Kanluwen wrote: Do we have actual, 100% confirmation of those rules or is it still at that stage of "Soandso saw it, here's what he saw"?
Nah, that's the whole thing, I pointed out a few pages ago that this is just based off "A store manager somewhere got his stuff early and did this", everyone's taken it as official and gone on long diatribes about how they hate superheavies in 40k, fortifications in 40k, wave serpents(!) etc. It's silly, is what it is.
Sirius42 wrote: It's been categorically stated a few times in various fluff pieces.
Well they were described as small scale Titans in Titan Legions which is where the majority of Knight Household fluff comes from. They certainly look like a titan and given their multiple weapon systems they almost certainly have an MIU.
GW seem reluctant to make game changing decisions in the FAQ and reducing the wave serpent range would be gaming changing. Guessing but I suspect they would not change rules that would affect high sales of something and/or not everybody bothers with FAQs so they would be worried you'd have a bunch of people arguing over if FAQs are valid.
BrookM wrote: I wonder, will the White Dwarf also feature fluff or just the rules and eye candy?
The pre-existing issues with dwarf stuff in will be the best indicator.
My perception was they listed enough to game with, but not complete rules, a bit of fluff and some pics, but I haven't as much as picked a copy off a shelf, so others will be better placed to comment.
Looky Likey wrote: GW seem reluctant to make game changing decisions in the FAQ and reducing the wave serpent range would be gaming changing. Guessing but I suspect they would not change rules that would affect high sales of something and/or not everybody bothers with FAQs so they would be worried you'd have a bunch of people arguing over if FAQs are valid.
Giving the Baledrake a 360 flamer was pretty game changing for a FAQ. And didnt both Chaos Chosen and Dark Angels Company vets essentially get their entire entries rewrtten in FAQs?
Looky Likey wrote: GW seem reluctant to make game changing decisions in the FAQ and reducing the wave serpent range would be gaming changing. Guessing but I suspect they would not change rules that would affect high sales of something and/or not everybody bothers with FAQs so they would be worried you'd have a bunch of people arguing over if FAQs are valid.
Well perhaps one of the few things that people usually agree is that Official FAQs are just that - when they come out - that's the new rule
I am really hoping for a full Knight Household Codex with loads of new fluff leading to Skitarii models etc - I really want this to be true, but.................
I so hope they are not vehicles, but Monstrous Creatures instead.
If it's a vehicle, no matter how unlikely, one shot can destroy it (thanks to crappy GW vehicle rules). MC's? As long as they have more than two wounds, can't be one shot'ed.
Looking forward to these guys no matter what. The rules may suck, but GW churns out some sweet models.
Tamwulf wrote: I so hope they are not vehicles, but Monstrous Creatures instead.
If it's a vehicle, no matter how unlikely, one shot can destroy it (thanks to crappy GW vehicle rules). MC's? As long as they have more than two wounds, can't be one shot'ed.
Looking forward to these guys no matter what. The rules may suck, but GW churns out some sweet models.
Actually, thanks to the super heavy rules, the luckiest shot can only take 4 HPs off it, so it isn't as bad as all that, and remember that MCs don't have EW as a rule, so are just as vulnerable to one shot kills (albeit by less common weaponry)
That said, while I think they should be vehicles, I do echo the sentiment that to work better in the game as it is now, MC would be the way to go.
Kanluwen wrote: Do we have actual, 100% confirmation of those rules or is it still at that stage of "Soandso saw it, here's what he saw"?
Nah, that's the whole thing, I pointed out a few pages ago that this is just based off "A store manager somewhere got his stuff early and did this", everyone's taken it as official and gone on long diatribes about how they hate superheavies in 40k, fortifications in 40k, wave serpents(!) etc. It's silly, is what it is.
You're free to disbelieve all you want, but the amount of fake rumors of this magnitude is surprisingly small. Why would anyone bother to invent inaccurate rules, after all? Even trolls usually want to evoke a stronger emotional response than our nattering circle of commentators here has provided for them.
So in the past we've had entire threads of people wanted a plastic titan. In this case a mini titan. And now that they get one, maybe, all they do is bitch about its rules even though we dont know them. If this game bothers you that much go play Warmachine or Infinity. They have much better rules from what I hear.
Why would any reasonable person assume that a mini titan would not have access to D weapons or void shield?
MikeFox wrote: So in the past we've had entire threads of people wanted a plastic titan. In this case a mini titan. And now that they get one, maybe, all they do is bitch about its rules even though we dont know them. If this game bothers you that much go play Warmachine or Infinity. They have much better rules from what I hear.
Why would any reasonable person assume that a mini titan would not have access to D weapons or void shield?
You're free to disbelieve all you want, but the amount of fake rumors of this magnitude is surprisingly small. Why would anyone bother to invent inaccurate rules, after all? Even trolls usually want to evoke a stronger emotional response than our nattering circle of commentators here has provided for them.
Well, I believe it's happening, I'm just not buying the story about the store manager and the riptide proxies yet. For one thing, if this mythical store manager has the WD with the rules, why aren't there more image leaks?
MikeFox wrote: So in the past we've had entire threads of people wanted a plastic titan. In this case a mini titan. And now that they get one, maybe, all they do is bitch about its rules even though we dont know them. If this game bothers you that much go play Warmachine or Infinity. They have much better rules from what I hear.
Why would any reasonable person assume that a mini titan would not have access to D weapons or void shield?
See page 1..A knight is not a titan and based on current canon does not have access to either of those.. Thus a reasonable person who assumes that is more likely a reasonable person who hasn't read anything about what Knights are.
If they really wanted these things to sell like hotcakes, they'd make them MCs, usable by IG, Space Marines, and Sisters, that can go toe to toe with the Wraighknight and Riptide, then point-cost them similarly.
As it is, I don't see them selling very many. How many LoS have they sold?
(Superheavy walkers, not MCs, which is kind of a relief considering I've had enough MCs for a fething lifetime. Yes, this means they get Stomp, Hammer of Wrath, and all that bull.)
Paladin: 75 guardsmen cost, Errant is 74. Both are Stormraven AVs with +1 front armor and double the HP, with a 4+ invul on one facing that you choose during opponent's Shooting (but not CC or overwatch). Marine WS, BS, and I, Captain number of attacks with a strength D chainsword. Paladin is armed with a 2-shot battle cannon, and Errant has a +1S 36" large blast melta. Hilariously, the Errant has a single heavy stubber, while the Paladin has 2(!!).
So, the LGS owner did a crazy thing and proxied 5 of them using Riptides against a CSM player. Promptly proceeded to murder all 9 deep-striking oblits, all the cultists, and the suicide terminator squad (Let it be said, the ability to position the deflector shield *after* movement is finished is pretty damn powerful...). Only lost because of the Chaos Spawn and HQ hid on the second level of a ruin, and the 2 Heldrakes having ridiculously good luck on their Vector Strike rolls."
bu11etmagn3tt wrote: Glad an official imperial knight is coming out. dreamforge models can't be used in a GW store or in tournies or summer long campaigns (at GW)...
Can you even get an actual game in at many GW stores anyway?
bu11etmagn3tt wrote: Glad an official imperial knight is coming out. dreamforge models can't be used in a GW store or in tournies or summer long campaigns (at GW)...
Can you even get an actual game in at many GW stores anyway?
See page 1..A knight is not a titan and based on current canon does not have access to either of those..
Who says that Knights aren't titans? They certainly used to be. As far as I am aware the most recent Knight Household fluff was released with Titans Legions in the early 90's.
Knights didn't have void shields but they had their own specalised shield which seems to be alive and well if the rumoured rules are anything to go by.
You're free to disbelieve all you want, but the amount of fake rumors of this magnitude is surprisingly small. Why would anyone bother to invent inaccurate rules, after all? Even trolls usually want to evoke a stronger emotional response than our nattering circle of commentators here has provided for them.
Well, I believe it's happening, I'm just not buying the story about the store manager and the riptide proxies yet. For one thing, if this mythical store manager has the WD with the rules, why aren't there more image leaks?
Well, maybe that store manager is more concerned with running his store than obsessing about rumors on internet forums, and therefore is in no hurry to scan and post pics.
Of course, I'm skeptical of anything I read about upcoming releases these days, especially on certain blogs.
bu11etmagn3tt wrote: Glad an official imperial knight is coming out. dreamforge models can't be used in a GW store or in tournies or summer long campaigns (at GW)...
Can you even get an actual game in at many GW stores anyway?
God yes. I call my GW, and facebook, that I will be coming over in an hour, or at 4pm, and have 2k in 40k...who wants to game? Etc... Easy breazy! Tons of guys have riptides, wraithknights, lord of skulls.... so an Imp Knight will be welcomed in games at my GW!
See page 1..A knight is not a titan and based on current canon does not have access to either of those..
Who says that Knights aren't titans? They certainly used to be. Knights didn't have void shields but they had their own specalised shield which seems to be alive and well if the rumoured rules are anything to go by.
Fluffilogically speaking, they weren't part of the Titan Legions. So no.
Well, maybe that store manager is more concerned with running his store than obsessing about rumors on internet forums, and therefore is in no hurry to scan and post pics. Of course, I'm skeptical of anything I read about upcoming releases these days, especially on certain blogs.
Yet, he found time to run this proxy game. I mean, there are a thousand explanations, they're all hypothetical and they go both ways. It doesn't really matter very much; the point is, I'm not going to nail my colours to the mast over a one-paragraph story from 4chan. I'm not saying people are wrong to believe it, I'm saying I'm personally not putting my faith in the story. It's the kind of thing it's very easy to invent. Photographic evidence isn't.
As I remember they are referred to as small Titans in the Titan Legions book. I no longer have the books however, and it has been a long time since I read them, but I'm sure someone here does.
Either way no one claiming that they are not Titans has ever produced anything solid from GW to support their position.
Visually they obviously are very closely related designs, in fact Warhounds look more distinct from the rest of the Imperial titan designs than Paladins do.
It really doesn't matter but when people pass off supposition as fact I find it irritating.
azreal13 wrote: I've recently seen the rulebook entry from Space Marine, where there isn't a single reference to them being Titans, posted here.
