Thoughts on how to run the monolith without the obliesk?
I have the monolith and I love the model as the center piece of my army. But it's a gigantic turd in the game. It can't deepstrike safely, has a short range reasonably powerful gun, 4 pea-shooters that can't hit gak and really only 2 can really ever see anything, and there is no table in existence that you can't see it from every angle on the table.
The only use that I am seeing is using it as a LOS Blocking terrain for the destroyer cult to JSJ from behind.
Punisher wrote: Thoughts on how to run the monolith without the obliesk?
I have the monolith and I love the model as the center piece of my army. But it's a gigantic turd in the game. It can't deepstrike safely, has a short range reasonably powerful gun, 4 pea-shooters that can't hit gak and really only 2 can really ever see anything, and there is no table in existence that you can't see it from every angle on the table.
The only use that I am seeing is using it as a LOS Blocking terrain for the destroyer cult to JSJ from behind.
I would use it with the Obelisk for 2nd turn deep strike Praetorian assault.
Praetorians dont need the mono but lytch gaurd do as there an assault unit with no transport bar a flyer, where as praets are jump so fast enough on there own.
The mon can be used as a trap for podded stern gaurd/melta squads set it up front and center then when the pod turns up counter strike with deathmarks. I've used this and it works then if you survive any shots float up field and pop a unit from the back field out for rapid range or objective grabs or lytch to counter there second wave. I dont plan on the guns doing much but thats not what i use it for. It can also act as cover for a c'tan or destroyers. So the mono to me is a tactical unit and the occasional shot not the other way around.
Alcibiades wrote: It's a land raider with living metal and a short-range battle cannon, and costs less points.
But, it does not have assault, so anything coming from eternity gate cannot assault, also the land raider has PoTMS, which is great and multiple weapons that can chew through armor, where the monolith has 1 gun that can kill MEQ and then every other gun snap fires.
Alcibiades wrote: It's a land raider with living metal and a short-range battle cannon, and costs less points.
A land raider is an assault transport, if your using it otherwise your using it wrong. The ability to get in range and then assault out of it intact is why the land raider fills it's niche. You don't take a land raider because it has 2 TL lascannons. The monolith on the other hand has a battle cannon, is slower than molasses and pays to "deepstrike". The only benefit of it is you can pull infantry back through it's portal, but your infantry can probably out pace it anyway.
Anyway when was the last time you fought an army that had difficulty taking out a AV14 vehicle; melta works wonders, lance does the trick, grav is broken against it, necrons can kill it with anything, railguns ruin it. It can soak up lots of fire power but for the same cost you could get about 2 ghost arks that soak up almost as much firepower and block almost as much LOS and have other benefits including potentially objective secured.
Something you notice instantly when you field a proper 200+ point tank, which honestly is mostly a Forge World niche, is just how much a Land Raider is paying out the ears for that transport capacity and assault rule.
Take the Tesseract Ark for example: Awesomely killy unit with an invulnerable save to boot for the price a Land Raider spends to get two Lascannons and a heavy Bolter.
luke1705 wrote: Someone proposed an interesting combo a few pages back for that C'tan formation that buffed up a Cryptek pretty substantially. It's probably how I would field them (and I shall, as the Nightbringer is too cool not to field, regardless of how competitive he is)
Clocks in at a ton of points but is stupidly durable, especially with Nightbringer's ability to get a wound back. The one cryptek has a re-rollable 2+ as well as a 4++ re-rolling 1's. Sadly you sacrifice the Solar Staff to get the Veil, but turn one you are in their backfield begging to be shot at. And if they don't, well....
The only real downside is that you suffer from lack of mobility after the turn 1 deep strike; however that is somewhat mitigated by the fact that you can choose where you go and therefore what target you will threaten (barring horrendous scatter)
Clearly not top-tier tournament worthy, but sounds like a fun way to play a beer and pretzels game
I think the Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Solar Thermasite and Chronometron are really expensive and would probably drop them. With a tanking Nightbringer with T8, getting wounds back and a 4++ with a FNP I don't think you need even more durability. Though the Nightmare Shroud's Ld-test could work great if you take the Deceiver.
My build is: Nightbringer Cryptek: God Shackle + Veil of Darkness Cryptek: Solar Staff (This staff, in my opinion, gives the same extra durability as your package combined Total: Around 80% of the points you spent on the combination.
The Conclave is a big tough distraction that puts out a lot of hurt while you bring the rest of your army closer. We probably want to keep it as cheap as possible, especially since it are only three models with a total of six attacks.
changemod wrote: Something you notice instantly when you field a proper 200+ point tank, which honestly is mostly a Forge World niche, is just how much a Land Raider is paying out the ears for that transport capacity and assault rule.
Take the Tesseract Ark for example: Awesomely killy unit with an invulnerable save to boot for the price a Land Raider spends to get two Lascannons and a heavy Bolter.
Let's not forget that the awesome Ark is now AV13 unless you have a friendly opponent
While talking about the Monolith: Let's not forget it is now S5AP4 instead of S4AP5. I think that's quite an upgrade.
Str5 that averages 0.5 hits is a negligible upgrade from str4 that gets 0.5 hits. It did nothing before it does nothing now. They exist to look cool on the model.
Yeah that's probably the best I've seen with the God Shackle, Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light combo excepting one thing.
It may be a YMDC question, but Mephrit as far as I can find are not actually given permission to take those formations and in the BRB formations are from the basic Codex always unless specified.
The only way to get the formation is to go with a normal Necron Faction, which would mean you don't have access to the God Shackle because your not Mephrit.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah that's probably the best I've seen with the God Shackle, Veil of Darkness, Staff of Light combo excepting one thing.
It may be a YMDC question, but Mephrit as far as I can find are not actually given permission to take those formations and in the BRB formations are from the basic Codex always unless specified.
The only way to get the formation is to go with a normal Necron Faction, which would mean you don't have access to the God Shackle because your not Mephrit.
Read Exterminatus, Forces of the Mephrit Dynasty. "Certain units chosen from the Mephrit Dynasty Detachment and Formations can also make use of the Relics and Warlord Traits listed below."
Eh I made a YMDC, the quick version of it though is that there's no such thing a Mephrit Formation, just formations in the Exterminatus. The formations themselves tell you what faction their from which is kind of funny and a semantic argument.
I understand your point of view (and this would be far from the first time that GW would have written redundant/meaningless phrases in teir rules) however I think that if anything, you would be able to take the Mephrit relics with ALL formations, not just those listed in the book. Because there can never be a Mephrit formation. Even if I take a Judicator battalion, I can take that with a Leviathan primary. Does that mean that it is a Leviathan Judicator Battalion? Of course not. Formations are like an allied detachment - they are their own.
To me, the most conservative interpretation is that you can only use Mephrit relics with Exterminatus formations; however I think that RAW any Necron formations may be fine to take Mephrit relics. That, to me, however does have a place in YMDC and I wouldn't use that personally without a general consensus
Yeah it's not that strong of a argument. Do people realize that it's better to put the wounds on a Cryptek in the C'Tan formation?
They can get a better save..
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
Cryptek w/ Phase Shifter, The Solar Staff, Thermite ( why the hell not)
Cryptek w/ Veil of Darkness, God Shackle
That's a very beefy shooty unit
3 ST6 AP AP3, BLind
3 ST5 AP 2
Night Bringers ability
C'Tans Abilities
4+, 4+ T8 , Reroll Failed Saves of 1.
It's expensive but not many things are going to stand up against it.
I'm not sure what the math is on a 4+ , 4++ reroll 1s is it's better than the 4+ 5+ the C'Tan recieves though althoug he can regain wounds.
Remember that the tank Cryptek has a re-rollable 2+ in addition to his 4+ RP. All at t8. I would want to take a single wound on the C'tan first for sure. Regen it back later
The one list I would hands down consider the Mono in is a Destroyer Heavy list. The Battle Cannon fills in a gap in their firepower, and the LOS blocking ability combined with JSJ is pretty damn solid. If you are going into a tournament that you know lacks in LOS blocking terrain, there's worse things to have in your arsenal then a Mono.
Also, a key thing about the Mono that many people forget is it adds to your ability to control objectives late game. It's slow, but it will get where it needs to go in 5 turns.
The DS ability is a bit of a red herring. It was great 2 editions ago, it should only be used in extreme, going second against a heavy drop melta list, type of scenario. Its a back up if you know the enemy can fry you on the alpha. Start her off on the board on the regular and I think you'll be a bit more appreciative on the old block.
Punisher wrote:Thoughts on how to run the monolith without the obliesk?
I have the monolith and I love the model as the center piece of my army. But it's a gigantic turd in the game. It can't deepstrike safely, has a short range reasonably powerful gun, 4 pea-shooters that can't hit gak and really only 2 can really ever see anything, and there is no table in existence that you can't see it from every angle on the table.
The only use that I am seeing is using it as a LOS Blocking terrain for the destroyer cult to JSJ from behind.
Best use I've seen for it so far is to take the Mephrit Resurgence Decurion, which everyone forgets about:
Spoiler:
Monolith gets to bring back d6 Warriors or d3 Immortals per turn. Giving it Ghost Ark repair on steroids makes it a bit more worthwhile. Group it with an actual Ghost Ark for a stupidly durable gunline.
luke1705 wrote:Yes you have to sacrifice the solar staff to get it but I think it's worth complete immunity to all non AP 2 (more or less since they are t8)
Eh... I was the one who originally posted the "super tank Cryptek" but I dunno now. 2+ is great against small arms fire, but a lot of things that can actually hurt T8 are AP2. Lascannons, Meltas, Plasma, etc, all don't care about 2+.
Punisher wrote:Thoughts on how to run the monolith without the obliesk?
I have the monolith and I love the model as the center piece of my army. But it's a gigantic turd in the game. It can't deepstrike safely, has a short range reasonably powerful gun, 4 pea-shooters that can't hit gak and really only 2 can really ever see anything, and there is no table in existence that you can't see it from every angle on the table.
The only use that I am seeing is using it as a LOS Blocking terrain for the destroyer cult to JSJ from behind.
Best use I've seen for it so far is to take the Mephrit Resurgence Decurion, which everyone forgets about:
Spoiler:
Monolith gets to bring back d6 Warriors or d3 Immortals per turn. Giving it Ghost Ark repair on steroids makes it a bit more worthwhile. Group it with an actual Ghost Ark for a stupidly durable gunline.
luke1705 wrote:Yes you have to sacrifice the solar staff to get it but I think it's worth complete immunity to all non AP 2 (more or less since they are t8)
Eh... I was the one who originally posted the "super tank Cryptek" but I dunno now. 2+ is great against small arms fire, but a lot of things that can actually hurt T8 are AP2. Lascannons, Meltas, Plasma, etc, all don't care about 2+.
thermasite is great because it lets you re-roll 1s, making your 4++ an effective 3.5++
Yeah that's not a terrible use, but also that's like a minimum 1000 point formation that's reliant on the enemy not just killing it then killing your warriors.
It's not terrible, it's just not all that either.
1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
1 Squad of 10 Immortals
1 Squad of 10 Immortals
1 Monolith
= 1010
Minimum Cost : 630
It'd be a amazing formaton if it didn't include the Immortals.
Punisher wrote:Thoughts on how to run the monolith without the obliesk?
I have the monolith and I love the model as the center piece of my army. But it's a gigantic turd in the game. It can't deepstrike safely, has a short range reasonably powerful gun, 4 pea-shooters that can't hit gak and really only 2 can really ever see anything, and there is no table in existence that you can't see it from every angle on the table.
The only use that I am seeing is using it as a LOS Blocking terrain for the destroyer cult to JSJ from behind.
Best use I've seen for it so far is to take the Mephrit Resurgence Decurion, which everyone forgets about:
Spoiler:
Monolith gets to bring back d6 Warriors or d3 Immortals per turn. Giving it Ghost Ark repair on steroids makes it a bit more worthwhile. Group it with an actual Ghost Ark for a stupidly durable gunline.
luke1705 wrote:Yes you have to sacrifice the solar staff to get it but I think it's worth complete immunity to all non AP 2 (more or less since they are t8)
Eh... I was the one who originally posted the "super tank Cryptek" but I dunno now. 2+ is great against small arms fire, but a lot of things that can actually hurt T8 are AP2. Lascannons, Meltas, Plasma, etc, all don't care about 2+.
thermasite is great because it lets you re-roll 1s, making your 4++ an effective 3.5++
Sure, that's great, but I'm talking about the Nightmare Shroud. Paying for 2+ feels silly with the amount of Heavy/Special weapons with AP2 pointed at you.
Granted, it helps against Krak missiles, things like Heavy Bolters or Pulse Rifles, etc, but still.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah that's not a terrible use, but also that's like a minimum 1000 point formation that's reliant on the enemy not just killing it then killing your warriors.
It's not terrible, it's just not all that either.
1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
1 Squad of 10 Immortals
1 Squad of 10 Immortals
1 Monolith
= 1010
Minimum Cost : 630
It'd be a amazing formaton if it didn't include the Immortals.
You wouldn't have to max out the immortals.
It's intriguing, though as it is one way of actually repairing Immortals.
The thing I don't like about it, though, is they all lose Ob Sec. Would be much more intriguing IMHO if they kept it some how.
It may very well be overkill, and it's certainly cheaper to grab just the solar staff. But just a turn of invulnerability is exactly that - they ignore you and try to run away. Maybe it works maybe it doesn't, but once you're out of your first combat (or even in it) you lose that buff.
The biggest draw for me isn't actually in the low AP protection. It's against volume of fire. Poison is still a thing, and str 5, 6, and 7 can still wound t8. Ever face off against tau? Flyrants? Wave serpents? It's not efficient but the shroud means that they can just forget about shooting at the unit. All game long. Is it going to win its points back? Probably not, but it is what Swarmlord wishes he was - a space of area denial that really just cannot be removed via shooting, and is no slouch in CC either. You don't see that all that often any more
Yeah losing Obsec kind of sucks , if they wanted to make the Monolith Worth something they'd have just said can transport 50 models , give restrictions, but allow multiple squads.
Then give it the Night Scythe rules.
Oh and make it immune to melta, and all other weapons like that, then make it also a assault platform.
It's just big giant turd on the battlefield as it is just waiting to give up points, or deep strike and destroy itself.
Sure, that's great, but I'm talking about the Nightmare Shroud. Paying for 2+ feels silly with the amount of Heavy/Special weapons with AP2 pointed at you.
Granted, it helps against Krak missiles, things like Heavy Bolters or Pulse Rifles, etc, but still.
What it comes down to me is do you want the Solar Staff or the Shroud?
To me it's Staff hands down every day. It's much, much cheaper then the Shroud+Thermasite combo, and it's a sure thing on the turn you deep strike in. Aint no one who is going to want to shoot at a T8 model with only snap shots.
My favorite Conclave base at the moment is :
Night Bringer
Cryptek + Veil
Cryptek + Solar Staff (God Schackle, although I would likely take this on a third guy)
420 points. From there, I could here arguments for a Chrono (to ++ up the Cryptek wounds), or a Res Orb, also to protect the Cryptek wounds.
8 T8 4+ 5+ FNP wounds. Drops a super psychic shriek 3 S5 ap3, 3 S6 ap3, and one random crazy pants power on the drop.
I think it would be a pretty reasonable unit, honestly. Drops in, melts one unit, saved for a turn with the Solar Staff, melts another unit and starts threatening assault. Maybe in a heavy Flayed One army? So then big poppy is there to bale out any FOs that get stuck in with something too fierce, like a WK.
No way to get the Res orb in the unit even with the super orb, Crypteks can't take them unfortunately.I think people are missing out on how powerful the Res Orb is now.
You just cast Fortune on your models for 25 points that can't be stopped.
That's pretty insanely good. The fact that D- Lords can take the super sayan one and hop in a unit of Flayed Ones, then take another one is also crazy.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah that's not a terrible use, but also that's like a minimum 1000 point formation that's reliant on the enemy not just killing it then killing your warriors.
It's not terrible, it's just not all that either.
1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
1 Squad of Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
1 Squad of 10 Immortals
1 Squad of 10 Immortals
1 Monolith
= 1010
Minimum Cost : 630
It'd be a amazing formaton if it didn't include the Immortals.
You wouldn't have to max out the immortals.
It's intriguing, though as it is one way of actually repairing Immortals.
The thing I don't like about it, though, is they all lose Ob Sec. Would be much more intriguing IMHO if they kept it some how.
The Immortals should just be min'd out and you really only need 1 Ghost Ark. I'd rather do something like:
865 points. Could cut the Warriors down to 15, but hey, go big or go home. Take Szeras or a general Cryptek from a CAD and throw him him with the Blob to keep them safe, the Immortals are just moving around to be objective grabbers. You can bump up the Immortals a bit, but if I'm taking a CAD with this I'll be taking 2 more min squads of 5 Immortals so keeping them small is fine overall.
A 20 man Warriors blob with 4+, possibly 5++ against shooting, 4+++, and gaining d3+d6 Warriors back a turn is pretty unkillable.
Maybe I'll use this bad boy in a list and see what happens.
865 points. Could cut the Warriors down to 15, but hey, go big or go home. Take Szeras or a general Cryptek from a CAD and throw him him with the Blob to keep them safe, the Immortals are just moving around to be objective grabbers. You can bump up the Immortals a bit, but if I'm taking a CAD with this I'll be taking 2 more min squads of 5 Immortals so keeping them small is fine overall.
