Night Scythes won't stop Tau Interceptor/Overwatch shenanigans, though it will at least allow you you avoid scatter and clumping up (plus, super rerollable Tesla Destructor is always nice... but paying for a Stalker and not using it apart from granting those rerolls is a bit of a waste).

Alternatively, what about drowning them in wounds?
(throw a bunch of MSU Flayed Ones at them. At best, they'll eventually fail saves against that many attacks. At worst, you'll have tied them up with one of the cheapest throwaway units we have).

 skoffs wrote:
Night Scythes won't stop Tau Interceptor/Overwatch shenanigans, though it will at least allow you you avoid scatter and clumping up (plus, super rerollable Tesla Destructor is always nice... but paying for a Stalker and not using it apart from granting those rerolls is a bit of a waste).

Alternatively, what about drowning them in wounds?
(throw a bunch of MSU Flayed Ones at them. At best, they'll eventually fail saves against that many attacks. At worst, you'll have tied them up with one of the cheapest throwaway units we have).

If you go for the canoptek harvest or are already using it drown them with scarabs with rp max out the squad and keep adding scarabs while you get there. Either the tau player will waste shots at it which means it won't be shooting at other important units or it builds up and locks the riptide in forever with no escape, win-win either way

Problem is Riptide Wing will be likely to have more Tides than you would tarpitting Harvest units. If he puts them close enough to each other that you can multi charge, okay, cool. If not you're still going to have a lot of unengaged big guns running around the table...

Riptide really aren't that much of an issue for us, though. Kill the Markerlights and the rest of our army can withstand the firepower they dish out.

Early warning override makes even night scythes a risky delivery option.

 Grimgold wrote:
Early warning override makes even night scythes a risky delivery option.

It also makes them unable to shoot the next turn, and that means they didn't take other things on their suits. You can also play around that by deploying into cover.

Hey guys, I've got a crazy idea, but I need to figure out something first:
What is the optimal number of Flayed Ones for a unit if you're going MSU?

Too few and they'll get swept too easily.
Too many and it will be overkill in a lot of situations.
What is that sweet spot of juuuuust the right amount of shred bots?

10 easily.

I am hoping skoffs is going for a 10x10 flayed one list with Imhotekh!!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
10 easily.

Now why is it 10 and not, say, 7 or 12?
(looking for the reasoning behind the number, eg. "Less likely to be swept because you'd need to lose X models before they need to worry about reduced leadership" etc)

col_impact wrote:
I am hoping skoffs is going for a 10x10 flayed one list with Imhotekh!!

Flayed Ones with Imhotekh might be good if it weren't for the random factor.
[edit] oh, wait, I'm thinking of the old rules. Did they remove the random unit gets bloodswarm thing? I don't use Imhotekh...

 skoffs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
10 easily.

Now why is it 10 and not, say, 7 or 12?
(looking for the reasoning behind the number, eg. "Less likely to be swept because you'd need to lose X models before they need to worry about reduced leadership" etc)

col_impact wrote:
I am hoping skoffs is going for a 10x10 flayed one list with Imhotekh!!

Flayed Ones with Imhotekh might be good if it weren't for the random factor.
[edit] oh, wait, I'm thinking of the old rules. Did they remove the random unit gets bloodswarm thing? I don't use Imhotekh...

I am not following you. Imotekh reduces the randomness of the flayed ones deep striking, correct?

 skoffs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
10 easily.

Now why is it 10 and not, say, 7 or 12?
(looking for the reasoning behind the number, eg. "Less likely to be swept because you'd need to lose X models before they need to worry about reduced leadership" etc)

col_impact wrote:
I am hoping skoffs is going for a 10x10 flayed one list with Imhotekh!!

Flayed Ones with Imhotekh might be good if it weren't for the random factor.
[edit] oh, wait, I'm thinking of the old rules. Did they remove the random unit gets bloodswarm thing? I don't use Imhotekh...

10 is just enough that you can get shot at, go into melee with more than 20 shredding attacks after overwatch, and get stuck.

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Early warning override makes even night scythes a risky delivery option.

It also makes them unable to shoot the next turn, and that means they didn't take other things on their suits. You can also play around that by deploying into cover.

Also true, but just the weapons they fired, and a riptide will have more than one weapon. They could cook you with their Plasma on your turn and still have Nova Ion accelerator left over for desert on theirs. Deploying into cover will help, but they can ignore cover on their turn. To last more than a single shooting phase you need to be out of LoS until you charge, or have a good invul save. That's a turn three charge at the soonest, so using prats from night scythes takes half the game to get there, dies horribly if they kill their target in the wrong players turn, and is heavily dependent on terrain.

 krodarklorr wrote:
This really sucks. An army that was once renowned for how tough it's vehicles were never fields a single vehicle. That's sad.

Then again, GW nerfing the ghost ark further, putting open-topped on everything, making vehicles suck in general, and adding D-weapons everywhere that don't care about your AV is just making vehicles more and more worthless.

Sorry to bring this back up, but made me chuckle.

I recently built my monolith as I adore the model and its what got me into necrons in the first place.

Battle 1, 1000 points vs guards, took 2 rounds to explode (he got extremely lucky on rolls)
Battle 2, 1250 points vs admech, stole initiative, blew it up before it did literally anything.

 skoffs wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
10 easily.

Now why is it 10 and not, say, 7 or 12?
(looking for the reasoning behind the number, eg. "Less likely to be swept because you'd need to lose X models before they need to worry about reduced leadership" etc)

col_impact wrote:
I am hoping skoffs is going for a 10x10 flayed one list with Imhotekh!!

Flayed Ones with Imhotekh might be good if it weren't for the random factor.
[edit] oh, wait, I'm thinking of the old rules. Did they remove the random unit gets bloodswarm thing? I don't use Imhotekh...

They did remove the random unit business. Now, Flayed Ones reroll on a deepstrike. Add that with a Destroyer Cult (additional Deepstrikers)... could be fun in very large games.
Numbers wise, I'm thinking 8 is a pretty good number. With the reroll you can reliably place them on top of objectives, and they are resilient enough to survive a lot of shooting. I don't expect them to go toe-to-toe with my opponents assault units (got a Lychstar for that), but I do expect them to eat up a number of his backfield objectives holding units.

How viable would it be to deepstrike a unit of Flayed Ones with an attached Destroyer Lord (Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Nightmare Shroud) and melee Overlord (Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Res Orb and Veil)?

DLord tanks unless (until?) he splits off for gits and shiggles. Overlord with the Veil so he can deepstrike and then sticks around for Res Orb'ing, possible challenges and possible repositioning with said Veil.

Warscythes and Flayed Ones typically want different targets, don't they?
Plus, kind of a waste to give FOs preferred enemy when they already have shred...

Doesn't an IC need infiltrate in order to join a unit with infiltrate?

Infiltrate, yes... but they still could deep strike with an attached Destroyer Lord. But as skoffs said, they want different targets. You can split the Destroyer Lord off after Interceptor Fire, etc, but T5 3++ isn't all that tough (and a lot of points to make it 2+/3++) and not fast enough to get to reliably get to what you want that Warscythe to kill.

Right now I'm thinking 3 units of 8 at 1500 (no Imotehk) and 4 Units of 8 at 1850 (with Imotehk) on top of a basic decurion/Lychstar.

 Anpu-adom wrote:
... but they still could deep strike with an attached Destroyer Lord.

Unless they FAQ'd this and I don't know about it, then you can't do this. Even though they made Infiltrate optional, you still can't put an IC in there according to the FAQ.

Klowny wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
This really sucks. An army that was once renowned for how tough it's vehicles were never fields a single vehicle. That's sad.

Then again, GW nerfing the ghost ark further, putting open-topped on everything, making vehicles suck in general, and adding D-weapons everywhere that don't care about your AV is just making vehicles more and more worthless.

Sorry to bring this back up, but made me chuckle.

I recently built my monolith as I adore the model and its what got me into necrons in the first place.

Battle 1, 1000 points vs guards, took 2 rounds to explode (he got extremely lucky on rolls)
Battle 2, 1250 points vs admech, stole initiative, blew it up before it did literally anything.

Yeah. I will, however, be using one in a apoc game this weekend, but I'll be using it to deliver 20 Warriors wherever I want.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Grimgold wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:
Early warning override makes even night scythes a risky delivery option.

It also makes them unable to shoot the next turn, and that means they didn't take other things on their suits. You can also play around that by deploying into cover.

Also true, but just the weapons they fired, and a riptide will have more than one weapon. They could cook you with their Plasma on your turn and still have Nova Ion accelerator left over for desert on theirs. Deploying into cover will help, but they can ignore cover on their turn. To last more than a single shooting phase you need to be out of LoS until you charge, or have a good invul save. That's a turn three charge at the soonest, so using prats from night scythes takes half the game to get there, dies horribly if they kill their target in the wrong players turn, and is heavily dependent on terrain.

Cover will help immensely. 2 Plasma shots that hit on 4s rerolling and wounding on 3s, and has to get through a 4+ cover and a 4+ RP isn't going to neuter your unit. And when you have 2 of those, backed up by some Deep Strikers, the Tau are in trouble.

Seriously, people give the Riptide too much credit. I've played against at least 1-2 every time I've played against Tau, and I usually end up ignoring them. If they bring more, then sweet, less points they brought on markerlights and such.

Klowny wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
This really sucks. An army that was once renowned for how tough it's vehicles were never fields a single vehicle. That's sad.

Then again, GW nerfing the ghost ark further, putting open-topped on everything, making vehicles suck in general, and adding D-weapons everywhere that don't care about your AV is just making vehicles more and more worthless.

Sorry to bring this back up, but made me chuckle.

I recently built my monolith as I adore the model and its what got me into necrons in the first place.

Battle 1, 1000 points vs guards, took 2 rounds to explode (he got extremely lucky on rolls)
Battle 2, 1250 points vs admech, stole initiative, blew it up before it did literally anything.

The monolith is so cool looking and I love mine but I've found that it isn't especially useful on the table :(

I wish they would make it work like a drop pod without requiring the formation.

Qlanth wrote:

Klowny wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
This really sucks. An army that was once renowned for how tough it's vehicles were never fields a single vehicle. That's sad.

Then again, GW nerfing the ghost ark further, putting open-topped on everything, making vehicles suck in general, and adding D-weapons everywhere that don't care about your AV is just making vehicles more and more worthless.

Sorry to bring this back up, but made me chuckle.

I recently built my monolith as I adore the model and its what got me into necrons in the first place.

Battle 1, 1000 points vs guards, took 2 rounds to explode (he got extremely lucky on rolls)
Battle 2, 1250 points vs admech, stole initiative, blew it up before it did literally anything.

The monolith is so cool looking and I love mine but I've found that it isn't especially useful on the table :(

I wish they would make it work like a drop pod without requiring the formation.

Yeah, it used to work that way, but they decided it needed a nerf, for some reason.

It needed an initial nerf from the 3rd edition version (or at least a balancing),
But every additional nerf they've given it since then just drives it further and further to the back of the shelf... almost like someone there has something personal against it

 Anpu-adom wrote:
Infiltrate, yes... but they still could deep strike with an attached Destroyer Lord. But as skoffs said, they want different targets. You can split the Destroyer Lord off after Interceptor Fire, etc, but T5 3++ isn't all that tough (and a lot of points to make it 2+/3++) and not fast enough to get to reliably get to what you want that Warscythe to kill.

Right now I'm thinking 3 units of 8 at 1500 (no Imotehk) and 4 Units of 8 at 1850 (with Imotehk) on top of a basic decurion/Lychstar.

I know it's nitpicking, but the Destroyer Lord is T6. Basicly a Monstrous Creature with Jetpack. He's actually quite good at going solo but his Preferred Enemy begs that he be attached to a unit that can use it.

 krodarklorr wrote:


Cover will help immensely. 2 Plasma shots that hit on 4s rerolling and wounding on 3s, and has to get through a 4+ cover and a 4+ RP isn't going to neuter your unit. And when you have 2 of those, backed up by some Deep Strikers, the Tau are in trouble.

Seriously, people give the Riptide too much credit. I've played against at least 1-2 every time I've played against Tau, and I usually end up ignoring them. If they bring more, then sweet, less points they brought on markerlights and such.

That's stark raving madness, that's two harvest worth of points, which is two turn two assaults and immunity to tau shenanigans, for a unit that might be effective by turn 3, is delicate, and drags along a giant target along with it. My argument is not that riptides are unbeatable, it's that a judicator battalion is the possibly the worst unit that might be capable of doing the job. I've killed riptides for days, and tau isn't even in my top 3 for hardest army to face.

 Grimgold wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:


Cover will help immensely. 2 Plasma shots that hit on 4s rerolling and wounding on 3s, and has to get through a 4+ cover and a 4+ RP isn't going to neuter your unit. And when you have 2 of those, backed up by some Deep Strikers, the Tau are in trouble.

Seriously, people give the Riptide too much credit. I've played against at least 1-2 every time I've played against Tau, and I usually end up ignoring them. If they bring more, then sweet, less points they brought on markerlights and such.

That's stark raving madness, that's two harvest worth of points, which is two turn two assaults and immunity to tau shenanigans, for a unit that might be effective by turn 3, is delicate, and drags along a giant target along with it. My argument is not that riptides are unbeatable, it's that a judicator battalion is the possibly the worst unit that might be capable of doing the job. I've killed riptides for days, and tau isn't even in my top 3 for hardest army to face.

Oh, well then I guess just bring Harvests. I personally am looking forward to bringing 20x praetorians. They're a lot more killy than Wraiths.

... People bring Wraiths because they think they're killy?
(did I miss a memo somewhere?)

No, wraiths are fair to middling at best on the offense side, it's their speed and toughness that make them star players. They are probably the finest tar pit unit in the game, and two of them will give tau fits, especially if they are silly enough to be running riptides in units. You can't get away from them, you can't kill them easily, and they are perfectly happy tying up an opponents best units for the rest of the game.

As for whats killy, outside of the rare 2+ save, D-Cult will take the prats lunch money in terms of effectiveness. Better range, more attacks, pop out shooting, same strength, more wounds, and the only thing they have to drag with them is a 3 wound toughness 6 IC who shreds in CC with a war scythe. They can also bring las cannon equivalents, which combines well with EP to pop the occasional unit we don't want to wait on glancing to death.

Yeah, Harvest Wraiths and Scarabs are perfect for catch and hold tarpitting, which is why I'm usually confused when people push for them in offensive roles.
But if 2+ saves are giving you problems, of the three infantry based formations the Decurion has to choose from, the Praetorians are definitely the ones to look at for killiness.

Really, the three formations all work so well in conjunction with each other, it's a shame they're so cost prohibative, making it difficult to (effectively) take all three of them at once.

You make a wraith unit killy by attaching some warscythes to it. You make it nigh indestructible by attaching Orikan.

Yeah, but Warscythes are killy by themselves, they don't need Wraiths.
Wraiths really excel at the catch-and-hold game.
If you want killy there are usually better options.

 skoffs wrote:
Yeah, but Warscythes are killy by themselves, they don't need Wraiths.
Wraiths really excel at the catch-and-hold game.
If you want killy there are usually better options.

Options that aren't fast enough or durable enough to make it into combat are not better options.

Why combat?
If you want things dead instead of just tied up, wouldn't shooting be the better option?
(don't get me wrong, though, I'm all for tying up instead of killing)

Necron shooting is mediocre at best.

Many units found in competitive lists can plow through an unsupported wraith unit (e.g. TWC, WK, IK, BT).

Hit & Run is a complete hard counter to the tarpit and shoot strategy.

Also, if you are playing ITC, then assault is more effective against invisibility than shooting.

col_impact wrote:
You make a wraith unit killy by attaching some warscythes to it. You make it nigh indestructible by attaching Orikan.

Destroyer Lord with Voidreaper for extreme killyness along with Orikan for nigh indestructiblality. My D Lord with Voidreaper is a thing of terrible destructive beauty. He was good with warscythe but when I started arming him with Voidreaper he took it to the next level. He can earn his points back in one assualt if he lands all his hits. Have yet to try him with Orikan but it seems like an awesome combo.

Wraiths and D-Lord I have no issue with.
Yeah, they slow him down a bit, what with them being fast and him being medium speed, but not by a huge amount.
But I'm not sure about them with Orikan.
Do you slingshot him? Or just slow them down to match his speed?

Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.

Just to chime in but I'm really liking pairing wraiths with preatorians on a flank. The combo if speed, fearless, durability is just great. The preatorians AP2 really helps the wraiths in assault and the wraiths provide mobile cover on the way in.

