Wraiths have +1 S and L over the TW, is fearless and ignores models and DT when moving but -1 base attack and -2 I however they can purchase Whipcoils to give them +3 I (+1 over TW)...
So wraiths are overall a bit better than TW and yet are still cheaper... if they didn't get the T increase they would be more fair.
Of course theur formation + the Decurion detachment is even more burtal... look guys, a free 4+ RP not-save!
Both ABs and NS are 30 points more expensive, and tesla doesn't snap fire... Which honestly I only care about for Immortals, as it kills the utility of swaping their weapon out.
Wraiths are 5 points per model more expensive, but have cheaper upgrades. Whip coils are 7 points cheaper, and Transdimensional Beamers 5.
Both ABs and NS are 30 points more expensive, and tesla doesn't snap fire... Which honestly I only care about for Immortals, as it kills the utility of swaping their weapon out.
Wraiths are 5 points per model more expensive, but have cheaper upgrades. Whip coils are 7 points cheaper, and Transdimensional Beamers 5.
Both ABs and NS are 30 points more expensive, and tesla doesn't snap fire... Which honestly I only care about for Immortals, as it kills the utility of swaping their weapon out.
Wraiths are 5 points per model more expensive, but have cheaper upgrades. Whip coils are 7 points cheaper, and Transdimensional Beamers 5.
Than post the pages?
No?
I'm not sharing copywrited rules publicly like that. Odds are that rumor thread will be nuked the instant the official release happens as is.
I'm a fan of the wraiths for sure (was last codex so this is just icing on the cake)
Definitely will be fielding them with the whip coils as they no longer lose initiative when charging through terrain (some may contest this but I really don't see how GW could have made it any clearer, outside of an explicit statement).
I'm not terribly interested in AB any longer. A 33% price increase + reduced effectiveness = a unit that is not very good any more. I mean, you can definitely still field it, but I'm a lot more excited to try some variation of the super C'tan unit with the crypteks, or even an Obelisk. Do the math - it's better than an equivalent amount of points of ABs in every way.
I never was a huge fan of Cron air, although the late game objective grabs and needed AA can't really be denied (although the list I'm currently constructed definitely tries to haha)
Ghost arks are even better than they used to be, and ought to see some serious play time.
The res orb is interesting, but for a single turn re-roll....I don't know if that's as auto include as the old iteration once was. Plus IIRC it's only for the bearer and his unit so getting wraiths to have that would be much more difficult (especially since D Lords with wraiths are worse now)
I think I will try to work a list around 3 Canoptek harvests and a Decurion detachment and see what happens. No OS is a bummer but maybe wraiths can do the work.
I think CCB are still good. Unless you're going heavy on crypteks for min HQs I would still probably take 1/2. Named special characters do seem more appealing (read: cheaper/possibly viable)
As a Chaos player, the fact the assorted Decurion formations can be taken standalone is a nice side benefit. What I'm considering for 2-formation army formats is either running dual Heldrakes and the Doomscythe formation, or just running a Destroyer Cult in a conventional chaos list.
One standalone Destroyer Lord with Nightmare Shroud,
3 solo Destroyers with Heavy Gauss Cannons.
I think you are seriously passing up some major firepower by not taking the Obelisk.
The thing is practically immortal, and should always get at least 3 of it's spheres off, which is 15 tesla shots. In addition, the dangerous terrain is an awesome bonus for dealing with FMCs and Flyers.
Sasori wrote: I think you are seriously passing up some major firepower by not taking the Obelisk.
The thing is practically immortal, and should always get at least 3 of it's spheres off, which is 15 tesla shots. In addition, the dangerous terrain is an awesome bonus for dealing with FMCs and Flyers.
I guess, I mean that'd require dropping a Wraithwing and that formation is so powerful it's like uh... why would I not take this again? Also I hate the model.
Sasori wrote: I think you are seriously passing up some major firepower by not taking the Obelisk.
The thing is practically immortal, and should always get at least 3 of it's spheres off, which is 15 tesla shots. In addition, the dangerous terrain is an awesome bonus for dealing with FMCs and Flyers.
I guess, I mean that'd require dropping a Wraithwing and that formation is so powerful it's like uh... why would I not take this again? Also I hate the model.
Also isn't the Obelisk a Lord of War.
They are in the "Living Tomb" formation as part of a Decurion.
Hollismason wrote: Oh yeah, but the model its so hideous I can't bring myself to purchase it. I'm already giving in on Tomb Blades, and hate them as well.
Tomb Blades are pretty incredible now, so there is no loss at all.
I really need to figure what to do points wise, as there is so much I want to take at this point!
My biggest question at this point is what to do with the troops. If you assume that the Decurion Detachment is worth giving up Obsec for (which tbh I think it is) then do you ally in Necrons from the normal FOC to gain obsec? Do you ally in another army entirely? Assuming one wants to do neither of those, how do you kit out non-obsec troops? I feel like a night scythe is still somewhat compulsory for some AA since the transport wasn't contesting any objectives anyhow, and the GA isn't bad since it's so durable and has even better guns now, but it just seems so expensive for a non-obsec vehicle, as that was the purpose that I primarily used it for with the old dex.
What do you guys think? My first instinct is to run the warrior troops barebones on foot and just reserve them most of the time, and have the immortals in a night scythe.
The Ghost Ark puts out a fething gak load of shots in the Decurion Formation, Reclamation legion because the Warriors inside it I believe have Relentless. Am I not correct on that? Roll up on someone and dump out 30 Gauss Shots. I guess that's a YMDC question.
I mean 1 Ghost Ark Moving w/ 10 Warriors puts out 50 Gauss shots in 12" and 30 at 24"
Gauss now wounds on a 6 regardless so that's a bonus, but who cares, 50 Gauss Shots should put a dent in just about most things.
Just gonna point it out that stalkers + either/both types of Destroyers are a 2+ re-roll to hit, Don't forget about destroyers can JSJ.
And Tomb blades with stalkers is a 2+ re-roll to hit even though Tomb blades move 12 and stalker moves 6 the area is 6" from the stalker and the front stalker legs and stretch out pretty far (kinda TFG doing that with the legs) but the stalker can always just run if needed
For people that wanna run the C'tan shards run both and let them "hold hands" the deceiver's 2-L aura works great with the nightbringer's 3d6 vs LD ap2 wounds ability.
Deathmarks x 10
Destroyer Lord w/ Warsycythe and the 1 shot St7 AP2 Flamer
Deep Strike in and hit them with the one shot St7 AP2 flamer, then fire off 20 Rapid Fire shots from the Deathmarks into something they're then rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound.
It's almost 20 Auto Wounds on a unit, some will be 6s and some will be precision.
Deathmarks x 10
Destroyer Lord w/ Warsycythe and the 1 shot St7 AP2 Flamer
Deep Strike in and hit them with the one shot St7 AP2 flamer, then fire off 20 Rapid Fire shots from the Deathmarks into something they're then rerolling 1s to hit and 1s to wound.
It's almost 20 Auto Wounds on a unit, some will be 6s and some will be precision.
I don't know, I think if I wanted to deepstrike something in for a massive Impact, It'd be either the Obelisk or a pack of 20 flayed ones.
I think a army of Flayed Ones, Wraiths and Praetorians is going to be a nasty CC army. I said it in the other thread but seriously it's like what do you not take? The Decurion formation has some killer units in it.
The stalker and two preatoriens formation bonus is if the stalker is alive pick a target in LOS of it re-roll all misses and all failed to wounds to that target (or something to that effect) I noticed it didn't have a limit to that formation only. So with that Welcome to die? The ride never ends.
Oberron wrote: The stalker and two preatoriens formation bonus is if the stalker is alive pick a target in LOS of it re-roll all misses and all failed to wounds to that target (or something to that effect) I noticed it didn't have a limit to that formation only. So with that Welcome to die? The ride never ends.
Yeah, I'm thinking the Judicator Battalion and the Canoptek Harvest are some of the most competeitve choices.
Right now, I'm trying to figure out how to pick everything I wan in the Decurion.
looking at the Reclamation legion with The Judicator Battalion, Obelisk, and Canoptek Harvest. It's a very sizable Army, with a really muddled Target Priority for the Enemies.
Are you guys talking about wraiths with RP? 'cos I'm prettyy sure wraiths don't have it. Didn't have it before and it's not not the leaked pages either.
wighti wrote: Are you guys talking about wraiths with RP? 'cos I'm prettyy sure wraiths don't have it. Didn't have it before and it's not not the leaked pages either.
If you take the Canoptek Harvest on the Decurion, if they are within 12' of the Spyder, they can pick one of 3 special rules. One of them being RP.
Might just want to do your research man, this is pretty old news at this point.
The spyder is a bit slow to effectively give them the buff reliably is it not? All the time that is
If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
This. Also, you can always daisy chain them a bit to keep one Wraith far enough back, at least until you hit CC. Once your in CC, that's generally mission accomplished.
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
Judicator is nice, but I really dislike the 2 Praetorian-units you need.
I would prefer to take Destroyers with it, but they need a D-Lord which I do not need.
I think that is the downside to the Decurion.
You are limited in your options unless you take an entire Formation.
Kangodo wrote: Judicator is nice, but I really dislike the 2 Praetorian-units you need.
I would prefer to take Destroyers with it, but they need a D-Lord which I do not need.
I think that is the downside to the Decurion.
You are limited in your options unless you take an entire Formation.
I don't see why you wouldn't want to take Praetorians now. They are great. They got buffed, and a massive price decrease. In addition, they have the 4+ RP. They are a beyond solid assault unit, and they are cheap.
Because that are 280 points I need to take when I actually only want the Stalker.
It's truly weird that so many things give +1 to RP when it has a limit of 4+.
It basically makes the Relic useless and Crypteks overpriced because you are paying for nothing.
What upsets me most is my favourite Damnos-Apoc-Formation.
The entire point of that Formation is that he gains a RP2+, so I will probably have to beg my friends if I want to field that in Apocalypse.
Kangodo wrote: Because that are 280 points I need to take when I actually only want the Stalker.
It's truly weird that so many things give +1 to RP when it has a limit of 4+.
It basically makes the Relic useless and Crypteks overpriced because you are paying for nothing.
What upsets me most is my favourite Damnos-Apoc-Formation.
The entire point of that Formation is that he gains a RP2+, so I will probably have to beg my friends if I want to field that in Apocalypse.
That's fair enough, you are forced to take them to get the Stalker benefit. Honestly, I look at this as a positive though, since I feel that the Praetorians are really good, and the new stalker is good. To me, it's just an all around good Formation!
It basically makes the Relic useless and Crypteks overpriced because you are paying for nothing.
Well, 2 things. One, even in the Decurion, the Cryptek will at least cover against ID (so you still get a 4+ against it). More importantly, though, is it allows you access to the 4+ without having to take Decurion. If you want 4+ Ob Sec Warriors, for instance, Crypteks and a traditional CAD will be the way to go. (Also, the Cryptek Edition Codex should have some curve balls for that).
Actually make that three things. Chronomotrons are pretty frikken awesome.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
That's fair enough, you are forced to take them to get the Stalker benefit. Honestly, I look at this as a positive though, since I feel that the Praetorians are really good, and the new stalker is good. To me, it's just an all around good Formation!
Indeed.
I'm musing around with a way to pair it with a strong HD build. Something like a normal CAD, with 3x1 HDs from FA and 3x3 HDs from HS. Is the Obelisk big enough to reliably hide HDs behind?
Personally I think the Destroyer cult in the Decurion is a stronger build than the Canpotek harvest. I can see myself getting allot more use out of the required unit's than the scarabs and the Spyder (and I think the Spyder is too easy to kill when your opponent realises what it does).
1 x Decurion with the minimum reclamation legion tax and the destroyer cult (and maybe the living tomb for the Obelisk) and a second CAD (detachment? whatever it's called these days) so I can get a couple of unit's of wraiths.
Oh man, was reviewing the BRB Warlord table with Zandy in mind, think of combining this:
Target Priority Units within 12" bubble of Warlord re-roll 1s to hit during shooting
With a Stalker or two. You could seriously melt some face for a turn. (Obvious Destroyer do this naturally, but you could turn basic Warriors into a formidable shooting force for a turn with that combo).
ShadarLogoth wrote: Oh man, was reviewing the BRB Warlord table with Zandy in mind, think of combining this:
Target Priority Units within 12" bubble of Warlord re-roll 1s to hit during shooting
With a Stalker or two. You could seriously melt some face for a turn. (Obvious Destroyer do this naturally, but you could turn basic Warriors into a formidable shooting force for a turn with that combo).
I haven't decided if I'm going to take Z as my Decurion Warlord or not yet. He is so flexiable, I would find it hard not to take him, but I haven't decided if I want a more Offensive Overlord or not.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: Why wouldn't I take an obelisk? Just because GW desperately wants me to take superheavy apocalypse units into our meta doesn't mean our group will.
No obelisk here. The codex is good enough not to need it. Even then I would not.
I still don't get this 3 spyders plus wraiths, I am sure it is only 1 spyder in the formation.
Ok, well this is a Tactics thread. If you want to not take a unit on principal, that's fine, but we don't really need to hear about it.
