.
It SOUNDS like a GW plan, and not a particularly awful one aside from the near-inevitable pricing.
It isn't a White Dwarf cover, at lease it isn't one yet, look at all the text that you'd see on a current WWD compared to the image. It might be a WIP cover, but it isn't a leaked, finished issue.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
reds8n wrote: The other thread relating tot his is a bit long and unwieldy, we'll use this one from now on.
relevant info and be C & Ped into this one.
Maybe throw a link into the 1st post.
Good spot/find.
I'll happily link across, of anyone can remember which unrelated thread the info was in? Was it the Guard thread or one of the others?
Honestly, big walkers just don't appeal to me very much. They don't fit the theme of any army I currently use, and while I'd welcome a proper "Adeptus Mechanicus" army, where these would doubtlessly have a place, big walkers because big walkers in an icnreasingly unweildy game system? No thank you.
Though from an artistic/design standpoint, I'm cautiously optimistic they'll release a cool looking model, though likely well out of my price range.
The WD we're comparing it to doesn't have any text occluding the image of the model, though. It's a smaller model, so they can get some text on there. Compare it to this cover with a big flyer on it (admittedly the old format WD)
Spoiler:
Still not a huge stretch for it to be a WD cover, imo. Definitely think some kind of Knights codex is pretty unlikely. They want to sell this kit to all the existing imperial players, not add a barrier in the form of a book they also need to get.
Maybe it's a next month... back page. They used to do those back in t'day.
Dreamforge sell their models like candy, have all the options that imperial knights have.
A quick ( probally bodged ) explanation why they excist and presto garanteed income for the next couple of months
Well, unless anyone can localize the image used here, I'm guessing it's real. Not many people illustrate a very specific looking pseudo titan just to troll.
I'm kinda hard in places at the thought of a real plastic Knight. I'm also kinda soft in places at the thought of what my girlfiend and wallet will say. It's all very Schrodindger.
I'm sure they can be used with HH armies too - considering entire knight squadrons and their pilots are major characters of the novel Mechanicum - If that is what we are getting - I am happy
Armorum Ferrum wrote: I'm sure they can be used with HH armies too - considering entire knight squadrons and their pilots are major characters of the novel Mechanicum - If that is what we are getting - I am happy
I have no doubt if GW comes out with this, the way it's rumored, FW will be doing add-ons to make other variants and probably some of the other completely different ones.
Would love to get one of these bad boys if the price isnt like the throne of skulls thing which sadly probably will be. Still, you can take your skull machines, wraith pansies, stompa soon to be stomped, old fogey necron god box's and shove em up ya The Imperium just put their purge mode into super mega overdrive.
I like it, so hope it isn't fake. Will be interested to see whether there are variant options/pieces, and how they compare with the Epic fluff. Although this would come while I am (slowly, finally) painting my kitbashed Knight I built five years ago! Guess it means I will have at least one week before it's out...
BrookM wrote: Hopefully (sounds stupid I know) it will be around the same price as the Wraithknight.
If it's as bulky as the Riptide, and as tall as the Wraithknight, expect a fair price jump over both.
I've not seen the sprues that either come on, though. Limited options might keep the price down, but I doubt it.
I'm gonna guess that this rolls in at north of £100, going on the Khornemower and GW's habit of sneaking in a price jump where it can... I reckon £115.
Now, if the artwork itself represents the actual model, it doesn't look quite like the angular "mini-warhound" I was expecting, but instead it's a nice throwback to the old Adeptus Titanicus era of rounded carapaces and shoulderpads. Me like.
Kirasu wrote: I hope the cover says in big bold letters.. "KNIGHTS ARE NOT TITANS" so that we can kill that discussion before it starts.. once again.
You hope, but along with the concept of the Chaos Gods getting along and the entire allies chart, how many more of these are they going to be able to sell when GW can proclaim (not advertise, they don't advertise) "GW's -FIRST- plastic titan for 40K!"
tomjoad wrote: If this costs more than a wraith knight, I expect Dreamforge will wet themselves with excitement about all the sales GW will be giving away to them.
What? They're already taking 100% of sort-of-Knight sales. There's nothing more GW can give away and quite a lot they can take away.
tomjoad wrote: If this costs more than a wraith knight, I expect Dreamforge will wet themselves with excitement about all the sales GW will be giving away to them.
What? They're already taking 100% of sort-of-Knight sales. There's nothing more GW can give away and quite a lot they can take away.
GW are giving them official rules to use at last... no more homebrew rules to go with the third-party models.
tomjoad wrote: If this costs more than a wraith knight, I expect Dreamforge will wet themselves with excitement about all the sales GW will be giving away to them.
What? They're already taking 100% of sort-of-Knight sales. There's nothing more GW can give away and quite a lot they can take away.
With official rules there's a lot more demand for sort-of-Knight models.
Ok, this is the gaming best news I've had in a long time... I now have a legitimate excuse to buy a Dreamforge Levi.
My hope will probably be in vain, but I'm holding out for at least a couple of Ad Mech bits (not with this release, but maybe further down the line if this release sells well)... A man can dream.
I just got a vain, but MAYBE valid thought: Considering the Riptide is very tough and can put lot lots of AP2 wherever it wants, does this Knight pack have the potential to do the same, and thereby undoing Tau's permanent grip on the super-competitive tier? It would make business sense considering that imperial armies aren't very competitive and this could make them so, causing them to sell like hot cakes.
Possible perks? AV13 walker or T6 MC with 2+ 5++? Fluff says they come with either big battlecannons (maybe baneblade size), the Thermal Cannon (listed as a Melta Weapon), and one has a gattling style autocannon with big CCWs.
The knight, fluff wise, would come up to about the knee of a reaver titan. so this game wise if done correctly would be between the size of wriathknight and a ripetide. For more fluff info just read HH book Mechanicum
tomjoad wrote: If this costs more than a wraith knight, I expect Dreamforge will wet themselves with excitement about all the sales GW will be giving away to them.
What? They're already taking 100% of sort-of-Knight sales. There's nothing more GW can give away and quite a lot they can take away.
With official rules there's a lot more demand for sort-of-Knight models.
And? To give away a sale you have to have a sale to begin with. GW can only gain sales by releasing a Knight after Dreamforge.
You could maybe argue that they'll sell less than they would otherwise do, but Dreamforge is essentially an indie company, their sales won't put a noticeable dent in whatever GW targets are. If anything, GW pricing policies will.
Took the liberty to rehost this image because the original is hosted on Photobucket, which has an annoying tendency to reach its bandwidth limit very quickly and become a broken image:
It looks to me like artwork of a Knight set against actual GW terrain, but the image is small and some detail is hard to make out. If it is artwork, it's art I haven't seen before.
The model stands 7.5" tall. Original rumour oct/nov 2013 said Knight Paladin
Between riptide and Wraithknight height.
Vanquisher cannon and Uber-chainsword Can upgrade these to a Punisher Cannon and an Uber-Fist with Inferno Flamers.
tomjoad wrote: If this costs more than a wraith knight, I expect Dreamforge will wet themselves with excitement about all the sales GW will be giving away to them.
What? They're already taking 100% of sort-of-Knight sales. There's nothing more GW can give away and quite a lot they can take away.
With official rules there's a lot more demand for sort-of-Knight models.
And? To give away a sale you have to have a sale to begin with. GW can only gain sales by releasing a Knight after Dreamforge.
You could maybe argue that they'll sell less than they would otherwise do, but Dreamforge is essentially an indie company, their sales won't put a noticeable dent in whatever GW targets are. If anything, GW pricing policies will.
I think the argument can be made that Dreamforge might see more sales now that their are official rules for a similar-scale model (as opposed to making the argument that Dreamforge will *start* stealing *more* sales of a thing which previously didn't exist).
I've had my eye on the Dreamforge stuff, but didn't have any use for them... now they might get some of my money. The only way I'd buy the GW one is if it's significantly cheaper.
So the Dreamforge Leviathans and Mortis can be hunched over to be about 8 inches tall, mine stands at around 9 inches... it'll be good enough, especially since I have the full suite of dakka to go with it.
If they do price it at Khornemower prices... ouch. I know the Dreamforge kits don't have grimdark bits, but are skulls really worth an extra 50$? They'll sell, don't get me wrong. Not a lot of brick and mortar stores carry Dreamforge and buying online is still putting a lot of parents off.
Depending on the price point GW comes out at, dreamforge could and should see a sales bump. I'm assuming of course that GW will come in at a price higher then dreamforge
Brother SRM wrote: It looks to me like artwork of a Knight set against actual GW terrain, but the image is small and some detail is hard to make out. If it is artwork, it's art I haven't seen before.
I'm going to laugh so much if this is for a Black Library book called Imperial Knights and they just release more Dwarves that week instead.
pretre wrote: Yeah, the 'original' rumor was the least likely. You'll want to dig for the 40k radio ones.
40k radio repeated same info... anyways, pic shows inferno .....helps validate rumors....
When?
40kradio
Spoiler:
Knight Rumors - Jan 2014
As you may have seen on other sites Febraury is all about the Dwarfs. So for you fans of the short and bearded get pumped. March will see the release of Imperial Knights. This year is shaping up to be a good one. PENDING We believe it will be release through the new WD format. The week of the Release, you will get the rules in the WD. PENDING they said it was for ALL imperial armies. PENDING
Natfka:
Spoiler:
Mechanicus Rumors - April 2013
Mechanicus:
starting late 2014 early 2015. PENDING "Pre-releases" starting early 2014 with finecast Servitors, PENDING plastic Turrets, PENDING LR Medusa, used already by other armies. PENDING White Dwarf historical propaganda on Mars, titan variants etc. PENDING Starting release based on only two huge plastic kits, around 55GBP each:
- Knight "Titan" (standard paladin, scout lancer + variants, many weapons). PENDING - Knight "Lord" (very heavy crusader, support +, character baron blink). PENDING Each Knighthold can have 3-4 knights at 1250 pts. PENDING Depending on sales and demand, more smaller Ad Mech will be released starting middle 2016. PENDING
Larry Vela
Spoiler:
[spoiler]
Knight Loadout - Feb 2014
via Larry Vela over on bols ***
Knight Kit
- Wraithknight sized (bulkier) PENDING - Slightly hunched Imperial appearance PENDING - Head in chest PENDING - Arm weapons mounted underslung from shoulders like the Reaver PENDING - Comes with multiple arm weapons (you can mount 2) PENDING a) Multi-barreled "gatling" styled weapon PENDING b) "Grav" styled weapon PENDING c) "Nova-cannon" styled weapon PENDING d) Giant close combat weapon PENDING
- Optional quad-missile array PENDING - Void Shield PENDING - Many accessories, flags, Aquilas, Mechanicus cogs, minor defensive weapons etc... PENDING - Priced as Lord of Skulls PENDING
We rate this set as medium-low reliability coming from a mix of known and unknown sources.