Titan Legions is just a hint early for me, but even if they were referred to as Titans then, it was retconned over 20 years ago.
There were 2 Titan Legions games, Adeptus Titanicus from the 80's and Titan Legions from the mid 90's, the latter is the one I was referring to and is to my knowledge the most up to date GW derived fluff on Knights.
Let's wait for the white dwarf &/or codex that Imp Knights will be in to see if GW now refers to them as "titans" or not. Until then I'd say it is irrelevant to go back and forth.
Let's talk about more substantial rumors regarding imp knights...
If only people taking pictures would take larger ones, without flash...
I can't decide if I like it. Not enough detail, yet! Any hint if it will have monstrous creature stats (Dreadknight/Riptide) or vehicle stats like other walkers?
Palindrome wrote: As I remember they are referred to as small Titans in the Titan Legions book. I no longer have the books however, and it has been a long time since I read them, but I'm sure someone here does.
Either way no one claiming that they are not Titans has ever produced anything solid from GW to support their position.
Visually they obviously are very closely related designs, in fact Warhounds look more distinct from the rest of the Imperial titan designs than Paladins do.
It really doesn't matter but when people pass off supposition as fact I find it irritating.
Also you have it backwards. The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Anyone claiming that they are titans should be providing something solid to support their position.
Are they titans?-Not really, but its certainly the quickest and easiest way to describe and talk about them.
I'm hoping we get a variety of heads and bits for this, maybe some Knight household decor.
Just thinking about the anecdote about the store manager proxying 5 of these... it leaves me skeptical, first who'd let someone play 5 super heavies against them like this in a seemingly quick game; second the impression it leaves isn't much if any... so 1500pts of super heavy vehicles took out the majority of an army... isn't that why you can't really take that in an average game?
Not exactly a fan of these being super heavy. Maybe its just time to start using Epic rules with 40k scale armies?
xttz wrote: The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Anyone claiming that they are titans should be providing something solid to support their position.
Have a look in the fluff section. I never said that they were titans in game, I don't think that they were even super heavies.
xttz wrote: The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. Anyone claiming that they are titans should be providing something solid to support their position.
Have a look in the fluff section. I never said that they were titans in game, I don't think that they were even super heavies.
I posted the fluff section. Anything after that page details individual unit types (which goes on to describe them as 'Knight suits' IIRC).
Knights were classed as super-heavy walkers (which allowed them to assault both infantry and Titans), and had similar statlines to Baneblades etc.
So knights only had 1/4 of a page of fluff? I find that hard to believe.
Believe it.
I just grabbed a PDF of the mid-90s game you were referring to.
Turns out that was the page I'd mistaken for an entry from the Space Marine rulebook (same basic look and format that I remember.)
So no, there is not one reference to Knights being Titans, only marching to war alongside them. They are most frequently referred to as armoured suits.
Titans range from scout class (Warhound, Revenant) upwards, a knight is barely half that size.
All the original rules for Human Knights were in Adeptus Titanicus and Space Marine 1st ed were published and in White Dwarf 126 (UK) & White Dwarf 182 (UK) ...
"... A Knight is a small combat walker of the Adeptus Mechanicus that is one-man version of a Titan and is smaller than even the smallest class of true Titan..."
&
"...Knights normally deploy in squadrons comprised of several of these war machines..."
&
"...In addition to the Knight war machines"
finally,
"...and Knight Clans already present on some worlds discovered by the humans. The Humans began utilising combat walkers invented by the Eldar and referred to them as "Knights"."
Only EVER refered to as COMBAT WALKERS & WAR MACHINES, in addition, in several places where titans are mentioned with Knights, they do separate the two as different from eachother.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Doesn't GW use the word "titan" to describe any large walker? Eldar Titans are called titans, the Hierophant is called a bio-titan.
I'm trying to remember, but I think Epic 40k just referred to anything that was big as a titan.
That doesn't make the people saying Knights aren't Titans incorrect. It could be in imperial language the 'titan' is a walker classification that only applies to all variants of the Warhound, Reaver, Warlord and Emperor classes, and when the imperials met xenos races with walkers of similar size to the aforementioned four they naturally named them xenos titans. Frankly I don't understand why people can't bend their mind to consider the word 'knight' as a classification. You got mini-battlesuits like Space Marines and Terminators, you got Dreadnoughts, you got baby-carriers, you got Knights and you got Titans.
I still don't as I distinctly remember Knights being referred to as small titans, that is after all what they are. Incidentally both the 40K wiki and the 40k lexicanium agree with me.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: Doesn't GW use the word "titan" to describe any large walker? Eldar Titans are called titans, the Hierophant is called a bio-titan.
I'm trying to remember, but I think Epic 40k just referred to anything that was big as a titan.
Nope. Titans are a certain classification of Warmachine. The naming of things for most of the races are done from an Imperial viewpoint, so referring to the Eldar and Tyranids equivalents of Imperial Titans as Titans fits because it's how Imperial commanders would refer to them. Ork machines are still referred to by the Ork names because knowledge of the true names are more widespread.
Titans are designed for supporting large formations of troops and armor in addition to engaging Titan class enemies.
Knights are single man warmachines(in essence, the knight's mount) classed between Dreadnoughts and Titans designed as the military force for a Knight world. A knight is designed for a household to engage armies and marauding pirates unsupported. They're built by the Mechanicus and gifted to the households in exchange for swearing to support Mechanicus armies(even the Titan Legions) in military engagements when called upon.
Veritek83 wrote: So what's at stake with regard to Knights being or not being Titans?
Pedantry.
That's really it.
Pretty much.
It's just one of those things that doesn't go away, and what probably started as a minor irritation for a few people has become some sort of weird Sharks Vs Jets types scenario.
Therion wrote: Frankly I don't understand why people can't bend their mind to consider the word 'knight' as a classification. You got mini-battlesuits like Space Marines and Terminators, you got Dreadnoughts, you got baby-carriers, you got Knights and you got Titans.
Personally I don't understand why it matters in the first place. If someone wants to call them titans just let them call them titans, it's not like it makes any difference in game and it only makes a minute difference in the fluff ("oh sorry, you must be 3 feet taller to be called a titan" ).
I still don't as I distinctly remember Knights being referred to as small titans, that is after all what they are. Incidentally both the 40K wiki and the 40k lexicanium agree with me.
You're either wrong or misremembering, but, it really is time to move past that now, and stay on topic in here.
Anyone can, of course, feel free to start a new topic in on of the 40K Sub-Forums on the status of Knights in Imperial Armed Forces.
The early White Dwarf article (apparently UK126...US120) is the source of this Knight [not] Titan issue. The knight worlds supply knight titans and men to fight with the Titan Legions. There are around 6 or 7 full pages of background there, and it gets into things fairly well.
I dont have my magazines handy though to pull up the actual wording used, but they do call them Knight Titans several times.
The fluff no doubt will be more complete for those looking to incorporate them into their armies as well. This coming release will probably be a paragraph and several pages of pictures.
I still don't as I distinctly remember Knights being referred to as small titans, that is after all what they are. Incidentally both the 40K wiki and the 40k lexicanium agree with me.
You're either wrong or misremembering, but, it really is time to move past that now, and stay on topic in here.
Anyone can, of course, feel free to start a new topic in on of the 40K Sub-Forums on the status of Knights in Imperial Armed Forces.
Have people seriously missed the 2 or 3 "STAY ON TOPIC" warnings I've already posted in this thread?
NuggzTheNinja wrote: If they really wanted these things to sell like hotcakes, they'd make them MCs, usable by IG, Space Marines, and Sisters, that can go toe to toe with the Wraighknight and Riptide, then point-cost them similarly.
As it is, I don't see them selling very many. How many LoS have they sold?
I disagree,
It wouldn't seem appropriate for the knight to be a monstrous creature - they are giant machines of war, small titans (the superheavy designation fits). It will be more clear once we have images to compare to riptides/wraithknights.
Also the LoS isn't an overly great kit - it looks childish to many. No one was asking for them and they are tailored specifically to the tastes of CSM (more specifically khornate) fans. Knights on the other hand have been on people's wish lists for a long time, are prominant in the fluff, and are fairly neutral in their appearance. As such, they could easily blend into a players existing imperial army (or traitor legion if the rules allow for it).
Some potential confirmation and info from 40k Radio:
Imperial Knight Titan: 1 kit will make all the versions.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
Warhammer 40k 7th Edition (Yes it is called 7th ed) in May.
Astra Militarium (Imperial Guard):
Stormtroopers (plastic)
Bullgryns (old Ogryns)
Commissar Squads
New Larger Transport
Stormtroopers, Commissar Squads, and Bullgryns are Astra Auxilary. These units may be taken as "plug-ins" to other Imperial armies.
Catachans and Cadians are covered in the new codex. Catachans are not going to direct only.
Aedian wrote: Some potential confirmation and info from 40k Radio:
Imperial Knight Titan: 1 kit will make all the versions.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
Warhammer 40k 7th Edition (Yes it is called 7th ed) in May.
Astra Militarium (Imperial Guard):
Stormtroopers (plastic)
Bullgryns (old Ogryns)
Commissar Squads
New Larger Transport
Stormtroopers, Commissar Squads, and Bullgryns are Astra Auxilary. These units may be taken as "plug-ins" to other Imperial armies.
Catachans and Cadians are covered in the new codex. Catachans are not going to direct only.
Aedian wrote: Some potential confirmation and info from 40k Radio:
Imperial Knight Titan: 1 kit will make all the versions.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
Warhammer 40k 7th Edition (Yes it is called 7th ed) in May.
Astra Militarium (Imperial Guard):
Stormtroopers (plastic)
Bullgryns (old Ogryns)
Commissar Squads
New Larger Transport
Stormtroopers, Commissar Squads, and Bullgryns are Astra Auxilary. These units may be taken as "plug-ins" to other Imperial armies.
Catachans and Cadians are covered in the new codex. Catachans are not going to direct only.
Orks are in June.
7th in May? Mercenaries? Mechanicum?
