Can't remember the last time a GW model was so universally praised, and some of the users doing so would certainly not be considered fanboys, and rather than the odd poster trying to defend some piece of gak, we now have the occasional poster trying to find something to criticise.
Without confirmation on price, there's even a possibility it might represent good value in comparison to similar models!
Without confirmation on price, there's even a possibility it might represent good value in comparison to similar models!
Okay lets not go to far!
These seem like brilliant models so far from the pictures, so much so my iron warriors warsmith is feeling a slight flicker of joy, a feeling he hasn't felt in 10,000 years
I don't mind the model too much, would like to see options for a different melee weapon (like a big fist) or another gun instead. I'm more worried about what effect it'll have on the game, which is already in a sorry state to begin with.
Overall I like the look of the model. I might purchase one to support my Guard army while my DFG Crusader backs my GK and my DFG Mortis does the same for my vanilla Marines (the chapter symbol is scythes so the Mortis makes thematic sense there).
Hopefully GW doesn't price it outrageously and make me reconsider like they have a few times in the recent past.
mjl7atlas wrote: So do these knights have any ability to deal with airborne threats?
I doubt it. Other than the phantom titan who gets AA missiles no titans have AA capabilities. This actually makes tau really strong in Apoc because all of our big things are super-heavy flyers.
I thought the Vulcan Mega-Bolter has AA capabilities?
Edit: Realized it's just because of numbers. 15 shots will roll some 6s...
WayneTheGame wrote: Supposedly it's a full fledged Codex, so I'm curious what the rest of it's going to be.
I think the term “Codex” is being stretched thin these days. IIRC Codex:Inquisition got the full name and codex treatment, but was not what I would call a complete book. They need something in between full codex and one-unit dataslates.
The rules and points seem OK to me. I’d have to double check all the apoc rules it invokes, but nothing screams “broken” to me. Ranged D weapons on tough, fast platforms bother me. Melee ones not so much. If you get into close combat with a lumbering walker wielding a sword bigger then a tank, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get tuned into a red mist.
After looking up the Leviathan again, I'm reminded that although you can, indeed, get a 28mm scale one for £40, to get the same options the GW one will probably come with, you'll have to spend £22 x 2 or 3 (min) to have the same weapon options & thus the GW might actually be worth a £90 price tag.
FYI I am not a GW fanboy and have dismayed by the price inflation over the last few years (plastic monoposed characters now be more expensive than named character models or multi-pose general ones is my biggest gripe; also - yes I want a unit of wraiths but not ones that all look the same) but they're quality is always pretty high & I would be upset if they are priced a lot lower than £90.
Also this is one of my longest posts in a good long while so you better all listen to me because I'm right and you're all wrong. SO there.
WayneTheGame wrote: Supposedly it's a full fledged Codex, so I'm curious what the rest of it's going to be.
I think the term “Codex” is being stretched thin these days. IIRC Codex:Inquisition got the full name and codex treatment, but was not what I would call a complete book. They need something in between full codex and one-unit dataslates.
The rules and points seem OK to me. I’d have to double check all the apoc rules it invokes, but nothing screams “broken” to me. Ranged D weapons on tough, fast platforms bother me. Melee ones not so much. If you get into close combat with a lumbering walker wielding a sword bigger then a tank, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get tuned into a red mist.
"Codex: Assassins" from back in the day wants to know why you don't consider Codex: Inquisition a complete book.
WayneTheGame wrote: Supposedly it's a full fledged Codex, so I'm curious what the rest of it's going to be.
I think the term “Codex” is being stretched thin these days. IIRC Codex:Inquisition got the full name and codex treatment, but was not what I would call a complete book. They need something in between full codex and one-unit dataslates.
The rules and points seem OK to me. I’d have to double check all the apoc rules it invokes, but nothing screams “broken” to me. Ranged D weapons on tough, fast platforms bother me. Melee ones not so much. If you get into close combat with a lumbering walker wielding a sword bigger then a tank, you have nobody to blame but yourself if you get tuned into a red mist.
"Codex: Assassins" from back in the day wants to know why you don't consider Codex: Inquisition a complete book.
I totally forgot about that. And I didn’t consider that a full codex either. Of course, now that I’ve bad mouthed both the assassins and the inquisition my life expectancy is nill.
If you don’t have a separate unit (preferably 2-3+, but I’m flexible) in every FOC slot, you have no business calling yourself a codex. Obviously, GW’s opinion differs.
thenoobbomb wrote: So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?
It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.
Tau shoot it to shreds
With what? The standard Tau armies got 3 or 4 Riptides and a couple Skyrays or Broadsides as their entire firebase. How's any of that particularly scary to the Knights? High-yield pods need 6's to glance and have to deal with the 4+ shield whether they ignore cover or not. Skyray missiles need 5+. Riptide IA's need 5+ and have a pitiful amount of shots. HBC's on ion charge and with re-rolls to hit will still only get about one glance through per Riptide.
I'm not saying it's not a game but how exactly do the Tau shoot them to shreds? People seem to forget the incredible Tau firepower is very specific to this meta. They are actually quite bad at dealing with high armour. Eldar are even worse. Many entire Eldar armies rely on a single Wraithknight to do all the heavy lifting regarding high armour vehicles. They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.
bubber wrote: After looking up the Leviathan again, I'm reminded that although you can, indeed, get a 28mm scale one for £40, to get the same options the GW one will probably come with, you'll have to spend £22 x 2 or 3 (min) to have the same weapon options & thus the GW might actually be worth a £90 price tag.
FYI I am not a GW fanboy and have dismayed by the price inflation over the last few years (plastic monoposed characters now be more expensive than named character models or multi-pose general ones is my biggest gripe; also - yes I want a unit of wraiths but not ones that all look the same) but they're quality is always pretty high & I would be upset if they are priced a lot lower than £90.
Also this is one of my longest posts in a good long while so you better all listen to me because I'm right and you're all wrong. SO there.
It would upset you if GW sold something for somewhere close to its actual value -or even just close to the value of other similar kits they make- rather than whatever bizarro-world metric they normally use to decide this kit is worth £33 or £40 while that one is worth £90?
Agreed on the 3 knights making a cool army. I'm thinking that eventually, 3 Knights (1 DFG Levi and 2 Mortis or GW Knights) would be a good army to play, with a couple of IG squads for objectives (obviously modelled as Skitarii) might be pretty cool, fluffy and fun to play. The idea of 3 giant robots of death standing again a horde of Orks or Nids is too cool.
thenoobbomb wrote: So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?
It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.
Tau shoot it to shreds
With what? The standard Tau armies got 3 or 4 Riptides and a couple Skyrays or Broadsides as their entire firebase. How's any of that particularly scary to the Knights? High-yield pods need 6's to glance and have to deal with the 4+ shield whether they ignore cover or not. Skyray missiles need 5+. Riptide IA's need 5+ and have a pitiful amount of shots. HBC's on ion charge and with re-rolls to hit will still only get about one glance through per Riptide.
I'm not saying it's not a game but how exactly do the Tau shoot them to shreds? People seem to forget the incredible Tau firepower is very specific to this meta. They are actually quite bad at dealing with high armour. Eldar are even worse. Many entire Eldar armies rely on a single Wraithknight to do all the heavy lifting regarding high armour vehicles. Serpent Shield's S6 so you can throw that out of the window. They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.
I Don't own escalation but was under the impression that D-CCW's could only be used against MC's and vehicles meaning this hardly counters seer council which has HnR. I thought it was forced to use stomp attacks against such things which were rather lack luster. Again, I am not claiming anything just asking as I heard stomp attacks suck even if they were D.
Therion wrote: They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.
The Ion shield's 4++ doesn't work in close combat, it's clearly readable on the leaked pics. You still have to contend with a D-strenght CCW that probably swings at initiative 4, though.
thenoobbomb wrote: So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?
It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.
Tau shoot it to shreds
With what? The standard Tau armies got 3 or 4 Riptides and a couple Skyrays or Broadsides as their entire firebase. How's any of that particularly scary to the Knights? High-yield pods need 6's to glance and have to deal with the 4+ shield whether they ignore cover or not. Skyray missiles need 5+. Riptide IA's need 5+ and have a pitiful amount of shots. HBC's on ion charge and with re-rolls to hit will still only get about one glance through per Riptide.
I'm not saying it's not a game but how exactly do the Tau shoot them to shreds? People seem to forget the incredible Tau firepower is very specific to this meta. They are actually quite bad at dealing with high armour. Eldar are even worse. Many entire Eldar armies rely on a single Wraithknight to do all the heavy lifting regarding high armour vehicles. Serpent Shield's S6 so you can throw that out of the window. They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.
I Don't own escalation but was under the impression that D-CCW's could only be used against MC's and vehicles meaning this hardly counters seer council which has HnR. I thought it was forced to use stomp attacks against such things which were rather lack luster. Again, I am not claiming anything just asking as I heard stomp attacks suck even if they were D.
That's a fairly radical misinterpretation of the rules dude. D is just another strength value which has special rules outside of the standard strength vs toughness to wound roll, and has separate vehicle and non-vehicle effects.
while the rules are likelly auto include garbage, the size makes things easy as i will be using a paper cut out and be done with it, its so bing there is no need for presice modeling, yes you can almos alwayssee it and yes sometimes i get cover. No point in buying the model
I think that the best review of it so far is to echo the thought of, "It looks 40K".
That's not something i have felt from many of the recent releases. I could care less about the rules for it, I just want a model that looks like it belongs with all my other 40K models.
But seriously if it's not much bigger than the 15mm Leviathans, I will have a hard time choosing. The 15mm Leviathans are very competitively priced, and right out of the box can be stand-ins for at least the Errant variant, with a giant powersword that obviously can do as much damage as the chainsword and the gatling cannon that could just as easily evoke the image of "Rapid Fire Battlecannon".
Really hard choice, but kudos to GW for the design.
xxvaderxx wrote: while the rules are likelly auto include garbage, the size makes things easy as i will be using a paper cut out and be done with it, its so bing there is no need for presice modeling, yes you can almos alwayssee it and yes sometimes i get cover. No point in buying the model
Yeah, you can play the entire game with paper cut outs if you want. For me and everyone I know, we'll be buying the models
AegisGrimm wrote: I think that the best review of it so far is to echo the thought of, "It looks 40K".
Even better it looks "Epic".
I have to agree with HBMC. It's like they upsized the old Epic plastic Paladin, cut it apart for poseability, and added detail. It looks perfect and if the local area ever starts playing 40K(Montgomery is some sort of parallel universe where you can find games for everything BUT 40K, I love it) I'll probably pick up a couple at some point.
thenoobbomb wrote: So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?
It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.
Actually if you use the Knight Errant you can get 5 in a 1850 list.
thenoobbomb wrote: So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?
It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.
Actually if you use the Knight Errant you can get 5 in a 1850 list.
I think he meant without having glaring, easy to exploit weakness, not that it wouldn't fit point wise.
Therion wrote: They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.
The Ion shield's 4++ doesn't work in close combat, it's clearly readable on the leaked pics. You still have to contend with a D-strenght CCW that probably swings at initiative 4, though.
It also has S10 Hammer of Wrath, and as a super-heavy walker it will do D3 stomps in combat. Stomps are blast markers. First one has to touch the Knight, second one only has to touch the first blast marker, and so on. Roll of 1 for the blast does nothing, 2-5 is a S6 AP4 hit for all, and a 6 removes everything under it from play. Not so bad being a super-heavy walker afterall in comparison to being a puny monstrous creature?
thenoobbomb wrote: So, opinions on that you can do a Household as an army?
It's great stuff. You'll still need some anti-air and other fillers, so in normal sized games like 1.85K it'll be very hard to fit in a 4th Knight. Three will work though.
I like the way you typed 1.85K which is actually more characters than 1850.
Therion wrote: They also expect that their Seer Councils can just fight them in close combat. That's just not going to cut it vs Knights, since all of that dies in close combat and the 2 lances won't be enough against a superheavy with a 4+ shield.