A 20 man Warriors blob with 4+, possibly 5++ against shooting, 4+++, and gaining d3+d6 Warriors back a turn is pretty unkillable.
Maybe I'll use this bad boy in a list and see what happens.
Yep, agreed.
Automatically Appended Next Post: So, throwing around some numbers on a full Army with the Conclave ::
Spoiler:
Standard CAD ::
HQ (290)
Imothek
Cryptek + Chrono + God Schackle
Elite (510)
10 x Flayed Ones
10 x Flayed Ones
2 x Triarch Stalkers
Troops (470)
5 x Gauss Immortals
5 x Gauss Immortals
10 x Gauss Immortals
+ Night Scythe
FA (150)
1 x HD 1 x HD 1 x HD
HS (150)
1 x HD 1 x HD 1 x HD
Conclave of the Burning One (410)
Night Bringer
Cryptek + Veil
Cryptek + Solar Staff (God Schackle, although I would likely take this on a third guy)
1980?
Not sure what to do with the rest of the points. Seems like between the Conclave and 2 Imo guided 10 x FOs you could cause some havoc. The Stalkers and HDs should keep the meaty bits nice and outside their vehicles for you.
Hollismason wrote: Crypteks can take Technoarcana they are restricted though on taking the Res Orb, it's only for the terrible Lord.
Who has no purpose now basically.
Well, they can potentially be both a Warscythe and a Staff of Light addition to a unit now, right? As well as being your one access to a Res Orb, other then Olords.
Interesting, though.
Automatically Appended Next Post: What Relics are the Crypteks restricted from taking, then?
Have people considered this Zarathusa's Royal Decurion?
It's actually pretty interesting because of this:
Crusader, Counter-attack, Fearless, Monster Hunters. The effects last until the start of your next turn. You cannot use this special rule if the Necron Overlord from this Formation has been removed as a casualty.
That's not terrible at all plus the units are not like terrible
1 Necron Overlord
1 unit of Immortals
2 units of Necron Warriors
1 Ghost Ark
1 Doom Scythe
1 unit of Triarch Praetorians
1 Triarch Stalker
1 unit of Deathmarks
2 units of Canoptek Wraiths Wraiths w/ Counter attack or Monster Hunter is pretty interesting.
Hrmmm
1295 mimum cost by my count which is enough to buff it up to 1800 pretty easily, plus you can still take a Nightscythe for the Immortals, etc..
Plus, you can take the super formation and give the conclave and he mono formation the free love as well, although I don't even think you can do that under 2.5k now.
I'll have to play around with that. Thanks for bringing it back into the mix, Hollisman.
It's a incredibly balanced list really, it'd have been nice to have a improvement with the Triarch but honestly you got 3 Assault units, 1 Interceptor unit, A Flyer.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From what I've seen in battlereports, the Decurion detachment is extremely resilient but not very killy. Which would be great if you could get obj. secured units but alas you can not.
And I think that's the downfall of the Newcrons, survivable but not killy enough and lack Obj. Secured to take advantage of being survivable. So I think a CAD is the way to go. What CADs can you come up with?
My go at it:
HQ Cryptek w/ chrono
Destroyer Lord w/ PhaseShifter, Phylactery, Warscythe
Troops
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
20x Warrior (cryptek joins these)
Fast Attack
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil (Destroyer Lord joins)
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil
8x Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope
Heavy Support
3x Heavy Destoyers
It has the resilient core of troops with objective secured and as many of the heavy hitters in the codex as I could fit in. A Stalker is a great force multiplier but I don't find them to live long enough to do anything. This is an 1850 list so at 2000 I guess you could add an Stalker easily enough.
tetrisphreak wrote: Debating between building my battleforce with a Ghost Ark, or a Doomsday Ark. Is the Ghost Ark pretty universally considered to be the better build?
Absolutely. The Ghost Ark has been good to useful ever since it came out. The Doomsday Ark is a fun tank but it isn't the workhorse that a Ghost Ark is.
Hollismason wrote:They can't take void reaper and the orb.
Have people considered this Zarathusa's Royal Decurion?
It's decent and the bonuses are nice, but it's not great by any means. 4 Troops choices (counting Ghost Ark as Dedicated in this situation) that don't have ObSec is heavy to pay for what is kinda sorta army wide Orders.
Valek wrote:How do we as Necrons take on a Admantite lance these days? Without haywires it looks like an impossible job to me...
Tesla Destructors still do it well, bring a couple Night Scythes and they should pull a Hull Point or two.
Heavy Destroyers, especially in the Formation, do it just fine. That many Lascannons is nothing to sneeze at.
Wraiths have the capability. It takes a lot of them (9, last calculation I saw), but they're durable enough to weather all but 6s from D weapons and Rending/Entropic can chip away at one. Give them TransBeamers and they have the capability to Pen a Hull Point or two off before charging in, too.
Orikan + Warscythe Lords + Shield Lychguard is something I'm considering. 3++ rerolling 1s will eat quite a number of attacks, and Warscythes can and will run roughshod through any Knight. I want to figure out how to make it work, but it's going to be a lot of points and somewhat unreliable.
On a similar vein, a full Royal Court, with some Phase Shifters, Orikan, and Warscythes isn't as durable (4++ not as good as 3++ obviously), but then they can rock around in a Ghost Ark.
Automatically Appended Next Post: From what I've seen in battlereports, the Decurion detachment is extremely resilient but not very killy. Which would be great if you could get obj. secured units but alas you can not.
And I think that's the downfall of the Newcrons, survivable but not killy enough and lack Obj. Secured to take advantage of being survivable. So I think a CAD is the way to go. What CADs can you come up with?
Same, 4+++ is amazing.... but the limitations are bad. If I'm taking 3+ Troops choices, I want ObSec. I can get 4+++ for my gunline with Szeras.
When it comes to fielding the Decurion or not, I think you have to look at a few things.
The first is really, “How many Necrons am I fielding?” If you are fielding a lot then the Decurion is going to pay for itself very easy. If you plan to field a lot of Canoptek units and/or Vehicles, then you likely want to stay away from the Decurion.
I think the Decurion can pack plenty of punch into it, I think though your options may be more limited on this front. The Decurion isn’t the place for Wraithwing, that’s for sure.
There are other concerns though, such as what if you're fielding a Dynasty that's either a: Dismissive of the prowess of what are effectively lobotomised militia compared to the professional soldiers of the race, b: consider it ethically dubious to hand lobotomised citizens a rifle and use them as cannon fodder, or c: both, and therefore don't use Warriors except in the most dire of emergencies?
Or hey, just don't make much use of Tomb Blades.
It's roughly 1000 points of generic before you can start trying to do anything interesting, is all I'm saying.
It's really about ethics in the Necron Army composition.
I think if you're playing a Tomb Blade heavy army, there's no good reason not to pay for the Decurion, the troop tax is well the Troop tax, but the bonus of 4+ to the Tomb Blades makes it worth it.
Will run you north of 1000 points but still leave room to purchase other items. It's a solid choice to go with one of the other "not wraiths" CC units specifically the Judicator and then just shore up with Flayed Ones for some CC.
People get blinders on when they see the Wraiths and their a amazing unit, but point for point I'd take 660 points of Tomb Blades over Wraiths any day.
Hollismason wrote: It's really about ethics in the Necron Army composition.
Just an example. I don't really think the Decurion hit the sweet spot compromise between formation and force organisation chart dead on, since you want enough flexibility to make your army stand out from the latter.
And the only part causing the problem is the single, large core formation rather than say... Giving you a choice between two core formations.
How I'd do it:
1 Mandatory Command per core, 1+ Core, 1-10 supplementary formations per core.
Royal Court: Overlord, Crypteks, Lords, Lychguard.
And before someone comments "Just take a CAD", this conversation is about reasons to take/not take a Decurion in the first place. I'm just spelling out one of the not take reasons.
So I'm trying to make Orikanstar work. Base of Orikan + 5 Shield Lychguard is 270 points. Durable, 3++ rerolling 1s, 4+++. Good at Assault, 10 AP3 attacks and 2/4 AP2 attacks. Not bad. But we'll want more AP2 if this is going to be a Deathstar, which means Warscythes. Overlords, Lords, and Obyron are our choices. Well, I suppose Anrakyr has one, but he's paying 35 extra points over a normal Overlord for the Immortal boost (situationally useful at best) and Mind in the Machine (again, situational), so pass.
An Overlord with just a Warscythe is 100 points. Lords with just Warscythes are 70. Obyron is 120. This is where it starts to get expensive. Obyron is still pretty great in CC - 2+, WS6, great in challenges, though only W2. Regular Overlords/Lords are good as well, though they could probably stand to pick up Phase Shifters and other goodies. I think Orikan + 2 others is pretty fine, so either an Overlord and a Lord, or two Lords, or an Overlord + Obyron.
Now, we also have to figure out how to get them to where they need to be. They aren't Wraiths, they ain't moving across the board in leaps and bounds. So we have two options.
a) Night Scythe. Not bad, but 130 points now. But with a 36" move -> deploy zone, followed by Run moves, they're basically guaranteed to charge the turn after they arrive. However, there's always Reserve failures, even if you bring someone like Zahndrekh or Imotekh for Reserve Roll boosts.
b) Veil of Darkness/Obyron's Mantle. This is nice in that you can start on the board, jump, and then charge turn 2. The obvious downside is mishaps. You can try a gimmick of Veil'd Zahndrekh -> no-scatter Obyron, but this Deathstar is already expensive enough without needing Zahndrekh and a Veil on top of it. Besides, you still have the chance that Zahndrekh and his squad will just scatter into a bad position as well.
So the two that I'm thinking of at this point are:
Orikan
5 Shieldguard w/ Night Scythe
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb
Lord w/ Warscythe
595 points
Orikan
5 Shieldguard
Overlord w/Warscythe, Res Orb
Obyron
515 points
First is nearly 600 points and has to start in reserve, but the Flyer isn't exactly bad. Second is 80 points less and starts on the board, but is less reliable to get into combat.
What do you think is the way to make this unit work?
Hollismason wrote: It's really about ethics in the Necron Army composition.
I think if you're playing a Tomb Blade heavy army, there's no good reason not to pay for the Decurion, the troop tax is well the Troop tax, but the bonus of 4+ to the Tomb Blades makes it worth it.
Will run you north of 1000 points but still leave room to purchase other items. It's a solid choice to go with one of the other "not wraiths" CC units specifically the Judicator and then just shore up with Flayed Ones for some CC.
People get blinders on when they see the Wraiths and their a amazing unit, but point for point I'd take 660 points of Tomb Blades over Wraiths any day.
I Agree with the Wraith Issue. They are an incredible unit, but I don't think we need to run that anymore to be competitive. The days of 3 abarges, 2 ccbs and 3 units of Wraiths is over.
Tomb Blades have shown so far to be pretty incredible in my experience. They pack a lot of firepower, for very cheap, they are quick, and they are durable in the Decurion.
I'd veil. Deep striking aggressively usually isn't too bad in practice unless you're moving an entire blob or trying to squeeze into a small space near a board edge. Certainly, you can afford to take Dangerous Terrain tests easily enough. If you got for a Cryptek this also has the benefit of giving you 4+++ against instant death if you're not in a Decurion.
If you are in a Decurion, put the Reclamation Legion Overlord in the Deathstar for rerolling ones on reanimation too.
And yeah, I wouldn't even call the base unit a Deathstar any more than I'd call assault terminators with a combat character a Deathstar. It's just good synergy.
From what I've seen in battlereports, the Decurion detachment is extremely resilient but not very killy. Which would be great if you could get obj. secured units but alas you can not.
And I think that's the downfall of the Newcrons, survivable but not killy enough and lack Obj. Secured to take advantage of being survivable. So I think a CAD is the way to go. What CADs can you come up with?
My go at it:
HQ Cryptek w/ chrono
Destroyer Lord w/ PhaseShifter, Phylactery, Warscythe
Troops
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
10x Warrior w/ Ghost Ark
20x Warrior (cryptek joins these)
Fast Attack
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil (Destroyer Lord joins)
6x Wraiths w/ Whip Coil
8x Tomb Blades w/ Shield Vanes, Nebuloscope
Heavy Support
3x Heavy Destoyers
It has the resilient core of troops with objective secured and as many of the heavy hitters in the codex as I could fit in. A Stalker is a great force multiplier but I don't find them to live long enough to do anything. This is an 1850 list so at 2000 I guess you could add an Stalker easily enough.
Those wraiths with dlord are going to be painfully slow. Anyways my try at 1500 points
HQ Overlord - PS, Phylactery, Warscythe, Veil, Res Orb
Cryptek - Chrono, Solar Staff
Idea is all the Lychguard, the OL and Cryptek are a psuedo-deathstar with a one time use invisiblity and deep strike from on the table. Could be fun, I really want to use lychguard.
I have a question for the thread. I recently learned that according to the BRB, Praetorians aren't able to shoot their Rod and then use it in melee in the same turn, c/d?
I used something like Orikan, vargard, OL from the Reclaimation, and 5 shield lychgard. It's an amazing unit for taking shooting and if you can get it into melee but the point cost is insane and for the same points, you could take a beefed up destroyer cult, Judicator Battalion, maxed canopatek swarm, etc. For something only moving 6" a turn, it's not terrible hard to stay away from it.
changemod wrote: I'd veil. Deep striking aggressively usually isn't too bad in practice unless you're moving an entire blob or trying to squeeze into a small space near a board edge. Certainly, you can afford to take Dangerous Terrain tests easily enough. If you got for a Cryptek this also has the benefit of giving you 4+++ against instant death if you're not in a Decurion.
If you are in a Decurion, put the Reclamation Legion Overlord in the Deathstar for rerolling ones on reanimation too.
And yeah, I wouldn't even call the base unit a Deathstar any more than I'd call assault terminators with a combat character a Deathstar. It's just good synergy.
The issue I've found is that if you choose a safe landing zone and scatter, even if you run, the opponent gets a good chance to make distance between you. The power of the Scythe is that, as long as they're around 42" away from your table edge (i.e. most of the board in Dawn of War or Vanguard and over half of Hammer and Anvil), you basically start on top of them.
Still, there's something to be said for traversing the length of the board on turn 1. You could make an interesting Alpha Strike list, something like:
Orikan
Obyron
Overlord w/ Warscythe
5x Lychguard
Conclave of the Burning One
Nightbringer
Cryptek w/ God Shackle, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff
910 points for both, though might change with upgrades (Res Orb/Phase Shifter/etc on Overlord, Chronometron/Solar Thermasite on the Conclave). A bit expensive, but both of those just pop over onto your opponent's doorstep turn 1.
Coincidentally, Orikan/Obyron/Overlord is exactly the base requirements for a Royal Court, which means that even when not part of a Decurion, the Lychguard will have Move Through Cover and therefore will ignore Difficult/Dangerous Terrain when landing. Conclave has it because Monstrous Creature.
Expensive for an 1850 list (assuming regular tournament points), but for an Alpha Strike you could do a lot worse. Two very tough squads with high killing power jumping across, and then ~800 points controlling your backfield and moving forward. Maybe an 1850 list like:
CAD: HQ Nemesor Zahndrekh (still stupidly good)
Elites
5x Lychguard w/ Shields
Troops
5x Immortals in Night Scythe
10x Warriors in Ghost Ark
14x Warriors
Heavy Support
3x Heavy Destroyers
Royal Court: Orikan
Obyron
Overlord w/ Warscythe
Conclave of the Burning One: Nightbringer
Cryptek w/ God Shackle, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff
1842
2 durable Turn 1 Deep Strikes, then 3 ObSec units in the backfield supported by a stupidly good Warlord, 3 Lascannons, and a Flyer with ObSec coming in when needed (thanks to Zahndrekh being able to pick Reserve manipulation traits).
Edit: Maybe better to have 3 one-man Heavy Destroyers so they can split their fire and arcs, but then they might just be First Blood.
Hollismason wrote: The Decurion's really the best way to build the Death Star honestly because it's cheaper and gives it a better ability ( Teleport x 2)
Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
10 Lychguard w/ Warscythes
Royal Court
Nemesor < Overlord
Orikan < Cryptek
Obyron < Lord
All the Lychguard can Reroll 1s on Protocols, Everyone has a 4+ ( Remember the Decurion gives the 4++ to everyone even the Royal court)
Nemesor gives the entire squad whatever bonuses that your enemy has.
You can build that same unit in CAD + Royal Court for the exact same cost. And they still have 4+ RP because Orikan gives the +1 to Reanimation since he's a Cryptek. So the only thing the Decurion gains is reroll 1s of RP (very good) and 4+ RP against ID weapons (situational at best, since you're all T5).
But on the other hand, now you're stuck in a Decurion for the rest of your army and none of your Troops will have ObSec. So it's only a minor bump in durability to build the Orikanstar this way at the loss of objective control, which can make or break games.
That's a good point for it, yeah I'd say the sacrifice is worth it although I wouldn't take Dispersion shields on the unit , just Warscythes, and I'd take a Res Orb with your Overlord for extra goodness. It's so expensive though.
Troops
5 Immortals in NightScythes
5 Immortals in Night Scythes
Fast Attack
5 Wraiths w/ Whip Coils
Royal Court:
Orikan
Obyron
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb
Conclave of the Burning One:
Nightbringer
Cryptek w/ God Shackle, Veil of Darkness
Cryptek w/ Solar Staff
On the nose at 1850 should be, Enjoy just 3 units that are meant to destroy you of course though a army of Wave Serpents can just run rough shod on you all game long since you have like 0 shooting ability.
