Necron's only defense to fliers are either flyers of our own or Sentry Pylons from Forgeworld.
Or tomb blades on a quad gun. Ignores cover transfers to the quad gun since the ability is on the tomb blade itself, not on one of it's weapons. no jink for the flyer = 1 less flyer.
I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?
Zuul wrote: I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?
He's better. His Staff no longer sucks since it has multiple uses, he's durable, doesn't try to pretend to be a melee character (new Staff + Gauntlet Of Fire makes for a decent shooting character and doesn't have rules to encourage otherwise) and his Lightning thing, while one use only at lower strength, has a better chance of actually hitting things. Much better than the previous incarnation for sure.
It's very much the polar opposite of the last codex lists that had the lack of AP2 as one of their main weaknesses. No idea if it works, but I'll definitely try it out when I have time to repaint all the destroyers I have from ye olden days, and get some preatorians.
Actually, I might be tempted to switch one of the arks to 8 more warriors, because the destroyer lord doesn't really have anywhere to go in this list and his PE would really benefit a big unit of warriors. I'd usually put the overlord there as well in that case. I usually prefer 10 warriors in an ark to 18 on foot, but maybe not here.
He can actually go with the Praetorians and is actually good with them especially if they have Rod of the Covenant, reroll 1s to hit, Reroll 1s to wound. Or he can go with the Praetorians that have the Particle Casters.
The only thing I find out of place is the 5 Immortals, probably best to just keep in reserve. I mean if you dropped anything it would be to drop a Ghost Ark to stick them in a Nightscythe, you'd have to figure something out to make up the points though.
I think it's a good list.It has a 2 5 man T5 CC squads with 3+ 4++ , not bad.
I think the prevailing dominant lists will be predominantly T5 lists.
Cryptek
Elite
Triarch Stalker
Troops
5 Immortals
5 Immortals
Fast Attack
10 Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscopes, Shieldvanes, Particle Beamers
3 Tomb Blades w/ NebuloScopes , Shield Vane
6 Wraiths
H. Support
2 H. Destroyers
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord w/ Phylactery , Phase Shifter, Warscythe
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
2 H. Destroyers
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun 18??
Sit back with a Quad Gun that ignores cover and blasts flyers out of the sky, along with 4 Las Cannon Shots that never miss and 2 ST8 AP2 shots. Good Luck shooting at the Tomb Blades, the Cryptek gives them +1 RP.
Zuul wrote: I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?
Eh, he's better now imo. He still makes it Night Fight turn 1, though he can't extend it. His lighting zappy thing is lower strength/AP, and can only be used once in a 48" bubble rather than board-wide, but is more reliable since it "hits" on 5s and you can decide when it goes off. His Staff is now a super duper Staff of Light , which is good because the old one sucked. He gained IWND and his set Warlord Trait is Reserve Manipulation (always great). Plus, his ability to help Flayed Ones DS effectively is better now that Flayed Ones don't suck.
Question on formation bonuses. If a unit in my formation gets wiped, does the remainder of the formation retain as long as it isnt reliant on the unit that was destroyed? For example, Reclamation Legion, if i started with only 1 tomb blade unit(which is the min) and it gets destroyed, do i still have the 'enhanced reanimation protocols' (reroll RP rolls of 1 for the OL and any unit from the formation within 12" of the OL) or do i lose it?
Yes you wouldn't lose any of the formation bonuses, unless those bonuses were model specific ( The Overlord's 12" rule for example). So if the Overlord died then that formation bonus would be lost because he's no longer there to provide it.
Zuul wrote: I don't have the new codex in hand yet, but I have a buddy who says the sky is falling because of what they did to Imotekh. Can anybody who's got the new dex shed some light on this for me?
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I just mean in total volume of fire your not really losing shots that badly. Also, with the Decurion formation the Warriors do have Relentless , I have no idea why you would charge someone with Necrons but if it was 1 or 2 guys I don't see why not.
You would charge someone with Necrons because they're rlikely to win against non-dedicated assault units.
Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless. I just have no desire to do the math. Also it's actually not a terrible tactic, Ghost Arks are open topped they can move , Warriors Get out and fire then charge.
If there were any possible way to get a Character with Warriors in a Ark then I would say "YES!", but since there is no way to do it with out losing models. It's a big no.
As fun as the new Destroyers are, I'm not seeing how they're worth it (for now).
A full Destroyer Cult runs about the same price as a Tau Firebase (~600pts)
We're getting about 20 shots to their 48, plus 3 anti-tank shots each.
We win vs. marines (3+, no cover or invul), 12 to 10. In any other case, Tau wins.
We gain:
-mobility (6" + JSJ vs Stand Still)
-A Destroyer Lord to hang out with Wraiths
-Marginally better AT
We lose:
-Volume of fire
-Effectiveness vs everyone except naked marines
-6-12" range
-Tank Hunter
-2+ saves
-Wierd Zahndrek combo
Someone prove to me that Destroyers are worth it... I really wish they were, but...
Hollismason wrote: Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless. I just have no desire to do the math.
They should be able to fairly well kick the crap out of any equivalently priced MEQ squad without power weapons.
caelim wrote: As fun as the new Destroyers are, I'm not seeing how they're worth it (for now).
A full Destroyer Cult runs about the same price as a Tau Firebase (~600pts)
We're getting about 20 shots to their 48, plus 3 anti-tank shots each.
We win vs. marines (3+, no cover or invul), 12 to 10. In any other case, Tau wins.
We gain:
-mobility (6" + JSJ vs Stand Still)
-A Destroyer Lord to hang out with Wraiths
-Marginally better AT
We lose:
-Volume of fire
-Effectiveness vs everyone except naked marines
-6-12" range
-Tank Hunter
-2+ saves
-Wierd Zahndrek combo
Someone prove to me that Destroyers are worth it... I really wish they were, but...
The whole formation comes with Shred and Tank Hunter. If taken with a Decurion they all have 4+ Invunerables against anything that isn't ST10 because their T5 2W models. That's not counting the ability to get cover saves and still roll their RP.
Also, AP3 is great against specific models.
This is why :
Extermination Protocols: All units in this Formation re-roll failed To Wound rolls and Armour Penetration rolls in the Shooting phase.
caelim wrote: As fun as the new Destroyers are, I'm not seeing how they're worth it (for now).
A full Destroyer Cult runs about the same price as a Tau Firebase (~600pts)
We're getting about 20 shots to their 48, plus 3 anti-tank shots each.
We win vs. marines (3+, no cover or invul), 12 to 10. In any other case, Tau wins.
We gain:
-mobility (6" + JSJ vs Stand Still)
-A Destroyer Lord to hang out with Wraiths
-Marginally better AT
We lose:
-Volume of fire
-Effectiveness vs everyone except naked marines
-6-12" range
-Tank Hunter
-2+ saves
-Wierd Zahndrek combo
Someone prove to me that Destroyers are worth it... I really wish they were, but...
Compared to Broadsides, T5 W2 3+/5+++ is functionally similar to T4 W2 2+. In fact, better in some cases, in that it's harder to ID and still gets saves against ID. If you put it in the Decurion, the 4+++ makes them statistically more survivable than Broadsides. If you stick the Overlord from the Decurion next to them so they can reroll 1s on RP rolls, they're even tougher.
Higher BS baseline (and with PE(Everything)), able to boost it even better to BS5 rerollable. Mobility, rather than just having to hunker in a corner. And while we're talking similar prices for "naked" versions of each Formation, the Tau start to pay quite a bit for their upgrades. All the Destroyers are paying for is more bodies/shooting.
Additionally, the Destroyers will get whatever bonuses come from being Necrons (Zahndrekh's warlord traits, rerolls, boosts from Stalker, etc), while the Tau are treated completely separately.
Being able to reroll to wound and to hit rolls is a huge advantage. Like just statistically it's huge. You've now got a model that more than 90% of the time hits, and get's to reroll any failed wounds and armour penetration with a Gauss Weapon.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless.
Almost all of them, I think.
Warriors with Ducalion are Marines +1 except for low Int and cost less. Immortals are comparable to Terminators in durability, and cost much less.
You're also gonna get the 10 Shots from that sides Gauss Flayer Array as well, so you're looking at 30 Attacks at BS4 ST4 before you go for the charge.
Uh.. math against a full 10 man Tactical Squad with bolters.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah we should just have a list of non dedicated units that Necron Warriors can beat the crap out of since they have relentless.
Almost all of them, I think.
Warriors with Ducalion are Marines +1 except for low Int and cost less. Immortals are comparable to Terminators in durability, and cost much less.
You're also gonna get the 10 Shots from that sides Gauss Flayer Array as well, so you're looking at 30 Attacks at BS4 ST4 before you go for the charge.
Uh.. math against a full 10 man Tactical Squad with bolters.
tetrisphreak wrote: Speaking of tournament level tactics, since adamantium lance is the new hotness i think i have a combo that helps fight it. It involves Zandrekh, a Triarch Stalker, a brick of 20 warriors, and Tau allies! Tau are allies of convenience, so they're still treated as "enemy" units. A buffmander and a unit of missile pod crisis suits offer some good firepower, while sharing their hit and run, tank hunter, etc that they get from the PENchip with zandrekh and his warriors. 40 BS5 tank-hunting gauss shots have a pretty good chance of downing a knight at close range, even with a 4++ reroll save. Add in hit and run from the VRTs the commander has, and they'll only have to suffer 1 round of D-swords and stomps before turning around to rapid fire and do it again.
That is hilarious! I hope tournaments allow this because it's the cheesiest thing I have ever heard lol.
Ok so I just noticed something interesting about monoliths. This goes out to all you crazy dudes who actually plan on running 2 or more of them (you know who you are).
Each monolith's eternity gate allows you to pull a unit from reserves and let it "disembark" from the monolith's gate. You may do this once per turn per monolith. However, it also lets you grab a unit from anywhere on the board and do the same. So, using two monoliths will allow you to have a "bridge" if you will from monolith to monolith. Not technically, but you will be able to summon 1 unit per turn per monolith from anywhere on the board to be somewhere near that monolith. If you then don't want them there (or need them elsewhere) you can bring them to the other monolith on a later turn.
How useful is this? I don't know. If you really want unlimited mobility, just take screamers or eldar jetbikes of any fashion. Or even a veil of darkness. But it's something that monolith players might not have noticed (and I know you guys are out there)
Hollismason wrote: Eh not really Necrons from the Decurion will pretty much whittle them down, 4+ , then 4+, unless they got a power weapon.
The marines' sole advantage is their higher Int, which means that they can probably disengage from combat if they fail a morale test. That and they can throw a grenade as they charge.
This -- warriors costing less than marines, but being the same or better in almost every way -- makes me uncomfortable. I hope there is something that I am missing. (Maybe it's that Marines can take a sarge, who can take a power weapon).
Even with a Power Weapon the Decurion Formation gives the 4++, that's what makes Flayed Ones so insane.
5 attacks on the charge with a 4+ , 4++ makes them one of the best HtH troops in the game for the cost. They'll tear apart dedicated CC troops especially if they've got a D-Lord with them.
I mean point for point their better than Blood Letters, Daemonettes, Plague Bearers etc.. for 4 points more a model.
RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek. Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.
3+ armor 67% to save 4+ & 5+++ = 67% to save 4+ & 4+++ = 75% chance to save 2+ armor 84% to save
adamsouza wrote: RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek.
Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.
3+ armor 67% to save
4+ & 5+++ = 67% to save
4+ & 4+++ = 75% chance to save
2+ armor 84% to save
That actually increases a bit because the Overlord let's you reroll 1s, but also T5 3+ 4++ is pretty good.
Reroll 1's on RP withing 12" of Overlord ? Increases RP 5+ from 33% to 38% Increases RP 4+ from 50% to 58%
Reanimation Protocols are awesome, I'm just trying to remind people it's not free to get RP 4+. You are going to have to invest points and models to achieve it, either fielding extra units with the decurion, or by getting Crypteks from a Royal Court.
3+ armor 67% to save 4+ & 5+++ = 67% to save 4+ & 4+++ = 75% chance to save 3+ RP 5+ = 77% chance to save 3+ RP 4+ = 83% chance to save 2+ armor 84% to save
adamsouza wrote: RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek.
Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.
Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.
So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?
Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:
So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.
Alcibiades wrote: Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.
I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.
The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.
caelim wrote: So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?
Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:
So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.
Wow, we're not on par shooting with Tau? Who woulda thunk?
I do consider the durability and mobility worth most of that shooting. We're Necrons, our draw isn't our fire output (as good as it is), it's the fact that we're the toughest buggers in the game, codex for codex. So the fact that point for point we're even that close to Tau, the army that gives up toughness and mobility in favor of shooting, is pretty darn good.
And honestly, all the math shows to me is what I was already assuming - the real winners at the moment are Heavy Destroyers. Regular destroyers are great, but Heavies jut provide a damage output that few other things in out book can even come close to providing.
Alcibiades wrote: Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.
I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.
The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.
Ah OK. I was worried about warriors being better than marines.
Alcibiades wrote: Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.
I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.
The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.
Again, it comes down to this: were you going to use Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades in your list anyway? If yes, the Decurion is not tax. It's just a straight bonus to what you already have.
If you weren't going to use them, then yes, it feels like tax. But you don't have to use it, Decurion, much like all Formations and FOCs, reward you for not playing what you want, but what GW thinks is thematic. Honestly, even with a regular FOC, you see people complaining about "Troop tax", because it's points spent on things that you don't want to spend them on.
adamsouza wrote: RP is only 4+ after a expending a sizable amount of points to field the Decurion, or 65+ points to include a Cryptek.
Remember that when your comparing them point for point with other models.
Although you didn't mention it expressly, impliedly you consider the minimum requirements of a Decurion a tax.
It's important to remember when discussing the "tax" involved in taking the Decurion that the regular CAD also requires 2 troops and an Overlord in order to be taken.
So the Decurion only really requires an extra troops choice (a bit like the Mephrit Dynasty detachment) and a unit of tomb blades, but blades are so effective now you're doing yourself a disservice if you don't take them.
When added together, the minimum requirements for the Decurion equal 399pts (excluding the Overlord, which you'd be taking anyway) as opposed to the CAD's minimum of 170pts. That's only a difference of 229pts.
Furthermore, we use the term "tax" to refer to restrictions placed upon us that we need to pay for before accessing other things. The assumption being that the "tax" models themselves do little to contribute to the effectiveness of the force.
It is this assumption that I believe is chiefly incorrect. Although it is a different system, I believe a comparison to Vampire Counts is apt here.
VC are required to take 25% of their army as Core - unfortunately, their Core choices (apart from Dire Wolves) are not effective at anything except dying in droves and possibly tying up enemies. You cannot use them to pin enemy units in place, as they're so lacklustre in combat that they'd bleed too much combat res even with help, nor does Fantasy have an objective system that would allow them to capture points. They are a perfect example of a tax - a penalty that needs to be paid in order to access better (read: more useful) units, but have little to no value in the army in and of themselves.
Compare them to our Decurion "tax" - Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades. All of which can easily contribute to the game either by capturing points, drawing fire from enemy units (and requiring a large amount of firepower to reliably eradicate), or even destroy enemy units with their own firepower.
This would be different if they weren't made significantly more durable by the Decurion's own benefit, but there'd be no point in taking the Decurion if the benefit wasn't in place.
Anyway, TL;DR: Calling the requirements of the Decurion a "tax" is incorrect as the required units can significantly contribute to the game.
Alcibiades wrote: Yeah, but we're comparing warriors and marines, and warriors are part of the Decurion.
I was addressing the discussion of Flayed Ones with 4+ RP being better, point for point, than other assault troops.
The point still stands. A Decurion is a sizable chunk of your army to meet the requirements, Crypteks are not free, and you need one or the other to get 4+ RP.
That's the whole point though is that if you want to view it as a tax you can but really it's not a Tax considering what the benefit your gaining. You're troops may not be Objective Secured. Otherwise your still getting what you have to purchase which Warriors w/ the Decurion are insanely worthwhile for their points.
It's whether you look at it as a Tax , which I really don't you're gonna wanna take a Overlord most of the time, and it can be a "barebones" Command Barge.
You're going to want to take some troops, all of which can have a Nightscythes and really why wouldn't you want a core block of cheap efficient troops.
As for Flayed Ones, their straight up 13 point Daemons , excepting versus ST8 or above.
13 PPM for 4+, 4++ , 5 Attacks on the charge and shred is probably one of the best costed CC units in the game, especially with Shred. Sure do they have weakness? Yes, AV, but that's about it.
They can outflank, they can infiltrate, deep strike, cause fear. LD10 that's amazing for 13ppm.
Someone did the math and put them against stuff of equal points and they just completely trash them even not getting the charge.
10 Models if they do get the charge get 50 attacks.
Again, it comes down to this: were you going to use Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades in your list anyway? If yes, the Decurion is not tax.
In the 2000 point list I run regularly, there are no Immortals or Tomb Blades.
In the 5000+ points of Necrons I own, I haven't fielded Immortals since they were old school metal, and Tomb Blades ever.
I'm not arguing the benefits of the Decurion. The 7E codex has me investing in a couple boxes of both Immortals and Tomb Blades, but fitting them into my army lists is a consideration. To get them into my lists, I need to remove units I would use otherwise.
I purposely did not use the term tax. Tax implies uselessness. I don't think Immortals and Tomb Blades are useless, but I didn't care for them enough to field them. To use the Decurion costs you opportunities to field other units, and it is up to you to decide if it is worth it.
Also, let's be honest here. Tomb Blades are not iconic, didn't sell well, and were never particularly popular other than last minute objective grabbers. Their inclusion in the Decurion is just evil marketing genius.