The Ion shield's 4++ doesn't work in close combat, it's clearly readable on the leaked pics. You still have to contend with a D-strenght CCW that probably swings at initiative 4, though.
It also has S10 Hammer of Wrath, and as a super-heavy walker it will do D3 stomps in combat. Stomps are blast markers. First one has to touch the Knight, second one only has to touch the first blast marker, and so on. Roll of 1 for the blast does nothing, 2-5 is a S6 AP4 hit for all, and a 6 removes everything under it from play.
Subsequent blasts have to be within 3" of the first. Conceivably it can stomp things more than 12" away!
Not sure why people are thinking that Strength D CC attacks "kill everything".. It has 3 attacks, so it kills 2-3 per turn which is HARDLY very dangerous for 375 pts. Seer council could reliably kill this thing in CC pretty fast since as a walker it has no armor save and 6 wounds (HP) or less if it gets pen'd. Stomp can be great sure,b ut it can be useless more often than not especially against real CC units. 3 guys with melta bombs will wreck this thing very very fast. Again Strength D isn't very dangerous if its on a CC weapon.
I play Tau....I don't like this thing. I can't think of an easy way to kill it! It all comes back to that 4+ invulnerable save. I guess I'll have to try flanking them from 2 sides with melta battlesuits or something. Might be enough to make me actually start deep striking them again.
If I start seeing them then it will probably dramatically speed up my decision to buy that Tigershark AX-1-0. Hmmm...3 barracudas and one of those in the Lord of War slot supported by lots of deep striking battlesuits. Tau close air support cadre anyone?
dementedwombat wrote: I play Tau....I don't like this thing. I can't think of an easy way to kill it! It all comes back to that 4+ invulnerable save. I guess I'll have to try flanking them from 2 sides with melta battlesuits or something. Might be enough to make me actually start deep striking them again.
If I start seeing them then it will probably dramatically speed up my decision to buy that Tigershark AX-1-0. Hmmm...3 barracudas and one of those in the Lord of War slot supported by lots of deep striking battlesuits. Tau close air support cadre anyone?
Anyway, back on topic.
?? It's only armor 13 with 6 Hp that means it's the same as killing 2 necron vehicles generally, just because it's a super heavy doesn't mean it's difficult to kill..sheesh. Just spam missiles at it and bring it down with glances or yeah meltas work, or riptides or anything really..If you can't 2 necron vehicles as Tau then there is a serious issue going on.
The rules are decent, not OP, and I like the inclusion of a Str D CC weapon. I must say that the Leviathan is a "cooler" looking model and probably more "poseable" than the GW Knights.
As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?
Kirasu wrote: Not sure why people are thinking that Strength D CC attacks "kill everything".. It has 3 attacks, so it kills 2-3 per turn which is HARDLY very dangerous for 375 pts. Seer council could reliably kill this thing in CC pretty fast since as a walker it has no armor save and 6 wounds (HP) or less if it gets pen'd. Stomp can be great sure,b ut it can be useless more often than not especially against real CC units. 3 guys with melta bombs will wreck this thing very very fast. Again Strength D isn't very dangerous if its on a CC weapon.
If the enemy has units that can contend with 4 D attacks on the charge, a S10 HoW and D3 blast stomps that have the potential to auto-remove everything, what you do is just deploy your 3 Knights in the middle. They'll all charge the same unit, ensuring it's utter destruction. A Baron Jetseer Council is worth 1000 points fully loaded, so charging it with 3 Knights is adequate. As far as melta bombs on suicide squads go, I haven't seen those played in years, but your mileage may vary. Nobody is disputing the fact that you can't kill Knights in many ways. What I'm saying atleast is that they're a hard counter to death star units, and due to their versatility will probably be worth their points in many lists. Only time will tell what the optimal number to play will be.
Kosake wrote: So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*
We don't know that for sure, so don't get all up in a tizzy just yet.
Even if they were available for Chaos I wouldn't be thrilled. Bringing superheavies to the table seems just wrong to me outside of appocalypse. It can be fun for a round of "kill the superheavy" where one side must hunt the other's prize toy before it has a chance to rip them appart but otherwise I love my 40k centered around a couple of squads of infantry and the odd tank or some walkers to spice things up.
Kirasu wrote: Not sure why people are thinking that Strength D CC attacks "kill everything".. It has 3 attacks, so it kills 2-3 per turn which is HARDLY very dangerous for 375 pts. Seer council could reliably kill this thing in CC pretty fast since as a walker it has no armor save and 6 wounds (HP) or less if it gets pen'd. Stomp can be great sure,b ut it can be useless more often than not especially against real CC units. 3 guys with melta bombs will wreck this thing very very fast. Again Strength D isn't very dangerous if its on a CC weapon.
If the enemy has units that can contend with 4 D attacks on the charge, a S10 HoW and D3 blast stomps that have the potential to auto-remove everything, what you do is just deploy your 3 Knights in the middle. They'll all charge the same unit, ensuring it's utter destruction. A Baron Jetseer Council is worth 1000 points fully loaded, so charging it with 3 Knights is adequate. As far as melta bombs on suicide squads go, I haven't seen those played in years, but your mileage may vary. Nobody is disputing the fact that you can't kill Knights in many ways. What I'm saying atleast is that they're a hard counter to death star units, and due to their versatility will probably be worth their points in many lists. Only time will tell what the optimal number to play will be.
Haywire wyches will make a laugh of it IF you can get them into combat. Thanks for clearling up the stomp attacks also. As I said, I haven't had any reason to buy escalation yet.
Kosake wrote: So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*
We don't know that for sure, so don't get all up in a tizzy just yet.
Even if they were available for Chaos I wouldn't be thrilled. Bringing superheavies to the table seems just wrong to me outside of appocalypse. It can be fun for a round of "kill the superheavy" where one side must hunt the other's prize toy before it has a chance to rip them appart but otherwise I love my 40k centered around a couple of squads of infantry and the odd tank or some walkers to spice things up.
Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".
As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?
What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.
Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".
Another unjustified attack vs. super-heavies. A Knight Paladin has only slightly better survivability than 2 Predators on a Skyshield Landing Pad. 1000 points of Knights is no different from a 'oh my god I need to prepare myself for this in advance' perspective than 1000 points of flyers, 1000 points of heavy tanks, 1000 points of monstrous creatures or 1000 points of deathstar unit with 2++ re-rollables. All of the previous happens all the time. The terror the word super-heavy causes in people is beyond me.
The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.
I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.
As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?
What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.
Because clearly, that's not tournament legal!
Plus some people can be really lazy and just want something to complain about.
Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".
Another unjustified attack vs. superheavies. A Knight Paladin has only slightly better survivability than 2 Predators on a Skyshield Landing Pad. 1000 points of Knights is no different from a 'oh my god I need to prepare myself for this in advance' perspective than 1000 points of flyers, 1000 points of heavy tanks, 1000 points of monstrous creatures or 1000 points of deathstar unit with 2++ re-rollables. All of the previous happens all the time. The terror the word super-heavy causes in people is beyond me.
Clearly it's because superheavies like the Knight Paladin have the "Fear" special rule.
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.
That's the stupid terrible curse of GW releasing rules where 'D' weapons cost no extra points when they are, far and away, the best weapons in the game. That makes any Escalation unit without them utter garbage.
So the only real question is...are Knights Lords of War or not? The text from the WD seems to maybe indicate they're not, but the fact that they are a super-heavy vehicle and have 'D' weapons (things that only Lords of War are/get) kind of suggests that they are...will have to wait and see the full rules to be sure.
But really, since Knights are super-heavies and have 'D' CC weapons, I have a hard time believing that this will suddenly be the line that gets drawn in the sand where people can easily say that Knights are okay to include (because they don't have ranged 'D' weapons) while all other actual Lords of War are not allowed. It just makes no sense. GW is clearly going to keep pushing this direction, so to me it seems inevitable that either Knights are going to need to be banned in tournaments, or all Lords of War are going to have to be allowed.
And if you allow other Lords of War, then Knights are a terrible, terrible, terrible choice.
The only thing I think we can hope and pray for is for GW to release a '7th edition' as rumored that fundamentally changes the 'D' rule, calming it down and making it not such a bonkers-obvious choice over every weapon type (for no additional points cost). But given that they've *JUST* released Apocalypse and Escalation with the 'D' weapon rules in them, makes me doubt that this is a realistic possibility.
I see the chainsword seems to be on a poseable arm in that pic....am I hoping too much that the weapon options will be on interchangeable arms?
that would seriously make me stop breathing for a moment of GW allowed all three options to be made independently of each other in one kit with no parts expressly shared. Holy crap.
As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?
What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.
Yeah, I don't really WANT superheavies to shake up the meta, because by "shake up" it actually means "take heaps of anti-tank and play a game of roll dice at it and hope it goes away".
Another unjustified attack vs. super-heavies. A Knight Paladin has only slightly better survivability than 2 Predators on a Skyshield Landing Pad. 1000 points of Knights is no different from a 'oh my god I need to prepare myself for this in advance' perspective than 1000 points of flyers, 1000 points of heavy tanks, 1000 points of monstrous creatures or 1000 points of deathstar unit with 2++ re-rollables. All of the previous happens all the time. The terror the word super-heavy causes in people is beyond me.
I'll agree to this, if these Knights are the "power level" at which GW wants us to play escalation then okay.. These are acceptable because they're not all that scary compared to other units you can use for the price. Strength D ranged weapons are the issue, and these don't have them.
As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?
What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.
Because clearly, that's not tournament legal!
Except that it is. Are you saying that if you take a few Knights, convert chaos symbols and mutations on them, they're no longer legal to play? Are you saying that Imperial Guard that uses Traitor Guard models instead of Cadians isn't a legal Imperial Guard army? That's news to me. I know about a dozen people who have played at GTs with illegal armies then.
Plus some people can be really lazy and just want something to complain about.
That's more likely. I'm half-expecting a response "But I don't want to use Imperial rules. I want Knights in my army with Fateweaver etc".
Clearly it's because superheavies like the Knight Paladin have the "Fear" special rule.
azreal13 wrote: The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.
I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.
You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.
That's the stupid terrible curse of GW releasing rules where 'D' weapons cost no extra points when they are, far and away, the best weapons in the game. That makes any Escalation unit without them utter garbage.
So the only real question is...are Knights Lords of War or not? The text from the WD seems to maybe indicate they're not, but the fact that they are a super-heavy vehicle and have 'D' weapons (things that only Lords of War are/get) kind of suggests that they are...will have to wait and see the full rules to be sure.
But really, since Knights are super-heavies and have 'D' CC weapons, I have a hard time believing that this will suddenly be the line that gets drawn in the sand where people can easily say that Knights are okay to include (because they don't have ranged 'D' weapons) while all other actual Lords of War are not allowed. It just makes no sense. GW is clearly going to keep pushing this direction, so to me it seems inevitable that either Knights are going to need to be banned in tournaments, or all Lords of War are going to have to be allowed.
And if you allow other Lords of War, then Knights are a terrible, terrible, terrible choice.
The only thing I think we can hope and pray for is for GW to release a '7th edition' as rumored that fundamentally changes the 'D' rule, calming it down and making it not such a bonkers-obvious choice over every weapon type (for no additional points cost). But given that they've *JUST* released Apocalypse and Escalation with the 'D' weapon rules in them, makes me doubt that this is a realistic possibility.
It doesn't look like they'll be Lords Of War, it looks like up to 6 in a force will be legal. But only legal in the sense of they'll be supported by an expansion book, which is a whole 'nother can of worms.
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.
But you're forgetting that the Knights do have a role. They're not Lords of War. They're units from a supplement codex that can play on their own, take allies, or be taken as allies. So tournaments that don't allow Lords of War will still allow Knights. Tournaments that do allow Lords of War, won't see Knights, since the guys who like big guys will show up with the much more points efficient Warhounds then.
As far as Knights being super-heavy goes, I think it's the only vehicle type other than monstrous creature that is currently playable for these types of big guys. A simple walker would have been awful, and a monstrous creature would have been inconsistent to the Imperial line. As far as size goes it seems to be much smaller than people expect, so it will thematically fit in with Trygons, Riptides and Wraithknights just fine.