There has been talk of a plastic Knight somewhere in the GW design schedule for many months now. If you recall it was hyped to be the "big kit" to accompany the Space Marine, then IG release, but current rumor-chatter places it as the key release in March as a standalone kit that can be fielded via dataslate with a variety of armies. PENDING
Release Schedule - Jan 2014
January - Tyranids (Out) ALREADY TRUE February - Dwarfs (Sighted in the weekly White Dwarf cover) ALREADY TRUE March - Imperial Knights (Supported with White Dwarf and Dataslate rules support) PENDING April - Imperial Guard (said to be renamed a la the Sister codex to Astra Militarum) PENDING May - Wood Elves PENDING June / July - Orks, Warhammer 40,000 "not 7th" book PENDING July / August - Warhammer Fantasy 9th (book, or boxed set - unknown details) PENDING September - Warhammer 40,000 "not 7th" (Boxed Set) PENDING October - Blood Angels PENDING November - WFB Army (Bretonnia getting the most chatter) PENDING December - Hobbit - Holiday Bundles PENDING
The Possible stuff:
IG Regiment Doctrines: Each Regiment (Cadian, Catachan, etc...)has doctrines, similar to SM Chapter tactics. Examples listed were: PENDING Cadians - may issue 2 orders to a unit PENDING Catachans - Move-thru-cover, and Jungle Fighter (???) PENDING
Thunderbolt flyer: Very heavy armor, but cannot jink. PENDING
The Salt-mine
Imperial Robots - 2 new robots, requiring an Admech handler/enginseer. PENDING
Knight Paladin - Taller than riptide, not as tall as Wraithknight. Vanquisher cannon and Uber-chainsword are standard load out. May upgrade to Punisher Cannon, Uber-Fist with Inferno Flamers PENDING
Lion275
Spoiler:
IG / Knights / WE - Jan 2014
via Lion 275 on Warseer
IG will be in April. March will focus soley on the Imperial Knights. Followed by Wood Elves in May... PENDING
It sounds like Imperial Knights will be a Dataslate or a mini codex. I bet you see it in the WD then have it come out in Dataslate/mini dex. From what we were told it will not be in the IG codex and will be able to ally with various armies. PENDING
IG is getting a new name with their new codex a la SoB. According to 40K Radio's source, they'll be renamed to the Astra Militarium. PENDING
Yup a brand new name. The book is called Astra Militarium. PENDING
I am just going by what our source has told us. Could be a legal issue, could be they are incorporating more things into the Codex. Time will tell. PENDING
And I want to re-iterate Knight ARE NOT part of Astra Militarium (IG). PENDING
StrykerSniper
Spoiler:
Inq Rumors - Nov 2013
New Veteran/Stormtrooper boxed set PENDING Kasrkin style armor PENDING Hellguns, sniper rifles, specials, missle laucher, bolters, shotguns PENDING Respirator heads, berets, bald, mohawks PENDING Inquisitor with long cloak and armor PENDING
There was a Knight Paladin that is taller than riptide, but not as tall as the Wraithknight. It seemed top have a vanquisher cannon and an Uber-chainsword, which are a standard load out I am told. You may upgrade it to a punisher Cannon and/or also swap the chainsword out for an Uber-Fist with Inferno Flamers. PENDING
GW would have to be real true idiots not to do this. Dream Forge sales are probably supplanting FW Warhound sales to a small degree.And Dreamforge are making money hand over fist.
But I guarantee you that a Knight kit from GW still won't measure up to the quality of the Leviathans.
SickSix wrote: GW would have to be real true idiots not to do this. Dream Forge sales are probably supplanting FW Warhound sales to a small degree.And Dreamforge are making money hand over fist.
But I guarantee you that a Knight kit from GW still won't measure up to the quality of the Leviathans.
ace101 wrote: I just got a vain, but MAYBE valid thought: Considering the Riptide is very tough and can put lot lots of AP2 wherever it wants, does this Knight pack have the potential to do the same, and thereby undoing Tau's permanent grip on the super-competitive tier? It would make business sense considering that imperial armies aren't very competitive and this could make them so, causing them to sell like hot cakes.
Possible perks? AV13 walker or T6 MC with 2+ 5++?
Fluff says they come with either big battlecannons (maybe baneblade size), the Thermal Cannon (listed as a Melta Weapon), and one has a gattling style autocannon with big CCWs.
I'm just speculating that's all.
I'd expect it to have slightly better CC chops than either the WK or RT, a ++ save of some sort, and it really needs to be a MC in order to tackle the two other dominant walker-MCs, if they give it an AV value, every Nid, Daemon, Eldar and Tau army will be able to eat it for breakfast, actually, given walkers general performance in 6th, every army should be able to dismantle it at leisure.
Which means we should be expecting an AV12 walker with 2A, S6 and no DCCW option!
That'd be interesting to see Orlando. I don't consider myself that great of a model assembler, and some GW kits have given me fits, but outside of not paying attention to the directions the Leviathan went together pretty easily.
I've not fiddled with any of GW's later "big" kits for comparison though. Should really assemble my Riptide...
OrlandotheTechnicoloured wrote: He probably means the build detail and poseability of the legs/arms of the Leviathan thanks to the 'pistons' and friction screws
I'd agree that while the GW kit will be good it probably won't have that degree of finesse (but will be an easier build for it.
It will, of course actually be a Knight and a lot of people will drawn to it simply because of that
I'm finding myself increasingly enjoying building and painting larger kits/models, hence my love of all things Mierce, I'm working my way through the FWGDs, plus I love doing tanks etc.. If I didn't run an a compatible army, I'd be all over this, but as one of my two factions is imperial! I'm double interested.
I can't see it being cheaper than the dreamforge kit, more skulls and weapon options are a given.
IF it's true and IF I don't suddenly get the urge to make one ... I'd have to see it for real first. Given many of their past outings so far I'm far from impressed with the current GW design team.
Well it was their last 40K podcast it was mentioned in, the January one. I thought this was where it all started from, the facebook posts they made were just following the piece they did on the podcast.
I download it from itunes but i suppose their site has them too.
Well it was their last 40K podcast it was mentioned in, the January one. I thought this was where it all started from, the facebook posts they made were just following the piece they did on the podcast.
I download it from itunes but i suppose their site has them too.
And it looks like bu11etmagn3tt cleared it up. Nevermind!
ace101 wrote: I'd expect it to have slightly better CC chops than either the WK or RT, a ++ save of some sort, and it really needs to be a MC in order to tackle the two other dominant walker-MCs, if they give it an AV value, every Nid, Daemon, Eldar and Tau army will be able to eat it for breakfast, actually, given walkers general performance in 6th, every army should be able to dismantle it at leisure.
Which means we should be expecting an AV12 walker with 2A, S6 and no DCCW option!
This is my worry, I'm waiting for the rules before I think of buying any, particularly as I want four to go with my Chaos Titans and a few for my Imperial Armies.
That will put them just a smidge over the current cost of a Wraithknight, but still well below the price of a Lord of Skulls as some have been shouting.
Honestly, at $120 (minus whatever discounts my local retailers offer), I might prefer the real GW model to the Dreamforge guy. I guess I'll have to be patient for once in my life to see how big exactly it is and how good it looks.
This is all assuming it's a walker or MC. If it's a super-heavy, I'll skip it entirely. The Baneblade kit owns my heart, and I'm gonna buy one, even though I have zero use for super-heavies to begin with.
The wraith Knight in that comparison pic is posed dynamically leaning forward. Id say the full size Leviathan will be spot on in scale. For probably equal or less cost.
And any claiming gw will have more 'detail'...own up and admit that you mean oversized rivets and skulls.
The Leviathan is an amazing kit and I've only done my 15 mm one.
Its practically an action figure kit it's so poseable.
Won't believe this til I see it on something GW for myself.
I don't think anybody's mentioned there's an "S" on the end (as in multiples), so its clearly not a model box shot, and it doesn't have enough add'l text for a WD or Visions cover.
If it is real, my money is on the rules showing up in the next warzone book GW releases - like the Reaver rules in the Armageddon section of Apocalypse.
SickSix wrote: The casting, the pose-ability. Everything really. Sure the GW kit will have more 'detail' but it won't measure up.
Do you have a Leviathan? I think anyone that does will know what I'm talking about.
I guess my experience was different. Maybe I should put this in a different thread but I was moderately frustrated with my Leviathan (except I love how awesome it looks).
I have 2 15mm Leviathan Crusaders and I've only built one so far because of how "involved" it was over and above a normal GW kit. I use it as a stand-in dreadknight and the poseability is meaningless to me for a model that will be glued to a base. Also, while none of the pieces were "warped" or anything (not that I've ever gotten a warped GW kit either I guess), the vents for the parts on the runners were at very odd places and resulted in a lot of awkward cuts and filing/shaving to have a decent fit. The pistons and attach-points in several areas required quite alot of forethought to get to fit correctly (like the two connecting the upper and lower torso), while some pieces (like the instep/ankle guard over the feet) didn't fit at all without some modification.
I could go into a little more detail, but maybe this isn't the proper place for it after all, but I didn't really see anything that would make me buy it over a GW fig of the same type except for being a little bit cheaper. Basically, for my purposes, the extra assembly for limited "poseability" and moveable parts could have been more easily handled with larger assembly pieces/castings and it wouldn't have changed the nature of the kit at all for me. And, when all was said and done, the actual poseability that I got out of the model was far less than I would have expected from all the little bits and pistons I put together, and far less than any recent Bandai Gundam kit I've assembled.
So I do think the Leviathan's are nice models, they certainly don't strike me as being "better" than anything anybody else is offering unless you just happen to really like the design. For my purposes, replacing the awful baby-carrier Nemesis Dreadknight, they worked well enough but halfway through the build of the first one I was wishing I just had a GW dreadknight!
This image first appeared on Facebook within the last 24 hours & also from a retailer's page taking pre-orders and saying it will be unveiled in the next White Dwarf Weekly. Also that Imperial Knights are in warehouses and ready to roll.
The retailer goes on to say -
The Knight Kit is...
- Wraithknight sized (bulkier)
- Slightly hunched Imperial appearance
- Head in chest
- Arm weapons mounted underslung from shoulders like the Reaver
- Comes with multiple arm weapons (you can mount 2)
a) Multi-barreled "gatling" styled weapon
b) "Grav" styled weapon
c) "Nova-cannon" styled weapon
d) Giant close combat weapon
- Optional quad-missile array
- Void Shield
- Many accessories, flags, Aquilas, Mechanicus cogs, minor defensive weapons etc...
- Priced as Lord of Skulls
Well having a void shield will make it fairly ugly to face in game so don't expect it to be allowed in any tournament environments that aren't also letting in escalation/stronghold/Lords of War
This may be the first GW model in over a year to tempt me, looks sexy and classic (rounded)... may even make a cool epic scale warlord by the look of it!