Again, it comes down to this: were you going to use Warriors, Immortals, and Tomb Blades in your list anyway? If yes, the Decurion is not tax.
In the 2000 point list I run regularly, there are no Immortals or Tomb Blades.
In the 5000+ points of Necrons I own, I haven't fielded Immortals since they were old school metal, and Tomb Blades ever.
I'm not arguing the benefits of the Decurion. The 7E codex has me investing in a couple boxes of both Immortals and Tomb Blades, but fitting them into my army lists is a consideration. To get them into my lists, I need to remove units I would use otherwise.
I purposely did not use the term tax. Tax implies uselessness. I don't think Immortals and Tomb Blades are useless, but I didn't care for them enough to field them. To use the Decurion costs you opportunities to field other units, and it is up to you to decide if it is worth it.
Also, let's be honest here. Tomb Blades are not iconic, didn't sell well, and were never particularly popular other than last minute objective grabbers. Their inclusion in the Decurion is just evil marketing genius.
Well, of course you haven't run Tomb blades before... they sucked back then
Yeah I got some small point games in them and the thing is most stuff that is Ignore Cover is just not AP3 or 2 , there are a flamers of course that do some damage at AP3, but their not ST10 which is needed to negate their 4+ save in the Decurion Detachment.
Against Weapons that would deny the cover save from Jink , your probably going to get the 3+ and against weapons that double the toughness ST10 AP2 etc.. you'll probably be getting the cover save.
They go great with a Barge Lord from the Decurion, giving Rerolls of 1s with in 12 , which ups their durability even more.
I'm more impressed with Tomb Blades than Wraiths honestly.
caelim wrote: So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?
Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:
So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.
Impressive maths man! geez. Did you include the re-rolls for the destroyers in that? It's interesting that the damage output for 6D and 6HD seems to be the most optimal load out. IMO the stalker is too many points for not much benefit..
caelim wrote: So, ran the numbers on Destroyer Cult vs. Tau Firebase. They're... disappointing.
For roughly the same points, you can get 6 HYMP + Ion Riptide (including upgrades), 9 Destroyers + 3 Heavy Destroyers + Naked D.Lord, or 6 Destroyers + 6 Heavy Destroyers + D.Lord. I admit - you're not getting the best value from D.Lord shooting, so there's a bit of 'hidden value' here... and Destroyers are definitely more maneuverable, and somewhat tougher, but does that make up for this?
Compared to a Firebase, you're going to kill ... as many ...:
So... It's an upgrade vs. marines and AV13/14, and underwhelming vs. the rest of the field. And it really depends on the stalker buff, which kinda kills that maneuverability.
Impressive maths man! geez. Did you include the re-rolls for the destroyers in that? It's interesting that the damage output for 6D and 6HD seems to be the most optimal load out. IMO the stalker is too many points for not much benefit..
Compare them heads up, though. The HDs have superior maneuverability and range, and a perfect weapon for kill Riptides and Missilesides. Missilsides might be more versatile, but HDs stand a very good chance of killing them in a straight up fight.
Automatically Appended Next Post: a good point caelim alludes to, though, is you really have to find the right spot for that Dlord for the Destroyer formation to really shine. I'm playing around with the idea of pairing him with both Flayed Ones, as well as something like a Warrior brick, oddly enough. Backed by a Stalker 20 Rapid fire Gauss Flayers with PE turns into some pretty mean damage. Grab a Solar Staff and Res Orb for good measure.
The rest of the formation is really solid, though, particularly the 6HD variety.
I threw that together with a Destroyer CAD to the tune of 18 HDs and 2 Tomb Stalkers in a concept list. That's, just, a relentless alpha strike against quite a few lists. With the right terrain it could be absolutely brutal.
Firebase is going to kill 4 Destroyers per turn: 1 from Smart, 1.67 from HYMP, and 1.46 from Ion.
Destroyers are pathetic vs. Broadsides, and even worse against Riptides. Most of the Gauss Cannon's "effectiveness" comes from its AP, so it drops like a rock vs. 2+ armour.
9+3 gets you 2 dead Broadsides: 0.88 from Destroyers, 1.13 from Heavies. 6+6 gets you almost 3 dead Broadsides: 0.6 Destroyers, 2.3 Heavies Adding a Stalker gets you +0.5 kills, plus whatever the Stalker can throw out. [Preferred Enemy and Formation benefits included here, and preceeding mathhammer]
It's actually worth it to ditch the Formation here, and just take a whole pile of Heavy Destroyers: 12 Heavy Destroyers get you 4.5 dead Broadsides, and is the only scenario in your favour - you're matching range, you've got the maneuverability to strike first, and move back to force them to move up to engage you (forcing snapfiring)... Of course, 12 H.Destroyers sets you back 3 Heavy AND 3 Fast attack slots - you weren't planning on bringing anything else, were you?
Destroyers are dead weight vs. 2+ armour. Heavy Destroyers don't have the volume of fire to handle Hordes, or the accuracy to handle aircraft. If you're fighting hordes of footslogging Marines, Destroyers are nice. If you need a bunch of mobile Lascannons, there are worse options than Heavy Destroyers.
The problem with specialization like this is - If I'm not facing footslogging Marines / 2+ Elites or AV14, I'm not getting good value. The beauty of the Firebase formation is that it does well against any target (and there's no downside to Tau allies). A lot of the value of my Destroyers is determined by my opponent's army build, which means they're not a great TAC choice.
Now, the mobility thing is a big deal. I'm skeptical of their use as centrepiece units (stand and shoot behind a stalker with a bajillion kinda useful synergies) for the above reasons. But a handful of Lascannons jumping out from behind walls... Could be playable? I'll have to do some playtesting on that one.
Firebase is going to kill 4 Destroyers per turn: 1 from Smart, 1.67 from HYMP, and 1.46 from Ion.
The SMS and HYMP will never be in range or LOS. Even if they run at them, they'll be dead before they shoot.
Destroyers are dead weight vs. 2+ armour. Heavy Destroyers don't have the volume of fire to handle Hordes, or the accuracy to handle aircraft. If you're fighting hordes of footslogging Marines, Destroyers are nice. If you need a bunch of mobile Lascannons, there are worse options than Heavy Destroyers.
Some good points, here, but I think there are definitely ways to shore up these deficiencies. Necrons can get the anti horde from their Stalkers, which pair nicely with the HDs anyway. Fliers could be a little annoying against a Destroyer Wing, although for the large part you can use JSJ to severely limit their firing options.
Again, it largely comes down to terrain. With the right terrain, the list would crush most. Even against hordes, you could easily ratchet up to 50 bases per turn.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What do ya'll think of this as a base unit in a normal CAD
Cryptek + Solar Staff + Chrono + RO
10 Immortals (Gauss)
Night Scythe
Not including the NS, you end up paying around 25 points per wound for T4 3+/5++ RP 4+ wounds with a turn of RP rerolls and a turn of pseudo invisisi. Pretty solid (you are effectively getting TH/SS termie wounds here, at least against shooting, for a bargain). The unit dishes out enough S 6 and Gauss shots to seriously threaten AV 12 or lower, at least within 12". Invasion beam these guys down in the middle of a shoot first opponent and they'll cause some headaches, at least.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I've been really thinking about an Imo Decurion list, mostly to spam 4+ RP re-roll to scatter Flayed Ones. One restricting factor, though, is you have to bring the RC to bring Imo, so your bare bones tax is 790 for the RC plus the Reclamation League, and that's zero goodies on your Olord/Lord or Cryptek.
Still, once you get passed they rather huge starting investment, you can get like, I don't know, 9 groups of 5 super Flayed Ones for 585.
That leaves you a detachment slot and 625 points or so to play around with. You can drop the FOs by a group or two and slot in the Destroyer Wing. The Heavy D's complement the FOs rather well, actually (being very strong against the things the FOs can't touch).
Was also playing around with the idea of combining it with a Canoptek formation.
Anyway, just kind of spit balling. That's a ton of Flayed Ones, though. Chop chop chop.
Firebase is going to kill 4 Destroyers per turn: 1 from Smart, 1.67 from HYMP, and 1.46 from Ion.
The SMS and HYMP will never be in range or LOS. Even if they run at them, they'll be dead before they shoot..
Good point this. So practically we are comparing the HD's v the Ion if both are shooting at each other.
Going of what you guys have both put out there I think the firebase is comparable to the destroyer cult however you remove some of the shooting of the base for manoeuvrability and staying power.
quick question guys,
is it possible to only take the Destroyer cult? so an army full of destroyers, and for Necrons which starter kit do you all recommend?
Pertruabo wrote: quick question guys,
is it possible to only take the Destroyer cult? so an army full of destroyers, and for Necrons which starter kit do you all recommend?
I've been wondering the same, thing, but I don't think its possible outside of an Unbound list. For a CAD, I don't think the Destroyer Cult can fill your HQ slot, and it certainly cant fill your Troop slot requirements. In an Unbound list, there is no problem taking all Destroyer Cult(s)
At this point, if I was starting from scratch, I'd say the Necron Battleforce + a CCB box is still the best starter, but If I could swing the expense, I'd be thinking about the "Necron Battleforce" + "The Tomb Awakened" box instead. Of course, noneof these will get you your Destroyers!
A list made entirely out of formations isn't unbound. Though that said, since you lack objective secured anyhow, the only thing you lose for supplementing a formation army with a few unbound units... Is bound status.
If I were doing a Destroyer Cult army, and I probably will once I get a few more Destroyers, I'd probably supplement with a close combat formation of some sort to give the Destroyer Lord a unit to escort. Judicator Batallion and Canoptek Harvest have decent synergy for this.
tetrisphreak wrote: Speaking of tournament level tactics, since adamantium lance is the new hotness i think i have a combo that helps fight it. It involves Zandrekh, a Triarch Stalker, a brick of 20 warriors, and Tau allies! Tau are allies of convenience, so they're still treated as "enemy" units. A buffmander and a unit of missile pod crisis suits offer some good firepower, while sharing their hit and run, tank hunter, etc that they get from the PENchip with zandrekh and his warriors. 40 BS5 tank-hunting gauss shots have a pretty good chance of downing a knight at close range, even with a 4++ reroll save. Add in hit and run from the VRTs the commander has, and they'll only have to suffer 1 round of D-swords and stomps before turning around to rapid fire and do it again.
That is hilarious! I hope tournaments allow this because it's the cheesiest thing I have ever heard lol.
I'll tell you what works even better against the lance. A Ghazgull Bullyboy formation. I ran one of those with meganobs in trukks with my crons and the nobs wiped the lance off the table in turn two. Granted I was left with only one units of nobs by the end thanks to three exploding knights but still it got the job done.
changemod wrote: A list made entirely out of formations isn't unbound.
Sorry, was not aware of this. I didn't know you could build an army entirely out of formations, and not be Unbound. I guess you just wouldn't be taking a CAD, and one of the formations would be your Primary Detatchment???
Ffyllotek wrote: So I'm playing a 1k game vs nids in a few weeks. Never played them before. What should I be thinking? Pretty sure enemy is going to play unbound.
Do you know what you're opponent will bring.
If not, FMCs are highly popular, so air support would be good.
Also, keep in mind most FMCs and MCs will have 3+ armor saves, so I'd recommend bringing some AP3 or better. Detroyers seem to me like they'd be good against Nid MCs.
If you know you're opponent is bringing Tyrnanocytes (Nid drop-pods), Deathmarks are worth considering as Ethereal Interceptor is a now pretty nice counter against deep-striking units.
changemod wrote: A list made entirely out of formations isn't unbound.
Sorry, was not aware of this. I didn't know you could build an army entirely out of formations, and not be Unbound. I guess you just wouldn't be taking a CAD, and one of the formations would be your Primary Detatchment???
You can build battle-forged armies out of any number of legal detachments.
The ObjSec rule only applies to CAD detachments. So using non-CAD detachments you won't get this command benefit, but you will get the command benefits from the detachments' formation rules.
It is perfectly legal to run 3 destroyer cults as your army, as long as you obey the restricitons. You'd only get the destroyer cult benefits, though.
As soon as you add anything that's not a detachment (for instance, you add a triach stalker model to three destoyer cult detachments) the entire army becomes unbound and no one receives any command benefits what so ever. Models still benefits from the units special rules (so +1 bs etc for being near the stalker).
Ffyllotek wrote: So I'm playing a 1k game vs nids in a few weeks. Never played them before. What should I be thinking? Pretty sure enemy is going to play unbound.
Do you know what you're opponent will bring.
If not, FMCs are highly popular, so air support would be good.
Also, keep in mind most FMCs and MCs will have 3+ armor saves, so I'd recommend bringing some AP3 or better. Detroyers seem to me like they'd be good against Nid MCs.
If you know you're opponent is bringing Tyrnanocytes (Nid drop-pods), Deathmarks are worth considering as Ethereal Interceptor is a now pretty nice counter against deep-striking units.
Nope, no idea and he won't tell me.
I was thinking a CAD with a decurion canotek detachment. I've three fliers I could use, but that seems a lot at 1k.
Yeah...1000 points makes it hard for me to guess what he would bring.
The most popular HQ is a Flyrant FMC....and people often bring more than 1, which is why I recommended air support.
But I almost feel like I should back off. If I give you that advice, and your buddy doesnt play Flyrants at all, then I just gave you horrible advice.
In any case, almost all Nid MCs have 3+ AS. I wouldn't see why anyone would not have a bunch of MCs in an Unbound Nid list, because the Horde route would lose all objective secured if it were Unbound. So I think its still worthwhile to bring AP3 or better to deal with MCs.
jasper76 wrote: Yeah...1000 points makes it hard for me to guess what he would bring.
The most popular HQ is a Flyrant FMC....and people often bring more than 1, which is why I recommended air support.
But I almost feel like I should back off. If I give you that advice, and your buddy doesnt play Flyrants at all, then I just gave you horrible advice.
In any case, almost all Nid MCs have 3+ AS. I wouldn't see why anyone would not have a bunch of MCs in an Unbound Nid list, because the Horde route would lose all objective secured if it were Unbound. So I think its still worthwhile to bring AP3 or better to deal with MCs.
No, please, advise away I know nothing about nids apart from a game I saw once, a turkey shoot between well prepared guard and a poor nid battle plan.
Wondering to give the decurion a try at all now, as I don't have enough destroyers for a cult, and squeezing in an AD and decurion for 1k could be tight.
In that case, let me put it this way. As a Tyranid 'NidZilla' player, nothing makes my stomach sink worse then playing against a bunch of AP2-3, and a bunch of AA.
AA, because I, like most everyone else, brings at least 1 FMC (as my Warlord). Mass AP2-3 because it basically turns my MCs into Guardsmen with lots of wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be helpful for me to see what you have to work with. I don't know if that kind of thing is frowned upon on the Tactica boards.
If you're expecting Flyrants, AV13 deals with them quite well. They can only do damage to the rear of our vehicles, and it's very easy to give the RA a cover save by positioning or just having tall models there. Additionally, Flyrants can't hurt Monoliths or our Superheavies at all.
Despite not getting the extra Tesla shots on snapshots, ABarges and Obelisks still shoot lots of S7 shots, twin linked in the ABarge's case. That's still not bad Anti-Air. Plus, the Obelisk really makes a big zone where Flyrants might be hesitant to move.
Also, if you have any sentry pylons, they make great AA as well with the heavy gauss cannon versions.
Finally, a firestorm redoubt with 2 quad lascannons and a magos machine spirit will only set you back 230 points, and has a great defense vs skimmers and flyers.
As soon as you add anything that's not a detachment (for instance, you add a triach stalker model to three destoyer cult detachments) the entire army becomes unbound and no one receives any command benefits what so ever.
This is not how it works.
"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies (pg. 117). If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation." (pg.121)
That means you can take a Destroyer Cult Formation and recieve all the benefits of it, even when you add a single Triarch Stalker or a Bloodthirster or twenty Warhound Titans to your army, although these models do not gain command benefits from any Formations they are not part of. In this case, playing an Unbound army makes literally no difference at all (with the exeption that Detachments, like a Decurion, a CAD or Allied Detachment, may only be included in Battle-forged armies).
jasper76 wrote: In that case, let me put it this way. As a Tyranid 'NidZilla' player, nothing makes my stomach sink worse then playing against a bunch of AP2-3, and a bunch of AA.
AA, because I, like most everyone else, brings at least 1 FMC (as my Warlord). Mass AP2-3 because it basically turns my MCs into Guardsmen with lots of wounds.
Automatically Appended Next Post: It would be helpful for me to see what you have to work with. I don't know if that kind of thing is frowned upon on the Tactica boards.
As soon as you add anything that's not a detachment (for instance, you add a triach stalker model to three destoyer cult detachments) the entire army becomes unbound and no one receives any command benefits what so ever.
This is not how it works.
"Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound armies (pg. 117). If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part of the Formation." (pg.121)
That means you can take a Destroyer Cult Formation and recieve all the benefits of it, even when you add a single Triarch Stalker or a Bloodthirster or twenty Warhound Titans to your army, although these models do not gain command benefits from any Formations they are not part of. In this case, playing an Unbound army makes literally no difference at all (with the exeption that Detachments, like a Decurion, a CAD or Allied Detachment, may only be included in Battle-forged armies).
While tournaments don't allow Unbound lists (for obvious reasons), most friendly games with people you know won't have a problem with it if you're just running Unbound because you either don't have the models or you want to run a theme list. I mean, don't abuse the friendship by bringing 6 Wraithknights, but no one at my FLGS bats an eye when someone says "Hey, I feel like loading up on Aspect Warriors and don't want to bring Guardians, Dire Avengers, or Jetbikes, so I'll be Unbound.", we just roll with it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Tyran wrote: The Monoliths would be death weight against Flyrants.