As a Chaos player, I'm trying to figure out how to fit one of these into my army, will it be part of an allied attachment (dark mechanicum?), or do you think that a Chaos version will be available via dataslate?
What I don't get is why don't you just use the Imperial rules and convert all of the models to Chaos? Tons of people worldwide have done this for years with Traitor Guard and Dark Mech armies.
Because clearly, that's not tournament legal!
Except that it is. Are you saying that if you take a few Knights, convert chaos symbols and mutations on them, they're no longer legal to play? Are you saying that Imperial Guard that uses Traitor Guard models instead of Cadians isn't a legal Imperial Guard army? That's news to me. I know about a dozen people who have played at GTs with illegal armies then.
That was a joke--hence the "".
I do think most people seem to be unaware that you can run a "counts as" force without a huge amount of issues, provided you're willing to put some sweat and elbow grease into it.
azreal13 wrote: The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.
I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.
You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).
Up to 3 blast markers, which can be placed within three inches of one another, which inflict auto hits on everything they cover on a 2+, against a unit that will be obliged to pile in and cluster up?
It will hurt. Certainly sufficiently to force a combat result with a fairly hefty negative modifier.
By the logic of the Knight rules Riptides should be priced closer to 300 points. Little difference in durability, slight downgrade in regards to the Thermal Cannon with the charged IA, and all you really lose after that is a slightly better invuln and the CC ability.
But, for little more they have Interceptor or a better invuln (FNP essentially makes their 5++ re-rollable) and the ability to JSJ, ignore night fighting, double range on the big gun by default.
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.
That's the stupid terrible curse of GW releasing rules where 'D' weapons cost no extra points when they are, far and away, the best weapons in the game. That makes any Escalation unit without them utter garbage.
So the only real question is...are Knights Lords of War or not? The text from the WD seems to maybe indicate they're not, but the fact that they are a super-heavy vehicle and have 'D' weapons (things that only Lords of War are/get) kind of suggests that they are...will have to wait and see the full rules to be sure.
But really, since Knights are super-heavies and have 'D' CC weapons, I have a hard time believing that this will suddenly be the line that gets drawn in the sand where people can easily say that Knights are okay to include (because they don't have ranged 'D' weapons) while all other actual Lords of War are not allowed. It just makes no sense. GW is clearly going to keep pushing this direction, so to me it seems inevitable that either Knights are going to need to be banned in tournaments, or all Lords of War are going to have to be allowed.
And if you allow other Lords of War, then Knights are a terrible, terrible, terrible choice.
The only thing I think we can hope and pray for is for GW to release a '7th edition' as rumored that fundamentally changes the 'D' rule, calming it down and making it not such a bonkers-obvious choice over every weapon type (for no additional points cost). But given that they've *JUST* released Apocalypse and Escalation with the 'D' weapon rules in them, makes me doubt that this is a realistic possibility.
It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.
Zweischneid wrote: It's fairly easy to draw the line. If it comes from Forge World, it's out. If it's a GW "main" kit, it's in.
OMG Zwei you're a genius! Why hasn't anyone thought of this before???
And why ban FW?
Ban?
You don't ban.
But if the problems Yak mention worry you, it's an obvious solution you could mutually agree on. It's also a very easy solution that TOs can add to any event with a single line of text that avoids long convoluted lists and exceptions.
Thud wrote: Looks pretty cool, but what I'm really interested in is the pricing. If it's priced as a Lord of Skulls (£95) that's a big hell no from me, no matter how much the fanbois can justify it.
Why? DreamForge Leviathans are £95 RRP, and everyone keeps gushing about how amazing a value that is. Warmachine Colossals are even more expensive, and aren't even plastic.
Aren't they bigger than the knights though and don't they have articulated joints which no GW kits so far have? People have been gushing about the DF leviathans for more than just the price.
Mr.Omega wrote: By the logic of the Knight rules Riptides should be priced closer to 300 points. Little difference in durability, slight downgrade in regards to the Thermal Cannon with the charged IA, and all you really lose after that is a slightly better invuln and the CC ability.
But, for little more they have Interceptor or a better invuln (FNP essentially makes their 5++ re-rollable) and the ability to JSJ, ignore night fighting, double range on the big gun by default.
2 Riptides with nothing but Ion Accelerators cost the same as one Knight Paladin. Riptides on overcharge shoot 2x S8 AP2 large blast and 10x S5 smart missiles. Paladin shoots 2x S8 AP3 and 6x S4 stubber shots. Riptides got 10 T6 wounds with a 2+, while the Paladin has 6 superheavy HPs on AV13 and 4+ save. There's no question that for the price the Riptides shoot better and survive more. That said, will 2 Riptides beat a Knight Paladin heads up? I actually kind of doubt it. I think after 6 turns one of the Riptides is dead and the other and the Knight still live. Additionally, the CC power of the Knight is vastly superior to that of 2 Riptides. It's superior to that of four Riptides, and because of that it's vulnerable to very different things, and counters a lot more things. Frankly I don't think Tau will do very well vs. the future armies that employ Knights either as primary detachment or as allies. You'll also have to take into consideration you can put more points into Knights than you can into Riptides, meaning you can swing the target saturation more in your favour. We also need to see if Knights are in fact scoring for the household army, which again is another perk worth a lot of points. I'd say a wargear item that would make a Riptide or a Wraithknight scoring would be worth almost 50 points just on its own, since it would mean you need to spend a lot less on garbage troops that never amount to anything.
dementedwombat wrote: I play Tau....I don't like this thing. I can't think of an easy way to kill it! It all comes back to that 4+ invulnerable save. I guess I'll have to try flanking them from 2 sides with melta battlesuits or something. Might be enough to make me actually start deep striking them again.
If I start seeing them then it will probably dramatically speed up my decision to buy that Tigershark AX-1-0. Hmmm...3 barracudas and one of those in the Lord of War slot supported by lots of deep striking battlesuits. Tau close air support cadre anyone?
Anyway, back on topic.
?? It's only armor 13 with 6 Hp that means it's the same as killing 2 necron vehicles generally, just because it's a super heavy doesn't mean it's difficult to kill..sheesh. Just spam missiles at it and bring it down with glances or yeah meltas work, or riptides or anything really..If you can't 2 necron vehicles as Tau then there is a serious issue going on.
It's only a 4+ invul :p that's pretty common
Mostly just because a combination of my local meta and the kind of army I like to play has bent my tau force selection very strangely compared to what the "standard" tau list looks like (i.e. I have no broadsides in my army and one riptide).
That and I'm not used to invulnerable saves on vehicles that aren't Dark Eldar (and as such burst into flames when you squint at them regardless).
People are so accustomed to this being a shooting edition that they forget that CC exists. The Knight will utterly wreck most units in CC, and it has decent shooting on top of that. However, you have to use the Knight aggressively to get its points worth of destruction; if you just use it like it was a Leman Russ on legs, it won't be that impressive.
As for GW Knight vs. Leviathan, I think the GW kit looks much better. Leviathan has those silly looking feet I can't stand, and overall the GW Knight is just a perfect piece of gothic loveliness. To me there is no contest and the price really doesn't affect that; I will get the model I like over the model I don't like, even if it ended up costing a bit more.
Crimson wrote: People are so accustomed to this being a shooting edition that they forget that CC exists. The Knight will utterly wreck most units in CC, and it has decent shooting on top of that. However, you have to use the Knight aggressively to get its points worth of destruction; if you just use it like it was a Leman Russ on legs, it won't be that impressive.
Quite.
Frankly, given it's speed and CC ability, if it isn't in assault by turn two, there needs to be a good reason you've decided against it, or a very clever opponent across from you.
Aw heck...I just remembered one of my opponents plays drop pods. 3 drop pods raining down on the table turn 1 and this monstrosity halfway across the board in my face... the mind recoils in horror.
It's ok, it'll come down to price for me. I prefer The Hoff knight pattern and since I have stuff to make a couple that I'll probably never get to i can't imagine I'll be buying many of these (none if they're £60+ after net discount)
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation.
I'm honestly struggling to work out how Nid players can deal with more than one of them. Their rear armour is still decent, and can be boosted with the movable invuln save making them hard to glance down. Rupture cannons are the only high-strength codex weapon that can reasonably stay out of charge range. Then of course, anything that does try to melee a Knight just melts. They even beat Scythed Hierodules 1vs1, and that's a melee-focused GC costing 1.5 times the points. I guess the only option is to out-shoot it by spending a crapload of points on a Barbed Hierodule or Harridan.
Of course this may have more to do with how bad Tyranids fare in Escalation/Apoc...
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation.
I'm honestly struggling to work out how Nid players can deal with more than one of them. Their rear armour is still decent, and can be boosted with the movable invuln save making them hard to glance down. Rupture cannons are the only high-strength codex weapon that can reasonably stay out of charge range. Then of course, anything that does try to melee a Knight just melts. They even beat Scythed Hierodules 1vs1, and that's a melee-focused GC costing 1.5 times the points. I guess the only option is to out-shoot it by spending a crapload of points on a Barbed Hierodule or Harridan.
Of course this may have more to do with how bad Tyranids fare in Escalation/Apoc...
JWBS wrote: It's ok, it'll come down to price for me. I prefer The Hoff knight pattern and since I have stuff to make a couple that I'll probably never get to i can't imagine I'll be buying many of these (none if they're £60+ after net discount)
I converted a few Hoff-esque Knights myself. While I that we have rules now, I'm not looking forward to scratchbuilding giant chainswords onto them.
EDIT: Actually, mine were more Hortwerth Pattern. Getting my modellers confused here :s
azreal13 wrote: The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.
I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.
You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).
Up to 3 blast markers, which can be placed within three inches of one another, which inflict auto hits on everything they cover on a 2+, against a unit that will be obliged to pile in and cluster up?
It will hurt. Certainly sufficiently to force a combat result with a fairly hefty negative modifier.
Ah, seriously
Piling in 10 In6 models won't cause you to pile up and in fact will allow you to skirt the things base, since I assume it can't stomp itself will get you one guy maybe 2 depending on wording under those templates. Hardly devastating to 12 point models. Even worse if stomp doesn't negate their dodge. Since you don't want to kill it in your own turn, killing it in theirs is all the better.
azreal13 wrote: The issue with Wyches against walkers is that it is an opposed WS roll, which instantly cuts the number of grenades that land down significantly.
I had my Soulgrinder (a fairly similar profile in a lot of ways to the knight) charged by 5 in my last game and with perfectly respectable rolls on both sides, it was the SG that was still standing. That said the ++ save and extra attack of the SG were a factor and one could send 10 Wyches after it, so if they managed to take it out with their first attack, they'd be golden, if the knight survived to swing back, they'd be in trouble, as I suspect the combined D attacks and stomps would be sufficient to kill 10.
You'd have to be lucky to kill 10 unless I'm missing something, maybe I am as I'm not all that familiar with escalation (kill 1 or 2 with the melee attacks and then kill a handful with stomp).
Up to 3 blast markers, which can be placed within three inches of one another, which inflict auto hits on everything they cover on a 2+, against a unit that will be obliged to pile in and cluster up?
It will hurt. Certainly sufficiently to force a combat result with a fairly hefty negative modifier.
Ah, seriously
Piling in 10 In6 models won't cause you to pile up and in fact will allow you to skirt the things base, since I assume it can't stomp itself will get you one guy maybe 2 depending on wording under those templates. Hardly devastating to 12 point models. Even worse if stomp doesn't negate their dodge. Since you don't want to kill it in your own turn, killing it in theirs is all the better.
Aren't you obliged to move into base to base contact or as close as possible by charges and subsequent pile in by the most direct route possible?
I'm not certain, but I don't think you get to just use it to put the models where you want, so no skirting around anything.
JWBS wrote: It's ok, it'll come down to price for me. I prefer The Hoff knight pattern and since I have stuff to make a couple that I'll probably never get to i can't imagine I'll be buying many of these (none if they're £60+ after net discount)
I converted a few Hoff-esque Knights myself. While I that we have rules now, I'm not looking forward to scratchbuilding giant chainswords onto them.
