So I just got the codex. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but can the D-Lord now the take the phase shifter and/or the 2+ armor upgrade? Cause if so, DAMN...
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So I just got the codex. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but can the D-Lord now the take the phase shifter and/or the 2+ armor upgrade? Cause if so, DAMN...
A phase shifter? Yes he always can.
But the 2+ armor upgrade is only available once as an arcane item.
NecronLord3 wrote: So what's the thought on the D. Lord attached to wraiths. It pretty much makes him a 6" moving infantry model. Not sure if wraiths are going to work without the d. Lord attached?
Why wouldn't they work without the Dlord?
PE is nice, but it's not the end all be all. The T5 on them means that the Dlord being used as a meatsheild isn't near as valuable, and with the loss of MSS the Dlord isn't near what he used to be in challenges.
Wraiths got a lot better, and the Dlord got a lot worse. I don't think he is needed at all anymore.
What HQ would you prefer in the new edition?
I want a fast HQ who can work on his own.
So I see only the Barge Lord or the DLord here.
I think it's still the bargelord. You just have to be more careful with him and what you aim him at. I like zhandrekh too but I have no idea where i'd put him since he cant go with warriors in an ark. If I took a blob than maybe
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So I just got the codex. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but can the D-Lord now the take the phase shifter and/or the 2+ armor upgrade? Cause if so, DAMN...
A phase shifter? Yes he always can.
But the 2+ armor upgrade is only available once as an arcane item.
Still, a T6 model with a 2+ and 4++? And armed with a warscythe? I2 or not, he is gonna put the hurt on most anything in the game...
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So I just got the codex. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong, but can the D-Lord now the take the phase shifter and/or the 2+ armor upgrade? Cause if so, DAMN...
A phase shifter? Yes he always can.
But the 2+ armor upgrade is only available once as an arcane item.
Still, a T6 model with a 2+ and 4++? And armed with a warscythe? I2 or not, he is gonna put the hurt on most anything in the game...
Run it out of the Mephrit dynasty with Solar Thermasite, or with Orikan, and that becomes a re-rollable 2+.
2+ re-roll/4++ re-roll 1s/4+++ re-roll 1s/5++++ IWND for good measure.
Mephrit Dynasty Cohort
Destroyer Lord Edge of Eternity, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Solar Thermasite, The Nightmare Shroud
5x Immortal Night Scythe
5x Immortal Night Scythe
5x Immortal
So in this list the D Lord is about as crazy awesome as is possible. Send him and the wraiths at the opponents big nasty. The bargeLord can hit vehicles and beasties it can handle.
ShadarLogoth wrote: In the context of Void Blade / Particle caster TPs, that Triarch formation is still pretty legit, the more I think about it. Obviously effecting all units would have been sweet, but both Rending and Entropic are meaning full rules in conjunction with rerolls.
Obviously not nearly as good as it would have been otherwise, but if you are considering both units, that's a pretty good way to bring them. Marking a target for TP death per turn doesn't take away what the Stalker is doing other wise, both in shooting and buffing with the 6 range. And adding reroll to hit and wound/armor pan to either Praetorian is still pretty legit. In fact, if you had one of each it would be a pretty good way of covering both bases. Giving you a sold medium / heavy infantry counter and a solid heavy vehicle / light infantry counter, depending on which you needed more each turn.
5 VB/PC on the charge against a marked vehicle give you, what, 5.4 HPs? That's not too shabby lol.
The re-roll bonus only works during the shooting phase. No melee rerolls as the effect goes away when the phase ends.
So. Can we now take the Conclave with the Tranny C'Tanny? His description sounds like he is now a Shard. And te picture in Baal uses him as a reference.
I guess not. We have two C'tan Shard of XYZ and a Transcendent C'tan. So a line that allows us to take a C'tan Shard will surely be meant for the first two.
I also see no reason to use the Transcendent, because he is clearly inferior to the other two.