So let's try to keep this thread relevant by omitting posts like that in future, as it adds absolutely nothing to a tactical discussion.
How can the obelisk fire three at a unit when at best the two tesla spheres on opposite ends fire at a 90 degree angle? or do you mean on very large ork groups standing shoulder to shoulder?
If you point 1 corner and thus 1 tesla sphere directly at the unit you want to shoot then the two adjacent spheres will most likely be able to target it.
No they won't, unless the enemy unit is real close and made of tall models/on top of terrain.
The spheres are Hull Mounted so they can only turn 22.5 degrees in any direction, that combined with how high they are (plus the obelisk itself being mounted on a flying stand) effectively gives them a decently large minimum range.
Orikan is the Cryptek that turns into a 'MC'-wannabe. I will probably play him with the Shielded Lychguard and perhaps a Lord or something to teleport them.
Sigh, don't forget that with a Decurion you need at least 2 Overlords if you want to unlock Orikan. That is ridiculous.
Matt.Kingsley wrote: No they won't, unless the enemy unit is real close and made of tall models/on top of terrain.
The spheres are Hull Mounted so they can only turn 22.5 degrees in any direction, that combined with how high they are (plus the obelisk itself being mounted on a flying stand) effectively gives them a decently large minimum range.
I dunno, that looks to me like they can easily face the same target. Mine is currently built as a Vault, so I'm going to have to buy a new one, but the angle of that photo and the 360 looks to me like you can easily point 3 at the same target.
col_impact wrote: How tough can we make a bargeLord? Mephrit seems the way to do it for the solar thermasite. Is there a way to get a 2+ on him for re-rollable 2+?
Yeah, there's an artifact.
That said, without Sweep or MSS how useful is a Barge Lord?
col_impact wrote: How tough can we make a bargeLord? Mephrit seems the way to do it for the solar thermasite. Is there a way to get a 2+ on him for re-rollable 2+?
Yeah, there's an artifact.
That said, without Sweep or MSS how useful is a Barge Lord?
Can he use an artifact from the main codex if he is Mephrit?
bargeLord's are crazy fast and still have targets that they are ideally suited for and complement wraiths well in my opinion.
bargeLord's are crazy fast and still have targets that they are ideally suited for and complement wraiths well in my opinion.
Well sure, S8 Armorbane against a few things. Seems suboptimal outside that though, particularly as it's had it's effective number of attacks halved.
I'd be more tempted to run a shooty command barge if at all now, to he honest. Thermasite would give quite a lot of highish strength AP3 shots, and the Flamer artefact a once per game ignores cover version.
bargeLord's are crazy fast and still have targets that they are ideally suited for and complement wraiths well in my opinion.
Well sure, S8 Armorbane against a few things. Seems suboptimal outside that though, particularly as it's had it's effective number of attacks halved.
I'd be more tempted to run a shooty command barge if at all now, to he honest. Thermasite would give quite a lot of highish strength AP3 shots, and the Flamer artefact a once per game ignores cover version.
I was teaching my opponents how to defeat MSS so it won't be that much of a drop vs the best opponents. I am mostly interested in speed, re-rollable 2+ or 4++, 5+++ and IWND and hitting choice targets.
I am on my way to go grab the Necron codex right now, so I'll be around in 2-3 hours (say 7 EST I'm hungry haha) to have a little AMA similar to what jackedup did on the Tyranid boards a few days ago. I'll make a separate thread and post the link here once it's created (which will be right around 7). Won't be posting pics but hopefully pretty much everything will be cleared up a little early for you guys (and me haha)
bargeLord's are crazy fast and still have targets that they are ideally suited for and complement wraiths well in my opinion.
Well sure, S8 Armorbane against a few things. Seems suboptimal outside that though, particularly as it's had it's effective number of attacks halved.
I'd be more tempted to run a shooty command barge if at all now, to he honest. Thermasite would give quite a lot of highish strength AP3 shots, and the Flamer artefact a once per game ignores cover version.
I was teaching my opponents how to defeat MSS so it won't be that much of a drop vs the best opponents. I am mostly interested in speed, re-rollable 2+ or 4++, 5+++ and IWND and hitting choice targets.
First step to making him crazy durable is taking him as the requisite HQ to begin a Reclamation Legion and thus a Decurion. That gives him 4+ RP. Then take Nightmare Shroud as it seems to be the only way for Necron Characters to get a 2+ save, and it's most likely 1 per army. We'll probably have to wait for the book to come out to see if you can take stuff from the Necron Codex and Meprhit Dynasty relics. If you can then re rollable 2+ 4++ 4+++ (possibly rerolling 1s) is pretty damn tough.
My new army list will probably look a bit like this:
Ghost ark and warriors x2
Maxed warrior squads up to whatever points game you're playing with some cryteks for RP.
A monolith or two.
A Doomsday ark.
And 18 wraith!
That's an army that has some big blast markers, lots and lots of shots that will kill whatever your target is on a 6, nomatter what your target is and some super close combat squads. Should make for some good fights.
If you want just insane amounts of damage, just go with 30 Tomb Blades w/ Gauss Blasters and Ignore Cover. Make one squad have all Particle Beamers and throw out 10 ST6 AP5 Blasts that ignore cover
I'm really interested in playing a Destroyer Cult with a Judicator Battalion. Destroyers are extremely better now (imo), and adding the Stalker to them makes a very shooty group of units. Use the Judicator special rule to target something, everything basically autohits, and the Destroyer Cult bonus allows all Destroyers to reroll Wounds and Penetration Rolls. Couple with the increased survivability, it's looking very nice to me.
Total = 1760. Expensive with a little bit of wiggle room for an 1850 list. Could cut the Reclamation Legion, but then would miss out on the 4+ Reanimation.
I think it was a really stupid decision to make the D-Lord a Jet Unit too.
We don't need/want them with our Destroyers, but we DO want him in stuff like Wraiths and Praetorians.
Now it seems we don't have any Jump-IC anymore..
Kangodo wrote: I think it was a really stupid decision to make the D-Lord a Jet Unit too.
We don't need/want them with our Destroyers, but we DO want him in stuff like Wraiths and Praetorians.
Now it seems we don't have any Jump-IC anymore..
I'm not too broken up about it. If you really want a character with them, take a CCB and have it hanging around, giving your Praetorians rerolls of 1 on their RP (assuming Decurion).
Kangodo wrote: I think it was a really stupid decision to make the D-Lord a Jet Unit too.
We don't need/want them with our Destroyers, but we DO want him in stuff like Wraiths and Praetorians.
Now it seems we don't have any Jump-IC anymore..
Just have him start in front before movement and trail at the back at the end of movement (trailing wraiths to keep him in coherency). Move them all together in shooting, Then during assault jet pack leapfrog him back to the front. On average he moves a little bit more combined than wraiths.
Hollismason wrote: If only the Justicar Battalion wasn't that expensive it'd so be worth it but you can barely take anything else with it.
This is the best load out I found for the Decurion Formation
Barge Lord w/ Phylactery , Phase Shifter , Warscythe
Necron Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
Necron Warriors w/ Night Scythe
5 Immortals w/ Night Scythe
Total : 905
That still leaves 945 more points to spend if your playing 1850
Honestly, this is sort of where I am heading. I think i'd probably cut the 2 Night Scythes, and keep them as Ghost Arks for the Warriors, and likely just Footslog the Immortals.
THen surely a Canoptek Harvest and an Obelisk. Tough Deciding what to fill in after that!
Kangodo wrote: I think it was a really stupid decision to make the D-Lord a Jet Unit too.
We don't need/want them with our Destroyers, but we DO want him in stuff like Wraiths and Praetorians.
Now it seems we don't have any Jump-IC anymore..
Just have him start in front before movement and trail at the back at the end of movement (trailing wraiths to keep him in coherency). Move them all together in shooting, Then during assault jet pack leapfrog him back to the front. On average he moves a little bit more combined than wraiths.
Pretty sure that's illegal. The Lord cannot use his extra movement whilst attached to a unit that can't move that way.
Reclamation Legion is required to have at least 3 tomb blades though
Automatically Appended Next Post: you could lose all the upgrades for tomb spyders and come close to fitting it. As for the list itself, it seems damn near indestructible, but lacking in punch. Still when you're talking about the level of indestructible that a Decurion with everything having 4+ RPs, that might be enough.
Kangodo wrote: I think it was a really stupid decision to make the D-Lord a Jet Unit too.
We don't need/want them with our Destroyers, but we DO want him in stuff like Wraiths and Praetorians.
Now it seems we don't have any Jump-IC anymore..
Just have him start in front before movement and trail at the back at the end of movement (trailing wraiths to keep him in coherency). Move them all together in shooting, Then during assault jet pack leapfrog him back to the front. On average he moves a little bit more combined than wraiths.
Pretty sure that's illegal. The Lord cannot use his extra movement whilst attached to a unit that can't move that way.
The rules aren't clear whether Jet Pack unit can refer just to the jet pack IC since you are dealing with a mixed unit type. Basically when you have a mixed unit with a jet pack IC and some jump unit wraiths the rule can still apply because the IC is indeed still a jet pack unit in a mixed unit.
Spoiler:
Different Movement Distances Within a Unit
Sometimes, a unit will contain models that move at different speeds. When this is the
case, each model can move up to its maximum movement allowance so long as it remains
in unit coherency (see below).
As promised, the link to the Necron Codex AMA, going on now (sorry I know it's not technically tactics but there are undoubtedly tactical implications!)
Right I have a few questions regarding formations.
1. Are there restrictions on how you deploy?? I ask because I remember reading somewhere that formations have to deploy at the same time, within a certain distance of each other. That may have been apoc though.
2. The royal court formation. Is that a unit of characters?? Or can they be broken up and attached to other units? It seems a bit silly that you could only take Imotekh in a decurion with a unit of other characters, but this is GW
And good god, someone messed up with the wraiths. How they justified that points cost I will never fathom
Monument, I'll answer those questions over on the AMA thread. Don't want to bog down this thread with a bunch of questions that people may already have answers for
I'm leaning towards footslogging myself. A Decurion made up of mainly infantry blocks would absorb insane amounts of damage. A 20 man warrior squad would take about 240 bolter shots to bring down if my math serves me correctly.
I'm fully expecting this book to shake up the meta. Str8 ap3 large blasts will be insanely popular I reckon
Footslogging is made even more viable with the Judicator Formation because it comes with some pretty nasty assault troops and Vehicles that give +1 Ballistic to the warriors then get's to pick a unit and you reroll all failed shooting and wound rolls against that unit.
2 Judicator Battalions minimally come to 810 though.
Hollismason wrote: Footslogging is made even more viable with the Judicator Formation because it comes with some pretty nasty assault troops and Vehicles that give +1 Ballistic to the warriors then get's to pick a unit and you reroll all failed shooting and wound rolls against that unit.
2 Judicator Battalions minimally come to 810 though.
I don't see much of a reason why you would take more than one, when you can just take one, with two max squads and a squad of Triarch Stalkers.
Only the Praetorians and Stalker get the formation bonuses. Warriors would still get the +1 BS though. SilverTide would be pretty cool to see on the table again though.
Hollismason wrote: Footslogging is made even more viable with the Judicator Formation because it comes with some pretty nasty assault troops and Vehicles that give +1 Ballistic to the warriors then get's to pick a unit and you reroll all failed shooting and wound rolls against that unit.
2 Judicator Battalions minimally come to 810 though.
I don't see much of a reason why you would take more than one, when you can just take one, with two max squads and a squad of Triarch Stalkers.
Well you would get to pick two units a turn to get all the rerolls against. Also MSU generally isn't a bad thing in 7th, especially when you're talking about Vehicle Squadrons vs single Vehicles.
With all the Buffs from Decurion Detachment its seems like a lot of players are going to at least try one. To me, the buffs are tempered by the modular nature of the formations and their somewhat high price tags. This seems like it will steer a lot of lists away from spam and towards synergy between the formations.
I'm reading it right now.
The +1BS effects any unit and is a rule from the Stalker itself.
The re-rolls only works on the Formation and is obtained by fielding a Formation.
Thats a bummer. But I still think the Judicator Formation is strong because praetorians are good and mobile for themself and ste stalker is great force multiplier for a gunline.
And of course the sight of stalkers following an advancing silver tide looks just awesome, so I will filed them alone for that reason
I don't play Necrons but I am very tempted to pick some up now that I'm looking at the new codex.
Monoliths are listed as Heavy Skimmers, does this allow them to jink or is there something in the rules for Heavy vehicles that prohibits this? If they can jink, they seem really durable, and for less than a Land Raider? Sweet. The Obelisk/Monolith formation looks like fun too.
There are so many ways to get a 4+ Reanimation roll, and there are a few options for getting large units around the board (teleporting by Obyron/Veil of Darkness, monolith-formation without scatter if placed close to Obelisk). Is Silver TIde the solution for Adamantine lance?
Wraiths are just crazy good. Tomb Blades seem pretty useful as well, with a 3+ jink or Ignore Cover (or a mix of those skills in one unit)
I'm sure Nemesor Zahndrekh's trolltastic ability could be a lot of fun in some games.
I like the fact that Zandrekh straight up steals rules off the enemy now. I'm torn between him or a tooled up Overlord to stick in a big block of warriors.