Just a sec, I'll bring the city's salt supply.
Agreed. This is way outside of the wheel-house for GWIMO. Also, that would be 4 straight months of 40k. I know fantasy is faltering a little, but they won't put a stake in that heart yet.
insaniak wrote: Weekly releases now mean they don't have to devote the entire month to one release...
They dont have too, sure, but look at our first month. It was all dwarfs, GW tends to be a creature of habit. I would not be shocked at all if all the change to weekly release means is that they spread out what used to be once a month into a few weeks, like we have seen.
Next month is Knights. Followed by a whole month of IG. Continue the trend.
Imperial Knight Titan: 1 kit will make all the versions.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
Warhammer 40k 7th Edition (Yes it is called 7th ed) in May.
Astra Militarium (Imperial Guard):
Stormtroopers (plastic)
Bullgryns (old Ogryns)
Commissar Squads
New Larger Transport
Stormtroopers, Commissar Squads, and Bullgryns are Astra Auxilary. These units may be taken as "plug-ins" to other Imperial armies.
Catachans and Cadians are covered in the new codex. Catachans are not going to direct only.
Orks are in June.
Believed it up until now. Was drinking something and it suddenly turned into salt. The IG ok... but the Knight stuff... Maybe a model but... a codex for one model and suddenly calling it 7th edition
AdMech army list in the IK Codex? Wonder what kind of army it would be, if they pretty much only use currently released models. Would, or could, GW include the Forgeworld models in it?
- Wraithknight sized (bulkier)
- Slightly hunched Imperial appearance
- Head in chest
- Arm weapons mounted underslung from shoulders like the Reaver
- Comes with multiple arm weapons (you can mount 2)
a) Multi-barreled "gatling" styled weapon
b) "Grav" styled weapon
c) "Nova-cannon" styled weapon
d) Giant close combat weapon
- Optional quad-missile array
- Void Shield
- Many accessories, flags, Aquilas, Mechanicus cogs, minor defensive weapons etc...
- Priced as Lord of Skulls"
But then, 40K Radio have been doing so well, would they risk this sort of info without some degree of confidence?
Exactly. From any other source I would be highly skeptical. With their track record though, the rumors seem worth watching at least. If nothing else the rumors about Knights should be confirmed or disproved soon.
So last night at my FLGS, the manager said he hasn't heard word one about Knights and/or pre-ordering from anyone up the chain, and he's already read the next white dwarf and there's no mention of them in it....
The guard rumor blog had several folks (including me compiling the ideas together) mentioned they heard the new guard codex would contain not only imperial guard, but commissar, auxillary units, navy, imperial knights, and other entries that were to small to have their own dedicated codexes.
Could it be that the Astra Miliwhatever(btw, maybe not a name change for guard after all, but the name of anall encompassing codex) was named suchly, because this might be the direction of the next codex?
BTW, although I love the dreamforge TITAN (10.5" tall?), would it not be too big to pass off as an Imperial Knight (7.5" to 8" tall) ?
One of the rumors has been GW trying to integrate FW... If GW did a Knight and Mechanicum rulebook, it'd certainly push players to see GW/FW all as one big blob, instead of two.
bu11etmagn3tt wrote: The guard rumor blog had several folks mentioning the new guard codex would contain imperial guard, commissar, auxillary units, navy, imperial knights, and other entries that were to small to have their own dedicated codexes.
I believe that you were one of thoese people and I still find it highly unlikely on the grounds that it would absolutely butcher currently established fluff in that the IN isn't allowed to have any ground forced. The Ad Mech is also more than deserving of its own codex.
It has also been rumoured that the Knights will be usable by all Imperial armies and that the IG is getting some kind of mega tank which also weighs against a unified codex.
I'm glad they're finally coming out with a titan in plastic even if it is just the smallest type. Dreamforge definitely beat them to the punch but I believe it's good to have variety and choice.
aka_mythos wrote: One of the rumors has been GW trying to integrate FW... If GW did a Knight and Mechanicum rulebook, it'd certainly push players to see GW/FW all as one big blob, instead of two.
speaking of which, I saw my GW manager (friend of mine for years), and mentioned I am doing a DKOK army. He said wait to buy them in March. Why I asked? He said he would "...get store sales credit for the sale," and I would "...not need to worry about waiting for them to arrive..." (wink wink).
He hinted GW will be carrying FW instore once again....
Imperial Knight Titan: 1 kit will make all the versions.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
Warhammer 40k 7th Edition (Yes it is called 7th ed) in May.
Astra Militarium (Imperial Guard):
Stormtroopers (plastic)
Bullgryns (old Ogryns)
Commissar Squads New Larger Transport
Stormtroopers, Commissar Squads, and Bullgryns are Astra Auxilary. These units may be taken as "plug-ins" to other Imperial armies.
Catachans and Cadians are covered in the new codex. Catachans are not going to direct only.
Orks are in June.
Believed it up until now. Was drinking something and it suddenly turned into salt. The IG ok... but the Knight stuff... Maybe a model but... a codex for one model and suddenly calling it 7th edition
If underlined is true I will be seriously surprised and happy. Maybe we'll finally get a proper Commissar Cadet Training squad? That would be a good sign for GW perhaps showing some more of the unique aspects of the Guard. It could also mean that Commissars will now be bought in "squads" and then attached out similar those Space Wolf Sargent guys, which would be cool too, since you could put them where needed at the start of the game. Would make units like Conscripts a lot more useful if you know you can attach a regular commissar to them.
But that first half of the rumors just sounds really crazy. Unless that's actually part of the Astra Militarium codex and he's mistakenly thinking they're a separate thing.
Man that would be an insane codex. Parts representing Mechanicus, Imperial Guard, Auxiliary forces, Knights, and mercenary factions similar to what a Rogue Trader or Planetary Governor might use.
Gonna have to take these with a huge dose of salt though. Any chance we can get a link?
Erm, guys I think you've jumped the gun a bit. A more rational reading of the first block of rumours is that the Imperial Knights book includes three different army lists for using Knights, ie, Imperial Knights are your basic list, Mechanicus get a couple of higher-tech options, and Mercenaries are a variation that you can ally-in to Chaotic or Xenos forces because they have a different Allies chart.
That solution would be an attempt to satisfy everyone I assume; Imperial Knights for fans of the classic fluff, Mechanicus Knights modelled more on the Knights of Taranis from Mechanicum, and Mercenaries because, by God, GW are going to sell these things to everybody(at least in the minds of the management).
What size are those looking like then, similar to the Dreadknight or much bigger? I'd rather not be "that guy" bringing super-heavies with D-weapons to normal games so being able to counts-as these guys would be useful.
Of course, the make-or-break on these will be the price; at £50 direct-sale(so around £40 from an online retailer) I'd likely end up getting an entire Household, but if we're talking Khornemower pricetags here(£95-direct), GW can sit&spin.
BrookM wrote: Also, judging by the bling and decorative bits, my Leviathan is looking rather bare, this must be rectified once the time is nigh.
By the way, how big are Knight households?
I think the dream forge is nicer but I like the small details on the GW one, a merge of the 2 would be very cool.
I'm going to bling up my Leviathan with purity seals and banners once I get my hands on a GW Knight and whenever my Miniature Market order gets through.
Why do knights have heavy stubbers instead of just having heavy bolters or autocannons? I'm sure I'm being an old nerd, but that seems more appropriate. Plus the Ion Shield rule seems cumbersome.
AegisGrimm wrote: Why do knights have heavy stubbers instead of just having heavy bolters or autocannons? I'm sure I'm being an old nerd, but that seems more appropriate.
I suggested that, as they can fire each weapon at different targets, but must assault one of the ones they shot, they're there to allow division of power rather than inflict damage (ie shoot one unit with main gun, another with stubber, charge the unit you shot with that) if that isn't crediting GW with too much rules writing forethought.
Those look fething epic, especially the blue+gold one on the full page. I note that the rules don't include points for weapons, so there's going to have to be some kind of further rules release, possibly lending credibility to the Knight/Ad Mech codex.. PLEASE let it be true.
Anything in the region of £50 (huh, I can dream) and I'll have one of these in a heartbeat.
BrookM wrote: Also, judging by the bling and decorative bits, my Leviathan is looking rather bare, this must be rectified once the time is nigh.
By the way, how big are Knight households?
Not sure if specific numbers were ever given, they're just a particular aristocratic house; in terms of the new rules it seems 3-6. For myself, I'd get the full 6 if the price per-box is vaguely reasonable, but if it's LoS or even Stompa territory, I'll pass entirely and just maybe pick up one, to paint, on the cheap in a few months when they inevitably show up on ebay.
According to the FW website their Avatar is 4.7 inches tall, if that's to the top of the head-thingies, these look to be about 5.5 to 6 inches, which is absolutely spot-on. If the FW measurements only go to the eyes or the top of the head itself, it might be 7 inches which is a bit on the large side IMO.
Huh, the power field rule coming in after movement helps it out. I still don't know if I like either of the big gun options, but I guess a S: D melee weapon on a somewhat mobile platform isn't awful.
Paradigm wrote: Those look fething epic, especially the blue+gold one on the full page. I note that the rules don't include points for weapons, so there's going to have to be some kind of further rules release, possibly lending credibility to the Knight/Ad Mech codex.. PLEASE let it be true.
I'd assume that the different knights have fixed weapons so you don't need individual points as you get them set with the Knight you pick.
Yeah, I don't see how a Str "D" melee weapon is nearly as scary as ranged ones.
I'm just flabbergasted that GW made something that respects their own game's past. I assumed that Knights would bear little semblance to the originals, especially in name!
Darkseid wrote: Oh look who was wrong again! Larry fething Vela!
He was about 50/50. He got credit for all the easy ones and then failed on all the specifics.