Isn't it weird, then, that they used the Image of the Tranny in the formation description? And I agree. The Nightbringer is better unless you want to punch Knights. As that extra Str point matters then. Also aesthetically, I'd love to find a way to use Trans in my army. It's purty.
Kholzerino wrote: Isn't it weird, then, that they used the Image of the Tranny in the formation description? And I agree. The Nightbringer is better unless you want to punch Knights. As that extra Str point matters then. Also aesthetically, I'd love to find a way to use Trans in my army. It's purty.
Oberron wrote:
Dlord in Flayed one deepstrike with the Solar staff is a bad day for the enemy as long as you don't mess up the scatter. The can't assault restriction the the deep strike won't matter as much if everything becomes snapshot at the flayed one unit. Is anything else a must take for this unit? I think a res orb would be better suited than the phase shifter but both can be nice and have their place but neither are must haves for this.
Or would it be better/cheaper to just stick a cryptek in there with the veil of darkness and a chronometron for the 5++ to everything? 115pts for the tek and 125-150 for the Dlord. Risk the shooting phase for the 5++/4+++rp or be safe with snap shots(and immune to blast) and have PE. Hmm it looks like the Dlord is the better case
I was looking at this as well. Dlord with Solar Staff with 20 FOs.
Or, give a cryptek the solar staff/VoD and the cryptek adds +1 to RP.
You could always just through them both in there for a +1 RP tax and give the staff to the beat stick Dlord.
AbyssalisCuriositas wrote: I'm looking for something relatively reliable against something like dakkajets and stormravens in >= 1000 point games. Someone mentioned tomb blades as an anti-air option, but I can't figure out why that would be viable.
Because they are cheap, fast and are something you would like anyway. They might put out a few less HP's than others, but they make up for that with their Ignore Cover-ability which ignores Jink.
Byte wrote: I was looking at this as well. Dlord with Solar Staff with 20 FOs.
Or, give a cryptek the solar staff/VoD and the cryptek adds +1 to RP.
You could always just through them both in there for a +1 RP tax and give the staff to the beat stick Dlord.
Only one Relic per model, so that would not work. If you take a Decurion you get the +1RP for free.
AbyssalisCuriositas wrote: I'm looking for something relatively reliable against something like dakkajets and stormravens in >= 1000 point games.
Someone mentioned tomb blades as an anti-air option, but I can't figure out why that would be viable.
Because they are cheap, fast and are something you would like anyway.
They might put out a few less HP's than others, but they make up for that with their Ignore Cover-ability which ignores Jink.
Byte wrote: I was looking at this as well. Dlord with Solar Staff with 20 FOs.
Or, give a cryptek the solar staff/VoD and the cryptek adds +1 to RP.
You could always just through them both in there for a +1 RP tax and give the staff to the beat stick Dlord.
Only one Relic per model, so that would not work.
If you take a Decurion you get the +1RP for free.
I don't get the attraction for antiair either. Still hit on 6s, yes? Ignore cover with STR 5 vs most flyers big deal(think storm raven as mentioned). Rely on gauss? Two 6s in a row to glance. Don't get it.
Gotcha.
I wouldn't say Decurion is free. Takes away too many options for me with the compulsory units. YMMV
With the +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls from the Decurion Detachment + the re-rolls of 1's for
the Overlord his unit and units from this Formation that are within 12" of him from the Reclamation Legion.
Would mass infantry be a viable option with this codex?
4+, 4+ re-rolling 1's with added Barges has to be pretty good right?
It was me who noticed how good Tomb Blades are for anti-air, and it was for this reason: Ignores Cover transfers when manning an Aegis Defence Line's quad gun.
dubhgilla wrote:With the +1 bonus to Reanimation Protocols rolls from the Decurion Detachment + the re-rolls of 1's for
the Overlord his unit and units from this Formation that are within 12" of him from the Reclamation Legion.
Would mass infantry be a viable option with this codex?
4+, 4+ re-rolling 1's with added Barges has to be pretty good right?