Hollismason wrote: The Decurion's really the best way to build the Death Star honestly because it's cheaper and gives it a better ability ( Teleport x 2)
Overlord w/ Veil of Darkness, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
10 Lychguard w/ Warscythes
Royal Court
Nemesor < Overlord
Orikan < Cryptek
Obyron < Lord
All the Lychguard can Reroll 1s on Protocols, Everyone has a 4+ ( Remember the Decurion gives the 4++ to everyone even the Royal court)
Nemesor gives the entire squad whatever bonuses that your enemy has.
Why is that though?
Well Nemesor picks a different Warlord Trait every turn which is crazy town plus you know he has ZEALOT.
I agree that's a crazy good deathstar but I want to run wraiths without taking harvest, 110 point tax is rough. I would have to spend about 200 hundred bucks just to have enough models to run a decurion anyway.
It's a good point in that the Decurion has a TAX thats pretty hefty and you lose Obsec. What combos are good with Nemesor for giving the squad though. He comes with Zealot that's pretty good already.
This is something I just thought of
Allies of Convenience / Desperate
Units from the same army that are Allies of Convenience treat each other as ‘enemy units’ that cannot be charged, shot, attacked in close combat, or targeted with psychic powers.
Take a Callidus Assassin, pretty sure they come with Hit and Run and Stealth right?
Callidus isn't a terrible unit either. I'm actually not sure what assassins have what, I thought that the Callidus had hit and run though, plus stealth and maybe Furious Charge?
Hollismason wrote: It's a good point in that the Decurion has a TAX thats pretty hefty and you lose Obsec. What combos are good with Nemesor for giving the squad though. He comes with Zealot that's pretty good already.
This is something I just thought of
Allies of Convenience / Desperate
Units from the same army that are Allies of Convenience treat each other as ‘enemy units’ that cannot be charged, shot, attacked in close combat, or targeted with psychic powers.
Take a Callidus Assassin, pretty sure they come with Hit and Run and Stealth right?
Callidus isn't a terrible unit either. I'm actually not sure what assassins have what, I thought that the Callidus had hit and run though, plus stealth and maybe Furious Charge?
He doesn't come with Zealot, he only has it for Turn 1. At the start of Turn 2, he has to switch it for another Warlord Trait and cannot go back to one he's had before.
Actually the rule says that he MAY pick it not that he has to he can just keep Zealot.
Adaptive Tactics: If Nemesor Zahndrekh is your Warlord, you may select a different Warlord Trait for him (no D6 roll is necessary) at the start of each friendly turn after the first –
Pretty definitive and mkes the Deathstar better actually.
It may make the deathstar mathematically more resilient, but you have to pump points into the Decurion to make it work. Is that worth what you get out of it? I'm not sure
Orikan
5 Shieldguard w/ Night Scythe
Overlord w/ Warscythe, Res Orb
Lord w/ Warscythe
595 points
Orikan
5 Shieldguard
Overlord w/Warscythe, Res Orb
Obyron
515 points
First is nearly 600 points and has to start in reserve, but the Flyer isn't exactly bad. Second is 80 points less and starts on the board, but is less reliable to get into combat.
What do you think is the way to make this unit work?
If you are looking for AP2 and a delivery system Obyron is surely the way to go. He gives the unit a 2+ save you can use to tank, he allows you to deep strike (and start on the board) he has WS6 and AP2 attacks. As far as getting close to the enemy the unit is only a very small foot print, only drastic dice rolls would see you fail I would of thought.
Personally I don't see allot of 2+ armour saves in my group and Id prefer to take them in the flyer with just (Orikan + 5 Lychguard). But if you want AP2 attacks with a delivery system? how many AP do you need? Orikan powered up + Obyron is 7 (9 on the charge) Str 7 AP 2?
That's 1850 and has a somewhat slow deathstar, but from front to back of the unit you can daisy - chain 19" (just in between the wraiths and Orikan, assuming the D Lord is full of fail; becomes more if D Lord doesn't trip over a rock as he does assault moves) so only on hammer and anvil is this really an issue. C'MON MASTER OF AMBUSH! Also if the D Lord can roll 6+ on 2d6 sum then he will be tanking on a re-rollable 2+
Orikan is such a steal at his point value, actually all of the Characters are rather inexpensive, I can't actually think of one that's absolutely god awful ( Not counting c'tans by themselves.)
Hollismason wrote: It's a good point in that the Decurion has a TAX thats pretty hefty and you lose Obsec. What combos are good with Nemesor for giving the squad though. He comes with Zealot that's pretty good already.
This is something I just thought of
Allies of Convenience / Desperate
Units from the same army that are Allies of Convenience treat each other as ‘enemy units’ that cannot be charged, shot, attacked in close combat, or targeted with psychic powers.
Take a Callidus Assassin, pretty sure they come with Hit and Run and Stealth right?
Callidus isn't a terrible unit either. I'm actually not sure what assassins have what, I thought that the Callidus had hit and run though, plus stealth and maybe Furious Charge?
He doesn't come with Zealot, he only has it for Turn 1. At the start of Turn 2, he has to switch it for another Warlord Trait and cannot go back to one he's had before.
Adaptive Tactics is an optional ability, you don't have to activate it if you would rather keep Eternal Madness. Or you could do it once, get something better, and keep that.
Hollismason wrote:Orikan is such a steal at his point value, actually all of the Characters are rather inexpensive, I can't actually think of one that's absolutely god awful ( Not counting c'tans by themselves.)
Trazyn and Anrakyr are fairly garbage. Imotekh is pretty situational, but not bad.
BrotherGecko wrote:This depends, is it a shooting attack or not?
Nope. It's just a "In the shooting phase, pick a target within 12". They take 3d6-LD wounds." ability.
Hmmmmm.....makes sense looks weird. While I own a NB I'm going to sit a wait to see what happens with that. As the moment it gets declared a shooting attack it won't effect invisiblity or FMClol.
That is what I was getting at. If it gets FAQ'd to be a shooting attack (or something more clear) sometime in 8th ed (4 months from now ) it will not effect FMC or Invisibilty. As shooting attacks that do not roll to hit can not hit either of them.
Play it up while there is still time but I will wait to see wait happens.
Side note, I can not believe how poorly written this codex was. Move over MSS and Tesla haters! just got realy yo!
Yeah I feel like it doesn't roll to hit and can target flyers and invisible units alike. I think it can also work out of combat but I feel like targeting into combat might be the line. I emailed Reece to see how they're going to rule that for the LVO
Going back to the Orikan + LG deathstar for a bit, any Olord you put in that unit with a 2+/4++ is going to be nearly unkillable. So, while at first I was think Orikan + Shield LG, I swapped it around to Orikan + 2 or 3 Olord tanks (including Zandy) + WSLG.
Zandy
Olord + Phylactery + Phase Shifter + Res Orb + Shroud + WS Lord + WS + Solar Staff
Orikan
5 WSLG Night Scythe
810
'Something like that. Stick Zandy and the Olord out and front and this thing is pretty tough to kill, and with 15 base WS attacks + Orikan you'll shred just about anything in CC.
On the flip side, you can use your LG as the bullet wounds and do something like this:
Olord + WS Olord + WS Lord + WS Lord + WS Lord + WS Orikan
5 x Sword and Board LG Night Scythe
Which just so happens to be the exact same price. In this one, you have 12 base WS attacks, 10 Base S5 AP3 attacks, and Orikan. So, you get a little punchier with the Sword and Board, strangely enough. However, the beef of the previous formations wound soaking ability is 6 2+/4++ with reroll to 1 saved IWND wounds, instead of 5 3++ with reroll to 1 saves. The first formation also has a Res Orb and Solar Staff already included in the price. The second formation does net you 4 more total wounds, though, fwiw.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Just thought of this as a one two punch::
(Using CAD + RC formation)
Zandy
Chronotek + Veil
10 Gauss Immortals
435
Obyron
10 WSLG Chronotek + Solar Staff
475
With a little bit of luck, you should be able to cram 3 WS attacks directly up your opponent's ass the first turn, and there's not a hole lot they can do about it besides run.
Is there though anyway to make the Deathstar less expensive? I think there is..
Orikan
Obyron
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord , Warscythe, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
5 Lychguard - 125
Total 595
Plus the cost of a Destroyer Cult but seriously that's a crazy good thing anyway.
Yes or no, but it has the Added benefit of 4+ , 4+ reroll . 2+ Rerollable .. added benefit of a Toughness 6 with a 2+ reroll, 4+, 4+ possible reroll. Cheaper as well I think
Hollismason wrote: Is there though anyway to make the Deathstar less expensive? I think there is..
Orikan
Obyron
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord , Warscythe, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
5 Lychguard - 125
Total 595
Plus the cost of a Destroyer Cult but seriously that's a crazy good thing anyway.
Yes or no, but it has the Added benefit of 4+ , 4+ reroll . 2+ Rerollable .. added benefit of a Toughness 6 with a 2+ reroll, 4+, 4+ possible reroll. Cheaper as well I think
This... I like this. Destroyer Lord loses out on the WS5 of the Lord, but gains HoW, PE(E!), and T6. T6 doesn't help except in Challenges and against S10 attacks, but it's nice to have. While the DLord is more expensive than the Overlord, it also keeps you from having to bring Royal Court (and therefore another HQ on top of the Deathstar ones).
The only downside to this that I see is that, while taking the extra character costs points, it is nice to not have your Warlord in the Deep Striking forward squad. My original plan was to have Zahndrekh in the backline as my Warlord while the Orikanstar jumped forward. Also, this can't take a Night Scythe if it wanted to, since the DLord can't go inside.
Ups and downs, but I think it's not bad overall. I also am overall a fan of the Destroyer Cult, so I have no problem bringing that.
CAD HQ Orikan
Obyron
Troops
10x Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
6x Immortals w/ Night Scythe
6x Immortals w/ Night Scythe
Elites
5x Lychguard w/ Shields
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy
3x Heavy Destroyer
1834. Could upgrade to the Voidreaper, I guess, or drop an Immortal from each squad and get something else. Decent amount of ObSec, good mobility thanks to Scythes (which also bring air presence) and Destroyers, plus a strong Deathstar. I suppose dropping one of the Night Scythes in lieu of more ObSec units might not be a bad trade, but getting those Immortals to where they want to go seems more important than more Troops footslogging across the board. Overall, this is only 8 squads in 1850: 44 models, 3 of which are Vehicles. That's a bit small, but I think it might be alright.
Hollismason wrote: Is there though anyway to make the Deathstar less expensive? I think there is..
Orikan
Obyron
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord , Warscythe, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Res Orb
5 Lychguard - 125
Total 595
Plus the cost of a Destroyer Cult but seriously that's a crazy good thing anyway.
Yes or no, but it has the Added benefit of 4+ , 4+ reroll . 2+ Rerollable .. added benefit of a Toughness 6 with a 2+ reroll, 4+, 4+ possible reroll. Cheaper as well I think
This... I like this. Destroyer Lord loses out on the WS5 of the Lord, but gains HoW, PE(E!), and T6. T6 doesn't help except in Challenges and against S10 attacks, but it's nice to have. While the DLord is more expensive than the Overlord, it also keeps you from having to bring Royal Court (and therefore another HQ on top of the Deathstar ones).
The only downside to this that I see is that, while taking the extra character costs points, it is nice to not have your Warlord in the Deep Striking forward squad. My original plan was to have Zahndrekh in the backline as my Warlord while the Orikanstar jumped forward. Also, this can't take a Night Scythe if it wanted to, since the DLord can't go inside.
Ups and downs, but I think it's not bad overall. I also am overall a fan of the Destroyer Cult, so I have no problem bringing that.
CAD HQ Orikan
Obyron
Troops
10x Warriors w/ Ghost Ark
6x Immortals w/ Night Scythe
6x Immortals w/ Night Scythe
Elites
5x Lychguard w/ Shields
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy
2x Destroyer, 1x Heavy
3x Heavy Destroyer
1834. Could upgrade to the Voidreaper, I guess, or drop an Immortal from each squad and get something else. Decent amount of ObSec, good mobility thanks to Scythes (which also bring air presence) and Destroyers, plus a strong Deathstar. I suppose dropping one of the Night Scythes in lieu of more ObSec units might not be a bad trade, but getting those Immortals to where they want to go seems more important than more Troops footslogging across the board. Overall, this is only 8 squads in 1850: 44 models, 3 of which are Vehicles. That's a bit small, but I think it might be alright.
Hey, what do ya'll think about this as a singular concept ::
Cryptek + Chronomotron
10 Gauss Immortals
Night Scythe
390 points that's a pretty solid HQ option for a basic CAD. Mobile, resilient, Ob Sec, which causes a respectable amount of pain at 12".
260 points for 12 3+/5++ RP 4+ wounds is kind of a steal. You are basically getting better or equal to TH/SS termie wounds for less the 22 points a pop.
No particular list in mind with it. It just seems like a good solid HQ/Troop option if you have nothing else planned.
Well yeah, a Cryptek with the Chronometron is going to be good in nearly any biggish squad you put him in. They're pretty good generic HQs, but 90 points really wants to be part of a large squad so it's more worthwhile. 90 points to boost 5 units is garbage, but 90 points to boost a 20 man warrior squad is a pittance, only 4.5 ppm, plus a character. Basically, if a squad is a fire magnet (like Immortals that drop down out of a Scythe into enemy lines) or if it's big enough and you're not using your HQ slot for more important things (in a more horde oriented army), then Crypteks are pretty good boosts. But, if you're running more MSU, if you're not focusing on Troops, if everything is in vehicles... they're not so good.
So how about those Triarch Stalkers. What would be considered to he its best weapon option? And with the points reduction could that functionally replace the fallen Annibarge?
BrotherGecko wrote: So how about those Triarch Stalkers. What would be considered to he its best weapon option? And with the points reduction could that functionally replace the fallen Annibarge?
I like the Heat ray because it's 2 shots.
I like this deathstar:
Anrakyr
9x Lychguard
Ghost ark
BrotherGecko wrote: So how about those Triarch Stalkers. What would be considered to he its best weapon option? And with the points reduction could that functionally replace the fallen Annibarge?
I like the Heat ray because it's 2 shots.
I like this deathstar:
Anrakyr
9x Lychguard
Ghost ark
Obviously only possible in a normal FoC
I'm a little confused about this one. Why Anrakyr? And also Lychguard can't ride in a Ghost Ark.
Is Orikan's Master Chronomancer special rule re-roll limited to only protocol's saves?
Why isnt there more talk about how good tomb blades are? 3+ followed by a 4+ on a t5 platform is amazing! In rapid fire range they on average kill a wave serpent, while wave serpents on average only kill one or two. They normally get to do whatever they like because your opponent is usually fixated on the canoptek harvest wraiths. I love the durability of the Decurion Detachment it is almost to good to be true you are basically getting a free cryptek in every unit.
Fooling around with MSU, using a CAD + just the Reclamation as a detachment ::
Spoiler:
Reclamation
Olord
10 x Warriors
10 x Warriors
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
3 x Nube TBs
740
CAD
Szeras
5 x Flayed Ones
5 x Flayed Ones
5 x Flayed Ones
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1115
Comes out to 1855 total. Over 100 Necron wounds spread across 22+ units. I was just throwing it together as a template...but that actually looks...reasonably competitive? It doesn't have super serious fire power, but enough to keep pace, I think.
It would be a damn nightmare to bring down, that's for sure.
I'm not even sure if you can take a Reclamation as a detachment though? I mean, lets say a Tournament allows Primary + 1 detachment. not sure how that would work.
BrotherGecko wrote: So how about those Triarch Stalkers. What would be considered to he its best weapon option? And with the points reduction could that functionally replace the fallen Annibarge?
My opinion is the best weapon is the Heat Ray, for a number of reasons. Mostly, because it keeps the Stalker cheap. In addition, because you don't need to hit for it's effect anymore, the twinlinked and the range don't matter as much. You can generally always find a use for a doubetap melta.
It does not replace the abarge though. The only thing I've found to really replace the firepower of the Abarge has been the Obelisk.
Yeah, I agree with Sasori more and more on the Heat Ray. Both double tap Melta and he Heavy F template can be useful things in a Necron list. The one reason I would go with HGC is so you can keep the Stalker as far back as possible, because he does tend to draw some serious firepower.
ShadarLogoth wrote: Fooling around with MSU, using a CAD + just the Reclamation as a detachment ::
Spoiler:
Reclamation
Olord
10 x Warriors
10 x Warriors
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
3 x Nube TBs
740
CAD
Szeras
5 x Flayed Ones
5 x Flayed Ones
5 x Flayed Ones
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1115
Comes out to 1855 total. Over 100 Necron wounds spread across 22+ units. I was just throwing it together as a template...but that actually looks...reasonably competitive? It doesn't have super serious fire power, but enough to keep pace, I think.
It would be a damn nightmare to bring down, that's for sure.
I'm not even sure if you can take a Reclamation as a detachment though? I mean, lets say a Tournament allows Primary + 1 detachment. not sure how that would work.
You can take a Reclamation legion as a formation but it is completely pointless. Taking a Decurion only requires one auxiliary so all you need is to add 1 squad of flayed ones and everyone gets +1 RP and improved living metal.
To get the maximum potential out of your list you need to move the Reclamation legion into a Decurion and take all three units of FO as auxiliary formations in the Decurion (so they all get +1RP too). Then take whatever you want in your CAD.
changemod wrote: Anrakyr's not awful like Trazyn, just a little too situational to just grab because his benefits are all over the place.