EDIT: Actually, mine were more Hortwerth Pattern. Getting my modellers confused here :s
This is the Hoff one, I like the back jointed legs and utilitarian look of it (less curvy than these new ones)
Mr.Omega wrote: By the logic of the Knight rules Riptides should be priced closer to 300 points. Little difference in durability, slight downgrade in regards to the Thermal Cannon with the charged IA, and all you really lose after that is a slightly better invuln and the CC ability.
But, for little more they have Interceptor or a better invuln (FNP essentially makes their 5++ re-rollable) and the ability to JSJ, ignore night fighting, double range on the big gun by default.
well we all know Riptides are undercosted - the only reasoin these can compete is the Superheavy rules makes them better walkers than normal ones.
Waiting with baited breath for the actual relase of these
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation.
I'm honestly struggling to work out how Nid players can deal with more than one of them. Their rear armour is still decent, and can be boosted with the movable invuln save making them hard to glance down. Rupture cannons are the only high-strength codex weapon that can reasonably stay out of charge range. Then of course, anything that does try to melee a Knight just melts. They even beat Scythed Hierodules 1vs1, and that's a melee-focused GC costing 1.5 times the points. I guess the only option is to out-shoot it by spending a crapload of points on a Barbed Hierodule or Harridan.
Of course this may have more to do with how bad Tyranids fare in Escalation/Apoc...
FW models have the "Terror" and "Wallet Strike(Critical)" special rules.
Dude. Preferred Enemy (wallet).
Yeah, it is a tough one for nids. Normally tanks can be dealt with via their sweet juicy rear armour and smaller walkers aren't nearly as imposing.
Maybe just feed it 15 termagaunts each turn so it can't do anything worth while for the game.
If you can get 3 melee equipped Carnifexes to charge it, that would probably be the end of it, at the expense of 1 or 2 carni's, so maybe tie it up with some gargoyle fodder and then setup a Carni brood to charge it.
It would be difficult if you didn't tailor your list though, I don't think I'd ever take 3 CC Carni's unless it was quite a large game.
@Azreal
Firstly their is the fleet unit assault move, then they move at I6 up to 3" we won't even bother with the 3" post combat as it won't ever come up. They can move how they choose in order to get into BtB. It's not hard at all to wrap that thing with wyches. Wyches still utterly rape expensive walkers.
Not saying Knights are bad, they are actually good IMO, just clarifying this match up is definitely not in the knights favor, especially when considering cost.
Edit: Now if they can swap those crappy HS for HF then they got much better IMO.
Dont fool yourselves, this guy will be auto include in all marines armies. Not because of its external balance against riptides and Knights, but because of its internal balance against the rest of the marine codexes and the meta. For marines this guy is very cheap for what it does which frees up points to get more essentially overcosted core troops and other shenaningans given the amount of ap 3 or better flying around. This guy takes about 36 misile hits to bring down, and it does pose a big threat if no dealt with (unlike the rest of the marine codex), it will work as a bullet magnet alloing the rest of you army to actually make use of that over costed 3+ save
xxvaderxx wrote: while the rules are likelly auto include garbage, the size makes things easy as i will be using a paper cut out and be done with it, its so bing there is no need for presice modeling, yes you can almos alwayssee it and yes sometimes i get cover. No point in buying the model
If you and I were buddys I'd let you do that once to try them out, but after that I'd tell you to get that paper trash off the table.
Red Corsair wrote: @Azreal
Firstly their is the fleet unit assault move, then they move at I6 up to 3" we won't even bother with the 3" post combat as it won't ever come up. They can move how they choose in order to get into BtB. It's not hard at all to wrap that thing with wyches. Wyches still utterly rape expensive walkers.
Not saying Knights are bad, they are actually good IMO, just clarifying this match up is definitely not in the knights favor, especially when considering cost.
Edit: Now if they can swap those crappy HS for HF then they got much better IMO.
Hmm, on rereading the charge and pile in rules, I've been playing them in a way that has been functionally fine, but not totally correctly, which might have not given me the best outcome in every game.
It is a "main kit, it's in the baneblade kit (that's one of the things you can build). I'm not sure what you are trying to say.
Not sure why the internet's so obsessed with D-Weapons. I never heard anyone having major issues with a Shadowsword; at least not of the kind Yak described.
Either way, drawing the line between D-Weapons/No-D-Weapons is messy, precisely because it could cut across different options for the same miniature.
Hence why Forge World/No-Forge-World is so much more elegant and manageable.
Maybe just feed it 15 termagaunts each turn so it can't do anything worth while for the game.
If you can get 3 melee equipped Carnifexes to charge it, that would probably be the end of it, at the expense of 1 or 2 carni's, so maybe tie it up with some gargoyle fodder and then setup a Carni brood to charge it.
It would be difficult if you didn't tailor your list though, I don't think I'd ever take 3 CC Carni's unless it was quite a large game.
The trouble is that Fexes would never be able allowed to charge it... they only move 6" compared to the Knight's 12". Without the initial charge and those free HoW hits, they'll struggle to do any damage as the Knight attacks first at I4 and kills 1-2 of them before they strike back.
Trygons are probably the best bet... they have Fleet, strike at I4, can better absorb the D3+1 wound Destroyer hits, and can do 5 Smash attacks on the charge at a better WS. It would still be a suicide attack, just a slightly more effective one.
lovely model. i'm a painter primarily, so i'll probably get one IF the price point is acceptable. i'm not wealthy! i'll let the gamers decide amongst themselves if these are any good!
Bull0 wrote: For the last time, I always said I believed the photo but didn't believe the "This store manager at unnamed town got his WD early and did this legendary proxy game but we didn't take any pictures" anonymous 4chan post. I still don't feel wrong to have doubted that, because it was the kind of thing any troll could've farted out in an afternoon. There's no egg on my face, friend.
Check your ego, compadre. Not everything is about you. Trust me, if you had bee the subject of that post, I would have clearly indicated it, but truth be told, your silly little argument did not merit consideration
Red Corsair wrote: @Azreal
Firstly their is the fleet unit assault move, then they move at I6 up to 3" we won't even bother with the 3" post combat as it won't ever come up. They can move how they choose in order to get into BtB. It's not hard at all to wrap that thing with wyches. Wyches still utterly rape expensive walkers.
Not saying Knights are bad, they are actually good IMO, just clarifying this match up is definitely not in the knights favor, especially when considering cost.
Edit: Now if they can swap those crappy HS for HF then they got much better IMO.
Hmm, on rereading the charge and pile in rules, I've been playing them in a way that has been functionally fine, but not totally correctly, which might have not given me the best outcome in every game.
Live and learn!
Hey man don't sweat it!
Every edition leaves clutter and makes it harder, for me at least. I have been in it since 2nd and at times you drudge up old rules and if your like me start combining them lol
Exactly that, every time I get asked a rules question because I too have been kicking around since RT, I always second guess as to whether I have the correct edition!
An awesome translation of the original designs into a more modern, detailed look. Only thing I'm not too keen on is the protruding shoulder-stubber... but that would be easily fixed by just shortening the barrel.
Interesting choice to let them be fielded as an army on their own. Expensive... but interesting.
An awesome translation of the original designs into a more modern, detailed look. Only thing I'm not too keen on is the protruding shoulder-stubber... but that would be easily fixed by just shortening the barrel.
Interesting choice to let them be fielded as an army on their own. Expensive... but interesting.
No, they're 40k scale. GW doesn't make Epic anymore
Joking aside, it's a really lovely modernization of the original designs and shows what GW is really capable of with model making. I'm looking forward to seeing the sculptors' credits in White Dwarf so I can see who was behind these.
Seeing these Knights I am struck by how battlefield images which were I recall so many years ago once created by Epic Scale Models in White Dwarf are now possible with 40k Scale as in this recent one from Forgeworld:
So, looking at the WD screenies, the Knights don't look all that scary.
In terms of resiliency, if you could deal with a Leman Russ tank in cover in 5E, these won't prove any more difficult, probably less so if you get to the side or rear. Firepower-wise, they feel undergunned for nearly 400pt units, you'd get more firepower out of a couple of kitted Leman Russ tanks sitting in cover for the same price. In CC, the D weapon is the only thing keeping most MC's from winning handily against them. I'd certainly breathe easier facing an army of 5 of these than a a Farsight allies list with 4 markerlight supported Riptides.
That said, for the first time in a couple of years, I am actually mightily impressed by a new non-forgeworld model kit, and will almost certainly pick at least one up.
Mr Morden wrote: Seeing these Knights I am struck by how battlefield images which were I recall so many years ago once created by Epic Scale Models in White Dwarf are now possible with 40k Scale as in this recent one from Forgeworld:
For me its all quite exciting
It is for me as well, but then I just think of all the battle reports for large scale games with a billion tanks parked 2 feet from each other and my brain vomits.
Are there 'skirmish' type scenarios that suit super heavies?
It is for me as well, but then I just think of all the battle reports for large scale games with a billion tanks parked 2 feet from each other and my brain vomits.
Are there 'skirmish' type scenarios that suit super heavies?
There is a scenario in the Escalation book pitting a Lord of War against an army.
Kosake wrote: So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*
well in fairness these things occupy pretty much the same niche as the lord of skulls. almost to the point of where I look forward to an escalation game pitting a pair of these puppies vs a lord of skulls.
Zweischneid wrote: Hence why Forge World/No-Forge-World is so much more elegant and manageable.
Sure, if your goal is to create an arbitrary and stupid ban that exists for the sole purpose of banning random stuff it's very elegant. It accomplishes a lot of banning with a simple statement, and its arbitrariness and stupidity are pretty much indisputable. On the other hand, if your goal is to do anything constructive with the game then no, it's not very elegant at all.
Kosake wrote: So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*
well in fairness these things occupy pretty much the same niche as the lord of skulls. almost to the point of where I look forward to an escalation game pitting a pair of these puppies vs a lord of skulls.
I play Tau where I just get a choice of fliers.... at least IoM and Chaos get plastic support.... I'll probably die of old age before Tau get a plastic superheavy and then it'll probably just be another flier....
Kosake wrote: So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*
well in fairness these things occupy pretty much the same niche as the lord of skulls. almost to the point of where I look forward to an escalation game pitting a pair of these puppies vs a lord of skulls.
I play Tau where I just get a choice of fliers.... at least IoM and Chaos get plastic support.... I'll probably die of old age before Tau get a plastic superheavy and then it'll probably just be another flier....
Well it does make them almost SD-proof (the only non-blast SD I know of are the heavy rail gun and the necron plylon).
Kosake wrote: So Imperium of Man gets another toy that Chaos miraculously has no access to. I am thrilled... *yawns*
well in fairness these things occupy pretty much the same niche as the lord of skulls. almost to the point of where I look forward to an escalation game pitting a pair of these puppies vs a lord of skulls.
Have not played escalation yet, but since the Warhammer 7th Edition is a real thing for May 2014, it is perfect timing since it will incorporate data slates, escalation, stronghold assault, and some tweaks on 6th. These are exciting times!
BTW - was there a rumor post on FW being sold in GW stores starting April 7th?
These will obviously sell like hotcakes because of how amazing they look regardless of how good they are.
But they aren't good, they're terrible if you're allowing other Lords of War into the equation. Because the fact that they don't appear to have any 'D' ranged weapons (and still cost 375 points) means that they are a terrible choice compared to even a Warhound (which is just about the same cost as two Knights) that is armed with two 'double-barreled tubo-laser destructors (four 'D' shots a turn)...that Warhound will absolutely decimate two Knights.
That's the stupid terrible curse of GW releasing rules where 'D' weapons cost no extra points when they are, far and away, the best weapons in the game. That makes any Escalation unit without them utter garbage.
So the only real question is...are Knights Lords of War or not? The text from the WD seems to maybe indicate they're not, but the fact that they are a super-heavy vehicle and have 'D' weapons (things that only Lords of War are/get) kind of suggests that they are...will have to wait and see the full rules to be sure.