It looks beautiful :O i might buy it and build it for the deathwing side of my greenwing army because that, bubble wrapped by deathwing knights would be awesome, even if stupidly pricey in points (and £££ may i say) it would be rude not to
It looks great to me, will be after at least one for my Guard, but as I have two Stompas (one still in the box, so looting possibilities ahoy) I might well end up with two.
so I'm assuming that the $120 price point is likely the hobby shop price after the non buying from GW discount is applied. So could in theory add on 20 to 30% to get the actual price of the model?
Otto Cargill wrote: Hey guys! Guess what we just got reliably confirmed is coming in March? We can't name it (thank you street dates lol) but we are taking reserves on it and it'll be officially announced in White Dwarf in the coming weeks!
Reserves are now open, expected price is approx $120!
Otto Cargill wrote: from what I understand, this is strictly the imperial / mechanicus kit but it will be previewed in an upcoming white dwarf. i'm sure there will be a chaos version of it (dark mechanicum) but i have no verification
$120 is a nice price point, wonder if non gw stores will be able to discount it. If its a sexy kit I can justify one or two, toss in an online discount and I might be looking at a squad or two
Slayer le boucher wrote: Still nothing that tells us if they will also be fieldable by CSM armies?
Yup i guessed so, "a Nice Walker for Chaos?.... Ahahahaha oh you poor wretched souls..."
I expect a Forgeworld conversion kit following shortly after.
With luck you will get chaos conversion sprue in plastic, but they need one for the 'Russ first.
I have to say, as much as I love my Leviathan I'd jump on this so fast your head would spin. GW kits tend to go togther fast and well and it'll come with all the right options. The fullsized leviathan, once you add any weapons to it, climbs quick. Granted, i'm already using my Leviathan as a count-as Warhound on a slightly raised base to ensure he's 10.5" tall.
If this is around 6-7" I wouldn't have a good proxey anyway. Seems like the perfect size to release at a solid price point for it since if it is 6"-7" the Dreamforge stuff won't work to well.
The rounded plastic shoulder areas give me hope that they could do a Mars Pattern Warhound in plastic someday, and not the silly boxy Lucius Pattern one!
Alpharius wrote: The rounded plastic shoulder areas give me hope that they could do a Mars Pattern Warhound in plastic someday, and not the silly boxy Lucius Pattern one!
Yea, they'll add it to the "To-Do" list right after that Plastic Thunderhawk...
Alpharius wrote: The rounded plastic shoulder areas give me hope that they could do a Mars Pattern Warhound in plastic someday, and not the silly boxy Lucius Pattern one!
I like the lucius pattren... I was hopeing kits(plural) implied we might get a lucius pattren kit also or forgeworld puts out some converstion kits.
Agent_Tremolo wrote: Now, if the artwork itself represents the actual model, it doesn't look quite like the angular "mini-warhound" I was expecting, but instead it's a nice throwback to the old Adeptus Titanicus era of rounded carapaces and shoulderpads. Me like.
Seems to take a lot of design cues from the FW Mars-pattern titans, which is a good thing to my mind, far prefer them to the Lucius-pattern.
Now, assuming the pic is real, and assuming the rumours are correct...I'm not sure. If it's as big as has been suggested, it'll be waaaay out of scale - the description in Mechanicum has Knights standing at around 9 metres tall, so depending what assumptions you make doing the conversion could be between 5" and 7"(the most rational conversion to my mind, and the one I use for scaling, is to assume that the height of an average human model[approx 32mm in modern GW/FW models] is the height of an average human[approx 6'] in which case it comes out a smidge over 5.5"), we should be talking more along the lines of the Dreadknight than the Khornemower. If they have scaled it up, and it is Khornemower priced, I'm not sure I could justify it to myself no matter how much I love them. Hell it would be a push to buy it at Wraithknight-after-discount price.
I am going to wait to see one or more assembled before I bite. I am sitting on two Leviathans, assembled and primed and waiting to be painted up as knights. Bashed by own cannons and chain swords, even. The Leviathans are so much more... imposing than the imperial tin can they have shown to-date.
Would have much preferred a design closer to the classic lead v.1 from the the Epic Space Marine days as opposed to the Titanicus plastic knights. tho.
Much more dynamic, less plodding, more aggressive and challenging. .
As long as there are weapon options to allow the classic paladin loadouts; earthshaker type cannon/chainsword or the multi melta /powerfist i will be somewhat happy.
But somehow I cant shake the feeling of disappointment.
It looks too much like a toy, not a model, which makes me wish it was designed, say, back when the Valkyrie was released.
That implies more then just the single knight kit?
That's the visions cover...
btw, stopped by GW and mentioned guard and this item coming out March/April and manager looked like a deer in headlights. Do GW managers play dumb or are out of the loop?
Im going to assume out for the most part, but in to a point (after all they need to know what to order and how much etc. So I think they are a last minute thing need to know basis situation.
That implies more then just the single knight kit?
That's the visions cover...
btw, stopped by GW and mentioned guard and this item coming out March/April and manager looked like a deer in headlights. Do GW managers play dumb or are out of the loop?
Im going to assume out for the most part, but in to a point (after all they need to know what to order and how much etc. So I think they are a last minute thing need to know basis situation.
They usely find out once the pre orders are publicly announced a week before release like everyone eals. I also believe they don't really place the order themselves. It's automated for the most part based on the past sales of each shop.
That's just what i've been able to put together from the bits I've gathered chatting to them. Their are probly thows in the know who could probably correct me, as long as it doesn't interfere with any non-disclosure agreements they have signed.
That picture looks more like computer generated art work (for a game for instance) than a physical model. Granted the picture quality is terrible but it just doesn't look right.
As someone who hates going second and having to remove multiple pie-plates worth of models within the first fifteen minutes of deploying them, I disagree with this new direction for the game.
I'm not sure. The image looks really empty for a WD cover or rather oddly photographed for a spread in a WD.It's certainly not a way GW usually photographs.
If they pull this model off... I can see them doing some more larger kits eventually.
Swastakowey wrote:I think this one is a fake personally, The artwork is very old and well it doesnt look very normal GWeey material.
I'd also like to see you cite where the art is from, as its new to me, and I've been kicking around since
Rogue Trader. Plus the font is a dead match for what GW's have been using recently, and the image is absolutely the sort of thing we've seen from GW before.
You're entitled to your opinion of course, but as I've said already, if it is a fake, it is a very well observed, very well executed one.
That implies more then just the single knight kit?
That's the visions cover...
btw, stopped by GW and mentioned guard and this item coming out March/April and manager looked like a deer in headlights. Do GW managers play dumb or are out of the loop?
Im going to assume out for the most part, but in to a point (after all they need to know what to order and how much etc. So I think they are a last minute thing need to know basis situation.
They get sent stock, they don't order it, they don't need to know until their delivery turns up on a Thursday or Friday. As I've said before, 'manager' for the job a GW staffer performs in the shop is a bit of a misnomer.
There is the only evidence I can find on short notice, but as im no expert I just agree with whoever wrote what is in the link.
Ish, except the background looks new ish. but the background looks like a photo while the moddel looks like art... weird I think
Yeah...
That's possible, as I missed the Epic 40K era, but it definitely isn't from Space Marine or Adeptus Titanicus era, the artwork was very different back then.
There is the only evidence I can find on short notice, but as im no expert I just agree with whoever wrote what is in the link.
Ish, except the background looks new ish. but the background looks like a photo while the moddel looks like art... weird I think
That blogger is either slowed or outright lying. This isn't art from 25 years ago, as anyone who has seen any from back then would know. Cities of Death terrain in the background isn't doing him any favours either.
It's a nice rumour, more big stuff to further crush regular troops into irrelevance!
On the plus side no matter how high GW, in their infinite wisdom all praises are to them, decides to price the thing in the land of the Rising Sun we have oodles of big robots of all sizes and prices so it's a win for us
There is the only evidence I can find on short notice, but as im no expert I just agree with whoever wrote what is in the link.
Ish, except the background looks new ish. but the background looks like a photo while the moddel looks like art... weird I think
That blogger is either slowed or outright lying. This isn't art from 25 years ago, as anyone who has seen any from back then would know. Cities of Death terrain in the background isn't doing him any favours either.
Yea i mentioned the background. But im still not convinced as it doesnt at all look like the GW art I have been seeing lately. And in my opinion the background is just zoomed in terrain.
Two iconic pieces of Knight art I remember from the time, notice the style is utterly different to anything in this piece.
Also consider that much of the interior of GW books up until very recently was black and white. Given that a full colour piece like this would have been therefore fairly unusual, I'm sure at least one of the posters in this thread would recall it.
Does anyone else think the background is a photo though? Its a spitting image of the terrain, but the image is too small to really get a good look at it.
Swastakowey wrote: Does anyone else think the background is a photo though? Its a spitting image of the terrain, but the image is too small to really get a good look at it.
Taking a photo of models and "arting it up" is a technique GW (amongst others) are known to use though, so it could very well be a processed Citadel terrain kit.
Swastakowey wrote: Does anyone else think the background is a photo though? Its a spitting image of the terrain, but the image is too small to really get a good look at it.
Taking a photo of models and "arting it up" is a technique GW (amongst others) are known to use though, so it could very well be a processed Citadel terrain kit.
I have seen them add bits (like gun fire or dust etc) via animation but I havent seen an art and model version yet. But I dont get into the books or anything so im not 100%
How would that invalidate anything? That would just mean that GW are displaying a brand new model in front of suitable terrain, which they've been doing for absolutely ages.
Goliath wrote: How would that invalidate anything? That would just mean that GW are displaying a brand new model in front of suitable terrain, which they've been doing for absolutely ages.
Because that brand new model is a drawing not a model.
Now im questioning myself because it also looks like a model... Or does it? haha
I was under the impression it was a drawing the whole time. But im not sure now.
Swastakowey wrote: Does anyone else think the background is a photo though? Its a spitting image of the terrain, but the image is too small to really get a good look at it.
Taking a photo of models and "arting it up" is a technique GW (amongst others) are known to use though, so it could very well be a processed Citadel terrain kit.
I have seen them add bits (like gun fire or dust etc) via animation but I havent seen an art and model version yet. But I dont get into the books or anything so im not 100%
A huge percentage of FW stuff is based around photos of models.
Swastakowey wrote: See my last post... I was just being slowed haha, I thought it was a drawing.
It is a painting!!
It is likely, if genuine, a page from WD, or possibly the cover of a supplement.
But the painting could very well be based on a photograph of a model, which is something GW are known to do frequently. If you have access to imperial Armour Apocalypse, there is a "painting" of a Chaos Reaver, with various other units arranged around it in the opening few pages. If you compare it to the photo of the painted model, there are many identical details, and if you look closely at the other figures in the image, you'll notice they're actually in recognisable poses from the miniatures.