Spoiler:
Knight Loadout - Feb 2014 via Larry Vela over on bols *** Knight Kit - Wraithknight sized (bulkier) TRUE - Slightly hunched Imperial appearance TRUE - Head in chest TRUE - Arm weapons mounted underslung from shoulders like the Reaver TRUE - Comes with multiple arm weapons (you can mount 2) TRUE a) Multi-barreled "gatling" styled weapon FALSE b) "Grav" styled weapon FALSE c) "Nova-cannon" styled weapon FALSE d) Giant close combat weapon TRUE
- Optional quad-missile array FALSE - Void Shield FALSE - Many accessories, flags, Aquilas, Mechanicus cogs, minor defensive weapons etc... TRUE - Priced as Lord of Skulls FALSE
We rate this set as medium-low reliability coming from a mix of known and unknown sources.
There has been talk of a plastic Knight somewhere in the GW design schedule for many months now. If you recall it was hyped to be the "big kit" to accompany the Space Marine, then IG release, but current rumor-chatter places it as the key release in March as a standalone kit that can be fielded via dataslate with a variety of armies. TRUE
Also, I would like to take this moment to publicly apologize to 40kradio for doubting them on this one. This makes that whole silly 7th edition rumor a lot more likely.
Bull0 wrote: What does Invincible Behemoth do? Is it in the Escalation book or Apoc?
Those models are lovely, I'm very excited about this now.
Invincible Behemoth: A Super-heavy vehicle is so large and strongly built that
weapons which degrade the armour of smaller vehicles will not effect it. Because of
this, any attack that says that the target model is destroyed, wrecked, Explodes! or is
otherwise removed from play inflicts D3 Hull Points of damage on a Super-heavy
vehicle instead.
In addition, any attacks or special abilities that permanently lower the Armour Values
of a target vehicle do not affect a Super-heavy vehicle. Note that attacks or abilities that
count the Armour Value as being lower, but do not actually change it, work normally.
Paradigm wrote: Those look fething epic, especially the blue+gold one on the full page. I note that the rules don't include points for weapons, so there's going to have to be some kind of further rules release, possibly lending credibility to the Knight/Ad Mech codex.. PLEASE let it be true.
I'd assume that the different knights have fixed weapons so you don't need individual points as you get them set with the Knight you pick.
You're quite right, I missed that in a frenzy of 'oh my god knights in plastic awesome!'. In that case, WD just made a sale, as I'm going to need those rules.
A question for anyone who regularly uses Escalation/Apoc: If I were to house-rule the S: D Mega-chainsword to just a S10 AP2 weapon, what kind of points-reduction would I be looking at? I'm not going to go and grab Escalation just to use one model, and I'd rather not force D weapons on my gaming group, so I'm looking to just edit these rules a little. Similarly, how many points would you say the Invincible Behemoth or whatever it's called is worth?
Basically, IF Knights weren't Super-heavy, with no S: D, what kind of points would be fair? Thanks.
Model looks frigging fantastic, rules are a bit meh. The weapons are a bit lackluster, really the only reason to take it is going to be the ability to wreck anything in close combat and survive return fire.
Depending on the price, I might just pick up one. That said, I didn't have a single apocalypse game in 2013 in memory and I don't see my trend ending soon.
Holy gak balls! That thing looks fething amazing. It's seriously above and beyond my expectations. The rules are terrible, but we knew that already, but the model is simply amazing. I haven't been that impressed with a GW model since... since I don't know!
I think these look bloody amazing, pleasantly surprised at GW for doing something that's a bit risky. Gonna support this with my wallet, well played GW
Let me Fix that:
HOLY GAK BALLS!!! And to Quote Rainbow Dash
OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH! OH MY GOSH!
Ok I am done with my Spamming
*lays on the ground twitching*
Regular posters will know I'm not one of Gw's biggest fans, bit I've always maintained I'll praise where I see cause to. Now I've had time to look, rather than faffing around putting pics in the OP etc...
Bravo GW, bravo.
I might even get two, or more, rather than magnetise, even in the knowledge they'll seldom see action.
They're... Knights. I don't know why I'm so surprised at this, but they've taken the Knight concept and just bigger-ized it. They haven't drastically changed what a Knight is, they haven't altered aesthetics, they didn't make it a smaller Warhound or something like that. They made a Knight. A real Knight.
I could even see myself thinking about one. Especially using earlier-than 6th edition rules, there are Vehicle Design Rules for that sort of thing. Probably make them cost MORE for a similar build, too. Considering we know the stats for a Knight, that would actually be an interesting experiment, because I can see VDR rules for everything on those knights, other than a different way to approximate the Ion Shield.
I can get 2 of these for the likely price of one of them.
With £15 left over, I imagine...
If they are priced at the same cost as a Lord of Skulls, you will be able to get one 28mm scale leviathan and a single arm swap option or around the same price. You might be able to get two 15mm Leviathans for that price, but they look to be significantly smaller than the Knight and have fewer options.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're... Knights. I don't know why I'm so surprised at this, but they've taken the Knight concept and just bigger-ized it. They haven't drastically changed what a Knight is, they haven't altered aesthetics, they didn't make it a smaller Warhound or something like that. They made a Knight. A real Knight.
I'm impressed.
Of course to balance out the lovely model, the Imperial Knights digital codex will include all-new fluff about the Knights being an organisation founded during the Great Crusade by ordinary humans who saw the Ultramarines fighting and were so struck by their obvious majesty and superiority and by the Genius that is Robert Goolieman, they now don huge armoured suits just so they can pay homage to those greatest of beings etc etc
Yodhrin wrote: Of course to balance out the lovely model, the Imperial Knights digital codex will include all-new fluff about the Knights being an organisation founded during the Great Crusade by ordinary humans who saw the Ultramarines fighting and were so struck by their obvious majesty and superiority and by the Genius that is Robert Goolieman, they now don huge armoured suits just so they can pay homage to those greatest of beings etc etc
Don't be silly. The Knights will be an Iron Hands invention, but they gave them all up as they strived harder and harder to be the most Codex Chapter ever.
I know its not completely concrete evidence but the manager from my local GW store mentioned, just the other day, that the guard/imperium could be getting something along the lines of a miniature titan, or stompa sized model, although he is also in the dark like the rest of us as GW dont tell thier employees much.
Compel wrote: I chose that specific link with great care... That's the 8.5" 28mm scale Leviathan on sale from Northstar Games for £40.00.
If it's 8.5", it'll be gigantic compared to the GW model; if it is on the 120mm oval base, they're only going to be a bit taller(but bulkier in the torso) than the Dreadknight.
Don't super heavy walkers move 12 a turn? Thats scary as hell. Three, 6 hull point a piece models with D-weapons that you can't shake/stun/weapon destroy them.
I'd really like to see a pic of a 15mm Dreamforge Knight next to a GW model. Compared to the WD pics, it would give a good idea of whether the scale was anywhere in the ballpark.
really seems like the GW Knight falls in between the 15mm and 28mm scaled Dreamforge stuff, although I think historically they should be more like the size of the 15mm ones.
Ok I've gotta say those pics are fantastic. Really does look like a great model, and pretty close to the look of the TL models. Not my army maybe but it will be great to see them on the tabletop nonetheless.
Sensible to clear them out before the GW release I guess.
They've actually been on sale there for some time. Northstar don't stock GW models at any rate anyhow. It's a great wee shop for sneaky little gems like these guys.
Little bit worried on the chainsword though...
seems to be in a pretty awkward position, doesn't seems like it can reach that far away and that it can be swung effectively...
I think, ranged weapon-wise, they are very under-powered.
Get them in CC & they'll do some serious damage but not to enough models. I assume they get to stomp as well? Otherwise a standard army should be able to cope with a whole army of the things.
Will be buying one though because they do look lovely.
Will swap out the guns for something a bit meatier & chaos it up some.
bubber wrote: I think, ranged weapon-wise, they are very under-powered.
Get them in CC & they'll do some serious damage but not to enough models. I assume they get to stomp as well? Otherwise a standard army should be able to cope with a whole army of the things.
Will be buying one though because they do look lovely.
Will swap out the guns for something a bit meatier & chaos it up some.
Which fits perfectly with their Epic incarnations.
They have a very 'knightly' flavour, with fighting in honourable one on one duels the sort of thing they would prioritize.
They can stomp, as well as a S10 HoW and tank shock, so they should account for themselves well against most targets. Don't forget hits with D weapons do multiple wounds, so they should still be able to do some damage to hordes, even with a low volume of attacks.
The more I compare pics of these, the Dreadknight, and the Wraithknight, the more I think that even GW couldn't have the bare-faced cheek to charge £70 for each of these new models.
It's only marginally bigger than the Dreadknight, most of that in the torso section. Given their change to raising prices with new releases, I could see them going to £40(DK's are £33), maybe £50 if they're throwing some GW bizarro-logic about it being "worth" more because it's a super heavy or somesuch, but £70? That would be the final confirmation, if any were needed, that GW have practically drowned in their own kool-aid.
H.B.M.C. wrote: They're... Knights. I don't know why I'm so surprised at this, but they've taken the Knight concept and just bigger-ized it. They haven't drastically changed what a Knight is, they haven't altered aesthetics, they didn't make it a smaller Warhound or something like that. They made a Knight. A real Knight.
I'm impressed.
Of course to balance out the lovely model, the Imperial Knights digital codex will include all-new fluff about the Knights being an organisation founded during the Great Crusade by ordinary humans who saw the Ultramarines fighting and were so struck by their obvious majesty and superiority and by the Genius that is Robert Goolieman, they now don huge armoured suits just so they can pay homage to those greatest of beings etc etc
@ H.B.M.C - I'm of exactly the same opinion - am very impressed, and VERY pleasantly surprised
@ Yodhrin - Stop, just stop, right there...you might give GW ideas !!!
Anyone remember what the classic 'company structure' was for knights (you know, like warhounds fight in pairs, reavers as singles or threes etc), and yes i know they arent titans. I'm so excited about this release, i would never have called it, I genuinely thought forgeworld would end up doing these guys (to the point where every time i go to an event with forgeworld there I ask them). Ant, theyre cool enough that if they get thier own book in print I will actually buy it (but not if its a silly overpriced download)
While I apreciate that GW made something nice to have that it's not a rehash of an old kit with even more skulls(TM) I'm not impressed by the Knights I really can't see why some of you are so eager to buy them. Must be that living in Japan has made me a jaded person.