Overlord with the resurrection artifact means straight up 4+ reanimation against anything that aint destroyer (to hell with your inst death). Im fairly sure the wording on the rerolls even says you can choose to use it after you have failed a roll for him or the unit.
My main gaming buddy plays Orks though, so it would be hilarious to charge in with 40 Str 5 attacks from warriors, even after shooting that turn (Relentless is awesome). So for that Zandrekh seems fitting.
This is all assuming Decurion obviously. Did I read that Tesla carbines are heavy now?
MonumentOfRibs wrote: I like the fact that Zandrekh straight up steals rules off the enemy now. I'm torn between him or a tooled up Overlord to stick in a big block of warriors.
Seems like it could bog the game down though.
"Do any of your units have any of these rules?" Could be a pretty lengthy process.
Zhandrekh always had that, though he no longer steals abilities.
The buff is that you can gain multiple abilities.
But what does suck is that he can no longer give abilities that aren't on the board.
My favourite tactic was to give the T-C'tan Tank Hunter and have him one-shot a Baneblade-chassis with his 6D6-attack.
That's the area where we are probably nerfed the most: Apocalypse.
I already had a hard time against most other armies, but with our only strong points nerfed I can't imagine they will ever win.
buddha wrote: So my big question is how to equip preatorians. Rod or particle caster and voidblade.
A very good question now. Voidblades give them 3 attacks, 4 on the charge, and make them pretty substantial tank shredders as well. Entropic Strike auto-glances on 6s, so 10 with Voidblades/Shredders is 40 attacks, ~2 glances. Actually, that's not too great overall. Not bad, could be a good follow up to finish off a wounded vehicle though.
I would go Rod, though. The Particle Caster is garbage comparatively. It was nice before when it gave you the extra attack and also had more range than the Rod, but now that it just gives 1 more attack AND removes your AP2...
Look, AP2 shooting and at-initiative AP2 Assault is good. Even though it's only I2, that's going before Power Fists, Power Axes, Klaws, etc. That's pretty substantial in the long run.
Void blades also deal with knights (of all types) and with praetorian speed can get some shots in rear as well, there duri formation allows rerolls (unsure if in cc) which is very useful.
The stick will blend heavy armoured troops termies/meganobs etc plus are some of our very few low ap shooting
so over all they are both good BUT at diffrent main targets, i'm planning a squad of each.
MasterSlowPoke wrote: Voidblades are vastly superior against armor and lightly armored hordes.
That is true (assuming by "lightly armored" you mean 5+, as Rod is better against 4+ or better). They're still not a true answer to Knights, though, since they can't really do anything against the Strength D attacks.
Skullhammer wrote: Void blades also deal with knights (of all types) and with praetorian speed can get some shots in rear as well, there duri formation allows rerolls (unsure if in cc) which is very useful.
The stick will blend heavy armoured troops termies/meganobs etc plus are some of our very few low ap shooting
so over all they are both good BUT at diffrent main targets, i'm planning a squad of each.
Void Blades do almost nothing to knights.... Even with a full squad hitting on the charge, which would never happen since the knight goes first, you're still only averaging 4.4 hull-points.
The Void Blade and Particle caster is slightly better and killing light vehicles, and low save models... Something the Necron Army does in abundance.
So what do we have in our book that can deal with knights? ABarges and Scythes can do some damage, assuming we can flank to mitigate the shield. Doom Scythes are quite hard anti-armor now, but with the new Death Ray it's going to be harder to hit the thing (has to remain in front arc, scatter dice are unreliable, etc). Stalkers are our meltas, but of course, they're immobile and prone to, well, getting blown up.
A Destroyer Cult with Heavy Destroyer and 1-2 Heavies in each Destroyer squad getting the rerolls to pen from the Formation might be our best bet against them from a shooting perspective.
In Assault, Scythes are our only real option, other than trying to throw enough Scarabs into the thing to try and eventually glance it down. Except Lychguard suffer the same problem everything else does against a Knight that has a lower Initiative - a bunch will die before they get to attack.
Which is why I think the only "real" option for fighting a Knight is an Overlord and ~2 Lords with Scythes, having a retinue of Sword and Shield Lychguard to try and tank the Chainsword on their 3++ saves. And even that's not fantastic.
Edit: Of course, if you include Forge World, Acanthrites have their meltaguns too, but that's FW and also needing to be in 6" for the Melta range reaaaally sucks.
Kangodo wrote: Zhandrekh always had that, though he no longer steals abilities.
The buff is that you can gain multiple abilities.
But what does suck is that he can no longer give abilities that aren't on the board.
I meant I like that he copies enemy units. Fluff wise I can imagine him going
"We could learn a thing or two from those Orks"
And personally I think him being able to pick a Warlord Trait each turn makes up for that. Re rollins 1's to hit for all friendlies within 12 is a damn good one. Pair that with a Triarch Stalker and you could essentially have BS 5 twin linked warriors. Nasty
If you aren't jinking then a knight will get at least one glance from a barge. If you've got two thats 2 per turn which isn't to bad. And the Doomsday Ark
But assault is tough. I guess you could send wraiths in as both a tarpit and a way to get glances.
Jaq Draco lives wrote: If you aren't jinking then a knight will get at least one glance from a barge. If you've got two thats 2 per turn which isn't to bad. And the Doomsday Ark
But assault is tough. I guess you could send wraiths in as both a tarpit and a way to get glances.
Are you factoring in the 4++ from the Knight, because you actually only get half a glance per barge... and that's estimating with six full hits, which won't always be the case.
As far as named characters go, I rate Zahndrekh pretty highly in this edition.
-Imotekh is ok, bumped to good if you bring Flayed Ones and Deep Strike them.
-Obyron is only good if you're using him for Ghostwalk Mantle shenanigans, but that makes him pretty alright (especially with Zahndrekh for the no-scatter) if you have a squad you want to jump around the board.
-Szeras is the same as before to me. Underwhelming, but cheap. Nice that he has the Lance (and that it has Lance now), so if you want that then I guess he increases in standing.
-Orikan is pretty nice. Rerolling saves of 1 on an important squad is nice, couple with ShieldGuard for 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+++.
-Also, kind of strange that neither Cryptek character has the Chronometron (5++ against shooting)
-Trayzn is only good if you want to troll your opponent by never dying, and even then only if you're running heavy Royal Court. Pass.
-I still don't like Anrakyr. Mind in the Machine is so... underwhelming. Have to be 12", have to roll a 4+, there has to be an enemy unit in the arc of fire... bleh. And making Immortals better in Assault is laughable, especially since he has only 3+, no invuln.
So, I like Zahndrekh all the time, both Crypteks, Obyron, and Imotekh situationally, and Trayzn/Anrakyr not at all.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Jaq Draco lives wrote: If you aren't jinking then a knight will get at least one glance from a barge. If you've got two thats 2 per turn which isn't to bad. And the Doomsday Ark
But assault is tough. I guess you could send wraiths in as both a tarpit and a way to get glances.
Ah jeez, I totally skipped over Wraiths for no reason. Yeah, they're probably the best bet, since they can 3++ and also occasionally Rend (need 6s).
Again, Wraiths looking like the MVPs of this edition.
I don't know why making immortals better in assault is laughable. They're actually pretty good at it, especially with the RP changes. It's actually one of the remainign benefits of tesla carbines.
Alcibiades wrote: I don't know why making immortals better in assault is laughable. They're actually pretty good at it, especially with the RP changes. It's actually one of the remainign benefits of tesla carbines.
How are Tesla better for Assault? They no longer get the extra hits on 6s when snap shooting. Which means Gauss is actually better for Overwatch, since it gets twice the shots.
I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Alcibiades wrote: I don't know why making immortals better in assault is laughable. They're actually pretty good at it, especially with the RP changes. It's actually one of the remainign benefits of tesla carbines.
How are Tesla better for Assault? They no longer get the extra hits on 6s when snap shooting. Which means Gauss is actually better for Overwatch, since it gets twice the shots.
I think he meant you can Assault after shooting, which you can't do with Gauss iirc.
Well that's true, sure. I mean, you get Relentless if you're part of the Reclamation Legion so that doesn't matter in that regard, but I guess if you want to charge your Immortals into something you can. Not sure why you would, though, they're basically just tougher Tactical Marines with I2.
willow wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Alcibiades wrote: I don't know why making immortals better in assault is laughable. They're actually pretty good at it, especially with the RP changes. It's actually one of the remainign benefits of tesla carbines.
How are Tesla better for Assault? They no longer get the extra hits on 6s when snap shooting. Which means Gauss is actually better for Overwatch, since it gets twice the shots.
I think he meant you can Assault after shooting, which you can't do with Gauss iirc.
I really want to run one, but he's just too fragile. It's not THAT hard to wreck the barge and kill him. He'd be good at taking out vehicles in CC, but do we really need that? For my points, I'll take my Overlord on foot to add punch to a unit (like Lychguard).
The only way I see myself bringing a CCB now is as a shooting unit. Now BS5, Staff of Light is as good as ever, can take a one off AP2 flamer (Though loses out on 2+). Can take Gauntlet of Fire without replacing the Staff now, if you want to get close to hordes or have some extra Overwatch.
But yeah, CCBs. Interesting, still super killy against vehicles or units that can't kill the Barge, not so much against dedicated Assault units. Well, they never were, but still. Shooty version got buffed, Assault version got nerfed, plain as that.
willow wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Any thoughts?
How is it that the RP no longer works on the barge? The 7th edition BRB specifies that it does work in the chariot rules.
Investigating . ..
Spoiler:
If the rider has a special rule that returns
it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron’s Ever-living special
rule, that model’s Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I mean, you can take the Phylactery and give the Overlord and the Chariot IWND, but that doesn't help if something with AP2 just punches the Chariot and one shots it.
willow wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Any thoughts?
How is it that the RP no longer works on the barge? The 7th edition BRB specifies that it does work in the chariot rules.
Investigating . ..
Spoiler:
If the rider has a special rule that returns
it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron’s Ever-living special
rule, that model’s Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
willow wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Any thoughts?
How is it that the RP no longer works on the barge? The 7th edition BRB specifies that it does work in the chariot rules.
Investigating . ..
Spoiler:
If the rider has a special rule that returns
it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron’s Ever-living special
rule, that model’s Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I guess it does no longer apply.
"Such as"
As in, "Comparable to this example".
Exactly, so RP does nothing for it now. Which suckers a bit, but hey what can you do?
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
I agree the obelisk is a solid unit but people need to stop posting that it can double or heck even triple down on a single unit with the tesla spheres. The spheres are a hull mounting meaning they have a 45 degree arc from each corner, now that means 22.5 split from the center axis. Heck I even included a liberal 45 degree from each side of the center axis which is actually a 90 degree arc and it still can't double or triple down on anything.
Here is an ms paint mock up a did real quick.
The center pyramid is the obelisk from a birds eye view.
The yellow triangles off from the corners are the 45 degree firing arcs from each sphere.
add in the smaller green triangles to make them 90 degree arcs (which isn't even legal) and you still can come even remotely close to finding any overlap.
its a solid choice as long as you have multiple targets worth hitting and I still advocate fielding one as it's immune to alpha strikes and insanely durable for it's cost and hass decent fire power, BUT people need to stop making the claim that it can angle 3 sphheres on a single target when you shouldn't ever get even two spheres playing them legally (45 degree arcs)
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
I agree the obelisk is a solid unit but people need to stop posting that it can double or heck even triple down on a single unit with the tesla spheres. The spheres are a hull mounting meaning they have a 45 degree arc from each corner, now that means 22.5 split from the center axis. Heck I even included a liberal 45 degree from each side of the center axis which is actually a 90 degree arc and it still can't double or triple down on anything.
Here is an ms paint mock up a did real quick.
The center pyramid is the obelisk from a birds eye view.
The yellow triangles off from the corners are the 45 degree firing arcs from each sphere.
add in the smaller green triangles to make them 90 degree arcs (which isn't even legal) and you still can come even remotely close to finding any overlap.
its a solid choice as long as you have multiple targets worth hitting and I still advocate fielding one as it's immune to alpha strikes and insanely durable for it's cost and hass decent fire power, BUT people need to stop making the claim that it can angle 3 sphheres on a single target when you shouldn't ever get even two spheres playing them legally (45 degree arcs)
Nice graphic, but the guns aren't mounted at the bottom like that. They're closer to the top and therefore much closer together, increasing the chance of overlapping arcs.
willow wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Any thoughts?
How is it that the RP no longer works on the barge? The 7th edition BRB specifies that it does work in the chariot rules.
Investigating . ..
Spoiler:
If the rider has a special rule that returns
it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron’s Ever-living special
rule, that model’s Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I guess it does no longer apply.
"Such as"
As in, "Comparable to this example".
Exactly, so RP does nothing for it now. Which suckers a bit, but hey what can you do?
No, RP clearly works. It's a comparable example. What's hard to understand?
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
I agree the obelisk is a solid unit but people need to stop posting that it can double or heck even triple down on a single unit with the tesla spheres. The spheres are a hull mounting meaning they have a 45 degree arc from each corner, now that means 22.5 split from the center axis. Heck I even included a liberal 45 degree from each side of the center axis which is actually a 90 degree arc and it still can't double or triple down on anything.