Not necessarily. If he's bringing mostly Flyrants and little else, the Monoliths are perfectly fine just sitting on an objective and holding it for free. If the Flyrants land to charge it, that's fine too, as I just made a Flyrant land and as long as the Particle Whip doesn't scatter, I probably took a free wound off it too.
Tyran wrote: The Monoliths would be death weight against Flyrants.
Not necessarily. If he's bringing mostly Flyrants and little else, the Monoliths are perfectly fine just sitting on an objective and holding it for free. If the Flyrants land to charge it, that's fine too, as I just made a Flyrant land and as long as the Particle Whip doesn't scatter, I probably took a free wound off it too.
If he brings 4 Flyrants, he could kill 1 in a shooting turn as the Flyrants are going to have E-grubs.
Tyran wrote: The Monoliths would be death weight against Flyrants.
Not necessarily. If he's bringing mostly Flyrants and little else, the Monoliths are perfectly fine just sitting on an objective and holding it for free. If the Flyrants land to charge it, that's fine too, as I just made a Flyrant land and as long as the Particle Whip doesn't scatter, I probably took a free wound off it too.
If he brings 4 Flyrants, he could kill 1 in a shooting turn as the Flyrants are going to have E-grubs.
With those selection, I'd be inlclined to go CAD, and take DLord w/ Voidreaper and maybe Phase Shifter attached to the Wraiths. I'd take your Destroyers and get the most of their distance AP3.
And build from there...maybe 2 Troops of 10 Warriors in Night Scythes for AA. Or a couple ABs. The codex is new enough that I don't have all the points costs memorized, and I don't have it with me. so I don't know how close to 1000 I'm getting.
You could also go the Canoptek Harvest route, but at 1000 point game, I think the Spyder/Scarab tax would be very hefty and not sure if it would provide too much added value.
So.. I'm seeing a lot of people take the one heavy destroyer upgrade choice in Destroyer units. Is there a reason for that? As far as I can tell, normals and heavies still have completely different targeting priorities, so functionally on average you're basically just paying to either give that character one less shot that wounds on a 2+ instead of a 3+, or to have the rest of the unit plink away with gauss as the Lascannon does it's work.
What's everyone's thoughts on the transdimensional Beamer upgrade for wraiths?
In the Canoptek Harvest Formation they have the relentless special rule so they can fire them and then charge. Poor str but AP2 is nice especially against elite infantry, and the instant death potential seems really good against MC since Nidzilla is somewhat popular.
Do they cost too much or is it better to have the +3 initiative.
Punisher wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on the transdimensional Beamer upgrade for wraiths?
In the Canoptek Harvest Formation they have the relentless special rule so they can fire them and then charge. Poor str but AP2 is nice especially against elite infantry, and the instant death potential seems really good against MC since Nidzilla is somewhat popular.
Do they cost too much or is it better to have the +3 initiative.
I like them now personally, but only with Relentless (so only as part of Harvest) I'm probably going to have a couple models with TB on hand to play with. If you like the TB, you can have the best of both worlds...1 or 2 models with TB, 2 or 3 in the back with WCs, and 1 - 3 vanilla to soak up fire from the front, just like old times.
I think i just realized that we cant take the Quad gun emplacement (or any fortification) with the Decurion detachment, right? Would we have to take a CAD on the side to unlock access to a fortification?
xpress907 wrote: I think i just realized that we cant take the Quad gun emplacement (or any fortification) with the Decurion detachment, right? Would we have to take a CAD on the side to unlock access to a fortification?
Hadn't thought about this til now, but I think you are correct.
changemod wrote: So.. I'm seeing a lot of people take the one heavy destroyer upgrade choice in Destroyer units. Is there a reason for that? As far as I can tell, normals and heavies still have completely different targeting priorities, so functionally on average you're basically just paying to either give that character one less shot that wounds on a 2+ instead of a 3+, or to have the rest of the unit plink away with gauss as the Lascannon does it's work.
I mean, that's true. But, at the same time, having 3 more lascannons on the board is never a bad thing. If they only shoot at Destroyer targets, like you said it's one less shot that wounds better and can ID many things. But if you don't bring them, and they opponent doesn't have 3+ or other good targets for the regular Destroyers, but has a lot of Vehicles, MCs, or 2+ characters, then the Destroyers aren't doing much and you'll really be wishing for that 10 point upgrade.
Basically, bringing 1 Heavy per squad grants flexibility. The Heavy's shot is always going to do damage (even if it's "wasted" on the Destroyer's target), and if there are targets for the Heavies, the Destroyers are keeping it safe and you'll be happy that Lascannon is there.
changemod wrote: So.. I'm seeing a lot of people take the one heavy destroyer upgrade choice in Destroyer units. Is there a reason for that? As far as I can tell, normals and heavies still have completely different targeting priorities, so functionally on average you're basically just paying to either give that character one less shot that wounds on a 2+ instead of a 3+, or to have the rest of the unit plink away with gauss as the Lascannon does it's work.
I mean, that's true. But, at the same time, having 3 more lascannons on the board is never a bad thing. If they only shoot at Destroyer targets, like you said it's one less shot that wounds better and can ID many things. But if you don't bring them, and they opponent doesn't have 3+ or other good targets for the regular Destroyers, but has a lot of Vehicles, MCs, or 2+ characters, then the Destroyers aren't doing much and you'll really be wishing for that 10 point upgrade.
Basically, bringing 1 Heavy per squad grants flexibility. The Heavy's shot is always going to do damage (even if it's "wasted" on the Destroyer's target), and if there are targets for the Heavies, the Destroyers are keeping it safe and you'll be happy that Lascannon is there.
I guess that makes sense, I'm just mostly going from mixing being a bad idea last edition and the weapons still having the same profile.
So.. At the moment I have 5 normals, 3 heavies and a Lord. Definitely getting four more to fit minimum requirements, but was considering getting an additional 9 after that for the full cult.
Sounds more like 6 and 3 heavy would be the best way to round out the Cult to max size.
changemod wrote: So.. I'm seeing a lot of people take the one heavy destroyer upgrade choice in Destroyer units. Is there a reason for that? As far as I can tell, normals and heavies still have completely different targeting priorities, so functionally on average you're basically just paying to either give that character one less shot that wounds on a 2+ instead of a 3+, or to have the rest of the unit plink away with gauss as the Lascannon does it's work.
I mean, that's true. But, at the same time, having 3 more lascannons on the board is never a bad thing. If they only shoot at Destroyer targets, like you said it's one less shot that wounds better and can ID many things. But if you don't bring them, and they opponent doesn't have 3+ or other good targets for the regular Destroyers, but has a lot of Vehicles, MCs, or 2+ characters, then the Destroyers aren't doing much and you'll really be wishing for that 10 point upgrade.
Basically, bringing 1 Heavy per squad grants flexibility. The Heavy's shot is always going to do damage (even if it's "wasted" on the Destroyer's target), and if there are targets for the Heavies, the Destroyers are keeping it safe and you'll be happy that Lascannon is there.
I guess that makes sense, I'm just mostly going from mixing being a bad idea last edition and the weapons still having the same profile.
So.. At the moment I have 5 normals, 3 heavies and a Lord. Definitely getting four more to fit minimum requirements, but was considering getting an additional 9 after that for the full cult.
Sounds more like 6 and 3 heavy would be the best way to round out the Cult to max size.
As much as I love Destroyers (and I do, I really do), I don't think I'm going to run it at full strength. That's a bit too much wrapped up in one unit type for my blood. I think I'll be running the 6 Regular + 6 Heavy version instead, still has all the Lascannons but relatively cheaper. My meta doesn't feature a lot of Marines or other 3+ saves, but we have a good amount of Nidzilla and Tank spam.
Punisher wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on the transdimensional Beamer upgrade for wraiths?
In the Canoptek Harvest Formation they have the relentless special rule so they can fire them and then charge. Poor str but AP2 is nice especially against elite infantry, and the instant death potential seems really good against MC since Nidzilla is somewhat popular.
Do they cost too much or is it better to have the +3 initiative.
Honestly I like the Beamer more than the Whip Coils in many cases. Going first is great and all, but when you're as durable as Wraiths (especially if they have Formation Spyder support), going second isn't a big deal at all. And it also doesn't help if you're going through cover anyway, which is a high possibility.
But having an AP2 gun that can auto-pen or auto-ID? That's a pretty big deal. Sure, it's not the best gun in the game - it's BS4 on a max squad size of 6, it's only S4 if you don't roll 6s, it's only 12" - but it gives Wraiths the capability to do damage even when they're not charging, and makes them a variable threat that can seriously make MCs and heavy vehicles afraid even before they charge in.
So I was thinking about our lack of AA in an increasingly Flyrant-filled world. Was thinking about the Gauss Sentry Pylon. I know that it can only hit skimmers and flyers on full ballistic skill, but I'm thinking about creative ways to get around that. I like the gauss variant (over the patently broken version) but obviously you want them to be able to target ground units if need be.
Is there a way around this? What do broadsides have that lets them get away with this? Or do they not any more? I was thinking we could use Zandrekh (sp?) to steal rules from a similar allied unit (since they could not be allies of convenience and that is what Necrons and tau are IIRC)
Gauss Cannons can never target non-FMC or -Skimmer ground targets at full BS. It kind of limits them a bit, but then you realize the every army has a least one of those things. Many armies bring at least one with regularity. The only armies you can regularly expect to not have a Flyer or Skimmer are Bike Marines or Orks.
Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Tau all have Skimmer vehicles. Daemons have Skimmer chariots and more FMCs than you can shake a stick at. Nids bring FMCs more often than not. Guard (or MT) will usually have at least one flyer. Chaos have Princes and Hellturkeys. And even Orks and SM occasionally have a flyer or two. So honestly, against many armies you go against, it'll not be snapshooting.
That said, they're still pretty expensive for what they do. 135 before upgrades for 2 situational shots is a lot to ask for, though it's paying that for the durability (T7 W3) and the range (120"!!!). I don't think it's a great investment, but it's not a useless one.
Requizen wrote: Gauss Cannons can never target non-FMC or -Skimmer ground targets at full BS. It kind of limits them a bit, but then you realize the every army has a least one of those things. Many armies bring at least one with regularity. The only armies you can regularly expect to not have a Flyer or Skimmer are Bike Marines or Orks.
Dark Eldar, Eldar, Necrons, Tau all have Skimmer vehicles. Daemons have Skimmer chariots and more FMCs than you can shake a stick at. Nids bring FMCs more often than not. Guard (or MT) will usually have at least one flyer. Chaos have Princes and Hellturkeys. And even Orks and SM occasionally have a flyer or two. So honestly, against many armies you go against, it'll not be snapshooting.
That said, they're still pretty expensive for what they do. 135 before upgrades for 2 situational shots is a lot to ask for, though it's paying that for the durability (T7 W3) and the range (120"!!!). I don't think it's a great investment, but it's not a useless one.
Right, I agree on all counts.
EDIT I derped and misread Zandrekh's special rule.
Another potential combo - Doomsday Arks and Deathmarks
At least for me, as soon as I think about a Doomsday Ark, I think of Melta Drop Pods forcing the choice between jinking and exploding.
Deathmarks seem to be an answer to this. They automatically come in right after someone deepstriking, get to Intercept, and 6 of them should kill 3 marines on average.
changemod wrote: So.. I'm seeing a lot of people take the one heavy destroyer upgrade choice in Destroyer units. Is there a reason for that? As far as I can tell, normals and heavies still have completely different targeting priorities, so functionally on average you're basically just paying to either give that character one less shot that wounds on a 2+ instead of a 3+, or to have the rest of the unit plink away with gauss as the Lascannon does it's work.
I mean, that's true. But, at the same time, having 3 more lascannons on the board is never a bad thing. If they only shoot at Destroyer targets, like you said it's one less shot that wounds better and can ID many things. But if you don't bring them, and they opponent doesn't have 3+ or other good targets for the regular Destroyers, but has a lot of Vehicles, MCs, or 2+ characters, then the Destroyers aren't doing much and you'll really be wishing for that 10 point upgrade.
Basically, bringing 1 Heavy per squad grants flexibility. The Heavy's shot is always going to do damage (even if it's "wasted" on the Destroyer's target), and if there are targets for the Heavies, the Destroyers are keeping it safe and you'll be happy that Lascannon is there.
i think its also important to remember as well that although the ranges are different the gauss rule means no shots are ever wasted as they can still hurt the target the heavy D is aiming for.
[... ]And it also doesn't help if you're going through cover anyway, which is a high possibility.
I posted about this in YMDC, and the majority of contributors in the thread agreed on the wraiths not losing their initiative when charging into difficult terrain, because the penalty condition is that you moved through diff. terrain when charging, and wraiths may always move over terrain as if it was open ground (which by definition of the BRB is a terrain type of its own, and thus cannot count as difficult terrain as well).
caelim wrote: Another potential combo - Doomsday Arks and Deathmarks
At least for me, as soon as I think about a Doomsday Ark, I think of Melta Drop Pods forcing the choice between jinking and exploding.
Deathmarks seem to be an answer to this. They automatically come in right after someone deepstriking, get to Intercept, and 6 of them should kill 3 marines on average.
Potential Deathmark combo: Obyron in the Deathmarks, place Zahndrekh in the middle of your important units. Your Barges, your Doomsday Ark, Stalker, Heavy Destroyers, whatever you brought. Make sure he's there.
Then, when your opponent Deep Strikes onto a nice potential target, there's a nice 24" diameter bubble that you get a perfect Deep Strike Interception.
If they don't Deep Strike near that bubble, keep the Deathmarks in reserve. Then next turn, move Zahndrekh towards the enemy that just landed and have the Deathmarks come down perfectly there.
If you have the points, you can even include a Destroyer Lord for that nice PE(E!).
As for Flying Monstrous Creatures, Tomb Blades will put a serious hurt on them either just volume of fire if they get within 12" or straight up just murder them if they try to glide.Meanwhile the Tomb Blades are going to ignore most shooting from the Hive Tyrants, 3 + 5 + ( in the case of Decurion 4+)
At 24 inches , you decrease in ability but the thng with Hive Tyrants is they have to CLose in on AV13 to get haywire otherwise you can just shoot at them all day and they can't do nothing about it.
At 12 inches and if they're gliding, you'll straight up just murder a Hive Tyrant a turn with Tomb Blades. 20 AP4 ST5 , no cover save. I'm pretty sure Flyrants are T6. I don't have my book.
They also got a good chance of killing one a turn if they man a Quad gun which of course is the Cheaper Option. 3 Tomb Blades w/ One Aegis is less than 150 points and it's going to mow down Hive Tyrants more if you have a Destroyer Lord attached to the Tomb Blades to give Preferred Enemy.
Also, I don't think the Bargelord is kind of worth it any more unless done cheap.
Probably because you can just hang out on Objectives and completely ignore them in Cover with your army getting a 4+ 4+. They're shooting isn't great when dealing with a majority of T5 and multiple save units.4 Tyrants puts out 48, 12 ST6 shots, that reroll hits, everything in the army being 4+ , 4++ is going to be like , oh okay.
It's just math.
The Hive Tyrants need to close in to get the glancing hits with their Haywire templates.
Otherwise you can just shoot the rest of their army to pieces and just sit on objectives all day. At a Majority T4 the Flyrants are still only doing 40 wounds a turn just statistically.
What could they possibly do against 2 Warrior Squads sitting on a Objective in Ghost Arks, they got to get to rear armour of the vehicle or get Hay Wire on them.
Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.
Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.
5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.
I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.
caelim wrote: Another potential combo - Doomsday Arks and Deathmarks
At least for me, as soon as I think about a Doomsday Ark, I think of Melta Drop Pods forcing the choice between jinking and exploding.
Deathmarks seem to be an answer to this. They automatically come in right after someone deepstriking, get to Intercept, and 6 of them should kill 3 marines on average.
Potential Deathmark combo: Obyron in the Deathmarks, place Zahndrekh in the middle of your important units. Your Barges, your Doomsday Ark, Stalker, Heavy Destroyers, whatever you brought. Make sure he's there.
Then, when your opponent Deep Strikes onto a nice potential target, there's a nice 24" diameter bubble that you get a perfect Deep Strike Interception.
If they don't Deep Strike near that bubble, keep the Deathmarks in reserve. Then next turn, move Zahndrekh towards the enemy that just landed and have the Deathmarks come down perfectly there.
If you have the points, you can even include a Destroyer Lord for that nice PE(E!).
This wouldn't work because I don't think Obyron has Deepstrike himself and the Ghostwalk Mantle doesn't confer it.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.
Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.
5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.
I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.
Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.
5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.
I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.
Hollismason wrote: The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.
I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.
Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.
yes
Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.
I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.
Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.
His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.
Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.
So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.
Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.
Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.
5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.
I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.
Hollismason wrote: The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.
I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.
Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.
yes
Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.
I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.
Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.
His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.
Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.
So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.
Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.
The bargeLord can take the flamer AND a warscythe and he has the mobility to put the flamer to great use.
Hollismason wrote: The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.
I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.
So which Ally of Convenience do you think is best to shore this up. Chaos has a bit of AA. I don't know anything about Tau really? Do they have good AA that you can get on the board for cheapish in an Allied Detachment?