So it is a painting of a model, based on a photo of the model.
If its real.
Not the example I was describing, but a good illustration.
Swastakowey wrote: See my last post... I was just being slowed haha, I thought it was a drawing.
It is a painting!!
It is likely, if genuine, a page from WD, or possibly the cover of a supplement.
But the painting could very well be based on a photograph of a model, which is something GW are known to do frequently. If you have access to imperial Armour Apocalypse, there is a "painting" of a Chaos Reaver, with various other units arranged around it in the opening few pages. If you compare it to the photo of the painted model, there are many identical details, and if you look closely at the other figures in the image, you'll notice they're actually in recognisable poses from the miniatures.
So it is a painting of a model, based on a photo of the model.
If its real.
I see, well yea I will keep my high doubts on this image being real in that case.
There is the only evidence I can find on short notice, but as im no expert I just agree with whoever wrote what is in the link.
Ish, except the background looks new ish. but the background looks like a photo while the moddel looks like art... weird I think
That blogger is either slowed or outright lying. This isn't art from 25 years ago, as anyone who has seen any from back then would know. Cities of Death terrain in the background isn't doing him any favours either.
Yea i mentioned the background. But im still not convinced as it doesnt at all look like the GW art I have been seeing lately. And in my opinion the background is just zoomed in terrain.
I can say with a very high level of confidence that this knight is not from any past GW publication. I still have the vast majority of it, and it doesnt match the past style at all, nor is it a converted or otherwise modified Epic figure that someone was trying to pass off as a 40K figure.
The color choices, markings and other indicators put it inline with art/painting from the last year or two from the GW studio as well. It definately looks as though an actual picture was touched up, adding details like parchment looking bits under the gun, or perhaps a 3D render which was then touched up in Photoshop. IIRC though, GW has started doing that in some of their propaganda art anyway, so that isnt a give away that it is fake at all.
Almost everything about the figure is different from Epic period knights. You can go back and take a look at them on sites like Stuff of Legends, and the way legs are built, weapons are designed and especially artistic styles are different from then to this image.
Swastakowey wrote: See my last post... I was just being slowed haha, I thought it was a drawing.
It is a painting!!
It is likely, if genuine, a page from WD, or possibly the cover of a supplement.
But the painting could very well be based on a photograph of a model, which is something GW are known to do frequently. If you have access to imperial Armour Apocalypse, there is a "painting" of a Chaos Reaver, with various other units arranged around it in the opening few pages. If you compare it to the photo of the painted model, there are many identical details, and if you look closely at the other figures in the image, you'll notice they're actually in recognisable poses from the miniatures.
So it is a painting of a model, based on a photo of the model.
If its real.
Not the example I was describing, but a good illustration.
Im fairly certain they used the model for the cover and animated the background and fog etc, like they used to do on the old boxes.
Swastakowey wrote: See my last post... I was just being slowed haha, I thought it was a drawing.
It is a painting!!
It is likely, if genuine, a page from WD, or possibly the cover of a supplement.
But the painting could very well be based on a photograph of a model, which is something GW are known to do frequently. If you have access to imperial Armour Apocalypse, there is a "painting" of a Chaos Reaver, with various other units arranged around it in the opening few pages. If you compare it to the photo of the painted model, there are many identical details, and if you look closely at the other figures in the image, you'll notice they're actually in recognisable poses from the miniatures.
So it is a painting of a model, based on a photo of the model.
If its real.
Not the example I was describing, but a good illustration.
Im fairly certain they used the model for the cover and animated the background and fog etc, like they used to do on the old boxes.
Yes, that's my point. Albeit they didn't 'animate' anything.
The other image I was describing is far less obviously a model until you compare it, but I wasn't able to find an online image to link to, this was just to try and outline what I was talking about - there are images kicking around that you'd never think were models unless you knew the paint job of the studio mini very well.
Swastakowey wrote: See my last post... I was just being slowed haha, I thought it was a drawing.
It is a painting!!
It is likely, if genuine, a page from WD, or possibly the cover of a supplement.
But the painting could very well be based on a photograph of a model, which is something GW are known to do frequently. If you have access to imperial Armour Apocalypse, there is a "painting" of a Chaos Reaver, with various other units arranged around it in the opening few pages. If you compare it to the photo of the painted model, there are many identical details, and if you look closely at the other figures in the image, you'll notice they're actually in recognisable poses from the miniatures.
So it is a painting of a model, based on a photo of the model.
If its real.
Not the example I was describing, but a good illustration.
Im fairly certain they used the model for the cover and animated the background and fog etc, like they used to do on the old boxes.
Yes, that's my point. Albeit they didn't 'animate' anything.
The other image I was describing is far less obviously a model until you compare it, but I wasn't able to find an online image to link to, this was just to try and outline what I was talking about - there are images kicking around that you'd never think were models unless you knew the paint job of the studio mini very well.
I'll come back to this thread and admit im wrong if im wrong but due to the artwork on top of photo im not convinced its the real deal. I know the difference between the art and the models (or maybe I have been so well fooled that I just think I know) but as mentioned, I think it fake. Art on top of photo doesnt seem right to me.
Really not sure how anyone is seeing that as anything other than a model. Okay it is a really poor pic, but you can clearly see that the gun barrel is painted plastic. Also pretty sure that building behind it was in White Dwarf a while back.. it was a side project by one of the Studio staff.
The angle, photo glare is confusing the issue, but I'd bet my Guard army that that is the model. I don't even think there is any effects at play here, its just an awful pic, like all the other leaked ones last year which then had perfectly clear shots turn up a week later.
Seriously, I had nagging doubts before, now I really am starting to think someone at GW is leaking these either to Troll us, or at some half borked attempt at marketing.
So I still have pretty much 0 interest in playing 40k and I really dislike some of the aesthetic choices, like this one, GW/FW have made recently in regards to moderniseing older models/artwork but DAMN.
If this gives me an excuse to get together a platoon of dreamforge troops and 3 leviathans I may not be able to resist.
Ultra crappy photos of the Space Marine release were out in the wild significantly earlier than usual, now we have a pretty crap shot of what would be a big seller for Imperial players so I wouldn't at all be surprised to find if this was the real deal. I've never seen a fake convince this many people or cast doubts for so long anyway.
Scrub wrote: Ultra crappy photos of the Space Marine release were out in the wild significantly earlier than usual, now we have a pretty crap shot of what would be a big seller for Imperial players so I wouldn't at all be surprised to find if this was the real deal. I've never seen a fake convince this many people or cast doubts for so long anyway.
Looking forward to seeing more!
40K Radio attributed this to the same source as their Marine leak too..
Right, well, now that we've finished yelling at one another over the veracity of a bad photograph, there's this from Natfka:
My FLGS had a copy of the Imperial Knights WD drop in from the warp. Had the stats for the Knight Paladin and Knight Errant inside.
(Superheavy walkers, not MCs, which is kind of a relief considering I've had enough MCs for a fething lifetime. Yes, this means they get Stomp, Hammer of Wrath, and all that bull.)
Paladin: 375 cost, Errant is 370. Both are AV13 front armor and 6 HP, with a 4+ invul on one facing that you choose during opponent's Shooting (but not CC or overwatch). WS, BS and I4, A3 with a strength D chainsword. Paladin is armed with a 2-shot battle cannon, and Errant has a S9 36" large blast melta. Hilariously, the Errant has a single heavy stubber, while the Paladin has 2(!!).
So, the LGS owner did a crazy thing and proxied 5 of them using Riptides against a CSM player. Promptly proceeded to murder all 9 deep-striking oblits, all the cultists, and the suicide terminator squad (Let it be said, the ability to position the deflector shield *after* movement is finished is pretty damn powerful...). Only lost because of the Chaos Spawn and HQ hid on the second level of a ruin, and the 2 Heldrakes having ridiculously good luck on their Vector Strike rolls."
I have bolded the parts I edited to remove the infuriating “It costs 10 and a half Rhinos + the square root of a Land Raider” nonsense. Just list points values people… Jesus.
Assuming these rumours are true then it's yet another highly over-costed super-heavy. Yay.
Also, the idea that they will change the name from Imperial Guard to Astra Militarium "Space Army" translating their cheezy atin-lay, so instead of the referential and well known IG we have to have the confusion of figuring out describing AM as either their space army or their tech adepts?
Paladin: 375 cost, Errant is 370. Both are AV13 front armor and 6 HP, with a 4+ invul on one facing that you choose during opponent's Shooting (but not CC or overwatch). WS, BS and I4, A3 with a strength D chainsword. Paladin is armed with a 2-shot battle cannon, and Errant has a S9 36" large blast melta. Hilariously, the Errant has a single heavy stubber, while the Paladin has 2(!!).
...
Assuming these rumours are true then it's yet another highly over-costed super-heavy. Yay.
Yeah, without doing any maths, I would have expected something with that sort of profile to be around the cost of a Land Raider ... Maybe slightly more.
Still, other than the cost, it sounds surprisingly cool. I like the idea of the mobile shield.
And if the pic is the model, kudos to GW for finally getting back on track, design-wise. Because that's exactly what I would have expected for a 40K Knight. Looks awesome.
H.B.M.C. wrote: Right, well, now that we've finished yelling at one another over the veracity of a bad photograph, there's this from Natfka:
My FLGS had a copy of the Imperial Knights WD drop in from the warp. Had the stats for the Knight Paladin and Knight Errant inside.
(Superheavy walkers, not MCs, which is kind of a relief considering I've had enough MCs for a fething lifetime. Yes, this means they get Stomp, Hammer of Wrath, and all that bull.)
Paladin: 375 cost, Errant is 370. Both are AV13 front armor and 6 HP, with a 4+ invul on one facing that you choose during opponent's Shooting (but not CC or overwatch). WS, BS and I4, A3 with a strength D chainsword. Paladin is armed with a 2-shot battle cannon, and Errant has a S9 36" large blast melta. Hilariously, the Errant has a single heavy stubber, while the Paladin has 2(!!).
So, the LGS owner did a crazy thing and proxied 5 of them using Riptides against a CSM player. Promptly proceeded to murder all 9 deep-striking oblits, all the cultists, and the suicide terminator squad (Let it be said, the ability to position the deflector shield *after* movement is finished is pretty damn powerful...). Only lost because of the Chaos Spawn and HQ hid on the second level of a ruin, and the 2 Heldrakes having ridiculously good luck on their Vector Strike rolls."
I have bolded the parts I edited to remove the infuriating “It costs 10 and a half Rhinos + the square root of a Land Raider” nonsense. Just list points values people… Jesus.
Assuming these rumours are true then it's yet another highly over-costed super-heavy. Yay.