The key with something like that would be making sure the Praets can get in range of the target at the same time as the Wraiths so they can shoot before the Wraiths charge (and then charge themselves).

The problem with something like this would be with that many points devoted to one combat you're not going to be able to handle many units. Like, yeah, against something like a deathstar they're going to be good, but against a list with multiple threats... I don't have a lot of faith.

 skoffs wrote:
The key with something like that would be making sure the Praets can get in range of the target at the same time as the Wraiths so they can shoot before the Wraiths charge (and then charge themselves).

The problem with something like this would be with that many points devoted to one combat you're not going to be able to handle many units. Like, yeah, against something like a deathstar they're going to be good, but against a list with multiple threats... I don't have a lot of faith.

So, if it comes to MSU, split them up. Praetorians are not helpless on their own. They always perform well for me.

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.

Necron shooting is decidedly mediocre if you compare it to armies that are actually good at shooting. Eldar, Tau, Space Marines (of most varieties), Guard, and Renegades leave us in the dust. As do stupid things like 3-5 IK forces.

We're not bottom of the barrel, but we're definitely middle of the pack and shouldn't ever expect to table people with our guns unless they're playing something really bad.

Necron shooting has always underwhelmed me. Limited range on all except a very few (poor) weapons. Prior to this codex, Necron assault has also sucked. At least now we do have some good assault units and Reanimation Protocols that show we can outlast in most assaults.

Requizen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.

Necron shooting is decidedly mediocre if you compare it to armies that are actually good at shooting. Eldar, Tau, Space Marines (of most varieties), Guard, and Renegades leave us in the dust. As do stupid things like 3-5 IK forces.

We're not bottom of the barrel, but we're definitely middle of the pack and shouldn't ever expect to table people with our guns unless they're playing something really bad.

You're saying Knights have better shooting than crons? Umm, whut.

Also, I disagree that Space Marines have better shooting. They have Grav Cents, that's about it. Everything else is meh.

 skoffs wrote:
Wraiths and D-Lord I have no issue with.
Yeah, they slow him down a bit, what with them being fast and him being medium speed, but not by a huge amount.
But I'm not sure about them with Orikan.
Do you slingshot him? Or just slow them down to match his speed?

Well let's consider how Orikan works. He only grants re-rolls if the unit has RP. They only way Wraiths get RP is in a Canoptek Harvest. They Spider only moves 6" + Run. Just like Orikan
So for the first few turns, you are conga lining the unit to stay in coherency with Orikan, but that also keeps you within range of the Spider so that you don't accidentally move out of range and can't reactivate RP in the next turn.

Of course, the opponent just needs to kill the Spider and wait a turn to shoot down the Wraiths, but to guarantees 1-2 turns of nigh invincibility for the Wraiths who are now where they need to be.

-

 krodarklorr wrote:

Requizen wrote:

 krodarklorr wrote:
Necron shooting is far from mediocre. Now, Ork/Chaos/DE shooting is all mediocre.

Necron shooting is decidedly mediocre if you compare it to armies that are actually good at shooting. Eldar, Tau, Space Marines (of most varieties), Guard, and Renegades leave us in the dust. As do stupid things like 3-5 IK forces.

We're not bottom of the barrel, but we're definitely middle of the pack and shouldn't ever expect to table people with our guns unless they're playing something really bad.

You're saying Knights have better shooting than crons? Umm, whut.

Also, I disagree that Space Marines have better shooting. They have Grav Cents, that's about it. Everything else is meh.

The Knight Crusader already is an as good if not better firebase than anything we have if it goes Avenger Gatling + Rapid Fire Battle Cannon, and if you branch out into FW (which you should if you're running an IK army) the Knight Castigator and Knight Acheron put out enough AP3 shots to make one blush. And they're on more durable bases than Destroyers against anything that's not Drop Pod Meltas.

Space Marine shooting makes Necrons look pale in comparison. We have better versions of their bolters, but we have nothing at all in our book that can compare to the amount of Grav they can put on everything. Grav Cents are good as you say, but they also have Grav Bikers (5 of them in the Command Squad will ruin armies in a couple turns with IC support) and Grav Devs (take them in the Skyhammer formation and watch them come out of Pods with Relentless and remove a unit on T1 or T2). Drop Pod Meltas is nothing our army can match, Gauss is a neat tool but it's nothing compared to the ability to drop in a handful of Meltaguns around a Knight and turn it into slag in a single turn (not as uncommon as you might think). Not to mention, again, if you jump into FW you have access to the absolutely insane Fire Raptor and the pretty darn good Contemptor Dread. And that's not even talking about TFCs being one of the best Artillery pieces in the game, especially if you slap Tiggy into the list.

Just because most SM players are running Wolfstars and Libby Conclaves doesn't mean their guns are ineffective.

 Galef wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Wraiths and D-Lord I have no issue with.
Yeah, they slow him down a bit, what with them being fast and him being medium speed, but not by a huge amount.
But I'm not sure about them with Orikan.
Do you slingshot him? Or just slow them down to match his speed?

Well let's consider how Orikan works. He only grants re-rolls if the unit has RP. They only way Wraiths get RP is in a Canoptek Harvest. They Spider only moves 6" + Run. Just like Orikan
So for the first few turns, you are conga lining the unit to stay in coherency with Orikan, but that also keeps you within range of the Spider so that you don't accidentally move out of range and can't reactivate RP in the next turn.

Of course, the opponent just needs to kill the Spider and wait a turn to shoot down the Wraiths, but to guarantees 1-2 turns of nigh invincibility for the Wraiths who are now where they need to be.

-

Actually Orikan Grants rerolls to saving throws of one, not reanimation protocols of one. So the wraiths will be rerolling all invuln saves of one. Since RP isn't a saving throw, you can't use Orikan to reroll RP, but if the warlord is in or nearby the unit, they will get that too.

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:

Actually Orikan Grants rerolls to saving throws of one, not reanimation protocols of one. So the wraiths will be rerolling all invuln saves of one. Since RP isn't a saving throw, you can't use Orikan to reroll RP, but if the warlord is in or nearby the unit, they will get that too.

Incorrect. The Overlord grants rerolls of 1 to RP rolls to units from the Reclamation Legion formation only.

To get Wraiths, a Destroyer Lord AND Orikan into one unit you're looking at a minimum of 1430 points (Rec.Legion + Harvest + D.Cult + Royal Court), and that's all completely naked, just to get the units required on the table in a Decurion. After actually buffing the models involved in that one deathstar up to make them effective, you're not going to have many points left over to pad out the rest of your army.
Yes, you'll have a Destroyer Cult, so you'll at least have some useful tools at your disposal... but will it be fleshed out enough to handle a competitive list? I wouldn't bet on it.
I still feel like Necron deathstars might be fun but aren't our best competitive builds. YMMV.

 skoffs wrote:
To get Wraiths, a Destroyer Lord AND Orikan into one unit you're looking at a minimum of 1430 points (Rec.Legion + Harvest + D.Cult + Royal Court), and that's all completely naked, just to get the units required on the table in a Decurion. After actually buffing the models involved in that one deathstar up to make them effective, you're not going to have many points left over to pad out the rest of your army.
Yes, you'll have a Destroyer Cult, so you'll at least have some useful tools at your disposal... but will it be fleshed out enough to handle a competitive list? I wouldn't bet on it.
I still feel like Necron deathstars might be fun but aren't our best competitive builds. YMMV.

Wraithstars have had good results at tournaments, but it's hard to pilot and (imo) not that fun.

What variety of Wraith-star?
Orikan led?
Seems very cost prohibitive.
And is the Wraith-star itself the main focus of the list, or do they have other things working in conjunction with?
I'm just saying, the one suggested seems a little too "all the eggs in one basket"

You can actually have all of our fun units in a single 1850 list, I don't know how well it will perform, since sacrifices had to be made (like an overlord with a SoL hiding in a group of warriors), but for a giggle it might be a fun list to try:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/700561.page#8860314

 skoffs wrote:
What variety of Wraith-star?
Orikan led?
Seems very cost prohibitive.
And is the Wraith-star itself the main focus of the list, or do they have other things working in conjunction with?
I'm just saying, the one suggested seems a little too "all the eggs in one basket"

I don't remember the exact list, I think it was BAO though. Pretty sure it was DCult/Harvest/Court Decurion. Not my favorite list, but eh, it works for some people.

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:


Actually Orikan Grants rerolls to saving throws of one, not reanimation protocols of one. So the wraiths will be rerolling all invuln saves of one.

Yes I am aware that Orikan grants saving throw re-rolls of '1', but I thought this particular rule only applied to "models with RP". I don't have my codex to check right now, so I might be misremembering.

So in a unit of Wraith, the rule would no longer allow them to re-roll 1's for their 3++ on any turn that they did not start within range of their Formation's Spider.

-

 skoffs wrote:
What variety of Wraith-star?
Orikan led?
Seems very cost prohibitive.
And is the Wraith-star itself the main focus of the list, or do they have other things working in conjunction with?
I'm just saying, the one suggested seems a little too "all the eggs in one basket"

The highest placing Necron list at LVO 2016 had an Orikan/Royal Court Wraithstar. http://bloodofkittens.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/02/Alex-Fennell-5th-Overall-LVO-2016.pdf

Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

 skoffs wrote:
Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

Wraiths have a 3++ and the Destroyer Lord has a 2+. I can understand it as a way to save points but it would still make me nervous!

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

Wraiths have a 3++ and the Destroyer Lord has a 2+. I can understand it as a way to save points but it would still make me nervous!

Yeah the Overlord is clearly meant to LOS any wounds. There are enough characters in this unit that you can use something cheap to challenge so that the Overlord can always chop at the unit instead of wasting attacks on the enemy's tank character

-

 skoffs wrote:
Interesting.
They gave the Court Overlord Voidreaper... and only Voidreaper. No Phase Shifter or anything else to keep him alive.
And the Lord has Solar Staff... but no one in the unit has a Veil so it looks like they foot slogged.

I'm guessing the three 4x Destroyer units did a lot of work, as a single footslogging deathstar seems like it should have been easy enough for most opponents to avoid.
Got a link to any battle reports involving this setup? Interested to see how it was actually played.

Don't know of any battle reports but here is an interview with the guy who played the list: (note he talks more about the meta than the list itself) https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/04/05/40k-list-tech-crons-and-controversy/ He does mention that he wishes he had put a veil of Darkness in the wraithstar. Also check out Joe Comacho's list underneath that, he must be an absolutely fantastic general, because he plays with a really interesting out of the box list, and placed 7th.

 Grimgold wrote:
You can actually have all of our fun units in a single 1850 list, I don't know how well it will perform, since sacrifices had to be made (like an overlord with a SoL hiding in a group of warriors), but for a giggle it might be a fun list to try:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/700561.page#8860314

I took a similar list to NOVA OPEN tournament last year.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/659876.page

The main problem I had was against MSU objective secured spam. But it performed well enough, placing in the top 20ish of 250 if I remember right.

Cramming all 3 of those formations into 1850 doesn't leave much room to change the list. The only difference between our list is instead of taking Heavy Destroyers and Zhandrekh, you chose to take 3 more Wraiths and downgrading Zhandrekh to a normal Overlord. I found Zhandrekh's resilience and ability to take the 'reroll 1s when shooting' trait and 'fearless' trait to be very useful. One of my games was won because he attached himself to the unit of Scarabs and stood in front to tank a full round of Scatter Lasers, robbing my opponent an objective that he would have easily stolen with objective secured if any of my scarabs died.

In hindsight, the Stalker was bad. It's a huge tax and it died every game before getting a chance to do anything. I would ditch the Battalion in favor of more larger Destroyer units (at least 1 per unit so they can wipe a 5man of Space Marines) and either another Harvest or Flayed Ones to tie up units while Destroyers do the heavy lifting. The Praetorians performed great, and were a star in each match, but their tax is just too high.

Has anyone ever tried taking multiple Stalkers?
Everyone always says they die immediately so they never get a chance to use them... but I wonder what would happen with a little redundancy taken into consideration?

 skoffs wrote:
Has anyone ever tried taking multiple Stalkers?
Everyone always says they die immediately so they never get a chance to use them... but I wonder what would happen with a little redundancy taken into consideration?

It's a lot of points. Their ability wants you to use them with infantry. But the fact that they're a Walker with AC, means that you want to have other vehicles on the board to give your opponent's anti-vehicle units something else to shoot at. There aren't enough points to have both lots of Infantry and Vehicles, so they end up being squashed by whatever units your opponent has to handle vehicles. Having two in a single unit will just mean that those anti-vehicle units will make up their points better.

 skoffs wrote:
Has anyone ever tried taking multiple Stalkers?
Everyone always says they die immediately so they never get a chance to use them... but I wonder what would happen with a little redundancy taken into consideration?

I take multiple stalkers. Its depends what kind of list I wanna run. I also find them fantastic in low point games or escalation games since av 13 at 500 pts that buffs all my guys BS is a giant pain to deal with.

One way I use them is give them the HGC and sit one or two of them with a couple units of heavy destroyers. Another thing I do is what I call the sliding door, A full unit of warriors with a ghost ark behind them turned side ways and a stalker behind that. Movement phase move everything forward but move the ghost ark to the side to give the stalker los shooting then during the shooting phase move the ghost ark flat out back in front of the stalker to give it a cover save. same can be done with the monolith but the warrior units will have to be on the sides of the monolith instead of the front for the +1bs range on the stalker.

Anrakyr-the-Traveller wrote:
Don't know of any battle reports but here is an interview with the guy who played the list: (note he talks more about the meta than the list itself) https://www.frontlinegaming.org/2016/04/05/40k-list-tech-crons-and-controversy/ He does mention that he wishes he had put a veil of Darkness in the wraithstar. Also check out Joe Comacho's list underneath that, he must be an absolutely fantastic general, because he plays with a really interesting out of the box list, and placed 7th.

Really wish I could find more info on how Comacho plays his list.
Like, what every units role in the army is.

Zimko wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

The main problem I had was against MSU objective secured spam. But it performed well enough, placing in the top 20ish of 250 if I remember right.

Dude, if (and when) I ever break the top 20ish at Nova I will have it tattooed somewhere prominently on my body for all to see

By the way I love this list. Like cowbell I think you always need more wraiths but that's just me. I finally had to admit to myself that 12 was enough. So if you are going to Nova next week you'll probably see your list floating around...better than what I came up with by far...

as an odd weekend game to test Night Scythes out after the FAQ, I tried out:

Destroyer Cult (DLord with 2+ armor, warscythe and phase shifter, 3x3 normal, 1x3 heavy) + Judicator Battalion (MSU+Night Scythes) and a Renegade Knight (double Gatling and Stormspear Rocket.) 1850 exactly.

Renegade actually did a lot it erased a couple of msu units in shooting turn one, then engaged the Deathstar for some stomp action. Next test game will have Gatling/Battle Cannon.

Judicator rerolls on Night Scythe wounds/pens were spot on plus the rerolls for the Praetorians

So basically Knight did all the heavy lifting and all the Necron units helped.
At this point, why is anyone even playing anything that doesn't have "knight" in its name at all!

 skoffs wrote:
So basically Knight did all the heavy lifting and all the Necron units helped.
At this point, why is anyone even playing anything that doesn't have "knight" in its name at all!

I brought CAD 18 Wraiths + Destroyer Cult to a tourney on Sunday, instead of my usual Knight list.

Got tabled twice. Missed my Knight the whole time. Welcome to 40k, the new Apocalypse.

When I run my 18 wraith CAD, I find that a tanking D lord with orikan is super helpful. Sure, he doesn't grant durability to the wraiths, but a re-rollable 2+ save, and a 4++ re-rerolling ones with 4+ RP plus Look Out Sir to 3++ wraiths means that that unit is getting wherever you want it to.

And yes, you basically slingshot orikan into combat. I especially like him because when he turns into a freaking C'tan, he is no slouch on his own and can easily detach if you wish to maul other units.

 luke1705 wrote:
When I run my 18 wraith CAD, I find that a tanking D lord with orikan is super helpful. Sure, he doesn't grant durability to the wraiths, but a re-rollable 2+ save, and a 4++ re-rerolling ones with 4+ RP plus Look Out Sir to 3++ wraiths means that that unit is getting wherever you want it to.

And yes, you basically slingshot orikan into combat. I especially like him because when he turns into a freaking C'tan, he is no slouch on his own and can easily detach if you wish to maul other units.