Ideally I'd use him like this:
Outside a Decurion, so his warlord trait means anything,
Szeras as the other HQ to buff a whole gunline with Technomancy,
Pick the Phyrrian Eternals as the recipients of Szeras's buff,
You now have a unit of relentless gauss immortals with S5 on the charge and a random buff to either:
S6 on the charge, 5 afterwards.
T5,
Or BS5.
All led by a character with S8 on the charge for attempts at instant death, and a once per game S10 AP1 shot.
Are their better options? Yeah, but hey: Pretty solid all rounder unit.
I mean sure, if you want a squad of Hero Immortals running around charging into combat, he makes them good at that. But I can't really think of any time where I would want that over any other Character's ability or even a customizable Overlord. Except maybe in like, Zone Mortalis or Kill Team, but usually they disallow Named Characters.
BrotherGecko wrote: So how about those Triarch Stalkers. What would be considered to he its best weapon option? And with the points reduction could that functionally replace the fallen Annibarge?
I like the Heat ray because it's 2 shots.
I like this deathstar:
Anrakyr
9x Lychguard
Ghost ark
Obviously only possible in a normal FoC
I'm a little confused about this one. Why Anrakyr? And also Lychguard can't ride in a Ghost Ark.
Anrakyr because he has furios charge, making his Warscythe Str 8.
I am a very sad panda. Why would they make ghost ark a FA if you can only bring warriors. :(
BrotherGecko wrote: So how about those Triarch Stalkers. What would be considered to he its best weapon option? And with the points reduction could that functionally replace the fallen Annibarge?
I like the Heat ray because it's 2 shots.
I like this deathstar:
Anrakyr
9x Lychguard
Ghost ark
Obviously only possible in a normal FoC
I'm a little confused about this one. Why Anrakyr? And also Lychguard can't ride in a Ghost Ark.
Anrakyr because he has furios charge, making his Warscythe Str 8.
I am a very sad panda. Why would they make ghost ark a FA if you can only bring warriors. :(
Most people's attention will focus on the Wraiths. Instead of focussing on the Wraiths, I'm growing a scarab swarm with 4+ RP by 10 bases per round. The other scarabs are bubble wrap, and a backup plan, and the other 6 shooty squads can focus their attention on objectives.
Most people's attention will focus on the Wraiths. Instead of focussing on the Wraiths, I'm growing a scarab swarm with 4+ RP by 10 bases per round. The other scarabs are bubble wrap, and a backup plan, and the other 6 shooty squads can focus their attention on objectives.
There's an interesting thought. The thing in the game right now is "Wraiths are so scary aaaaa". But, they're relatively cheap. 240 for 6 isn't too overcosted, so taking just the 6 with no upgrades and throwing them out as a DISTRACTION CARNIFEX isn't a bad idea. Just dump the rest of the points into the rest of your army. Or heck, just 4-5 of em. People still will have an irrational fear of them.
I agree with Requizen. I played a game last night with one squad of 4 naked wraiths and it was promptly shot at, and after soaking up all the Devestator missiles, one died and the remaining 3 were assaulted by BA Libby, Priest, 10 man assault squad. Tarpitted a fairly solid FC/FnP/WS5 unit THE WHOLE GAME. 160 pts. to effectively render at least 200-250 pts useless for the game? Plus taking an entire round of first turn missile fire away from my other units? Yes, please. And Thank you.
Meanwhile, my 18 FO's with obyron/cryptek w/chromo ghost mantled turn 1, got assaulted by 8XDeathcompany which were dispatched easily, and later 8XSnguinary guard, also dispatched.
Flayed ones are so cheap for so many attacks and surprisingly survivable against dedicated CC with a 5+invuln/4+ I can't leave them on the shelf, especially with how bad they used to be last edition.
lindelldds wrote:I agree with Requizen. I played a game last night with one squad of 4 naked wraiths and it was promptly shot at, and after soaking up all the Devestator missiles, one died and the remaining 3 were assaulted by BA Libby, Priest, 10 man assault squad. Tarpitted a fairly solid FC/FnP/WS5 unit THE WHOLE GAME. 160 pts. to effectively render at least 200-250 pts useless for the game? Plus taking an entire round of first turn missile fire away from my other units? Yes, please. And Thank you.
Meanwhile, my 18 FO's with obyron/cryptek w/chromo ghost mantled turn 1, got assaulted by 8XDeathcompany which were dispatched easily, and later 8XSnguinary guard, also dispatched.
Flayed ones are so cheap for so many attacks and surprisingly survivable against dedicated CC with a 5+invuln/4+ I can't leave them on the shelf, especially with how bad they used to be last edition.
Not to burst your bubble, but that 5++ only works against shooting.
Unless you realized that, just the way you wrote it made it sound like you were using the 5++ in Assault.
Sasori wrote:
Requizen wrote: Speaking of ABarges, have people been using them as of late? Are they still worth taking with the points change?
Not really. I'm pretty fond of the Obelisk now though.
Same. 300 points is really a steal for it. Even if you're only getting 2 Spheres per turn, it's a lot of firepower, screws over Skimmers somewhat (insert crying Eldar/DEldar), and is a massive fire magnet that will take a lot of shooting to bring down.
Sorry buddy, them's the rules. Still not bad for them, of course. 4+/5++/4+++ against shooting helps them get to where they need to be. And they're still 4+++ against S7 and below, 5+++ against the rest. Plenty should survive regardless.
I still would have won on objectives even if the FO's would have died...so I don't feel as bad...still a new codex idiot move on my part. Thanks for setting me straight!
What are our new heavy hitters? The new codex seems to have enhanced our durability significantly, so trying to figure out where our heavy hitters are at.
There are:
C'tan
Nightbringer's Gaze
Doomsday Ark
Mono
Tesseract Ark
Night Shroud
Pylon
Basically what are our models that can do the most damage in low numbers? I think it'd be incredibly useful if everytime my opponent pivots a unit that can actually tarpit my wraiths, I "soften them up" so instead of being tied up the rest of the game, they can mop up and go on to the next bunch just as quickly.
Monolith still kinda sucks, Tesseract Ark only got nerfed with this edition (read the wording on Quantum Shielding), and the Pylon is still a superheavy AA gun that can't hit ground targets.
Ferros wrote: What are our new heavy hitters? The new codex seems to have enhanced our durability significantly, so trying to figure out where our heavy hitters are at.
There are:
C'tan
Nightbringer's Gaze
Doomsday Ark
Mono
Tesseract Ark
Night Shroud
Pylon
Basically what are our models that can do the most damage in low numbers? I think it'd be incredibly useful if everytime my opponent pivots a unit that can actually tarpit my wraiths, I "soften them up" so instead of being tied up the rest of the game, they can mop up and go on to the next bunch just as quickly.
Forgot Doomsday Ark. S10 AP1 Lance is nothing to laugh at.
Obelisk? I just now realized that super heavy vehicles had their own chart for tank shocking and ramming. So not only does an obelisk have tesla spheres and gravity pulse, but it can also potentially destroy units by simply tank shocking. lol
Ferros wrote: What are our new heavy hitters? The new codex seems to have enhanced our durability significantly, so trying to figure out where our heavy hitters are at.
There are:
C'tan
Nightbringer's Gaze
Doomsday Ark
Mono
Tesseract Ark
Night Shroud
Pylon
Basically what are our models that can do the most damage in low numbers? I think it'd be incredibly useful if everytime my opponent pivots a unit that can actually tarpit my wraiths, I "soften them up" so instead of being tied up the rest of the game, they can mop up and go on to the next bunch just as quickly.
Still Sylos, as with the old codex, as they remain incredibly broken and can spam out S10 hits.
Ferros wrote: What are our new heavy hitters? The new codex seems to have enhanced our durability significantly, so trying to figure out where our heavy hitters are at.
There are:
C'tan
Nightbringer's Gaze
Doomsday Ark
Mono
Tesseract Ark
Night Shroud
Pylon
Basically what are our models that can do the most damage in low numbers? I think it'd be incredibly useful if everytime my opponent pivots a unit that can actually tarpit my wraiths, I "soften them up" so instead of being tied up the rest of the game, they can mop up and go on to the next bunch just as quickly.
Still Sylos, as with the old codex, as they remain incredibly broken and can spam out S10 hits.
Honestly I would love to grab a couple Pylons to work them out and own the air targets in the game. Like seriously own. Plus skimmers. I would love if they got the same "can choose to use skyfire" rule as FMC and flyers have. That would make them top tier anti air and I would GLADLY field three of them. Here's to hoping for an update to that book sooner rather than later
Comes out to 1855 total. Over 100 Necron wounds spread across 22+ units. I was just throwing it together as a template...but that actually looks...reasonably competitive? It doesn't have super serious fire power, but enough to keep pace, I think.
It would be a damn nightmare to bring down, that's for sure.
I'm not even sure if you can take a Reclamation as a detachment though? I mean, lets say a Tournament allows Primary + 1 detachment. not sure how that would work.
You can take a Reclamation legion as a formation but it is completely pointless. Taking a Decurion only requires one auxiliary so all you need is to add 1 squad of flayed ones and everyone gets +1 RP and improved living metal.
To get the maximum potential out of your list you need to move the Reclamation legion into a Decurion and take all three units of FO as auxiliary formations in the Decurion (so they all get +1RP too). Then take whatever you want in your CAD.
I definitely see what you are saying, but some tournaments don't allow you to take a full CAD as your plus 1. That was kind of the idea behind it. With less restrictions, of course, what you said is absolutely correct. However, with less restrictions, I might just go double CAD instead, lol. I love MSU resilient ob sec troops. You can win a lot of games just by hanging around longer.
Formation
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord w/ Phase Shifter, Veil of Darkness, Warscythe
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destyoer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 H. Destroyers
1820 , have no idea what you'd spend the rest on..
I mean sure, if you want a squad of Hero Immortals running around charging into combat, he makes them good at that. But I can't really think of any time where I would want that over any other Character's ability or even a customizable Overlord. Except maybe in like, Zone Mortalis or Kill Team, but usually they disallow Named Characters.
A resilient Ob Sec unit that can shoot and charge pretty good? It's really not a bad tool to have, honestly. Plus, you want Anraykr in the thick of it anyway, so pairing him with a sturdy unit that can roll with him kind of works.
I did the An + Iluminor Immortal trick in 5th and it worked pretty well, I think.
Automatically Appended Next Post: @Hollismason
If you were putting Orikan and Oby with one group, I would make it 6 and the other 4, personally.
I agree it's a pretty nifty design, though. Orikan + Wraiths is pretty nasty.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Requizen wrote: Monolith still kinda sucks, Tesseract Ark only got nerfed with this edition (read the wording on Quantum Shielding), and the Pylon is still a superheavy AA gun that can't hit ground targets.
The one area I'm finding potentially for a Mono is in a Destroyer heavy army if you know your are going into a tournament that is completely bereft of terrain. The Pie Plate actually compliments Heavy Ds reasonably well, and more importantly the mobile LOS it provides could be positively clutch. Heavy Ds jumping back and forth behind a Mono could be pretty deadly. Lets say it was the decision between 6 Heavy D's with a Mono or 10 Heavy Ds. With reasonable terrain, I would take the 10 Heavy Ds, but with shoddy terrain, I would seriously consider slotting in the Mono.
And, of course, it's late game capping abilities can be kind of clutch as well. It's probably one of the Mono's best features and is one, along with it's mobile LOS protection, that gets talked about the least.
Formation
Destroyer Cult
Destroyer Lord w/ Phase Shifter, Veil of Darkness, Warscythe
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destyoer
3 Destroyers w/ H. Destroyer
3 H. Destroyers
1820 , have no idea what you'd spend the rest on..
I would run a Obyron list more like this with a toolbox of bombs (wraiths or flayed ones), heavy threats (nightbringer, bargeLord) and all Decurion
4 x Tomb Blades, Nebuloscope, Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blasters
Ghost Ark, 10x Necron Warrior
10x Necron Warrior
Command
Royal Court
Nemesor Zahndrekh, Orikan the Diviner, Vargard Obyron
Auxiliary
Canoptek Harvest
3x Canoptek Scarab
1 x Canoptek Spyder
6 x Canoptek Wraith Whip Coils
10x Flayed Ones
Star-God
C'tan Shard of the Nightbringer
You can make tactical decisions based on opponent of whether Obyron and Orikan and/or Nemesor go with wraiths or flayed ones or hang back with troops. Too many fronts for the opponent to handle. When you have a lot of other threats it gives the bargeLord an opportunity to shine.
You can easily squeeze a Nightmare Shroud on the bargeLord if you like (-1 TB, -1 FO)
Hollismason wrote: The only problem with that is that it doesn't gain the benefit of having the Conclave of the Burning one in it.
I don't like how much the Conclave costs. It sinks too many points into 1 front. I want around 250 points in each front. Adding the conclave boosts resiliency and mobility but it doesn't add damage output.
Obyron w/ 20 Flayed Ones is pretty good as he makes up for the whole no Anti - Av and he's dirt cheap at 120 points.
The Conclave is totally worth that 410 points your going to spend on it with Nightbringer. It's a crapload of shooting, a amazing ability, board control. Also his ability seems to work in CC as well.
Was just thinking about Trazyn, if they had just given him the Warlord Trait Honorable combatant instead he would be a bit better.
But, as is, I just don't see him. If you know HQicide is going to be heavy on a tournaments agenda, then, maybe. You could make him damn near unkillable in the right list. Other then that, bleh. He really should have kept MSS. It's not like it would have made him broken by any stretch, and it still fit what he did, anti horde.
Oh well. Oh, and Ob Sec. They should have given him Ob Sec in place of the old scoring ability. That, alone, would have made him at least considerable in an LG or Wraith bomb. Just didn't work out.
Hollismason wrote: Obyron w/ 20 Flayed Ones is pretty good as he makes up for the whole no Anti - Av and he's dirt cheap at 120 points.
The Conclave is totally worth that 410 points your going to spend on it with Nightbringer. It's a crapload of shooting, a amazing ability, board control. Also his ability seems to work in CC as well.
I dunno. 410 points of Flayed Ones is better than a conclave.
The Conclave is totally worth that 410 points your going to spend on it with Nightbringer. It's a crapload of shooting, a amazing ability, board control. Also his ability seems to work in CC as well.
I'm kind of leaning towards that too, to be honest. I'd really have to play it to see, but it's really not a bad unit, I don't think. You know, I was just thinking, what about pairing him up with the Doom Scythe formation? Heavy investment, to be sure, but could be cute. Of course the alternative is pairing him with the Deceiver, but with only one Conclave up our sleeve delivering the Deceiver becomes problematic. It's really too bad they can't pop out of the Mono anymore.
The Conclave is totally worth that 410 points your going to spend on it with Nightbringer. It's a crapload of shooting, a amazing ability, board control. Also his ability seems to work in CC as well.
I'm kind of leaning towards that too, to be honest. I'd really have to play it to see, but it's really not a bad unit, I don't think. You know, I was just thinking, what about pairing him up with the Doom Scythe formation? Heavy investment, to be sure, but could be cute. Of course the alternative is pairing him with the Deceiver, but with only one Conclave up our sleeve delivering the Deceiver becomes problematic. It's really too bad they can't pop out of the Mono anymore.
The problem is when you put that many points into a unit and make it uber resilient, the opponent just ignores it and focuses on the threats it can dispatch. And for that many points wouldn't an IK be a better deal? The IK manages to move 12'' and pound with a D weapon in CC. Or alternatively a riptide and some obsec kroot troops as allies?
I dunno. 410 points of Flayed Ones is better than a conclave.
31 Flayed Ones is very legit, for sure. Or, maybe, 20 Flayed Ones and some HQ love.
However, Flayed Ones have two very specific classes they are very bad at in CC, Walkers and T8. So....the argument for Flayed Ones + Conclave definitely could be made. They are a pretty solid combo.
It's 410 yeah that's a point sink but not as much as you'd think with those abilities. Plus board controls a good thing.
It think we'll see more of it, gonna try it out again previously I didn't buff it with the Staff so I'll do that next time pls didn't really take full advantage of the shooting abilities.
Using Flayed ones as infiltrators w/ the C'tan formation is a really good suggestion.
The problem is when you put that many points into a unit and make it uber resilient, the opponent just ignores it and focuses on the threats it can dispatch.
Of course. That's why you give it DS and make them deal with it, or eat it's firepower every turn. The Conclave will consistently mulch Infantry squads down if you ignore it.
I mean, I guess if you have the mobility to just completely abandon the side of the board he's on, you can ignore him. An 18" bubble around the C'Tan casts a pretty big shadow, though, and he can still tickle you with his Rando with a 30" bubble.
But the key is definitely pairing him with the right tools to provide ample amounts of board control. Flayed Ones I think are on top of that list.
Yeah I could see Conclave , Obyron w/ Wraiths, D- Lord w/ Flayed Ones working. Two units that get delivered on turn 1 and 1 on Turn 2 that deep strikes. Okay that works. Not that expensive either which leaves points left over. D- Lord needs a Scythe and Phase Shifter, maybe Nightmare Shroud to tank wounds for the Flayed ones, Obyron has the ability to teleport the Wraiths.
Decurion
Zandy for the overlord plus the normal MSU.
Triarch Formation
Conclave (Solar Staff / Veil )
Group of 20 Flayed Ones (will Infiltrate and snake back to Zandy to join first round)
4 Groups of 5 Flayed Ones to DS or Outfank with.
1890, so have a little room to play with there.