Hollismason wrote: As for Flying Monstrous Creatures, Tomb Blades will put a serious hurt on them either just volume of fire if they get within 12" or straight up just murder them if they try to glide.Meanwhile the Tomb Blades are going to ignore most shooting from the Hive Tyrants, 3 + 5 + ( in the case of Decurion 4+)
At 24 inches , you decrease in ability but the thng with Hive Tyrants is they have to CLose in on AV13 to get haywire otherwise you can just shoot at them all day and they can't do nothing about it.
At 12 inches and if they're gliding, you'll straight up just murder a Hive Tyrant a turn with Tomb Blades. 20 AP4 ST5 , no cover save. I'm pretty sure Flyrants are T6. I don't have my book.
They also got a good chance of killing one a turn if they man a Quad gun which of course is the Cheaper Option. 3 Tomb Blades w/ One Aegis is less than 150 points and it's going to mow down Hive Tyrants more if you have a Destroyer Lord attached to the Tomb Blades to give Preferred Enemy.
Also, I don't think the Bargelord is kind of worth it any more unless done cheap.
Your under estimating the Hive Tyrants a bit. 20 shots at AP4 equals 18 hits, 6 wounds, 3+ armor save. So the Hive Tyrant loses 2 wounds. And that becomes very situational, FNP, Cover. etc..
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.
Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.
5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.
I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.
Hollismason wrote: The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.
I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.
Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.
yes
Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.
I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.
Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.
His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.
Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.
So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.
Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.
The bargeLord can take the flamer AND a warscythe and he has the mobility to put the flamer to great use.
You mean the one shot AP2 ST7 Flamer, or the St4 AP5 flamer, cause neither are something I'd pay 150+ points for.
Seriously, he's not that great in CC any more , people gonna have to get use to it. A 10 Man Tactical Squad with a SGT w/ Melta Bombs can blow him up in CC.
Any dedicated assault unit will just kill the Barge First, ignoring the Necron Overlord.
He's a really great Support unit but he's not half as powerful as he was now.
Hollismason wrote: The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.
I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.
So which Ally of Convenience do you think is best to shore this up. Chaos has a bit of AA. I don't know anything about Tau really? Do they have good AA that you can get on the board for cheapish in an Allied Detachment?
I'm thinking of trying an Obelisk. The gravity pulse will give AV flyers a scare without having to dedicate a shooting phase to them.
Hollismason wrote: As for Flying Monstrous Creatures, Tomb Blades will put a serious hurt on them either just volume of fire if they get within 12" or straight up just murder them if they try to glide.Meanwhile the Tomb Blades are going to ignore most shooting from the Hive Tyrants, 3 + 5 + ( in the case of Decurion 4+)
At 24 inches , you decrease in ability but the thng with Hive Tyrants is they have to CLose in on AV13 to get haywire otherwise you can just shoot at them all day and they can't do nothing about it.
At 12 inches and if they're gliding, you'll straight up just murder a Hive Tyrant a turn with Tomb Blades. 20 AP4 ST5 , no cover save. I'm pretty sure Flyrants are T6. I don't have my book.
They also got a good chance of killing one a turn if they man a Quad gun which of course is the Cheaper Option. 3 Tomb Blades w/ One Aegis is less than 150 points and it's going to mow down Hive Tyrants more if you have a Destroyer Lord attached to the Tomb Blades to give Preferred Enemy.
Also, I don't think the Bargelord is kind of worth it any more unless done cheap.
Your under estimating the Hive Tyrants a bit. 20 shots at AP4 equals 18 hits, 6 wounds, 3+ armor save. So the Hive Tyrant loses 2 wounds. And that becomes very situational, FNP, Cover. etc..
The common Flyrant load out is Egrubs Twin Linked Devourers, Wings. 3+ , T6 . 4 wounds.
The problem is if the Flyrant Lands near you you can eat their lunch with the amount of mass fire you can put into them.
Basically Flyrants are powerful units but they're not like something you should run screaming from the table over. Not with the Durability the Necron Army has.
Can a bargelord fire two weapons? Specifically, the Overlord himself I mean. Obviously he can fire one weapon whilst the underslung Gauss Cannon fires.
The dedicated assault people could always just ignore the lord and kill the barge, that hasn't remotely changed. Mine repeatedly got owned by TH/SS and would again in this new codex. Or piling on a bunch of wounds to the lord would also work.
He was scary because of sweep and armourbane, much less so now and less durable but cheaper. I'll be running him simply with the scythe and that is it. He can storm a landraider well enough still and I don't care if what is inside munches him.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I kind of pointed that out it's if they go in Gliding mode they get killed pretty quick. The point is the Flyrants have to close in to use Haywire otherwise you can just back up against a wall or the Board Edge to prevent them from getting rear armour and shoot at them all day long.
Flyrants don't do well against T5 with 3+ armour and 5+ FNP basically more if you take a Decurion. It's just a gak deal for them.
5 Tyrants shooting 60 ST6 shots a turn, so 50 wounds against majority 4+ T, then a base save of 4+ , 4++ , 4++. A 4 + , 4++ is statistically the same as a 2+ save pretty much , a little better since you can reroll ones, does like 8 wounds a turn.
I mean I'm not a math expert but 3 Destroyers w/ 5+ FNP , T5 how many shots would that be to wipe out a full squad.
Hollismason wrote: The big problem that Necron's cannot handle is Flying AV now with the nerf to Tesla , not Flying Monstrous Creatures.
I mean you still sort of get it with Nightscythes but not like it was.
Are we durable enough to just ignore Flyers? Flyers have got to land to take objectives.
yes
Yeah I kind of think we are durable enough to just ignore Flyrants and lets face it the other stuff like Daemon Princes of Nurgle etc.. are going to be in Glide mode to be able to assault unless their using them as a mobile summoning platform.
I just feel overall , kill everything else that isn't flying and just grab objectives.
Also, this is one of the reasons I don't like the Bargelord anymore, he doesn't really seem to do well anything really good other than get shot at. He'll get brutalized in CC by any dedicated unit becaue they can now just kill the barge.
His shooting isn't all that either. His huge benefit is the reroll of ones and the Command Barge bonus.
Eventually people are just going to go " oh yeah, don't shoot at that guy" and just ignore him because seriously he doesn't have super amazing shooting with the changes to tesla.
So you pay 190 points for some who situationally can maybe do something pretty cool. Otherwise nope.
Right now people are Cocoa Puffs over him but seriously eventualyl people will go " Oh yeah he's not as scary as he was before at all" and just learn to ignore him.
The bargeLord can take the flamer AND a warscythe and he has the mobility to put the flamer to great use.
You mean the one shot AP2 ST7 Flamer, or the St4 AP5 flamer, cause neither are something I'd pay 150+ points for.
Seriously, he's not that great in CC any more , people gonna have to get use to it. A 10 Man Tactical Squad with a SGT w/ Melta Bombs can blow him up in CC.
Any dedicated assault unit will just kill the Barge First, ignoring the Necron Overlord.
He's a really great Support unit but he's not half as powerful as he was now.
He just serves a different purpose now. His speed is insane! He will be a regular player in the NewCrons, just not the OP player he was.
Hollismason wrote: As for Flying Monstrous Creatures, Tomb Blades will put a serious hurt on them either just volume of fire if they get within 12" or straight up just murder them if they try to glide.Meanwhile the Tomb Blades are going to ignore most shooting from the Hive Tyrants, 3 + 5 + ( in the case of Decurion 4+)
At 24 inches , you decrease in ability but the thng with Hive Tyrants is they have to CLose in on AV13 to get haywire otherwise you can just shoot at them all day and they can't do nothing about it.
At 12 inches and if they're gliding, you'll straight up just murder a Hive Tyrant a turn with Tomb Blades. 20 AP4 ST5 , no cover save. I'm pretty sure Flyrants are T6. I don't have my book.
They also got a good chance of killing one a turn if they man a Quad gun which of course is the Cheaper Option. 3 Tomb Blades w/ One Aegis is less than 150 points and it's going to mow down Hive Tyrants more if you have a Destroyer Lord attached to the Tomb Blades to give Preferred Enemy.
Also, I don't think the Bargelord is kind of worth it any more unless done cheap.
Your under estimating the Hive Tyrants a bit. 20 shots at AP4 equals 18 hits, 6 wounds, 3+ armor save. So the Hive Tyrant loses 2 wounds. And that becomes very situational, FNP, Cover. etc..
The common Flyrant load out is Egrubs Twin Linked Devourers, Wings. 3+ , T6 . 4 wounds.
The problem is if the Flyrant Lands near you you can eat their lunch with the amount of mass fire you can put into them.
Basically Flyrants are powerful units but they're not like something you should run screaming from the table over. Not with the Durability the Necron Army has.
I agree with what you just said. But you've blown the Tomb Blades way out of proportion. 10 TBs do not scare a Hive Tyrant. The rest of your army might.
10 won't but 20 will which is where I think people will start realizing a stronger army is something that takes Ignore Cover, because 20 Tomb Blades will kill a Wave Serpent a turn two is they get with in 12 inches and can easily kite and strip a Imperial Knight, along with shooting at FMCs that are relying on Shrouding or Cover saves.
What my "competitive" build of a army is going to kind of resemble ( still not sold on the Triarch Stalker)
I've got a list I'm tinkering with that's got 18 HDs, 6Ds, and a variety of other toys, particularly among them Tomb Stalkers. All the normal Ds and 6 of the Heavy Ds come from the formation, so a lot of rerolls going on there.
Anyway, just taking those Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers on there own, they run about 1140. Math hammering them out against 5 Hive Tyrants yield some impressive results. You do about 4.5 wounds per turn against them, and they do about 6 wounds per turn against you. Of course that's assuming everyone is happily in range and LOS, two things that will tend to favor the Destroyers. So you can cut down about 1/5th of their starting wounds per turn, and they in return can take down about 1/8th of your starting wounds.
It's a matchup that largely favors the Destroyers, in short. And they are coming in at a substantial discount, too.
Tomb King wrote: 1 unit of 10 tomb blades can kill a wave serpent a turn when rapid firing. Just a heads up.
Indeed. And in return, a full blast from a standing wave serpent, Shuriken Cannon and all, kills about 1.3 Shield Vane tomb blades. Pretty good trade, there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just threw this in Army List ::
Tomb King wrote: 1 unit of 10 tomb blades can kill a wave serpent a turn when rapid firing. Just a heads up.
Indeed. And in return, a full blast from a standing wave serpent, Shuriken Cannon and all, kills about 1.3 Shield Vane tomb blades. Pretty good trade, there.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just threw this in Army List ::
155 Dlord + Solar Staff + Rez Orb ( Goes with Flayed Ones)
130 2 x Destroyers 1 x Heave Destroyer
130 2 x D + 1 x HD
130 2 x D + 1 x HD
150 3 x HD
Total for Destroyer Cult 695
CAD
HS 90 Cryptek + Chrono ( Goes with Flayed Ones)
Elite
250 2 x Triarch Stalker
195 15 x Flayed Ones
Troops
85 5 x Gauss Immortals
85 5 X Gauss Immortals
FA 150 3 x 1 x HD
HS 450 3 x 3 x HD
Total for CAD 1305
2000 on the nose.
I really think that list would absolutely roll. Has a pretty solid answer for anything in the current meta.
A very low model count for that big of a game. In addition, you have nothing that ignores cover which is something most list need these days. Your only assaulty element is 15 flayed ones. YMMV but I would not fear this list in the slightest. Not sure why people are so caught up on the destroyer and wraith trains. They haven't changed that much for the better. IMO i actually think destroyers got worse thanks to being slower now. The best unit in this dex is Tomb Blades... Not sure why people cant see that.
A very low model count for that big of a game. In addition, you have nothing that ignores cover which is something most list need these days. Your only assaulty element is 15 flayed ones. YMMV but I would not fear this list in the slightest. Not sure why people are so caught up on the destroyer and wraith trains. They haven't changed that much for the better. IMO i actually think destroyers got worse thanks to being slower now. The best unit in this dex is Tomb Blades... Not sure why people cant see that.
Only assault element is probably the best assault unit in the game, point for point, right now?
What list are you referring to that wouldn't fear this list in the slightest? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, because I honestly would like to know.
Ignores cover is nice, when you need it. This list drops two wave serpents a turn, easily. It doesn't need ignores cover. Flayed Ones will annihilate any troops that huddle up in cover.
I honestly would love for people to show me lists that could give this one fits. I compare it to some of the tournament winners and top table finishers over the last few months and I'm pretty certain it would crush most of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: to say, 5 Demon FMCs, that's one list that could get a bit problematic. The Flayed Ones could make any one that lands suffer, but their ++ goes a long way against AP 2.
5 Hive Tyrants wouldn't be much of a problem, though, I don't think.
MiniWargaming posted a new Youtube video talking about the 7E Necron Troops and Transports.
I think Matt may be over estimating the difficulty of killing Necron Warriors, but the video is still something good Necron related to listen to while assembling all your new Lychguard and Tomb Blades.
Unrelated, Tomb Blades are sold out on the GW US online store. Making them a mandatory portion of the Decurion has proven to be a great marketing move.
A very low model count for that big of a game. In addition, you have nothing that ignores cover which is something most list need these days. Your only assaulty element is 15 flayed ones. YMMV but I would not fear this list in the slightest. Not sure why people are so caught up on the destroyer and wraith trains. They haven't changed that much for the better. IMO i actually think destroyers got worse thanks to being slower now. The best unit in this dex is Tomb Blades... Not sure why people cant see that.
Only assault element is probably the best assault unit in the game, point for point, right now?
What list are you referring to that wouldn't fear this list in the slightest? I'm not trying to be antagonistic, because I honestly would like to know.
Ignores cover is nice, when you need it. This list drops two wave serpents a turn, easily. It doesn't need ignores cover. Flayed Ones will annihilate any troops that huddle up in cover.
I honestly would love for people to show me lists that could give this one fits. I compare it to some of the tournament winners and top table finishers over the last few months and I'm pretty certain it would crush most of them.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Edit: to say, 5 Demon FMCs, that's one list that could get a bit problematic. The Flayed Ones could make any one that lands suffer, but their ++ goes a long way against AP 2.
5 Hive Tyrants wouldn't be much of a problem, though, I don't think.
I like your list, I like the idea of the D cult and am working on something similar in a 2k point list, but has less assault elements than yours.
Destroyer cult
D lord 110pts
3x 3destroyers 360pts
total= 1999pts
It can be brought down to 1850 by reducing Immortals by 2, dropping 1 tb from each squad, and 3 warriors from each squad. Gives 7 points to spare.
I'm thinking dropping an immortal and giving the D.Lord solar staff would be very useful, since the army is mostly optimal range 24"
Almost everything has relentless, so they can move and fire and the increased RP. Two decent units of tomb blades with ignores cover, the stalkers have a good chance of slagging anything that is not in cover/jinking with a total of 4 heatray shots with rerolls to hit and ap. Praetorians hang out around the warriors and immortals and play necro-police anycase any agitators try to get close. Destroyers with BS 5 if near stalkers and PE, and the reroll to wound/ap should put out a significant number of wounds/glances. Essentially they hit on 2+, if they miss (rolled a 1) they get PE and reroll, so your looking at usually getting all hits all the time. Str 5 Ap3 is MEQ bane, and with reroll to wound/pen has a decent chance of hurting things. Against toughness 7+ should still put out 2 wounds per 3 man squad, or 2 glances on anything av 11+. This is of course before inv saves and cover. The warrior/immortal blocks are large because they get the 4+ RP from the decurion, and if within 12" of the CCB they are getting rerolls to morale, fear, and pinning tests as well as getting to reroll Rp rolls of 1 from the enhanced reanimation protocols from the reclamation formation.
Basically it would play like a large semi spread out phalanx of mixed models with the faster elements moving to cover things.
If I was going to take this up to 2500 that would be fun, would add 2 ghost arks for the warrior blocks, flesh out the destroyers with 1 model each and add a some heavy destroyers. Or add 2 monoliths and 2 heavy destroyers.
Honestly, I've never used one but it being cheaper and less of a lynchpin to build a strategy around and more a nice passive buff is making me take another look.
So... The flamer is nice for overwatch, particularly given that the Stalker looks to suck more than it has any right to in combat... (How do gigantic S7 claws have no AP? It's a giant Spyder!), though Melta probably isn't ever going to come into play on a 6 inch move model with no extra options.
Gauss... One shot, no blast on a model this pricey? Nah, I have other platforms for that.
And as for Particle Shredder, I already have Tomb Blades and Spyders on that avenue, though it could work if against the right saves.
Leaning default, I guess. Seems the most flexible.
In terms of using Necrons outside of the Decurion, I'm wondering about a MSU army. Since small units are no longer penalised by RP, I'm thinking along the lines of a lot of 5-man squads. 4-6 5-man immortal squads as troops, 2 squads of 5 Preatorians, 2 squads of 5 deathmarks, maybe some destroyers, that sort of thing.
Does that sound reasonable?
Also, any idea what to use for my HQ in that sort of army (and where to put him)?
vipoid wrote: In terms of using Necrons outside of the Decurion, I'm wondering about a MSU army. Since small units are no longer penalised by RP, I'm thinking along the lines of a lot of 5-man squads. 4-6 5-man immortal squads as troops, 2 squads of 5 Preatorians, 2 squads of 5 deathmarks, maybe some destroyers, that sort of thing.
Does that sound reasonable?
Also, any idea what to use for my HQ in that sort of army (and where to put him)?
I'd still want large blobs to put the HQs (like Crypteks) in because of their buffs to the entire unit. Otherwise, a MSU army would be annoying but I don't think it'll be very lethal.
vipoid wrote: In terms of using Necrons outside of the Decurion, I'm wondering about a MSU army. Since small units are no longer penalised by RP, I'm thinking along the lines of a lot of 5-man squads. 4-6 5-man immortal squads as troops, 2 squads of 5 Preatorians, 2 squads of 5 deathmarks, maybe some destroyers, that sort of thing.