Orikan grants the wraiths a 3++ save that re-rolls ones.

Requizen wrote:
Missed my Knight the whole time. Welcome to 40k.

I'm guessing that's what the "k" stands for, now.
(and of course we'll never get our knight equivalent of anything...)

col_impact wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
When I run my 18 wraith CAD, I find that a tanking D lord with orikan is super helpful. Sure, he doesn't grant durability to the wraiths, but a re-rollable 2+ save, and a 4++ re-rerolling ones with 4+ RP plus Look Out Sir to 3++ wraiths means that that unit is getting wherever you want it to.

And yes, you basically slingshot orikan into combat. I especially like him because when he turns into a freaking C'tan, he is no slouch on his own and can easily detach if you wish to maul other units.

Orikan grants the wraiths a 3++ save that re-rolls ones.

Only harvest wraith, he said he was running a CAD.
"all models with reanimation protocols in this unit add +1 to their reanimation rolls,and can reroll failed saving throws of 1"

harkequin wrote:

col_impact wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:
When I run my 18 wraith CAD, I find that a tanking D lord with orikan is super helpful. Sure, he doesn't grant durability to the wraiths, but a re-rollable 2+ save, and a 4++ re-rerolling ones with 4+ RP plus Look Out Sir to 3++ wraiths means that that unit is getting wherever you want it to.

And yes, you basically slingshot orikan into combat. I especially like him because when he turns into a freaking C'tan, he is no slouch on his own and can easily detach if you wish to maul other units.

Orikan grants the wraiths a 3++ save that re-rolls ones.

Only harvest wraith, he said he was running a CAD.
"all models with reanimation protocols in this unit add +1 to their reanimation rolls,and can reroll failed saving throws of 1"

You can add a Harvest formation to a CAD.
A Harvest with 6x Wraiths is only 350 points. Three of them (18x Wraiths) for 1050.
Easily fit into an 1850 CAD with points left over to add other useful stuff (eg. Tomb Blades, Heavy Destroyers, etc.).
Hell, you can even add 9x Spyders to it, bump each Harvest Scarab Swarm up to 4x each and make a decent Scarab Farm/Wraith Wing list (18 Wraiths, 12 Spyders, turn one 24 Scarabs) for 1850 on the nose. At that point Orikan would be there just to make an unkillable warlord/late game surprise MC, but hey! Totally feasible army.
(Granted, he said his list also included a Destroyer Lord, so obviously this isn't what he ran, but the point was that it's completely within the realm of possibility that he ran multiple Harvests in a CAD with Orikan).

Does anyone ever put a Tachyon Arrow on their D Lord in a D Cult? If you had the spare points as we know they ain't cheap for a single use item.

Just thinking it could get you an easy first blood and give the D Lord something to do turn 1. Re-rolls to Pen could even potentially screw a Knight. On that subject which Renegade Knight load out suits Crons best in the current tourney meta?

You can't give the Destroyer Lord an Arrow in the new codex...

what are some good tactics in giving a necron destroyer lord a veil of darkness and resurrection orb in the decurion? saw a great list with it but was confused as to how it should be used. perhaps deep striking a unit of lychguard and helping to keep them alive for a turn before they charge?

Veil Of Darkness is better off on something else. You want either the Shroud or Reaper on him, as both max out its potential.

I have seen the Veil used to get a Wraithstar out of a combat it has been locked into for too long.

 skoffs wrote:
You can't give the Destroyer Lord an Arrow in the new codex...

I'd never even realised the poor D Lord doesn't get access to the ranged weapons section! Thanks for pointing that one out and it's a good job I've never tried using it before.

 necron99 wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

The main problem I had was against MSU objective secured spam. But it performed well enough, placing in the top 20ish of 250 if I remember right.

Dude, if (and when) I ever break the top 20ish at Nova I will have it tattooed somewhere prominently on my body for all to see

By the way I love this list. Like cowbell I think you always need more wraiths but that's just me. I finally had to admit to myself that 12 was enough. So if you are going to Nova next week you'll probably see your list floating around...better than what I came up with by far...

Unfortunately I won't make it this year. I'm a little tired of 7th edition and their 'take whatever units you want' approach. The flexibility was nice for a while but now I'm wishing tournaments would just go back to the standard Force Org. Everytime I try to play a pickup game I try to have 'the conversation' where you determine what kind of list to run, but everyone's version of 'competitive' is different. So it's always a mismatch.

Zimko wrote:

 necron99 wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

The main problem I had was against MSU objective secured spam. But it performed well enough, placing in the top 20ish of 250 if I remember right.

Dude, if (and when) I ever break the top 20ish at Nova I will have it tattooed somewhere prominently on my body for all to see

By the way I love this list. Like cowbell I think you always need more wraiths but that's just me. I finally had to admit to myself that 12 was enough. So if you are going to Nova next week you'll probably see your list floating around...better than what I came up with by far...

Unfortunately I won't make it this year. I'm a little tired of 7th edition and their 'take whatever units you want' approach. The flexibility was nice for a while but now I'm wishing tournaments would just go back to the standard Force Org. Everytime I try to play a pickup game I try to have 'the conversation' where you determine what kind of list to run, but everyone's version of 'competitive' is different. So it's always a mismatch.

Yeah. I've been playing AoS lately as a change of pace, and I brought my Necrons to a tourney a couple weekends back. It just felt... I dunno. Like, I'm a bit burnt out of the hyper competitive stuff, but even the casual lists are starting to look stupid with LoWs being super common (our local Tau player considers the Stormsurge "friendly" because he doesn't min/max it) and formations just getting out of hand.

Kind of waiting for 8th edition to see what happens.

Here's hoping they implement some sort of universal anti-spam mechanic? (eg. No more than three of any one unit type, no more than three (two?) superheavies, etc.)
Us and a bunch of the other under appreciated codex should be safe, but certain builds from other armies would be forced to change.

 skoffs wrote:
Here's hoping they implement some sort of universal anti-spam mechanic? (eg. No more than three of any one unit type, no more than three (two?) superheavies, etc.)
Us and a bunch of the other under appreciated codex should be safe, but certain builds from other armies would be forced to change.

It's a nice thought, but i reckon it'd never happen as it'd imvalidate things like drop pod armies

Plus, you know,
spamming units = increased sales
:/

I'm liking the Composite Formations (like decurions). It does fill in the flavor of the xeno-style armies better than the standard FOC (unless you are Eldar).

Zimko wrote:

 necron99 wrote:

Zimko wrote:

 Grimgold wrote:

The main problem I had was against MSU objective secured spam. But it performed well enough, placing in the top 20ish of 250 if I remember right.

Dude, if (and when) I ever break the top 20ish at Nova I will have it tattooed somewhere prominently on my body for all to see

By the way I love this list. Like cowbell I think you always need more wraiths but that's just me. I finally had to admit to myself that 12 was enough. So if you are going to Nova next week you'll probably see your list floating around...better than what I came up with by far...

Unfortunately I won't make it this year. I'm a little tired of 7th edition and their 'take whatever units you want' approach. The flexibility was nice for a while but now I'm wishing tournaments would just go back to the standard Force Org. Everytime I try to play a pickup game I try to have 'the conversation' where you determine what kind of list to run, but everyone's version of 'competitive' is different. So it's always a mismatch.

I hear ya on that. I originally signed up for X-Wing Miniatures this year but couldn't get enough games in to make it worth it so I switched back to 40k.

Wow, quite a long thread - will take me some time to go through it!

I've recently felt the urge to dwelve deeper into the the secrets of the ancient Necrontyr and am very close to diving in a grabbing a small starter force.

The only thing that's holding me back I guess is that pretty much the only standard template build I see is Decurion + Canoptek Harvest and the fact that it's hard to cram all the cool units that I'd like to play into the 1250/1500 pts that we usually play in my group.

I'm not necessarily looking to play them super competitive, although part of their appeal is the amount of filthy combos you can pull off.

If you'd be so good as to answer me a few things from your perspective as necron veterans I'd be grateful.

How good are our Forgeworld units? The pylons, crypt stalkers and nightshrouds look awesome, but seem expensive point wise and sub par on paper.

I'd like to play a Living Tomb formation for the sheer awesomeness of dropping those mosters into my enemy lines turn 2. But I don't like to play warrior spam and apparently our vehicles are squishy - will I fail horribly?

Thank you for your time!

First of all,
DO NOT go through the entire thread.
Practically everything from the beginning has been rendered obsolete.

You're better off checking the 1D4chan tactics page instead. At least that is categorized and easily searchable.

You don't NEED to go Decurion to have a good army, it's perfectly possible to play CAD Necrons and do well... it's just most people can't bring themselves to pass up that sweet sweet 4+ RP.

Harvest is good, but not for the reason most people think (they're expecting killy when they're actually getting tarpit). If you want to tarpit things, go ahead and get the stuff for a Harvest. If you want to kill things, you're going to have to go with the other stuff.
...
But not vehicles.
They're all meh (yes, even the FW stuff)

I mostly just can't pass up the Move Through Cover and Relentless.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
I mostly just can't pass up the Move Through Cover and Relentless.

This. The 4+ is what makes people annoyed, but MTC Jetbikes are way, way better than ones that have to take DT (even with 3+/RP, you might lose one, and that sucks), and having surprisingly fast (though cover) Warriors/Immortals that can shoot and charge is a huge boon that people don't realize until their Grav Devastators are in combat the whole game.

On the other side of the coin you can make fun and crazy lists in CAD's. I hardly ever run the Decurion. So many playstyles that are lost with it.

Klowny wrote:
On the other side of the coin you can make fun and crazy lists in CAD's. I hardly ever run the Decurion. So many playstyles that are lost with it.

What do you play for instance? Whats the most fun?

Scarab Farm, for one.

Personally, I'm a fan of the S9 spam list (double CAD with 12 or more individual Heavy Gauss Canons running around independently)

 skoffs wrote:


You can add a Harvest formation to a CAD.
A Harvest with 6x Wraiths is only 350 points. Three of them (18x Wraiths) for 1050.
Easily fit into an 1850 CAD with points left over to add other useful stuff (eg. Tomb Blades, Heavy Destroyers, etc.).
Hell, you can even add 9x Spyders to it, bump each Harvest Scarab Swarm up to 4x each and make a decent Scarab Farm/Wraith Wing list (18 Wraiths, 12 Spyders, turn one 24 Scarabs) for 1850 on the nose. At that point Orikan would be there just to make an unkillable warlord/late game surprise MC, but hey! Totally feasible army.
(Granted, he said his list also included a Destroyer Lord, so obviously this isn't what he ran, but the point was that it's completely within the realm of possibility that he ran multiple Harvests in a CAD with Orikan).

CAD plus a harvest is actually probably a more optimal way to run my list tbh. Heck, a decurion is probably a more optimal way to run my list but I do still think that obsec has value. I do like adhering to a 3 source format so I think just one harvest deathstar would be good with orikan. I would like to try out a second harvest formation just to maximize the third source, but I don't think they would be killy enough, and I feel like I would need to split my destroyer lord to the second squad of wraiths to make them more killy and grant the 4+ RP.

Necron Kill Team on the GW store:
How DARE they taunt us with that name!

https://www.games-workshop.com/en-GB/Necrons-Kill-Team

BlackCadian wrote:

Klowny wrote:
On the other side of the coin you can make fun and crazy lists in CAD's. I hardly ever run the Decurion. So many playstyles that are lost with it.

What do you play for instance? Whats the most fun?

Orikan/Dlord Lychstar with an retribution phalanx is quite fun (1100 point game)

9x HD backed up by a HGC stalker is nasty

Anrakyr and szerath and 10 super buffed immortals is fun.

I just read through the codex and build lists around a rule or idea. Breaks up the monotony of the Decurion.

Wow GW, good job knowing basic rules you wrote. Necron Kill Team PDF gave a flayed one Feel No Pain....

Adding a CAD to a Decurion is a cheap way to add Orikan + D. Lord to a Canoptek Harvest (and circumvent the Royal Court tax and the Destroyer Cult tax).

Also a CAD allows you to add a fortification. Those of you who want to run a whole bunch of heavy destroyers should consider adding a VSG or a Skyshield along with a Judicator Battalion for a protected and powerful BS +1 buff.

Hmm, 170 points worth of Immortals tax wouldn't be so bad, especially considering they'd be ObSec.
But how would you use them?
Sit them in the back with the Decurion's Immortals?
Push them up aggressively on foot to take nearby objectives?
Or get them Night Scythes to ride around in? (seeing as how you can embark things in NS again, maybe useful)

And would an Imperial Bunker be worth considering for a fortification?
Let a couple Heavy Dees hang out in there while a HGC Stalker sits behind it for cover?

col_impact wrote:
Adding a CAD to a Decurion is a cheap way to add Orikan + D. Lord to a Canoptek Harvest (and circumvent the Royal Court tax and the Destroyer Cult tax).

Also a CAD allows you to add a fortification. Those of you who want to run a whole bunch of heavy destroyers should consider adding a VSG or a Skyshield along with a Judicator Battalion for a protected and powerful BS2 buff.

Yep agree with this 100%

Never thought of the fortifications for these, that would be naaaasty.

Well, the favor of the month is Kill Teams.
What you guys got?

Here are my ideas:

5x Tomb Blades (5x Gauss, 5x Shields, 4x Scopes, 1x Shadow Loom)
7x Flayed Ones
(200)

3x Destroyers
6x Flayed Ones
(198)

3x Scarabs
5x Praetorians (Rods)
(200)

5x Scarabs
5x Deathmarks
(190)

3x Wraiths
6x Flayed Ones
(198)

7x Immortals
4x Scarabs
(199)

10x Warriors
5x Flayed Ones
(195)

Not sure which would be best, nor what Leader/Specialist combos to go for.

(Though, side note, what was the decision on whether Quantum Shielding contributed to the "no more than a combined AV of 33" rule? Can we take Stalkers, or are we just not allowed vehicles at all?)

Tomb Blades and Destroyers will be our MVPs for Kill team.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tomb Blades and Destroyers will be our MVPs for Kill team.

Those are my feelings as well, though if played on a Zone Mortalis board I'd love me 3 wraiths with coils and 5 Flayed Ones (194).

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tomb Blades and Destroyers will be our MVPs for Kill team.

Too bad you can't have them both in the same kill team since its 0-1 Fast Attack.

I think a 5 TB + 5 Praetorian kill team is something to consider. Praetorians are mobile, fearless, and deadly.

col_impact wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Tomb Blades and Destroyers will be our MVPs for Kill team.

Too bad you can't have them both in the same kill team since its 0-1 Fast Attack.

I think a 5 TB + 5 Praetorian kill team is something to consider. Praetorians are mobile, fearless, and deadly.

Does Fearless matter in Kill team? I have yet to see the rules.

col_impact wrote:
I think a 5 TB + 5 Praetorian kill team is something to consider. Praetorians are mobile, fearless, and deadly.

Did you mean 3 Tomb Blades?
(5 TB + 5 Praets = 230, after all)
Though 3 TB + 5 Praets is 194, only leaving 6 points for upgrades.
What would be more necessary, Shields or Scopes? Can't have 'em both...

And for the Praetorians, keep the Rods on them, or go gun and blade?

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:
I think a 5 TB + 5 Praetorian kill team is something to consider. Praetorians are mobile, fearless, and deadly.

Did you mean 3 Tomb Blades?
(5 TB + 5 Praets = 230, after all)
Though 3 TB + 5 Praets is 194, only leaving 6 points for upgrades.
What would be more necessary, Shields or Scopes? Can't have 'em both...

And for the Praetorians, keep the Rods on them, or go gun and blade?

Scopes is more important than shields on the TBs imo.

If you run Praets I think you will want the gun and blade.


The more I think about it though, I think 9 fully equipped TBs (gauss, scopes, shields) is where it's at.

Also, 6 TBs and 5 Flayed Ones is a juicy mix. The flayed ones give you infiltrators with CC punch.

Yeah, I'm leaning towards a TB+FO mix.
Good combination of shooting and stabbing with plenty of room for customization with the specialist rules.
Really wish I could fit Destroyers and Wraiths in, as AP3 and inv saves are king in Kill Teams... but they're just too cost prohibitive to make a well balanced list with.

Is there something I missed, why on earth would you take a CAD over a decurion? You all seem to focus on the loss of a 4+ RP, but you are also loosing relentless and move through cover. Move through cover is wonderful for our infantry, and especially good for our jetbikes and destroyers. Relentless makes beamer wraiths useful, and also makes warriors a much larger threat when the enemy starts within 12 or so inches. You get all of that for a single tax unit, which is cheap and not terrible as such formation taxes go.