I think so, I mean you'd have some tactical holes but so what. Big bricks of metal undead! What's not to like?
changemod wrote:It was me who noticed how good Tomb Blades are for anti-air, and it was for this reason: Ignores Cover transfers when manning an Aegis Defence Line's quad gun.
That's the element that's getting left out of all the posts, Aegis gun. Got it.
changemod wrote: It was me who noticed how good Tomb Blades are for anti-air, and it was for this reason: Ignores Cover transfers when manning an Aegis Defence Line's quad gun.
Exactly. I want to take another look at the Pylons though because we truly do lack AA if we don't want to take a decent amount of Night Scythes. What I wonder is, is the Quad Gun penalized if the Tomb Blades jink and then they to man it? I feel like it should be but I'm not sure.
I don't own IA 12, so I'll have to borrow it from a friend of mine, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong here:
Pylons can't be taken as part of the Decurion, right? So you would have to take an allied force of regular Necrons to take pylons? Or are they a formation?
changemod wrote: It was me who noticed how good Tomb Blades are for anti-air, and it was for this reason: Ignores Cover transfers when manning an Aegis Defence Line's quad gun.
Exactly. I want to take another look at the Pylons though because we truly do lack AA if we don't want to take a decent amount of Night Scythes. What I wonder is, is the Quad Gun penalized if the Tomb Blades jink and then they to man it? I feel like it should be but I'm not sure.
I don't own IA 12, so I'll have to borrow it from a friend of mine, but someone please correct me if I'm wrong here:
Pylons can't be taken as part of the Decurion, right? So you would have to take an allied force of regular Necrons to take pylons? Or are they a formation?
Strictly speaking you could have a Decurion in an Unbound force that's 90% Decurion.
For those working on the battlescribe files, first thank you.
I did note that BS file allows solar thermasite on a D lord however exterminatus states "necron overlord or cryptek only". Same with edge of eternity.
Also the file is allowing me to mix and match relics from exterminatus and the codex relics within a destroyer cult, which should not be possible (unless taking a mephrit dynasty detachment/formation.. perhaps).
If this has been corrected please disregard and again thanks.
Why would I think that? Because of the way its blocked out and only available in the decurion formation.
As it happens I've been looking and they aren't individual, by the looks of it you must take reclamation legion in order to gain access to others.
Yes and no. They can be standalone formations, both for Necrons and other armies. If IG wants to have a Canoptek Harvest and no other Necron models in their army, they now can. A normal Necron CAD could also use a destroyer cult as their formstion source.
However, if you want to use the Decurion, you have to take a single reclamation legion. That then unlocks whatever else you want, in whatever quantity (except royal courts IIRC I think they are only one but who cares?). So my battle forged Decurion army could be:
All of these would claim the benefits from their own formation as well as the command benefits of Decurion (not obsec sadly but hey, +1 RP is pretty dope)
No, that is because the Codex doesn't give us a 'Formation' that has those units. Forgeworld would have to make Formations with a note saying that they can be taken as 'Auxiliary' in a Decurion Detachment.
Though IA12 does give permission to be taken as an Allied Detachment to Necrons. But many of those units no longer work or work badly. +Kutlakh works if you ignore his Ever-living. -Toholk has an Aeonstave and Timesplinter Cloak, so no longer works. -Overlords and Lords work but are paying old prices for stuff that is now nerfed (PS for 45, etc); you should also ignore the CCB upgrade. +They can take a CCB just like Necrons. +Warriors are roughly the same, but can take Flensing Scarabs and pay more for the Ghost Ark. -Flayed Ones are Troops, but lack the Shred and additional attack. -Immortals are fine, rules did not break them. ++They can still take a Night Scythe at 100 points -Lychguard: You pay 20 additional points for Rage. No-go! +Acanthrites are fine. +Maynarkh Scarabs are awesome, they are the old ones with a changed ES. (Read this GW: Their point increase is stupid!) -Tesseract Ark is nerfed from AV14 to AV13, though he is Heavy so Living Metal does repair his hull points now. +Pylons are okay as always, we do need a change in their Skyfire.
dominuschao wrote: For those working on the battlescribe files, first thank you.