Does that sound reasonable?
Also, any idea what to use for my HQ in that sort of army (and where to put him)?
I've been thinking about this myself. MSU is the new hotness, and with the loss of Scythe and Barge spam, I was thinking about how to make Cron MSU work.
The best solution I have so far is destroyers. 6D6H Cult is probably the best setup for them, that's 4 3-man squads, 6 lascannons overall, and all very mobile and resilient on top of their shooting. Anyone that wants to kill them has to go through 6W/T5/3+/RP per squad, which is fairly hardy for a 130/150 point unit imo.
Praetorian 5 man squads with Rods aren't bad. If taken in the Judicator battalion, not only do they have the Formation Targeting thingy, but they also get Move Through Cover, so they can hug cover against AP3 weaponry. They're much less durable than Destroyers or Wraiths, but they're quick and have five AP2 guns per squad, rerolling everything if the Stalker is still alive. That's not a bad unit overall, but they'll die to focus fire much easier than Wraiths.
Lychguard are high on my list of units to try. Slow on the field, but pop them in a Night Scythe with HQ support (as I keep soapboxing, Orikan is GREAT with Shieldguard), and then drop them in the enemy gunline. Panic will ensue, and they'll chop everything except Terminators into paste (and will even kill them if you have Orikan/Warscythes in there).
I haven't gotten my Tomb Blades out, but I think they could do it. 3 are not very tough (1W/T5/3+/RP/Jink), but 3 squads of 3 could be better than 1 squad of 9 in some situations. Like if you want to give some Gauss and some Tesla and allow them to shoot at different targets, or to make it so they don't all have to jink at once. Still, just have to make sure they don't give up first blood.
Not much else wants to be in MSU small squads, except maybe Immortals in a Scythe. Warriors and Flayed Ones want to be in big blobs. Wraiths rarely want to be below 5.
Tomb Blades murdered the Kroot, but I was unable to do anything against the Riptides aside of being locked against them in CC. At the end I won because objectives.
Tomb Blades murdered the Kroot, but I was unable to do anything against the Riptides aside of being locked against them in CC. At the end I won because objectives.
Oh, and the Stalker was nuked in the first turn.
That does not surprise me in the least. It seems that everyone in my FLGShates my Stalker, I rarely have it live past Turn 3. I mean, I get that it buffs my Troops, but people just hate the thing with a passion.
vipoid wrote: In terms of using Necrons outside of the Decurion, I'm wondering about a MSU army. Since small units are no longer penalised by RP, I'm thinking along the lines of a lot of 5-man squads. 4-6 5-man immortal squads as troops, 2 squads of 5 Preatorians, 2 squads of 5 deathmarks, maybe some destroyers, that sort of thing.
Does that sound reasonable?
Also, any idea what to use for my HQ in that sort of army (and where to put him)?
with the loss of Scythe and Barge spam
Does +30 points each really constitute the end of NS and AB of spamability? +90 points for 3 ABs in a 1500/1850/2000pt game? 130 points for NSs, embark a squad for 85pts, ends up being 5 more points than an Eldar DA squad in an WS with scatter/holofied.
Byte wrote: Does +30 points each really constitute the end of NS and AB of spamability? +90 points for 3 ABs in a 1500/1850/2000pt game? 130 points for NSs, embark a squad for 85pts, ends up being 5 more points than an Eldar DA squad in an WS with scatter/holofied.
Yes, since Barges are 30 points more and Night Scythe are 50 points more.
What people forgot with NS's is that Warriors got a minimum of 10, so you would take Immortals for the spam and that brings the total to 50 more points than before.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
vipoid wrote: Well, at the very least, I still plan to try my Annihilation Barges.
Nothing wrong with that, I just don't think you want to spam as much as possible in the new Codex A Doomsday Ark is only 40 points more and can really ruin the opponents' day.
The entire point of the formation is just on your first turn Teleport the Wraiths who have Reanimation Protocols, into your opponents Deployment zone 12inches away from him.
Then advance with the 2nd unit of Wraiths.
When you get shot at Pop Res Orb to reroll your 3+ 5+. Or just tank it with a 4+, 5+ 5+ on the Destroyer lord.
It also works with the Decurion formation
1 Overlord w/ Warscythe , Res Orb, Veil of Darkness, Phase Shifter
Tomb Blades murdered the Kroot, but I was unable to do anything against the Riptides aside of being locked against them in CC. At the end I won because objectives.
Oh, and the Stalker was nuked in the first turn.
Out of curiosity, what killed the Stalker and how much fire did it take to do that?
Also, what did you list look like?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Yeah so this kind of popped into my head and I want to try it now. I call it Wraith bomb
Destroyer Lord w/ Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Veil of Darkness
The entire point of the formation is just on your first turn Teleport the Wraiths who have Reanimation Protocols, into your opponents Deployment zone 12inches away from him.
Then advance with the 2nd unit of Wraiths.
When you get shot at Pop Res Orb to reroll your 3+ 5+. Or just tank it with a 4+, 5+ 5+ on the Destroyer lord.
I like it! Seems fun an evil lol.
What do you think about trying out a solar staff on the destroyer lord to force snap firing on the wraith group? Just in case the opponent tries to knock out your Spyder first to deny the wraiths RP
You can't have both unfortunately on your D. Lord , it's Veil or nothing however you can just Purchase a Cryptek with it and teleport him with them or if you go first attach him to the Wraith Squad thats not Teleporting , activate the Staff them run them up the table.
Good Luck killing one unit that get's invisibility for a turn and moves 12" plus Fleet, and another that is a 3+, 5+ 5+.
You'll lose the RP after the 2nd Turn but you should have pretty much charged your opponents army by then with one of the groups of Wraiths then you can get the Spyder near them again.
You can also just
Overlord w/ Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Warscyth, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek w/ Sun Staff
or
D. Lord same set up
Cryptek Sun Staff
The Wraiths then get 4+ RP with the Cryptek attached and get to Reroll it if your feeling Frisky with the Res Orb from the D. Lord , basically don't shoot or charge that unit.
Or you can put them all together with the other wraiths, the ones without ressurection protocol and teleport that group instead.
Also you can do this...
If you go first .Start the Cryptek with the Staff of Light with the Wraiths that do not have R Protocol, Activate it on your first turn.
Teleport with the Wraiths that have R Protocol and the Warlord with the Rez orb
So the list could just be
Destroyer Lord w/ Res Orb, Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek with Solar Staff
That's pretty much 1850 actually a little bit less but then you still got the combo. So you could teleport all of that the Cryptek and the Wraiths with the Solar Staff.
Also, the Cryptek can just activate the Solar Staff if your opponent tries to shoot the Wraiths w/ D-Lord on the first turn if he goes first and he's attached to them.
I'm building my Tomb Blades and want to put Tesla Carbines and Nebulascopes on them for the sole reason that this is the coolest-looking variant.
But the scopes and the tesla don't seem to go together at all. :( Am I missing something? Because they have no AP most things will have an armor save anyway.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah the Gauss and Beamers are honestly better than the Carbine.
FUN FACT!!
How much would you think that 10 Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, and Nebuloscopes cost?
210 Yes?
Well You'd be WRONG!!
That's right here's one easy way to save points and frustrate your opponents.
Equip only more than half of the squad with shield vanes!!
10 Tomb Blades w/ 6 that have shield vanes saves 8 points because the majority armour save is 3+.
Saves aren't done like Toughness... saves are made on a model-per-model basis. those 4 models will only have 4+ saves regardless of what the other 6 have.
Excuse me if this has been touched on anywhere, but how are you guys loading out your overlords? I'm taking the reclamation legion and two Canoptek harvests in my list so far, but haven't decided on if I should go with CCB and WS or not. What else are you guys adding to them in that mode as well as if you were going to footslog them?
Tomb Blades murdered the Kroot, but I was unable to do anything against the Riptides aside of being locked against them in CC. At the end I won because objectives.
Oh, and the Stalker was nuked in the first turn.
Out of curiosity, what killed the Stalker and how much fire did it take to do that?
Also, what did you list look like?
2 Crisis suits with missiles with a buffmander.
My list was a Decurion detachement with 3 full units of Tomb Blades and a Judicator Battalion.
I'm ambivalent about the Barge right now. I feel like if your gonna take one you should make him a boss. If not barebones , pretty much nothing, come at me brah. How I've tried him out...
Zimko wrote: Similar to that but with different Troops, here's another idea for 1850 competitive:
CAD HQ Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Troops 19x Warriors w/ Ark
19x Warriors w/ Ark
Fast Attack 6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
Heavy Support 2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
It doesn't have AA specifically but I don't think we really need it. We just need to survive flyers.
Theres almost no reason not to split your troops into 4 units IMHO
Put the 9 with cryptek on the ground and 10 inside the arc. 4 units is almost always better then 2 and you actually are just as resilient IMO by having a unit embarked.
Zimko wrote: Similar to that but with different Troops, here's another idea for 1850 competitive:
CAD HQ Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Troops 19x Warriors w/ Ark
19x Warriors w/ Ark
Fast Attack 6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
Heavy Support 2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
It doesn't have AA specifically but I don't think we really need it. We just need to survive flyers.
Theres almost no reason not to split your troops into 4 units IMHO
Put the 9 with cryptek on the ground and 10 inside the arc. 4 units is almost always better then 2 and you actually are just as resilient IMO by having a unit embarked.
He'd have to squeeze points for 2 more warriors since min unit size is 10, but that's probably a good idea. Even with the smaller units it's pretty unlikely that you give up FB.
Zimko wrote: Similar to that but with different Troops, here's another idea for 1850 competitive:
CAD HQ Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Troops 19x Warriors w/ Ark
19x Warriors w/ Ark
Fast Attack 6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
Heavy Support 2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
It doesn't have AA specifically but I don't think we really need it. We just need to survive flyers.
Theres almost no reason not to split your troops into 4 units IMHO
Put the 9 with cryptek on the ground and 10 inside the arc. 4 units is almost always better then 2 and you actually are just as resilient IMO by having a unit embarked.
I don't know, I think the very fact that he has Crypteks with Chronomotrons is a good reason to go brick with them. I'd rather have 40 Warriors with 5++/RP4+ the 20 with and 20 without.
I really dig that list ZImko, very solid.
Automatically Appended Next Post: As people have been finding out Stalkers are going to have giant targets on them, which is a good reason to still bring the HGC, so we can stay as far away as possible.
I'm feeling the standard on mine, just because both Melta and Heavy Flamer templates are things in more demand then more Heavy Gauss, but I'll have to keep an eye on it.
Also, remember most of the weapons that people use to kill Stalkers also tends to be pointed at Destroyers and Tomb Blades and the like, so there is a lot of good overlap, there, at least.
Zimko wrote: Similar to that but with different Troops, here's another idea for 1850 competitive:
CAD HQ Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Troops 19x Warriors w/ Ark
19x Warriors w/ Ark
Fast Attack 6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
9x Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes
Heavy Support 2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
2x Heavy Destroyers
It doesn't have AA specifically but I don't think we really need it. We just need to survive flyers.
Theres almost no reason not to split your troops into 4 units IMHO
Put the 9 with cryptek on the ground and 10 inside the arc. 4 units is almost always better then 2 and you actually are just as resilient IMO by having a unit embarked.
Like Shadar said, I'd lose the synergy of the Cryptek's 5++ and +1 RP for half of the Warriors and I'd have to find points to fill out the full 40 warriors.
I mostly play in the NOVA open format where you may have 2 or 3 objectives on your side of the board and 1 in the middle and 2 to 3 objectives in your opponent's board half. There's also massive LOS blockers in the middle of board. These blobs will be great for holding the objectives on my side while the Wraiths and Tomb Blades use their mobility to steal objectives.
Yep, exactly, and getting Ob Sec on all of that is really, really nice. That's the thing about the Decurion, is they had to make it pretty solid to talk you out of Ob Sec. It's a really solid mechanic, because both directions have good reasons for taking them. Ob Sec GAs and Warriors and Immortals is really, really nice. Particularly if you can combine it with Szzeras and other Crypteks to get RP back up to 4+.
Then again, army wide 4+, Relentless and MtC are really nice, too. So is being able to spam, say, 10 groups of Flayed Ones.
Yeah if you are going with big blocks seriously consider Illuminor, he's got the same stats pretty much of a Cryptek, but gives everyone within 6 inches +1 RP, and buffs a warriors squad with a 1/3 chance of getting +1 T , or the other good one BS.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah if you are going with big blocks seriously consider Illuminor, he's got the same stats pretty much of a Cryptek, but gives everyone within 6 inches +1 RP, and buffs a warriors squad with a 1/3 chance of getting +1 T , or the other good one BS.
Yep. I've considered Illuminor in a Decurion. Guaranteed 4+ RP against ID, and Relentless makes +1 S a little more relevant. 20 Rapid Fire Relentless Warriors with S5 is no joke on the assault.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Playing around with an Anraykr super Immortal build :
Anraykr
Orrikan
Sszeras
Cryptek + Chronotek + RO + Veil
Lord + RO + Solar Staff + WS 10 x Tesla Immortals
Night Scythe
Whats 940 points among friends, lol? Obviously, Illuminor would run with another squad and is just being mentioned for his buff. This is literally the only time I would use Tesla Immortals. This is assuming a CAD + Royal Court formation, to keep OS on the Immortals. You could of course do this in the Decurion and get relentless and Gauss.
Somewhat paradoxically, while scarabs got more expensive and are in some ways not as good as before, the full scarab farm list is actually more viable for tournaments, for one simple reason: Scarabs can now hurt imperial knights. Before, running 9 spyders felt a bit silly because you kinda had to take stormteks in a list that was already really good against vehicles, just because one type of vehicle was immune to scarabs.
Here's a list I'll take to a tournament next week. It's obviously not balanced, being almost pure assault, but the ghost arks do offer some shooting for removing bubble wraps and so on. The TO ruled that wraiths ignore terrain also for their initiative in assault, hence all the whip coils.
I actually can't stand the detachment. I've been running a list with the regular FOC and been doing great.
I've been running Szeraz, crypteks, immortals, triarch stalkers, destroyers and heavy destroyers and you get a 3+4+ on everything, bs5 when you cuddle stalkers.
Ran a 2000pt Decurion last night against Chaos Daemons. I had 3 Tomb Blades,5 Immortals, 1 Overlord, 80 Warriors, 5 Deathmarks, and 10 Flayed ones. He fielded 2 Greater Daemon characters, I don't recall the names of Khorne and Nurgle, 4 winged Daemon Princes, 3 10 man squads of Daemons (Plague Bearers, and Khorne Blood letters), and 10ish bases of Nurglings.
I was able to dispatch the the Nurglings, a squad of Blood Letters, and gets few wounds on 3 of the MCs.
He was able to crush the MSUs I fielded with no difficulty, and a mob of 20 of my warriors with overlord, using the combined effort of the MCs of Khorne.
I conceded the match on turn 4
Warriors were just a mediocre tar pit for MCs.. The needing 5's to hit and 6's to wound, if they could wound at all. Or standing there useless unable to shoot at MC is assualts.
Tomb Blades functioned as more expensive Immortals. Admittedly, I made the list quick and didn't buy the option to ignore cover for them, but at their squad size of 3, it wouldn't have mattered much.
The Immotals managed to inflict no wounds on the Plague Father, and were destroyed in assault with a Nurgle Daemon Prince
The Overlord was kitted out nicely, but took a single wound that caused instant death, before even getting off an attack.
The Deathmarks put 4 wounds on the Giant Nurgle Plague Father, but then were imediately tied up in an assualt they couldn't win with Plague Bearers.
The Flayed Ones came in turn 2, assaulted in turn 3, rolled porly for damage, and managed to wupe out a squad of Bloodletters in turn 4.
I play with good friends, so it's wasy for me to have fun, even when I'm losing. It was just disheartenind that his army was absolutely ROCK to my scissors.
Flayed Ones in assault are awesome. Getting Flayed Ones into assault not so much.. He had infitrated his Nurglings first leaving the Flayed Ones no where good to go, so they outflanked. They arrived turn 2, and didn't get to assault until turn 3. Huge improvement from where they were last edition though, and I'm thinking of converting some plastic warriors into another squad of Flayed Ones.
Necrons are dead hard to kill now, but I'm having a hard time finding the right list building balance that can cope with high AV, MCs, and assaults, without shifting to hordes of Lcyhguard.
Not coincidently, I just purchased 30 Lychguard/Praetoreans.
That's why I really think the Destroyer Lord is a great add to them, he can deep strike with them or outflank and carrying a Warscythe he provides needed Anti-Av.
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe , Super Orb!, Phase Shifter ( 195)
Illuminor Szeras (110)
Elites
Triarch Stalker x 1 w/ H. Gauss Cannon (140)
15 Flayed Ones (195)
Troops
15 Warriors (195)
10 Warriors w/ Ghost Ark (235)
Fast Attack
10 Tomb Blades Shield Vanes, Nebuloscopes(210)
6 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils (258)
H. Support
2 H. Destroyers (100)
2 H. Destroyers (100)
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun (75?)
Total : 1813
I pointed it out in a thread, but I'm pretty sure that Destroyers from the destroyer cult confer their Exterimation protocols on Independent Characters that join the squad.
It at first seems like it wouldn't matter then you read Illuminors Eldritch Lance which is St8 AP2 lance that can reroll armour penetration which is pretty good plus it's assault so he can move and shoot it so it's not like he can't be mobile, plus he gives them a +1 RP and they give him Preferred Enemy which at his BS 4 is interesting and great.