But really, since Knights are super-heavies and have 'D' CC weapons, I have a hard time believing that this will suddenly be the line that gets drawn in the sand where people can easily say that Knights are okay to include (because they don't have ranged 'D' weapons) while all other actual Lords of War are not allowed. It just makes no sense. GW is clearly going to keep pushing this direction, so to me it seems inevitable that either Knights are going to need to be banned in tournaments, or all Lords of War are going to have to be allowed.
And if you allow other Lords of War, then Knights are a terrible, terrible, terrible choice.
The only thing I think we can hope and pray for is for GW to release a '7th edition' as rumored that fundamentally changes the 'D' rule, calming it down and making it not such a bonkers-obvious choice over every weapon type (for no additional points cost). But given that they've *JUST* released Apocalypse and Escalation with the 'D' weapon rules in them, makes me doubt that this is a realistic possibility.
Amen. Adding in super heavies to basic 40k was a terrible idea. Great, wonderful looking models, but terrible for the game.
An awesome translation of the original designs into a more modern, detailed look. Only thing I'm not too keen on is the protruding shoulder-stubber... but that would be easily fixed by just shortening the barrel.
Interesting choice to let them be fielded as an army on their own. Expensive... but interesting.
How expensive depends on the individual price; if they're priced even remotely rationally at £40(Maulerfiend) or £50(Riptide), they wouldn't actually be that expensive at army scale; with an online discount you could get a 1500 point force for, what, £128-£160? Depending on what you buy and where you get it from, adding some AA/utility Allies could take you to a 2000 point force for around £200, and considering how much something like a 2k Guard army will cost these days that seems almost reasonable.
Of course if the preorder rumour is true and GW actually think they can charge £95 for a slightly bigger Dreadknight, well
He did say, these are "the original knights". It was only after these 9 that GW expanded the line. Making the distinction between Paladins and Errant Knights, reinventing lancers, replacing wardens with crusaders and castellans, and introducing the baron knight.
Padre wrote: I wonder why the designers went away from the powerfist on the original (Epic) Errant, and went for the "Reaper Chainsword" on both variants seen here? If you go back far enough, even the Paladin had the option for a powerfist...
Sprue design? Box size limitations?
Just a wild guess here, but maybe the "Codex" will have options for further upgrades on the Knights? (as opposed to the WD material we see here...)
I'll guess it's because a PF would not be able to reach any targets on the ground?
Fair point...
I was also thinking it might be because the Chainsword is the only CCW variant that isn't available with the Dreamforge Leviathans, maybe?
Or am I giving GW too much "credit" for planning ahead?
There is a chainsaw arm for the Dreamforce models
There you go, I honestly didn't know that Mark had released one... (I kind of stopped following the Dreamforge updates after I got my Leviathan with the twin assault-cannon arms, as that was the configuration I was holding out for.)
Now, I'm wondering how interchangeable the DF parts and Knight parts will be...
He did say, these are "the original knights". It was only after these 9 that GW expanded the line. Making the distinction between Paladins and Errant Knights, reinventing lancers, replacing wardens with crusaders and castellans, and introducing the baron knight.
That was kind of what I was implying, perhaps I was too subtle!
RiTides wrote: Is there a likely preorder date for these? Sorry if I missed it!
proably next weekend
I might, depending on where on the shiny/ludicrous price curve these end up, actually order one of these for delivery to my local GW. I'm moving very shortly, so can't really risk mail delays to my current address.
But then, I should just be a grown up and wait until I'm in the new place...
Ah well, we'll see who wins between my inner ten year old and my adult self when they appear next to an add to cart button!
Maybe just feed it 15 termagaunts each turn so it can't do anything worth while for the game.
If you can get 3 melee equipped Carnifexes to charge it, that would probably be the end of it, at the expense of 1 or 2 carni's, so maybe tie it up with some gargoyle fodder and then setup a Carni brood to charge it.
It would be difficult if you didn't tailor your list though, I don't think I'd ever take 3 CC Carni's unless it was quite a large game.
The trouble is that Fexes would never be able allowed to charge it... they only move 6" compared to the Knight's 12". Without the initial charge and those free HoW hits, they'll struggle to do any damage as the Knight attacks first at I4 and kills 1-2 of them before they strike back.
Trygons are probably the best bet... they have Fleet, strike at I4, can better absorb the D3+1 wound Destroyer hits, and can do 5 Smash attacks on the charge at a better WS. It would still be a suicide attack, just a slightly more effective one.
Maybe. Even with 5 smash attacks on the charge, that's only about 2.5 HP on average, so 2 Trygons if you're lucky will do it in 1 phase, but only if you're a bit lucky. The Carnifexes with their 3D3 Hammer of Wrath at S9 would do most the damage, then if you have them Adrenal Glands, if 1 fex died (which is the average), you are left with 10 attacks at S10. So on average the fexes would be doing 7.8 HP on the charge, but it wouldn't be hard to get unlucky and have all 3 of your fexes die (405pts worth). It also wouldn't be hard to get unlucky and have your 2 Trygons die (380pts worth).
I think you'd have to use the cheap fearless units 'nids have in order to get a charge either way. So really it's not something you want to come up against as a Tyranid player.
I think if GW is going down the path of big heavy things everywhere, they really need to bring out a larger version of the Carnifex to deal with super heavies. Something 300-400pts with a few attacks and strength D.
the problem with infantry is it can be such a wide feild.
it can mean a 10 man guard squad, a 5 man elite titan hunter terminator squad, or a hoard of gaunts so big I could realisticly see even a titan having to hop around going "GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!"
That would be a cool unit, super-heavy-hunting-gaunts. They scuttle all over the super heavy and find the weak points. Each model gets 1 attack against super heavies and on a penetrating roll of 6, it causes a glance. Or maybe just give them rending vs super heavies.
I just love the mental image of a titan striding along happily and then just getting swallowed by a swarm of scuttling little critters, lol.
Looking at the ion shield rules, and a FAQ is required already.
Only because of players being pedantic, it says 4++ save on one facing, yet says against ALL HITS, so you could argue it works against ST D ranged attacks. Now, I kow what it says about D in escalation but.... The words say all hits.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Only because of players being pedantic, it says 4++ save on one facing, yet says against ALL HITS, so you could argue it works against ST D ranged attacks. Now, I kow what it says about D in escalation but.... The words say all hits.
And the D-weapon rules clearly say that you don't get a save or defensive ability of any kind against D-weapon hits unless it specifically states that the save/ability applies to D-weapons (such as Eldar titan holofields). There's no dispute here at all, knight shields do not work against D-weapon hits.
While I am blown away by the model, and its price. I am curious to see if it comes with any extra goodies... like a tech priest! (would become the hottest bit on ebay) I am also already putting it out there that if it does I will be looking to purchase *hint *hint
Pariah-Miniatures wrote: While I am blown away by the model, and its price. I am curious to see if it comes with any extra goodies... like a tech priest! (would become the hottest bit on ebay) I am also already putting it out there that if it does I will be looking to purchase *hint *hint
Forge World does a really nice tech priest model already. Worth taking a peek if you're interested in that sort of thing.
Pariah-Miniatures wrote: While I am blown away by the model, and its price. I am curious to see if it comes with any extra goodies... like a tech priest! (would become the hottest bit on ebay) I am also already putting it out there that if it does I will be looking to purchase *hint *hint
MWHistorian wrote: OK, I think I might have to get one of these and paint them up in my SOB order's colors. Laugh at my SOB army will ya? STOMP! STOMP!!
BrianDavion wrote: the problem with infantry is it can be such a wide feild.
it can mean a 10 man guard squad, a 5 man elite titan hunter terminator squad, or a hoard of gaunts so big I could realisticly see even a titan having to hop around going "GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!"
...wow, that last mental image is going to stay with me for a while.
BrianDavion wrote: the problem with infantry is it can be such a wide feild.
it can mean a 10 man guard squad, a 5 man elite titan hunter terminator squad, or a hoard of gaunts so big I could realisticly see even a titan having to hop around going "GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!"
...wow, that last mental image is going to stay with me for a while.
In the fluff Titans hate infantry - that's why they have Skitarii escorts. Its the same as tanks in built up areas - bad things happen to Titans on their own, even Imperator Titans - see Helsreach
Can anyone remember if Knight Households succumbed to Chaos in Epic - I would have thought at least some would have been on the Traitor side in the HH?
BrianDavion wrote: the problem with infantry is it can be such a wide feild.
it can mean a 10 man guard squad, a 5 man elite titan hunter terminator squad, or a hoard of gaunts so big I could realisticly see even a titan having to hop around going "GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!"
...wow, that last mental image is going to stay with me for a while.
In the fluff Titans hate infantry - that's why they have Skitarii escorts. Its the same as tanks in built up areas - bad things happen to Titans on their own, even Imperator Titans - see Helsreach
Titans, yes, but Knights are designed to engage infantry. Facing enemy armies with nothing but other Knights is their entire purpose.
BrianDavion wrote: the problem with infantry is it can be such a wide feild.
it can mean a 10 man guard squad, a 5 man elite titan hunter terminator squad, or a hoard of gaunts so big I could realisticly see even a titan having to hop around going "GET IT OFF! GET IT OFF!"
...wow, that last mental image is going to stay with me for a while.
In the fluff Titans hate infantry - that's why they have Skitarii escorts. Its the same as tanks in built up areas - bad things happen to Titans on their own, even Imperator Titans - see Helsreach
Can anyone remember if Knight Households succumbed to Chaos in Epic - I would have thought at least some would have been on the Traitor side in the HH?
Mechanicum had houses side with Horus (or at least side with tech priests that sided with Horus).
So, now I'm confused after having seen it next to a Trygon. Why are these going to be super-heavies and not MCs like everything else that size? There's just no rhyme or reason to the rulemaking is there?
agnosto wrote: So, now I'm confused after having seen it next to a Trygon. Why are these going to be super-heavies and not MCs like everything else that size? There's just no rhyme or reason to the rulemaking is there?
WFT GW! Orks iz still waiting! Give uz shiniez before yer bring out Moar noo stuff fer da hoomies!
Seriously, its getting beyond a joke now
Yes. The other day i looked over all the armies, ran through a checklist of past armies, and said to a couple customers "well, with the rumors of a new IG codex, that pretty much clears the way for orks. Nothing else they can do unless they make up something brand new, or someone gets two new codices before orks get one."
Not sure thats the right word but lime the dreadnaught it seems too ungainly for me. Im not sure why anyone would design such a machine.
You're free to like or dislike as you see fit of course, but you do understand that the top heavy, slightly hunched aesthetic has been a feature of all Imperial Walkers since literally forever?
To make a kit that was tall and lithe simply wouldn't have worked.
This won't make me popular here but I actually prefer the Warmachine model.
*ducks and runs*
If you're talking about Stormwall I agree. But not the other smaller warjacks. With the exception of the large models they've been doing lately I find the aesthetic of PP models to be far less appealing than 40k. Again, I would say I find the large PP kits more appealing than GWs, and I own 2 Wraithknights!
I also think the boys at GWHQ play and paint a lot more Warmahordes than we'd think. Not that they can admit those games even exist
OverwatchCNC wrote: I can't be the only one who sees the similarities right?
The Leviathan and Knight are more interesting for their differences. They actually have proper legs, instead of waddling around like some kind of lizard.
If you're talking about Stormwall I agree. But not the other smaller warjacks. With the exception of the large models they've been doing lately I find the aesthetic of PP models to be far less appealing than 40k. Again, I would say I find the large PP kits more appealing than GWs, and I own 2 Wraithknights!
I also think the boys at GWHQ play and paint a lot more Warmahordes than we'd think. Not that they can admit those games even exist
Yes, I was talking about Stormwall (I had to go look it up because I didn't know the name). The only thing I don't like about it are the shoulder cannons but some conversion work would sort that out.
Only because of players being pedantic, it says 4++ save on one facing, yet says against ALL HITS, so you could argue it works against ST D ranged attacks. Now, I kow what it says about D in escalation but.... The words say all hits.