I did note that BS file allows solar thermasite on a D lord however exterminatus states "necron overlord or cryptek only". Same with edge of eternity.
Also the file is allowing me to mix and match relics from exterminatus and the codex relics within a destroyer cult, which should not be possible (unless taking a mephrit dynasty detachment/formation.. perhaps).
If this has been corrected please disregard and again thanks.
But thank you! The D-Lord was a mistake, I copied the Overlord, changed some names and removed Ranged Weapons. I removed Thermasite and Edge of Eternity now. Edit: Did the same for a Lord.
That last thing is your own fault! Mephrit Relics are hidden unless you tell the program your Formation/Detachment is from Exterminatus. It's the selection in the 'No Category'-group.
Why would I think that? Because of the way its blocked out and only available in the decurion formation.
As it happens I've been looking and they aren't individual, by the looks of it you must take reclamation legion in order to gain access to others.
Yes and no. They can be standalone formations, both for Necrons and other armies. If IG wants to have a Canoptek Harvest and no other Necron models in their army, they now can. A normal Necron CAD could also use a destroyer cult as their formstion source.
However, if you want to use the Decurion, you have to take a single reclamation legion. That then unlocks whatever else you want, in whatever quantity (except royal courts IIRC I think they are only one but who cares?). So my battle forged Decurion army could be:
All of these would claim the benefits from their own formation as well as the command benefits of Decurion (not obsec sadly but hey, +1 RP is pretty dope)
That doesn't sound right.
So I can make a normal necron army and take canoptek harvest, only thing I lose is the bonus to RP?
That last thing is your own fault!
Mephrit Relics are hidden unless you tell the program your Formation/Detachment is from Exterminatus.
It's the selection in the 'No Category'-group.
Mephrit Dynasty Cohort
Destroyer Lord Edge of Eternity, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Solar Thermasite, The Nightmare Shroud
5x Immortal Night Scythe
5x Immortal Night Scythe
5x Immortal
So in this list the D Lord is about as crazy awesome as is possible. Send him and the wraiths at the opponents big nasty. The bargeLord can hit vehicles and beasties it can handle.
I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but the D-lord cannot take the Solar Thermasite. Only Overlords can take that.
Why would I think that? Because of the way its blocked out and only available in the decurion formation.
As it happens I've been looking and they aren't individual, by the looks of it you must take reclamation legion in order to gain access to others.
Yes and no. They can be standalone formations, both for Necrons and other armies. If IG wants to have a Canoptek Harvest and no other Necron models in their army, they now can. A normal Necron CAD could also use a destroyer cult as their formstion source.
However, if you want to use the Decurion, you have to take a single reclamation legion. That then unlocks whatever else you want, in whatever quantity (except royal courts IIRC I think they are only one but who cares?). So my battle forged Decurion army could be:
All of these would claim the benefits from their own formation as well as the command benefits of Decurion (not obsec sadly but hey, +1 RP is pretty dope)
That doesn't sound right.
So I can make a normal necron army and take canoptek harvest, only thing I lose is the bonus to RP?
The formations are just formations, you can take them as any other one would be. If they're categorized under the Decurion, though, you get the further benefits.
Why would I think that? Because of the way its blocked out and only available in the decurion formation.
As it happens I've been looking and they aren't individual, by the looks of it you must take reclamation legion in order to gain access to others.
Yes and no. They can be standalone formations, both for Necrons and other armies. If IG wants to have a Canoptek Harvest and no other Necron models in their army, they now can. A normal Necron CAD could also use a destroyer cult as their formstion source.