Hollismason wrote: Wait can you have a Mephrit Dynasty Decurion Detachment???
No, you can't.
Hollismason wrote: I pointed it out in a thread, but I'm pretty sure that Destroyers from the destroyer cult confer their Exterimation protocols on Independent Characters that join the squad.
It at first seems like it wouldn't matter then you read Illuminors Eldritch Lance which is St8 AP2 lance that can reroll armour penetration which is pretty good plus it's assault so he can move and shoot it so it's not like he can't be mobile, plus he gives them a +1 RP and they give him Preferred Enemy which at his BS 4 is interesting and great.
That would work, but why would you?
For the same amount of points you could take two Heavy Destroyers, they wouldn't have the S8 + Lance but just a normal 2x S9.
He gives the other H. Destroyers with in 6" of him +1 RP. He's a good add to a firebase making them more resilient like so..
Illuminor
Elites
1- 2 Triarch Stalkers (w/ H. Gauss)
Troops
15 Warriors
The reason you want this Large Block is that this block if in front of have a 33% chance to have BS6 +1 Illuminor, +1 Stalker, or have +1T and a 4+ Save from Illuminor
Add Some other Stuff here
Fast Attack
Add some other stuff here if you want most likely wraiths
H. Support
I'd actually play with Annihilation Barges for this and maybe just 2 H. Destroyers
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord
Destroyers
Destroyers
Destroyers
3 H. Destroyers
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad
Now you've got a Fire Base with a 4+ cover 2 Twin Linked BS 4 , 1 BS5 Preferred Enemy ST8 AP2 Gauss, 3 ST9 AP2 .. you've also got a chance that the large block of Warriors in front or near will have BS 6 or T5 and BS5... that's really good.
Having him in the troops as they jump-shoot-jump behind the stalkers to hand out the +1 RP is good. Having him with the Destroyers so they can't jump-shoot-jump, less so.
Hollismason wrote: He gives the other H. Destroyers with in 6" of him +1 RP. He's a good add to a firebase making them more resilient like so..
Illuminor
Elites
Triarch Stalker (w/ H. Gauss)
Triarch Stalker (w/ H. Gauss)
Troops
15 Troops
The reason you want this Large Block is that this block if in front of have a 33% chance to have BS6 +1 Illuminor, +1 Stalker, or have +1T and a 4+ Save from Illuminor
Fast Attack
H. Support
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord
Destroyers
Destroyers
Destroyers
3 H. Destroyers
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad
Now you've got a Fire Base with a 4+ cover 2 Twin Linked BS 4 , 1 BS5 Preferred Enemy ST8 AP2 Gauss, 3 ST9 AP2 .. you've also got a chance that the large block of Warriors in front or near will have BS 6 or T5 and BS5... that's really good.
Dont you need minimum 2 troops or is 15 troops a mix of immortals and warriors?
adamsouza wrote: Ran a 2000pt Decurion last night against Chaos Daemons. I had 3 Tomb Blades,5 Immortals, 1 Overlord, 80 Warriors, 5 Deathmarks, and 10 Flayed ones. He fielded 2 Greater Daemon characters, I don't recall the names of Khorne and Nurgle, 4 winged Daemon Princes, 3 10 man squads of Daemons (Plague Bearers, and Khorne Blood letters), and 10ish bases of Nurglings.
I was able to dispatch the the Nurglings, a squad of Blood Letters, and gets few wounds on 3 of the MCs.
He was able to crush the MSUs I fielded with no difficulty, and a mob of 20 of my warriors with overlord, using the combined effort of the MCs of Khorne.
I conceded the match on turn 4
Warriors were just a mediocre tar pit for MCs.. The needing 5's to hit and 6's to wound, if they could wound at all. Or standing there useless unable to shoot at MC is assualts.
Tomb Blades functioned as more expensive Immortals. Admittedly, I made the list quick and didn't buy the option to ignore cover for them, but at their squad size of 3, it wouldn't have mattered much.
The Immotals managed to inflict no wounds on the Plague Father, and were destroyed in assault with a Nurgle Daemon Prince
The Overlord was kitted out nicely, but took a single wound that caused instant death, before even getting off an attack.
The Deathmarks put 4 wounds on the Giant Nurgle Plague Father, but then were imediately tied up in an assualt they couldn't win with Plague Bearers.
The Flayed Ones came in turn 2, assaulted in turn 3, rolled porly for damage, and managed to wupe out a squad of Bloodletters in turn 4.
I know these kind of battles.
Against Daemons I usually take my 15 Wraiths.
The opponents always got greedy to destroy my army especially the Wraiths usually deployed so that one flank is refused.
Later on my Night Scythes with the troops came in to clear the smaller buggers and go for the objectives.
I wrote that when I was sleepy. It should be 15 Warriors 5 Immortals, it's not really a definitive army list just saying what one could possibly look like in a rough draft.
You've got a big fat block of Warriors, lots of support units. Etc..
Hollismason wrote: He gives the other H. Destroyers with in 6" of him +1 RP. He's a good add to a firebase making them more resilient like so..
Illuminor
Elites
Triarch Stalker (w/ H. Gauss)
Triarch Stalker (w/ H. Gauss)
Troops
15 Troops
The reason you want this Large Block is that this block if in front of have a 33% chance to have BS6 +1 Illuminor, +1 Stalker, or have +1T and a 4+ Save from Illuminor
Fast Attack
H. Support
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord
Destroyers
Destroyers
Destroyers
3 H. Destroyers
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad
Now you've got a Fire Base with a 4+ cover 2 Twin Linked BS 4 , 1 BS5 Preferred Enemy ST8 AP2 Gauss, 3 ST9 AP2 .. you've also got a chance that the large block of Warriors in front or near will have BS 6 or T5 and BS5... that's really good.
Dont you need minimum 2 troops or is 15 troops a mix of immortals and warriors?
Just a rough draft not a definitive army. I'll post one definitiively later
Interesting list-building concept that I've been tossing around in my head:
We know that we can't grab Mephrit relics without an obscene non-obsec troop tax, but we do have Orikan who can do something similar (and for a unit, not just a model).
So, with that in mind, I present the core of my Wraithstar build:
Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, warscythe, phase shifter, res orb
Orikan the Diviner
Canoptek Harvest w/6 wraiths (of course)
So this slows down the unit a bit, but they will be absolutely unkillable until the Spyder dies (at which point they can speed up/should be in combat anyhow). It struggles a bit having Orikan in the unit, but that will allow the Spyder to keep pace and the unit can stretch out. This makes for the D Lord having a re-rollable 2+, as well as 4+ RP. The wraiths also have 4+ RP and a 3++ re-rolling 1's, which is about 5% worse than a 2++.
I'm also toying around with saying screw the harvest formation, but I feel like if you're goig to have Orikan in the unit, it just benefits so much to have the Spyder tag along right behind him.
That's a really expensive unit that hinges on you keeping that Spyder alive otherwise you've just got a footslogging unit basically.
Sure it's impossible to kill probably if the Spyder stays alive but I dunno why you'd keep taking it.
I think that Scarab Farm is alive and well , more so than people think...
Here's why:
The Canoptek Harvest allows you to go above the amount of FOC that is required so you can now have a Scarab farm list and Wraith lists avoiding the Fast Attack slots all together and dedicating them to stuff like Tomb Blades.
Great now you can just Congo Line 2 Squads of 5+ + RP Scarabs down the battle field.
Normally you couldn't really do Scarab Farm and Canoptek Wraith lists because they both took up valuable FOC of Fast Attack.
Now it's possible to do both.
Scarabs now though have the ability to hurt Super Heavies which is great plus the Scarab farm is now putting out more point values and making them 5++
With the Addition of just 1 Squad of Spyders you can put out 6 Scarab units a turn.
luke1705 wrote: Interesting list-building concept that I've been tossing around in my head:
We know that we can't grab Mephrit relics without an obscene non-obsec troop tax, but we do have Orikan who can do something similar (and for a unit, not just a model).
So, with that in mind, I present the core of my Wraithstar build:
Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, warscythe, phase shifter, res orb
Orikan the Diviner
Canoptek Harvest w/6 wraiths (of course)
So this slows down the unit a bit, but they will be absolutely unkillable until the Spyder dies (at which point they can speed up/should be in combat anyhow). It struggles a bit having Orikan in the unit, but that will allow the Spyder to keep pace and the unit can stretch out. This makes for the D Lord having a re-rollable 2+, as well as 4+ RP. The wraiths also have 4+ RP and a 3++ re-rolling 1's, which is about 5% worse than a 2++.
I'm also toying around with saying screw the harvest formation, but I feel like if you're goig to have Orikan in the unit, it just benefits so much to have the Spyder tag along right behind him.
This formation could be viable in a non-Decursion.
However, I'd take 10 to 12 Wraiths in the army.
luke1705 wrote: Interesting list-building concept that I've been tossing around in my head:
We know that we can't grab Mephrit relics without an obscene non-obsec troop tax, but we do have Orikan who can do something similar (and for a unit, not just a model).
So, with that in mind, I present the core of my Wraithstar build:
Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, warscythe, phase shifter, res orb
Orikan the Diviner
Canoptek Harvest w/6 wraiths (of course)
So this slows down the unit a bit, but they will be absolutely unkillable until the Spyder dies (at which point they can speed up/should be in combat anyhow). It struggles a bit having Orikan in the unit, but that will allow the Spyder to keep pace and the unit can stretch out. This makes for the D Lord having a re-rollable 2+, as well as 4+ RP. The wraiths also have 4+ RP and a 3++ re-rolling 1's, which is about 5% worse than a 2++.
I'm also toying around with saying screw the harvest formation, but I feel like if you're goig to have Orikan in the unit, it just benefits so much to have the Spyder tag along right behind him.
This formation could be viable in a non-Decursion.
However, I'd take 10 to 12 Wraiths in the army.
Oh definitely wouldn't be a Decurion. And I thought more wraiths were a given
luke1705 wrote: Interesting list-building concept that I've been tossing around in my head:
We know that we can't grab Mephrit relics without an obscene non-obsec troop tax, but we do have Orikan who can do something similar (and for a unit, not just a model).
So, with that in mind, I present the core of my Wraithstar build:
Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, warscythe, phase shifter, res orb
Orikan the Diviner
Canoptek Harvest w/6 wraiths (of course)
So this slows down the unit a bit, but they will be absolutely unkillable until the Spyder dies (at which point they can speed up/should be in combat anyhow). It struggles a bit having Orikan in the unit, but that will allow the Spyder to keep pace and the unit can stretch out. This makes for the D Lord having a re-rollable 2+, as well as 4+ RP. The wraiths also have 4+ RP and a 3++ re-rolling 1's, which is about 5% worse than a 2++.
I'm also toying around with saying screw the harvest formation, but I feel like if you're goig to have Orikan in the unit, it just benefits so much to have the Spyder tag along right behind him.
This formation could be viable in a non-Decursion.
However, I'd take 10 to 12 Wraiths in the army.
Oh definitely wouldn't be a Decurion. And I thought more wraiths were a given
The DLord seems not to be mandatory here, since he will eventually lag behind.
His role tanking wounds as frontliner is gone.
luke1705 wrote: Interesting list-building concept that I've been tossing around in my head:
We know that we can't grab Mephrit relics without an obscene non-obsec troop tax, but we do have Orikan who can do something similar (and for a unit, not just a model).
So, with that in mind, I present the core of my Wraithstar build:
Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, warscythe, phase shifter, res orb
Orikan the Diviner
Canoptek Harvest w/6 wraiths (of course)
So this slows down the unit a bit, but they will be absolutely unkillable until the Spyder dies (at which point they can speed up/should be in combat anyhow). It struggles a bit having Orikan in the unit, but that will allow the Spyder to keep pace and the unit can stretch out. This makes for the D Lord having a re-rollable 2+, as well as 4+ RP. The wraiths also have 4+ RP and a 3++ re-rolling 1's, which is about 5% worse than a 2++.
I'm also toying around with saying screw the harvest formation, but I feel like if you're goig to have Orikan in the unit, it just benefits so much to have the Spyder tag along right behind him.
This formation could be viable in a non-Decursion.
However, I'd take 10 to 12 Wraiths in the army.
Oh definitely wouldn't be a Decurion. And I thought more wraiths were a given
The DLord seems not to be mandatory here, since he will eventually lag behind.
His role tanking wounds as frontliner is gone.
Actually, it's not as bad as you think. Wraiths move an extra 6", but the Lord jumps 2d6 in the assault phase. On average, that's 7 inches. If you have him tanking to start the turn, and move the wraiths say, 11 inches instead of 12, then you would still be tanking from most angles on a 2d6 roll of 5+. And if you roll higher, then that can compensate for a later turn when you might not roll quite as well. That's to say nothing of how quickly that unit is likely to get into assault. Furthermore, he will tank shots during enemy shooting but not have wounds allocated directly to him during assault because he is no longer at the front of the unit (all without appreciably increasing charge distance). I mean, you lose fleet, and also lose the wraithflight terrain bonus (even if the lord doesn't directly touch terrain IIRC) but for that kind of tank, plus PE and a round of RP re-roll, you're really looking pretty good.
And I mean, I'll be honest. I just want Orikan to go Super Saiyan and have it be worthwhile haha.
Gork and Mork wrote: Is there any way to reliably kill Orikan attatched to lychguard with shields? He is so broken imo
Grab someone with a 2+ armor save. They have to sacrifice the warscythe for the shield. They are still AP 3 but no scythe :( if they had the scythe, THAT would be broken.
Gork and Mork wrote: Is there any way to reliably kill Orikan attatched to lychguard with shields? He is so broken imo
Grab someone with a 2+ armor save. They have to sacrifice the warscythe for the shield. They are still AP 3 but no scythe :( if they had the scythe, THAT would be broken.
Orikan has AP2.
He punched three hull points off a Knight before dying when I fielded him yesterday. 4++ rerolling ones 4+++ is really good.
(Irrelevant side note: I really should have turned that game down when a guy tried to field a Knight and a Gravcentstar in a 1000 point casual game, but frankly I was curious to see the superheavy in action.)
Where is Orikan the Empowered Profile at in the book? I'm using an E-Book. Also, hilariously I don't think Orikan's ability of rerolling saving throws of a 1 works on the Reanimation Protocols, just normal armour saves.
ugh, what is the formulae for percentage chance addition, I always forget it. It's not a straight addition.
Gork and Mork wrote: Is there any way to reliably kill Orikan attatched to lychguard with shields? He is so broken imo
Grab someone with a 2+ armor save. They have to sacrifice the warscythe for the shield. They are still AP 3 but no scythe :( if they had the scythe, THAT would be broken.
Orikan has AP2.
He punched three hull points off a Knight before dying when I fielded him yesterday. 4++ rerolling ones 4+++ is really good.
(Irrelevant side note: I really should have turned that game down when a guy tried to field a Knight and a Gravcentstar in a 1000 point casual game, but frankly I was curious to see the superheavy in action.)
My bad I was thinking of the generic cryptek staff. That's pretty impressive though. Reminds me of the old Necron Lords. My buddy had one stand toe to toe with a creature that effectively had the profile of Ang'grath in an apoc game (kitted out to the max naturally). He just would not die. Ah good times.
So am I right in thinking that we seem to be gravitating away from the Decurion and saying "grab a cryptek of some kind" for the unit that we really want to have stupid durability? Aside from the wraith formation, that can all be achieved with a regular CAD. So unless you're like me and trying to get 18 RP wraiths with some sort of obsec under the 2 source format, it seems to be a solid way to go.
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Hollismason wrote: Where is Orikan the Empowered Profile at in the book? I'm using an E-Book. Also, hilariously I don't think Orikan's ability of rerolling saving throws of a 1 works on the Reanimation Protocols, just normal armour saves.
I have the hard copy and it's just directly underneath his first statline, in the same box.
And that's absolutely correct, it doesn't work on RP because they are explicitly not a "save". However, this means that we can still take them against things that allow "no saves of any kind" and save 75% of those wounds if we decide to pop a res orb for that unit. Kind of silly, really. I'll take that tradeoff all day long
Hollismason wrote: There's no reason not to take the Decurion under certain circumstances.
If for example you were like " Gonna play with a gakload of troops and tombblades"
Take the Decurion.
Honestly I'm not so sure. Maybe unkillable wraiths and flayed ones solve your problems, in addition to the above units. But I do wonder if armies like that fall under the "table or lose" mentality due to the lack of Obsec
I don't think so because you can make very beefy CC oriented and shooty Decurion Detachments easily that don't require you to take like 3 Squads of Wraiths. I think the strength now isn't in spamming units but just overwhelming your opponent with to many threats. 2 Squads of Praetorians, 2 Squads of Flayed Ones, etc.. are all good units. That all have 4+ invulnerable basically.
Decurions a serious contender, if people would just get away from the " I have to take 24 Goddamn Wraiths or my army is not Competitive" mindset.
There certainly is a good amount of synergy between a lot of units and not many bad choices. Personally I like wraiths, but I think they will be a complementary (read: single) unit in a competitive list. Maybe 2 max but 3 is too unbalanced for an army that already lacks AA.
Then again, who knows? Maybe Wraithstar will be a thing with Orikan. I'll be trying it out regardless of how good it is
Hollismason wrote: I don't think so because you can make very beefy CC oriented and shooty Decurion Detachments easily that don't require you to take like 3 Squads of Wraiths. I think the strength now isn't in spamming units but just overwhelming your opponent with to many threats. 2 Squads of Praetorians, 2 Squads of Flayed Ones, etc.. are all good units. That all have 4+ invulnerable basically.