I'm not even sure what formations you would ditch begin free of a decrurions restrictions, because the harvest is still a great formation as is a d-cult. The only chaff to be cut from the reclamation legion is the immortals, and I just consider that the cost of doing business. If your looking to soften a list for fighting outside the big four, that's fine, but for competitive play it's insanity.

As for another thing I saw, why on earth would you bring a dozen wratihs to a tournament, super friends eat wraiths like popcorn, and any tournament larger than say six people is going to have a deep pockets space marine player who heard this list was awesome. Worse, Taking that much harvest limits your abilities to deal with death stars, which our strat is spread out, bubble wrap objectives, and feed him units you don't care about while you kick the crap out of the rest of his anemic forces. With a dozen wraiths you have no choice but to charge straight into the lions mouth and hope for amazing rolls.

I get that wraiths are awesome, but we are a top four army because we are flexible in our approach and tough as nails, we are not a top four army because our monsters can beat their monsters.

 Grimgold wrote:
Is there something I missed, why on earth would you take a CAD over a decurion? You all seem to focus on the loss of a 4+ RP, but you are also loosing relentless and move through cover. Move through cover is wonderful for our infantry, and especially good for our jetbikes and destroyers. Relentless makes beamer wraiths useful

Not that you weren't making good points, but I do want to clarify that the infantry based formations (Canoptek Harvest, Destroyer Cult, Judicator Battalion) all naturally come with Move Through Cover (and the Harvest comes with Relentless), meaning they don't need to be part of a Decurion to get those rules.
The only units that miss out on those additional rules when taken in CAD that would really need them are troops and Tomb Blades.

In the example given above with a CAD Orikan & Destroyer Lord package being added to a Harvest, it was just presented as a cheaper alternative to getting them into a Decurion without having to add the expensive units that would normally come with them if gone the traditional pure Decurion route.

Kill Team rules state no Heavy Support. So an upgrade from a Destroyer (Fast Attack) to a Heavy Destroyer (still inside the Fast Attack slot) should be allowed, correct?

(Heavy) Destroyer plus 5 Sword and Board or 6 Warscythe Lychguard.

Just an idea.

While, yes, that is totally doable... that does not sound like a very effective Kill Team.

One of the things that's interesting for us in Kill teams is the lack of a 'Character' model upgrade to units. The limit of 1 Fast Attack or 1 Elite is where a lot of players are going to get caught up for any army.

My Kill Team:

Destroyer (Leader)
5 Immortals
5 Flayed Ones

I've been back and forth about adding a Wraith in place of the the Destroyer. Having that 3i save would make it a difficult 'Leader' to take down for the equivalent of Slay the Warlord. Also toyed around with a few lists where I tried to fit in Scarabs (since we can have 3 wound models now). I also considered going Praetorians with Tomb Blades. A mobile, T5 force with some AP to deal with Marines (that's not going Destroyers). While I'm not currently running them, I think Tomb Blades are going to be strong simply because we don't have to equip them all the same, like our other units. I need to read the 'Specialist' options a bit closer, but I think a mix of Gauss/Tesla/Particle will make for an effective option in KT.

I tried to get in a Triarch Stalker. There is the QS issue with the Stalker and it's AV which might spark a debate if someone wants to play a Higher point KT game. The 4 non-vehicle requirement leaves only Tomb Blades as an option, and their weapons are already twin-linked so probably wouldn't be worth the effort to increase the BS. Flayed Ones won't take advantage of the BS (and they're also elites). Everything else came in over 200 points.

Ok so let's talk Destroyers. Which way to people consider to be the optimum way to run them? I love them and run a maxed out D Cult in a Decurian for that juicy 4+ reanimation. Two wound models really get a lot of mileage out of it but is it a good idea to max it? Or is the D Cult just as good in a CAD?

Also what wargear is best on the D Lord? I personally run him with Voidreaper, Phase Shifter and maybe a Phylactery if points allow.

I've considered 2 min D Cults with 3 Heavies in a Decurian but struggle to fit it all in under 1850.

Question for people;

When you are playing against competent generals, how long does the Canoptek Spyder last in a Canoptek Harvest in the game on average?

 Akar wrote:
My Kill Team:

Destroyer (Leader)
5 Immortals
5 Flayed Ones

I've been back and forth about adding a Wraith in place of the the Destroyer.

If you mean simply replacing the single Destroyer in that list with a single Wraith, I'm afraid you can't do that (they come in minimums of three, after all, so you'd have to lose the Immortals to free up enough points to fit the 3 Wraiths in... not sure if that's a good idea, as you'll have zero shooting at that point, but it's still a valid KT list).

Thx for pointing that out. Been so long since I fielded them that I forgot they were 3 to a unit. So I won't be doing that then.

With all models being individual units I don't think Wraiths are going to be terribly effective against some lists. Its too many attacks to kill one model at a time. So tactically I went with the Destroyer because the Jet Pack move and the two wounds wound make him difficult to get to. His shooting would become an issue when my opponent tries to maneuver around the Immortals and Flayed Ones.

Yeah, Immortals + Flayed Ones + Destroyer isn't too bad of an idea... though he's going to be a big target, and once he's gone you'll be out of heavy hitters.
Still, not bad.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Realized Kill Team talk might drown out other tactics discussion.
Made another thread for it, just in case -

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/701563.page

Everyone is on about the meta being knights. My meta is stupid warp spider spam.

Well here is my new list for a 1650 tourney

++ Necrons: Codex (2015) (Nec Decurion Detachment) (996pts) ++

+ Core (671pts) +

Reclamation Legion (671pts)
····Immortals
········5x Immortal [5x Tesla Carbine]
····Overlord [Phylactery, Resurrection Orb, Warscythe]
····Tomb Blades
········Tomb Blade [Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
········Tomb Blade [Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
········Tomb Blade [Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blades
········Tomb Blade [Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
········Tomb Blade [Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
········Tomb Blade [Shield Vanes, Twin-linked Gauss Blaster]
····Tomb Blades
········Tomb Blade [Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes]
········Tomb Blade [Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes]
········Tomb Blade [Particle Beamer, Shield Vanes]
····Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]
····Warriors [10x Necron Warrior]

+ Auxiliary (325pts) +

Canoptek Harvest (325pts) [Canoptek Spyder]
····Canoptek Scarabs [3x Canoptek Scarab]
····Canoptek Wraiths
········Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
········Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
········Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
········Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]
········Canoptek Wraith [Whip Coils]

++ Tau Empire: Codex (2015) (Formation Detachment) (653pts) ++

+ Formation (653pts) +

Riptide Wing (653pts)
····XV104 Riptide Battlesuits [Bonding Knife Ritual]
········Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Ion Accelerator, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Plasma Rifle]
····XV104 Riptide Battlesuits [Bonding Knife Ritual]
········Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Stimulant Injector, Twin-linked Smart Missile System]
····XV104 Riptide Battlesuits [Bonding Knife Ritual]
········Riptide Shas'vre [Early Warning Override, Heavy Burst Cannon, Twin-linked Smart Missile System, Velocity Tracker]

Though, to be fair, the Knight Meta counters the Warp Spider meta Bring a Knight, they can only glance the rear on 6s, and you can Avenger the things to death or Stomp them out.

Soooo bring your own Renegade Knight? Knights for all I guess is the new 40k. It would not take much to make that model more necron-ish kitbash.

I converted mine up all Necron-y. It's a very solid addition to any army that can take it, though I do personally hate the SHV/GC direction that the game is taking.

Requizen wrote:
I converted mine up all Necron-y. It's a very solid addition to any army that can take it, though I do personally hate the SHV/GC direction that the game is taking.

I agree. I've thought of kitbashing an Imperial Knight for my Crons as well, but I can't stand the idea of actually going through with it, since I despise most SHV/GCs.

 krodarklorr wrote:

Requizen wrote:
I converted mine up all Necron-y. It's a very solid addition to any army that can take it, though I do personally hate the SHV/GC direction that the game is taking.

I agree. I've thought of kitbashing an Imperial Knight for my Crons as well, but I can't stand the idea of actually going through with it, since I despise morst SHV/GCs.

Most? The only real competitive super heavy outside the Ravenant is the Imperial Knight...

I had the idea of allying chaos space marines as a fluffy way to shore up some holes. I don't mean the new traitor's hate stuff (although that could be useful) What does everyone think about running a CAD, with Be'lakor as am HQ, two squads of cultists as troops, and a greater brass scorpion of Khorne in the superheavy spot. The idea would be to proxy another model as Be'lakor and run him as the Void Dragon, and properly convert the brass scorpion to make it like a giant canoptek construct. This would probably have to be in larger points games (2000+) to make it a proper part of the force rather than having it be most of the points. How would you all support this in a list?

Requizen wrote:
Though, to be fair, the Knight Meta counters the Warp Spider meta Bring a Knight, they can only glance the rear on 6s, and you can Avenger the things to death or Stomp them out.

they can glance any facing because they have rending

If you really want CSM, either bring the formation with Heldrakes or pay the Warpsmith tax for 5 Maulerfiends to create some serious threat saturation.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If you really want CSM, either bring the formation with Heldrakes or pay the Warpsmith tax for 5 Maulerfiends to create some serious threat saturation.

At that point, is it really still a Necron list?

The only allies I see working for Necrons are Renegade Knights and maybe a Culexus Assassin. Since we don't really have a good way to transport a Clulexus we'd need to include a bunker and escape hatch. Expensive for what it does (shut down a psychic deathstar for a single turn before he gets greased.)
I see a Renegade Knight a much more of an option. Stomps are enough of a close-combat threat, and its shooting gives us some nice AP 3.

Maybe... MAYBE bring the CSM Cyclopia Cabal... You may have enough dice to block a deathstar's invisibility.

I think a Cabal Houndstar might be a reasonable addition to a Necron army - though at that point, it's more CSM/Necron, but that's fine too I suppose. Necrons would love the inclusion of both a speedy deathstar and powerful psychics.

But I have to contest calling adding CSM "fluffy". There is more written records of Imperials working alongside Necrons than there are CSM or even Renegades.

So, I don't know if I missed the discussion, post Alex Fennel's Nova showing, but what are people's thoughts on the Pylons w/Death Ray? Right now they strike me as answering soooo many different parts of the competitive meta.

Does anyone here have my personal experience with them before I run out and order some?

I'm an old Dwarf player from Fantasy/Sigmar, so I do love my artillery backfield, and wonder how that translates here.

What other lists showed up at Nova?

 CrownAxe wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Though, to be fair, the Knight Meta counters the Warp Spider meta Bring a Knight, they can only glance the rear on 6s, and you can Avenger the things to death or Stomp them out.

they can glance any facing because they have rending

Um, Eldar don't have Rending weapons (maybe 1 relic). Spiders have Monofilament and Shuriken weapons have Bladestorm. Neither of those rules provide any bonus against AV, as both of them affect the "to wound" roll of '6'.
Bringing a Knight is a decent tactic to counter Spider Spam. Sadly, however, a Knight is the preferred target for WKs and WG.

-

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
So, I don't know if I missed the discussion, post Alex Fennel's Nova showing, but what are people's thoughts on the Pylons w/Death Ray? Right now they strike me as answering soooo many different parts of the competitive meta.

Does anyone here have my personal experience with them before I run out and order some?

I'm an old Dwarf player from Fantasy/Sigmar, so I do love my artillery backfield, and wonder how that translates here.

Death Rays are too short ranged to be considered typical "artillery", you can't plop them in a corner and fire like you can with, say, a TFC. They have a decent max range but their effective range is somewhere around 35", and you want to be much closer to get the full effect out of them. They pair well with the Void Shield - deploy them both centrally and a bit forward and anything that gets close to entering the shield gets lasered.

They're interesting units. I've used them a couple times to varying success. Extremely strong - 2 S10 AP1 auto hits per ray is amazing, and you can draw them over Invisible units. They can't move and fire unless you give them Relentless or Slow and Purposeful however, which you can with Zahndrekh picking that Trait (or Anrakyr, but then you have to take Anrakyr, gross), so you can do a deathstar with him letting them move and shoot. Slap on a DLord to reroll 1s. I think that's what his list was like, just some sort of Star with them. I personally find Deathstars to be a bit of a pain to play correctly (and ours aren't nearly as hardy as some of the Imperial ones), so play at your own desire.

If you want just plain old artillery, they're an alright choice. You could also go for the Heat Ray version, which is a 2 shot S10 AP1 Small Blast with Melta, so slightly less reliable, but also at 36", so easier to sit back and fire with.

Did anyone get a copy of AF's list (or know what was in it)? I tried hunting him down on Sunday at Nova but he wasn't playing as far as I could tell...

Alex didn't play in Nova. 3rd/4th place was a Necron player named Tyler Devries and he played the following:

Tyler Devries
Necron CAD
-Destroyer Lord, Nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb
-5 Immortals
-5 Immortals
-3 Sentry Pylons, Death Rays

Royal Court:
-Anrakyr
-Obyron
-Orikan
-Lord, Solar Staff

Retaliation Legion
-Overlord, Veil of Darkness
-10 Warriors
-Triarch Stalker
-8 Scarabs

I kinda hate this list. If your scatter goes poorly, you can lose the game immediately. It's like Centstar but without all the psychic power bullcrap that made it a top list for a long time. But, if you like shooty deathstars, this is probably the only one that works for Crons.

I wonder how well the Retaliation went.

Probably depends on whether or not they were using the GW FAQ. If the Scarabs can charge when they come back, it's amazing. Otherwise it's still pretty good but not fantastic.

So basically, all the ICs attached to the Pylons and then teleported to the center of the table/away whenever was necessary?
...
What the hell did the rest of the list even do?

 skoffs wrote:
So basically, all the ICs attached to the Pylons and then teleported to the center of the table/away whenever was necessary?
...
What the hell did the rest of the list even do?

Sit on objectives, try to not die. That's what Deathstar lists are like.

I mean... how do those Pylons even work in certain regards? For example, if I drew a line carefully over a combat, since i'm not "shooting into" said combat, can I do that?

Pylons + Harvest Wraiths sound like a good opportunity to tie things up, and "shoot" them off the table. Likewise it seems like it would bypass Invis, etc.

Has there ever been errata for those Pylons? Just curious before I go in for... yikes... almost $250 for three of 'em. Do all three in a unit draw LOS from the same "point" you targetted? Do I even need to see where the line ends (rules as written suggest no).??

Requizen wrote:
Alex didn't play in Nova. 3rd/4th place was a Necron player named Tyler Devries and he played the following:

Tyler Devries
Necron CAD
-Destroyer Lord, Nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb
-5 Immortals
-5 Immortals
-3 Sentry Pylons, Death Rays

Royal Court:
-Anrakyr
-Obyron
-Orikan
-Lord, Solar Staff

Retaliation Legion
-Overlord, Veil of Darkness
-10 Warriors
-Triarch Stalker
-8 Scarabs

I kinda hate this list. If your scatter goes poorly, you can lose the game immediately. It's like Centstar but without all the psychic power bullcrap that made it a top list for a long time. But, if you like shooty deathstars, this is probably the only one that works for Crons.

According to Torrent of Fire AF came in 12th...

 necron99 wrote:

Requizen wrote:
Alex didn't play in Nova. 3rd/4th place was a Necron player named Tyler Devries and he played the following:

Tyler Devries
Necron CAD
-Destroyer Lord, Nightmare shroud, phase shifter, warscythe, res orb
-5 Immortals
-5 Immortals
-3 Sentry Pylons, Death Rays

Royal Court:
-Anrakyr
-Obyron
-Orikan
-Lord, Solar Staff

Retaliation Legion
-Overlord, Veil of Darkness
-10 Warriors
-Triarch Stalker
-8 Scarabs

I kinda hate this list. If your scatter goes poorly, you can lose the game immediately. It's like Centstar but without all the psychic power bullcrap that made it a top list for a long time. But, if you like shooty deathstars, this is probably the only one that works for Crons.

According to Torrent of Fire AF came in 12th...

Dunno, here are the NOVA brackets:

http://challonge.com/NOVAinvite2016

I thought the Invite was the main event but maybe there was another.

Ah, my fault - I was referring to the GT.

Also what's a Retaliation Legion? I don't have the 'dex with me but I don't remember that one...

 necron99 wrote:
Ah, my fault - I was referring to the GT.