However, if you want to use the Decurion, you have to take a single reclamation legion. That then unlocks whatever else you want, in whatever quantity (except royal courts IIRC I think they are only one but who cares?). So my battle forged Decurion army could be:
All of these would claim the benefits from their own formation as well as the command benefits of Decurion (not obsec sadly but hey, +1 RP is pretty dope)
That doesn't sound right.
So I can make a normal necron army and take canoptek harvest, only thing I lose is the bonus to RP?
The formations are just formations, you can take them as any other one would be. If they're categorized under the Decurion, though, you get the further benefits.
Why would I think that? Because of the way its blocked out and only available in the decurion formation.
As it happens I've been looking and they aren't individual, by the looks of it you must take reclamation legion in order to gain access to others.
Necron codex page 64 right column, last para.
What's the issue?
Im on electronic so I don't really get the page references I'm afraid. But I simply didn't understand how the formations work, the way the blocks look it seems like you would have to take a destroyer cult. Typically that kind of hierarchical display signifies, well, a hierarchy that must be followed in order to gain access to units.
Probably just me being silly, I understand now, you can take basically anything but following the decurion rules confers benefits, its all good.
Mephrit Dynasty Cohort
Destroyer Lord Edge of Eternity, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Solar Thermasite, The Nightmare Shroud
5x Immortal Night Scythe
5x Immortal Night Scythe
5x Immortal
So in this list the D Lord is about as crazy awesome as is possible. Send him and the wraiths at the opponents big nasty. The bargeLord can hit vehicles and beasties it can handle.
I don't know if it's already been mentioned, but the D-lord cannot take the Solar Thermasite. Only Overlords can take that.
Yea. Battlescribe was allowing it. I think Kangodo is going to address it.
Why would I think that? Because of the way its blocked out and only available in the decurion formation.
As it happens I've been looking and they aren't individual, by the looks of it you must take reclamation legion in order to gain access to others.
Necron codex page 64 right column, last para.
What's the issue?
Im on electronic so I don't really get the page references I'm afraid. But I simply didn't understand how the formations work, the way the blocks look it seems like you would have to take a destroyer cult. Typically that kind of hierarchical display signifies, well, a hierarchy that must be followed in order to gain access to units.
Probably just me being silly, I understand now, you can take basically anything but following the decurion rules confers benefits, its all good.
Affirm, basically it says entries with the funny little symbol is a formation and is played in accordance with the 40k rule book. In a nut shell.
Anrakyr gets relentless as his default Warlord trait.
Combine with a full size unit of Immortals, and Szeras Cryptek buffing a substantial gunline further back (Being an old style orb for multiple units is really his big selling point now), and you can select the Phyrrian Eternals as the recipients of the Szeras buff.
Worst case scenario? You're S5 granting S6 on the charge with Furious Charge.
I am curious about Zhandrekh,
There are two questions I still have about him:
-The rules he copies, how often do you encounter those?
-What Traits would be the best to take?
The three armies I play (with) most contain Orks and Blood Angels, so for me it seems like Zhandrekh always gives his unit FC.
Combining that with Szeras would be 'at worst' 20 Warriors charging with S6
The Barge seems less useful. Before it was always more scary than useful anyway, got a circle running landraiders and Hammerinators which would just destroy the lord every time given the chance.
I do think 2x 20 man warrior squads with a lord are going to be insanely hard to kill.
4+ save, 4+ reroll and rerolling ones, so you only kill one from an ordinary shot on a failure to roll 2/3. That is quite insane, and they will put out an average of 2x2HP a turn even not rapid fire range. Granted its a lot of points. It would absorb a lot of firepower, at that point I'd run the barge with just a warscythe, but no sweeping attacks now? Sucks.
But the two man squads could sink a landraider in a turn, drop a knight in two, even assuming you don't get rapid fire.
Why would I think that? Because of the way its blocked out and only available in the decurion formation.
As it happens I've been looking and they aren't individual, by the looks of it you must take reclamation legion in order to gain access to others.
Necron codex page 64 right column, last para.
What's the issue?