Except D ignores the save. You get the 4++ , but then D just ignores the save
Ouze wrote: I can't wait to buy one of these, open the box, peek at the sprues, and then put it back in the box and store it unpainted for years.
For me it's more
Open box, get excited, glue together, feel remorse for gluing it together when I should have magnetised and kept in sections to make painting easier, push half finished project to one side (despite it is far more relevant to one of my armies than this,) begin painting, run out of steam or get painting paralysis because I can't decide on the colour of some tiny detail, stop painting anything for a few days/weeks while I "think about it," get new models,open box.....etc etc..
agnosto wrote: So, now I'm confused after having seen it next to a Trygon. Why are these going to be super-heavies and not MCs like everything else that size? There's just no rhyme or reason to the rulemaking is there?
No.
None at all.
There never was, never will be.
Will be the first time, the rules are credited to the GW management
That said, I don't fear strength D cc weapons that can't reach anything on the floor.
xxvaderxx wrote: which one do you think will look better the smaller or the larger leviathan, which one would be closer in size?
So far, judging by the pics available for the Knights, they'll be pretty much smack in between the 15mm and 28mm Dreamforge models. The 15mm would work if you make up the height difference with a taller base.
Of course if the preorder rumour is true and GW actually think they can charge £95 for a slightly bigger Dreadknight, well
Given how the current exchange rate has absolutely nothing to do with what we will have to pay for it, that would make it about NZ$400 here.
Go on, winge some more about how much it is going to cost.
Yes yes, poor you, GW rips off Oz/NZ. Seriously do you guys have a Batphone of Complaining +1 or something? Every single comment about GW's prices gets a "yeah well we pay eleventy-squillion dollars for [item] so neener neener!" response, guaranteed.
The fact that the price is even more ridiculous for you doesn't negate the fact that it's just a ridiculous price, in any currency, period.
xxvaderxx wrote: which one do you think will look better the smaller or the larger leviathan, which one would be closer in size?
So far, judging by the pics available for the Knights, they'll be pretty much smack in between the 15mm and 28mm Dreamforge models. The 15mm would work if you make up the height difference with a taller base.
On the other hand, you could use the bigger one as a wraithknight or riptide as well, so i duno.
I like how Yakface mentions that in comparison to a warhound the new knights are garbage. Yet you have hierodules which are double the cost Of these knights have worst ranged weapons and no D CC weapons.
wyomingfox wrote: I like how Yakface mentions that in comparison to a warhound the new knights are garbage. Yet you have hierodules which are double the cost Of these knights have worst ranged weapons and no D CC weapons.
Well it's pretty much universally agreed that Tyranids suck, so there's always that. Warhound on the other hand brings 1 long range large strength D pie plate for every 180 points on a decently survivable and mobile chassis. I think the Knight is really strong in a game where Lord of War slots are banned, but when they're not banned there's very few reasons to not spend on a Titan instead. The game with Titans is so completely different to a normal game. You don't want anything expensive unless it has firepower massive enough to one-shot a bunch of enemy units turn one, because most of everything will get one-shot by the enemy in return.
wyomingfox wrote: I like how Yakface mentions that in comparison to a warhound the new knights are garbage. Yet you have hierodules which are double the cost Of these knights have worst ranged weapons and no D CC weapons.
Well it's pretty much universally agreed that Tyranids suck, so there's always that. Warhound on the other hand brings 1 long range large strength D pie plate for every 180 points on a decently survivable and mobile chassis. I think the Knight is really strong in a game where Lord of War slots are banned, but when they're not banned there's very few reasons to not spend on a Titan instead. The game with Titans is so completely different to a normal game. You don't want anything expensive unless it has firepower massive enough to one-shot a bunch of enemy units turn one, because most of everything will get one-shot in return.
You're not thinking like a GW exec.
6 Knights and a Warhound (or Reaver, why not?!!!) as your LoW
wyomingfox wrote: I like how Yakface mentions that in comparison to a warhound the new knights are garbage. Yet you have hierodules which are double the cost Of these knights have worst ranged weapons and no D CC weapons.
Well it's pretty much universally agreed that Tyranids suck, so there's always that. Warhound on the other hand brings 1 long range large strength D pie plate for every 180 points on a decently survivable and mobile chassis. I think the Knight is really strong in a game where Lord of War slots are banned, but when they're not banned there's very few reasons to not spend on a Titan instead. The game with Titans is so completely different to a normal game. You don't want anything expensive unless it has firepower massive enough to one-shot a bunch of enemy units turn one, because most of everything will get one-shot in return.
You're not thinking like a GW exec.
6 Knights and a Warhound (or Reaver, why not?!!!) as your LoW
Well if you play 2000 points and want to play an army that resembles a Titan Legio in some distant way I guess you could run a Warhound and two Knights. It'll only cost you 1470 so you still got room for some AA and some void shield generators. If the Knights are scoring it wouldn't even be that bad. Probably not as competitive as possible, but it would look good that's for sure.
wyomingfox wrote: I like how Yakface mentions that in comparison to a warhound the new knights are garbage. Yet you have hierodules which are double the cost Of these knights have worst ranged weapons and no D CC weapons.
Well it's pretty much universally agreed that Tyranids suck, so there's always that. Warhound on the other hand brings 1 long range large strength D pie plate for every 180 points on a decently survivable and mobile chassis. I think the Knight is really strong in a game where Lord of War slots are banned, but when they're not banned there's very few reasons to not spend on a Titan instead. The game with Titans is so completely different to a normal game. You don't want anything expensive unless it has firepower massive enough to one-shot a bunch of enemy units turn one, because most of everything will get one-shot in return.
You're not thinking like a GW exec.
6 Knights and a Warhound (or Reaver, why not?!!!) as your LoW
Well if you play 2000 points and want to play an army that resembles a Titan Legio in some distant way I guess you could run a Warhound and two Knights. It'll only cost you 1470 so you still got room for some AA and some void shield generators. If the Knights are scoring it wouldn't even be that bad. Probably not as competitive as possible, but it would look good that's for sure.
Still thinking like a player! It doesn't matter how heavily you gak on the integrity of the fluff or the playability of the rules, what will generate the most cash?
wyomingfox wrote: I like how Yakface mentions that in comparison to a warhound the new knights are garbage. Yet you have hierodules which are double the cost Of these knights have worst ranged weapons and no D CC weapons.
Well it's pretty much universally agreed that Tyranids suck, so there's always that. Warhound on the other hand brings 1 long range large strength D pie plate for every 180 points on a decently survivable and mobile chassis. I think the Knight is really strong in a game where Lord of War slots are banned, but when they're not banned there's very few reasons to not spend on a Titan instead. The game with Titans is so completely different to a normal game. You don't want anything expensive unless it has firepower massive enough to one-shot a bunch of enemy units turn one, because most of everything will get one-shot in return.
You're not thinking like a GW exec.
6 Knights and a Warhound (or Reaver, why not?!!!) as your LoW
Well if you play 2000 points and want to play an army that resembles a Titan Legio in some distant way I guess you could run a Warhound and two Knights. It'll only cost you 1470 so you still got room for some AA and some void shield generators. If the Knights are scoring it wouldn't even be that bad. Probably not as competitive as possible, but it would look good that's for sure.
Still thinking like a player! It doesn't matter how heavily you gak on the integrity of the fluff or the playability of the rules, what will generate the most cash?
Well, it's actually GW's official policy to try to get gamers making rash impulse purchases. I talked with a major store's manager a long time about wanting more previews and more advance information so I could plan large army projects, and he explained to me how much more lucrative it is for them to just generate a 'heat' and 'excitement' for guys to spend all their money on products they might or might not even want or need. He also tried to claim that if he knows in advance what products are being released, once they're released he's already bored of them so he doesn't want them, so it's much better to just be randomly surprised something cool is released so he can buy it right away on the spot without blinking
Naturally, like everyone employed at GW, he hates the internet, and considers tournament players morons.
Still, as far as making cash goes, I think making an Imperial Knight is one of the better ways for everyone to benefit. To me it's one of the dream kits most guys couldn't in their wildest dreams believe would become a reality not so long ago.
agnosto wrote: So, now I'm confused after having seen it next to a Trygon. Why are these going to be super-heavies and not MCs like everything else that size? There's just no rhyme or reason to the rulemaking is there?
This time the rules actually make sense. It is a huge walking robot, so it uses super-heavy walker rules.
avedominusnox wrote: Do be know if these will be playable for chaos? Or are they for imperial usage only?
I don't think we've seen anything that confirms this one way or another. Though it's likely they'll be Imperial only, despite the previous fluff pointing to a number of households turning to Chaos during the HH when their Mechanicum leaders fell.
Of course, in a few months they'll put out another dataslate for the Chaos version, along with a new boxed knight. The only difference being that they'll throw a sprue of Chaos spikes in to make it different.
xxvaderxx wrote: which one do you think will look better the smaller or the larger leviathan, which one would be closer in size?
So far, judging by the pics available for the Knights, they'll be pretty much smack in between the 15mm and 28mm Dreamforge models. The 15mm would work if you make up the height difference with a taller base.
My theory, partly as an excuse to buy a 28mm Levi: It's a 7"+ tall model, there's no way you're hiding it, so a few extra inches won't matter. It'll just look more impressive. I'm also thinking that I'll throw in a couple of 15mm Mortisor GW Knights at some point, to run a Household with the 28mm Crusader as the Baron/leader. To be honest, I really don't think it matter that much unless you're playing competitively.
Therion wrote: Broadsides are bigger models than Space Marine Dreadnoughts, but I never seen anyone wonder why they're not vehicles.
No idea why, since broadsides make zero sense with a non vehicle statline. They're piloted machines, just like Dreads, Sentinels or heck, Titans.
The same reason why crisis suits are no walkers, they are less piloted machines are more armour. The controllerss even feel ghost pain when their suit is damaged. Also they did not want the broadside to be able to move and shoot with TL 72" S10 AP1 guns with the old codex.
Therion wrote: Broadsides are bigger models than Space Marine Dreadnoughts, but I never seen anyone wonder why they're not vehicles.
No idea why, since broadsides make zero sense with a non vehicle statline. They're piloted machines, just like Dreads, Sentinels or heck, Titans.
The same reason why crisis suits are no walkers, they are less piloted machines are more armour. The controllerss even feel ghost pain when their suit is damaged. Also they did not want the broadside to be able to move and shoot with TL 72" S10 AP1 guns with the old codex.
Dreads are mechanical extensions of a crippled Space Marine, hardwired into his nervous system. I understand mechanical reasoning for making something an MC (even if it's poor reasoning) but from the fiction level, there's no reason for any of the mechanical walkers to be MC. Just because we're used to GW's haphazard approach to game mechanics doesn't mean they make sense.
xxvaderxx wrote: which one do you think will look better the smaller or the larger leviathan, which one would be closer in size?
So far, judging by the pics available for the Knights, they'll be pretty much smack in between the 15mm and 28mm Dreamforge models. The 15mm would work if you make up the height difference with a taller base.
My theory, partly as an excuse to buy a 28mm Levi: It's a 7"+ tall model, there's no way you're hiding it, so a few extra inches won't matter. It'll just look more impressive. I'm also thinking that I'll throw in a couple of 15mm Mortisor GW Knights at some point, to run a Household with the 28mm Crusader as the Baron/leader. To be honest, I really don't think it matter that much unless you're playing competitively.
Out of curiosity, because I don't get in any sort of games let alone ones to know what TFG will attempt to pull, is there any issue with the model being bigger than the GW one provided that the base (which has CC implications) is the same diameter? It would seem like making it bigger makes it harder to hide (not that you're hiding a 7" thing on most boards anyway), which isn't exactly to your advantage.
However, I'm certain that there's something that I just don't see because I (thankfully) don't have enough experience with the hyper-competitive WAAC crowd.
xxvaderxx wrote: which one do you think will look better the smaller or the larger leviathan, which one would be closer in size?
So far, judging by the pics available for the Knights, they'll be pretty much smack in between the 15mm and 28mm Dreamforge models. The 15mm would work if you make up the height difference with a taller base.