That's a serious ass CC force though. Hordes, Knights, MCs, vehicles, you pretty much got all the bases covered there. And even your troops are relentless, so at least in terms of Wave Serpents and the like, they add to your area deniablility quotient.
I'd play that list.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Came up with this for an Anraykr list ::
Spoiler:
Reclamation
Anraykr
10 x Warriors
10 x Warriors
10 x Gauss Immortals (Pyrrhian)
3 x Nube TBs
780
CAD
Szeras (Buffs Pyrrhians)
Cryptek + Solar Staff + Chronomotron (Goes with Pyrrhians)
5 x Flayed Ones
1 x Tomb Stalker
1 x Tomb Stalker
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
5 x Immortals
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1 x Heavy Destroyer
1120
Another list falling in around 1950. One way or another you end up with a pretty nasty squad of Immortals around Anraykr.
In just a normal list 2 units of 15 Flayed Ones, 2 Units of Wraiths , 1 Conclave seems like it'd hit like a brick and be really annoying to play against 2 big units of dangerous infiltrators and a unit thats going to deep strike then when you try and get away the Wraiths just go after you.
Yep pretty much. You could easily swap the TPs for Wraiths in the Decurion I threw together, I just felt the TPs would be a better fit for anti Knight (VB/PC). Wraiths are okay at the task, but VB/PC are bit better, particularly in that formation.
IMO the best "brick" to start with in a list contains the below;
Destroyer Cult;
1 x Destroyer Lord w/ 2+ armour save and a Warscythe
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
3 x Heavy Destroyers
Combined Arms Detachment;
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
Should be enough AA there to at least break even if not win the air battle, you also have the late game contest ability still. Destroyers arriving from reserve to contest / grab objectives and annoy the crap out of the enemy.
bodazoka wrote: IMO the best "brick" to start with in a list contains the below;
Destroyer Cult;
1 x Destroyer Lord w/ 2+ armour save and a Warscythe
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
3 x Heavy Destroyers
Combined Arms Detachment;
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
Should be enough AA there to at least break even if not win the air battle, you also have the late game contest ability still. Destroyers arriving from reserve to contest / grab objectives and annoy the crap out of the enemy.
Any ideas on what else the list needs?
Meh, if you're gonna do flyer spam, take a Deathbringer flight and eradicate FMCs and heavy vehicles.
Necrons don't need to contest objectives with five guys, exterminating the offending unit and dropping a fast unit onto their objective to steal it works fine.
Night Scythes are good but you could also just spend the points on 3 Tomb Blades w/ Nebuloscopes and a Quad Gun, BS 4 Twin linked ignores jink. That's pretty good and cheap, pay for a upgrade of Particle Beamers or use them to grab late game objectives.
If flyers get close to a Tomb Blade unit with Gauss they can strip hull points if it's a large unit. Especially if they get Rear Armour Shots on them and they won't get their jink save against them at all.
Like others have said , basically have to almost ignore Flyers or out survive them now. FMC is something to worry about though and that's where Doomscythes and Tomb Blades on Quad Guns come in.
bodazoka wrote: IMO the best "brick" to start with in a list contains the below;
Destroyer Cult;
1 x Destroyer Lord w/ 2+ armour save and a Warscythe
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
3 x Heavy Destroyers
Combined Arms Detachment;
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
Should be enough AA there to at least break even if not win the air battle, you also have the late game contest ability still. Destroyers arriving from reserve to contest / grab objectives and annoy the crap out of the enemy.
I haven't had a chance to try the army out yet, but I imagine that my oppoenent will find it quite difficult trying to wipe out a scarab swarm that grows by 10 bases per turn and has 4+ RP.
How many points is that? Also and again the Destroyer Cult shines with the ability to take 1 more H. Support choice and 3 more Fast Attack Choices. However this army has no defense against flying so I dunno how that would work out.
I don't have it exactly tweaked, yet because I don't really know what I want out of the HQs, but my group is usually running 2000 points, but it would be easy to trim it to 1850
------------
The Destroyer Cult is the bane of Space Marines. My first game with the new codex, I ran the Destroyer Cult against Black Templars at 1000 points. Move, Shoot, Jet Pack back into cover, repeat. He had never played agaisnt Necron Desttroyers before. You should have seen his face when he realised none of his models would be getting to roll armor saves.
If you take a full Cult of the Destroyer and drop one heavy, you have just enough points to buy the D Lord a Phylactery and Phase Shifter and fit in 1000 points.
Having a tanker instead of a Heavy in one unit isn't ideal, but it's something I guess. You can keep the staff of light, or go for a Hyperphase Sword or Voidblade to taste.
New question, am I crazy or would a Destroyer Cult w/ Tomb Blades , Doom Scythes and Annihilation Barges be awesome.
Like just straight up Massive Firepower as much as possible.
I rekon you are spot on with the Destroyer Cult paired with a "biker" tomb blade army. I am not sure of the constitution exactly but I think it would be an MSU style army that are super hard to catch or shoot at and very resilient?
Not so sure about the Scythes or Barges though.. Maybe a big ass Obelisk deep striking in the middle of the board instead?
I am, 5 game tourney today and tomorrow. I ended up taking the simpler list I posted first (CAD: CCB, 2 arks, 12 wraiths, 9 scarabs, 9 spyders), because keeping track of which unit belongs to the harvest and which doesn't, didn't feel like something I'd be able to do all weekend... I'll try to post a quick overview of how it went.
bodazoka wrote: IMO the best "brick" to start with in a list contains the below;
Destroyer Cult;
1 x Destroyer Lord w/ 2+ armour save and a Warscythe
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
2 x Destroyers, 1 x Heady Destroyer
3 x Heavy Destroyers
Combined Arms Detachment;
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
5 x Immortals in a Night Scythe
Should be enough AA there to at least break even if not win the air battle, you also have the late game contest ability still. Destroyers arriving from reserve to contest / grab objectives and annoy the crap out of the enemy.
Any ideas on what else the list needs?
Meh, if you're gonna do flyer spam, take a Deathbringer flight and eradicate FMCs and heavy vehicles.
Necrons don't need to contest objectives with five guys, exterminating the offending unit and dropping a fast unit onto their objective to steal it works fine.
I think I like the flexibility to do both that the Night Scythe provides, it can remove flyers and take down FMC's as well as getting my units around the board. I also wouldn't think 3 x flyers is flyer spam? (I assume you don't like flyer spam?).
I don't think the Doom Scythe is any good, id take the Night Scythe over it any day.
I don't think the Doom Scythe is any good, id take the Night Scythe over it any day.
Tbh, the fact that the formation reduces the scatter of each additional Doom Scythe firing at a target. With three Doom Scythes, the 3rd blast is unlikely to scatter against the same target (I'm assuming big threats like Knights or a Flyrant).
bodazoka wrote: I think I like the flexibility to do both that the Night Scythe provides, it can remove flyers and take down FMC's as well as getting my units around the board. I also wouldn't think 3 x flyers is flyer spam? (I assume you don't like flyer spam?).
I don't think the Doom Scythe is any good, id take the Night Scythe over it any day.
Three units is the low end definition of spam, yes. You could certainly take more night scythes than that without taking allies, but that's kind of an exception. Generally you'd be filling an entire FOC section if you took three units of something.
What makes a Doom Scythe great is the ability to cause an as close to guaranteed as you can get pen against any vehicle, with AP1. Some S10 AP1 hits on a FMC mixed in with your S7 AP- makes it's one turn of shooting death more likely too.
Range isn't an issue because FMC want to get close.
You get more hits with Sylons and can now, even moreso than before, use your own troops to increase the amount of hits generated (thx Decurion) and pretty much instantly blast it away. Unless 7th introduced a rule for you to never hit (not target!) your own models.
Range isn't an issue because FMC want to get close.
You get more hits with Sylons and can now, even moreso than before, use your own troops to increase the amount of hits generated (thx Decurion) and pretty much instantly blast it away. Unless 7th introduced a rule for you to never hit (not target!) your own models.
Because how would you take one in a Decurion? You'd need a CAD for that. Too pricey IMO. To me it's either Decurion or CAD, but not both. Doesn't leave enough points for the shiny stuff.
Only played a couple of games so far but I'm liking what I've seen so far.
Wraiths are absolutely disgustingly durable. With a 4+ RP they effectively have a 2++ and it shows - a full deathwing command squad with belial couldn't manage a single wound.
Lychguard just shred terminators to pieces and for 25 points a pop they feel like a real bargain.
I'm looking into a judicator battalion next for some AP2 shooting and some fast response units
So after clarifying that D weapons ignore all RP rolls, not just sixes like I thought, knights seem like our bane. What are some thoughts on army builds to deal with the giants?
buddha wrote: So after clarifying that D weapons ignore all RP rolls, not just sixes like I thought, knights seem like our bane. What are some thoughts on army builds to deal with the giants?
So I'm keen as mustard to get my Necron army going. So far I've got the Tomb Awakened and Battleforce bundles. This is what I've come up with so far, as I want to plan the rest of my purchases accordingly:
Decurion
CCB - Phylactery, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Gauntlet of Fire
Here's where I am stuck: I want to use a unit of 6 Wraiths (who doesn't!) but don't really care for the Spyder and Scarabs. I also like Deathmarks, Praetorians and Lychguard, but don't know where I could fit them in. I think the Doomscythe formation sounds good, but its damned expensive... The list above comes to 1294, and I want to keep it to 2000. How would you fill out the remaining points? Please note that I want to go silver tide, but I could drop the Warriors to 15 each to free up some points (and maybe drop a Ghost Ark and just have the one floating behind both blobs?). I'm also not averse to taking another unit of Gauss Immortals in a Nightscythe to get some more AA presence on the board.
buddha wrote: So after clarifying that D weapons ignore all RP rolls, not just sixes like I thought, knights seem like our bane. What are some thoughts on army builds to deal with the giants?
Big warrior blobs guessing them from multiple directions.
buddha wrote: So after clarifying that D weapons ignore all RP rolls, not just sixes like I thought, knights seem like our bane. What are some thoughts on army builds to deal with the giants?
Big warrior blobs guessing them from multiple directions.
If the problem is that Knights can kill large groups of our stuff... .throwing large groups of stuff at it doesn't seem smart.
Go MSU, that way even if you roll badly - there's only so much he can kill a turn.
So I'm keen as mustard to get my Necron army going. So far I've got the Tomb Awakened and Battleforce bundles. This is what I've come up with so far, as I want to plan the rest of my purchases accordingly:
Decurion
CCB - Phylactery, Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Gauntlet of Fire
Here's where I am stuck: I want to use a unit of 6 Wraiths (who doesn't!) but don't really care for the Spyder and Scarabs. I also like Deathmarks, Praetorians and Lychguard, but don't know where I could fit them in. I think the Doomscythe formation sounds good, but its damned expensive... The list above comes to 1294, and I want to keep it to 2000. How would you fill out the remaining points? Please note that I want to go silver tide, but I could drop the Warriors to 15 each to free up some points (and maybe drop a Ghost Ark and just have the one floating behind both blobs?). I'm also not averse to taking another unit of Gauss Immortals in a Nightscythe to get some more AA presence on the board.
Thanks for your suggestions.
Honestly, I'm not sure Decurion is the best way to go. You lose some list-building flexibility in that if you want to take a certain unit, others come along with it. Do they have some synergy and some good special rules? Absolutely. However, if you just want to build an army and play, I would probably recommend taking a regular Combined Arms Detachment. Most importantly, you gain objective: secured, which the Decurion does not have. So if you're playing objectives, and you don't kill the other guy's troops, he can simply withstand your firepower and win in the end. Not my kind of battle personally. And while the Decurion gives you a ton of durability, I am not convinced that it also makes you killy enough for that to be the difference maker.
That's just my two cents though. The other reason why I woudk advocate it is because then you could take what you want and not what you have to take. You can easily fit all the units you've listed in at 2k if you don't have other units that you have to take. And if you're tight on points, you could drop a GA or have someone besides the immortals ride in a night scythe. Or you can just have a Cryptek take a veil of darkness and teleport the unit (probably Lychguard) wherever you want them to go on turn on. All of your units that you want to play are good and have their uses. The only unit that I'm a little iffy on is the death marks because they only wound on 2+ the turn they come in; however they get to pop your opponent's unit before they blink so that is no small advantage either. Lots of great options.
To be honest, I think this is the first codex since Eldar that you really can say "just play what you want and it will be fine". So why limit yourself? You still get 5+ RP - that's only 16% worse in the worst case scenario. It can often be more like 6-8% of a difference if you take an armor save also.
You still get 5+ RP - that's only 16% worse in the worst case scenario. It can often be more like 6-8% of a difference if you take an armor save also.
It's 16% more to pass, but a 4+ RP vs a 5+ also means you pass a whopping 50% more of your rolls. That goes up to a 100% more vs ID wounds. Versus a single wound the difference is small, but I promise you that the effect will be noticeable over a game. I know I'll be playing decurion from now onwards
I agree with luke. Sometimes you just want to add different units and dont want to deal with prerequisites. Might start with a destroyer cult and want to add stalkers but dont have the points for praetorians. Might want obyron and a D lord for double veil action (flayed ones) and dont want a whole royal court. Wraiths without the canoptek formation.
Decurions are great and will probably be featured in about 1/3 of my lists. The buff is undeniable but sometimes list flexibility wins out.
You still get 5+ RP - that's only 16% worse in the worst case scenario. It can often be more like 6-8% of a difference if you take an armor save also.
It's 16% more to pass, but a 4+ RP vs a 5+ also means you pass a whopping 50% more of your rolls. That goes up to a 100% more vs ID wounds. Versus a single wound the difference is small, but I promise you that the effect will be noticeable over a game. I know I'll be playing decurion from now onwards
While that 50% stat is technically true for "how many more RP rolls you pass" it's also the definition of misleading statistics. Yes this is a dice game and anything can happen. And you're right - over the course of 100 shots, even 6% less unsaved wounds is not nothing. I'm merely pointing out that the difference is not as large as some people may have made it out to be. Saying that the difference is small for 1 wound and then different for a large amount of wounds is also not really true - the percentage holds the same throughout.
FWIW, I'm not saying that you won't notice the effects. I'm simply saying that I think it might be the tactically better decision to have obsec over increased durability. Because at the end of the game, I think I will more often notice that although I am alive, I can't contest any objectives. But I would love to be wrong. Decurion looks like a ton of fun and I will certainly give it a go at some point.
Math for those who care, those who don't, gloss away:
100 bolter shots vs Necron warriors:
Say they are BS 3, so 50 hits
Str 4 vs T 4, so 25 wounds
12.5 unsaved wounds (4+ armor)
6.25 failed RP (4+)
8.33 failed RP (5+)
So the difference between RP 4+ and 5+ for 100 bolter shots is 2.1 less dead Necron warriors. Again, not statistically insignificant, but nothing I plan on losing obsec over.
Automatically Appended Next Post: FWIW it becomes a difference of 4 warriors when the BS is 4
Your almost always going to be better off with obsec. Necrons still do the late game objective steal better then most armies and with out obsec your basically losing this ability.
5 immortals/10 warriors in a NS don't need +1 RP, they need obsec.
If your planning on running a lot of ground pounding warriors then I still think your better off with obsec for different reasons.
1. You have the characters and ghost arcs to make the difference laughable.
2. You have the numbers
3. Your now much slower with very limited ranged weapons, your going to need obsec to prevent other armies from stealing/contesting.
I think the Decurion can be made to work, but why bother if it requires so much effort to make work. A CAD + formationsis much more flexible and will make TAC lists better.
Oh by the way, I checked with Reese about how they are going to handle the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death for the LVO. His response was that it:
Does not roll to hit
Cannot target FMC Can target invisible units
Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat
Now, this is of course not a RAW thing - simply how they have decided to rule it for that event. IMO, I think it can be used perfectly well in all of those scenarios. Always interesting to see how different events rule things though
luke1705 wrote: Oh by the way, I checked with Reese about how they are going to handle the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death for the LVO. His response was that it:
Does not roll to hit
Cannot target FMC Can target invisible units
Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat
Now, this is of course not a RAW thing - simply how they have decided to rule it for that event. IMO, I think it can be used perfectly well in all of those scenarios. Always interesting to see how different events rule things though
My advice is to tell your opponents beforehand so that there won't be any in-game arguments because, trust me, it will happen otherwise. "WTF? You auto-hit my flyers while locked in combat?!?"
luke1705 wrote: Oh by the way, I checked with Reese about how they are going to handle the Nightbringer's Gaze of Death for the LVO. His response was that it:
Does not roll to hit
Cannot target FMC Can target invisible units
Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat
Now, this is of course not a RAW thing - simply how they have decided to rule it for that event. IMO, I think it can be used perfectly well in all of those scenarios. Always interesting to see how different events rule things though
Did he say why they were ruling it like that? I don't really see the reasoning behind the limitations, agreeing with you.
While it might not be 100% RAW, it is somewhat consistent with the rules.
"Does not roll to hit."
That one is obvious.
"Cannot target FMC."
That is consistent with attacks that do not roll to hit cannot hit flyers/FMC's.
"Can target invisible units ."
Ditto above.
"Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat ."
With the exception of not needing to roll to hit, he is obviously treating this special attack as a shooting attack. If you treat it as such, then not being able to "shoot" out of combat/into another combat is consistent with his other rulings.
jy2 wrote: While it might not be 100% RAW, it is somewhat consistent with the rules.