Here is an ms paint mock up a did real quick.
The center pyramid is the obelisk from a birds eye view.
The yellow triangles off from the corners are the 45 degree firing arcs from each sphere.
add in the smaller green triangles to make them 90 degree arcs (which isn't even legal) and you still can come even remotely close to finding any overlap.
its a solid choice as long as you have multiple targets worth hitting and I still advocate fielding one as it's immune to alpha strikes and insanely durable for it's cost and hass decent fire power, BUT people need to stop making the claim that it can angle 3 sphheres on a single target when you shouldn't ever get even two spheres playing them legally (45 degree arcs)
Nice graphic, but the guns aren't mounted at the bottom like that. They're closer to the top and therefore much closer together, increasing the chance of overlapping arcs.
And they're orbs, so the arc is actually a lot wider than 90 degrees.
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
I agree the obelisk is a solid unit but people need to stop posting that it can double or heck even triple down on a single unit with the tesla spheres. The spheres are a hull mounting meaning they have a 45 degree arc from each corner, now that means 22.5 split from the center axis. Heck I even included a liberal 45 degree from each side of the center axis which is actually a 90 degree arc and it still can't double or triple down on anything.
Here is an ms paint mock up a did real quick.
The center pyramid is the obelisk from a birds eye view.
The yellow triangles off from the corners are the 45 degree firing arcs from each sphere.
add in the smaller green triangles to make them 90 degree arcs (which isn't even legal) and you still can come even remotely close to finding any overlap.
its a solid choice as long as you have multiple targets worth hitting and I still advocate fielding one as it's immune to alpha strikes and insanely durable for it's cost and hass decent fire power, BUT people need to stop making the claim that it can angle 3 sphheres on a single target when you shouldn't ever get even two spheres playing them legally (45 degree arcs)
Nice graphic, but the guns aren't mounted at the bottom like that. They're closer to the top and therefore much closer together, increasing the chance of overlapping arcs.
LOL when I was making it I knew someone would say that, and it's silly because it defies mathematics. The arcs are facing WAY from eachother so even if the spheres all touched at the very top, with the 45 degree arc they have they still COULDN"T find overlap.
Not to mention the graphic doesn't illustrate it's second massive problem, the arc down which again is 45 degrees, or 22.5 down meaning the high up they go to try to hone in, the bigger that minimum range gets on a gun with less then awesome maximum range.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @changemod, lol seriously? They are hull mounted. Find mean where orb mounted is a thing in the BRB, I'll wait.
willow wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Any thoughts?
How is it that the RP no longer works on the barge? The 7th edition BRB specifies that it does work in the chariot rules.
Investigating . ..
Spoiler:
If the rider has a special rule that returns
it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron’s Ever-living special
rule, that model’s Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I guess it does no longer apply.
"Such as"
As in, "Comparable to this example".
Exactly, so RP does nothing for it now. Which suckers a bit, but hey what can you do?
No, RP clearly works. It's a comparable example. What's hard to understand?
The pertinent text is "special rule that returns it to play" RP does NOT return models to play and therefore, that rule does not apply.
Edit: Regarding the Hull mounted argument. Does anyone have the model? Do the orbs turn and move? If they do, you'd have trouble convincing me or any one I play with that they can't shoot things they're pointing at. If they are static, then the 45 degree hull mounted rule would definitely take precedence.
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
I agree the obelisk is a solid unit but people need to stop posting that it can double or heck even triple down on a single unit with the tesla spheres. The spheres are a hull mounting meaning they have a 45 degree arc from each corner, now that means 22.5 split from the center axis. Heck I even included a liberal 45 degree from each side of the center axis which is actually a 90 degree arc and it still can't double or triple down on anything.
Here is an ms paint mock up a did real quick.
The center pyramid is the obelisk from a birds eye view.
The yellow triangles off from the corners are the 45 degree firing arcs from each sphere.
add in the smaller green triangles to make them 90 degree arcs (which isn't even legal) and you still can come even remotely close to finding any overlap.
its a solid choice as long as you have multiple targets worth hitting and I still advocate fielding one as it's immune to alpha strikes and insanely durable for it's cost and hass decent fire power, BUT people need to stop making the claim that it can angle 3 sphheres on a single target when you shouldn't ever get even two spheres playing them legally (45 degree arcs)
Why do you think the guns are hull mounted? You look at the model to see the firing arc.
I think they are hull mounted because thats what they are lol. Are they a turret? No, oviously not. Are they a sponson? Maybe, but even still they don't move!
Sorry but they very much are defined in the BRB as a hull mounting in this case which means 45 degrees or 22.5 left and right from the center axis emanating from the corners.
Yeah that's always been the case if the gun is built to swivel it has that arc. If it cannot be moved whatsoever it has the 45 arc. Let me dig up the rule real quick. Do the Tesla Spheres move?
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings. In the rare cases when it matters, assume that guns can swivel vertically up to 45º, even if the barrel on the model itself cannot physically do that! Additionally, assume all hull-mounted weapons can swivel horizontally up to 45º.
That's the biggest misunderstood rule when it comes to Vehicles.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah that's always been the case if the gun is built to swivel it has that arc. If it cannot be moved whatsoever it has the 45 arc. Let me dig up the rule real quick. Do the Tesla Spheres move?
Spoiler:
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings.
Thing is, it still a steal as is. It moves 12" and can fire at full effect AND can thunderblitz anything that gets near it. The arcs still provoke a player to bunch up to avoid its other arcs making it pair nicely with things like wraiths that want you in one area. Too bad wraiths suck right? Oh wait...
Hollismason wrote: Yeah that's always been the case if the gun is built to swivel it has that arc. If it cannot be moved whatsoever it has the 45 arc. Let me dig up the rule real quick. Do the Tesla Spheres move?
Spoiler:
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings.
Nice try buddy, but those are CAST on and it has nothing to do with that rule which refers to glued down parts.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah that's always been the case if the gun is built to swivel it has that arc. If it cannot be moved whatsoever it has the 45 arc. Let me dig up the rule real quick. Do the Tesla Spheres move?
Spoiler:
On some models, it will actually be impossible to move the gun and point it towards the
target because of the way the model is assembled. In this case, players should assume
that the guns on a vehicle are free to rotate or swivel on their mountings.
I think the intention here is to cover things like sponsons designed to swivel, but have been glued in place anyway (for whatever reason). Not weapons that do not swivel when assembled correctly.
Edit: Ya know what? Let's stop bombing this thread with this argument. If anyone still needs to say their piece, we should move it to YMDC. Thanks.
willow wrote: I'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but does anyone think the tactics for CC bargelords (if anyone will still use them) have changed?
We used to be able to rely on a RP roll to bring back a bargelord if they were killed, but now all it takes is killing the barge in CC and the whole model will be removed because our new RP doesn't apply to the barge.
Any thoughts?
How is it that the RP no longer works on the barge? The 7th edition BRB specifies that it does work in the chariot rules.
Investigating . ..
Spoiler:
If the rider has a special rule that returns
it to play after it has been removed as a casualty, such as a Necron’s Ever-living special
rule, that model’s Chariot is also returned to play with a single Hull Point.
I guess it does no longer apply.
"Such as"
As in, "Comparable to this example".
Exactly, so RP does nothing for it now. Which suckers a bit, but hey what can you do?
No, RP clearly works. It's a comparable example. What's hard to understand?
Reanimation Protocols: When a model with this rule takes an unsaved wound... cannot be taken against "removed from play"...
How is this close at all? The Chariot doesn't take wounds, neither does the Overlord when the CCB blows up. The Chariot cannot make a RP test and the Overlord can't take it once he's removed along with the Barge.
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
I agree the obelisk is a solid unit but people need to stop posting that it can double or heck even triple down on a single unit with the tesla spheres. The spheres are a hull mounting meaning they have a 45 degree arc from each corner, now that means 22.5 split from the center axis. Heck I even included a liberal 45 degree from each side of the center axis which is actually a 90 degree arc and it still can't double or triple down on anything.
Here is an ms paint mock up a did real quick.
The center pyramid is the obelisk from a birds eye view.
The yellow triangles off from the corners are the 45 degree firing arcs from each sphere.
add in the smaller green triangles to make them 90 degree arcs (which isn't even legal) and you still can come even remotely close to finding any overlap.
its a solid choice as long as you have multiple targets worth hitting and I still advocate fielding one as it's immune to alpha strikes and insanely durable for it's cost and hass decent fire power, BUT people need to stop making the claim that it can angle 3 sphheres on a single target when you shouldn't ever get even two spheres playing them legally (45 degree arcs)
Nice graphic, but the guns aren't mounted at the bottom like that. They're closer to the top and therefore much closer together, increasing the chance of overlapping arcs.
Just measured the distance between two of the tesla spheres. They are 3.75 inches apart, 9.525 centimeters to those across the pond. With a height of 9 inches, 22.86 centimeters, to where the guns are (their midpoint).
They also have a 67.5 degree blindspot that's 9 inches tall. If my trig math is correct I am getting a length of 21.74 inches before a target is in LOS from the obelisk but that is if the target is paper thin on the floor so the taller a target is the closer you can shoot it from.
Marine at 1.5 inches = 18.11 inch range to hit from (46 centimeters)
models that are 2 inches like st celestine = 16.91 inches to hit (42.95 centimeters)
Rhino (I used my sob immolator) 3 inches = 14.49 inches (36.80)
Dreadnaught at 4 inch height(don't know if this is right just googled) = 12.07 inches (30.66 centimeters)
RIptide at 6.5 inches = 6 inches away (15.24 centimeters)
I hope someone can tell me my math is wrong in this case and is really much closer than what I have came up with, been forever since I've done trig. Also unable to hit the rhino with more than one tesla on the front.
Golden rule for more than one tesla from the obelisk is at 3.75 inches wide. Three on a single target is out of the question unless the unit is a green tide in a crescent formation
Sasori wrote: If you Run the spyder, it's really not that had to keep one model within 12' of it for the first few turns.
On average you will fall 2.5" behind per Turn, which means you have 4 turns before you get out of range if you don't make a line with them.
About the Tactics:
This is a tactic thread, not a "please link me scans of the Codex"-thread.
I think Wraiths in their Formation are strong, but I don't think the best thing is to spam those.
That's because everything we have is so good I would feel bad for skipping on those.
Even the Scarabs seem to have a place now.
The Obelisk is really good too.
It can push out so many S7-attacks, and it is quite cheap compared to AB's.
Agreed. Personally, I think only one Canoptek Harvest is needed. There are plenty of other things I'd like to fit in, like the Judicator Battalion and The Obelisk.
The Obelisk in my opinion, is probably the best single unit we have available at this point. It can fire each of it's spheres at a different unit, and if you face it correctly, can fire 3 Spheres at a single unit. There are very very few things in the game that can survive a 15 Tesla Volley.
In addition, it's insanely durable and has it's Anti-Skimmer/Jetbike/Flyer/FMC Pulse. You can not beat this thing for the value it brings in so many areas.
I agree the obelisk is a solid unit but people need to stop posting that it can double or heck even triple down on a single unit with the tesla spheres. The spheres are a hull mounting meaning they have a 45 degree arc from each corner, now that means 22.5 split from the center axis. Heck I even included a liberal 45 degree from each side of the center axis which is actually a 90 degree arc and it still can't double or triple down on anything.
Here is an ms paint mock up a did real quick.
The center pyramid is the obelisk from a birds eye view.
The yellow triangles off from the corners are the 45 degree firing arcs from each sphere.
add in the smaller green triangles to make them 90 degree arcs (which isn't even legal) and you still can come even remotely close to finding any overlap.
its a solid choice as long as you have multiple targets worth hitting and I still advocate fielding one as it's immune to alpha strikes and insanely durable for it's cost and hass decent fire power, BUT people need to stop making the claim that it can angle 3 sphheres on a single target when you shouldn't ever get even two spheres playing them legally (45 degree arcs)
Nice graphic, but the guns aren't mounted at the bottom like that. They're closer to the top and therefore much closer together, increasing the chance of overlapping arcs.
Just measured the distance between two of the tesla spheres. They are 3.75 inches apart, 9.525 centimeters to those across the pond. With a height of 9 inches, 22.86 centimeters, to where the guns are (their midpoint).
They also have a 67.5 degree blindspot that's 9 inches tall. If my trig math is correct I am getting a length of 21.74 inches before a target is in LOS from the obelisk but that is if the target is paper thin on the floor so the taller a target is the closer you can shoot it from.
Marine at 1.5 inches = 18.11 inch range to hit from (46 centimeters)
models that are 2 inches like st celestine = 16.91 inches to hit (42.95 centimeters)
Rhino (I used my sob immolator) 3 inches = 14.49 inches (36.80)
Dreadnaught at 4 inch height(don't know if this is right just googled) = 12.07 inches (30.66 centimeters)
RIptide at 6.5 inches = 6 inches away (15.24 centimeters)
I hope someone can tell me my math is wrong in this case and is really much closer than what I have came up with, been forever since I've done trig. Also unable to hit the rhino with more than one tesla on the front.