My theory, partly as an excuse to buy a 28mm Levi: It's a 7"+ tall model, there's no way you're hiding it, so a few extra inches won't matter. It'll just look more impressive. I'm also thinking that I'll throw in a couple of 15mm Mortisor GW Knights at some point, to run a Household with the 28mm Crusader as the Baron/leader. To be honest, I really don't think it matter that much unless you're playing competitively.
Out of curiosity, because I don't get in any sort of games let alone ones to know what TFG will attempt to pull, is there any issue with the model being bigger than the GW one provided that the base (which has CC implications) is the same diameter? It would seem like making it bigger makes it harder to hide (not that you're hiding a 7" thing on most boards anyway), which isn't exactly to your advantage.
However, I'm certain that there's something that I just don't see because I (thankfully) don't have enough experience with the hyper-competitive WAAC crowd.
Not really, the shear bulk of both the oficial model and it better DF counterpart make trying to hide it on the battlefield a futile endebour. The gun size does not matter either, since its a walker range is measured from the base (like infantry) not the guns (not that it matters much anyway at 72 inch range). It seems that the DF is betwin 1 and 2 inches taller, keep in mind that the DF is fully posable as in feets, waist, legs and arms, you should not have much problem posing it dinamically and shaving an inch or 2
Base size is actually a wash, while it does offer certain advantages, there are normally drawbacks too, and you're right that extra height/bulk offers no upside at all.
I use some very large models alternate in my daemons army, and haven't ever had an issue, but then I don't play competitively.
I think we might be looking at a new base size for models in 40k. Look at this picture. It is basically a dead-on angle for the Knight. Now look at the base. If that were the large Oval base the Knight would be, at most, 4.7 inches tall. However, we know that it is taller than that due to comparison shots with the Mawlock and the Avatar. I'm thinking that this might be the same size base the LotR Mumak comes on.
Also, as for actual size, someone on Warseer noticed that in one picture it is standing next to a Cathedral scenery piece. That would make it roughly 160mm Tall. So, almost 6.5 inches. I've been waiting a LONG time to use my epicast Knight with official rules.
I am finding it amusing that with these pics out on the web, etc. NOTHING has been posted up on Tabletop Gaming News (and noticed a general dirth of GW coverage since CMON became the site's owners)
I've been waiting a LONG time to use my epicast Knight with official rules.
Cuda, would you PLEASE stop rubbing it in that you have an Epicast Knight!
As an "old resin" collector, I'd give my right arm to have gotten my hands on one of those...
You lucky sod!
Rubbing it in would include me stating that I got it 4 years ago on ebay when the guy selling it misspelled the word "Epicast" as Epic Cast. Really rubbing it in would be me saying I got it for $60.
xxvaderxx wrote: The gun size does not matter either, since its a walker range is measured from the base (like infantry) not the guns (not that it matters much anyway at 72 inch range).
This is incorrect. Walkers measure from their guns like every other vehicle. You just use the base for movement.
cuda1179 wrote: I think we might be looking at a new base size for models in 40k. Look at this picture. It is basically a dead-on angle for the Knight. Now look at the base. If that were the large Oval base the Knight would be, at most, 4.7 inches tall. However, we know that it is taller than that due to comparison shots with the Mawlock and the Avatar. I'm thinking that this might be the same size base the LotR Mumak comes on.
Also, as for actual size, someone on Warseer noticed that in one picture it is standing next to a Cathedral scenery piece. That would make it roughly 160mm Tall. So, almost 6.5 inches. I've been waiting a LONG time to use my epicast Knight with official rules.
You might be right about the Mumak-scale base, it measures 7" on the long axis, but I'm not sure. Bloody hell, this sort of thing annoys the buggery out of me, why can't they just preview models properly like a normal bloody company? Or if they insist on doing their "marketing" with terrible blurry "leaked" pictures of their own catalogue, they could at least choose to leak one of the pages which has basic bloody info on it like how big the models are.
cuda1179 wrote: I think we might be looking at a new base size for models in 40k. Look at this picture. It is basically a dead-on angle for the Knight. Now look at the base. If that were the large Oval base the Knight would be, at most, 4.7 inches tall. However, we know that it is taller than that due to comparison shots with the Mawlock and the Avatar. I'm thinking that this might be the same size base the LotR Mumak comes on.
Also, as for actual size, someone on Warseer noticed that in one picture it is standing next to a Cathedral scenery piece. That would make it roughly 160mm Tall. So, almost 6.5 inches. I've been waiting a LONG time to use my epicast Knight with official rules.
You might be right about the Mumak-scale base, it measures 7" on the long axis, but I'm not sure. Bloody hell, this sort of thing annoys the buggery out of me, why can't they just preview models properly like a normal bloody company? Or if they insist on doing their "marketing" with terrible blurry "leaked" pictures of their own catalogue, they could at least choose to leak one of the pages which has basic bloody info on it like how big the models are.
In fairness, there is a pretty clear image of it with a Fire Dragon right next to it, I know that isn't an exact measurement, but it does give a pretty good idea.
I've been waiting a LONG time to use my epicast Knight with official rules.
Cuda, would you PLEASE stop rubbing it in that you have an Epicast Knight!
As an "old resin" collector, I'd give my right arm to have gotten my hands on one of those...
You lucky sod!
Rubbing it in would include me stating that I got it 4 years ago on ebay when the guy selling it misspelled the word "Epicast" as Epic Cast. Really rubbing it in would be me saying I got it for $60.
I think I'll just go and sit in the corner, and cry in jealousy...
Yodhrin wrote: You might be right about the Mumak-scale base, it measures 7" on the long axis, but I'm not sure. Bloody hell, this sort of thing annoys the buggery out of me, why can't they just preview models properly like a normal bloody company? Or if they insist on doing their "marketing" with terrible blurry "leaked" pictures of their own catalogue, they could at least choose to leak one of the pages which has basic bloody info on it like how big the models are.
In fairness, there is a pretty clear image of it with a Fire Dragon right next to it, I know that isn't an exact measurement, but it does give a pretty good idea.
It's also a good shot in that a Fire Dragon is going to be the last thing a Knight sees in many, many games. :/
Rad. Totally rad. Totally rad. I wonder if it has a crew compartment. Has that been discussed? May have missed it between the post about how much GW sucks and the other post about how much GW sucks.
There was a neat story about a knight in the Imperial Truth Horus Heresy book.
I'm not so excited about having to face its rules in a tournament against that goofy looking DreamForge thing as a "counts as" nonsense.
If this doesn't blow your top off as GW hobbyist, I don't get what will do it. I do not know what it would take.
moonpie wrote: Rad. Totally rad. Totally rad. I wonder if it has a crew compartment. Has that been discussed? May have missed it between the post about how much GW sucks and the other post about how much GW sucks.
There was a neat story about a knight in the Imperial Truth Horus Heresy book.
I'm not so excited about having to face its rules in a tournament against that goofy looking DreamForge thing as a "counts as" nonsense.
If this doesn't blow your top off as GW hobbyist, I don't get what will do it. I do not know what it would take.
Well, the cockpit is supposed to be located at the height of the head, inside or in the torso right behind it. If the model actually has that, it'd jump from "awesome" to... uhm, whatever's better than awesome.
Btw, IMHO the Dreamforge Leviathan looks silly. I fully understand why people like its poseability, but the appearance, not so much. I wanna have the Knight... with spikes!
moonpie wrote: Rad. Totally rad. Totally rad. I wonder if it has a crew compartment. Has that been discussed? May have missed it between the post about how much GW sucks and the other post about how much GW sucks.
There was a neat story about a knight in the Imperial Truth Horus Heresy book.
I'm not so excited about having to face its rules in a tournament against that goofy looking DreamForge thing as a "counts as" nonsense.
If this doesn't blow your top off as GW hobbyist, I don't get what will do it. I do not know what it would take.
apparently that short story is also intended as something of a "precursor" to a upcoming horus heresy story too. If that was the case I'd not be suprised if it was announced for march too
Yeah, I like the dreamforge stuff, and it is great in it's own right, and before I got a glimpse of the knights I would say they're a good substitute.... But. compared to the pics of the knights, they don't belong at all any more, the knights look imperial, the dreamforge models don't, they're too perfect, whereas the knights are flawed, and that's exactly how they should be.
moonpie wrote: Rad. Totally rad. Totally rad. I wonder if it has a crew compartment. Has that been discussed? May have missed it between the post about how much GW sucks and the other post about how much GW sucks.
There was a neat story about a knight in the Imperial Truth Horus Heresy book.
I'm not so excited about having to face its rules in a tournament against that goofy looking DreamForge thing as a "counts as" nonsense.
If this doesn't blow your top off as GW hobbyist, I don't get what will do it. I do not know what it would take.
apparently that short story is also intended as something of a "precursor" to a upcoming horus heresy story too. If that was the case I'd not be suprised if it was announced for march too
Thank you my saviours. I was trying to remember where i'd read a short story about some Knights recently, but was coming up completely blank.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Yeah, I like the dreamforge stuff, and it is great in it's own right, and before I got a glimpse of the knights I would say they're a good substitute.... But. compared to the pics of the knights, they don't belong at all any more, the knights look imperial, the dreamforge models don't, they're too perfect, whereas the knights are flawed, and that's exactly how they should be.
There's a few things wrong with the dreamforge model (something wrong with almost every model). The mid section is just awful. Why isn't there any armour there? Why are two metal pillars and a small spine bit carrying the upper body that undoubtedly weighs more than ten thousand kilos? Secondly, it lacks detail. All the surfaces are smooth and clean and would need detail. The model is in the same stage as the Phantom Titan was when FW first released pictures of it. Lastly, the head is too big. The design is nice, and but it should be slightly smaller to give it a less goofy profile. GW makes the same mistake with a ton of their models. Overall, it's a decent walker model, and from what I hear it's priced nice, but that's all. It doesn't look like it belongs to the 40K universe at all.
Looks like we have a solid release date. This just got posted up on GW website
It's good to see the unpaid intern hard at work again. Thanks for the link.
If so, why haven't we seen pics or rules of those yet?
There are other variations- look at the photos again. You should be able to see Knight Errant
Yeah, I've seen the errant, I meant further than those two, as there are rumours of more variations than the two. A close combat one, a gatling weapon type and a grav type weapon.
Kroothawk wrote: So another Apocalypse sized unit forced into normal 40k games? Will this improve game balance?
Not impressed.
My thoughts exactly. Pretty soon standard models on a 4 foot by 6 foot table are going to be on 90mm by 120mm bases. The games are starting to look silly and out of scale with models this size becoming common.
Looking at GW policy post Chapterhouse case verdict they seem to be deliberately crafting rules to deny as many 3rd party sales as possible, whereas in the past they might have issued a C&D or just left it and got on with it when not a cut and dried case.
It looks like to me, assuming the 6/7" height of the new Knights is correct, that GW have sized the knight to fit in the middle of the Dreamforge models to prevent losing as many sales as possible to Dreamforge. I would also expect the Knight to be priced between the 15mm and 28mm leviathans, otherwise if it is too expensive some people will go for the 28mm leviathan (more model for less cash), if its cheaper than the 15mm then they are leaving money on the table. Just a hypothesis.
Looky Likey wrote: Looking at GW policy post Chapterhouse case verdict they seem to be deliberately crafting rules to deny as many 3rd party sales as possible, whereas in the past they might have issued a C&D or just left it and got on with it when not a cut and dried case.
It looks like to me, assuming the 6/7" height of the new Knights is correct, that GW have sized the knight to fit in the middle of the Dreamforge models to prevent losing as many sales as possible to Dreamforge. I would also expect the Knight to be priced between the 15mm and 28mm leviathans, otherwise if it is too expensive some people will go for the 28mm leviathan (more model for less cash), if its cheaper than the 15mm then they are leaving money on the table. Just a hypothesis.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Is it me, or does the silhouette in the video at the end look like a different gun? I'm hoping it is.
Scratch that... looks like the thermal cannon.