"Does not roll to hit."
That one is obvious.
"Cannot target FMC."
That is consistent with attacks that do not roll to hit cannot hit flyers/FMC's.
"Can target invisible units ."
Ditto above.
"Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat ."
With the exception of not needing to roll to hit, he is obviously treating this special attack as a shooting attack. If you treat it as such, then not being able to "shoot" out of combat/into another combat is consistent with his other rulings.
I'd say it's more towards 0% RAW, as Gaze of Death is a special rule invoked during the shooting phase and not a shooting attack. Obviously this has already been established, I just wanted to vent my opinion on comparing it to a shooting attack which it is not. I was also going to call you out on the "can target invisible units" being ditto'ed with "cannot hit flyers/FMC's", but I then remembered that LVO is to use an altered version of invisibility, is it not?
Formosa wrote: How do people feel that heavy bolters will do against necrons?
Depends on if you want to tailor specifically vs 'crons or try to stay TAC. In most cases you would probably be better of with autocannons, as the capability of hurting vehicles means they are way more versatile. They are also a larger threat to wraiths. I'd go for HBs if your opponent runs nothing but silver tide, but even then I'm not too sure about their overall performance.
Formosa wrote: How do people feel that heavy bolters will do against necrons?
It's good, especially if you can spam it. VoF (volume-of-fire) is what will bring down the Necrons. Heavy Bolters have the range to hurt from a safe distance as well as the strength to deal with T5 Necrons. You'll only have problems against the AV13 Necron skimmers, but I am assuming Marine armies will pack enough meltas in their armies to deal with those.
jy2 wrote: While it might not be 100% RAW, it is somewhat consistent with the rules.
"Does not roll to hit."
That one is obvious.
"Cannot target FMC."
That is consistent with attacks that do not roll to hit cannot hit flyers/FMC's.
"Can target invisible units ."
Ditto above.
"Cannot be used if locked in combat/against units locked in combat ."
With the exception of not needing to roll to hit, he is obviously treating this special attack as a shooting attack. If you treat it as such, then not being able to "shoot" out of combat/into another combat is consistent with his other rulings.
I'd say it's more towards 0% RAW, as Gaze of Death is a special rule invoked during the shooting phase and not a shooting attack. Obviously this has already been established, I just wanted to vent my opinion on comparing it to a shooting attack which it is not. I was also going to call you out on the "can target invisible units" being ditto'ed with "cannot hit flyers/FMC's", but I then remembered that LVO is to use an altered version of invisibility, is it not?
We all know that tournaments no longer follow pure RAW. However, the reasoning for his ruling is consistent, even if it isn't purely RAW.
And yes, the BAO/LVO has altered how Invisibility works, but that has nothing to do with it. Firing at Invisible units follow the same principle as firing at flying units, which is the basis of his ruling for both.
We all know that tournaments no longer follow pure RAW. However, the reasoning for his ruling is consistent, even if it isn't purely RAW.
And yes, the BAO/LVO has altered how Invisibility works, but that has nothing to do with it. Firing at Invisible units follow the same principle as firing at flying units, which is the basis of his ruling for both.
Absolutely, it is up to every TO to rule as he or she sees fit. I just don't see the reasoning behind treating it as a shooting attack, although I understand that's a decision that has been made.
It is your second point that confuses me, If you re-read what Luke stated above and you yourself quoted, the ruling is that Gaze of Death cannot target FMC but can target invisible units. It is this discrepancy that confuses me, and that's why I brought up the changed invisibility ruling as it is the only reason why you'd rule differently in these two cases.
I apologize. Within the framework of their rules, it is consistent.
They changed the rules for Invisibility such that you are NOT snap-firing at Invisible units but rather, you hit them on 6's with shooting attacks that need to roll to hit.
Thus, snap-firing at flyers -> cannot target.
Shooting at Invisible units (not snap-firing) -> can target.
This is because of how the LVO is handling invisibility. You can't auto-hit something that makes you snap fire; however the LVO is having invisibility simply make you weapon skill and ballistic skill 1 - so you can target it with templates, can hit on 5 in CC, etc. Their ruling certainly is consistent with how they have altered select other rules and I think it is a fair balance between pure RAW and the full assumption that it is a shooting attack (probably the two extremes for and against the C'tan)
I haven't had a chance to try the army out yet, but I imagine that my oppoenent will find it quite difficult trying to wipe out a scarab swarm that grows by 10 bases per turn and has 4+ RP.
That looks amazing. Just hide the Swarm Scarabs behind some scenery, bubblewrap and breed!
I haven't had a chance to try the army out yet, but I imagine that my oppoenent will find it quite difficult trying to wipe out a scarab swarm that grows by 10 bases per turn and has 4+ RP.
That looks amazing. Just hide the Swarm Scarabs behind some scenery, bubblewrap and breed!
Thanks.
The plan is for the Swarm to tarpit/destroy the biggest threat the enemy has on the board, the Immortals to camp my objectives, and for the warriors and Tomb Blades to disrupt the enemy objectives. The CAD swarms are to bubblewrap and protect the Spyders.
My regular opponents are Space Marines and Daemons, with the Daemonic MCs being the biggest issue to contend with.
Yep the biggest issues are going to be against Eldar, Nids and Tau who all have the requisite str 6+ VOF to lessen wounds on the units. But the are still fantastic fast little tarpits
Red Corsair wrote: Your almost always going to be better off with obsec. Necrons still do the late game objective steal better then most armies and with out obsec your basically losing this ability.
5 immortals/10 warriors in a NS don't need +1 RP, they need obsec.
I am a big believer in re-rolls and a 4+ re-roll following your initial failed save is huge! I think obsec is really good with NS but an army wide 4+ re-roll is slightly better.
Red Corsair wrote: If your planning on running a lot of ground pounding warriors then I still think your better off with obsec for different reasons.
1. You have the characters and ghost arcs to make the difference laughable.
The number one reason why the decurion is so good is that it helps eliminate one of the necrons weaknesses, cc. Everyone keeps saying its only 2-3 more deaths but in cc thats the difference between staying alive or dieing. Why spend points on characters when you can get the effect for a small sacrifice?
Thats why you dont need obsec because you have the numbers. Contesting and grabbing objectives is alot easier when you have multiple units and because these units are extremely durable they are even harder to get rid of.
Red Corsair wrote: 3. Your now much slower with very limited ranged weapons, your going to need obsec to prevent other armies from stealing/contesting.
My favorite unit in the codex are the tomb blades and they are very fast, my second favorite unit are the destroyers and their fast, and my third favorite unit are wraiths and they are fast, necrons can be built to be slow or really fast its the player choice.
Red Corsair wrote: I think the Decurion can be made to work, but why bother if it requires so much effort to make work. A CAD + formationsis much more flexible and will make TAC lists better.
I like the decurion because it makes the army more durable not just the warriors and immortals but, other units such as tomb blades, wraiths, and scarabs all become harder to kill. Objective secured will be a short lived advantage for your opponent because if we are both there I gurantee that the necron player will have the tools to kill whatever unit that is claiming the objective.
But...it doesn't matter if you don't die. If you don't kill all of their obsec, you lose pretty much. How does Decurion deal with drop pod spam? I think you can do like 7 in 1850 so that's 14 combat squads plus 7 drop pods. How many turns do you need to kill those? 10?
@CKO- fair enough, I find it strange that all your favorite units need the RP boost the least though. Wraiths, destroyer and TB all are either T5, multi wound, have an invuln or jink/jsj and RP 5+++ or some combo of the bunch.
Really not seeing how hamstringing yourself on set formations and heavy taxes for a 1+++ boost is worth final word on objectives at game end.
I think the Decurion can be a fun alternative if you happen to find yourself wanting the exact models your forced to take, but I'd personally rather get obsec any day of the week.
I can also say it's bold of you to think your guarenteed answers to wipe the enemy.
With illuminor and orikan you can already boost the crap out of CAD units, and they are awesome, not really seeing why you can't have the durability AND the obsec.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
luke1705 wrote: But...it doesn't matter if you don't die. If you don't kill all of their obsec, you lose pretty much. How does Decurion deal with drop pod spam? I think you can do like 7 in 1850 so that's 14 combat squads plus 7 drop pods. How many turns do you need to kill those? 10?
I have yet to see much offense in the decurian lists that are popping up. Super durable sure, but generally light on quality shooting.
I am, 5 game tourney today and tomorrow. I ended up taking the simpler list I posted first (CAD: CCB, 2 arks, 12 wraiths, 9 scarabs, 9 spyders), because keeping track of which unit belongs to the harvest and which doesn't, didn't feel like something I'd be able to do all weekend... I'll try to post a quick overview of how it went.
Well... Two points main points here: A) Scarab farm is a very powerful list and B) I can't play it for crap...
My own games are nothing worth reporting, I think I finished in the bottom third with only one major win out of five games, the rest being three narrow losses and one total defeat (it was a battle points tournament). CCB was pretty much useless, I won't be bringing it again for serious games. He's only real moment was scaring a unit of eldar jetbikes off the table with nightmare shroud's one use thingy. Otherwise the list was ok.
BUT, necrons piloted by better players did really well. The lists were something like this:
1st place
CAD Zahndrekh
Orikan
2 x 5 immortals
2 x 6 wraiths
3 scarabs
3 x 3 spyders
Harvest
6 wraiths
4 scarabs
spyder
Wraiths had some coils and a couple spiders had prisms. Orikan (and mostly Zahndrekh) were with harvest scarabs or harvest wraiths. The guy playing this list was from the Finnish ETC team.
Cult
Destroyer Lord (scythe + nightmare shroud)
3x 2 destroyers + 1 heavy
3 heavy destroyers
Orikan & destrolord joined the warriors, doing re-rollable 2+ armour shenanigans.
EDIT: One thing that makes the scarab farm more powerful than before, and hasn't been discussed here, is that you no longer need to make new scarabs at the beginning of your movement phase. The codex says just "once per friendly movement phase". Which means you can move some or all spyder units and the scarab unit before adding more bases. That opens up an unbelievable amount of options for a player who can really exploit it, up to and including a first turn charge in some cases.
Okapi wrote: How are you equipping your Tomb Blades these days? A month ago particle beamers seemed the best choice, but now I find myself considering gauss.
Personally, I'm carrying so much gauss on my warriors, immortals, and ghost arks that I prefer the Particle Beamers still.
Lychguard with a Chronometron Cryptek, even Scytheguard versions, are tougher than Terminators and also 15 points cheaper.
T5 > T4
3+ with a 4+ RP is statistically the same as 2+
5++ with a 4+ RP is much better than a 5++, though not usable in Assault.
~~~Corollary, in Assault against AP2 weapons they still get 4+ RP, which is better than the Terminator's 5++
Throw in Orikan and they can reroll Armor/Invuln/Cover saves of 1
Put them in a Decurion with the Overlord in their squad and they reroll RP of 1
Those two aside, if you take 10 and just count the Chronometron Cryptek as a squad upgrade rather than a character, that's 34ppm for better Assault Terminators with Warscythes, which Assault Marines only wish they had.
The issue they have is getting to anything to fight. With only a 6" move, they're obviously lacking in the mobility of something like Praetorians or Wraiths. To combat this, Varguard Obyron is a proper choice. He's a souped up Scytheguard with a teleport. However, it's unreliable.
Next thought: Obyron's interaction with Zahndrekh's Ghostwalk Mantle solves this. However, the problem is getting Zahndrekh forward enough for the 12" bubble to be worthwhile. To solve this, there are a couple options.
1) Start Zahndrekh at the very edge of your deployment zone. Turn 1, walk him forward 6", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of him, run Obyron. Obyron is now 18+" from your deployment zone turn 1, an early movement that even Wraiths are jealous of.
2) Put Zahndrekh in a Ghost Ark. Start it near the edge of your deployment zone, move Cruising Speed up 12", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of that, run Oybron. 24+" movement turn 1, in the enemy's deployment zone, threatening a Turn 2 charge with Warscythes.
3) Hold Obyron back until Turn 2, letting Zahndrekh move up into a better position, hope for a Turn 3 charge.
3 is safest, 1 is easiest, 2 is most threatening but also the most dangerous. Since you can't put Zahndrekh in the Ghost Ark with Warrirors (min size 10 now), he'd be in there alone, or at best, with a Lord or Cryptek.
Here's a possible list that could make all that work:
Spoiler:
CAD Overlord with Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Warriors x10
Immortals x5
10x Lychguard
Ghost Ark
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
1030 points. Plenty of room for adding in support and upgrades
Decurion Version:
Spoiler:
Reclamation Legion Overlord w/ Warscythe
Warriors x10
Warriors x10 w/ Ghost Ark
Immortals x 5
Lychguard x10
Tomb Blades x3
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Aux Deathmarks x5
1199. Gives the durability to the army, but would still need to invest more points on upgrades to make the Tomb Blades worthwhile and probably some other vehicles.
Can even add in Orikan to the mix to make it a very scary deathball, and maybe even a Solar Staff. However, while this delivery system is very powerful, it still has the issues of reaching the target.
While the squad still only has a 6" movement, if you can finish turn 1 at 1" away from an enemy unit, you still have an all but guaranteed turn 2 charge. Say you want to target a bike squad
Enemy Turn 1: Move forward
Your Turn 1: Teleport 1" away, run to spread out around them.
Enemy Turn 2: Move 12" away, shoot
Your Turn 2: Move 6" forward. Depending on how you were able to run and surround them, you should have a 6-7" charge, which is a 50/50 of getting in.
Against something with a 6" move, it's basically impossible for them to get away. If a 12" move model uses it's shooting phase to run/flat out/etc, you can't catch them, but then they basically wasted a whole turn running away from you, allowing you to move to the next target or onto an objective.
The version of this that uses Shield Lychguard doesn't require a Chronometron Cryptek, but lacks the AP2 Armorbane punch.
Lychguard with a Chronometron Cryptek, even Scytheguard versions, are tougher than Terminators and also 15 points cheaper.
T5 > T4
3+ with a 4+ RP is statistically the same as 2+
5++ with a 4+ RP is much better than a 5++, though not usable in Assault.
~~~Corollary, in Assault against AP2 weapons they still get 4+ RP, which is better than the Terminator's 5++
Throw in Orikan and they can reroll Armor/Invuln/Cover saves of 1
Put them in a Decurion with the Overlord in their squad and they reroll RP of 1
Those two aside, if you take 10 and just count the Chronometron Cryptek as a squad upgrade rather than a character, that's 34ppm for better Assault Terminators with Warscythes, which Assault Marines only wish they had.
The issue they have is getting to anything to fight. With only a 6" move, they're obviously lacking in the mobility of something like Praetorians or Wraiths. To combat this, Varguard Obyron is a proper choice. He's a souped up Scytheguard with a teleport. However, it's unreliable.
Next thought: Obyron's interaction with Zahndrekh's Ghostwalk Mantle solves this. However, the problem is getting Zahndrekh forward enough for the 12" bubble to be worthwhile. To solve this, there are a couple options.
1) Start Zahndrekh at the very edge of your deployment zone. Turn 1, walk him forward 6", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of him, run Obyron. Obyron is now 18+" from your deployment zone turn 1, an early movement that even Wraiths are jealous of.
2) Put Zahndrekh in a Ghost Ark. Start it near the edge of your deployment zone, move Cruising Speed up 12", teleport Obyron 12" ahead of that, run Oybron. 24+" movement turn 1, in the enemy's deployment zone, threatening a Turn 2 charge with Warscythes.
3) Hold Obyron back until Turn 2, letting Zahndrekh move up into a better position, hope for a Turn 3 charge.
3 is safest, 1 is easiest, 2 is most threatening but also the most dangerous. Since you can't put Zahndrekh in the Ghost Ark with Warrirors (min size 10 now), he'd be in there alone, or at best, with a Lord or Cryptek.
Here's a possible list that could make all that work:
Spoiler:
CAD Overlord with Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Warriors x10
Immortals x5
10x Lychguard
Ghost Ark
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
1030 points. Plenty of room for adding in support and upgrades
Decurion Version:
Spoiler:
Reclamation Legion Overlord w/ Warscythe
Warriors x10
Warriors x10 w/ Ghost Ark
Immortals x 5
Lychguard x10
Tomb Blades x3
Royal Court Zahndrekh
Obyron
Cryptek w/ Chronometron
Aux Deathmarks x5
1199. Gives the durability to the army, but would still need to invest more points on upgrades to make the Tomb Blades worthwhile and probably some other vehicles.
Can even add in Orikan to the mix to make it a very scary deathball, and maybe even a Solar Staff. However, while this delivery system is very powerful, it still has the issues of reaching the target.
While the squad still only has a 6" movement, if you can finish turn 1 at 1" away from an enemy unit, you still have an all but guaranteed turn 2 charge. Say you want to target a bike squad
Enemy Turn 1: Move forward
Your Turn 1: Teleport 1" away, run to spread out around them.
Enemy Turn 2: Move 12" away, shoot
Your Turn 2: Move 6" forward. Depending on how you were able to run and surround them, you should have a 6-7" charge, which is a 50/50 of getting in.
Against something with a 6" move, it's basically impossible for them to get away. If a 12" move model uses it's shooting phase to run/flat out/etc, you can't catch them, but then they basically wasted a whole turn running away from you, allowing you to move to the next target or onto an objective.
The version of this that uses Shield Lychguard doesn't require a Chronometron Cryptek, but lacks the AP2 Armorbane punch.