Also what's a Retaliation Legion? I don't have the 'dex with me but I don't remember that one...

Retaliation Legion is the Start Collecting! formation. The Warriors and Scarabs can respawn if the Overlord is still alive. It was FAQd in the GW Drafts but still is good.

*Retribution

Again, please forgive me guys, but I want to make sure I understand this before dropping my entire Fall hobby budget on a unit of these Pylons. The internet/Google-fu has been surprisingly useless outside of the NOVA Faq, which makes them sound even stronger than the actual IA entry does (you just "pick" a spot in their range, as per their entry and the entire unit fires at that point... drawing their line).

So... they're artillery, sans relentless, meaning they would normally snap-shoot the Death-Ray... right? But since you aren't rolling any to-hit... that seems to be moot?

As such... why aren't we seeing more Deepstrike Suicide Pylons, in units of one?

Yes, they're 185pts a pop with Deepstrike, but I cannot imagine a world where that insane shooting isn't giving you back at least as many points, and giving you opponent fits of horror.

Edit: And does it bypass as much as it seems to? Like scattered templates it sounds like it bypasses jink, invis, Flickerjump from Warp-Spiders (again, they aren't being targetted with a shooting attack), probably an IK directional shield?

Deep Strike isn't useful. They can't move and shoot, as the BRB specifies that any weapon that doesn't roll to hit can't be Snap Shot. Walking them by themselves or Deep Striking them means they can't shoot for the turn, which makes them useless.

The list above adds a bunch of ICs to the unit. Anrakyr projects a bubble of Relentless, which allows them to move and shoot. Obyron and the Overlord bring teleports, so you jump them around the field. The Lord brings a Solar Staff, so they have pseudo-invis for a turn.

The strategy goes like this: Blob them all together, teleport down field, and then unleash hell. The Lord and Anrakyr can shoot at different unit than the Death Rays because drawing lines is stupid. Pop the Solar Staff so they can't be shot. Three Rays and an Arrow should significantly weaken even a WK, and if it charges you the next turn you have 3 Warscythes in the unit.

If they don't get locked in, you explode out the ICs - some go and slice things to death, others go hide on objectives. Anrakyr hangs out with the Pylons to let them shuffle around.

Taking "foot" or Deep Strike Pylons solo doesn't work. The Deathstar does.

Keep in mind that the Sentry Pylons are really only terrifying in the NOVA format. They are very nerfed in the ITC format.

I actually like the Gauss Exterminator in 6th when Interceptor fixed the problem with Skyfire.

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that the Sentry Pylons are really only terrifying in the NOVA format. They are very nerfed in the ITC format.

Can you share? I couldn't find anything about how the ITC adjusted them, but was asking. Do tell! Thanks.

Edit: Actually found it. It wasn't in their Necron FAQ, but rather their Imperial Armour section (which makes sense, i'm just a moron).

Clearly its been nerfed, because it keeps the hit counts far more limited then giving doubled hits for every single model the line covered, total. That said, if a battery of three of them rolls over even, oh... three guys within a given unit, that's still 18 Str 10, AP1 wounds, that can't be jinked, or flicker jumped away from etc...

It definitely sounds nerfed enough to not be outright broken, as per the NOVA rulings, but it does still sound like it could be competitive with those aforementioned Relentless/Teleports.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Keep in mind that the Sentry Pylons are really only terrifying in the NOVA format. They are very nerfed in the ITC format.

Can you share? I couldn't find anything about how the ITC adjusted them, but was asking. Do tell! Thanks.

Edit: Actually found it. It wasn't in their Necron FAQ, but rather their Imperial Armour section (which makes sense, i'm just a moron).

Clearly its been nerfed, because it keeps the hit counts far more limited then giving doubled hits for every single model the line covered, total. That said, if a battery of three of them rolls over even, oh... three guys within a given unit, that's still 18 Str 10, AP1 wounds, that can't be jinked, or flicker jumped away from etc...

It definitely sounds nerfed enough to not be outright broken, as per the NOVA rulings, but it does still sound like it could be competitive with those aforementioned Relentless/Teleports.

ITC/ATC/ETC



NOVA




In addition to generating more hits when you hit more than one unit, you can also hit units in combat in the Nova handling of the Sentry Pylon.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:
Deep Strike isn't useful. They can't move and shoot, as the BRB specifies that any weapon that doesn't roll to hit can't be Snap Shot. Walking them by themselves or Deep Striking them means they can't shoot for the turn, which makes them useless.

The list above adds a bunch of ICs to the unit. Anrakyr projects a bubble of Relentless, which allows them to move and shoot. Obyron and the Overlord bring teleports, so you jump them around the field. The Lord brings a Solar Staff, so they have pseudo-invis for a turn.

The strategy goes like this: Blob them all together, teleport down field, and then unleash hell. The Lord and Anrakyr can shoot at different unit than the Death Rays because drawing lines is stupid. Pop the Solar Staff so they can't be shot. Three Rays and an Arrow should significantly weaken even a WK, and if it charges you the next turn you have 3 Warscythes in the unit.

If they don't get locked in, you explode out the ICs - some go and slice things to death, others go hide on objectives. Anrakyr hangs out with the Pylons to let them shuffle around.

Taking "foot" or Deep Strike Pylons solo doesn't work. The Deathstar does.

If he blobs all of the ICs with the Pylons, the majority toughness of the unit drops from 7 to 5 so I am wondering if they weren't all in one blob. Majority toughness 7 is sick. My list runs a cryptek for chronometron and solar staff instead of the lord so you get majority toughness 7.

Addenda: If you read up on his match with Nanavati, it seems like his ICs got hit hard by a Warp Hunters D barrage that Nanavati walked over from a scarab unit to the solar staffed Pylon blob (otherwise the blast can't target it), so it sounds like he had them all blobbed together with majority toughness 5. If he had run a cryptek in place of the lord the list would have performed better in this juncture (5++ chronometron).

Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure he'll do that next time.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure he'll do that next time.

When you look at the stream, it seems they just played it wrong (and my understanding was wrong -- it's not exactly majority toughness when you shoot at an artillery unit). A single model of artillery grants its toughness to joined ICs for shooting.



They played it as if the D barrage weapon would ID the necron ICs, but as long as a gun remained, the ICs should have been immune to ID from the D weapon.

Also, the nerfing of the Retribution Phalanx post GW FAQ will also be a big hit to the list.

col_impact wrote:


If he blobs all of the ICs with the Pylons, the majority toughness of the unit drops from 7 to 5 so I am wondering if they weren't all in one blob. Majority toughness 7 is sick. My list runs a cryptek for chronometron and solar staff instead of the lord so you get majority toughness 7.

Addenda: If you read up on his match with Nanavati, it seems like his ICs got hit hard by a Warp Hunters D barrage that Nanavati walked over from a scarab unit to the solar staffed Pylon blob (otherwise the blast can't target it), so it sounds like he had them all blobbed together with majority toughness 5. If he had run a cryptek in place of the lord the list would have performed better in this juncture (5++ chronometron).

Not putting all the ICs in a unit would make it not a star. You need Obyron and the Overlord for the double teleport (in case the first one goes badly), you need Orikan for the Rerolls, you need the DLord for tanking and PE, you need Anrakyr for the Relentless, you need the Lord for Solar Staff. It doesn't work if you don't take all of them, or at least, without them you'll be T7 but weaker in a more significant manner.

Being T7 wouldn't matter for the D Barrage. Because it's D. 5++ would have been nice to have but it wouldn't have saved him, 5++ rerolling 1s isn't even equivalent to a 4++, and D can still roll 6s anyway.

Tyler is an internationally-known player and if he thought that 40 points for a worse IC but T7/5++ against shooting was better, I think he would have taken it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

col_impact wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure he'll do that next time.

When you look at the stream, it seems they just played it wrong (and my understanding was wrong -- it's not exactly majority toughness when you shoot at an artillery unit). A single model of artillery grants its toughness to joined ICs for shooting.

Spoiler:

SHOOTING AT ARTILLERY
If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least
one gun remains.

They played it as if the D barrage weapon would ID the necron ICs, but as long as a gun remained, the ICs should have been immune to ID from the D weapon.

Also, the nerfing of the Retribution Phalanx post GW FAQ will also be a big hit to the list.

THAT'S NOT HOW MIXED TOUGHNESS UNITS WORK. Please do not spread misinformation.

col_impact wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Hindsight is always 20/20. I'm sure he'll do that next time.

When you look at the stream, it seems they just played it wrong (and my understanding was wrong -- it's not exactly majority toughness when you shoot at an artillery unit). A single model of artillery grants its toughness to joined ICs for shooting.

Spoiler:

SHOOTING AT ARTILLERY
If shooting at an Artillery unit, the Toughness of the guns is always used whilst at least
one gun remains.

They played it as if the D barrage weapon would ID the necron ICs, but as long as a gun remained, the ICs should have been immune to ID from the D weapon.

That only applies when rolling to wound. Once wounds are allocated, you use the toughness of the model being wounded to determine ID.

Requizen wrote:


Tyler is an internationally-known player and if he thought that 40 points for a worse IC but T7/5++ against shooting was better, I think he would have taken it.

It was just an oversight on his part. A chronometron is an invaluable buff on a Pylon star and it's a mistake to not have it. Even internationally-known players are fallible.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Requizen wrote:


THAT'S NOT HOW MIXED TOUGHNESS UNITS WORK. Please do not spread misinformation.

What does this rule do then?




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Zimko wrote:


That only applies when rolling to wound. Once wounds are allocated, you use the toughness of the model being wounded to determine ID.

The rule sets the toughness of the model to 7 when you are shooting at it.

Instant Death is applied after modifiers.




I opened up a thread in YMDC. Please continue the discussion there.

There's no need to go to YMDC. The rules are very clear: for mixed toughness units, you use the majority toughness (and for artillery, you use the artillery toughness) for purposes of what to roll on the Strength<->Toughness chart. It does not change the toughness of the models.

So our club is running a 1K tournament and I thought, "what the hell, I'll run a nightbringer". I've owned the model for years and never played it. Just through it in naked into my list and discovered very quickly he's slow as dirt. Did a little research and found out how he should probably be kitted out although at 1k 470pts is a bit steep so I'm probably not going with the invulns on the burning one crypteks, etc.

Anyway, I started seeing YMDC type of posts on the net about GoD. Wow what a cool ability! But I'm sure I'll need some firepower to backup my claim that it's an ability and not a shooting attack since being an ability is where the magic is. So I went on a FAQ search as the most recent FAQ drop is all but banned at my club as being crazy stupid. Prior to that one I could only find one that must have come out right after 7 was released but before the Decurion dex was released. On the Black Library there is no FAQ listed for Necrons. I need something better than website posts to back me up. Other than hiring a lawyer any suggestions? I so want to shoot the crap out of a unit locked in combat or an invis unit

Requizen wrote:
There's no need to go to YMDC. The rules are very clear: for mixed toughness units, you use the majority toughness (and for artillery, you use the artillery toughness) for purposes of what to roll on the Strength<->Toughness chart. It does not change the toughness of the models.

The rule was unclear enough to merit a FAQ item in the Draft FAQ. One could say that many people frequently had this question!

ARTILLERY
Q: When firing at artillery units, does the gun’s Toughness value apply for the purposes of resolving Instant Death against any Independent Characters that have joined the unit?
A: No, Instant Death is worked out each time a Wound is allocated to an individual model.

col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:
There's no need to go to YMDC. The rules are very clear: for mixed toughness units, you use the majority toughness (and for artillery, you use the artillery toughness) for purposes of what to roll on the Strength<->Toughness chart. It does not change the toughness of the models.

The rule was unclear enough to merit a FAQ item in the Draft FAQ. One could say that many people frequently had this question!

ARTILLERY
Q: When firing at artillery units, does the gun’s Toughness value apply for the purposes of resolving Instant Death against any Independent Characters that have joined the unit?
A: No, Instant Death is worked out each time a Wound is allocated to an individual model.

The FAQ also had people asking whether or not you could take an army made 100% of buildings which should tell you all you need to know about how stupid the people asking the FAQs were.

If you read the rules for mixed toughness and ID you wouldn't even ask the question.

Requizen wrote:


The FAQ also had people asking whether or not you could take an army made 100% of buildings which should tell you all you need to know about how stupid the people asking the FAQs were.

If you read the rules for mixed toughness and ID you wouldn't even ask the question.

Are you claiming that GW writes rock-solid rules? It seems that only a madman would claim that GW writes rock-solid rules. Your statement gives me a chuckle.


If you read the rules you would realize they had a logical scoping problem (the Shooting at Artillery rule was applied 'if shooting . . .' and not 'while rolling to wound') so those literally following the rule would apply the rule to use the Toughness of the guns in the case of ICs and ID (since that is in the scope of 'if shooting' and there is a clear chain of permission to do so).

The question was asked and answered in the Draft FAQ because GW writes fuzzy inconsistent rules that frequently don't hold up to scrutiny and this was a case of an unclear rule.

col_impact wrote:

Requizen wrote:


The FAQ also had people asking whether or not you could take an army made 100% of buildings which should tell you all you need to know about how stupid the people asking the FAQs were.

If you read the rules for mixed toughness and ID you wouldn't even ask the question.

Are you claiming that GW writes rock-solid rules? It seems that only a madman would claim that GW writes rock-solid rules. Your statement gives me a chuckle.


If you read the rules you would realize they had a logical scoping problem (the Shooting at Artillery rule was applied 'if shooting . . .' and not 'while rolling to wound') so those literally following the rule would apply the rule to use the Toughness of the guns in the case of ICs and ID (since that is in the scope of 'if shooting' and there is a clear chain of permission to do so).

The question was asked and answered in the Draft FAQ because GW writes fuzzy inconsistent rules that frequently don't hold up to scrutiny and this was a case of an unclear rule.

I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say other than claiming that rules work the opposite of how they do. It's like you're just trying to confuse people.

Please, stop trolling threads.

Requizen wrote:


I honestly have no idea what you're trying to say other than claiming that rules work the opposite of how they do. It's like you're just trying to confuse people.

Please, stop trolling threads.

I am claiming that the rule is unclear. This can easily be proven since officially it had to be clarified. Not only does the GW Draft FAQ include it as a FAQ item but the ATC/ETC FAQ include it as a FAQ item as well.


You are claiming that the rule is clear and that people who say its unclear are trolling. This can be easily disproven by noting the inclusion of the item in two separate FAQs. Two separate rules authorities found it worthwhile to include it into their FAQs.



If you want to discuss this further feel free to PM me or take the discussion to YMDC where I have opened up a thread on it.

Yes, please.
No need to constantly fill the tactics thread with rule interpretation debate.

The pylons are even worst at Nova then people are lead to believe. The star that Tyler brought gets to teleport twice. Once while locked in combat and one only when disengaged. Meaning once you lock this star in Nova (specifically) you only have 1 chance to not get locked into combat again.

I point this out because the Pylon star, once locked in combat and uses it once time use Relic/item, it will remain locked in combat for the remainder of the game.

This happens for 2 reasons: (Because of the FW rules and the combination of Nova FAQs on this pylon star)
1) The pylon's unit can NOT swing at enemies it is in close combat with.
2) The enemy unit automatically hits the pylon star. You just roll to wound and the independent's tank the wounds for the pylons themselves. IE - The enemy gets to wound you for free and the ICs can't swing - there is no way the Necron player can get out of combat unless other Necron units join the fight.

I have no idea how or why there were so many pylon stars at Nova this year but with the nerfs Nova gave the pylon star, it is honestly one of the worst ones out there.

2 of Nova's nerfs:
1) The portion of the Canoptek Artillery special rule forcing enemies to consolidate after each round of combat is ignored while an Independent Character is joined to a Sentry Pylon unit.
2) If an independent character is joined to a unit of Sentry Pylons the unit can be locked in combat and they automatically get hit.

To elaborate on the first nerf, the pylons have a rule in the IA12 book that states pylons that are locked in combat with an enemy unit get a free consolidation rule at the end of the ASsault Phase that allows them to move 1" away from the enemy unit. However, this rule (due to the Nova ruling) makes it so the pylons and the ICs are locked in combat.

There is an additional rule that states ICs that are attached to the Pylons cannot attack.

Pre-Nova nerfs and rules as written, the pylon star was untarpittable (never able to be locked due to the free 1" consolidation). It always allowed the ICs to not get hit for free (similiar to how normal artillery crew act - Weapon Skill versus Weapon Skill)

As of right now, in Nova, the Pylon star only has one relic that allows them to teleport out of combat. After that, it will forever be locked with no chance of escaping (without a thirdy party's help).