On the other hand even if they are crap we got rules! We got legit rules on the weekly WD! This is shocking! Is GW going to keep up or just a mirage like the fliers of two years ago or the SoB dex last year?
Sirius42 wrote: Anyone remember what the classic 'company structure' was for knights (you know, like warhounds fight in pairs, reavers as singles or threes etc), and yes i know they arent titans. I'm so excited about this release, i would never have called it, I genuinely thought forgeworld would end up doing these guys (to the point where every time i go to an event with forgeworld there I ask them). Ant, theyre cool enough that if they get thier own book in print I will actually buy it (but not if its a silly overpriced download)
Groups of 3 x 3 with possible mixing of different types, led by a baron command unit.
Yodhrin wrote: The more I compare pics of these, the Dreadknight, and the Wraithknight, the more I think that even GW couldn't have the bare-faced cheek to charge £70 for each of these new models.
It's only marginally bigger than the Dreadknight, most of that in the torso section. Given their change to raising prices with new releases, I could see them going to £40(DK's are £33), maybe £50 if they're throwing some GW bizarro-logic about it being "worth" more because it's a super heavy or somesuch, but £70? That would be the final confirmation, if any were needed, that GW have practically drowned in their own kool-aid.
If I were a betting man, I would say at the very least £70.
Could easily see them pushing £80 or £90 for this, they know people will buy it regardless.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'd really like to see a pic of a 15mm Dreamforge Knight next to a GW model. Compared to the WD pics, it would give a good idea of whether the scale was anywhere in the ballpark.
really seems like the GW Knight falls in between the 15mm and 28mm scaled Dreamforge stuff, although I think historically they should be more like the size of the 15mm ones.
While I apreciate that GW made something nice to have that it's not a rehash of an old kit with even more skulls(TM) I'm not impressed by the Knights I really can't see why some of you are so eager to buy them. Must be that living in Japan has made me a jaded person.
Well, I am officially one of the old guys (well, on the lower end of the spectrum at 32) that loved them in Epic, and the idea of having some Epic models in 40K scale is just cool.
I like what I read in the new leaked pics on the OP.
The knight sounds very similar to that envisaged back in White Dwarf back in the wearly 90's (I have that issue somewhere).
The stock knight paladin have battlecannon and chainsword, a secondary weapon, orginally a multilaser but now a heavy stubber. I am ok with the change as multi lasers are considered main armament.
There is also a Knight Errant listed perhaps also a Seneschal and Lancer then?
The knight also has a shield and its directionally biased, though the new rules allow youi to change the directio the shield faces.
It's also crewed by a nobleman who 'fights alongside the forces of the Imperium' indicating the house members have a measure of choice and provide a portion of service rather than the usual cliche of perpetual serrvice until death.
Yodhrin wrote: The more I compare pics of these, the Dreadknight, and the Wraithknight, the more I think that even GW couldn't have the bare-faced cheek to charge £70 for each of these new models.
It's only marginally bigger than the Dreadknight, most of that in the torso section. Given their change to raising prices with new releases, I could see them going to £40(DK's are £33), maybe £50 if they're throwing some GW bizarro-logic about it being "worth" more because it's a super heavy or somesuch, but £70? That would be the final confirmation, if any were needed, that GW have practically drowned in their own kool-aid.
If I were a betting man, I would say at the very least £70.
Could easily see them pushing £80 or £90 for this, they know people will buy it regardless.
Will they though? In enough numbers for GW to make a justifiably large RoI? That's getting into the range of three times as much as the Dreadknight, for a model that isn't that much larger and which will have similar numbers of options on the sprues. Even I struggle to muster enough cynicism about people's willingness to be conned to believe they'd be truly stupid enough to get ripped off that badly. Especially when they can look at the shelves in their local GW store and see these sitting next to Dreadknights at £33 and Maulerfiends at £40.
Indeed, in terms of mass and options, the Knights appear closer to the Maulerfiend kits than anything else, so anything more than £40 would be irrationality on a truly industrial scale.
bu11etmagn3tt wrote: The guard rumor blog had several folks (including me compiling the ideas together) mentioned they heard the new guard codex would contain not only imperial guard, but commissar, auxillary units, navy, imperial knights, and other entries that were to small to have their own dedicated codexes.
Could it be that the Astra Miliwhatever(btw, maybe not a name change for guard after all, but the name of anall encompassing codex) was named suchly, because this might be the direction of the next codex?
BTW, although I love the dreamforge TITAN (10.5" tall?), would it not be too big to pass off as an Imperial Knight (7.5" to 8" tall) ?
streetsamurai wrote: I dont take seriously rumours from random unproven folks unless they're are some pics.
First, that mystery manager claims it's a Lord orf War. Then he plays a demo game with proxies spamming FIVE of them.
Fishy.
Who really knows these days? Dataslate units don't take take force organisation slots unless specified, and if the Knights are released as a form of a dataslate in the WD, it might not take any slots at all. It would explain people just incorrectly calling it a lord of war when they just mean it's a superheavy.
I stand corrected. From what I gather from the WD caps, You can field p to three Knights as allies for your army, or as a standalone army made of three to six of them.
I consider them expensive at 50 pounds especially if they go in multiples of three for fluffines. 70 or 90? Totally not worth it.
In a logical world GW would go for the cheaper price bracket that makes the most players to buy more than one, if prior decisions are taken into account Knights will be ridiculous overpriced and more is the pity as this was a good way to improve sales.
Perhaps a bundle at a discount? (yeah I know I'm such a joker )
People who have proven right on all else are saying bulkier Wraith knight, your comparison is off somewhere I think, or it's so long since I saw a daemon engine in a CSM lost that wasn't a hell chicken, it's bigger than I remember.
azreal13 wrote: People who have proven right on all else are saying bulkier Wraith knight, your comparison is off somewhere I think, or it's so long since I saw a daemon engine in a CSM lost that wasn't a hell chicken, it's bigger than I remember.
The above pictures are not to scale....
That's not where you were going with that were you?
Honestly I would have vastly preferred a Deathwatch Codex to a Legion of the Damned Codex, the former appeals to so many more people its not even funny, and offers so much more potential.
And now I'd bet that the LotD is going to the be last one, or maybe at best penultimate one.
azreal13 wrote: People who have proven right on all else are saying bulkier Wraith knight, your comparison is off somewhere I think, or it's so long since I saw a daemon engine in a CSM lost that wasn't a hell chicken, it's bigger than I remember.
The above pictures are not to scale....
That's not where you were going with that were you?
I believe he was trying to match the base sizes to try and provide a rough comparison yes. What other point could he be trying to make?
Sure, they'll be good in close combat, but any opponent dumb enough to let you get into close combat with him deserves what he gets.
To me, a great deal comes down to how much poseability the kit has. The two variations pictured appear to have their legs in the exact same positions. The Dreamforge Leviathan has amazing options for posing.
bubber wrote: I think, ranged weapon-wise, they are very under-powered.
Get them in CC & they'll do some serious damage but not to enough models. I assume they get to stomp as well? Otherwise a standard army should be able to cope with a whole army of the things.
Will be buying one though because they do look lovely.
Will swap out the guns for something a bit meatier & chaos it up some.
Which fits perfectly with their Epic incarnations.
They have a very 'knightly' flavour, with fighting in honourable one on one duels the sort of thing they would prioritize.
They can stomp, as well as a S10 HoW and tank shock, so they should account for themselves well against most targets. Don't forget hits with D weapons do multiple wounds, so they should still be able to do some damage to hordes, even with a low volume of attacks.
Just so you know, SD does that amount of wounds to the individual model (instead of wounding the model normally, the model takes that many wounds), the wounds DO NOT go into the wound pool.
Tannhauser42 wrote: Sure, they'll be good in close combat, but any opponent dumb enough to let you get into close combat with him deserves what he gets.
It all depends on finding the right combos for them. Stompas, for example, are nothing to write home about rules-wise, until you fill them with meks to make them nigh unkillable.
Off the top of my head, a Dark Angels PFG techmarine on a bike may help nullify the gaps on that shield long enough for them to reach CC unscathed. Or Inquisitors with servoskulls to block drop pods. Considering they can ally all Imperial armies, I'm sure there are a dozen ways to make Knights better than they look on paper.
SickSix wrote: This picture already shows scale. Why not just use it?
And looking at it again, they really aren't that tall...
Considering the avatar stands around 4.7 inchs tall, I'd peg that at 6" tops. If its more then the riptide then its highway robbery. Then again both the wraithknight and the riptide are way too expensive for what they are.
Nah, look at the pic of the red one above. It stands slightly taller than the second level of those CoD ruins, putting it at over 6 inches. So, probably somewhere between 6" and 7" is my guess.
Comparing to the other pic, it's worth noting that the FW Avatar stands at 4.7" tall.
mjl7atlas wrote: So do these knights have any ability to deal with airborne threats?
I doubt it. Other than the phantom titan who gets AA missiles no titans have AA capabilities. This actually makes tau really strong in Apoc because all of our big things are super-heavy flyers.
I really think these guys are tournament winners and meta-breaking. 12" move and ridiculously survivable with the super-heavy walker rules. Fairly priced being about as much as tooled up demon prince. Ion shield is incredible as you choose it during your opponents phase making even drop melta list hard to use. Best, of all, NOT a lord of war so no need to shoehorn in all of escalation which people have not responded well to.
Str.D close combat means bye bye screamer/seerstar (so take that LVO whiners).
The wraithknight matches up well with str.10 shooting and fast movement. I think this is more where we are heading.
Every competitive player is going to want one or more of these, I'm calling it now.
buddha wrote: I really think these guys are tournament winners and meta-breaking. 12" move and ridiculously survivable with the super-heavy walker rules. Fairly priced being about as much as tooled up demon prince. Ion shield is incredible as you choose it during your opponents phase making even drop melta list hard to use. Best, of all, NOT a lord of war so no need to shoehorn in all of escalation which people have not responded well to.
Str.D close combat means bye bye screamer/seerstar (so take that LVO whiners).
The wraithknight matches up well with str.10 shooting and fast movement. I think this is more where we are heading.