Oh for fething feths sake.
Why the feth couldn't they just fething write some rules that meant I could actually justify buying a model I thought was cool and use it games without feeling like a fething tool?
I mean, the Wraithknight and Riptide are fairly cheesy, but at least that can be mitigated by only taking them in limited numbers, even one of these in 40K is going to be a fething snow job on unprepared opponents, and seeing as nearly all my games of 40K are pick up games, that's pretty much all of them
Congrats GW, you took a good idea and fethed it up the arse again.
Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
Can move 12", fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon, D3 stomp attacks at I step 1 which are essentially small blast D weapons.
This thing will be across the board and in assault range by turn 2, and swinging its D strength Chainsword at anything it cares to stop your opponent enjoying.
azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
I think it means that when they explode, they explode with a huge bang.
azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
Huh. Ok, that does force a slight revision upwards of the effectiveness of this thing. Still doesn't seem too unbalanced for the points cost, though.
IF this is true (a big "if," mind) I'd like to thank GW for saving me a few bucks, and I aplogize to Dreamforge that I probably won't be buying anything from them after all.
azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
I think it means that when they explode, they explode with a huge bang.
No, it means when they lose their last hull point they explode with a big bang, like what it says in the rules.
azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
Huh. Ok, that does force a slight revision upwards of the effectiveness of this thing. Still doesn't seem too unbalanced for the points cost, though.
azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
I think it means that when they explode, they explode with a huge bang.
No, it means when they lose their last hull point they explode with a big bang, like what it says in the rules.
Exactly, when they explode they explode with a huge bang, I never mentioned charts or anything, I just said they make big explosions when they die. I use my malcador defender for that one rule.
azreal13 wrote: ... fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon,
When they only have a single main gun and a heavy stubber or two, that's not really devastating.
It seems that just spreading out a couple of heavy support units at opposite ends of your deployment zone (to get around the single-facing shield) would see it come unstuck fairly quickly.
azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
I think it means that when they explode, they explode with a huge bang.
No, it means when they lose their last hull point they explode with a big bang, like what it says in the rules.
Exactly, when they explode they explode with a huge bang, I never mentioned charts or anything, I just said they make big explosions when they die. I use my malcador defender for that one rule.
Right, it read more like you were disagreeing with my post, rather than just adding to it.
azreal13 wrote: Ignores all damage results other than explodes, except for the removal of HPs, if you do roll an explodes result, you lose a further number (D3+1?) of HPs
I think it means that when they explode, they explode with a huge bang.
No, it means when they lose their last hull point they explode with a big bang, like what it says in the rules.
Exactly, when they explode they explode with a huge bang, I never mentioned charts or anything, I just said they make big explosions when they die. I use my malcador defender for that one rule.
Right, it read more like you were disagreeing with my post, rather than just adding to it.
All good, I wrote it at the same time, just really slowly
Still seems a bit silly to make it a super heavy when they could sell more if it were simply a MC (and Knights really are very small when compared to actual titans).. Oh well, GW must believe a majority of people even paid attention to escalation.
azreal13 wrote: ... fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon,
When they only have a single main gun and a heavy stubber or two, that's not really devastating.
It seems that just spreading out a couple of heavy support units at opposite ends of your deployment zone (to get around the single-facing shield) would see it come unstuck fairly quickly.
If it wasn't across the table by turn two, fair point. You'll get two chances to shoot it, at most, and one could easily point the AV13 one way and 4++ the other, depending on the weaponry.
It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, and even then they'll need to have a tailored list or a modicum of luck to stop it taking their head off.
I'm half tempted to get one to bully the WAAC Eldar player at our club who took a WK at the 500 points level of our slow grow, beginners league for 40K!
azreal13 wrote: ... fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon,
When they only have a single main gun and a heavy stubber or two, that's not really devastating.
It seems that just spreading out a couple of heavy support units at opposite ends of your deployment zone (to get around the single-facing shield) would see it come unstuck fairly quickly.
If it wasn't across the table by turn two, fair point. You'll get two chances to shoot it, at most, and one could easily point the AV13 one way and 4++ the other, depending on the weaponry.
It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, and even then they'll need to have a tailored list or a modicum of luck to stop it taking their head off.
I'm half tempted to get one to bully the WAAC Eldar player at our club who took a WK at the 500 points level of our slow grow, beginners league for 40K!
The wraithknight is better tho, it has 6 wounds which only can be removed 1 at a time, an armor save of 3+ vs no armor save and costs a lot less. AV13 is a big hinderance especially since it's probably going to be like 13/13/11 or 13/12/12. 1 dude with a melta has a great chance to do D3+1 HP to the Knight. If I want a large blast melta I'll take a cestus, if I want 2 battle cannons uh I guess I can take 2 leman russ tanks (or just not use battle cannons). I play a lot of apoc with a variety of rules so I have a pretty good idea of how super heavies perform (or don't perform.. usually don't perform unless they got some crazy firepower)
azreal13 wrote: ... fire all weapons regardless of anything, at different targets for each weapon,
When they only have a single main gun and a heavy stubber or two, that's not really devastating.
It seems that just spreading out a couple of heavy support units at opposite ends of your deployment zone (to get around the single-facing shield) would see it come unstuck fairly quickly.
If it wasn't across the table by turn two, fair point. You'll get two chances to shoot it, at most, and one could easily point the AV13 one way and 4++ the other, depending on the weaponry.
It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, and even then they'll need to have a tailored list or a modicum of luck to stop it taking their head off.
I'm half tempted to get one to bully the WAAC Eldar player at our club who took a WK at the 500 points level of our slow grow, beginners league for 40K!
The wraithknight is better tho, it has 6 wounds which only can be removed 1 at a time, an armor save of 3+ vs no armor save and costs a lot less. AV13 is a big hinderance especially since it's probably going to be like 13/13/11 or 13/12/12. 1 dude with a melta has a great chance to do D3+1 HP to the Knight. If I want a large blast melta I'll take a cestus, if I want 2 battle cannons uh I guess I can take 2 leman russ tanks (or just not use battle cannons)
Strength D means multiple wounds on a 2+, ludicrous amounts of wounds in a 6 (D6+6 IIRC) with no saves of any kind.
It can knock a WK on its arse in one hit, the reverse is possible, but requires a lot better rolling.
Can it? I didn't realize it's CC attack had RANGE. You can't simply assume it'll get into CC, when it's slower than the wraithknight.
Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy. To be good super heavies need to take ADVANTAGE of their rules to shoot lots of guns and suffer no damage except death. This thing has 1 gun and who cares about strength D close combat, that's almost meaningless in real games.
I was getting kind of excited, but seeing that puts me right off. Maybe the kit will be so beautiful I'll buy one for a display piece...or terrain, or something.
Such a weird way of making some things MCs and others walkers. Do they have a lottery to determine it?
Fluff wise, this is the only sensible option. It makes no sense as an MC, and regular walkers are too weak. Super-heavy walkers all have crazy S weapons though, and lots of people (myself included) feel that D weapons are inappropriate for regular 40K.
Kirasu wrote: Can it? I didn't realize it's CC attack had RANGE. You can't simply assume it'll get into CC, when it's slower than the wraithknight.
Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy. To be good super heavies need to take ADVANTAGE of their rules to shoot lots of guns and suffer no damage except death. This thing has 1 gun and who cares about strength D close combat, that's almost meaningless in real games.
It moves 12" a turn, plus charge, plus it can tank shock the WK before it charges (at least I can't see any exclusion in escalation for walkers, it just says super heavy vehicles) which is potentially 2D6 S10 AP2 hits, or, more likely s6 hits, which won't bother a WK, but will bother a Tide, HoW when it charges, and assuming its still standing, stomp at I1 for a potential number of extra D (effectively) hits. Stomps do have range, as subsequent blasts after the first can be placed up to 3" away from the first, so yes, it can kick a Wraithknight in the face, at range, and instakill it with the right rolls.
I was getting kind of excited, but seeing that puts me right off. Maybe the kit will be so beautiful I'll buy one for a display piece...or terrain, or something.
Such a weird way of making some things MCs and others walkers. Do they have a lottery to determine it?
Obviously they use a random chart and a narrative..
Yeah, I hope it's a great model because for Apoc I rarely use GW's rules as written, I tend to take their decent ideas and actually make them work in a fun way so not a big deal to change the rules of this Knight assuming it has a good model.
Kirasu wrote: Can it? I didn't realize it's CC attack had RANGE. You can't simply assume it'll get into CC, when it's slower than the wraithknight.
Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy. To be good super heavies need to take ADVANTAGE of their rules to shoot lots of guns and suffer no damage except death. This thing has 1 gun and who cares about strength D close combat, that's almost meaningless in real games.
It moves 12" a turn, plus charge, plus it can tank shock the WK before it charges (at least I can't see any exclusion in escalation for walkers, it just says super heavy vehicles) HoW when it charges, and assuming its still standing, stomp at I1 for a potential number of extra D (effectively) hits. Stomps do have range, as subsequent blasts after the first can be placed up to 3" away from the first, so yes, it can kick a Wraithknight in the face, at range, and instakill it with the right rolls.
Without even assaulting it.
That doesn't even make sense, how can it instant kill it without assaulting? It has a battle cannon. So what the wraith knight jumps 12" a turn, you're using a lot of assumptions that depend on a totally braindead Eldar player.. not an Eldar player who knows how to play 40k even a little bit. All that's going to happen is you'll rush this thing up to engage the wraith knight who is ALSO moving 12" and then die to wave serpents in side/rear, fire dragons, wraith cannons or whatever the Eldar player has.
I'm sorry but I've been running apoc games since it came out in 2008 and this is NOT a good super heavy. It's just another overpriced imperial super heavy vehicle with a battle cannon. If it was AV14 tho...
Kirasu wrote: Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy.
Isn't putting "DOA" and "super heavy" in the same sentence somewhat redundant? Outside of things that have multiple multi-shot D weapons, are there any super heavies that perform to their points cost? Does the Khornemower live up to its (obviously derived-by-fluff-and-not-by-use) 888 point price tag? Does the Baneblade leave all of its 525 points on the table? Does the Vulcan Macharius feel like 405 points well spent?
I was getting kind of excited, but seeing that puts me right off. Maybe the kit will be so beautiful I'll buy one for a display piece...or terrain, or something.
Such a weird way of making some things MCs and others walkers. Do they have a lottery to determine it?
Obviously they use a random chart and a narrative..
Yeah, I hope it's a great model because for Apoc I rarely use GW's rules as written, I tend to take their decent ideas and actually make them work in a fun way so not a big deal to change the rules of this Knight assuming it has a good model.
Silly me, I'm not thinking in narratives.
Anyways, I would have been happy with a buffed MC statline. Well that and maybe a better gun option. Heavy stubbers, seriously?