Golden rule for more than one tesla from the obelisk is at 3.75 inches wide. Three on a single target is out of the question unless the unit is a green tide in a crescent formation
Eeeh... I dunno man. I get not hitting with two (even if I don't necessarily agree with it), but even at a tournament I don't think anyone would ever argue "you can't shoot me because I'm too close and underneath your gun". That's seriously pushing things.
Come on people, they are called "spheres" for a reason.
I would not take anyone seriously who would try to argue that i just use these mini "barrels" on the spheres for firing arcs. GW should FAQ this...
Requizen wrote: Yeah, the model is very clearly designed to be a ball-in-socket type thing, even if it's modeled onto it.
The model is clearly not ball in socket. For one its molded in place. Two the barrel tracks up and down and can be modeled at various angles up and down only. Its a hull mounted gun.
Requizen wrote: Yeah, the model is very clearly designed to be a ball-in-socket type thing, even if it's modeled onto it.
The model is clearly not ball in socket. For one its molded in place. Two the barrel tracks up and down and can be modeled at various angles up and down only. Its a hull mounted gun.
It's not clear either way frankly. I can't conclusively argue against someone saying its a turret. In this case you have to go with the more permissive interpretation until you get more info.
Requizen wrote: Yeah, the model is very clearly designed to be a ball-in-socket type thing, even if it's modeled onto it.
The model is clearly not ball in socket. For one its molded in place. Two the barrel tracks up and down and can be modeled at various angles up and down only. Its a hull mounted gun.
Look at the model.
Spoiler:
In what world would you look at those things and say "yeah, they can only move up and down".
The BRB used to say (I don't have mine right now) that a gun could traverse as it was physically intended (even if you glued it) the tesla spheres were physically intended to not move at all. So how can we even begin to argue that they are anything more then clearly modeled hull mounted unmoveable guns? This is just wishful thinking to try an make sense of the largely underwhelming obelisk.
I change my position. Looking closely at the Orbs, they clearly have a vertical track that runs from the top of the sphere to the bottom, intersecting with the cannon. Given this, it should only be able to move up and down. BrotherGecko and RedCorsair are correct here.
Requizen wrote: Yeah, the model is very clearly designed to be a ball-in-socket type thing, even if it's modeled onto it.
The model is clearly not ball in socket. For one its molded in place. Two the barrel tracks up and down and can be modeled at various angles up and down only. Its a hull mounted gun.
Look at the model.
Spoiler:
In what world would you look at those things and say "yeah, they can only move up and down".
First of all I own the model.
1. The barrel is mounted on a up and down track.
2. The "sphere" is under the track.
3. The "sphere" has those cool clamps locking it in place.
4. Those "spheres" are not spheres. Look into the intricately modeled inside of the model and they are concave. So it isn't even modeled ball and socket.
Can we talk about how the Destroyer Lords are unbelievably insane now with getting RP on each of their T6 wounds.
Crazy good.
Destroyer Lord w/ War Scythe , Phylactery,, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter
Total : 205
2+, 4++, 5++, 5+ It will not die. T6.
Or you can go the cheap route
Destroyer , Warscythe, Phylactery
Total :170
Who do we put them with though??
3+ , 5+ , 5+.
Lychguard
Check this out :
7 Lychguard w/ War Scythe
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phylactery, Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter, Resurrection Orb
Total : 410 Points
25 ST7 Attacks @ AP2 all with Preferred enemy
The bonus being that the Rez Orb, let's them Reroll all failed RP saves. So if they get in a pickle or your worried they'll get shot up when they arrive. Pop the orb.
I call this Hammer and Anvil
Destroyer Lord w/ Veil of Darkness, Warscythe, Phylactery, Phase Shifter , Ressurection Orb , 230
That said, I still think the Obelisk is a decent choice. You should still always be able to hit 2 (separate) units with it, maybe 3, it moves fast, has a big zone that, while not as good as before, is scary for Skimmers/Flyers/some FMCs. And with the formation, an auto-turn-2-reserve isn't anything to laugh about either. For 300 points it's a nice big AV14 superheavy with some good guns, which is nothing close to bad in my book.
Heck, even without the extra Tesla hits on snapshots, 5 S7 shots at flyers is nothing to sneeze at.
MonumentOfRibs wrote: Are you talkin about the relic Rez orb?? Because I think that adds one to the RP doesn't it?
Either way that is nasty.
Actually, about this. Let's talk about the wording.
"The Orb of Eternity can be activated once per game, immediately after an unsuccessful RP roll has been made for [someone in the unit]. You can re-roll that failed RP roll, and any further failed RP rolls made for [models in this unit], until the end of the phase. Furthermore, when activated, all RP rolls made for [models in the unit] receive a +1 bonus until the end of the phase, including failed RP rolls."
The regular Res Orb says similar wording. "After a model in this unit fails a RP roll...", which makes it sound like for units with a Res Orb you have to take those saves one-at-a-time and decide on each one whether or not you want to activate the Orb. Because it's a big difference rolling the first fail and deciding, or rolling 20, seeing 15 fails, and deciding then.
By the way, posted it in the old rumors thread, here you go:
Requizen wrote: "Artefacts of the Aeons are items of terrifying power, and each is older than many of the lesser races themselves. Only one of each of the following relics may be chosen per army."
Nothing here preventing Mephrit from taking them. Rejoice!
So you can take 2+ Armour relic and Solar Thermasite for a very tanky Overlord. If you're running Mephrit Dynasty, of course, those 3 Relics are still Mephrit only.
Requizen wrote: By the way, posted it in the old rumors thread, here you go:
Requizen wrote: "Artefacts of the Aeons are items of terrifying power, and each is older than many of the lesser races themselves. Only one of each of the following relics may be chosen per army."
Nothing here preventing Mephrit from taking them. Rejoice!
So you can take 2+ Armour relic and Solar Thermasite for a very tanky Overlord. If you're running Mephrit Dynasty, of course, those 3 Relics are still Mephrit only.
Jpr wrote: Can you take more than 1 relic on the same character?
The Codex relics specifically state "A Model may take one of the following", so you can't take more than one Relic per Character. The Mephrit Dynasty Relics in Exterminatus have no such sentence.
Can we talk about how the Destroyer Lords are unbelievably insane now with getting RP on each of their T6 wounds.
Crazy good.
Destroyer Lord w/ War Scythe , Phylactery,, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter
Total : 205
2+, 4++, 5++, 5+ It will not die. T6.
Which would be awsome *if* it could still move 12".
There are other uses. Attach him to a blob of Lychguard or Flayed Ones to get him to challenges (where he's still pretty sick). Stick him with Destroyers and let him tank things for them on his saves (of course, using T5, but still, lots of saves). The old standard of putting him with Deathmarks for PE and now a AP2 Flamer is still nice as well.
You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
"Perfectly RAW" is stretching it. If you move out of coherency in the Movement/Shooting phase, he's no longer part of the unit. He can't reattach to the unit in the Assault phase, only in the Movement Phase. So unless you're making a conga line out of your Wraiths to keep him in coherency during Movement, he'll lag behind in ~2~3 turns.
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
"Perfectly RAW" is stretching it. If you move out of coherency in the Movement/Shooting phase, he's no longer part of the unit. He can't reattach to the unit in the Assault phase, only in the Movement Phase. So unless you're making a conga line out of your Wraiths to keep him in coherency during Movement, he'll lag behind in ~2~3 turns.
That should be perfectly doable though. He can use his jump move to move further up in the formation again after staying barely in coherency during regular move and run.
On another note: the damn decurion detachment is dangling like a carrot in front of me... but it wouldn't allow for something like a D-Lord without also paying a 9 destroyer tax... sigh...
I think it's actually great codex design to make sure that if you want all the cakes, you won't have too much of any single one.
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
"Perfectly RAW" is stretching it. If you move out of coherency in the Movement/Shooting phase, he's no longer part of the unit. He can't reattach to the unit in the Assault phase, only in the Movement Phase. So unless you're making a conga line out of your Wraiths to keep him in coherency during Movement, he'll lag behind in ~2~3 turns.
The wraiths stretch out about 4" to make it happen.
They move 12" with the trailing wraith at the 8" mark. The D Lord winds up at the 6" mark.
You lose fleet and roll for the run move during the shooting phase.
During assault you use the jet pack. Roll 2d6 and move him average 7" but no more than 2" in front of the wraith pack.
And it's perfectly RAW. You are dealing with a mixed unit.
It's BAO/LVO/Adepticon legal.
There's a Tau crisis suit issue and Tau drone issue which blazed the way for this to happen.
except (yay GW rule-writing) only Jet Infantry units can thrust.
is a Wraith unit a JI unit? is a DLord/Wraith combined unit a JI unit? The first one is obviously a No but the second is unclear, some say yes some say no. Not everyone will agree he CAN make a thrust move.
(For the record RAW I'd say No as ICs are treated as being a part of the unit and as the unit is a Beast Unit, he couldn't Thrust Move, however HIWPI, he can trust)
Nebuloscope only give ignore cover for the weapons of the model. I dont think they work on quad gun as they are not weapons of the tomb blade, just used by them
The Rule Says: "..all his wepaons have the.......ignore cover rule"
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
I'd argue that RAW is most certainly not on your side.
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
So, that destroyer lord is counted as part of a beast unit - not a jet pack unit. And, only jet pack units can make thrust moves.
At the very least, the RAW is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
Though, even if people accept your RAW, it still sounds like a dubious strategy.
For one, whatever else happens, you've lost fleet. And, with a unit dragging you back, this could scupper you on a crucial turn.
For two, it seems like you'll really struggle to make the Destroyer Lord keep up without also slowing the Wraiths down. In particular, I'm struggling to see how you'll maintain coherency, whilst still moving the wraiths their full distance. Maybe if you run them in a line, though that in turn leaves you open to your opponent pushing you back by killing the front wraith. And, this is all assuming the lord never once fluffs his thrust move. If he rolls snake-eyes then you're stuck either barely moving next turn or else breaking off the lord.
stormcraft wrote: Nebuloscope only give ignore cover for the weapons of the model. I dont think they work on quad gun as they are not weapons of the tomb blade, just used by them
The Rule Says: "..all his wepaons have the.......ignore cover rule"
Nebuloscope says "If the model has this, all his Ranged Weapons have the Ignores Cover special rule". I guess it depends, when a model controls an emplaced weapon, does hit because "his weapon"?
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
I'd argue that RAW is most certainly not on your side.
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
So, that destroyer lord is counted as part of a beast unit - not a jet pack unit. And, only jet pack units can make thrust moves.
At the very least, the RAW is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
Though, even if people accept your RAW, it still sounds like a dubious strategy.
For one, whatever else happens, you've lost fleet. And, with a unit dragging you back, this could scupper you on a crucial turn.
For two, it seems like you'll really struggle to make the Destroyer Lord keep up without also slowing the Wraiths down. In particular, I'm struggling to see how you'll maintain coherency, whilst still moving the wraiths their full distance. Maybe if you run them in a line, though that in turn leaves you open to your opponent pushing you back by killing the front wraith. And, this is all assuming the lord never once fluffs his thrust move. If he rolls snake-eyes then you're stuck either barely moving next turn or else breaking off the lord.
Well, that's an interesting question. When a Jump Character is part of an Infantry unit, does he Hammer of Wrath? Can a Jetbike in a non-Jetbike squad jink?
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
I'd argue that RAW is most certainly not on your side.
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
So, that destroyer lord is counted as part of a beast unit - not a jet pack unit. And, only jet pack units can make thrust moves.
At the very least, the RAW is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
Though, even if people accept your RAW, it still sounds like a dubious strategy.
For one, whatever else happens, you've lost fleet. And, with a unit dragging you back, this could scupper you on a crucial turn.
For two, it seems like you'll really struggle to make the Destroyer Lord keep up without also slowing the Wraiths down. In particular, I'm struggling to see how you'll maintain coherency, whilst still moving the wraiths their full distance. Maybe if you run them in a line, though that in turn leaves you open to your opponent pushing you back by killing the front wraith. And, this is all assuming the lord never once fluffs his thrust move. If he rolls snake-eyes then you're stuck either barely moving next turn or else breaking off the lord.
Issue has already been on YMDC.
You need to key in on the fact that at root is an issue about dealing with mixed units.
I think there's just a confused interpretation of this passage:
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
Being part of the unit isn't necessarily the same as being the same type as the unit. It just means he's part of the unit for targeting, testing, rolling reserves, etc. It doesn't state that he changes his type, or loses/gains rules (except in the case of "if one model has this rule the unit does").
Requizen wrote: I think there's just a confused interpretation of this passage:
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
Being part of the unit isn't necessarily the same as being the same type as the unit. It just means he's part of the unit for targeting, testing, rolling reserves, etc. It doesn't state that he changes his type, or loses/gains rules (except in the case of "if one model has this rule the unit does").
Yeah, if he counted as part of the unit in that way, he'd become a beast and be able to keep up anyway.
Which would be pretty clearly spelled out if that were the case, as it would have massive implications.
Requizen wrote: I think there's just a confused interpretation of this passage:
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
Being part of the unit isn't necessarily the same as being the same type as the unit. It just means he's part of the unit for targeting, testing, rolling reserves, etc. It doesn't state that he changes his type, or loses/gains rules (except in the case of "if one model has this rule the unit does").
Yeah, if he counted as part of the unit in that way, he'd become a beast and be able to keep up anyway.