Every competitive player is going to want one or more of these, I'm calling it now.
As it stands right now, no competitive player will want one, because most tourneys are not allowing Escalation/super heavy vehicles.
Of course, once all the dust has settled on the rules, you might be right, but it will still need the TO community to decide to allow it.
buddha wrote: I really think these guys are tournament winners and meta-breaking. 12" move and ridiculously survivable with the super-heavy walker rules. Fairly priced being about as much as tooled up demon prince. Ion shield is incredible as you choose it during your opponents phase making even drop melta list hard to use.
Str.D close combat means bye bye screamer/seerstar (so take that LVO whiners).
The wraithknight matches up well with str.10 shooting and fast movement. I think this is more where we are heading.
Every competitive player is going to want one or more of these, I'm calling it now.
You have obviously never faced eldar phantom titans. Although I have to say, these things are WAY to cheap.
mjl7atlas wrote: So do these knights have any ability to deal with airborne threats?
I doubt it. Other than the phantom titan who gets AA missiles no titans have AA capabilities. This actually makes tau really strong in Apoc because all of our big things are super-heavy flyers.
I thought the Vulcan Mega-Bolter has AA capabilities?
Edit: Realized it's just because of numbers. 15 shots will roll some 6s...
buddha wrote: I really think these guys are tournament winners and meta-breaking. 12" move and ridiculously survivable with the super-heavy walker rules. Fairly priced being about as much as tooled up demon prince. Ion shield is incredible as you choose it during your opponents phase making even drop melta list hard to use. Best, of all, NOT a lord of war so no need to shoehorn in all of escalation which people have not responded well to.
Str.D close combat means bye bye screamer/seerstar (so take that LVO whiners).
The wraithknight matches up well with str.10 shooting and fast movement. I think this is more where we are heading.
Every competitive player is going to want one or more of these, I'm calling it now.
And what will we do with it? How can this win an event like the LVO when no tournament is going to allow D weapons?
buddha wrote: I really think these guys are tournament winners and meta-breaking. 12" move and ridiculously survivable with the super-heavy walker rules. Fairly priced being about as much as tooled up demon prince. Ion shield is incredible as you choose it during your opponents phase making even drop melta list hard to use.
Str.D close combat means bye bye screamer/seerstar (so take that LVO whiners).
The wraithknight matches up well with str.10 shooting and fast movement. I think this is more where we are heading.
Every competitive player is going to want one or more of these, I'm calling it now.
You have obviously never faced eldar phantom titans. Although I have to say, these things are WAY to cheap.
But that's exactly the point, escalation is almost never used in competitive tournies due to the phantom titan (almost singlehandidly) and other ranged Str.D. This is its own codex like the Inquisition dex and I believe much more likely to be used since Lord of War rules (and really escalation) are not needed.
Mark these posts, you can go back to them when everyone's wishing for the good old days of screamer/seerstar for how overpowered the Imperial Knights codex has ruined the game.
mjl7atlas wrote: So do these knights have any ability to deal with airborne threats?
I doubt it. Other than the phantom titan who gets AA missiles no titans have AA capabilities. This actually makes tau really strong in Apoc because all of our big things are super-heavy flyers.
I thought the Vulcan Mega-Bolter has AA capabilities?
I guess through the pure amount of dakka it puts out. But a lot of titan weapons are blast, large blast, apoc blast, ect, and nothing has skyfire.
Th vulcan is 60" S6 AP3 Heavy15
The phantom titan has a 48" S7 AP3 Heavy4 Skyfire, interceptor weapon.
That's a great addition to the conversation. I was replying to a comment specifically about tournament play, but thank you for trying. My point, since you missed it, what that this is ONLY good for non-competitive games.
Also, tournaments are fun. Quit trying to project your idea of a good time onto strangers.
These are very nice models. So I guess its regular GW fashion that the rules are like this.
Some of it I don't hold against GW. Simply put to make these work as something to wail on titans in a similar fashion to their epic selves, being super heavies is an expedient way. I also suspect they're super heavies to support the bigger weapon load out some of the other variants in epic have. Pointswise this seems priced like its rules were written by FW. I'd cluster this with the HH era rules for the Malcador, which is similar in price when upgraded... That is to say its disadvantage is simply that bigger and better things are more cost effective, but in the same breath it's an economy superheavy for those who don't want to spend the greater number points.
For those complaining about the Ion Shield being overpowered let me give you an innovative solution. It's called tactics! :p I know it's unheard with the rules as they are but at that price Im sure we can fit some meltas in two squads to flank that brute.
Why would it have the smash usr if it's close combat weapon is D? Why would it need relentless if it's a super heavy walker? Is this like them giving bel'akor move through cover all over again?
Remember when 40k and apoc were different games? Those were the days....
Seeing the WD pics they look kinda meh in my opinion. I may be cynical, but TBH super-heavy status and a D weapon makes this a non-release in some circles, especially mine. I am personally anti-escalation as are most of the local meta, especially since it involves a strength D weapon.
Looks damn cool but depending on the price i will buy one or not, on the other hand if the box allows you to built the 3 different variants it means a lot of parts! temptation!
I wonder why the designers went away from the powerfist on the original (Epic) Errant, and went for the "Reaper Chainsword" on both variants seen here? If you go back far enough, even the Paladin had the option for a powerfist...
Sprue design? Box size limitations?
Just a wild guess here, but maybe the "Codex" will have options for further upgrades on the Knights? (as opposed to the WD material we see here...)
ultimentra wrote: Seeing the WD pics they look kinda meh in my opinion. I may be cynical, but TBH super-heavy status and a D weapon makes this a non-release in some circles, especially mine. I am personally anti-escalation as are most of the local meta, especially since it involves a strength D weapon.
buddha wrote: I really think these guys are tournament winners and meta-breaking. 12" move and ridiculously survivable with the super-heavy walker rules. Fairly priced being about as much as tooled up demon prince. Ion shield is incredible as you choose it during your opponents phase making even drop melta list hard to use. Best, of all, NOT a lord of war so no need to shoehorn in all of escalation which people have not responded well to.
Str.D close combat means bye bye screamer/seerstar (so take that LVO whiners).
The wraithknight matches up well with str.10 shooting and fast movement. I think this is more where we are heading.
Every competitive player is going to want one or more of these, I'm calling it now.
As it stands right now, no competitive player will want one, because most tourneys are not allowing Escalation/super heavy vehicles.
Of course, once all the dust has settled on the rules, you might be right, but it will still need the TO community to decide to allow it.
Meh... why not? It's not invincible... Just about every codex has a unit that can bring it down.
Ie, a full 15x Loota squad can strip away enough hull points. (I've done that before against a Stompa).
Now, I will add that seeing NINE of these buggers at the same time? *shudder*
buddha wrote: I really think these guys are tournament winners and meta-breaking. 12" move and ridiculously survivable with the super-heavy walker rules. Fairly priced being about as much as tooled up demon prince. Ion shield is incredible as you choose it during your opponents phase making even drop melta list hard to use. Best, of all, NOT a lord of war so no need to shoehorn in all of escalation which people have not responded well to.
Str.D close combat means bye bye screamer/seerstar (so take that LVO whiners).
The wraithknight matches up well with str.10 shooting and fast movement. I think this is more where we are heading.
Every competitive player is going to want one or more of these, I'm calling it now.
I agree the whine about the rules is giving me flashbacks to the very intelligent 'Riptide isn't that good' and 'Wraithknight sucks' discussion a while back.
To me the only problem is that it's a Lord of War slot based on current information. It'll struggle heavily against the larger super-heavies, and you since you only get one slot you can't really just take multiple and compare the price performance. It's absolute dead weight against Revenants and Warhounds.
Against standard armies from the current "look at my death star" meta though it'll do well.
whembly wrote: Now, I will add that seeing NINE of these buggers at the same time? *shudder*
I'm not worried at all about that. Nine of them is well over 3000 points, which means we're playing Apocalypse and I'll have enough D-weapons to kill all nine of them in my first shooting phase.
whembly wrote: Now, I will add that seeing NINE of these buggers at the same time? *shudder*
I'm not worried at all about that. Nine of them is well over 3000 points, which means we're playing Apocalypse and I'll have enough D-weapons to kill all nine of them in my first shooting phase.
How do you manage that? I have a hard time figuring out a 3000p army that can split fire atleast one pretty much guaranteed D hit into 9 different targets in one turn. Four Warhounds are 2.88K and can only blow up 8.
Nevermind, I realised you were talking about over 3000 points Well yeah, all close-combat superheavies are pretty bad against D gunlines. 5 Warhounds vs 9.6 Knights is going to be a short battle. It's almost guaranteed to be over in one shooting phase.
SickSix wrote: This picture already shows scale. Why not just use it?
And looking at it again, they really aren't that tall...
From fw site
Eldar Avatar is the living incarnation of a god. When led by the Avatar the Eldar become filled with thoughts of bloodshed and its presence inspires them to great acts of valour. Complete resin model standing approximately 118mm (4.7 Inches) tall.
Model looks excellent, rules don't look terrible exactly. You're already rolling them out in a less than competitive environment pretty much by default, so I don't see any problem with them being less than astounding. They don't seem atrocious or anything to me though.
Miguelsan wrote: For those complaining about the Ion Shield being overpowered let me give you an innovative solution. It's called tactics! :p I know it's unheard with the rules as they are but at that price Im sure we can fit some meltas in two squads to flank that brute.
M.
Agreed the trick'll be flanking it. should be manageable. IF YOU'RE SMART.
Miguelsan wrote: For those complaining about the Ion Shield being overpowered let me give you an innovative solution. It's called tactics! :p I know it's unheard with the rules as they are but at that price Im sure we can fit some meltas in two squads to flank that brute.
M.
Agreed the trick'll be flanking it. should be manageable. IF YOU'RE SMART.
Not to accuse you both of jumping the gun, but, uh, has anyone actually complained about the Ion Shield?
Miguelsan wrote: For those complaining about the Ion Shield being overpowered let me give you an innovative solution. It's called tactics! :p I know it's unheard with the rules as they are but at that price Im sure we can fit some meltas in two squads to flank that brute.