I guess it can move 12" after checking the apoc rules again. Meh, still pretty fragile for the points cost and its only redeeming feature is the S: D melee weapon. I guess its fluffy? Sorry, narrative-y?
*Edit* Maybe I'm wrong on all this its the greatest thing since...something great. I just can't shake the feeling that a 6HP AV13 vehicle (even with a facing of 4++) is pretty fragile for 370pts.
Isn't putting "DOA" and "super heavy" in the same sentence somewhat redundant? Outside of things that have multiple multi-shot D weapons, are there any super heavies that perform to their points cost? Does the Khornemower live up to its (obviously derived-by-fluff-and-not-by-use) 888 point price tag? Does the Baneblade leave all of its 525 points on the table? Does the Vulcan Macharius feel like 405 points well spent?
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Kirasu wrote: Looks to be a pretty big DOA super heavy.
Isn't putting "DOA" and "super heavy" in the same sentence somewhat redundant? Outside of things that have multiple multi-shot D weapons, are there any super heavies that perform to their points cost? Does the Khornemower live up to its (obviously derived-by-fluff-and-not-by-use) 888 point price tag? Does the Baneblade leave all of its 525 points on the table? Does the Vulcan Macharius feel like 405 points well spent?
Truth, there are not very many super heavies I consider good even tho I own a ton. The new variant baneblade that is a Hellhammer upgrade is generally good (with its long range S10 ignores cover 10" blast gun).. but yeah it is over 500 points. Generally to be a solid choice it needs to be able to survive longer than a normal vehicle to deliver more firepower AND have many more guns than a normal vehicle (depending on points). For a 500 pt super heavy I'd say it needs to have 4-5x the firepower of a 150 pt vehicle. In general GW is pretty bad at designing super heavies but what else is new.
Or it needs to do something useful such as the SM super heavy raider with the feedback gun that totally shuts down titans basically (or be a large/fast assault vehicle). Unfortunately, other units can fire battle cannons and attack things in CC so it's not horribly useful.
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Okay I'll agree here, IT is better than an awful CSM demon prince with way too many upgrades :p
This makes me feel like GW is trying to crowbar Escalation onto tabletops. This, coupled with the 6.5 rulebook rumor (which might incorporate the supplements into the book itself) make it seem like that may be their aim. Turning this game into Apoc. . .first it was flyers, now it is super-heavies (if all the rumors are true).
Wonder if it makes it into the Imperial. . err. . .Astra Militaris codex.
tomjoad wrote: Fluff wise, this is the only sensible option. It makes no sense as an MC, ....
Only because GW are maintaining that divide between vehicles and other units. The choice to cast the Wraithknight and Riptide as MCs instead was a ray of hope that maybe GW were starting to work to wards consolidating walkers into the MC rules, but alas, it seems that this is not to be.
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puma713 wrote: This makes me feel like GW is trying to crowbar Escalation onto tabletops.
The very existence of Escalation in the first place didn't tell you that ...?
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Okay I'll agree here, IT is better than an awful CSM demon prince with way too many upgrades :p
Yeah, cause flying, mastery 3 Tzeentch princes with armour are simply awful
I'm just going to through my two cents in here on super heavy's and apocalypse. I bought escalation and a shadow sword but I only did it for fun games not to run in every game ( I figured that after one game). I like escalation and super heavy's they should be playable in fun games if both players agree..... They should not be forced down on the players wish GW would get the hint
azreal13 wrote: It isn't indestructible, but it is going to have to be target priority one for your opponent, ...
It's a stonkin' great walker stomping up the middle of the table. It should be target priority one
Plus, going with Escalation rules it's a free VP for every three hull points. Fielding a superheavy of any kind means it's going to be shot at like there's no tomorrow
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Okay I'll agree here, IT is better than an awful CSM demon prince with way too many upgrades :p
Yeah, cause flying, mastery 3 Tzeentch princes with armour are simply awful
I'm glad we agree that a 350 points T5 model with 4 wounds are awful!
ultimentra wrote: To me, superheavy means, will never see the light of day in any sensible 40k game at my LGS. Unless your playing Apoc, leave the supers at home.
Instead of this dead weight release, they should have just given us our damn IG codex.
puma713 wrote: This makes me feel like GW is trying to crowbar Escalation onto tabletops.
The very existence of Escalation in the first place didn't tell you that ...?
Maybe I should've rephrased. . ."into mainstream 40K."
I concur. It's sad to see the rules are what they are, but GW is mostly miss when it comes to rules as opposed to hit. What's interesting are the implications. Big kits don't sell if people at the back of their minds are worrying they won't be able to use the model in games. That's the entire purpose of the Escalation rules supplement -- To boost the sales of Stompas, Baneblades, Khornemowers, Necron crap, Forceworld, etc. Now they release more Lords of War plastic kits, but people still feel it won't be allowed in games, meaning the sales will be lower than otherwise.
If GW knows what's good for them in this regard they'll have to write the lords of war into the core rules as crystal clear as possible come summer. Otherwise they'll have a dozen kits people consider illegal (because these guys themselves can't afford them or cba painting them).
As far as the rules are concerned, being a super-heavy walker is atleast better than being just a walker. Superheavies are sort of monstrous creatures anyway since the hull points operate similarly to wounds and it can't be shaken, stunned or immobilised etc. I wouldn't be so outraged about that. It's weak vs. Necron weaponry but them's the breaks. If it gets shot by a strength D weapon it has a larger chance of survival than a Wraithknight which just dies on a 2+. The points cost is the worrying part, but it can make its points back with one good combat phase. It destroys Seer Councils, Screamerstars, MCs and vehicles in combat, and it gets to pop a couple large pie plates at units on the way there. Just remember the difference between 'omg cheesy' and 'that sucks' is so small. If it cost 300 points it might be the best unit in the game. If it costs 375 points? We'll see.
The actual problem is the metagame in which lords of war slots are allowed. If you get to pick one LoW you won't pick a Knight Paladin when the other guys are running Warhounds, Revenants or bigger. Unless of course this is the first super-heavy (with a D weapon no less) that doesn't use a Lord of War slot, and is just heavy support or whatever. Now that would be interesting. Coteaz and his BFF henchmen, 3 Knights and a Warhound in 2000pts?
The thing is, even if they write them solidly into the rules, people will not allow them in games if they feel unbalanced.
There are still people out there who question the use of Special Characters, despite them only actuallyy requiring your opponent's permission for a relatively brief period (and even then permission not being required for all of them) due to so many players just refusing to play against them in 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition.
Shoehorning Apocalypse into regular games won't get people to accept superheavies. Writing rules that people perceive as allowing the use of superheavies without requiring armies to be specifically tailored to realistically go up against them is what will do that.
Ha! Who is copying who now? This looks to be a blatant attempt to capture some of Dreamforge's current lockdown on big stompy gothic robots.
While I don't care for any big stompy gothic robots, I hope Mark crushes them in the marketplace. There is no way they come out priced less than Mark's 15mm leviathians, and there is a pretty good chance they can't compete on quality/poseability/modularity either.
With other Apocalypse units around, sure, but as a Lord Of War (heaven forbid its in the regular Force Org for anything) this is a bit more expensive than a tooled up Daemon Prince or GD, and excluding favourable psychic power rolls, can probably take them out in one round.
Okay I'll agree here, IT is better than an awful CSM demon prince with way too many upgrades :p
Yeah, cause flying, mastery 3 Tzeentch princes with armour are simply awful
I'm glad we agree that a 350 points T5 model with 4 wounds are awful!
Just to be clear, this sort of response isn't going to get any further rise out of me, despite the fact that from this side of my screen that appears to be what you're after. It is adding nothing to the discussion, and while you might be amusing yourself, or even think you're actually being witty, all you're doing is undermining any serious contributions you may make.
And for the record, I was referring to the CD DPs not CSM.
Now, back OT
Do the stubbers mean that it can effectively 'mark' one unit to assault, and fire it's main gun at another target, allowing it to try and spread it's damage output around more effectively?
insaniak wrote: The thing is, even if they write them solidly into the rules, people will not allow them in games if they feel unbalanced.
There are still people out there who question the use of Special Characters, despite them only actuallyy requiring your opponent's permission for a relatively brief period (and even then permission not being required for all of them) due to so many players just refusing to play against them in 2nd, 3rd and 4th edition.
Shoehorning Apocalypse into regular games won't get people to accept superheavies. Writing rules that people perceive as allowing the use of superheavies without requiring armies to be specifically tailored to realistically go up against them is what will do that.
The bolded will never happen. It's irrelevant anyway, since you can make lists with no super-heavies that can't be really beat by 99% of the armies out there unless you specifically tailor against them, and you always could. 40K is not balanced, and it never has been, and the strongest lists can go on outrageous win streaks of 50 games or so purely on auto-pilot.
I thought fortifications and allies were a completely ridiculous idea in 40K, and still do, and I know a lot of people who felt/feel the same way, but yet mono-codex armies have gone the way of the dodo and double and triple codex armies are the standard these days and all of them come with a couple of buildings sprinkled on top. If super-heavies go into the core rules, they'll become an integral part of the game, whether 'those guys who still don't allow special characters' writing angry comments from their murky basements like it or not.
Do the stubbers mean that it can effectively 'mark' one unit to assault, and fire it's main gun at another target, allowing it to try and spread it's damage output around more effectively?
If it is a super heavy, that means it can fire at separate targets and elect to assault any one of them. I don't see any reason why not.
I can't believe that reasonable adults, whether in fun-fun fluffy games or in tournament 40k or anything in between, will ever allow D weapons in regular games, without extensive tailoring on both player's parts. I'm glad rules exist to allow it, but until the D is changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
tomjoad wrote: I can't believe that reasonable adults, whether in fun-fun fluffy games or in tournament 40k or anything in between, will ever allow D weapons in regular games, without extensive tailoring on both player's parts. I'm glad rules exist to allow it, but until the D is changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
I have less of a problem with D melee weapons, as there is a lot more that can be done to mitigate them, but basically this.
tomjoad wrote: I can't believe that reasonable adults, whether in fun-fun fluffy games or in tournament 40k or anything in between, will ever allow D weapons in regular games, without extensive tailoring on both player's parts. I'm glad rules exist to allow it, but until the D is changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
Keep fighting the good fight. If people like you existed a couple years back, maybe we wouldn't have to deal with Seer Councils that are only made viable by Baron and Grislies, and TauDar, Eldau, Taucrons, Chaoscrons, etc in general on a regular basis. No reasonable adult would ever allow armies to remove their few codex-designed weaknesses by just taking allies (from multiple codices if need be) to fill in the blanks with a few void shields sprinkled on top. I'm glad rules exist to allow allies for fluffy narratives, campaigns and team games, but untill the allies are changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
To me strength D is no more ridiculous than all the other ridiculous crap in the game already, and personally I think there's more variation to strength D (there's a ton of units that can have it) than there is to watching unkillable Seer Councils and Screamerstars wreck face. Strength D removes every death star unit from the face of 40K, and I support any change that brings that about.