Please let me know if you have the exact wording for the IA12's Pylon rules. I'm pretty sure all of my information is correct.

Edit: This post was in response to page before this. @NewTruthNeomaximMade - I wouldn't buy these unless you are using RAW and there are no nerfs to them. But Nova and ITC nerfed them pretty hard. That being said - I'd save your money

... well that's incredibly stupid.
How did anyone decide ruling it so attached ICs couldn't attack made any kind of sense?

It's hard to even talk about using them as a reasonable option since FW has basically decided that Necrons don't exist (probably because they're not HH models). Nightshroud got an honorable mention in the DftS update but they've made no move to do anything about the IA12 Necron units since the new Necron update made all of them either invalid or impossible to use.

Saythings wrote:


There is an additional rule that states ICs that are attached to the Pylons cannot attack.

This is not correct. The Pylons cannot attack in combat but the attached ICs can still attack. Both the Pylons and the ICs get locked in combat and are automatically hit however. So after the Veil is spent the Pylon star rests its hopes on 3 war scythes.

col_impact wrote:

Saythings wrote:


There is an additional rule that states ICs that are attached to the Pylons cannot attack.

This is not correct. The Pylons cannot attack in combat but the attached ICs can still attack. Both the Pylons and the ICs get locked in combat and are automatically hit however. So after the Veil is spent the Pylon star rests its hopes on 3 war scythes.

I believe it reads along the lines of the Pylon's unit, or the unit of the Pylons can not attack. Therefore, when you attach ICs to it, you lose the ability to swing. Either way, that's how the ruling was at Nova via emails pre-event. My gaming group stopped running the list after they added the FAQ I listed above to their official FAQ. We were the ones that asked the questions and that's how they ruled it.

I don't have the IA12 book, so I wouldn't be able to quote it. But either way, the star is neutered. I just didn't want anyone to go around thinking it's broken with ITC/Nova rulings in effect. Without the nerfs, it's a deadly star.

Saythings wrote:

col_impact wrote:

Saythings wrote:


There is an additional rule that states ICs that are attached to the Pylons cannot attack.

This is not correct. The Pylons cannot attack in combat but the attached ICs can still attack. Both the Pylons and the ICs get locked in combat and are automatically hit however. So after the Veil is spent the Pylon star rests its hopes on 3 war scythes.

I believe it reads along the lines of the Pylon's unit, or the unit of the Pylons can not attack. Therefore, when you attach ICs to it, you lose the ability to swing. Either way, that's how the ruling was at Nova via emails pre-event. My gaming group stopped running the list after they added the FAQ I listed above to their official FAQ. We were the ones that asked the questions and that's how they ruled it.

I don't have the IA12 book, so I wouldn't be able to quote it. But either way, the star is neutered. I just didn't want anyone to go around thinking it's broken with ITC/Nova rulings in effect. Without the nerfs, it's a deadly star.

The IA12 book says 'Canoptek Artillery that are charged' not 'the Canoptek Artillery unit that is charged'.

Can you post the e-mail response you got?

@col_impact, I'll ask my friend if he still has the email, it was several months ago when we cut the pylons outta "Nova-use".

It doesn't have to say "Canoptek Artillary unit", it is implied when they are attached as a unit - at least by Nova's definition. Which is why they added the FAQ " If an independent character is joined to a unit of Sentry Pylons the unit can be locked in combat and they automatically get hit.".

The ICs joined the "Canoptek Artillary". Since there are no grounds on crewless Artillery in the BRB, FW came up with their own rules. Hence, the free consolidation away from the Artillery at the end of the phase. When you allow ICs to join it, they follow the same rules. They can't attack and they automatically are hit.

This is all an interpretation of course, one that was made by Nova. I don't agree or disagree with any rulings from any event. I simply play by their rules and build the appropriate lists. In the case of Nova, Necrons got the short end of the stick with their only "viable" deathstar. I'm just surprised someone made it to top tables with it.

Not really surprised too much - given how many people probably didn't question how this particular star works.

I definitely appreciate the conversation my question generated, and it has given me a lot to mull over. That said, I can't see how people would be so quick to dismiss the, even nerfed, lists that used these, as the proof of its validity is sort of right there. At NOVA, among the top two competitive 40k events we have, Pylons held their own and ended up in a Top-8 list. It can't have been that ineffectual, right? :-p

Saythings wrote:
@col_impact, I'll ask my friend if he still has the email, it was several months ago when we cut the pylons outta "Nova-use".

It doesn't have to say "Canoptek Artillary unit", it is implied when they are attached as a unit - at least by Nova's definition. Which is why they added the FAQ " If an independent character is joined to a unit of Sentry Pylons the unit can be locked in combat and they automatically get hit.".

The ICs joined the "Canoptek Artillary". Since there are no grounds on crewless Artillery in the BRB, FW came up with their own rules. Hence, the free consolidation away from the Artillery at the end of the phase. When you allow ICs to join it, they follow the same rules. They can't attack and they automatically are hit.

This is all an interpretation of course, one that was made by Nova. I don't agree or disagree with any rulings from any event. I simply play by their rules and build the appropriate lists. In the case of Nova, Necrons got the short end of the stick with their only "viable" deathstar. I'm just surprised someone made it to top tables with it.

Not really surprised too much - given how many people probably didn't question how this particular star works.

Their reasoning would imply that ICs attached to Wraiths get Wraithflight and all sorts of other shenanigans. The IC Special Rules rule says that special rules of a unit do not automatically confer unless specified as in stubborn (ie using clause like 'a unit that contains at least one model with').

Still, you can't argue with a specific and official pre-event ruling on the matter even if its not consistent with their rulings elsewhere.

It would be cool if you could track down that e-mail so we could see exactly what NOVA said pre-event. If you watch the Nova stream you see that the players were talking about the star as if the IC warscythes mattered.

col_impact wrote:

Saythings wrote:
@col_impact, I'll ask my friend if he still has the email, it was several months ago when we cut the pylons outta "Nova-use".

It doesn't have to say "Canoptek Artillary unit", it is implied when they are attached as a unit - at least by Nova's definition. Which is why they added the FAQ " If an independent character is joined to a unit of Sentry Pylons the unit can be locked in combat and they automatically get hit.".

The ICs joined the "Canoptek Artillary". Since there are no grounds on crewless Artillery in the BRB, FW came up with their own rules. Hence, the free consolidation away from the Artillery at the end of the phase. When you allow ICs to join it, they follow the same rules. They can't attack and they automatically are hit.

This is all an interpretation of course, one that was made by Nova. I don't agree or disagree with any rulings from any event. I simply play by their rules and build the appropriate lists. In the case of Nova, Necrons got the short end of the stick with their only "viable" deathstar. I'm just surprised someone made it to top tables with it.

Not really surprised too much - given how many people probably didn't question how this particular star works.

Their reasoning would imply that ICs attached to Wraiths get Wraithflight and all sorts of other shenanigans. The IC Special Rules rule says that special rules of a unit do not automatically confer unless specified as in stubborn (ie using clause like 'a unit that contains at least one model with').

Still, you can't argue with a specific and official pre-event ruling on the matter even if its not consistent with their rulings elsewhere.

It would be cool if you could track down that e-mail so we could see exactly what NOVA said pre-event. If you watch the Nova stream you see that the players were talking about the star as if the IC warscythes mattered.

Ahh, my mistake. They can attack. Truly sorry. Finally heard back from my friend. They just get auto hit with no free consolidation (as we mentioned above). Big mix up on my part. His email only contained the 2 FAQs that I previously mentioned. When we were play testing the pylon star we were using RAW and they couldn't be locked (due to the free 1") and the ICs were swinging like normal Artillery Crew would do. After we received the FAQ responses from Nova, we stopped running it as it was a lot easier for the Necron's opponents to just lock them in combat for the rest of the game.

That being said, any dedicated unit with a decent psychic power (invis/veil) or decent invulnerable will be able to tarpit them after the one-use teleport out of combat.

@NewTruthNeomaxim, the list is fine. I never thought the list was bad or the pylon star was bad. I just wouldn't personally bring it to Nova. There are too many Deathstars and scarier lists that (imo) are stronger then the pylon star. I've only been to Nova 3 times so far and each time it seems more of a match up game, then a strategy game. Obviously skill has something to do with it, but match up via army comp and missions are much more important - unfortunately.

I even went 3-0 with Orks this year before running into a 2nd Tau list (on the 4th round). It was Points and Regions (my list's favorite mission-type), I just went against Target Lock heavy Tau. I was one good match up away from Top16. My list was a little unusual and does better against CC stars/Elite Army-types but the match ups are the key to doing well in Nova.

Sorry about the confusion, col_impact! Didn't mean to derail the conversation. My opinion towards the star hasn't changed. I still think it's too weak to bring to Nova/ITC missions, but at least those ICs get there attacks - albeit they probably won't do much against proper melee.

Requizen wrote:
It's hard to even talk about using them as a reasonable option since FW has basically decided that Necrons don't exist (probably because they're not HH models). Nightshroud got an honorable mention in the DftS update but they've made no move to do anything about the IA12 Necron units since the new Necron update made all of them either invalid or impossible to use.

Yeah. It's pretty frustrating. I'd love to buy some more FW Necron stuff, but if I can't field them, having more than 1 of anything is pointless.

We don't even have models for the two named HQs in that book!

I hope this is the right place for this.

I'm in the process of building my necron army and I've decided that I want a destroyer cult in there. I like the models and I want my army to be very shooty. I'm planning on potentially pairing it with a judicator battalion in a decurion because I want the synergy between the triarch stalker and heavy destroyers. Just looking at the options, it looks like I will always need a Destroyer Lord and 6 Destroyers. Beyond that, what composition of destroyers/heavy destroyers would you initially buy? I play against a lot of marine variants. I remember reading one person suggesting a max squad of destroyers, two squads of 3/1 and another squad of heavies. I've read a lot of suggestion of 3 squads of 2/1 and a max squad of heavies to basically max out on heavy destroyers. I guess I'm looking for feedback from people who have played with or against the formation. How would you build it and why?

I usually run a min D Cult with 3 units of 3 regular destroyers. This allows me to put more points into supporting multiple units of Tomb Blades and a Wraithstar.

Tomb Blades are really good!



Lots of people match up some kind of D Cult with one or two Canoptek Harvests for a strong yet predictable list.



If you are wanting to build a gunline Necron list and are really looking to keep your Stalker(s) alive you should consider running a single/dual CAD and a Void Shield Generator or a Skyshield Landing Pad.

Skoffs had an interesting list to this effect. http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/676964.page

You could probably switch a few points around to get a Judicator Battalion in there.

If you're running a Cult, you might not need to go for a full HD squad. With their shooting being do effective, two is usually enough to take car of vehicles. Often times the third shot might just go to waste.
If you keep a unit of 5 regulars together they can work well as your MEQ hunters.
Having the other two units mixed with 2-3 regulars and 1 heavy works as support for the main two units, in case someone needs help finishing something off. Otherwise they can work with each other to eliminate basically anything you point them at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Note: DO NOT keep your Destroyer Lord with your Destroyers.
He is of very little use to them.
He is better off attaching to something that needs help improving their shooting or a close combat deterrent (or CC help, in the case of Wraiths or Lychguard).

You have come to the right place.
Destroyer cult is very shooty. Destroyers and Heavy Destroyers want to shoot at different things... keep them in different units. I don't have enough trust that a single Heavy Destroyer shot (even with PE) will get what I need it to. I generally don't think that they are worth their points, and 180 for three of them seems excessive.)
Regular Destroyers are going to kill your opponents marines with ease. You'll either want to run minimum 3 or more than 5 for morale reasons. (At 4, you'll need to take a test if you lose one... which is not the case for either 3 or 5+).
I haven't played with Praetorians... not much advice there for you. I don't even own a Stalker (they were bad... really bad when I got into Necrons. Now, not so much).
I can talk about the Decurion however. I used to run 2 units of 10 warriors in Ghost Arks, but the FAQ makes me sad. I've switched to 3 units of 10 on foot, and had better results and freed up more points doing it.
I run a minimum Tesla Immortal squad for camping backfield objectives. If you spend more points here, you really need them to do work, and that means Gauss in the main part of the attack.
I only have three Tombblades... spending a few more points here is always good. The 3 or 5+ rule applies here too, and I wish that I had 2-3 units of them. People always underestimate how durable they are.
I typically run a lychstar. 7-8 Lychguard with swords and 3++ because I don't trust myself to tank with the characters like I should. Add in a Royal Court with Obyeron and Orikan and you can have a lot of fun. Just make sure to have 2 Veils... not optimized, but it prevents them from being stranded somewhere. Books could be written here, but you aren't interested in a Lychstar.
For fun, I run a bunch of Flayed Ones and Imotekh to fill out my points.

My flgs runs with Death from the Skies. Quite a few players are running air power.
So my question is are there any anti-air options for Necrons? Even the fluff anti-air unit the Obolisk does not have sky fire and hopping for your opponent to roll a one is not a viable strategy.

The FW Artillery with the S9 Gauss weapon. They can take anything once you upgrade to IWND and will fire enough shots to cause distress. I'm surprised you're having lots of Planes though. They hardly show up at my store at the moment.

Entire codex lacks skyfire, now.
Even our own planes.
If you don't have access to Sentry Pylons the best you can do is tons of Warriors and hope you can roll lots of sixes twice in a row.
>:[

Pyrothem wrote:
My flgs runs with Death from the Skies. Quite a few players are running air power.
So my question is are there any anti-air options for Necrons? Even the fluff anti-air unit the Obolisk does not have sky fire and hopping for your opponent to roll a one is not a viable strategy.

Our best anti-air option is to ignore them, flyers can't do enough damage to us to warrant spending points to counter them, and outside of a few off cases they can't claim objectives. If they are spending enough points to get formations and what not, you'll be 400 or 500 points up in the ground fight.

I am going to echo what has been already been said about flyers. Just ignore them.

If you actually start losing to flyers and are looking into AA, use Tomb Blades. Lots of em. They can get around the jink save.

Against air targets, since tomb blades have twin-linked and ignore cover, they are as effective as the equivalent amount of immortals shooting at a skimmer vehicle, which isn't awesome but they will plink away at hull points and give you the ability to focus all your fire on any particularly troublesome flyers and delete them.

Plus, tomb blades have the maneuverability to keep in the blind side of zooming flyers and deny them chances at shooting back. And tomb blades can go about playing the mission while the flyers in the air are lagging behind on points.

And tomb blades are by no means dedicated anti-air so you aren't weakening your list at all by running lots of them. They are the true swiss army knife in the codex.

I'm going to back track a page or 2 and talk about my experience with the sentry star. Warning wall of text.

I've run 6 variants of the sentrystar at 6 different tournaments in my area, ranging from 1 day/3 game events to 2 day/6 games, all using the ITC faq, and ignoring the draft faq(when it came out).

My first run was after I was flipping through a friends copy of imperial armour, and realized the pylons could put out a ton of hurt if they could be kept alive. With this in mind, I scrolled through the internets for ideas.
My first list, and the most effective; was a CAD and a royal court
3 Pylons with the beam
Overlord, nemesor Zahndrek(warlord for traits), Orikan, Szeras, Obyron
2 units of 6 immortals
and 3 units of 4 wraiths(whip coils).

Up to this point no one in my meta had even seen these pylons, nevermind knew how they worked. (First turn always took forever because of explanations)
I tabled an eldar scat bike spam list on my first of 3 games.
Forced a concede against drop pod wulfen(Bottom of turn 1 he drop pods around me, top of turn 2 I teleport away and using Zahndrek for relentless, start drawing lines through his now footslogging wolves. When he got close again, I used my second teleport to go back and repeat)
Lost by a point to a demi company. This loss should have been a win but I made a bad tactical call turn 5 and went for killing things instead of sitting on an objective, I handed the win over, and went from 1st to 6th or something similar.

After various other tournaments I've dropped the wraiths, and replaced them with 2 retribution phalanxes, I've stripped down the Royal court and replaced with a conclave(mostly because I enjoy playing it.)
I've even included 2 10 man units of Praetorians to see how they would do.

The first list I tried with the wraiths was by far the most effective. 12 Wraiths allowed me to tie up units and provide a bubble around the sentry star leaving me to kill at my leisure, they are durable enough not to crumble but will usually die after I've handled everything else in my opponents list, leaving me to mop up whatever is left.