M.
Agreed the trick'll be flanking it. should be manageable. IF YOU'RE SMART.
Not to accuse you both of jumping the gun, but, uh, has anyone actually complained about the Ion Shield?
not that I know of. I'm just already planning on how I'd kill the sucker with my space Marines.
It's worth noting the Ion shield also doesn't apply to melee, granted I'm not sure I'd want to melee with that thing, but if you could swarm it with a swarm of units capable of cracking it's armor, that'd be one way of getting around the Ion sheild.
truthfully I like the ion sheild. it addresses one of the big issues walkers have vs MCs
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So It's shorter than a Wraithknight, taller than a Riptide, and a bit bulkier than both.
I wish they hadn't made it a superheavy walker. I'd be much more inclined to buy one if I could actually use it in standard games.
Well, the current information from 40K Radio is that WD will have (or atleast announce for digital purchase) a supplement codex for the Knights.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
That would mean if someone is telling you that your Knight is illegal he's essentially banning a supplemental codex. It's the same as banning Farsight Enclaves or Iyanden, and I haven't seen anyone step that far yet.
Since this is the first supplemental codex that has strength D in it, and that the current rumour is that next summer's 40K revision is indeed called 7th edition (and will most likely integrate rules for D weapons and superheavies), I'd say the days are numbered for those who try to ban large stompy things.
On another note, this is also a return of the armoured company, as according to 40K radio, the Imperial Knights list is a primary detachment of 3 to 6 Knights.
Therion wrote: Since this is the first supplemental codex that has strength D in it, and that the current rumour is that next summer's 40K revision is indeed called 7th edition (and will most likely integrate rules for D weapons and superheavies), I'd say the days are numbered for those who try to ban large stompy things.
On another note, this is also a return of the armoured company, as according to 40K radio, the Imperial Knights list is a primary detachment of 3 to 6 Knights.
Oh, a lot of people's days are numbered, make no mistake.
And a big "Ha!" to the unreasonable skepticism and "it's clearly photoshopped!" crowds. Better wipe that egg off your faces, friends.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: So It's shorter than a Wraithknight, taller than a Riptide, and a bit bulkier than both.
I wish they hadn't made it a superheavy walker. I'd be much more inclined to buy one if I could actually use it in standard games.
Well, the current information from 40K Radio is that WD will have (or atleast announce for digital purchase) a supplement codex for the Knights.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
That would mean if someone is telling you that your Knight is illegal he's essentially banning a supplemental codex. It's the same as banning Farsight Enclaves or Iyanden, and I haven't seen anyone step that far yet.
Since this is the first supplemental codex that has strength D in it, and that the current rumour is that next summer's 40K revision is indeed called 7th edition (and will most likely integrate rules for D weapons and superheavies), I'd say the days are numbered for those who try to ban large stompy things.
On another note, this is also a return of the armoured company, as according to 40K radio, the Imperial Knights list is a primary detachment of 3 to 6 Knights.
TL;DR Knights are not Lords of War.
I will believe it when I see it. GW are crazy on lots of levels, but I still don't think they're THAT crazy... yet.
Therion wrote: Since this is the first supplemental codex that has strength D in it, and that the current rumour is that next summer's 40K revision is indeed called 7th edition (and will most likely integrate rules for D weapons and superheavies), I'd say the days are numbered for those who try to ban large stompy things.
On another note, this is also a return of the armoured company, as according to 40K radio, the Imperial Knights list is a primary detachment of 3 to 6 Knights.
Oh, a lot of people's days are numbered, make no mistake.
And a big "Ha!" to the unreasonable skepticism and "it's clearly photoshopped!" crowds. Better wipe that egg off your faces, friends.
For the last time, I always said I believed the photo but didn't believe the "This store manager at unnamed town got his WD early and did this legendary proxy game but we didn't take any pictures" anonymous 4chan post. I still don't feel wrong to have doubted that, because it was the kind of thing any troll could've farted out in an afternoon. There's no egg on my face, friend.
I'm also *still* doubting the legitimacy of this "knights codex" with an "admech list" in it. At best, that's a supplement with three lists in it, one of them being a vaguely-admech-flavoured knight house list that they've sexed up to "Admech list" to get clicks.
azreal13 wrote: People who have proven right on all else are saying bulkier Wraith knight, your comparison is off somewhere I think, or it's so long since I saw a daemon engine in a CSM lost that wasn't a hell chicken, it's bigger than I remember.
They're both on 120mm oval bases as far as I can tell, in the pic I posted the bases are at roughly equivalent size, oriented almost the same way, and are at almost the same angle +/- a couple of degrees. It's close enough. It isn't significantly larger than either the Riptide(-very- slightly more bulk in the torso, it may not even be that much taller now I look at some Riptide pics), or the Maulerfiend, and it's nothing close to the Wraithknight on which this looks to come up to roughly the waist.
azreal13 wrote: People who have proven right on all else are saying bulkier Wraith knight, your comparison is off somewhere I think, or it's so long since I saw a daemon engine in a CSM lost that wasn't a hell chicken, it's bigger than I remember.
They're both on 120mm oval bases as far as I can tell, in the pic I posted the bases are at roughly equivalent size, oriented almost the same way, and are at almost the same angle +/- a couple of degrees. It's close enough. It isn't significantly larger than either the Riptide(-very- slightly more bulk in the torso, it may not even be that much taller now I look at some Riptide pics), or the Maulerfiend, and it's nothing close to the Wraithknight on which this looks to come up to roughly the waist.
Well looking at the picture that compared it to an Avatar, the Avatar is 4.7" tall, so that makes the Knight about 6" tall. A Wraithknight is supposedly about 8 to 9" tall (don't own one to measure). So it probably comes up to the chest of the Wraithknight, about the same height as Riptide.
azreal13 wrote: People who have proven right on all else are saying bulkier Wraith knight, your comparison is off somewhere I think, or it's so long since I saw a daemon engine in a CSM lost that wasn't a hell chicken, it's bigger than I remember.
They're both on 120mm oval bases as far as I can tell, in the pic I posted the bases are at roughly equivalent size, oriented almost the same way, and are at almost the same angle +/- a couple of degrees. It's close enough. It isn't significantly larger than either the Riptide(-very- slightly more bulk in the torso, it may not even be that much taller now I look at some Riptide pics), or the Maulerfiend, and it's nothing close to the Wraithknight on which this looks to come up to roughly the waist.
Looks to me like they are photographed at significantly different vertical angles, so the knight is more foreshortened and has it's large shoulders slightly contracted by perspective.
I'm also not convinced that the price of a miniature should be dictated solely by it's size. Things like anticipated demand, production costs and simply how good it looks seem like they should play some part. Like Forge World models, this thing is even more of a luxury item than regular 40k minis.
I'm thoroughly impressed by the looks of those Knights. After the atrocity they comitted with the Dreadknight, I did not expect them to actually be able to design a proper looking imperial walker ever again. They look old school, but in a good way. They simply look 40k.
Perfect Organism wrote: I'm also not convinced that the price of a miniature should be dictated solely by it's size. Things like anticipated demand, production costs and simply how good it looks seem like they should play some part. Like Forge World models, this thing is even more of a luxury item than regular 40k minis.
Personally I am happier to pay FW prices because of the quality, at least for the infantry stuff. GW prices are usually a tough pill to swallow because most models are "meh, that's ok".
Therion wrote: That would mean if someone is telling you that your Knight is illegal he's essentially banning a supplemental codex. It's the same as banning Farsight Enclaves or Iyanden, and I haven't seen anyone step that far yet.
Being officially legal for standard games according to GW hasn't stopped TFGs from banning FW, and that's just like banning the Farsight supplement. If it has D-weapons on it there will be a significant number of people who refuse to allow it, regardless of what book it was published in.
Therion wrote: That would mean if someone is telling you that your Knight is illegal he's essentially banning a supplemental codex. It's the same as banning Farsight Enclaves or Iyanden, and I haven't seen anyone step that far yet.
Being officially legal for standard games according to GW hasn't stopped TFGs from banning FW, and that's just like banning the Farsight supplement. If it has D-weapons on it there will be a significant number of people who refuse to allow it, regardless of what book it was published in.
When a unit is as official as a Space Marine Tactical Squad I don't think we should focus or even care about TFGs fighting against the inevitable. Superheavies are going to be just as integral part of 40K as flyers, whether you or anyone likes it or not.
azreal13 wrote: People who have proven right on all else are saying bulkier Wraith knight, your comparison is off somewhere I think, or it's so long since I saw a daemon engine in a CSM lost that wasn't a hell chicken, it's bigger than I remember.
They're both on 120mm oval bases as far as I can tell, in the pic I posted the bases are at roughly equivalent size, oriented almost the same way, and are at almost the same angle +/- a couple of degrees. It's close enough. It isn't significantly larger than either the Riptide(-very- slightly more bulk in the torso, it may not even be that much taller now I look at some Riptide pics), or the Maulerfiend, and it's nothing close to the Wraithknight on which this looks to come up to roughly the waist.
Looks to me like they are photographed at significantly different vertical angles, so the knight is more foreshortened and has it's large shoulders slightly contracted by perspective.
I'm also not convinced that the price of a miniature should be dictated solely by it's size. Things like anticipated demand, production costs and simply how good it looks seem like they should play some part. Like Forge World models, this thing is even more of a luxury item than regular 40k minis.
We'll see soon enough, my estimation is that it isn't substantially bigger than a Riptide, in terms of height at least.
This model is not, as far as we know, any kind of "limited edition". It's made of the same material, will have similar levels of detail, similar numbers of parts, and is of similar mass to other cheaper kits produced by the same company. To address your points in reverse order: how good it looks is an aesthetic opinion, not an objective measure - some people really like the Maulerfiend, for example, while I would much rather have these Knights; given everything I listed in the sentence above, the production costs cannot be significantly different unless GW have suddenly decided to start paying their design staff a better wage and invested in slide-core tooling for their plastic kits, neither of which is particularly likely; they could have anticipated a great deal more demand with a reasonable price - at £50 direct-sale, these would have been around £40 from online retailers(even better if it is £40 direct-sale), and I would have bought an entire Household over the course of the year, but at £70-90 each? They can anticipate my middle finger.