Another option is putting Zandrekh in a NS for deeper precision striking for Obyron.
Yes, but the idea is to get him across turn 1 and then Turn 2 charge. Scythes don't come in until turn 2, maybe, which means the assault only deathball can't get a charge until turn 3 at the earliest.
Wraiths, scarabs, and Praetorians are designed for Turn 2 charges -- Lychguard simply are not. You can put a lot of bells and whistles into a list to help them try to attempt that goal, but honestly you're probably better off saving the points and just buying them a night scythe. They can use invasion beams to practically deep strike with no scatter on turn 2, and depending on objective placement have a pretty certain turn 3 charge or at worst, play goalkeeper to an important area of the battlefield and score points through positional dominance.
Requizen wrote: Yes, but the idea is to get him across turn 1 and then Turn 2 charge. Scythes don't come in until turn 2, maybe, which means the assault only deathball can't get a charge until turn 3 at the earliest.
I like death balls of Orikan, a couple of lords with ws and flamers, and an Overlord (possibly Zandrekh?) with ws and flamer cruising in a GA and taking advantage of both its open-topped nature and its assault capablities.
Obyron could be attached to a unit of FO, LG, or even wraiths while Zandrekh rolls with the other deathball.
Requizen wrote: Yes, but the idea is to get him across turn 1 and then Turn 2 charge. Scythes don't come in until turn 2, maybe, which means the assault only deathball can't get a charge until turn 3 at the earliest.
I like death balls of Orikan, a couple of lords with ws and flamers, and an Overlord (possibly Zandrekh?) with ws and flamer cruising in a GA and taking advantage of both its open-topped nature and its assault capablities.
Obyron could be attached to a unit of FO, LG, or even wraiths while Zandrekh rolls with the other deathball.
I've looked at making Royal Court "deathballs" work too, but they just get so expensive. 50 for a Lord, not taking into account upgrades and artifacts, is going to end up being way more expensive than any thing with that few units has any right being. I mean, sure it'll be strong, lots of AP3 shooting, Flamers, Warscythes, you can take 4++, you can take 2+, etc... but I mean, that's a lot of points for something that will probably be no more than 5-7 models, max.
Another idea, something a bit different. Imotekh is very interesting to me. Staff of the Destroyer is a great gun, and if you can drop him in the middle of a gunline his Lord of the Storm shooting has a chance to really cut a chunk out of enemy lines. This would be more of a "shooting deathball" than something that charges and kills everything.
Imotekh the Stormlord
Lychguard x5 with Shields
Lord with Gauntlet of the Conflagrator and Warscythe
440 points. Would need to pop it in a Scythe, but I don't really consider that part of the squad since it's plenty good on its own. Lands, S7 AP2 Template, S6 AP2 Assault 3 gun, surrounded by Shieldguard. They can then eat a bunch of shooting, and as long as they're not charging a Knight, they'll probably kill anything that charges them/they charge next turn. Beef it up by adding Orikan for more AP2 attacks/4+++/rerolls.
Requizen wrote: I don't particularly think Wraiths need a teleport bomb, they're already fast enough as it is, especially with how they ignore cover.
Right. The list above just gives you that tactical option.
Obyron could deepstrike in with the Flayed Ones and then pop his Ghost Mantle to hit another target once the first target gets shredded by the cuisuinarts of death..
I like the GA as an delivery platform for a royal court with Zandrekh in there.
Deep strike is a USR that an IC attached to a unit will inherit. It's the same deal as the old Veiltek attached to Deathmarks.
This statement is patently false.
I stand corrected. Got confused by the similar case of the old Veiltek deathmark combo, but I guess that works via NS or walking in from reserves and Veiling instead of walking and you had unlimited use of the veil.
So you could do the same with Obyron by Ghostmantling instead of walking in from reserves, but that just wastes his 1 use. However, if Zandrekh has moved to where you want him by then, that would benefit from being a surgically accurate deep strike. So some benefit.
Requizen wrote: Sadly, Obyron doesn't have Deep Strike natively and the Ghostwalk Mantle doesn't grant it to him, so he can't do that :\
Deep strike is a USR that an IC attached to a unit will inherit. It's the same deal as the old Veiltek attached to Deathmarks.
No, Deepstrike is not inherited. ALL models in the unit must be able to DS in order for the unit to DS.
The Veil, however, is an exception in that it allows the bearer and the unit he is in to DS. The Ghostwalk Mantle functions the same as the Veil in that it allows Obyron and his unit to DS onto the table.
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.
Ghaz wrote: From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.
Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.
However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.
Ghaz wrote: From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.
Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.
However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.
Why would you do that though? If you want to use his Ghostwalk Mantle and deep strike them near Zahndrekh, just keep them way in the back of the table or in ruins or something way out of the way and then use it when it's ready. There's nothing more frustrating than failing reserves until turn 4.
Ghaz wrote: From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.
Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.
However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.
Why would you do that though? If you want to use his Ghostwalk Mantle and deep strike them near Zahndrekh, just keep them way in the back of the table or in ruins or something way out of the way and then use it when it's ready. There's nothing more frustrating than failing reserves until turn 4.
Denying the opponent a target (in the case of for example a board layout with minimum terrain and the opponent having the ability to hit that unit at long range). It's not necessarily a tactical avenue you will take that often but nonetheless it is still there.
I am, 5 game tourney today and tomorrow. I ended up taking the simpler list I posted first (CAD: CCB, 2 arks, 12 wraiths, 9 scarabs, 9 spyders), because keeping track of which unit belongs to the harvest and which doesn't, didn't feel like something I'd be able to do all weekend... I'll try to post a quick overview of how it went.
Well... Two points main points here: A) Scarab farm is a very powerful list and B) I can't play it for crap...
My own games are nothing worth reporting, I think I finished in the bottom third with only one major win out of five games, the rest being three narrow losses and one total defeat (it was a battle points tournament). CCB was pretty much useless, I won't be bringing it again for serious games. He's only real moment was scaring a unit of eldar jetbikes off the table with nightmare shroud's one use thingy. Otherwise the list was ok.
BUT, necrons piloted by better players did really well. The lists were something like this:
1st place
CAD Zahndrekh
Orikan
2 x 5 immortals
2 x 6 wraiths
3 scarabs
3 x 3 spyders
Harvest
6 wraiths
4 scarabs
spyder
Wraiths had some coils and a couple spiders had prisms. Orikan (and mostly Zahndrekh) were with harvest scarabs or harvest wraiths. The guy playing this list was from the Finnish ETC team.
Cult
Destroyer Lord (scythe + nightmare shroud)
3x 2 destroyers + 1 heavy
3 heavy destroyers
Orikan & destrolord joined the warriors, doing re-rollable 2+ armour shenanigans.
EDIT: One thing that makes the scarab farm more powerful than before, and hasn't been discussed here, is that you no longer need to make new scarabs at the beginning of your movement phase. The codex says just "once per friendly movement phase". Which means you can move some or all spyder units and the scarab unit before adding more bases. That opens up an unbelievable amount of options for a player who can really exploit it, up to and including a first turn charge in some cases.
Can you go a little indepth on this as I think I know how he's doing it.
He starts the spyders and Scarabs both at the limit of the deployment, then moves the Spyders forward then adds to the unit behind him which means the extra scarabs get added to the front of the unit , so that when the scarabs move thy actually have moved up 18 inches or more depending on how many adds.
So Spyders all move in front of Scarabs 6inches, then start placing the Scarab adds behind them until their bases reach to where the Spyders are , then the whole Scarab squad moves with the front members of the squad being forward by 6 inches.
That's how he's doing it right?
The front newly made scarabs move 12" inches forward so they'd actually be 14 to 22 inches in front of your board edge., which would put them 6inches to 10 inches away from the front of your opponents deployment.
This is a really good tactic, that's a first turn charge. I'll draw it out in example form.
Ghaz wrote: From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.
Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.
However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.
Where is the restriction against charging after using the Ghostwalk mantle ?
Ghaz wrote: From 'Deep Strike' in the main rulebook:
In order for a unit to be able to Deep Strike, all models in the unit must have the Deep Strike special rule and the unit must start the game in Reserve.
Deep Strike does not confer to an Independent Character simply by being in a unit that consists of models with the rule. The Independent Character must have the rule himself.
Yes. As I noted above. I stand corrected.
However, you could have the Flayed Ones in regular reserves and use Obyron's Ghost Mantle instead of walking in from reserves and benefit from an accurate Zandrekh placement at that time. Not too bad. But you don't get to cheat a second deep strike movement out of it.
Where is the restriction against charging after using the Ghostwalk mantle ?
It specifically calls it Deep Strike, so you can't.
I'm putting together my 9 tomb blades and I'm unsure how to arm them best. Either all gauss or a split of gauss and particle beamers. I originally was going to go all gauss and run them as a squad of 9 however If I drop 1 I can run two squads of 4 and have both the gauss and the particle Beamer options however at that point the squads seem a bit small. Any thoughts? Or have I missed a discussion earlier in the thread about this?
aceytrixx wrote: I'm putting together my 9 tomb blades and I'm unsure how to arm them best. Either all gauss or a split of gauss and particle beamers. I originally was going to go all gauss and run them as a squad of 9 however If I drop 1 I can run two squads of 4 and have both the gauss and the particle Beamer options however at that point the squads seem a bit small. Any thoughts? Or have I missed a discussion earlier in the thread about this?
Gauss is the better option, but you want to make sure you have enough crowd control weapons in the whole list. So add as many particle beamers as needed to cover that hole if there is one.
The core of my list is 3x20 warriors with ghost arks, Lord and 5 immortals in a night scythe then either the canoptek harvest or deathbringer flight depending what I feel like playing. Or both in some larger games.
Had my first game last night with the new Necrons against... Necrons! - 2000 points
I ran;
Destroyer cult;
1 x Destroyer Lord
2 x Destroyers, 1 x HD 2 x Destroyers, 1 x HD 2 x Destroyers, 1 x HD 3 x Heavy Destroyers
CAD;
Orikan
5 x Immortals in a NS 5 x Immortals in a NS 10 x Warriors in Ghost ark
10 x Warriors in Ghost ark
5 x Lychguard w/ swords and shields
1 x Lord w/ warscythe and Veil of Darkness
He ran a Decurion with a Judicator Battalion, Star god and an Annihiliation nexus. Also had a ghost ark and a NS.
No wraiths!! I won on objectives around 3 to 9 (8 + first blood).
Synopsis;
(cant remember the game type it was a #1 on the chart with 3 x objectives each turn) Not having objective secured really hurt him this game, he also didn't have many fast moving opportunities to score objectives over my Obj secured immortals and deep striking destroyers. The Ctan (still a walking bullet magnet) died to VOF from the warriors for first blood and the AB's died to a number of shots from the HD's and the NS. I didn't actually manage to kill allot of his units/models but I controlled the game with my movement. Orikan and his Lychguard didn't come on till turn #3 and were out of the action for basically the whole game (should of started them on the board not in reserves I think). Im trying to think of what died but really not much! I lost a night scythe to warriors rapid firing and a ghost ark but that's about it.. talk about hard to kill!
Things I noticed;
1. The mix of heavy and normal destroyers is very good but I did find myself wanting to shoot the HD's at targets the normal destroyers couldn't hurt which wasted some shooting.
2. Small unit's of distraction destroyers deep striking onto objectives is awesome. Really breaks up the enemy's attack and being able to JSJ away makes destroyers able to move really well around the board.
3. I didn't really have any where to put the Destroyer lord.. I had him deep strike by himself. Next time im thinking I should put him in the Orikan unit as a caddy for the Veil of Darkness instead of the Lord.
4. Decurion Necrons are super tough! a unit of 10 x warriors held up my lone destroyer lord for 3 x turns (until game end). The combination of LD 10 and 4++ means you won't be sweeping warriors as easily as before. They may be a very good tar pit unit now?
Tomb Blades have three equal cost upgrades, so you can price them for two upgrades and just play 'em as best suited for different foes without any prior thought into shifting the list around.
Against Eldar, Tau and Vehicle Spam? Nebuloscopes and Shield Vanes. Gauss, ignores cover pierces 4+ and denies jink to skimmers.
Against Marines? Shield Vanes and Particle Beamers. AP4 ignores cover is useless against 3+ armour, but massed S6 templates should force failed saves.
Hordes? Particle Beamers and Nebuloscopes. You lose some durability, but ought to thin out those mobs with weak saves very quickly.
changemod wrote: Tomb Blades have three equal cost upgrades, so you can price them for two upgrades and just play 'em as best suited for different foes without any prior thought into shifting the list around.
Against Eldar, Tau and Vehicle Spam? Nebuloscopes and Shield Vanes. Gauss, ignores cover pierces 4+ and denies jink to skimmers.
Against Marines? Shield Vanes and Particle Beamers. AP4 ignores cover is useless against 3+ armour, but massed S6 templates should force failed saves.
Hordes? Particle Beamers and Nebuloscopes. You lose some durability, but ought to thin out those mobs with weak saves very quickly.
groups of 5 TB is optimal, so 5 of one weapon loadout and 5 of another weapon load is a good plan.
Because of the changes made to the Spyders and you can produce Spyders whenever you want during the phase :
Scarab Hive: Once per friendly Movement phase, each Canoptek Spyder can use this special rule to create Canoptek Scarabs. To do so, nominate a friendly unit of Canoptek Scarabs that is within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. Add a single Canoptek Scarab base to the unit – this can take the unit beyond its starting size, but must be placed within 6" of the Canoptek Spyder. If a model cannot be placed for any reason, it is destroyed. Canoptek Scarabs created in this manner can move and act normally this turn.
So anyone let me know if this is unclear.
Sorry for the typos I wrote it really quick, yes I know there are misspellings but the Photoshop doesn't have a spell check and my computer crashes for whatever reason if I use Photoshop for to long so I worked fast.
It should say Closest Scarab not Spyder. Sorry for the confusion. I uploaded the incorrect one
So yeah by placing them and using the movement rules and movement of the Spyders you can most certainly add more scarabs way outside your deployment zone as long as you move one squad first and start the chain going.
You can then move the whole Scarab squad forward and be able to charge your opponent on the first turn.
It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.
This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.
Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.
Hollismason wrote: Is that confusing? I am worried it's not clear what's happening.
Cheese?
Assault cheese is the best cheese.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.
This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.
Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.
I'd rather have a D Lord and Orikan in there for their crazay mob buffs.
Hollismason wrote: It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.
This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.
Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.
This is a good strategy to lock your characters into assault, however, your characters wont be able to attack until Turn 2 at the earliest. They still have to cover alot of ground with 3" pile ins. If you dont get a good charge roll, then the characters will lag behind.
Yep scarab farm is real again and may be the most reliable first turn charge mechanic. Something else that should be noted:
MOA. Infiltrate the Spyders. You can do 3 squads and chain up the scarabs to move up. Best case scenario, you could probably get a 6-8 inch charge, even with decently conservative deployment by your opponent because all three Spyder squads could infiltrate. Mathematically, you could infiltrate 18" away from the enemy and get a scarab 12" from the deployment zone before the scarabs move (even with only two Spyder squads). Then the charge becomes a game of "how far back my opponent deploys is how long my charge range is". Especially in Dawn of War deployment, first turn charge will be a real thing because the back of their deployment zone is 12" from the front, meaning it's near impossible not to have a potential charge
Attach a D- Lord to the unit then just issue a Challenge that will absolutely move you forward unless they decline.
The max range you can get on poopin out Scarabs is gonna be 12 inces away from the front of your deployment zone, so at least 1 Scarab with be on the deployment line of your opponent on turn 1.
Now that Scarabs can hurt well anything , that's pretty amazing.
Also there is no restriction for CC, so you can just multi charge, then run your spyders forward and move again on the first turn. You should still be in range of the lag behinds from the Scarab squad to keep adding more.
You don't need 3 units of Spyders either 2 units of 3 and a 7th from the Harvest is all you need to get the Scarabs in there are on the first turn.
Give the Spyders particle beamers and only go with a 6 man Scarab squad from the Harvest , then 6 Spyders, spyders are not schlumps in CC.
Hollismason wrote: Attach a D- Lord to the unit then just issue a Challenge that will absolutely move you forward unless they decline.
The max range you can get on poopin out Scarabs is gonna be 12 inces away from the front of your deployment zone, so at least 1 Scarab with be on the deployment line of your opponent on turn 1.
Now that Scarabs can hurt well anything , that's pretty amazing.
Also there is no restriction for CC, so you can just multi charge, then run your spyders forward and move again on the first turn. You should still be in range of the lag behinds from the Scarab squad to keep adding more.
You don't need 3 units of Spyders either 2 units of 5 and a 7th from the Harvest is all you need to get the Scarabs in there are on the first turn.
Hollismason wrote: It should put at least 5 to 6 Scarab units with in charge range, once you charge you get another pile in. You can sling shot characters and all kinds of mess into your opponents deployment zone on the first turn.
This can also be used with the Canoptek Harvest Formation, really easily then you'd have 19 Scarabs with Reanimation Protocol Prancing around your opponents army.
Add a Cryptek with Solar Staff and a Cronometron to the mix, keep him at the back of the unit as they all move forward then activate the staff at the beginning of your opponents turn if you didn't get a charge off.
This is a good strategy to lock your characters into assault, however, your characters wont be able to attack until Turn 2 at the earliest. They still have to cover alot of ground with 3" pile ins. If you dont get a good charge roll, then the characters will lag behind.