Unfortunately, in my meta, the sentry star is no longer viable. When I started playing it, I could easily tank wounds with the characters and go from there. But lately in a 20 person tournament, there will be at least 6 people playing Eldar with enough ranged D that my last game against 1 I was tabled turn 2. And I would always have to play against at least 1 of these lists.
Demi Company also tends to run a train on this list if played by an aggressive player. There is simply too many things to kill, and you tend to lose the objective game.
Having a single unit that costs as much as a sentry star does no longer works around here.

It was fun while it lasted though

^
... why Szeras?

 skoffs wrote:
^
... why Szeras?

Exactly my question. That's a spot that could be for a Destroyer Lord instead!

Thanks for the advice. I will just take the ghost ark out and fill the points with Tomb Blades. The damn things get dropped melta popped or blast weapons take out the warriors inside on turn 1.5 or 2 every damn game.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
^
... why Szeras?

Exactly my question. That's a spot that could be for a Destroyer Lord instead!

Also, since the Overlord has the veil, the list is missing a solar staff which is critical to fighting alpha strike lists or gunline lists.

And of course a chronometron, also missing, would have helped against the ranged D problem.

farshot9 wrote:
I'm going to back track a page or 2 and talk about my experience with the sentry star. Warning wall of text.

I've run 6 variants of the sentrystar at 6 different tournaments in my area, ranging from 1 day/3 game events to 2 day/6 games, all using the ITC faq, and ignoring the draft faq(when it came out).

My first run was after I was flipping through a friends copy of imperial armour, and realized the pylons could put out a ton of hurt if they could be kept alive. With this in mind, I scrolled through the internets for ideas.
My first list, and the most effective; was a CAD and a royal court
3 Pylons with the beam
Overlord, nemesor Zahndrek(warlord for traits), Orikan, Szeras, Obyron
2 units of 6 immortals
and 3 units of 4 wraiths(whip coils).

Up to this point no one in my meta had even seen these pylons, nevermind knew how they worked. (First turn always took forever because of explanations)
I tabled an eldar scat bike spam list on my first of 3 games.
Forced a concede against drop pod wulfen(Bottom of turn 1 he drop pods around me, top of turn 2 I teleport away and using Zahndrek for relentless, start drawing lines through his now footslogging wolves. When he got close again, I used my second teleport to go back and repeat)
Lost by a point to a demi company. This loss should have been a win but I made a bad tactical call turn 5 and went for killing things instead of sitting on an objective, I handed the win over, and went from 1st to 6th or something similar.

After various other tournaments I've dropped the wraiths, and replaced them with 2 retribution phalanxes, I've stripped down the Royal court and replaced with a conclave(mostly because I enjoy playing it.)
I've even included 2 10 man units of Praetorians to see how they would do.

The first list I tried with the wraiths was by far the most effective. 12 Wraiths allowed me to tie up units and provide a bubble around the sentry star leaving me to kill at my leisure, they are durable enough not to crumble but will usually die after I've handled everything else in my opponents list, leaving me to mop up whatever is left.

Unfortunately, in my meta, the sentry star is no longer viable. When I started playing it, I could easily tank wounds with the characters and go from there. But lately in a 20 person tournament, there will be at least 6 people playing Eldar with enough ranged D that my last game against 1 I was tabled turn 2. And I would always have to play against at least 1 of these lists.
Demi Company also tends to run a train on this list if played by an aggressive player. There is simply too many things to kill, and you tend to lose the objective game.
Having a single unit that costs as much as a sentry star does no longer works around here.

It was fun while it lasted though

Thanks for that, man! I've actually been playing 40k long enough that i'm just always hungry for something that behaves VERY differently. As such, even with the major competitive nerfs, I decided to go for it, and try a Pylonstar. At the absolute worst I might take one or two as back-field pieces in friendlier games without the Deathstar element. I just had a Forgeworld order ready to go, holidays and birthday coming up, and a desire to try something weird. :-p

Farshot9,

I wonder how useful you found running Zandrekh over Anrakyr? I am testing out lists with one or the other and both.

The big downside of not having Anrakyr is losing the relentless on turn one and the possibility of a turn one alpha strike, which is a big deal in and of itself but is especially a big deal when going against psychic deathstars.

That loss would need to be offset by the gain Zandrekh provides the list, especially in the ability to steal USR (Counter Attack, Furious Charge, Stealth, Hit & Run, Tank Hunter, and Split Fire). Hit & Run and Split Fire are especially useful to the pylon star and Tank Hunter can be very useful in certain matchups. Hit & Run basically reads roll a die. If you roll a 1 or a 2 you get to leave combat without blowing one of your teleports. On average it gives you one more 'teleport'.

Did you find that Zandrekh was boosting the pylon star with juicy USRs a lot in your match-ups?

No, but seriously, I want to know:
What was Szeras bringing that contributed to the Sentry-Star?

Sorry for the delay, I was out all day.

Szeras didn't actually last very long, he was one of the first changes I made to this list, I should have clarified. The line of thinking I had on including him though was for guaranteed 4+++ reanimate against instant death if and when I decided to split the characters from the pylons. As well as providing 4+++ reanimate to the squads of immortals used to bubble wrap against turn 1 charges.
This did turn out to be pretty pointless so he got axed on the first rewrite.

Having Zahndrek as opposed to Anrakyr for relentless does cost you the first turn, but I found that granting the characters all of the other special rules helps if you do get charged, but more importantly, his choice of warlord trait gives you a lot more flexability than anrakyr. Especially for maelstrom style games


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@col_impact.
Having hit and run never actually came up in any of my games. But it was one of the reasons for including him.

Not bringing a solar staff was actually deliberate. I wanted my opponents to be afraid of the star and focus fire it as much as possible so I could tank wounds with the characters, leaving the rest of my army untouched. I was always concerned that running a single unit that expensive would leave me without enough of an army to play objectives after 2 turns, if what little else I had was drawing fire.

This plan worked surprisingly well until the meta started including so much ranged D the immature said the dick jokes were getting old.

As for the 5++, I can't pass 5 up saves. It just doesn't happen. 3 up and 4 up I can't fail, I'm infamous for it around here. But I fail 5++ so dependably that I never bothered to include it.

The rest of the army SHOULD be touched though. Wraiths are meant to be distractions.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Wraiths are meant to be distractions.

I wish more Necron players understood this.
(... just so long as our opponents don't catch on)

I'm actually thinking of running the Sentrystar in a CAD (with the bare minimum on HQs, so Orikan, Anrakyr, and a D-Lord with the Veil), along with a Canoptek Harvest, and Riptide Wing.

In that scenario, i'd absolutely love my opponent to be firing at the Wraiths as dying for me is their sole purpose. :-p

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I'm actually thinking of running the Sentrystar in a CAD (with the bare minimum on HQs, so Orikan, Anrakyr, and a D-Lord with the Veil)

Did you forget to include Obyron in that list?
(if CAD HQ = D.Lord, that means you still need to fill the Lord slot in the Royal Court's requirement)

[Everyone else is talking about it so I thought I'd give it a shot]:
Question, though-
Is it worth giving the Pylons Sep.Scarabs?

I actually meant Obyron instead of Orikan. :-) I'm usually not a Necron player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to your question about Scarabs... I would say no. Its a hefty point sink, and if the Pylons are already taking wounds, they're probably not living long enough to get much out of some IWND rolls.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I actually meant Obyron instead of Orikan. :-) I'm usually not a Necron player.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
As to your question about Scarabs... I would say no. Its a hefty point sink, and if the Pylons are already taking wounds, they're probably not living long enough to get much out of some IWND rolls.

I disagree. When you're deciding to throw the wounds on them, it gives them a chance to start regenerating. Same reason I'd use a Phylactery on all the HQ'S I can.

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
I actually meant Obyron instead of Orikan. :-) I'm usually not a Necron player.

Well, just FYI, if you're taking a Royal Court in a CAD you need a total of four HQs minimum:
1 of any kind to fulfill the CAD requirement.
Then for the Royal Court requirements you'll need,
1x Overlord
1-3x Lord
1-3x Cryptek

So a setup of
- Destroyer Lord (CAD)
- Anrakyr (RC Overlord)
- Obyron (RC Lord)
- Orikan (RC Cryptek)
works out perfectly fine and has the benefit of being somewhat effective (some would argue Zahndrekh would be better to take instead of Anrakyr, but if you want the Alpha Strike you'd need Anrakyr).

Don't forget an extra regular Lord carrying the Solar Staff.

I was just talking about minimum requirements as far as formation and detachment goes, as his setup he had posted would have been illegal otherwise.
...
Though, yes, highly suggested that you take the Sun Staff.

Then i'd probably run a cheaper Lord w/Staff in the stead of Orikan, who I suppose only tends to earn his points in the later stages of the game when he can hulk-out?

NewTruthNeomaxim wrote:
Then i'd probably run a cheaper Lord w/Staff in the stead of Orikan, who I suppose only tends to earn his points in the later stages of the game when he can hulk-out?

Orikan makes your characters immune to small arms fire. Zahndrekh and any character with the Nightmare Shroud is 2+ rerolling against anything that's not AP2 which is basically invincible, and even in ITC where that rerolls into a 4+ you're going 2+ -> 4+ -> 4+ (maybe reroll if you brought a rez orb). That's huge, it doubles your survivability. And even 3+ gets a solid boost out of it.

However - it is possible to run without him. If you have a Solar Staff and a couple Orbs, you're pretty darn tough coming out of the Alpha Strike. It lets you shuffle points a little bit (a base Cryptek with Solar is only 80), but in the long run he's a very solid character to add to any Star. Remember he does nothing to help the survivability of the Pylons themselves, as they don't have Reanimation, and if you split the characters apart after deep striking, his effectiveness is somewhat mitigated.

That makes a ton of sense, but at least in our meta i've put a lot of thought into weighting my threats in such a way where anything less than a top-tier opponent feels confused by where they should be putting their shots.

Its a calculated risk, but I feel like trying to run this alongside Riptide Wing benefits from not making the Sentry-star feel like the one and only thing worthy of eradication.

Edit: A small added perk is running it at majority toughness 7, what with all those T values spread all over the place, and only the Pylons having three models with it. I mean, at that point even Oberyn is tanking at T7 with a 2+, and LOS if the volume of shots taken gets sketchy for his meager wounds.

The min load-out for the Sentry Star is really

Anrakyr or Zandrekh for 12" relentless bubble.
Obyron
Lord or Cryptek with Veil


The optional but very potent add-ons are:
Cryptek with solar staff and chronometron
Upgrading the Lord to a Destroyer Lord

The Destroyer Lord doesn't do much for the Sentry Star per se except making Anrakyr's tachyon arrow auto-hit (as opposed to hit on 2+) and making the Star auto-wound (as opposed to wound on 2+). He is mostly included to be able to strategically break off from the Sentry Star (eg counter-assault a unit that is threatening an assault next turn or breaking off and wreaking havoc on units nearby that his warscythe and T6 can handle easily). Also his T6 makes it easier to keep the entire Sentry Star majority toughness 7 which benefits the unit if its assaulted.

As your Sentry Star grows in size you are going to get more mileage out of these inclusions:
Orikan
Res Orbs
a Nightmare Shroud on an Overlord or the Destroyer Lord

col_impact wrote:
The min load-out for the Sentry Star is really

Anrakyr or Zandrekh for 12" relentless bubble.
Obyron
Lord or Cryptek with Veil


The optional but very potent add-ons are:
Cryptek with solar staff and chronometron
Upgrading the Lord to a Destroyer Lord

This gets tricky, in that Anrakyr/Zahndrekh + Obyron + Cryptek = Royal Court, but a Destroyer Lord can never be part of a Royal Court.
(easily rectified, however, as to get Pylons in the first place you have to be using a CAD, so he can just be the designated HQ from that. The above is merely a clarification for new players who might not realize that they can't simply replace the Lord in the RC with a Destroyer Lord.)

I ended up going with 9 regular destroyers, 2 heavies and a lord to start. I figured I can always get another 3 heavies if I really want em later. Thanks for the feedback!

Looks like you can still use the Eternity Gate of a Monolith on the turn it arrives by Deep Strike as long as it is in the Living Tomb formation.

Just mentioning it because I recall people in this thread (myself included) lamenting the loss of the ability of the Monolith to Deep Strike in and immediately use the Eternity Gate on the turn it arrives.

col_impact wrote:
Looks like you can still use the Eternity Gate of a Monolith on the turn it arrives by Deep Strike as long as it is in the Living Tomb formation.

Just an attempt to get people to buy the Vault/Obelisk.
"We took away those cool abilities everyone liked on the Monolith... but look! You still get the drop pod function as long as you take this huge expensive model, too!"

 skoffs wrote:

col_impact wrote:
Looks like you can still use the Eternity Gate of a Monolith on the turn it arrives by Deep Strike as long as it is in the Living Tomb formation.

Just an attempt to get people to buy the Vault/Obelisk.
"We took away those cool abilities everyone liked on the Monolith... but look! You still get the drop pod function as long as you take this huge expensive model, too!"

Lol.

Well. It does mean that Jon Comacho's list is still formidable.

Egyptian Space Zombie wrote:
I ended up going with 9 regular destroyers, 2 heavies and a lord to start. I figured I can always get another 3 heavies if I really want em later. Thanks for the feedback!

I just have a quick followup question. I was just gifted a destroyer cult to go along with the one that I bought. I now have double of what I quoted above. Is it worth building that many destroyers or should I keep some of them to trade for other things that I need. They are a gift so I would feel bad about dumping all of them. I've been going over it in my head and playing 1000 points of destroyers seems excessive. I also now have 2 d lord sprues as well. How much of this would you actually build and how much would you keep to sell/trade?

2 D/Lords sounds delishous

Double Destroyer Cult is not something that I would run in normal games. It sounds like fun though!

I actually want to try double DCult Decurion for my next tourney list. It's one of the best formations in the book imo (if not the best).

I would totally go to a 1k tournament with a single DCult.

So let me get this straight: you've got 24 Destroyers at the moment?
...
My god, the fun I could have with that... Double D-cult for daaaays.

[just threw together a 1850 list with a minimum Rec.Legion and MSU Double D.Cult. Looks absolutely brutal]

Too bad you wouldn't be allowed to run it at certain tournaments that restrict formations to one of each.

Okay, I am sold. I will keep and build all of them.

Actually, question for the class:
If you're running 2 Destroyer Lords and an Overlord together, what would be the best way to outfit them?
Also, who should be the Warlord?

I stuck the T.Arrow on the Overlord because BS5 with PE on a S10 AP1 shot is just hilarious for a first turn out of nowhere potential first blood, but who should carry the Veil/Shroud? Is there another relic that should be taken?

I would give the Destroyer Lords warscythes and one of them would get The Nightmare Shroud.
Might even give the other Destroyer Lord the Voidreaper.

The Overlord gets a Phase Shifter, maybe even a warscythe.

P.S.

Has anyone tried playing against the GSC with their necrons? If so, how did it go?

Ok, this is way overboard and kinda on the crazy side (550 points of crazy)
Destroyer Lord w/ Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Nightmare Shroud and a Warscythe (TANK)
Destroyer Lord w/Phase Shifter and Voidreaper (DPS)
Overlord w/Phase Shifter, Res Orb, Tachyon arrow (because I like your kind of silly) and The Veil of Darkness.

The other option is to throw the Solar Staff on the Overlord instead of the Veil. It's kinda 50/50 in my book.

You get a majority T6 unit, with a 2+/4++ and a 5+RP, and It Will Not Die with a 1 time ResOrb and 1 Time perfect Hit and Run.
6 S7, AP2 Armorbane (Half are also Fleshbane and Master Crafted) Preferred enemy attacks, and then some Staff of Light attacks too.

My only problem is that you aren't getting the crazy benefits of having Orikan the Diviner in the group. The boost to reanimation Protocols and reroll all saving throws of 1 (which is just plain boss). Oh... and him turning into a C'Tan at some point in the game.


Try the feels of this... totally spitballing, and I know it won't work in some areas.