FW are bound to do variations of these right... Imagine what might turn up with the HH line, there may be some mega mechanicum styles show up.
if these sell as well as I suspect they will (sounds like ANYONE with an Imperium army is strongly looking at em) I imagine these won;t be the last things we might see.
assuming the knights sell well I think the lesson GW'll take from it is that smallish super heavies that as playable in a medium sized 40k game are gonna be popular. (in a 1500 point game a knights not gonna be out of place)
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BrookM wrote: Just got word that the Knight will be the same price as a Baneblade, so €110 / £85 / $140 USD
Bull0 wrote: That's a lovely tin foil hat you've got there.
How many units in the new hardback codexes are there that have rules but not models? How many units without models got taken out of the 'Nid codex for example?
£85 with my usual 20% discount puts it at £69, the 15mm leviathan is ~£45 and the 28mm is ~£80 with discount. I would expect more bits in the Knight box but a simpler model as I can't see it being articulated to the same degree.
From a personal perspective, in which the model will be almost entirely a painting project and is unlikely ever to see a gaming table, the discount price is in the realms of doable. I would love it to be cheaper, I would never pay full price, but even using an airbrush for the basic painting, by the time I've crafted something to liven up the base,designed and painted a herald and done all the details, I'm looking at a solid 2 months of my available hobby time to complete that. £70 for 2 months entertainment isnt awful.
Having said that, I think the move to ever bigger models is a worrying trend in term sof the game itself, yes, they are mostly cool looking things and as objects I like them, but they inevitable end up two feet apart on a 6x4 gaming table and it just looks stupid.
The game isnt one to compare to reality really, but a table of a couple of squads of marines and a transport or two facing a few squads of eldar and the odd tank sort of 'fit' into the table as a believable battle.
A honking great wraithknight and a couple of these? Not so much.
Having said that, I think the move to ever bigger models is a worrying trend in term sof the game itself, yes, they are mostly cool looking things and as objects I like them, but they inevitable end up two feet apart on a 6x4 gaming table and it just looks stupid.
The game isnt one to compare to reality really, but a table of a couple of squads of marines and a transport or two facing a few squads of eldar and the odd tank sort of 'fit' into the table as a believable battle.
A honking great wraithknight and a couple of these? Not so much.
The biggest problem is that you can't really go much larger on table size than 6'x4' - that 2' is what you can reach comfortably to move models around. Personally, I'm starting to turn towards 15mm scale like FoW for these higher model count battles. Fortunately, for 28mm skirmish there's also Bolt Action that guarantees that there's no big gribblies coming to the table - unless they release some 'Nazi secret weapons' stuff
The size of the latest models really affects the terrain, too. I guess with the new larger models, you should have multiple pieces of 2-3 stories high terrain, just to block the LOS. With the current kits, you have to start looking how Battletech/mecha tables are set up, heightwise, to make it interesting to move infantry and big walkers around. Even the big walkers SHOULD have to make tactical choices, which pieces to maneuver around etc.. So more cityfight terrain?
These would be an interesting option for some Warlord/emperor titans for Epic 40k... I would imagine that the actual versions would be going for around £80 soon anyway :/
zedmeister wrote:Also, really like the visual cues that relate it to the FW Titans.
Roll on the FW Knight Castellan, Crusader and Lancer conversions kits...
My thoughts exactly! In particular, the visual style relates it to the FW Reaver beautifully, IMHO.
Optio wrote:These would be an interesting option for some Warlord/emperor titans for Epic 40k... I would imagine that the actual versions would be going for around £80 soon anyway :/
Yup, first two Imperator's I found on eBay were AU$150 and AU$160 respectively, so pretty well spot on the same price.
I've pretty well gone off GW models in recent years (due to various bits of asshattery on their part), but I think I'll be waiting to see what FW come out with in the next couple of months, and then picking up my favorite Knight-variant. I think the amount of time modelling and painting may, for once, be worth the $$$ spent.
zedmeister wrote:Also, really like the visual cues that relate it to the FW Titans.
Roll on the FW Knight Castellan, Crusader and Lancer conversions kits...
My thoughts exactly! In particular, the visual style relates it to the FW Reaver beautifully, IMHO.
Optio wrote:These would be an interesting option for some Warlord/emperor titans for Epic 40k... I would imagine that the actual versions would be going for around £80 soon anyway :/
Yup, first two Imperator's I found on eBay were AU$150 and AU$160 respectively, so pretty well spot on the same price.
I've pretty well gone off GW models in recent years (due to various bits of asshattery on their part), but I think I'll be waiting to see what FW come out with in the next couple of months, and then picking up my favorite Knight-variant. I think the amount of time modelling and painting may, for once, be worth the $$$ spent.
Not forgetting the possibilities for Chaos Daemon-Knights like the Slaanesh ones of old (Hell Strider, Hell Walker and Hell Knight)
Bull0 wrote: That's a lovely tin foil hat you've got there.
How many units in the new hardback codexes are there that have rules but not models? How many units without models got taken out of the 'Nid codex for example?
£85 with my usual 20% discount puts it at £69, the 15mm leviathan is ~£45 and the 28mm is ~£80 with discount. I would expect more bits in the Knight box but a simpler model as I can't see it being articulated to the same degree.
I just love the way we all talk about GW being totally incompetent one minute but then accuse them of machiavellian astuteness the next. Pick one. Also, if they'd made it more expensive, would you be happier?
zedmeister wrote: Not forgetting the possibilities for Chaos Daemon-Knights like the Slaanesh ones of old (Hell Strider, Hell Walker and Hell Knight)
I really hope they do something like that. Or, at least allow to take a Knight detachment as an Ally of Convenience to CSM.
If its cost is really in the range of a Baneblade, then given a 20% discount at the store I'm buying my WH40k stuff, well, gotta save up some monies...
The official announcement sent to all stores notes that the Knight is an option for six armies: "This week arrives a new exciting model for Imperial Guard and every Space Marine army out there! That is nearly half of all the 40K armies and therefore this release will appeal to a lot of your customers!"
Bull0 wrote: That's a lovely tin foil hat you've got there.
How many units in the new hardback codexes are there that have rules but not models? How many units without models got taken out of the 'Nid codex for example?
£85 with my usual 20% discount puts it at £69, the 15mm leviathan is ~£45 and the 28mm is ~£80 with discount. I would expect more bits in the Knight box but a simpler model as I can't see it being articulated to the same degree.
I just love the way we all talk about GW being totally incompetent one minute but then accuse them of machiavellian astuteness the next. Pick one. Also, if they'd made it more expensive, would you be happier?
It doesn't really take machiavellian astuteness to realise that the model you're making is remarkably similar to competing DF models... one which is 4.6" tall, the other is 8.5" tall, so maybe you should make your model 6-7" tall.
One thing I've just realised is that I am genuinely very excited by a GW release, not a FW release but a standard GW release for the first time in over 10 years.
I mean, you look at these and they look like proper Epic knights of old. No attempt to add ridiculous skulls, unnecessary bling or the usual stuff they've been doing of late. Just an excellent looking model that fits the look of the Imperium. And seeing the Ad-Mech symbol is just icing on the cake! The painting and conversion opportunities are brilliant (Which Knight household will you be: http://warhammer40k.wikia.com/wiki/Knight#Known_Knight_Houses or create your own).
Seriously, Bravo GW, Bravo. More releases along this line will save your bacon and I can see these being very popular with Vets and beginners alike.
I just love the way we all talk about GW being totally incompetent one minute but then accuse them of machiavellian astuteness the next. Pick one. Also, if they'd made it more expensive, would you be happier?
I like how you haven't addressed my point and try to defect onto something else.
Picking up on that anyway, I actually think its pretty stupid to hit back on the 3rd party market both with the case that they brought against Chapterhouse as it was far too overreaching and the over reaction yanking units when they lost the case. Lego has a thriving bits market for things that Lego won't make (like scale versions of real life guns) and they support their bits market, perfect case of the clear market leader in a niche area not being a d-bag and still maintaining sales & IP.
Oh and I think the Knight should be free on the cover of the next White Dwarf.
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Is it me, or does the silhouette in the video at the end look like a different gun? I'm hoping it is.
Scratch that... looks like the thermal cannon.
FW are bound to do variations of these right... Imagine what might turn up with the HH line, there may be some mega mechanicum styles show up.
if these sell as well as I suspect they will (sounds like ANYONE with an Imperium army is strongly looking at em) I imagine these won;t be the last things we might see.
assuming the knights sell well I think the lesson GW'll take from it is that smallish super heavies that as playable in a medium sized 40k game are gonna be popular. (in a 1500 point game a knights not gonna be out of place)
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BrookM wrote: Just got word that the Knight will be the same price as a Baneblade, so €110 / £85 / $140 USD
thats what I expected. no shock there
TBH i dont think they will sell that well, they are nice and all but at 150 that is an extra 50% more expensive than the DF one and Esthetics aside, DF is just simply a better pice of engenniering and much better model. I can see my self buying the DF wich is an expensive but superb model with articulations and posing on the level of action figures, i dont see my self paying 50% more for an already expensive static model, regardless of the lore behind it. I mean, buying all the accesory parts for DF one brings them closer thou it is stil cheaper and they are not really nesesary. I mean its a gw kit, it will sell, how ever you dont see baneblades all over the place.
via 40k Radio ****
http://natfka.blogspot.com/2014/02/imperial-knights-stormtroopers.html Imperial Knight Titan: 1 kit will make all the versions.
Imperial Knight Titan Codex: Three armies in this book.
1st Army: Imperial Knights Army
2nd Army: Mechanicum Army
3rd Army: Freeblades Army (Mercs that can ally)
Warhammer 40k 7th Edition (Yes it is called 7th ed) in May.
Astra Militarium (Imperial Guard):
Stormtroopers (plastic)
Bullgryns (old Ogryns)
Commissar Squads
New Larger Transport
Stormtroopers, Commissar Squads, and Bullgryns are Astra Auxilary. These units may be taken as "plug-ins" to other Imperial armies.
Catachans and Cadians are covered in the new codex. Catachans are not going to direct only.
AllSeeingSkink wrote: It doesn't really take machiavellian astuteness to realise that the model you're making is remarkably similar to competing DF models... one which is 4.6" tall, the other is 8.5" tall, so maybe you should make your model 6-7" tall.
Meh, it wouldn't take much work to remove a couple of vertebrae from the 28mm Leviathan to drop his height a little...
endlesswaltz123 wrote: Is it me, or does the silhouette in the video at the end look like a different gun? I'm hoping it is.
Scratch that... looks like the thermal cannon.
FW are bound to do variations of these right... Imagine what might turn up with the HH line, there may be some mega mechanicum styles show up.
if these sell as well as I suspect they will (sounds like ANYONE with an Imperium army is strongly looking at em) I imagine these won;t be the last things we might see.
assuming the knights sell well I think the lesson GW'll take from it is that smallish super heavies that as playable in a medium sized 40k game are gonna be popular. (in a 1500 point game a knights not gonna be out of place)
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BrookM wrote: Just got word that the Knight will be the same price as a Baneblade, so €110 / £85 / $140 USD
thats what I expected. no shock there
TBH i dont think they will sell that well, they are nice and all but at 150 that is an extra 50% more expensive than the DF one and Esthetics aside, DF is just simply a better pice of engenniering and much better model. I can see my self buying the DF wich is an expensive but superb model with articulations and posing on the level of action figures, i dont see my self paying 50% more for an already expensive static model, regardless of the lore behind it. I mean, buying all the accesory parts for DF one brings them closer thou it is stil cheaper and they are not really nesesary. I mean its a gw kit, it will sell, how ever you dont see baneblades all over the place.
You say "aesthetic aside", but for me, half the point of buying a model is the aesthetic. The other half is whether or not it's in an army I collect and whether or not it's useful on the table top.
Action figure posing doesn't mean a whole lot to me if I'm not a fan of the aesthetic. I don't hate the DF models, but I much prefer the Knight aesthetic.
Baneblade price? Count me out. Too much for something that will only sit on the shelf, no matter how lovely. I already have all 3 previous GW superheavy kits that do just that.
or something it would be a lot easier to understand. Words have a limited amount of information that they can get across.