Which would be pretty clearly spelled out if that were the case, as it would have massive implications.
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
"Perfectly RAW" is stretching it. If you move out of coherency in the Movement/Shooting phase, he's no longer part of the unit. He can't reattach to the unit in the Assault phase, only in the Movement Phase. So unless you're making a conga line out of your Wraiths to keep him in coherency during Movement, he'll lag behind in ~2~3 turns.
The wraiths stretch out about 4" to make it happen.
They move 12" with the trailing wraith at the 8" mark. The D Lord winds up at the 6" mark.
You lose fleet and roll for the run move during the shooting phase.
During assault you use the jet pack. Roll 2d6 and move him average 7" but no more than 2" in front of the wraith pack.
And it's perfectly RAW. You are dealing with a mixed unit.
It's BAO/LVO/Adepticon legal.
There's a Tau crisis suit issue and Tau drone issue which blazed the way for this to happen.
Thats nice except for the part where BAO/LVO and adepticon =/= RAW in the slightest.
The unit type is not jet pack which is the requirement for the assault move so he can't assault jump.
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
I'd argue that RAW is most certainly not on your side.
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
So, that destroyer lord is counted as part of a beast unit - not a jet pack unit. And, only jet pack units can make thrust moves.
At the very least, the RAW is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
Though, even if people accept your RAW, it still sounds like a dubious strategy.
For one, whatever else happens, you've lost fleet. And, with a unit dragging you back, this could scupper you on a crucial turn.
For two, it seems like you'll really struggle to make the Destroyer Lord keep up without also slowing the Wraiths down. In particular, I'm struggling to see how you'll maintain coherency, whilst still moving the wraiths their full distance. Maybe if you run them in a line, though that in turn leaves you open to your opponent pushing you back by killing the front wraith. And, this is all assuming the lord never once fluffs his thrust move. If he rolls snake-eyes then you're stuck either barely moving next turn or else breaking off the lord.
Issue has already been on YMDC.
You need to key in on the fact that at root is an issue about dealing with mixed units.
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
"Perfectly RAW" is stretching it. If you move out of coherency in the Movement/Shooting phase, he's no longer part of the unit. He can't reattach to the unit in the Assault phase, only in the Movement Phase. So unless you're making a conga line out of your Wraiths to keep him in coherency during Movement, he'll lag behind in ~2~3 turns.
The wraiths stretch out about 4" to make it happen.
They move 12" with the trailing wraith at the 8" mark. The D Lord winds up at the 6" mark.
You lose fleet and roll for the run move during the shooting phase.
During assault you use the jet pack. Roll 2d6 and move him average 7" but no more than 2" in front of the wraith pack.
And it's perfectly RAW. You are dealing with a mixed unit.
It's BAO/LVO/Adepticon legal.
There's a Tau crisis suit issue and Tau drone issue which blazed the way for this to happen.
Thats nice except for the part where BAO/LVO and adepticon =/= RAW in the slightest.
The unit type is not jet pack which is the requirement for the assault move so he can't assault jump.
col_impact wrote: You can put a Destroyer Lord with wraiths and use the assault move to catch him up so that the wraiths aren't slowed down. It's perfectly RAW and the way the large tourneys play it.
I'd argue that RAW is most certainly not on your side.
"While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters."
So, that destroyer lord is counted as part of a beast unit - not a jet pack unit. And, only jet pack units can make thrust moves.
At the very least, the RAW is not as clear-cut as you make it out to be.
Though, even if people accept your RAW, it still sounds like a dubious strategy.
For one, whatever else happens, you've lost fleet. And, with a unit dragging you back, this could scupper you on a crucial turn.
For two, it seems like you'll really struggle to make the Destroyer Lord keep up without also slowing the Wraiths down. In particular, I'm struggling to see how you'll maintain coherency, whilst still moving the wraiths their full distance. Maybe if you run them in a line, though that in turn leaves you open to your opponent pushing you back by killing the front wraith. And, this is all assuming the lord never once fluffs his thrust move. If he rolls snake-eyes then you're stuck either barely moving next turn or else breaking off the lord.
Issue has already been on YMDC.
You need to key in on the fact that at root is an issue about dealing with mixed units.
Jetpack or jetbike ICs joined to beasts/cavalry etc is something that's been working for quite awhile. It might be new to necrons but it's not new.
There's been plenty of 7th edition discussion on the matter. It's one of the corner stones of nearly all of the nastiest xenos deathstars in this edition and last. Its legal.
On relics, I don't believe the mephrit dynasty relics can be mixed with codex. Reason is the dynasty states they are for use with the detachment and formations below (something to that effect, dont have my rules handy). Id like to be proven wrong though since there are some great relics in there.
dominuschao wrote: Jetpack or jetbike ICs joined to beasts/cavalry etc is something that's been working for quite awhile. It might be new to necrons but it's not new.
There's been plenty of 7th edition discussion on the matter. It's one of the corner stones of nearly all of the nastiest xenos deathstars in this edition and last. Its legal.
On relics, I don't believe the mephrit dynasty relics can be mixed with codex. Reason is the dynasty states they are for use with the detachment and formations below (something to that effect, dont have my rules handy). Id like to be proven wrong though since there are some great relics in there.
You can mix them only in a Mephrit detachment or formation, effectively.
So for example: A Decurion is not a Mephrit detachment, so you can't take a God Shackle for your C'tan. On the other hand, if you took a Conclave of the Burning One, you could have one of those two Crypteks take a God Shackle.
Hollismason wrote: The Ghost Ark puts out a fething gak load of shots in the Decurion Formation, Reclamation legion because the Warriors inside it I believe have Relentless. Am I not correct on that? Roll up on someone and dump out 30 Gauss Shots. I guess that's a YMDC question.
I mean 1 Ghost Ark Moving w/ 10 Warriors puts out 50 Gauss shots in 12" and 30 at 24"
Gauss now wounds on a 6 regardless so that's a bonus, but who cares, 50 Gauss Shots should put a dent in just about most things.
can you help me out with the math on this one? how are you getting 50 shots at 12" and 30 shots at 24"?
rapidfire from the 10 warriors inside gets you 20 shots, then each array gets you salvo of 10. so im getting 20+10+10 = 40 at 12" if the GA didnt move (if it did then the GA array puts out 5 shots each instead of 10).
stormcraft wrote: Nebuloscope only give ignore cover for the weapons of the model. I dont think they work on quad gun as they are not weapons of the tomb blade, just used by them
The Rule Says: "..all his wepaons have the.......ignore cover rule"
I had a similar issue with one of my peeps who was playing DE back in 6th edition. In the previous DE codex one of his HQs was manning the Icarus and one the HQ's rules stated he was a great shot...such and such "with his weapons" and when I brought to the attention of others in our club for a ruling I lost and the DE player got to fire it as if it was "his gun"...but that was at my club so there you go. I don't see that wording in the new dex though.
Hollismason wrote: The Ghost Ark puts out a fething gak load of shots in the Decurion Formation, Reclamation legion because the Warriors inside it I believe have Relentless. Am I not correct on that? Roll up on someone and dump out 30 Gauss Shots. I guess that's a YMDC question.
I mean 1 Ghost Ark Moving w/ 10 Warriors puts out 50 Gauss shots in 12" and 30 at 24"
Gauss now wounds on a 6 regardless so that's a bonus, but who cares, 50 Gauss Shots should put a dent in just about most things.
can you help me out with the math on this one? how are you getting 50 shots at 12" and 30 shots at 24"?
rapidfire from the 10 warriors inside gets you 20 shots, then each array gets you salvo of 10. so im getting 20+10+10 = 40 at 12" if the GA didnt move (if it did then the GA array puts out 5 shots each instead of 10).
While I'm not sure what's going on with his math, vehicles are relentless and therefore the ghost ark's Salvo weapons will fire 10 shots regardless of whether or not it moved.
I think he is taking both sides of the ghost ark for the 30 shots.
10+10 for ghost ark +10 for warriors = 30
The 50 10*2 from warriors with rapid fire +10+10 both sides from ghost ark again. Maybe he was thinking of them with rapid fire and forgot to "add" a side?
Also on another note how good is a full unit of flayed ones with a destro lord? SLower than the wraithwing but is it more deadly or as durable/close to as the new wraiths?
Straight up (without artifacts or upgrades) I think wraith's are the most durable non vehicle units in the codex.
You can however get around 2.5 flayed ones for the cost of 1 x wraith.
Point for point I am not sure who is better, wraiths or flayed ones... would love to see someone mathahmmer "Flayed wing" (Fling?) against "Wraithwing"
bodazoka wrote: Straight up (without artifacts or upgrades) I think wraith's are the most durable non vehicle units in the codex.
You can however get around 2.5 flayed ones for the cost of 1 x wraith.
Point for point I am not sure who is better, wraiths or flayed ones... would love to see someone mathahmmer "Flayed wing" (Fling?) against "Wraithwing"
Also infiltrate and deepstrike for what its worth. I'm thinking flayed ones win out damage wise and wraiths win out toughness wise. Maybe run them to geather as a hammer and anvil strat
In the context of Void Blade / Particle caster TPs, that Triarch formation is still pretty legit, the more I think about it. Obviously effecting all units would have been sweet, but both Rending and Entropic are meaning full rules in conjunction with rerolls.
Obviously not nearly as good as it would have been otherwise, but if you are considering both units, that's a pretty good way to bring them. Marking a target for TP death per turn doesn't take away what the Stalker is doing other wise, both in shooting and buffing with the 6 range. And adding reroll to hit and wound/armor pan to either Praetorian is still pretty legit. In fact, if you had one of each it would be a pretty good way of covering both bases. Giving you a sold medium / heavy infantry counter and a solid heavy vehicle / light infantry counter, depending on which you needed more each turn.
5 VB/PC on the charge against a marked vehicle give you, what, 5.4 HPs? That's not too shabby lol.
buddha wrote: So my big question is how to equip preatorians. Rod or particle caster and voidblade.
It's not even a contest, the Rod is superior. Increased shooting attack, and you strike with AP2 an Init Value. Easy!
I don't know, man, I thought that at first as well, but at least in the context of the formation, those VB/PCs absolutely shred vehicles. They are also superior to 4+ saves or better, and with rending, are still not awful against harder targets. The pistol is also better at vehicle hunting, with the improved S.
I think the two options are actually pretty well balanced, the more I think about it. Outside of the formation, I might lean toward Rods, in it, though, I'm really liking the Idea of VB/PC.
ShadarLogoth wrote: In the context of Void Blade / Particle caster TPs, that Triarch formation is still pretty legit, the more I think about it. Obviously effecting all units would have been sweet, but both Rending and Entropic are meaning full rules in conjunction with rerolls.
Obviously not nearly as good as it would have been otherwise, but if you are considering both units, that's a pretty good way to bring them. Marking a target for TP death per turn doesn't take away what the Stalker is doing other wise, both in shooting and buffing with the 6 range. And adding reroll to hit and wound/armor pan to either Praetorian is still pretty legit. In fact, if you had one of each it would be a pretty good way of covering both bases. Giving you a sold medium / heavy infantry counter and a solid heavy vehicle / light infantry counter, depending on which you needed more each turn.
5 VB/PC on the charge against a marked vehicle give you, what, 5.4 HPs? That's not too shabby lol.
buddha wrote: So my big question is how to equip preatorians. Rod or particle caster and voidblade.
It's not even a contest, the Rod is superior. Increased shooting attack, and you strike with AP2 an Init Value. Easy!
I don't know, man, I thought that at first as well, but at least in the context of the formation, those VB/PCs absolutely shred vehicles. They are also superior to 4+ saves or better, and with rending, are still not awful against harder targets. The pistol is also better at vehicle hunting, with the improved S.
I think the two options are actually pretty well balanced, the more I think about it. Outside of the formation, I might lean toward Rods, in it, though, I'm really liking the Idea of VB/PC.
A couple of things worth noting though, is that most vehicles are AV 10 in the rear anyway, so even with the Rods, you've got a 33% for a glance or a pen on the armor penetration roll anyway. This really only gives the Voidblades an advantage on Vehicles with AV 11+ on the Rear
I think in the context of the whole Necron Army though, the Rods bring something that we don't have a lot of, which is consistent AP2.
Destroyer Lord w/ Veil of Darkness, Warscythe, Phylactery, Phase Shifter , Ressurection Orb , 230
Elites
7 Lychguard w/ Warscythes
Triarch Stalker w/ Heavy Gauss Cannon
Troops
5 Immortals w/ NightScythe (215)
5 Immortals w/ NightScythe
Fast Attack
5 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
5 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
8 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, Nebuloscopes
H. Support
2 H. Destroyers
2 H. Destroyers
I like the list, Hollisman, although I would put one of the Night Scythers with the LG/Dlord.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
A couple of things worth noting though, is that most vehicles are AV 10 in the rear anyway, so even with the Rods, you've got a 33% for a glance or a pen on the armor penetration roll anyway. This really only gives the Voidblades an advantage on Vehicles with AV 11+ on the Rear
I think in the context of the whole Necron Army though, the Rods bring something that we don't have a lot of, which is consistent AP2.