Royal Court
Overlord (as above)
Orikan the Diviner
Vargard Oberyon

Destroyer Cult #1
Tank Destroyer Lord
3 Heavy Destroyers
3x3 Destroyers

Destroyer Cult #2
DPS Destroyer Lord
3 Heavy Destroyers
3x3 Destroyers

Now look at the Star.
It is still majority T6 (6, 6, 5, 5, and a 4)
You add all of Orikan's defensive buffs
You add another Warscythe and Orikan's Attacks

You would still have about 25 points to tweak in an 1850 list. You could probably cut some points off the Overlord (Phase Shifter, etc)

Stop giving DLords the Voidreaper over Overlords. Overlords are WS5 and therefore have the edge over DLords. If they're in the same unit, the Overlord is getting PE anyway, so now he's hitting on 3+ against most things, rerolling 1s and a single 2. Meanwhile, the DLords will almost always be hitting on 4s.

Preferrably with 2 DLords and an Overlord (aka Double DCult Decurion), you'd have one Tank DLord with 2+/4++ to soak wounds on his T6 in a unit with a Voidreaper Overlord (probably with Phase Shifter). The other DLord is basically wasted unless you really want 3 Res Orbs in one unit, so he's better off going in another unit of Warriors/Immortals/etc to give them Preferred Enemy and tank wounds for them (Phase Shifter, Res Orb, maybe Solar Staff).

Overlord - Voidreaper, Phase Shifter
DLord - Warscythe, 2+/4++
DLord - 4++, Res Orb, Solar Staff

The Solar Staff DLord is flex - he doesn't want to be with the combat dudes because he contributes nothing to Assault other than the Orb (and you can take on on the other two easily), but if you go against Alpha Strikes/shooting heavy he can pop in for a turn to Solar them.

This is how I'm planning on running mine, anyway. You can run two with Warscythes and put them in for a single power unit, but you're really missing out on spreading out the Preferred Enemy love, which honestly has felt more powerful on Warriors buffing their decent shooting and mediocre assault than it has in combat.

The thing about most combats is that it's a really tilted game right now. The difference between 2 and 3 Warscythes is pretty minor in most situations - against basic units like Tac Marines or vehicles, 2 is all you need to wipe it. Against Deathstars or dedicated Assault units, 3 will provide more damage output (unless they're Invisible in which case hahaha no), but you'll likely still lose the fight anyway unless you're running a massive Deathstar, at which point that second DLord is probably better off as Obyron or something anyway.

Just my experience on the matter.

Actually, Destroyer Lords make better use of the Voidreaper than the Nightmare shroud. Consider the following:
1. Most things that will ignore 2+ won't care about the T6 anyway, and T6 is already the majority in that supposed star.
2. The Destroyer Lord gets more chances for rerolls. Against the majority of infantry the Overlord is hitting on a 3+ compared to the 4+. However, that's fairly negligible and therefore PE + MC is likely to come up, and then you get your almost guaranteed wound or penetrate from the Cult bonus. Pretty sure someone already did math showing the Voidreaper being better on the Destroyer Lord too.
3. Destroyer Lords have more natural mobility and therefore, if they need to break off, one carrying a better weapon is necessary. An Overlord doesn't have any of that, and, if in a situation by themselves, they need the 2+ because of the difference of T5 and T6.

1) The point is that the DLord can just stand out in front. Since you can't choose the targets that get shot, you will have to plan for a mix of shooting on your tank character. A DLord with 2+ can take both the S10 (and even D) shooting
as well as small arms fire. An Overlord with 2+ can take small arms fire but has to Look Out anything S10 or D. A DLord with only 3+ will fall faster to small arms fire.

2) I would like to see the math, that doesn't sound quite right. "More chance for rerolls" is nice and all, but I'd rather just hit more anyway. Hitting on 3s rerolling to 3s is better than hitting on 4s rerolling to 4s in every situation and I don't see this being that different.

I could be wrong, but I don't see how hitting on 4+ with rerolls will ever be better than 3+ with rerolls.

3) I disagree. An IC by themselves wants to survive more than it wants to kill, and since small arms fire (and, you know, 100000 Scat Lasers) is a thing, 2+ is important. A single dude by themselves will rarely get free reign to just run around and kill things without getting shot.

And while the DLord with Voidreaper is pretty good, he's not exactly good enough to kill much by himself that he wouldn't beat anyway with a Warscythe.

Okay, so on the topic of who in this hypothetical Deathstar should be the Warlord, you'd want to go for the Overlord, right? (his reroll 1s Enhanced Reanimation Protocols thing extends to the Destroyer Lords as well, correct?)
If so, would you want to give HIM the Nightmare Shroud? (to make him harder to kill, with 2+/4++/4+++ & 6 ablative wounds)

1. The Overlord can just stand in the front too. PE on everything is more important than the Overlord themselves. The Destroyer Lords, even just one, are doing more for the list and are therefore more important to keep alive.
2. That is just how PE works. Assuming both have a regular Scythe, the Destroyer Lord hits 1.75 times compared to 2 for the Overlord. However, PE kicks in and then against any target without a ++ or below T6 the Destroyer Lord inflicts 1.7 wounds compared to the Overlord's 1.68.
So when you combine that with the bonus from the Destroyer Lord, he's always rerolling to wound (though PE guaranteed that the 2+ will wound 35/36 times) AND he gets a penetration bonus from his detachment. That's simply gruesome against a Knight.
3. T6 is already fine then. When an Overlord detaches, he NEEDS the 2+ becuase of the difference between T5 and T6.

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so on the topic of who in this hypothetical Deathstar should be the Warlord, you'd want to go for the Overlord, right? (his reroll 1s Enhanced Reanimation Protocols thing extends to the Destroyer Lords as well, correct?)
If so, would you want to give HIM the Nightmare Shroud? (to make him harder to kill, with 2+/4++/4+++ & 6 ablative wounds)

Enhanced Reanimation Protocols only affects the Reclamation Legion, so it does not affect the DLords. If you're running two DCults, you're not running a Deathstar unless you're doing what Anpu-adom said, at which point you're not a Decurion anyway so it doesn't matter.

I'm talking from the perspective of a Decurion with 2 DCults, which would not have a Star of any type because there's not enough there. The Overlord and DLord would go into a Warrior blob that goes forward, which plays the dual role of providing extra wounds for the characters while simultaneously having a decent troop unit (PE, rerolling RP of 1, having tanking models, possibly a Res Orb) for a pseudo-hero unit. Not a Deathstar, but just 10+ buffed dudes with two ICs that make it a strong midfield unit that can threaten with shooting and assault against many opponents.

If you're running a Star with two Destroyer Lords, you're doing something like Anpu-adom said, or you're running a Royal Court + Lychguard/Wraiths + Two DLords in a CAD. Which is a different story.

 skoffs wrote:
Okay, so on the topic of who in this hypothetical Deathstar should be the Warlord, you'd want to go for the Overlord, right? (his reroll 1s Enhanced Reanimation Protocols thing extends to the Destroyer Lords as well, correct?)
If so, would you want to give HIM the Nightmare Shroud? (to make him harder to kill, with 2+/4++/4+++ & 6 ablative wounds)

While I understand the desire to keep your Warlord point, it is easier to keep that point if your Tank Destroyer Lord basically has a 2+ rerollable armor save, a 4+ Invulnerable Save, followed by 4+ reanimation protocols. (With Orikan, you get to reroll ones on the Invuln save too). Plus, as was pointed out earlier, your T6 tank is basically immune to instant death from Strength 10 weapons.
By the time the end of the game comes and you need to split off the destroyer lords, your Orikan will be rocking C'Tan Stats... beefy enough to tank what is needed there.

I see this replacing the Lychstar ONLY if you are taking Double Destroyer Cult formations (with Royal Court). I think that the killyness of so many warscythes in a Lychstar (plus the bonuses of the Decurion) make it the better all around Deathstar for Necrons.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
1. The Overlord can just stand in the front too. PE on everything is more important than the Overlord themselves. The Destroyer Lords, even just one, are doing more for the list and are therefore more important to keep alive.
2. That is just how PE works. Assuming both have a regular Scythe, the Destroyer Lord hits 1.75 times compared to 2 for the Overlord. However, PE kicks in and then against any target without a ++ or below T6 the Destroyer Lord inflicts 1.7 wounds compared to the Overlord's 1.68.
So when you combine that with the bonus from the Destroyer Lord, he's always rerolling to wound (though PE guaranteed that the 2+ will wound 35/36 times) AND he gets a penetration bonus from his detachment. That's simply gruesome against a Knight.
3. T6 is already fine then. When an Overlord detaches, he NEEDS the 2+ becuase of the difference between T5 and T6.

1) Yes, but the Overlord would have to Look Out Sir anything S10 or D. Which isn't a lot, but is worth considering in a list.

2) PE affects the entire unit. So if we're talking about the two of them together, the Overlord will still be better with it. If you're talking the two separately, then you would be correct. I'm considering the situation where the DLord and Overlord are acting out a Buddy Cop movie, so it's different math.

3) Probably, but why would you ever split an Overlord off by himself unless it's your last dire chance? I don't build my army for last dire chances, which is why I don't give my dudes Tachyon Arrows "just in case that single use gun with no Ignores Cover is the only thing that will win me the game". If you're splitting a dude off by himself, it's going to be the DLord, 100% of the time. And if he gets shot by Scat Lasers, he takes half as many wounds if he has 2+ as opposed to just 3+.

Assuming no Royal Court (not enough points to spare if running DDCD at 1850),
Two Destroyer Lords + an Overlord is still a fairly decent Deathstar.
(with one model carrying the Veil, one the Shroud, and the last one carrying whatever else might come in handy).

For who to run as Warlord,
- You can run the Overlord so he gets to reroll his own RP 1s for himself,
- Or you can run the Destroyer Lord and not have to worry about instant death.
... so who is the better bet?
(assume the Warlord will have the 2+)

Oki. I just picked up some Praetorians for kill teams-armed with Rods of the Covenant-and I'm wondering what to do with the last 60 points.

 JNAProductions wrote:
Oki. I just picked up some Praetorians for kill teams-armed with Rods of the Covenant-and I'm wondering what to do with the last 60 points.

Tomb Blades.
No contest.
... Though the question will be, how to outfit them: shields, scopes, or a 2:1 mix (can't take both upgrades on all three guys, that would be 66 points)

I think Nebulascopes might be best. 4+ Armor (with a 4+ Jink) is good against most things, and while there are some things that will punch right through that (Ignores Cover HB-3 shots, 2 hits, 1 wound) Reanimation Protocols will help with that. And cover is just too annoying to futz with.

Edit: Maybe give one both Shield Vanes and Nebulascope, another one Shield Vanes or Nebulascope, ane the last one nothing?

So:
5x Praetorians (Rods)
3x Tomb Blades (Scopes)
100 points.
...
Now you gotta figure out leader & specialists.

Leader... Hrm...

I think a Praetorian would be the best bet. T5 3+ instead of T5 4+, and Fearless.

As for specialists, I was thinking Hatred (on a Praetorian), Shred (on a Praetorian), and actually, I'll give one of the Tomb Blades Ignores Cover as a Specialist, allowing it to have Shield Vanes. (Or should I give Ignores Cover to a Praetorian?)

If you make one of the Tomb Blades the specialist that has ignore cover, that'll be 2 points saved.
So three guys with ignore cover, and one with 3+.

Ignores Cover Gauss Tomb Blades are the meta. Because Scouts with Camo Cloaks are the strongest option, and they directly counter Scouts in cover (while also being fast and tough themselves).

This came up in the Kill Team thread, but if you really wanted to dominate you'd go 9x Tomb Blades with Shields and Scopes (and one with Beamer to round it out to an even 200 'cause WHY NOT?)

This may have been covered in 158 pages of this thread, but I can't seem to find it:

Regarding MSS. Fear and Challenges both take place at "The start of the fight phase" so I am looking at wording for a priority. I figure since this is War40k it has already been argued to bits so maybe someone has a quick answer. Do I challenge the same turn I charge, and can I perform the fear test the same turn I challenge? Or do these occur on subsequent turns prior to fight phases? Currently we are playing where challenge is issued after charge before combat, but since MSS requires a challenge to provide fear, I am not sure if I am considered to have that at the start of the same phase I charge in. In short, can I charge -> challenge -> fear -> fight in the same turn using MSS?

If someone can clear that up it would be fantastic, I have a few opponents (Tau Farsight and Space Wolves) who have assault heavy Warlords and it would be nice to break their brains with bots.

Morris782 wrote:
This may have been covered in 158 pages of this thread, but I can't seem to find it:

Regarding MSS. Fear and Challenges both take place at "The start of the fight phase" so I am looking at wording for a priority. I figure since this is War40k it has already been argued to bits so maybe someone has a quick answer. Do I challenge the same turn I charge, and can I perform the fear test the same turn I challenge? Or do these occur on subsequent turns prior to fight phases? Currently we are playing where challenge is issued after charge before combat, but since MSS requires a challenge to provide fear, I am not sure if I am considered to have that at the start of the same phase I charge in. In short, can I charge -> challenge -> fear -> fight in the same turn using MSS?

If someone can clear that up it would be fantastic, I have a few opponents (Tau Farsight and Space Wolves) who have assault heavy Warlords and it would be nice to break their brains with bots.

Things that happen at the same time (for example, "at the start of the fight phase") happen in the order chosen by the player whose turn it is. So, if you charge in and assault, you can choose to declare the challenge and then have them take the Fear test. However, if you get charged, they will choose the opposite order. At least, that's how the GW FAQs explain it.

Also, keep note that Space Wolves have ATSKNF, which means they ignore Fear tests. Fear is a pretty bad rule against any army that's not Tau.

No, but seriously,
- Destroyer Lord with his T6 instant death-proof-ness
- Overlord with his rerollable RP 1s
Who is the better choice for Warlord (with 2+ Nightmare Shroud) in the aforementioned Double Destroyer Cult Decurion (DDCD) setup?
Still need to add Veil and Shroud (absolutely required) and anything to round out the points (ResOrbs, Voidreaper, Solar Staff, etc.), but who gets what depends on who the better Warlord would be.

I would tend to say that the Overlord is the better choice. That way you can use the inherent durability of the DLords as sponges to soak wounds without worrying about StW.

But if you make one of the DLords the warlord, you can use the other one the same way. That's probably better, overall. And then you can use the Overlord's better melee profile to eat challenges and what not.

Eh, the sponge Destroyer Lord can eat challenges just fine. Leave the other two for squad clean up.

HI all I am very slowly reading my way through the thread, I just started Necrons (I impulsively bought a Necron Battleforce on eBay for like $100) so all I really know is that the Decurion is great, the Wraiths are great, and playing the two together is likely to lose friends

How are Annihilation Barges (this may have been answered elsewhere, but 159 pages is a lot to read through!) and the Doomsday Ark? I like how they look and like the idea of a lot of firepower, so I'm thinking of an Annihilation Nexus as one of my formations, and probably a Judicator Battalion as the other (love how the Stalker looks, and the Praetorians look pretty cool too). I don't want to go TOO much into the cheese category since my GW plays strong, but not crushingly WAAC, lists from what I can see; like I haven't seen a Skyhammer, Knight spam or a War Convocation or Scatbike spam).

I kinda want to focus on two large Warrior squads as a bulwark, because I like very resilient gameplay. Backed up with an Annihilation Nexus and a Judicator Battalion? 10-man Immortal squad in a Night Scythe, maybe? I really don't know what works and what doesn't beyond Decurion. I really do like how Wraiths look but I hear they are insanely OP so I'm not sure of using them, and if I did maybe just 3 and not 6.

I'd rather take the Ark than a Barge now. I get the hit was necessary, but they're not much now for 120 points.

Taking three of those formations can be mildly valid though outside of facing IK lists.

Annihilation Barges got hit hard by the change to Tesla from 6th --> 7th (not getting extra hits on Snapshots). The price change was just fair. The combo took one of our best units to slightly better than junk. Doomsday Ark was seriously overcosted in the 6th codex. It is better now, but still sufferes from the fact that you can't fire the main gun if you've jinked (and not in the best profile if you've moved at all). Throw in C'Tan and the Monolith, there isn't much in the Necron Heavy Support that is worth taking in a CAD. I haven't played the Annihilation Nexus, but allowing the Barges defend for the Ark helps there... I just don't know how much.
Judicator is good. Harvest is good. Destroyer Cult is good.
For fun, I've been playing with 3 units of Flayed Ones (and Imotekh)... It's fun, flavorful and decently powerful. My community has a lot of new players, so there isn't a lot of WAAC here either.

To be fair, how often would an Ark move with that range?

Wayniac wrote:
I really do like how Wraiths look but I hear they are insanely OP so I'm not sure of using them, and if I did maybe just 3 and not 6.

... people still consider Wraiths "OP"?
How, exactly?
They're just a tarpit unit.