It should be noted that sometimes you want your IC getting there on turn 2, like when you charge an IK and you want to stay clear of turn 1 Stomps.
Hollismason wrote: Attach a D- Lord to the unit then just issue a Challenge that will absolutely move you forward unless they decline.
The max range you can get on poopin out Scarabs is gonna be 12 inces away from the front of your deployment zone, so at least 1 Scarab with be on the deployment line of your opponent on turn 1.
Now that Scarabs can hurt well anything , that's pretty amazing.
Also there is no restriction for CC, so you can just multi charge, then run your spyders forward and move again on the first turn. You should still be in range of the lag behinds from the Scarab squad to keep adding more.
You don't need 3 units of Spyders either 2 units of 3 and a 7th from the Harvest is all you need to get the Scarabs in there are on the first turn.
Give the Spyders particle beamers and only go with a 6 man Scarab squad from the Harvest , then 6 Spyders, spyders are not schlumps in CC.
You cannot challenge that far out. You have to be engaged.
Neat gimmick, a decent way to tie up something turn 1. But of course, depending on your charge roll you're only going to have like 1-3 bases in actual combat range, so it really is nothing but a tarpit. Funny, but actually using it is just kinda silly.
Requizen wrote: Neat gimmick, a decent way to tie up something turn 1. But of course, depending on your charge roll you're only going to have like 1-3 bases in actual combat range, so it really is nothing but a tarpit. Funny, but actually using it is just kinda silly.
Possible multi charge an Ad lance formation? with RP 4++ endless bases of scarabs? maybe?
Honestly just sending a unit of 10 to 12 Scarabs to harass two units along with having infiltrating Flayed Ones and the back up squad of Wraiths is going to be pretty nice. I dunno.
It's a good tactic and you can do with as few as 4 Spyders to get them 8 inches forward out of the deployment.
That'd put them 4 inches away from the opponents deployment zone. I just wouldn't use it for like " This is my total strategy type army base"
That's some nasty sh*t there with the scarab-farm 1st turn charge.
HOWEVER, a word of caution to tournament-go'ers. I have a feeling that tournaments (like the ITC, who is generally more conservative with its rulings) may FAQ it such that scarabs are spawned from the original unit, just like it was pre-7th.
Requizen wrote: Neat gimmick, a decent way to tie up something turn 1. But of course, depending on your charge roll you're only going to have like 1-3 bases in actual combat range, so it really is nothing but a tarpit. Funny, but actually using it is just kinda silly.
Possible multi charge an Ad lance formation? with RP 4++ endless bases of scarabs? maybe?
RP doesn't matter against Knights. And a conga line like that is just asking to be Stomped out of combat range. I personally don't see Scarabs as a good tarpit to Knights, honestly.
jy2 wrote: That's some nasty sh*t there with the scarab-farm 1st turn charge.
HOWEVER, a word of caution to tournament-go'ers. I have a feeling that tournaments (like the ITC, who is generally more conservative with its rulings) may FAQ it such that scarabs are spawned from the original unit, just like it was pre-7th.
This doesnt make sense. The scarabs are from the scarab unit.
He means placing Scarabs with in 2" of the original Scarab units not the ones that you create. Even though it explicitly works this way now and makes a 1st turn charge with them even more likely some tourney's have ruled that the newly created scarabs be placed near the original squad previously in 6th edition.
Now though you absolutely 100% can pretty easily with just 2 to 5 Spyders get a first turn charge with your Scarabs because of the way you can now produce them at any point as I illustrated.
You have a unit of scarabs lined up at your deployment edge. 1 spyder spawns a scarab in coherency 2" forward. The next spyder spawns another one 2" ahead of him.. The 3rd spyder repeats the process. As long as the new bases are within 6" of the spawning spyder and in coherency with the scarabs you can chain forward. Each new spawn + coherency gets you almost 3.5" across the board. 3 new scarabs is about 10" into the neutral zone. Then you move the scarabs 12" forward. Now your front base is only 2" from the enemy deployment zone.
Basically because you can create scarabs any point during the movement phase you can move your spyders first, then create the Scarabs with in 2" of the initial scarab unit but outside of your deployment zone. If you have 3 spyders, then the last Scarab that squad creates will be 6" forward out of your deployment zone.
You then move the other unit of Spyders 6" forward and add to the Scarabs that are outside of your deployment zone. So the first Scarab you place is 8" away from your deployment zone because he is placed with in 2" of the last scarab the previous spyder squad created, the 2nd is 10" outside of your deployment zone, the 3rd is 12" outside of your deployment zone.
The furthest you can create a Scarab though is 12" away from your deployment zone edge, because the Spyders move 6.
Then finally you move the Scarabs, so the further Scarab outside of your deployment zone is now since they move 12" is 1 to 4" away from the edge of your opponents deployment zone. Since your opponents deployment zone is only 12" you are probably going to be able to get a charge on something.
KiloFiX wrote: What's everyone's thoughts on a good ratio of Whips vs Beamers for Wraiths?
Assuming a Harvest Formation with Relentless.
I'm not really sold on the beamers for wraiths. Every turn they're shooting is a turn they're not running to get closer to combat. We have other units that can shoot well. Wraiths are the assault hammer.
That being said, if you are set on having the beamers, I would probably take a squad of entirely beamers and let a different squad have the whips. Becuase every whip wraith that isn't running is sad, and of course you're not going to run the beamers. Compartmentalize the units and make sure that they can each accomplish their own purpose optimally
S4 AP2 Heavy 1 12"
6s to Wound auto wound and ID 6s to Pen auto Penetrate
It's a solid gun, basically a Gauss type weapon on steroids but only half range (not a big deal considering the Wraith's movement). It basically threatens any target on the table, and I think it's better than Whip Coils overall.
Any vehicle that isn't a walker or land raider is easily torn to pieces by wraiths in cc.
A zooming flyer would be hilarious if wraiths took a sky fire nexus.
1 in 3 with a beamer won't slow cc down much or wreck charges with excessive killing in the shooting phase. I think the main perk is as a threat to mc.
Can I take a Ghost Ark from fast attack, a royal court formation w obryn or a veil, load some warriors and all the other royal court into the Ark on turn 1 and DS the Ark with them?
To be clear, to my knowledge the tournament winner I was talking about never actually used that first turn charge trick with his scarabs. When he told me about it, he's take on it was that it's usually not a good idea as you're likely to lose the scarabs after that as the spyders can't keep up and the unit isn't large enough yet to survive a round of shooting.
Spiders can always make scarabs into other units of scarabs on following turns.
The turn 1 charge is a gimmick. it's transparency obvious to knowledgeable opponents and should hit only what an opponent allows it to hit. The scarabs leave the spiders rp radius and are vulnerable to an opponent's turn 1 counter charge.
A good opponent won't feed the scarabs a yummy unit for the turn 1 charge.
All of that being said the threat of the turn 1 charge is worth more than the charge. Opponents are forced to deploy differently and can be intimidated into always trying to take the 1st turn.
Here's a question, guys, do you think Necrons can benefit at all from Dark Eldar allies (or vice versa)? If so, what DE stuff do you think would most benefit Necrons?
vipoid wrote: Here's a question, guys, do you think Necrons can benefit at all from Dark Eldar allies (or vice versa)? If so, what DE stuff do you think would most benefit Necrons?
Dark Eldar are all about hitting hard and fast... Which with Wraiths and Tomb Blades Necrons can already do. Other way around though, you can definitely add some highly durable units to a fragile Dark Eldar army.
If I was going to ally any Eldar right now though, it'd be the new Harlequin formation with two units of skyweavers and a Voidweaver, which would grant back the Haywire lost from our list with the absence of the Harbinger of the Storm.
Heck, maybe even convert up flying platforms for existing Storm Harbinger models, if you went to the bother of converting them up before. Skyweavers might be too good in combat for accurate representation... But hey, who says the Harbinger is striking three times at I6? Maybe he's just ramming his flying buzzsaw platform into people.
Dark Eldar are all about hitting hard and fast... Which with Wraiths and Tomb Blades Necrons can already do. Other way around though, you can definitely add some highly durable units to a fragile Dark Eldar army.
Which Necron units do you think would add the most to a DE army then?
If I was going to ally any Eldar right now though, it'd be the new Harlequin formation with two units of skyweavers and a Voidweaver, which would grant back the Haywire lost from our list with the absence of the Harbinger of the Storm.
Fair enough, I was asking about DE because they're the only eldar I own, and I thought it might be nice to use them with Necrons at some point.
Speaking of allies, there might really be some potential in taking a Tau buffmander with Zahndrekh-led Necrons. Copying Tank Hunters for a big warrior unit sounds cool. Plus Hit & Run might be pretty powerful if Orikan is in the same unit, since his empowered initiative is 4. Split Fire is also available from Tau, as is Stealth if you really want it. Allying with Tau also makes more sense than before, since Necrons aren't as good at spamming S7 shooting anymore, and could really benefit from having some missile pods.
And before anyone asks: Yes, allies of convenience count as enemy models.
In a similar manner to the Buff Commander, some have suggested taking Zahndrekh with a Tau Firebase Support Cadre -- it's less versatile than the Buff commander, but still gives Tank Hunters, and comes with lots of high strength long ranged shots.
I don't know the proper points and gear for the Cadre, but it's possible to do something like this in 1850:
Decurion:
Legion:
Zahndrekh
Min Immortals
Min TB Large blocks of Warriors
Judicator Battalion
Tau Firebase Support Cadre
This allows you to get the awesomeness of effective BS10 Tank Hunters shots from the warrior blobs starting T2 -- Zahndrekh takes the reroll 1s for shooting trait, and you're at BS5 because of the Triarch Stalker. It's got some weaknesses -- still short ranged, you probably can only fit a single stalker into the list, so a single point of failure there, but it's a whole lot of really good survivable shooting, plus a bit of counterassault in the Praetorians.
How often do you guys play armies that dont have any dedicated CC units? I don't really want to use wraits because I already have 2 fast CC armies. Necrons were my shooting army.
I still havent bought the book because I am unsure on them. Here is something I tossed together.
Honestly though, I feel like I should just use CAD mostly though. I would rather have a doomscythe and a nighsctyhe, rather than 2 doomscythes.
Another list I threw together, to try more of a footslogging horde type list. I have plenty of models so why not.
Lord with res orb
20 warriors
10 warriors in ghost ark
10 warriors in ghost ark
10 immortals in night scythe
10 immortals in night scythe
5 tomb blades, shield, scope, beamers
On that horde list I'd drop the immortals to 5 each and have zahndrekh + orikan as HQs, unless you dislike named characters. They make that 20 warrior unit damn near unkillable and zahndrekh is just generally really useful. Assuming you'd do it as a CAD, since you can't have just orikan in a decurion, you'd have to take a court.
changemod wrote: Took a glance over Kill Team options, and making a single Destroyer a specialist with the Ignores Cover ability just seems brutal now.
Can't take 2+ armour in Kill Team, so he could basically pick someone to die every turn then jump out of sight.
Fill up remaining space with Warriors and Flayed Ones and you're done.
Could just take 5 destroyers.....
They can murder anything with AP3 and zip around the board to claim the objectives.
Zahndrekh leading a squad of 5 Destroyers + 1 Heavy
Allied in Cadre Fireblade leading Fire Warriors
Destroyers jump move is much more limited, but they gain Split Fire for their Heavy Destroyer. Now you have a very tough bodyguard unit for your Warlord, which also has good shooting potential (against two different units!) and if taken as part of a Cult is even more deadly.
The Fire Warriors are nothing special, but do bring the volume of fire that makes them not worthless, especially with the Cadre Fireblade's support.
Here's an idea:
Necron CAD Zahndrekh
10x Immortals, Night Scythe
10x Immortals, Night Scythe
Destroyer Cult Destroyer Lord, Phase Shifter and Warscythe
3x Destroyers
3x Destroyers
5x Destroyers, 1x Heavy
3x Heavy Destroyers
Tau Allies Cadre Fireblade
12x Fire Warriors, Shas'ui with Markerlights
1738 total. Zahndrekh joins the big Destroyer group, DLord joins one of the others.
Room for upgrades, Drones, or Heavy Destroyers in the 3Destroyer squads. Could drop some Immortals for more points too. Zahndrekh + Cadre Fireblade + Heavies make a good gunline while the 3 man squads move up into better positions, and Flyers for anti-air.
Honestly when you look at the point values for the Praetorians, they do add ST6 shooting over what the Wraiths offer and give you a "jack of all trades" unit. 10 ST6 Shots isn't nothing to laugh off but should I just go with a Judicator Battalion and a Canoptek Harvest as my formations?
I'd probably just keep the rod of the covenant. Not a ton of AP 2 shooting with Necrons. Assuming you're running Decurion by the way? Or do you just not need to abide by the two source restriction?
Anyhow, that looks like a solid collection of assault units. I might try to get a veil of darkness for the flayed ones unit. Plus you can buff them up pretty nicely. Throw in a res orb D Lord and a Cryptek with the veil and you're really cooking and super durable. I think scarabs are good versatile units as well. Might add a couple bases to the harvest unit or have a second unit in the army comp
luke1705 wrote: I'd probably just keep the rod of the covenant. Not a ton of AP 2 shooting with Necrons. Assuming you're running Decurion by the way? Or do you just not need to abide by the two source restriction?
Agreed on the Rods. AP2 shooting is rather scarce with Crons, and Praetorians being actually usable now is rather handy.
If you're planning on Assault Necrons, your troops are going to come down to one of two things:
1) Cheap as possible so you can spend points on other things
2) Immortals supported by Anrakyr, possibly in a Night Scythe
Otherwise they're basically cheap tarpits to escort around your Overlord or Lord with a Warscythe. They don't do Assault other than Pyrrhian Eternals sorta, but even they are only slightly better than Tactical Marines.
Requizen wrote: If you're planning on Assault Necrons, your troops are going to come down to one of two things:
1) Cheap as possible so you can spend points on other things
2) Immortals supported by Anrakyr, possibly in a Night Scythe
Otherwise they're basically cheap tarpits to escort around your Overlord or Lord with a Warscythe. They don't do Assault other than Pyrrhian Eternals sorta, but even they are only slightly better than Tactical Marines.
Eh.. I'm less enthused by the AP2 everything seems to have a cover save these days. Besides thats how mine are built, cause they look cooler (IMO).
My problem is no Anti-AA.
My group has no restrictions on what we play but "serious" mini tournaments use the Adepticon, 1 Cad , formations are unique but you can have more than one formation.
Requizen wrote: If you're planning on Assault Necrons, your troops are going to come down to one of two things:
1) Cheap as possible so you can spend points on other things
2) Immortals supported by Anrakyr, possibly in a Night Scythe
Otherwise they're basically cheap tarpits to escort around your Overlord or Lord with a Warscythe. They don't do Assault other than Pyrrhian Eternals sorta, but even they are only slightly better than Tactical Marines.
I'm actually not sure that this is the case. I agree with min Immortals in a Night Scythe. Last turn objective grabs OP
However, assuming that you're running a normal CAD for obsec, the Warriors in a GA is ABSOLUTELY worth the 235 points that it takes to get those insanely durable units, both of which are obsec (and can simultaneously secure two objectives if you do it right). No way that's not worth doing in any army, even an assault army.
Assuming both, you spend just shy of 500 points for some AA, tank busting and three super durable obsec units (for different reasons). Might even be all you need at 1850, so you can go nuts with the rest of your list and still have a strong obsec presence
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Requizen wrote: AA is Night Scythes or Doom Scythes. We can kiiiinda AA with big blobs of Warriors snap shooting up, but don't rely on something like that.
AA is the only real "weakness" of the codex, if you can even call it that. Allies easily solve that problem, but if you're set on normal Crons, the quad gun with tomb blades manning it is great (you could also grab a fortification that lets you upgrade a gun to the Icarus las cannon). A night scythe or two is a nice compromise. In my list, I plan to largely ignore air and dominate the ground. However, one GA plus one NS carrying immortals, then another NS carrying some other unit as a delivery system is a pretty decent amount of AA.
Best part of the codex - you can do that with a ton of units. Only concern I have with your list is the delivery system for the flayed ones. How are they going to catch their food?
luke1705 wrote: Best part of the codex - you can do that with a ton of units. Only concern I have with your list is the delivery system for the flayed ones. How are they going to catch their food?
Infiltrating or Deep Striking? Put a D-lord with the Solar Staff with them. There you go.
I can't tell if you can have a Warscythe and a Staff of the Sun or not, and it depends the army gives me two or more units to use the D-Lord, if needed I can infiltrate the Flayed Ones, and deep strike the Praetorians with the D- Lord giving them preferred enemy or Deep Strike all 3 units.
Hollismason wrote: Are you sure it works that way now? Cause that seems unusual.
Must replace Staff of Light with the following weapons. Thats what it says. And D-lords can Deep Strike, Jet Pack infantry have Deep Strike by default.
Hollismason wrote: Are you sure it works that way now? Cause that seems unusual.
Must replace Staff of Light with the following weapons. Thats what it says. And D-lords can Deep Strike, Jet Pack infantry have Deep Strike by default.
Oh no I was referring to the whole units conferring infiltrate to ICs that join them.
Wrong. The Destroyer Lord's Unit Type is 'Jet Pack Infantry'. You'll see if you check the rulebook one of the special rules that Jet Pack units have is 'Deep Strike'.
) it will not effect 
just got realy yo!
I'll try to post a quick overview of how it went.
I don't really see the reasoning behind the limitations, agreeing with you.