Yeah, that's fair. Still, averaging over an HP per base against AV 12+ is pretty nuts (assuming against a Marked Triarch Formation target). If you got some tough nuts to crack, they're a good option to have. I think it's pretty good Dex design that we have both.
bodazoka wrote: Straight up (without artifacts or upgrades) I think wraith's are the most durable non vehicle units in the codex.
You can however get around 2.5 flayed ones for the cost of 1 x wraith.
Point for point I am not sure who is better, wraiths or flayed ones... would love to see someone mathahmmer "Flayed wing" (Fling?) against "Wraithwing"
So i got curious and did some math. Please correct me if im wrong.
(Note: these are without upgrades or taking into account synergies with other units/formations. The wraiths do have rending for on a result of 6 on a To Hit roll, it's an automatic wound at AP2.)
(Edit: type: meant to say WS4 instead of BS4 and corrected mistake for wraiths during wound count)
(Edit2: Also wraiths are now beasts and no longer get HoW)
bodazoka wrote: Straight up (without artifacts or upgrades) I think wraith's are the most durable non vehicle units in the codex.
You can however get around 2.5 flayed ones for the cost of 1 x wraith.
Point for point I am not sure who is better, wraiths or flayed ones... would love to see someone mathahmmer "Flayed wing" (Fling?) against "Wraithwing"
So i got curious and did some math. Please correct me if im wrong.
(Note: these are without upgrades or taking into account synergies with other units/formations. The wraiths do have rending for on a result of 6 on a To Hit roll, it's an automatic wound at AP2.)
Nice chart, but I'm pretty sure you counted the wraiths as S4. If they get 6 hits against a T4 opponent that should generate 5 W and 1 rend (the rend being one of the 5 wounds)
Sasori wrote: A pack of 20 Flayed ones is amazingly durable, and hard hitting. They Just Shred Stuff in Melee.
The issue with them, is you are either pigeonholed into deepstriking, or footslogging slowly across the board.
The Math has been done in the N&R Thread, and FOs pretty much (easily) beat anything in combat, with the exception of things they cannot wound.
Footslogging isn't so bad when you consider infiltrate will get you a minimum of 6" closer, and for the measly "tax" of one unit of warriors and a unit of tomb blades over a standard cad, that nice big blob of reanimated killyness has 4+ Super-FNP. You yourself have said tomb blades are hardly a tax at all and at 13 ppm, FO's are a steal. If you're worried about durability, invest a few points in the Overlord you have to bring regardless and tank away. I don't see that unit as being easy to remove at all, especially if you have a unit of 4+ RP Wraiths bearing down on the opponent. Now that's a good one-two punch. Necrons do assault like BA, SW, CSM, and Daemons only wish they could.
bodazoka wrote: Straight up (without artifacts or upgrades) I think wraith's are the most durable non vehicle units in the codex.
You can however get around 2.5 flayed ones for the cost of 1 x wraith.
Point for point I am not sure who is better, wraiths or flayed ones... would love to see someone mathahmmer "Flayed wing" (Fling?) against "Wraithwing"
So i got curious and did some math. Please correct me if im wrong.
(Note: these are without upgrades or taking into account synergies with other units/formations. The wraiths do have rending for on a result of 6 on a To Hit roll, it's an automatic wound at AP2.)
Nice chart, but I'm pretty sure you counted the wraiths as S4. If they get 6 hits against a T4 opponent that should generate 5 W and 1 rend (the rend being one of the 5 wounds)
1700 points that leaves some points to swap weapons on the Stalkers and upgrade to Olord. Maybe up the TBs or get some extra TPs.
Pretty nasty, though. 30 T5 3+/4+ RP wounds + 20 T4 4+/4+ RP wounds and 5 T4 3+4+ RP wounds.. You could split the Stalkers up with each troop selection allowing you to still spread out, and giving each one BS 5.
Oh, and obviously you would put two of each weapon profile with each Stalker, and having one formation split, to best maximize your formation abilities. 10 VB/PC guys should tear right through a Knight, even with striking last.
More durable on a 1 to 1 easily. Flayed ones have numbers and way more damage from the looks of it. What are the things we can give to a destroyer lord and stick in a flayed one unit to make it even nastier?
Tank Olord + Phylactery + Phase Shifter + Thermasite + Nightmare Shroud + Res Orb ( 205 )
Cryptek + Chronomotron + Res Orb ( 115 )
20 Warriors + GA ( 365 )
10 Warriors + GA (235)
10 Warriors + GA (235)
1155
You get the virtually unkillable Olord (saving like 98% of all AP 3 or worse wounds, and 87.5% of AP 2 or better (95% when the RO is popped).
And 20 Warriors with 4+/5++ RP 4+ withe rerolls to 1s, backed by 3 GAs. In short, nobody is taking that gak down.
70 Gauss Shots at 24+ range gives you a solid start on anti vehicle (almost 8 HPs per turn). Pair that up with some Stalkers for good measure.
I don't know, though, is it worth losing OS on those units for the Re-rolls to 1s RP? It sure would be nice for that rock hard brick to have OS.... hmmm...
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oberron wrote: More durable on a 1 to 1 easily. Flayed ones have numbers and way more damage from the looks of it. What are the things we can give to a destroyer lord and stick in a flayed one unit to make it even nastier?
Yeah, they come out pretty close, now. With the 5+ RP they are pretty close to even against bolter fire, particularly if you are giving the Wraiths Whip Coils (3 Whip Wraiths =10 FOs, roughly). It takes 54 bolter hits to kill 3 Wraiths, which would kill 9 FOs. The FOs pull substantially ahead with the 4+, and obviously even more so with a Res Orb or rerolls to 1s.
AP 3 and better will obviously favor the Wraiths a bit, but S7 will favor the FOs, S8/9 the Wraiths (unless the RP is being boosted for the FOs), and S10 FOs. But all and all it's pretty close between the two, at base, with the FOs being able to pull away with RP buffs.
Tomb Blades can get 3+ armor +1 cover and ignore cover from upgrades. They can take a 2 point upgrade for a S6 blast. literally 10 S6 blast that ignore cover could wreck the only real threat to wraith spam... horde orks.
Super Heavy and Heavy vehicles now getting a 6+ IWND is fun. The Tesseract Vault got better as it now has 4 tesla spheres effectively making it the obselisk but with the Ctan add on. I could see this vehicle in a good number of necron list.
Immortals are the new MSU troop choice.
I have difficulty finding a unit that I would not take in this new book. It reminds me of 5th edition grey knights. Ide say scarabs are the only thing I would not take atm as they are 20pts a pop. Other then that this book can get very scary really fast.
Tomb Blades can get 3+ armor +1 cover and ignore cover from upgrades. They can take a 2 point upgrade for a S6 blast. literally 10 S6 blast that ignore cover could wreck the only real threat to wraith spam... horde orks.
Super Heavy and Heavy vehicles now getting a 6+ IWND is fun. The Tesseract Vault got better as it now has 4 tesla spheres effectively making it the obselisk but with the Ctan add on. I could see this vehicle in a good number of necron list.
Immortals are the new MSU troop choice.
I have difficulty finding a unit that I would not take in this new book. It reminds me of 5th edition grey knights. Ide say scarabs are the only thing I would not take atm as they are 20pts a pop. Other then that this book can get very scary really fast.
Yeah that's what my list does that I posted previously Veil Lord Destroyer Lord. Didn't add Flayed Ones though.
Then you just back that up by Wraiths.A Decked out Nigh Invulnerable D lord is the best.
D-Lord with Veil of Darkness , Phylactery , Phase Shifter , Warscythe , Nightmare Shroud will run you 200+
However, he's 2+ , 4+ , 5+, then 5+ It Will not di
Has anyone noticed that Orikan the Diviner gives his unit re-rolling saving throws of 1? Specifically saving throws, not reanimation. Lychgard with 3++ (re-roll 1s)/4+++ (re-roll 1s)!
This allows for a LOT of re-rollable 2+ saves; Nightmare Shroud, Zahndrek, Imotekh etc.
@hollismason-The D-lord you have there is really durable but way too expensive for what he brings IMO. Hes 200+ points to teleport and survive, he doesn't really add much to a unit anymore IMO. MSS MADE destroyer lords because they invalidated the things that counter necron CC units. Now the CC units are all so much better they don't even need him lol.
Just got the book. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 9 basic destroyers (3x3) to use. Lame. I'm thinking that the decurion is just to restrictive to use despite the benefits.
Yeah. I would probably take a Lord with Veil and Solar Staff as a teleporter. Jump over and protect the unit he's ferrying around from shooting for one turn. And that kit is pretty affordable.
buddha wrote: Just got the book. The destroyer cult requires a minimum of 9 basic destroyers (3x3) to use. Lame. I'm thinking that the decurion is just to restrictive to use despite the benefits.
What where is this restriction listed? Afaik destroyers are 1+ per unit.
There's no restriction in Zahndrekh's Adaptive Tactics rule about having to stick to the same table, so he can switch back and forth between Necron traits and BRB traits.
Kangodo wrote: Bad news, each unit of Destroyers needs at least three models.
Where are you guys finding this? I was considering multiples of 1 hvy Ds. Thus would wreck that idea but I can't find the restriction.
1. We have a Fast Attack-slot for Destroyers (1 to 6 models) and one can become a Heavy.
2. We also have a Heavy Support-slot for Heavy Destroyers (1-3) models.
3. And we have a Formation for a Destroyer Cult, where you can take three units of Destroyers that all need at least 3 models.
Kangodo wrote: Bad news, each unit of Destroyers needs at least three models.
Where are you guys finding this? I was considering multiples of 1 hvy Ds. Thus would wreck that idea but I can't find the restriction.
1. We have a Fast Attack-slot for Destroyers (1 to 6 models) and one can become a Heavy.
2. We also have a Heavy Support-slot for Heavy Destroyers (1-3) models.
3. And we have a Formation for a Destroyer Cult, where you can take three units of Destroyers that all need at least 3 models.
I hope that makes everything clear
I think what they are referring to is page 91 of the codex, the destroyer entry says the unit can be only 1 model.
You guys need to look at page 104 for the destroyer cult restrictions
Kangodo wrote: Bad news, each unit of Destroyers needs at least three models.
?
Min unit size is 1 Destroyer
Automatically Appended Next Post: The stupidest thing in this new codex is GA capacity is 10 warriors and min unit size of warriors is 10. Wtf?
Really, not the dedicated transport Praetorians can take but never use?
What makes you think Praetorians can't use a NS?
Jump Infantry.
Jump Infantry cannot go on transports 'unless specifically stated otherwise'. The codex line that says the Praetorians can select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport fulfills the 'unless specifically stated otherwise'
Pfff, the Apocalypse Infinite Phalanx requires 10 units of Warriors.
Which means it went from a 50 model minimum to a minimum of 100 Warriors.
And that sucks, seeing as I own exactly 99 Necron Warriors!
Kangodo wrote: Bad news, each unit of Destroyers needs at least three models.
?
Min unit size is 1 Destroyer
Automatically Appended Next Post: The stupidest thing in this new codex is GA capacity is 10 warriors and min unit size of warriors is 10. Wtf?
Really, not the dedicated transport Praetorians can take but never use?
What makes you think Praetorians can't use a NS?
Jump Infantry.
Jump Infantry cannot go on transports 'unless specifically stated otherwise'. The codex line that says the Praetorians can select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport fulfills the 'unless specifically stated otherwise'
Only issue with that is the dedicated transport rules don't say anything about ignoring unit types just because you've taken a transport as a dedicated transport. Just because they've selected it does not mean they have to deploy within the transport.
Kangodo wrote: Bad news, each unit of Destroyers needs at least three models.
?
Min unit size is 1 Destroyer
Automatically Appended Next Post: The stupidest thing in this new codex is GA capacity is 10 warriors and min unit size of warriors is 10. Wtf?
Really, not the dedicated transport Praetorians can take but never use?
What makes you think Praetorians can't use a NS?
Jump Infantry.
Jump Infantry cannot go on transports 'unless specifically stated otherwise'. The codex line that says the Praetorians can select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport fulfills the 'unless specifically stated otherwise'
Only issue with that is the dedicated transport rules don't say anything about ignoring unit types just because you've taken a transport as a dedicated transport. Just because they've selected it does not mean they have to deploy within the transport.
The Praetorians themselves only need to be granted an exception. The codex line that allows them to select a NS as a dedicated transport grants them that exception.
Kangodo wrote: Bad news, each unit of Destroyers needs at least three models.
?
Min unit size is 1 Destroyer
Automatically Appended Next Post: The stupidest thing in this new codex is GA capacity is 10 warriors and min unit size of warriors is 10. Wtf?
Really, not the dedicated transport Praetorians can take but never use?
What makes you think Praetorians can't use a NS?
Jump Infantry.
Jump Infantry cannot go on transports 'unless specifically stated otherwise'. The codex line that says the Praetorians can select a Night Scythe as a dedicated transport fulfills the 'unless specifically stated otherwise'
Only issue with that is the dedicated transport rules don't say anything about ignoring unit types just because you've taken a transport as a dedicated transport. Just because they've selected it does not mean they have to deploy within the transport.
The Praetorians themselves only need to be granted an exception. The codex line that allows them to select a NS as a dedicated transport grants them that exception.