If it is a super heavy walker with a strength d weapon and an obscene points cost I might have to house rule it to make It more fun for buth myself and my opponents, use the riptide and wraith knight as a template and write from there.
For 375 with the shooting it's got and the ability to set your shield (read 4++) after your opponent moves and it's CC ability I think it's actually in the right range price wise. That said I'm extremely sad it's a Lord of War, has a D-Weapon, and isn't an MC.
Hulksmash wrote: For 375 with the shooting it's got and the ability to set your shield (read 4++) after your opponent moves and it's CC ability I think it's actually in the right range price wise. That said I'm extremely said it's a Lord of War, has a D-Weapon, and isn't an MC.
I'm going to speculate that we haven't seen all the options either.
If I read things correctly, the WD didn't include the complete rules for all the dwarf units, and I wouldn't be surprised if there were more options available, either in the kit, or in the pipeline as upgrades from FW.
That likely won't make them non-LoW or a MC of course, but it might provide some non-D weapons and some other more interesting loadouts
They'll appear on the FWHH books. Those books reference Knight super-heavy walkers directly when talking about various bits of wargear in there. They'll get an entry in the next few books, including more options and then (no doubt) a few conversion kits to make older HH-era patterns.
Gallahad wrote: Ha! Who is copying who now? This looks to be a blatant attempt to capture some of Dreamforge's current lockdown on big stompy gothic robots.
Uh.... yeah. Given that GW's knights have been around since the 80's, this isn't GW copying anyone.
Gallahad wrote: Ha! Who is copying who now? This looks to be a blatant attempt to capture some of Dreamforge's current lockdown on big stompy gothic robots.
While I don't care for any big stompy gothic robots, I hope Mark crushes them in the marketplace. There is no way they come out priced less than Mark's 15mm leviathians, and there is a pretty good chance they can't compete on quality/poseability/modularity either.
You need to go back and look at Epic over 20 years ago.
Gallahad wrote: Ha! Who is copying who now? This looks to be a blatant attempt to capture some of Dreamforge's current lockdown on big stompy gothic robots.
Uh.... yeah. Given that GW's knights have been around since the 80's, this isn't GW copying anyone.
Except maybe Robot Jox and Battletech, but hey...who didn't
The diversity of Knights really leaves a lot to be expanded upon by GW or FW in 40k. Originally there were lancers, warden, and paladin knights. That was expanded to much different lancers, castellan and crusaders, paladins and errants, and Barons. Seeing them do those would make me giddy.
I suspect it'll be with these other variants FW will let their imagination run wild. I can imagine the wardens, castellan, crusader, and castellan's weapon load outs will make people happier about their superheavy status.
If these end up superheavy I just think we'll end up seeing FW make something new Dreadknight or Decimator in sized that fights alongside these.
Knights are not Titans just getting that out of the way
For the masses complaining Oh joy another "D" weapon it is a CC weapon that can only be used on large objects buildings any thing MC and above and vehicles with HP all other get a stomp attack.
While they are titanesque they are not titans, (unless gw decide to change that). It's been categorically stated a few times in various fluff pieces. What do you reckon of the chances of forgeworld doing a caban engine now that we have these guys?
H.B.M.C. wrote: It's like the Macharius - over 100 points more than something that has better armour, better weapons and can transport troops.
About par for the course with modern GW. They're so blinded by their own blithering incompetence they have the rules writing acumen of a 12-year-old. It's telling that they don't understand the workings of their own rules engine or points system in any but the most superficial of levels. I would be very surprised to find that any testing at all takes place.
tomjoad wrote: I can't believe that reasonable adults, whether in fun-fun fluffy games or in tournament 40k or anything in between, will ever allow D weapons in regular games, without extensive tailoring on both player's parts. I'm glad rules exist to allow it, but until the D is changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
Keep fighting the good fight. If people like you existed a couple years back, maybe we wouldn't have to deal with Seer Councils that are only made viable by Baron and Grislies, and TauDar, Eldau, Taucrons, Chaoscrons, etc in general on a regular basis. No reasonable adult would ever allow armies to remove their few codex-designed weaknesses by just taking allies (from multiple codices if need be) to fill in the blanks with a few void shields sprinkled on top. I'm glad rules exist to allow allies for fluffy narratives, campaigns and team games, but untill the allies are changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
To me strength D is no more ridiculous than all the other ridiculous crap in the game already, and personally I think there's more variation to strength D (there's a ton of units that can have it) than there is to watching unkillable Seer Councils and Screamerstars wreck face. Strength D removes every death star unit from the face of 40K, and I support any change that brings that about.
While I agree that the deathstar mentality has pervaded 40K and the new ally rules have made it easy to find these combos, allies themselves are not new to 40K. I used to run an Eldar list with Terminators and a Vindicare Assassin a loooong time ago. That was back when you rolled 3+ on 2D6 for terminator armor, iirc.
tomjoad wrote: I can't believe that reasonable adults, whether in fun-fun fluffy games or in tournament 40k or anything in between, will ever allow D weapons in regular games, without extensive tailoring on both player's parts. I'm glad rules exist to allow it, but until the D is changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
Keep fighting the good fight. If people like you existed a couple years back, maybe we wouldn't have to deal with Seer Councils that are only made viable by Baron and Grislies, and TauDar, Eldau, Taucrons, Chaoscrons, etc in general on a regular basis. No reasonable adult would ever allow armies to remove their few codex-designed weaknesses by just taking allies (from multiple codices if need be) to fill in the blanks with a few void shields sprinkled on top. I'm glad rules exist to allow allies for fluffy narratives, campaigns and team games, but untill the allies are changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
To me strength D is no more ridiculous than all the other ridiculous crap in the game already, and personally I think there's more variation to strength D (there's a ton of units that can have it) than there is to watching unkillable Seer Councils and Screamerstars wreck face. Strength D removes every death star unit from the face of 40K, and I support any change that brings that about.
We shouldn't be introducing even more wonky things to fix wonky rules. We should be fixing the stupid rules that are causing the problem in the first place. Its like that scene in Major Pain where he "helps" a man who was shot in the leg ignore the pain by breaking his finger.
Adding more crap isn't going to fix anything at this point.
Also, there's no real reason why the Knight would be an MC. Say what you want about the Riptide and whatever the Eldar Voltron thing is, but they have their MC status rooted to the fact that their "little brothers" have MC profiles as well. If broadsides had a similar profile to sentinels or something and then we got the riptide as an MC, I could see the issue, but it really shouldn't surprise anybody that the Knight will probably be a Walker and not MC.
I'm not saying that it makes sense mechanics wise, just that that's the precedence so far for this kind of thing.
tomjoad wrote: I can't believe that reasonable adults, whether in fun-fun fluffy games or in tournament 40k or anything in between, will ever allow D weapons in regular games, without extensive tailoring on both player's parts. I'm glad rules exist to allow it, but until the D is changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
Keep fighting the good fight. If people like you existed a couple years back, maybe we wouldn't have to deal with Seer Councils that are only made viable by Baron and Grislies, and TauDar, Eldau, Taucrons, Chaoscrons, etc in general on a regular basis. No reasonable adult would ever allow armies to remove their few codex-designed weaknesses by just taking allies (from multiple codices if need be) to fill in the blanks with a few void shields sprinkled on top. I'm glad rules exist to allow allies for fluffy narratives, campaigns and team games, but untill the allies are changed (weakened, I mean), it's a non-starter no matter what book the rules are written in.
To me strength D is no more ridiculous than all the other ridiculous crap in the game already, and personally I think there's more variation to strength D (there's a ton of units that can have it) than there is to watching unkillable Seer Councils and Screamerstars wreck face. Strength D removes every death star unit from the face of 40K, and I support any change that brings that about.
We shouldn't be introducing even more wonky things to fix wonky rules. We should be fixing the stupid rules that are causing the problem in the first place. Its like that scene in Major Pain where he "helps" a man who was shot in the leg ignore the pain by breaking his finger.
Adding more crap isn't going to fix anything at this point.
Also, there's no real reason why the Knight would be an MC. Say what you want about the Riptide and whatever the Eldar Voltron thing is, but they have their MC status rooted to the fact that their "little brothers" have MC profiles as well. If broadsides had a similar profile to sentinels or something and then we got the riptide as an MC, I could see the issue, but it really shouldn't surprise anybody that the Knight will probably be a Walker and not MC.
I'm not saying that it makes sense mechanics wise, just that that's the precedence so far for this kind of thing.
I'll gladly play a game with no allies and no fortifications. While you're at it throw out flyers too. The game would be better off if none of the previous existed. If you do include those however, I assume lords of war are welcome too.
All this talk about 'we shouldn't be introducing' is laughable. The rules have been introduced. They're legal. Deal with it.
tomjoad wrote: IF this is true (a big "if," mind) I'd like to thank GW for saving me a few bucks, and I aplogize to Dreamforge that I probably won't be buying anything from them after all.
I suppose GW did the right thing than... put out a competing plastic stompy walker for those that like to build stompy walkers in plastic, but don't make the rules so good as to actually benefit the third-party they try to bully a bit.
I find it rather hilarious how many people openly peg their purchase of third-party product to good (or overpowered) GW rules ( their rules, of all things!!), yet when GW writes rules "to sell models" (their own that is) it's suddenly heresy.
I guess we weren't likely to avoid the whole "I hate superheavies in normal games" thing getting retreaded, clearly that's unresolved, but we only think it's a superheavy because of something Natfka said, and he's 50/50 at best, right? Maybe we'd benefit from cooling it until we've got confirmation.
Therion wrote: I'll gladly play a game with no allies and no fortifications.
You dislike fortifications that much? I'd've thought they'd be the least offensive of the new things.
They don't add anything positive. Sure they aren't as offensive as allies, flyers and superheavies, all of which can create armies that the other guy loses to 100-0 unless he is prepared specifically for them, but they're still bad. It's visually displeasing to have two fortifications facing eachother. On top of that they feel like an always taken for many armies, seeing as many fortifications are underpriced for what they do. They also create problems for tournament organisers as you need to design tables with deployment zones that have room for large extra buildings. They're also a nightmare from a modelling for advantage perspective. In short, they're a needless addition to standard 40K play, and I wouldn't mind them go the way of superheavies, allies, flyers, wacky magical terrain rules, etc, into pre-arranged campaign play.
Basically everything added during 6th edition has been bad for balance. 40K needs to become a skirmish game again or atleast a game between just tank hordes because its easier to manage and fits the current table sizes better. To me the only other option is to just allow everything. I can't stand the people who are picking and choosing that their 1000 point allied Seer Council is fine and that the army with 12 flyers is fine, but a guy with a Revenant or a Knight Paladin is somehow crossing the line.