Decurions a serious contender, if people would just get away from the " I have to take 24 Goddamn Wraiths or my army is not Competitive" mindset.
I can't wait till they come out with plastic Flayed Ones. 20 of them with a D-lord with a Solar Staff DSing behind you. SURPRISE.
Hollismason wrote: You can just start them in a Ghost Ark if you want to use the FOC , Fast Attack purchase.
Just go with a CAD and a Royal court Formation.
I don't mind keeping a unit of 10 warriors on foot in the back.
Plus if you throw a veil of darkness in there you can decide to use that to get that deathstar royal court where you want.
The big benefit of running Lords over Lychguard is exactly the GA assault plan. Plus, the GoF you can throw on the Lords and Overlords has serious coolness.
Anyway, this star looks to be the most optimal the codex has to offer. Critiques? Suggestions?
The advantage is - Orikan + Nightmare Shroud Overlord means you basically ignore all non-AP2 attacks. It's like the old Baron-Star.
The (huge) disadvantage is that (unlike old Baron), we fall back on a 4++/4+RP against AP2 hits. Which is decent, we save about four in five of them, but that starts to add up, and opens the door to bad-luck streaks.
Humourously, an Overlord with Phase Shifter (and Hypherphase sword or Voidblade) is a decent addition - 35 points per wound with a 4++ makes him worse than a Shield Lychguard, but gets him into the Ark.
Orikan, 2 Lords with WS, 1 Overlord WS, PS, NS, 1 overlord Hyperphase, PS all inside a Ghost Ark will run you 630 points.
It's impressively resilient, but only puts out 12 attacks / 17 on the charge.
Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb - 215
Orikan the Diviner - 120
20 Flayed Ones - 260
Ok so that is 595. If you really want to cut some points you can take a normal cryptek over Orikan, but Orikan brings so much to the table. A normal cryptek can give a 5++ in shooting to the Flayed Ones, but I'd rather have more high strength AP2 so that the Lord doesn't have to do quite so much work. These guys are a little slow but you have wraiths to catch things. They can infiltrate and with 4+/4++, they don't care much about cover, and the Lord is a tankmaster. Re-rollable 2+, then a re-rollable 4+ (if you pop the orb, which also confers those re-rolls to the Flayed Ones and Orikan). I mean, when you pop that orb, your opponent can basically just stop rolling the dice against them for that phase.
luke1705 wrote: Destroyer Lord w/Nightmare Shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb - 215
Orikan the Diviner - 120
20 Flayed Ones - 260
Ok so that is 595. If you really want to cut some points you can take a normal cryptek over Orikan, but Orikan brings so much to the table. A normal cryptek can give a 5++ in shooting to the Flayed Ones, but I'd rather have more high strength AP2 so that the Lord doesn't have to do quite so much work. These guys are a little slow but you have wraiths to catch things. They can infiltrate and with 4+/4++, they don't care much about cover, and the Lord is a tankmaster. Re-rollable 2+, then a re-rollable 4+ (if you pop the orb, which also confers those re-rolls to the Flayed Ones and Orikan). I mean, when you pop that orb, your opponent can basically just stop rolling the dice against them for that phase.
What if you took out the phase shifter and res orb then added in another crpytek with the VoD and the blind staff? That way you can keep the unit in reserves and have more chance that Orikan goes super saiyan before entering the game?
Basically immune to shooting the turn you DS in and laugh at anyone who want's to charge you!
Yeah that's a nice beat stick there. Although you could shave off some points by just taking 15 Flayed Ones, that's 75 attacks on the charge. That have Preferred Enemy. You could of course just go crazy and make something like
Destroyer Lord, Res Orb, Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Destroyer Lord, Super Orb, Warscythe, Phase Shifter
20 Flayed Ones
20 Flayed Ones
Troops
5 Immortals in a Nighscythe
5 Immortals in a Nightscythe
Well, I mean, it's not like anyone is realistically going to chew through that unit to get to Orikan before he goes super saiyan. The res orb drastically increases durability (literally by 50 percent for a single phase) and the phase shifter is so that the D Lord can maul whatever he wants. Without it, he's relying only on a 4++ vs AP 2. Not my kind of odds
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Hollismason wrote: Yeah that's a nice beat stick there. Although you could shave off some points by just taking 15 Flayed Ones, that's 75 attacks on the charge. That have Preferred Enemy. I think that's enough honestly.
caelim wrote: The advantage is - Orikan + Nightmare Shroud Overlord means you basically ignore all non-AP2 attacks. It's like the old Baron-Star.
The (huge) disadvantage is that (unlike old Baron), we fall back on a 4++/4+RP against AP2 hits. Which is decent, we save about four in five of them, but that starts to add up, and opens the door to bad-luck streaks.
Humourously, an Overlord with Phase Shifter (and Hypherphase sword or Voidblade) is a decent addition - 35 points per wound with a 4++ makes him worse than a Shield Lychguard, but gets him into the Ark.
Orikan, 2 Lords with WS, 1 Overlord WS, PS, NS, 1 overlord Hyperphase, PS all inside a Ghost Ark will run you 630 points.
It's impressively resilient, but only puts out 12 attacks / 17 on the charge.
Don't forget the flamers. Part of the secret sauce of this deathstar is the cheap GoF spam. Spewing flame out of an open-topped GA is sick!
The lack of resiliency is also why I think that wraithstar with Orikan & tanking D Lord will be a thing (perhaps with the Canoptek formation, perhaps not). Especially since whip coil wraiths will be 2 points less than a brick of 20 FOs and they can hurt more things. What they lack in VOF resiliency due to lack of bodies, they make up for with an effective 2++ (plus the same re-rollable RP if you go that route)
Screw the Decurion, next game I'm running dual a CAD with 12 Canpotek Sypders, 4 units of warriors, 12 flayed ones, and as many scarabs as I can fit in 2k.
Sure the scarabs won't have RP, but the Spyders will be spawning 12 bases of scarabs (240 points worth) per turn and will be able to contend with MCs
adamsouza wrote: Screw the Decurion, next game I'm running dual a CAD with 12 Canpotek Sypders, 4 units of warriors, 12 flayed ones, and as many scarabs as I can fit in 2k.
Sure the scarabs won't have RP, but the Spyders will be spawning 12 bases of scarabs (240 points worth) per turn and will be able to contend with MCs
No reason not to throw a Canoptek Harvest in that list since there is literally no downside. Likely swap the FO for wraiths.
Fairly new 40k player, so I don't think I have a good grasp of all the rules yet, but I have seen at least 2 people say a destroyer lord can deepstrike with flayed ones, with no mention of a veil of darkness. I know the flayed ones have the deepstrike special rule, does an IC that joins that squad also get to deepstrike without having the deepstrike rule? Or was the veil of darkness assumed? Thanks!
As I said, I don't know all the rules. I now see jet pack infantry have the deep strike rule
mike208 wrote: Fairly new 40k player, so I don't think I have a good grasp of all the rules yet, but I have seen at least 2 people say a destroyer lord can deepstrike with flayed ones, with no mention of a veil of darkness. I know the flayed ones have the deepstrike special rule, does an IC that joins that squad also get to deepstrike without having the deepstrike rule? Or was the veil of darkness assumed? Thanks!
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I pointed it out but it's really easy to do a Scarab farm with the Decurion Detachment.
Just take minimal Wraiths in the Harvest up to 12
3 Wraiths
3 Scarabs
1 Tomb Spyder all with Glooms
x4
Gets you 12 Scarab Bases 4 Spyders and 12 Wraiths.
I wrote up a YMDC about this because I'm curious if Spyders from other formations of Canoptek Harvests can confer their bonuses on the others.
Alternatively you could have 1 large scarab swarm (9 bases) and have the 10-12 spyders in the list beef that blob up with +10-12 bases a turn. RP on that blob is sick.
mike208 wrote: Fairly new 40k player, so I don't think I have a good grasp of all the rules yet, but I have seen at least 2 people say a destroyer lord can deepstrike with flayed ones, with no mention of a veil of darkness. I know the flayed ones have the deepstrike special rule, does an IC that joins that squad also get to deepstrike without having the deepstrike rule? Or was the veil of darkness assumed? Thanks!
EDIT: I can now read
Destroyer Lords are jet pack infantry, and can DS by default
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I pointed it out but it's really easy to do a Scarab farm with the Decurion Detachment.
Just take minimal Wraiths in the Harvest up to 12
3 Wraiths
3 Scarabs
1 Tomb Spyder all with Glooms
x4
Gets you 12 Scarab Bases 4 Spyders and 12 Wraiths.
I wrote up a YMDC about this because I'm curious if Spyders from other formations of Canoptek Harvests can confer their bonuses on the others.
Alternatively you could have 1 large scarab swarm (9 bases) and have the 10-12 spyders in the list beef that blob up with +10-12 bases a turn. RP on that blob is sick.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah I pointed it out but it's really easy to do a Scarab farm with the Decurion Detachment.
Just take minimal Wraiths in the Harvest up to 12
3 Wraiths
3 Scarabs
1 Tomb Spyder all with Glooms
x4
Gets you 12 Scarab Bases 4 Spyders and 12 Wraiths.
I wrote up a YMDC about this because I'm curious if Spyders from other formations of Canoptek Harvests can confer their bonuses on the others.
Alternatively you could have 1 large scarab swarm (9 bases) and have the 10-12 spyders in the list beef that blob up with +10-12 bases a turn. RP on that blob is sick.
Royal Court
Orikan the Diviner (Warlord - gets Eternal Wariior!!!!)
Cryptek Chronometron, Staff of Light
Lord Gauntlet of Fire, Voidblade
Lord Gauntlet of Fire, Voidblade
Overlord Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Warscythe
Auxiliary
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
Necrons: Codex Allied Detachment
HQ Destroyer Lord Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Troops 5x Immortal Gauss Blaster (ObjSec)
Fast Attack
6 x Canoptek Wraiths Whip Coils
Orikan and LordStar in a GA, Nightbringer, Wraithstar led by a fully kitted D Lord = lots of stuff to handle the toughest stuff Necrons will face. Meanwhile the backfield is controlled by the uber resilient 2 x 10 warriors and 2 x 5 immortals around the Reclamation overlord.
Two spyders less (and one less scarab base to start with), but freeing up the fast attack allowed me to take some tomb blades which are nice to have. The scarabs won't be nearly as overwhelming since there'll be only a dozen of 'em first turn (as opposed to 18 with the previous list), but they do get the formation bonuses and overall, the list is a bit more flexible and less vulnerable to first turn barrages because it has the extra scarab unit as a back-up. I might just go with this instead.
Is it just me or are Immortals sort of obsolete now? 17 ppm isn't bad, but for 1 pt more you could have a Tomb Blade that gives you double the movement, TL, Relentless, a Cover save (Jink) and you can also Ignore Cover/have the same armour save with further upgrades.
The only advantages I see Immortals bringing are a Nightscythe (not as great as before, but still good) and OS (which if you take a Decurion/Mephrit, you don't get).
I think for Troop Choices I'll probably stick with Warriors w/ Ghost Arks as I usually take CAD. Decurion is mighty strong
The Judicator Battalion seems to get better and better as AA.
I've read the tactic about Stalkers with Heat Rays, which seems to put out a lot of damage.
But how about the two Night Scythes you can add as DT?
If we ignore the entire "Can they carry Praetorians"-discussion they still have a Tesla Destructor which, because of Target Designated, can re-roll armour penetration rolls.
I really like the Formation because it's one Formation that handles our two weaknesses in the Reclamation-Legion: Flyers and Sv2+
I hate to admit it, but they probably are, except in the case of the Night Scythe you mentioned. If need to shoot down a plane and grab an objective in the opposite deployment zone, Immortals are probably the way to go. In nearly all other situations Tomb Blades are better. At first I though Immortals might be useful just sitting on an objective in your own deployment zone, taking pot shots at any intruders with their tesla carbines, but then it hit me that they're probably never going to do anything anyway, and you might as well save 31 points and go with 3 Blades instead of 5 Immortals.
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Kangodo wrote: The Judicator Battalion seems to get better and better as AA.
I've read the tactic about Stalkers with Heat Rays, which seems to put out a lot of damage.
But how about the two Night Scythes you can add as DT?
If we ignore the entire "Can they carry Praetorians"-discussion they still have a Tesla Destructor which, because of Target Designated, can re-roll armour penetration rolls.
I really like the Formation because it's one Formation that handles our two weaknesses in the Reclamation-Legion: Flyers and Sv2+
That's actually a really good point that had completely passed me by. Tesla is still as powerful as ever if you're not jinking, and an average of 6 S7 hits with re-rolls to penetrate is extremely powerful. :O
Frozocrone wrote: Is it just me or are Immortals sort of obsolete now? 17 ppm isn't bad, but for 1 pt more you could have a Tomb Blade that gives you double the movement, TL, Relentless, a Cover save (Jink) and you can also Ignore Cover/have the same armour save with further upgrades.
The only advantages I see Immortals bringing are a Nightscythe (not as great as before, but still good) and OS (which if you take a Decurion/Mephrit, you don't get).
I think for Troop Choices I'll probably stick with Warriors w/ Ghost Arks as I usually take CAD. Decurion is mighty strong
It's 17 to 22 points once blades have upgrades. In a CAD ththe immortals have objective secured. Overall the blades are better, but against many meta threats like serpent shields and HYMP the immortals are much more durable for their cost.
Kangodo wrote: The Judicator Battalion seems to get better and better as AA.
I've read the tactic about Stalkers with Heat Rays, which seems to put out a lot of damage.
But how about the two Night Scythes you can add as DT?
If we ignore the entire "Can they carry Praetorians"-discussion they still have a Tesla Destructor which, because of Target Designated, can re-roll armour penetration rolls.
I really like the Formation because it's one Formation that handles our two weaknesses in the Reclamation-Legion: Flyers and Sv2+
I am quoting this again because it's that good of a suggestion.
2 Praetorians w/ Particle Casters w/ 2 Night Scythes , possibly 2 Triarchs is a hefty price but when you consider it's 2 Really great CC squads, 2 Really Great Anti Tank units possibly, 2 Really great Flyer Killers.
Also, there's nothing that says that the Nightscythes can't possibly come on board and pick a unit up. Like I don't know the squads from the Reclamation legion.
Judicator Battalion x 2
5 Praetorians 1 Nightscythe
5 Praetorians
1 Triach Stalker
Total : 1070
1549 .. that actually not a bad list you've got 20 Fearless models that can carry ST6 shooting weapons. 4 ST8 AP2 shots, a good number of Gauss , CC , and with extra points just purchase a bunch of Tomb Blades..
Royal Court
Orikan the Diviner (Warlord - gets Eternal Wariior!!!!)
Cryptek Chronometron, Staff of Light
Lord Gauntlet of Fire, Voidblade
Lord Gauntlet of Fire, Voidblade
Overlord Gauntlet of Fire, Phase Shifter, Warscythe
Auxiliary
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
Necrons: Codex Allied Detachment
HQ Destroyer Lord Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Warscythe
Troops 5x Immortal Gauss Blaster (ObjSec)
Fast Attack
6 x Canoptek Wraiths Whip Coils
Orikan and LordStar in a GA, Nightbringer, Wraithstar led by a fully kitted D Lord = lots of stuff to handle the toughest stuff Necrons will face. Meanwhile the backfield is controlled by the uber resilient 2 x 10 warriors and 2 x 5 immortals around the Reclamation overlord.
You can't take an Allied Detachment from the same Faction of your Main Detachment.
The LVO and BAO and most major tournaments allow self ally since many books have access to an extra FOC of some kind that allows expanded options. See: Leviathan, Decurion, Mephrit Dynasty, Grey Knights Nemesis Strike Force, to name a few
Also, there's nothing that says that the Nightscythes can't possibly come on board and pick a unit up. Like I don't know the squads from the Reclamation legion.
.
Currently there is no way to embark on the NS from the board.
Hollismason wrote: I thought that was fixed with the FAQ or general FAQ.
It was fixed in the 6th edition Necron FAQ. It was removed in the 7th edition Necron FAQ. Currently the only way a unit can embark on a Night Scythe is by starting the game in the Night Scythe.
So the Nightbringer seems ideally suited for taking care of WK and DK. The Necrons still have a problem with IK unless we resort to just volume of gauss and entropic.
changemod wrote: Lychguard would obliterate a superheavy vehicle. You just need to catch it.
Since SH move 12" that is kind of the rub. The bargeLord is solid against SH that don't have D or armourbane CCW.
I dunno, disembark your Scytheguard right next to the Knight, and it'll have to run if it doesn't want fairly reliably charged the next turn. It can be pulled off.
changemod wrote: Lychguard would obliterate a superheavy vehicle. You just need to catch it.
Since SH move 12" that is kind of the rub. The bargeLord is solid against SH that don't have D or armourbane CCW.
I dunno, disembark your Scytheguard right next to the Knight, and it'll have to run if it doesn't want fairly reliably charged the next turn. It can be pulled off.
changemod wrote: Lychguard would obliterate a superheavy vehicle. You just need to catch it.
Since SH move 12" that is kind of the rub. The bargeLord is solid against SH that don't have D or armourbane CCW.
I dunno, disembark your Scytheguard right next to the Knight, and it'll have to run if it doesn't want fairly reliably charged the next turn. It can be pulled off.
Probably arcanthrites are the best against IK.
I'll be interested if whenever Forge World get around to updating Necrons... 2017 I guess? If they add more formations given the established pattern now.
After all, the Decurion is structured to allow every unit in the conventional codex.