As for Forgeworld models, the only thing they have in common is that they will sell comparatively few units(FW because of many factors, GW's big plastics because you don't need many), but GW's lower-unit-sales plastic kits already account for this in their inflated prices. FW use vacuum-cast resin, which is substantially more labour-intensive to produce than plastic kits, and resin kits are typically more detailed.
Your reasoning is like a bizarre pricing Moebius Strip of pricing logic; GW charge more because you're willing to pay more, you're willing to pay more because GW charge more and so the model is worth more because reasons, so GW charge more, so you pay more etc etc etc. An individual can place any value on an object they want, but for the price of a commercial product to be justifiable, it must have at least some relationship to the cost of production and the price of other directly comparable products from the same source, even if the product is a luxury good.
Having seen the DF Levi on Northstar for £40, I think I;ll get one of those instead. To be honest, the size isn't really an issue, as let's face it, you're not going to be hiding this thing easily, so a couple more inches can't hurt. I'll probably grimdark it up with some plasticard extras, like some extra plating on the armour and a scratch-build chainsword if I'm feeling ambitious.
I may well pick up a GW Knight at some point, as they do look seriously cool, but I've been after a Leviathan for ages but not had a use, now I do and on that kind of offer it's too cool to pass up.
Eventually, I'll hopefully expand to 3+, and I think that a small household of 2 GW Knights led by a Leviathan would look epic.
Looks pretty cool, but what I'm really interested in is the pricing. If it's priced as a Lord of Skulls (£95) that's a big hell no from me, no matter how much the fanbois can justify it.
Thud wrote: Looks pretty cool, but what I'm really interested in is the pricing. If it's priced as a Lord of Skulls (£95) that's a big hell no from me, no matter how much the fanbois can justify it.
Why? DreamForge Leviathans are £95 RRP, and everyone keeps gushing about how amazing a value that is. Warmachine Colossals are even more expensive, and aren't even plastic.
I think the rules look good enough, and I'm really glad it is not a MC. Dreadnoughts are walkers, Titans are walkers and Knights should be walkers as well. Being a superheavy gives it survivability it needs. That shield is really nice and promotes actually using tactics. And while D pieplates are an issue in normal games D CC weapon is really not.
Therion wrote: That would mean if someone is telling you that your Knight is illegal he's essentially banning a supplemental codex. It's the same as banning Farsight Enclaves or Iyanden, and I haven't seen anyone step that far yet.
Being officially legal for standard games according to GW hasn't stopped TFGs from banning FW, and that's just like banning the Farsight supplement. If it has D-weapons on it there will be a significant number of people who refuse to allow it, regardless of what book it was published in.
When a unit is as official as a Space Marine Tactical Squad I don't think we should focus or even care about TFGs fighting against the inevitable. Superheavies are going to be just as integral part of 40K as flyers, whether you or anyone likes it or not.
Unless enough people dislike it that it never gets mainstream support, just like FW currently doesn't have mainstream support.
Thud wrote: Looks pretty cool, but what I'm really interested in is the pricing. If it's priced as a Lord of Skulls (£95) that's a big hell no from me, no matter how much the fanbois can justify it.
Why? DreamForge Leviathans are £95 RRP, and everyone keeps gushing about how amazing a value that is. Warmachine Colossals are even more expensive, and aren't even plastic.
If by "everyone" you mean "a couple of people", and if you ignore that those people are either talking about the smaller 15mm Leviathan or the larger one being sold at a substantial discount, your comment is spot on. And who mentioned Warmachine? I know you're not overly fond of actually addressing the arguments other people have made, as opposed to the ones you think they've made, or arguing points they've never even mentioned, but at least make some effort.
Thud wrote: Looks pretty cool, but what I'm really interested in is the pricing. If it's priced as a Lord of Skulls (£95) that's a big hell no from me, no matter how much the fanbois can justify it.
Why? DreamForge Leviathans are £95 RRP, and everyone keeps gushing about how amazing a value that is. Warmachine Colossals are even more expensive, and aren't even plastic.
If by "everyone" you mean "a couple of people", and if you ignore that those people are either talking about the smaller 15mm Leviathan or the larger one being sold at a substantial discount, your comment is spot on. And who mentioned Warmachine? I know you're not overly fond of actually addressing the arguments other people have made, as opposed to the ones you think they've made, or arguing points they've never even mentioned, but at least make some effort.
If an etailer gives you discounts on the Leviathan, he might give you discount on the GW-kit too. Kinda strange to compare a discounted price to a RRP, no?
I don't need to make any "effort". I am simply giving my expression to a puzzling (and, at first glance, uninformative and misguided) comparison.
Thud wrote: Looks pretty cool, but what I'm really interested in is the pricing. If it's priced as a Lord of Skulls (£95) that's a big hell no from me, no matter how much the fanbois can justify it.
Why? DreamForge Leviathans are £95 RRP, and everyone keeps gushing about how amazing a value that is. Warmachine Colossals are even more expensive, and aren't even plastic.
If by "everyone" you mean "a couple of people", and if you ignore that those people are either talking about the smaller 15mm Leviathan or the larger one being sold at a substantial discount, your comment is spot on. And who mentioned Warmachine? I know you're not overly fond of actually addressing the arguments other people have made, as opposed to the ones you think they've made, or arguing points they've never even mentioned, but at least make some effort.
I didn't even make an argument. I'm not looking to convince anyone else, and in a couple of months I might have changed my mind, but £95 is more than I am willing to pay for it. Simple as that.
Padre wrote: I wonder why the designers went away from the powerfist on the original (Epic) Errant, and went for the "Reaper Chainsword" on both variants seen here? If you go back far enough, even the Paladin had the option for a powerfist...
Sprue design? Box size limitations?
Just a wild guess here, but maybe the "Codex" will have options for further upgrades on the Knights? (as opposed to the WD material we see here...)
I'll guess it's because a PF would not be able to reach any targets on the ground?
Crimson wrote: I think the rules look good enough, and I'm really glad it is not a MC. Dreadnoughts are walkers, Titans are walkers and Knights should be walkers as well. Being a superheavy gives it survivability it needs. That shield is really nice and promotes actually using tactics. And while D pieplates are an issue in normal games D CC weapon is really not.
If we're allowed to jump into conclusion, the Knights will finally shake the metagame up. I can't see any way for Jetseers or Screamerstars to get around a couple Knights with 12" moves being their kryptonite, especially seeing how resilient the Knights will be vs. the S6 and S7 that's spammed around. AV13, 6hp, 4+ save and being completely immune to everything except destroyed results will see to that. Riptides aren't going to do well in a shooting battle either, because the Knights will instakill them once they reach them, and while they're moving they'll still be taking out units here and there with the double battlecannons. Remember, full movement, shooting all weapons and split fire for the stubbers.
I'm also intrigued what kind of Knight armies you can make in 1.85K that can play vs all comers. They need some help vs. air so it'll be interesting to see who they can ally with. IG Infantry hiding behind behind an Aegis and a Quad Gun, supported by Sabre Defence Platforms, and 3 Knights? Necron Lord, 4x5 Warriors in Night Scythes and 3 Knights?
I love these models! May have to get one just to scavenge some bits... wondering how that admech looking head would look on a 15mm Mortis (which I'm hoping to use as a tall Ironclad). That's one thing GW kits are fantastic for- bits!
Or rather, hopefully buy that head from someone who uses the other one.
Padre wrote: I wonder why the designers went away from the powerfist on the original (Epic) Errant, and went for the "Reaper Chainsword" on both variants seen here? If you go back far enough, even the Paladin had the option for a powerfist...
Sprue design? Box size limitations?
Just a wild guess here, but maybe the "Codex" will have options for further upgrades on the Knights? (as opposed to the WD material we see here...)
I'll guess it's because a PF would not be able to reach any targets on the ground?
Fair point...
I was also thinking it might be because the Chainsword is the only CCW variant that isn't available with the Dreamforge Leviathans, maybe?
Or am I giving GW too much "credit" for planning ahead?
If my Thunderwolf Riding Lord has s10 ap2 i think its more than reasonable to give a knight S: D in melee. It counters indomitable screamerstars for example and wont have a big impact on tau or eldar. Tau shoot it to shreds and eldar just slip away before it assaults.
If you run your melee star into it without a plan you will suffer.
Dont really know if its a good thing for the meta ... time will tell and a lot of tears will be shed for sure.
Padre wrote: I wonder why the designers went away from the powerfist on the original (Epic) Errant, and went for the "Reaper Chainsword" on both variants seen here? If you go back far enough, even the Paladin had the option for a powerfist...
Sprue design? Box size limitations?
Just a wild guess here, but maybe the "Codex" will have options for further upgrades on the Knights? (as opposed to the WD material we see here...)
I'll guess it's because a PF would not be able to reach any targets on the ground?
Fair point...
I was also thinking it might be because the Chainsword is the only CCW variant that isn't available with the Dreamforge Leviathans, maybe?
Or am I giving GW too much "credit" for planning ahead?
Padre wrote: I wonder why the designers went away from the powerfist on the original (Epic) Errant, and went for the "Reaper Chainsword" on both variants seen here? If you go back far enough, even the Paladin had the option for a powerfist...
Sprue design? Box size limitations?
Just a wild guess here, but maybe the "Codex" will have options for further upgrades on the Knights? (as opposed to the WD material we see here...)
I'll guess it's because a PF would not be able to reach any targets on the ground?
Fair point...
I was also thinking it might be because the Chainsword is the only CCW variant that isn't available with the Dreamforge Leviathans, maybe?
Or am I giving GW too much "credit" for planning ahead?
Sure it is.
Spoiler:
And even if it's weren't, I doubt that would be a good reason to do a chainsaw. It's not like DreamForge could not just start making one, if they hadn't done so before
.
I don't have that much spare cash
right off, because that is so far beyond ridiculous that anyone who buys one at that price is just a mug.