How does it grant them an exception when the rules of DTs do not grant them an exception?
Technically he seems to be right, permission to take a Dedicated Transport isn't really permission to ignore the restrictions on actually entering it.
But I would slap anyone that tried to argue that in a match
Also: People, please learn to use spoiler-tags or at least remove some quotes.
We have, within one quote, talks about the Destroyer unit-size and NS/TP's.
Kangodo wrote: Technically he seems to be right, permission to take a Dedicated Transport isn't really permission to ignore the restrictions on actually entering it.
But I would slap anyone that tried to argue that in a match
Also: People, please learn to use spoiler-tags or at least remove some quotes.
We have, within one quote, talks about the Destroyer unit-size and NS/TP's.
Yeah, sorry about that. Honestly, if the discussion about NS goes on any longer it'd be worth bringing it to a new thread YMDC.
Kangodo wrote: Technically he seems to be right, permission to take a Dedicated Transport isn't really permission to ignore the restrictions on actually entering it.
But I would slap anyone that tried to argue that in a match
Also: People, please learn to use spoiler-tags or at least remove some quotes.
We have, within one quote, talks about the Destroyer unit-size and NS/TP's.
The rules simply say Jump infantry cannot 'unless specifically stated otherwise.'
At issue really is whether the express permission the Praetorians have to take the NS as a dedicated transport fulfills the 'unless specifically stated otherwise.'
Intent is clear and 'stated otherwise' is vague so I see no issue taking the obvious.
Kangodo wrote: Pfff, the Apocalypse Infinite Phalanx requires 10 units of Warriors.
Which means it went from a 50 model minimum to a minimum of 100 Warriors.
And that sucks, seeing as I own exactly 99 Necron Warriors!
Dr. Delorean wrote: To be honest, I probably wouldn't take the Destroyer Cult as part of a larger Decurion.
However, I would consider taking it just as a formation by itself.
What we need to decide is whether normal Destroyers are good enough now that taking them in order to get the Cult benefits isn't too much of a tax.
Not sure in the long run but I'm going to be trying the destroyer cult in the decurion. I have 15 from 4th edition so I may be biased in using them again. They are super survivable with the 2 wounds and the 4+ RP and T5 and their formation bonus helps with the chance to glance the ever present mech armies as necrons needs the mobile firepower since our long range shooting is pretty bad.
Dr. Delorean wrote: To be honest, I probably wouldn't take the Destroyer Cult as part of a larger Decurion.
However, I would consider taking it just as a formation by itself.
What we need to decide is whether normal Destroyers are good enough now that taking them in order to get the Cult benefits isn't too much of a tax.
I'm leaning towards yes. 24" S5 AP3 guns were never bad, but they were just really too fragile for the cost. Even without the Decurion detachment (or Cryptek, I guess), gaining a second wound and what is essentially FNP fixes that issue. And now that they can JSJ with cover as well.
Though Jump gave them the possibility to fly up to their target quickly, the flexibility of being Jet Pack is much better. All of this while not taking a points increase is quite good in the long run, they're like cheaper Crisis Suits, just without the weapon options or Drones.
With the transcendent c'tan in the codex in a heavy support slot. Does that mean that the more powerful trans c'tan can now only be taken in an escalation/apoc game and not fit in the Lords of War slot in a normal game?
The Nightbringer. Fleshbane + Powers of the C'tan seems like a nice combination. He also has the Gaze of Death which will kill a lot of tough-armoured units ánd keep him alive.
The T-C'tan, despite having THREE, is something I will never play unless my friends allow me to use his old rules in Apocalypse. Both because he is bad and out of principle.
xpress907 wrote: With the transcendent c'tan in the codex in a heavy support slot. Does that mean that the more powerful trans c'tan can now only be taken in an escalation/apoc game and not fit in the Lords of War slot in a normal game?
No, it means that the model you paid 160 USD for (and for an Obelisk) is now weaker than a $37.25 model. The old rules are outdated and can no longer be used.
But Orks kept their Stompa, nothing wrong with that
Kangodo wrote: The Nightbringer.
Fleshbane + Powers of the C'tan seems like a nice combination.
He also has the Gaze of Death which will kill a lot of tough-armoured units ánd keep him alive.
The T-C'tan, despite having THREE, is something I will never play unless my friends allow me to use his old rules in Apocalypse.
Both because he is bad and out of principle.
xpress907 wrote: With the transcendent c'tan in the codex in a heavy support slot. Does that mean that the more powerful trans c'tan can now only be taken in an escalation/apoc game and not fit in the Lords of War slot in a normal game?
No, it means that the model you paid 160 USD for (and for an Obelisk) is now weaker than a $37.25 model.
The old rules are outdated and can no longer be used.
But Orks kept their Stompa, nothing wrong with that
woah, so ur telling me that transliminal stride and wave of withering no longer exist in any sense, any game type?
The Transcendent C'tan has been clumsily retconned out by slapping his name on a generic C'tan Shard rather than making any sort of genuine effort to tone him down, yes.
I'm going full Nightbringer. Might even try him out in a Conclave in higher points games, effectively making him a turn one deep striking T8 8 wound Monstrous Creature with variable FNP, and two 12 inch shooting powers (Gaze of Death, and the S5 AP3 Assault 6 of two Staves of Light) with powers of the C'tan as a bonus.
Points effective? Probably, almost certainly, not.
changemod wrote: The Transcendent C'tan has been clumsily retconned out by slapping his name on a generic C'tan Shard rather than making any sort of genuine effort to tone him down, yes.
I'm going full Nightbringer. Might even try him out in a Conclave in higher points games, effectively making him a turn one deep striking T8 8 wound Monstrous Creature with variable FNP, and two 12 inch shooting powers (Gaze of Death, and the S5 AP3 Assault 6 of two Staves of Light) with powers of the C'tan as a bonus.
Points effective? Probably, almost certainly, not.
Since Conclave of the Burning One can be taken as a separate formation, can you take a veil on one of the crypteks from this formation and still have a veil available to take on the primary detachment (or decurion)?
Nice idea, Changemod!
Though I would make some changes:
Cryptek 1: God Shackle + Veil of Darkness
Cryptek 2: The Solar Staff
The Solar Staff is too cheap to ignore in this Formation.
xpress907 wrote: Since Conclave of the Burning One can be taken as a separate formation, can you take a veil on one of the crypteks from this formation and still have a veil available to take on the primary detachment (or decurion)?
Nope, Relics are limited to one per army.
They are unique items, just as unique as Imothek himself.
Nightbringer is the clear winner out of the Stargods. Deceiver might be worthwhile if you're against something like Orks or Daemons who hate to fail Morale tests. Or I guess if you want to do Deployment shenanigans.
Trans is pretty worthless. Difficult terrain bubble, woohoo.
Nightbringer kills in Assault, kills in shooting, and can regain wounds. Put him in a Conclave and congrats, you have a squad that no one wants to go near and will try to blast the hell out of before it gets close.
Alcibiades wrote: Too be honest, the "superpowerful shard of a star god, and even more powerful shard of a star god" thing was dumb.
The idea was that C'tan Shards are just a fragment of the real Star Gods.
A Transcendent C'tan was a fusion of twelve to a hundred Shards.
So it is quite ironic that the Shards are now better than the Transcendent.
Seriously, it wouldn't be all that hard to make a LoW version far more toned down than the original.
Off the top of my head: Take the one we have, add a point each of S and T to make it immune to small arms, raise wounds to 6, make it gargantuan instead of monstrous, let it roll twice on the powers table and make Writhing Worldscape inflict a S4 AP- hit to everyone within 6 inches at the start of each movement phase.
I don't know if this has been mentioned, but it seems to me that one result of the changes to RP is that Necron basic troops no longer just fold in CC. They're pretty reasonable at it in fact.
col_impact wrote: Keep in mind that this is the toned down codex. Wait for the supplements around the corner.
I think Exterminatus was our supplement.
Otherwise they would have done something with the Cryptek-edition.
And if we get one, it won't do us any good.
A supplement usually gives Relics, Traits and Detachments/Formations.
What we need is a new unit called "Sorry for the feth-up, here is a good Gargantuan Creature. Please forgive us?"
That and a serious backing on the Scarab-nerfs..
col_impact wrote: Keep in mind that this is the toned down codex. Wait for the supplements around the corner.
I think Exterminatus was our supplement.
Otherwise they would have done something with the Cryptek-edition.
And if we get one, it won't do us any good.
A supplement usually gives Relics, Traits and Detachments/Formations.
What we need is a new unit called "Sorry for the feth-up, here is a good Gargantuan Creature. Please forgive us?"
That and a serious backing on the Scarab-nerfs..
Well... maybe FW will finally get around to updating the FW related Necron rules... oh who am I kidding they're probably too busy sculpting Leman Russ' buttocks.
So what's the thought on the D. Lord attached to wraiths. It pretty much makes him a 6" moving infantry model. Not sure if wraiths are going to work without the d. Lord attached?
NecronLord3 wrote: So what's the thought on the D. Lord attached to wraiths. It pretty much makes him a 6" moving infantry model. Not sure if wraiths are going to work without the d. Lord attached?
Why wouldn't they work without the Dlord?
PE is nice, but it's not the end all be all. The T5 on them means that the Dlord being used as a meatsheild isn't near as valuable, and with the loss of MSS the Dlord isn't near what he used to be in challenges.
Wraiths got a lot better, and the Dlord got a lot worse. I don't think he is needed at all anymore.
I'd like to take the Destroyer Cult with the Praetorian formation - he can deep strike with a unit of them, and give them a bonus against a unit that the Stalker doesn't target. The Stalker will also help out the Destroyers by making them essentially BS10.
So looking at the voidblade and hyperphase sword it looks like the voidblade is better in everyway aside from MEQ. For TEq voidblade has a chance of ap2 and with rending and entropic strike has a chance to pen av13 and can glance av14.
Of course the warscythe is better than both and the voidreaper better than the warscythe for 10pts more (but is limit 1 since relic). So if you need to free up some points and the like and you have the ability to take either the voidblade or the hyperphase sword.
Dlord in Flayed one deepstrike with the Solar staff is a bad day for the enemy as long as you don't mess up the scatter. The can't assault restriction the the deep strike won't matter as much if everything becomes snapshot at the flayed one unit. Is anything else a must take for this unit? I think a res orb would be better suited than the phase shifter but both can be nice and have their place but neither are must haves for this.
Or would it be better/cheaper to just stick a cryptek in there with the veil of darkness and a chronometron for the 5++ to everything? 115pts for the tek and 125-150 for the Dlord. Risk the shooting phase for the 5++/4+++rp or be safe with snap shots(and immune to blast) and have PE. Hmm it looks like the Dlord is the better case
NecronLord3 wrote: So what's the thought on the D. Lord attached to wraiths. It pretty much makes him a 6" moving infantry model. Not sure if wraiths are going to work without the d. Lord attached?
Why wouldn't they work without the Dlord?
PE is nice, but it's not the end all be all. The T5 on them means that the Dlord being used as a meatsheild isn't near as valuable, and with the loss of MSS the Dlord isn't near what he used to be in challenges.
Wraiths got a lot better, and the Dlord got a lot worse. I don't think he is needed at all anymore.
His movement isn't the end of the world, especially since I'm pretty sure that he can still do his assault move to keep up with the wraiths for the most part. And having PE and a stock AP 2 guy that you can kit out to issue challenges and probably win is good news to me. And it totally melts tanks in CC too.
What kills it for me is the huge points sink into the Decurion as is (because you're probably going to give the wraiths RP if you want to run the D Lord with them) and he's not one of the compulsory choices for the Decurion. So you have to take an overlord (probably barge lord) in addition to the D Lord, and you would have to take the destroyer cult to have him at all (unless I missed something)
You could just skip the Decurion entirely and have a single formation of unkillable wraiths. Allows you to keep obsec but you lose the RP buffs. I think the enhanced RP is better in the end.
NecronLord3 wrote: So what's the thought on the D. Lord attached to wraiths. It pretty much makes him a 6" moving infantry model. Not sure if wraiths are going to work without the d. Lord attached?
Why wouldn't they work without the Dlord?
PE is nice, but it's not the end all be all. The T5 on them means that the Dlord being used as a meatsheild isn't near as valuable, and with the loss of MSS the Dlord isn't near what he used to be in challenges.
Wraiths got a lot better, and the Dlord got a lot worse. I don't think he is needed at all anymore.
What HQ would you prefer in the new edition?
I want a fast HQ who can work on his own.
So I see only the Barge Lord or the DLord here.
NecronLord3 wrote: So what's the thought on the D. Lord attached to wraiths. It pretty much makes him a 6" moving infantry model. Not sure if wraiths are going to work without the d. Lord attached?
Why wouldn't they work without the Dlord?
PE is nice, but it's not the end all be all. The T5 on them means that the Dlord being used as a meatsheild isn't near as valuable, and with the loss of MSS the Dlord isn't near what he used to be in challenges.
Wraiths got a lot better, and the Dlord got a lot worse. I don't think he is needed at all anymore.
What HQ would you prefer in the new edition?
I want a fast HQ who can work on his own.
So I see only the Barge Lord or the DLord here.
Since I'm taking the Decurion, it's the Bargelord.