Actually I just emailed them yesterday to ask when/if they had any plans to update IA 12 in light of the new codex and the resulting inconsistencies, as well as asking for clarification on a few inconsistencies. I'll let you guys know what they say. Hardly a FAQ no matter what; however it's good enough for my gaming group, and they do give actual rules answers. For example, when I emailed them asking how Move Through Cover works for GMC in light of the update for Super Heavy Walkers, they told me to roll 3d6, discard the lowest and take the sum. A little wonky, but at least it could theoretically get to 12.
Hollismason wrote: Page 51 Night Scythe , Access Points, 1 ( the base of the model)
1. ) The FAQ was posted nine months ago. Its a 7th edition FAQ for the previous codex. 2. ) The reason you couldn't (and still can't) re-embark on a Night Scythe had nothing to do with Access Points.
The issue isn't that zooming Night Scythes don't have an access point. They do.
The issue is that "unless otherwise stated, models cannot embark upon, or voluntarily disembark from, a Zooming flyer."
Invasion Beam grants the "otherwise stated" permission to disembark. Ever since the 6th edition FAQ was replaced, we've lost permission to embark while the Night Scythe is zooming (ie, once it comes in from reserves).
Kangodo wrote: The Judicator Battalion seems to get better and better as AA.
I've read the tactic about Stalkers with Heat Rays, which seems to put out a lot of damage.
But how about the two Night Scythes you can add as DT?
If we ignore the entire "Can they carry Praetorians"-discussion they still have a Tesla Destructor which, because of Target Designated, can re-roll armour penetration rolls.
I really like the Formation because it's one Formation that handles our two weaknesses in the Reclamation-Legion: Flyers and Sv2+
I am quoting this again because it's that good of a suggestion.
2 Praetorians w/ Particle Casters w/ 2 Night Scythes , possibly 2 Triarchs is a hefty price but when you consider it's 2 Really great CC squads, 2 Really Great Anti Tank units possibly, 2 Really great Flyer Killers.
Also, there's nothing that says that the Nightscythes can't possibly come on board and pick a unit up. Like I don't know the squads from the Reclamation legion.
Judicator Battalion x 2
5 Praetorians 1 Nightscythe
5 Praetorians
1 Triach Stalker
Total : 1070
1549 .. that actually not a bad list you've got 20 Fearless models that can carry ST6 shooting weapons. 4 ST8 AP2 shots, a good number of Gauss , CC , and with extra points just purchase a bunch of Tomb Blades..
I'm liking the looks of that! And it still gives you enough points to play around with.
I'm curious though; he mentions reading about a stalker tactic with the heat ray to put out lots of damage... what exactly is the tactic being referred to?
I think it's just that the Heat Ray is pretty boss at shooting out 2 ST8 AP2 shots, and then rerolling wounds and to hits. It basically Twin Links the heat rays. A more realistic version of that army that doesn't involve you know 20 Praetorians could be
Normal Cad
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb, Phase shifter
Elites
15 Flayed Ones
Troops
5 Immortals
5 Immortals
Fast Attack
6 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
3 Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscopes
H. Support
2 H. Destroyers
Judicator Battalion
7 Praetorians w/ Particle Whips w/ Night Scythe
7 Praetorians w/ Particle Whips
2 Triarch Stalkers
Aegis Defense Line w/ Quad Gun
1 Flyer that gets to reroll to hits and to wounds and armour penetration then a Quad gun that ignores cover saves. That should do it for flying defense.
Hollismason wrote: You'd have to take the Decurion formation to do that all Obelisk army but just going to say 3 Obelisk put out 45 Tesla Shots a turn which is insane.
Decurion doesn't unlock the formations. They can be taken just like any other formation in the game.
Hollismason wrote: You'd have to take the Decurion formation to do that all Obelisk army but just going to say 3 Obelisk put out 45 Tesla Shots a turn which is insane.
Decurion doesn't unlock the formations. They can be taken just like any other formation in the game.
Yes and no. You can take a single formation, but he was advocating like 3 obelisks, which you would need the Decurion for. Normal CAD gives you 1 LOW slot and then you can have 1 formation, but beyond the 2 Obelisks under the standard 2 source format, you need the Decurion since the formation only has a single Obelisk as an option
Hollismason wrote: You'd have to take the Decurion formation to do that all Obelisk army but just going to say 3 Obelisk put out 45 Tesla Shots a turn which is insane.
Decurion doesn't unlock the formations. They can be taken just like any other formation in the game.
Yes and no. You can take a single formation, but he was advocating like 3 obelisks, which you would need the Decurion for. Normal CAD gives you 1 LOW slot and then you can have 1 formation, but beyond the 2 Obelisks under the standard 2 source format, you need the Decurion since the formation only has a single Obelisk as an option
There's no limit to the number of supporting formations in a CAD. Its not like LoW and fortifications restrictions.
So based on points the decurion is limited to only a few detachments of use. I'm focusing on the judicator, destroyer cult, and canoptek. In no real scenario can I fit more than two with the reclamation legion. So my list building is essentially permeatations of those.
My question then is which two would be best in the decurion? I'm liking judicator with destroyer cult but conoptek with destroyer cult seems great too. Thoughts?
So over in the wraiths are bad thread I was informed that a 3++/4++ is statistically identical to a 2+ armour save. Made me think what happens if you put Orikan in a unit of board and sword Praetorians?
Does that mean in effect the Praetorians will have a 2++ armour save (3++ re-rolling ones) followed by a 4++ ?
Don's suppose anyone knows what % of wounds saved that would be? my (bad) maths tells me they end up being an 85.5% chance to save every wound compared to a 2+ armour save of 83.3%?
Also.. functionally it would be significantly better than a standard 2+ save considering you get it with AP2?
buddha wrote: So based on points the decurion is limited to only a few detachments of use. I'm focusing on the judicator, destroyer cult, and canoptek. In no real scenario can I fit more than two with the reclamation legion. So my list building is essentially permeatations of those.
My question then is which two would be best in the decurion? I'm liking judicator with destroyer cult but conoptek with destroyer cult seems great too. Thoughts?
It's possible to fit all three in 1850 or higher. Depends how many points your playing.
Judicator Minimum - 405
Destroyer Minimum - 470
Wraith Minimum - 230
Reclamation Minimum - 479
Total : 1584
If you were playing 2k it would be a almost easy thing to do.
bodazoka wrote: So over in the wraiths are bad thread I was informed that a 3++/4++ is statistically identical to a 2+ armour save. Made me think what happens if you put Orikan in a unit of board and sword Praetorians?
Does that mean in effect the Praetorians will have a 2++ armour save (3++ re-rolling ones) followed by a 4++ ?
Don's suppose anyone knows what % of wounds saved that would be? my (bad) maths tells me they end up being an 85.5% chance to save every wound compared to a 2+ armour save of 83.3%?
Also.. functionally it would be significantly better than a standard 2+ save considering you get it with AP2?
Yes, Lychguard with Dispersion shields take 1 unsaved wound out of 6, same as a 2+ save would give. (83.3...% saved)
With Orikan, you're going to take 1 unsaved wound out of 18. (94.4....% saved) [corrected]
It has serious problems, mainly that it is slow as molasses, you almost have to take either a Night Scythe to transport them or a Deep Striking Monolith.
Having fought that unit personally, I just threw 6 wraiths at it, tying it up all game, then killed the rest of his army.
6 wraiths is 240pts, that unit is considerably more expensive. I was able to use my numerical advantage elsewhere to capture various objectives and win the game 9-3.
Sure you could put it in a night scythe, but even then they'll only move 6" per turn and can't assault when they disembark.
Zandy
Orikan
3 Lord + WS OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Nightmare Shrod
OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Solar Staff
Cryptek + Chrono + Veil
7 x Warscythe LG
Night Scythe
1220...lol
A little pricey, yeah, but it's nearly indestructible, can be placed anywhere, twice, and throws out 21 Staff of Light shots and 38 Warscythe (+ Orikan) on the charge. Plenty of slots for extra Res Orbs, if you are feeling worried. 28 T5 wounds, 9 of which have IWND, 2+/4++ rerollable 1 saves (well, 3 of them are just 3+ AS).
Not quite the shenanigans of the old RC, with all the MSS and what not, but you'll deal plenty of death in this setup. You can also afford to slot some of those SoLs with flamers, if you think you will need them.
Wraiths or Praetorians are a better add to a deathstar because the movement allows them to sling shot the previous characters into close combat and they give the whole thing fearless.
Zandy
Orikan
3 Lord + WS OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Nightmare Shrod
OLord + WS + RO + Phylacter + PS + Solar Staff
Cryptek + Chrono + Veil
7 x Warscythe LG
Night Scythe
1220...lol
A little pricey, yeah, but it's nearly indestructible, can be placed anywhere, twice, and throws out 21 Staff of Light shots and 38 Warscythe (+ Orikan) on the charge. Plenty of slots for extra Res Orbs, if you are feeling worried. 28 T5 wounds, 9 of which have IWND, 2+/4++ rerollable 1 saves (well, 3 of them are just 3+ AS).
Not quite the shenanigans of the old RC, with all the MSS and what not, but you'll deal plenty of death in this setup. You can also afford to slot some of those SoLs with flamers, if you think you will need them.
That's a bad idea because the opponent wins by just running away from it and killing everything else. I like the smaller Orikan + RC in a GA packing flamers that clocks in at 480 points allowing you to have other big threats running around.
Hollismason wrote: It has serious problems, mainly that it is slow as molasses, you almost have to take either a Night Scythe to transport them or a Deep Striking Monolith.
So just take a night scythe?
night scythes are still awesome by them selves.. and are very much required. You could also just add a Cryptek in there and give him the Veil of Darkness.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Dr. Delorean wrote: Having fought that unit personally, I just threw 6 wraiths at it, tying it up all game, then killed the rest of his army.
6 wraiths is 240pts, that unit is considerably more expensive. I was able to use my numerical advantage elsewhere to capture various objectives and win the game 9-3.
Sure you could put it in a night scythe, but even then they'll only move 6" per turn and can't assault when they disembark.
To be fair the night scythe will disembark them into the enemy lines turn 2, everything should then be in charge range turn 3 (if you dont get charged first) if you put the Cryptek in there with the VoD you could be in there lines on turn 1. If your worried about points just take the 5 + Orikan (245 points)
That unit will absolutely murder marines.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Wraiths or Praetorians are a better add to a deathstar because the movement allows them to sling shot the previous characters into close combat and they give the whole thing fearless.
Wraith's wont get the benefit from Orikan as they don't have RP but the maths is the same with Praetorians (except they hit harder with the AP2 and shooting attack) the only drama is Praetorians don't get the invul save so AP3 weapons are a problem.
Hello
You said 21 light staff shots i don't see how you do this so you loose the light staff for the scythes,
Then a little tactic question about : Lychguard,
Most say take Lychguard with shield or either scyths, why don't if you have a unit of five take 2 shields and 3 scythes so the first could take damage and the other kill isn't that possible?
That's a bad idea because the opponent wins by just running away from it and killing everything else. I like the smaller Orikan + RC in a GA packing flamers that clocks in at 480 points allowing you to have other big threats running around.
Yeah, fair point.
Thought about swapping the LG for Immortals. Gives the dudes some more range, you could effectively keep T5 if you wanted too, and save a bit in the process. So... just throwing points around, you could swap the non Nightmare Shroud Olord with Imo, and swap down to Immortals. Keep the Solar Staff and Res Orb on a different Lord.That gives you three straight up 2+/4++ guys with reroll 1 to saves an RP 4+ with rerolls. With three guys you could spread them out to cover most of the front arcs. Nasty nasty nasty.
Topped off with 7 Gauss Immortals you end up with 1189, I think.
Then you go heavy MSU with the rest of your fixens. 6 x Heavy Destroyers. Groups of 10, 10, and 7 Flayed Ones, and your other requisite Immortal squad bring you to 1925. So, despite the deathstar you still end up with 12 units.
The death star itself trades a bunch of WS attacks for some ranged S5 Gauss. You still have 13 WS attacks on the charge, but now you also have a 12 inch blast of 14 S5 AP4 Gauss 6 BS 5 S 6 AP 3 Blind/2 and 18 S5 AP3 shots. pewpewpew.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Fun fact. If a Necron Overlor is protected with the combination of a 2+ Armor Save, is in a unit with Orikan, and uses both a Solar Staff and Res Orb, it takes 2600 Bolter Shots, on average, to wound him.
I still can't decide if I should spend points to give my single group of 3 Tomb Blades Shield Vanes and Nebuloscope. Is worth the extra points doing that?
Haven't made any full lists, just building them right now. I plan on using a mix fo Immortals and Warrior in a decurion, and Wraiths (possibly the formation).
taetrius67 wrote: Then a little tactic question about : Lychguard,
Most say take Lychguard with shield or either scyths, why don't if you have a unit of five take 2 shields and 3 scythes so the first could take damage and the other kill isn't that possible?
Because the entire unit needs to have the same weapons.
The more I think about it, the more Night Scythe deployment seems risky.
Turn three arrival on average, right? But you equally risk turn four deployment to turn two, and have to loiter for a turn.
A turn 5 assault is really bad, and 4 isn't much better. You're pretty much hinging on turn 2 arrival to get any benefit out of it.
The only absolute benefit is a Solar Pulse keeping you from attracting all the fire on the arrival turn and undoing the benefit of not getting shot up whilst running up the board.
With Shieldguard at any rate, getting shot up whilst you have a 4+++ reanimation on the go is a minor victory just for wasting so much enemy ammo.
changemod wrote: The more I think about it, the more Night Scythe deployment seems risky.
Turn three arrival on average, right? But you equally risk turn four deployment to turn two, and have to loiter for a turn.
A turn 5 assault is really bad, and 4 isn't much better. You're pretty much hinging on turn 2 arrival to get any benefit out of it.
The only absolute benefit is a Solar Pulse keeping you from attracting all the fire on the arrival turn and undoing the benefit of not getting shot up whilst running up the board.
With Shieldguard at any rate, getting shot up whilst you have a 4+++ reanimation on the go is a minor victory just for wasting so much enemy ammo.
Well if one wants to make a deathstar that arrives from reserve work, reserve manipulation is crucial.
3 Tomb Blades sitting behind an ADL with a quadgun has already been proposed as decent AA, so why not add a comms relay to that if you want to run a ShieldGuard star?
Probably not the best thing 'Crons can do, but I do love me a CC deathstar.
All the deathstar talk does make me wonder though: In a codex with so many independently solid options, why try to run a deathstar at all? The weaknesses of deathstars are being exploited further and further in 7th edition, and rarely do you see them win tournaments anymore. I know its fun exercise, but it seems like 'Crons have so many better ways to go about list building.
Noctem wrote: I still can't decide if I should spend points to give my single group of 3 Tomb Blades Shield Vanes and Nebuloscope. Is worth the extra points doing that?
Haven't made any full lists, just building them right now. I plan on using a mix fo Immortals and Warrior in a decurion, and Wraiths (possibly the formation).
Reclamation Legion: Zahndrekh
5 Immortals in Night Scythe
10 Warriors in Ghost Ark
20 Warriors on foot (+Zandrekh, Veil Cryptek)
5 Tomb Blades + all the upgrades
5 Lychguard + Shields (rest of the Royal Court goes here)
Royal Court: Overlord + Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
Orikan
Cryptek + Chronometron, Veil of Darkness
Varguard Obyron
2 Lords + Warscythes
1780pts
Either walk or deepstrike (Veil) the 4+/5++/4+++ blob with Zahndrekh onto an objective in safe midfield, then use Obyron's Ghost Mantle to teleport the Lychguard Deathstar anywhere within 12" of Zahndrekh without scatter, into charge range of the main enemy threat: 3+/3++/4+++ (reroll 1s, 1 res orb, jinx in challenges between Overlord's 4++ and Obyron's 2+ save) with 10 WS attacks + Orikan empowered.
I wouldn't call 5 Shieldguard with Orikan a Deathstar, honestly. It's cheaper than a Terminator Squad with character.
It's a very solid base to build into a Deathstar of course.
Orikan is swiftly becoming pretty standard in my lists though. Even just in 5 immortals in a small points game you have a more durable unit that can drop a mini C'tan on your foes by the endgame.
What do people think of the C'Tan formation in exterminatus, also the destroyer cult. I have tried a few times and they always seem to work wonders for me.
oz of the north wrote: What do people think of the C'Tan formation in exterminatus, also the destroyer cult. I have tried a few times and they always seem to work wonders for me.
How have they worked for others.
I don't rate C'Tan, but T8 FnP could be promising. I can't see myself taking that formation.
Destroyer Cult works well with a Stalker, essentially giving you BS5 with re-rolls to hit and wound
Someone proposed an interesting combo a few pages back for that C'tan formation that buffed up a Cryptek pretty substantially. It's probably how I would field them (and I shall, as the Nightbringer is too cool not to field, regardless of how competitive he is)
Clocks in at a ton of points but is stupidly durable, especially with Nightbringer's ability to get a wound back. The one cryptek has a re-rollable 2+ as well as a 4++ re-rolling 1's. Sadly you sacrifice the Solar Staff to get the Veil, but turn one you are in their backfield begging to be shot at. And if they don't, well....
The only real downside is that you suffer from lack of mobility after the turn 1 deep strike; however that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that you can choose where you go and therefore what target you will threaten (barring horrendous scatter)
Clearly not top-tier tournament worthy, but sounds like a fun way to play a beer and pretzels game
I know nothing about nids apart from a game I saw once, a turkey shoot between well prepared guard and a poor nid battle plan.