Therion wrote: ... They also create problems for tournament organisers as you need to design tables with deployment zones that have room for large extra buildings
Or just go the 'players set up the terrain' option from the rulebook, which is what TOs around here seem to be going for.
Say what you want about the Riptide and whatever the Eldar Voltron thing is, but they have their MC status rooted to the fact that their "little brothers" have MC profiles as well. If broadsides had a similar profile to sentinels or something and then we got the riptide as an MC, I could see the issue, but it really shouldn't surprise anybody that the Knight will probably be a Walker and not MC.
Marines, Terminators and the centurions have wounds - so by that logic Dreadnoughts should be MC's as well?
Riptides are too good for their points - especially as MC's but that train has departed
I'll gladly play a game with no allies and no fortifications.
I'd gladly play a game with no cheese units like Wave Serpents - All are in the rules and its up to people to decide what they want to use or not use - a lot of people ignore elements of the rules - including most tourneys - such as Mysterious Objectives so 40k seems to be increasingly becoming a menu to choose which elements of it your group wants to use.
Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
H.B.M.C. wrote:I'm convinced the 60" multi-shot Serpent Field was a mistake that made it through to the printers.
Quite a huge mistake then, for the most experienced rules-writer of GW team. And it is not a isolated mistake also. Phil Kelly apparently wanted to copy what Tau codex had with their multinode markerlights, so shoehorned a reroll granted by scatter laser. This is where I wish the design team made some probability math before laying down stupid rules on their books. When using TL scatter lasers, Wave Serpent score an amazing 99.985 % probability of twin-linking their other weapons against ground targets, including an already overpowered shock wave field, it should be obvious that something is wrong.
Kroothawk wrote:Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out? What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
By normal armies, do you include those absurdities of jetbike deathstars with rerollable 2+ saves ? And support weapon madness spam, laying down the hurt from a skyshield and so on... Unrestricted WH40k tournament play has gone out of control due to fortifications and allies matrix anyway.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm convinced the 60" multi-shot Serpent Field was a mistake that made it through to the printers.
If only they errata'd it to be a much more sane 24" or 30"
One shot and/or 12" range would be more realistic - could then also drop some points but presently its a pretty horrifically powerful multi-role weapons platform that to be fair (and compounding the problem) is the only DT that Eldar players have - another error.
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out? What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
You're lying. Everyone only ever plays competitive tournaments. Narrative Gaming is nothing but an excuse by GW to hide the fact that they are purposefully flipping the bird to their "only" customers. There is no market for narrative.
H.B.M.C. wrote: I'm convinced the 60" multi-shot Serpent Field was a mistake that made it through to the printers.
If only they errata'd it to be a much more sane 24" or 30"
Given the mobility of WS this would not be a big deal. From Epic SM/TL old days WS had an huge range, so they wanted to bring it back in WH40k, this is understandable. But it should have been heavy 2 at most (for the 2 hull wings of WS). Or a single big blast, powerful but less versatile.
ph34r wrote:At least wave serpents aren't invincible any more?
WS put out an average of 4 strength 7 hits, which on the Paladin / Errant gives 4/3 hull points with an appropriately chosen facing. For one paladin, you get nearly THREE wave serpents. And if the big imperial knight really becomes a problem, don't forget eldar can swap their scatter laser for a bright lance, gratis. And take wraithknights for dual S:10 shots. So, no, WS will still rule the tables.
I think the facts that the Imperial Knight is a form of Walker, and that it is a Lord of War instead of a spammable Heavy or Elite option, already makes it inferior to the Wraithknight and Riptide.
Both of which are monstrous creatures that cannot explode quickly, have a series of armor and invulnerable saves, and can be taken in force.
I would not pay nearly 400 pts for a Lord of War with a two-shot Battle Cannon and some Heavy Stubbers!
I'm more than happy with my 15mm leviathans subbing in as knights (riptides) in my adep-taus-mechanicus army the size is bang on and fit nicely with the not over ornamented aesthetic of the forgeworld legio cybernetics models. If this turns out to be enormous id be more likely to run it as a reasonable cost rule set for a war hound.
Ravajaxe wrote: WS put out an average of 4 strength 7 hits, which on the Paladin / Errant gives 4/3 hull points with an appropriately chosen facing. For one paladin, you get nearly THREE wave serpents. And if the big imperial knight really becomes a problem, don't forget eldar can swap their scatter laser for a bright lance, gratis. And take wraithknights for dual S:10 shots. So, no, WS will still rule the tables.
via Imber from the Faeit 212 inbox
Kits are in US and have been for some time, at least a week. Insider surprised it took this long to leak. From sounds of it, wide access to loyalist armies.
Also a store is already accepting pre-orders for Imperial Knights. Store name withheld for obvious reasons.
via a store in Arizona's Facebook page
Pre-Order the Imperial Knight Titan, and the WD with it's rules at the shop now!!!
(Superheavy walkers, not MCs, which is kind of a relief considering I've had enough MCs for a fething lifetime. Yes, this means they get Stomp, Hammer of Wrath, and all that bull.)
Paladin: 75 guardsmen cost, Errant is 74. Both are Stormraven AVs with +1 front armor and double the HP, with a 4+ invul on one facing that you choose during opponent's Shooting (but not CC or overwatch). Marine WS, BS, and I, Captain number of attacks with a strength D chainsword. Paladin is armed with a 2-shot battle cannon, and Errant has a +1S 36" large blast melta. Hilariously, the Errant has a single heavy stubber, while the Paladin has 2(!!).
So, the LGS owner did a crazy thing and proxied 5 of them using Riptides against a CSM player. Promptly proceeded to murder all 9 deep-striking oblits, all the cultists, and the suicide terminator squad (Let it be said, the ability to position the deflector shield *after* movement is finished is pretty damn powerful...). Only lost because of the Chaos Spawn and HQ hid on the second level of a ruin, and the 2 Heldrakes having ridiculously good luck on their Vector Strike rolls."
Smashotron wrote: I think the facts that the Imperial Knight is a form of Walker, and that it is a Lord of War instead of a spammable Heavy or Elite option, already makes it inferior to the Wraithknight and Riptide.
Both of which are monstrous creatures that cannot explode quickly, have a series of armor and invulnerable saves, and can be taken in force.
I would not pay nearly 400 pts for a Lord of War with a two-shot Battle Cannon and some Heavy Stubbers!
Assuming that with the rumored new 6.1 edition this summer, there isn't a distinction between models using superheavy rules and models in the lord of war slot.
The color choices, markings and other indicators put it inline with art/painting from the last year or two from the GW studio as well. It definately looks as though an actual picture was touched up, adding details like parchment looking bits under the gun, or perhaps a 3D render which was then touched up in Photoshop. IIRC though, GW has started doing that in some of their propaganda art anyway, so that isnt a give away that it is fake at all.
Almost everything about the figure is different from Epic period knights. You can go back and take a look at them on sites like Stuff of Legends, and the way legs are built, weapons are designed and especially artistic styles are different from then to this image.
Regarding the photo, I don't see anything that would say it's a fake. The Knight looks like a painted model - there's plenty of detail in the parts, and I don't see anything that couldn't be painted plastic, considering that the model is supposed to be quite big. Also, all the details in the model are 100% GW style. The photo looks like the model is put close to the building models, then photographed from below with a wide angle lens, which makes the flamer look a bit distorted.
Further, it looks like the image is on a loose shiny paper, based on the flash reflection and slight warping of the text, meaning that the paper is curved like a magazine page could be. From the lack of other details, I'd guess it might be the 'next issue' back page of WD.
Of course you could manufacture such image, but it would take a ton of work. 3d or photoshop the model to look like it's a model kit, photoshop it into existing background, print on shiny paper and photograph it. Seems like too much work to be a hoax.
streetsamurai wrote: I dont take seriously rumours from random unproven folks unless they're are some pics.
First, that mystery manager claims it's a Lord orf War. Then he plays a demo game with proxies spamming FIVE of them.
Fishy.
Who really knows these days? Dataslate units don't take take force organisation slots unless specified, and if the Knights are released as a form of a dataslate in the WD, it might not take any slots at all. It would explain people just incorrectly calling it a lord of war when they just mean it's a superheavy.
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
You're lying. Everyone only ever plays competitive tournaments. Narrative Gaming is nothing but an excuse by GW to hide the fact that they are purposefully flipping the bird to their "only" customers. There is no market for narrative.
Just in case anyone plans to take exception to this, although it seems most are doing well at overlooking/ignoring it, please be aware that this is one of Zwei's favourite "thread derailment, everyone look at me" topics, so please, with as much humility as I can offer, please don't indulge him.
OT I'm still really excited for the model, but I think the rules have reduced my purchase plans from camping outside for the local GW to open on release day with a wedge of notes to order from discounter eventually, perhaps even as far as buy one from eBay if it hasn't been utterly destroyed by poly cement and Dulux paint.
I've downgraded my own pre-order to just the White Dwarf with the rules. Seeing as it's a super-heavy, I don't have a real need for more than one model at the moment. Escalation isn't played over here and Apocalypse is quite rare as is.
Kroothawk wrote: Anyone else has the Godzilla movie feeling, where normal armies stand back and watch the titanic dudes fight it out?
What's the point in having normal armies in 40k games then?
You're not going to like this post at all but I actually quite like the sound of a couple of titanic dudes fighting it out while a normal battle goes on around them. Now that there's rumoured to be a big imperial walker, I'm thinking about getting one and a Wraithknight for Mrs. Bull0's Ulthwé, just to see them face off across the table while the footsloggers wrestle on the ground.
But I'm the kind of muppet they're pitching the "forging a narrative" crap to, really, I don't play in tournaments and I don't care that much about balance. If it fits the fiction (which admittedly half the time with modern GW, it doesn't), I'm in.
You're lying. Everyone only ever plays competitive tournaments. Narrative Gaming is nothing but an excuse by GW to hide the fact that they are purposefully flipping the bird to their "only" customers. There is no market for narrative.
Just in case anyone plans to take exception to this, although it seems most are doing well at overlooking/ignoring it, please be aware that this is one of Zwei's favourite "thread derailment, everyone look at me" topics, so please, with as much humility as I can offer, please don't indulge him.
OT I'm still really excited for the model, but I think the rules have reduced my purchase plans from camping outside for the local GW to open on release day with a wedge of notes to order from discounter eventually, perhaps even as far as buy one from eBay if it hasn't been utterly destroyed by poly cement and Dulux paint.
It is a bit of his patented "Swoop-n-Poop", isn't it?
Combine that with the general lack of 'tone' on the Internet, and Bad Things usually happen.
Still, good to see that they haven't yet, and that everyone is staying the course...?
The Imperium just put their purge mode into super mega overdrive.
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