Im on electronic so I don't really get the page references I'm afraid. But I simply didn't understand how the formations work, the way the blocks look it seems like you would have to take a destroyer cult. Typically that kind of hierarchical display signifies, well, a hierarchy that must be followed in order to gain access to units.
Probably just me being silly, I understand now, you can take basically anything but following the decurion rules confers benefits, its all good.
Affirm, basically it says entries with the funny little symbol is a formation and is played in accordance with the 40k rule book. In a nut shell.
I would advocate going cheap, actually. Since the CCB is no longer protected by RP it seems to be the achilles heel in CC. One could go warscythe + phaseshifter, but that brings him up to 180. I'd probably just go WS and call it a day. If you want survivable, on foot seems to be the way to go.
I don't know if this was already answered, but does Nemesor have to be the Warlord in order to call upon different Warlord Traits. In a way, it's like having two Warlords at once if you elected someone else.
Kangodo wrote: Load up, especially the Sv2+ seems important.
PS, Phylactery and Shroud are items I would take (with a Warscythe).
In Mephrit I would probably take the Edge of Eternity and Thermasite with it.
One interesting thing about the bargeLord is you can now add gauntlet of fire as a ranged weapon and keep your melee weapon. With sola thermasite the gauntlet of fire becomes S5. Make up a little bit for the loss of sweep attacks.
changemod wrote: Anyone know how quickly Orikan is likely to call upon the ancient sprits of evil?
T1: 0% T2 or faster: 16% T3 or faster: 44% T4 or faster: 72%
I think that is the correct math on his Star-allignment.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't know if this was already answered, but does Nemesor have to be the Warlord in order to call upon different Warlord Traits. In a way, it's like having two Warlords at once if you elected someone else.
It starts with "If Nemesor Zhandrekh is your Warlord, you may.."
changemod wrote: Anyone know how quickly Orikan is likely to call upon the ancient sprits of evil?
T1: 0%
T2 or faster: 16%
T3 or faster: 44%
T4 or faster: 72%
I think that is the correct math on his Star-allignment.
Slayer-Fan123 wrote: I don't know if this was already answered, but does Nemesor have to be the Warlord in order to call upon different Warlord Traits. In a way, it's like having two Warlords at once if you elected someone else.
It starts with "If Nemesor Zhandrekh is your Warlord, you may.."
Sounds fair, though somewhat disappointing. Still plan to use him as the Warlord any time I use him anyway, so no biggie.
I made my first list I posted elsewhere. It involves 8 Scytheguard and Orikan + a Destroyer Lord with the super Warscythe. Should be REALLY durable to run up the board.
In that unit I would probably put him with Shields-Lychguard. If Orikan Empowers, you would have two models that fight with S7, AP2. Orikan has 5 attacks on the charge, a D-Lord would have 4
The Lord will have either a Shroud, for a rerollable 2+ or a Veil for teleportation. Voidreaper is quite weird.. Why would I want Fleshbane on a S7-weapon?
One other thing I thought of: How do people feel about a Destroyer Lord with the Gauntlet of the Conflagrator? Nothing else.. You can Deep Strike him next to a squad, wipe out some Sv2+ models and jump away behind cover.
Nah, +2S just like the Warscythe.
Though he does have Master-Crafted, which is often rated at 10 points.
I still don't think that it is worth a Relic-slot, especially compared to Edge of Eternity.
I assembled my doomsday ark earlier today (damn that kit is a headache). It's one of our gems IMO. A vindicator shot with a 72" range and primary weapon, for a decent price tag. I'm loving this codex.
Necrons: Codex (2015) (Allied Detachment)
HQ Destroyer Lord Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Voidreaper
Night Scythe 5x Immortal (ObjSec)
addng in a Necron ally is the cheapest way to get a D Lord for the wraiths and also get 1-2 objective secured troops
gauntlet of fire is a snap take for the CCB
Kangodo wrote: Don't forget that he also lost Ordnance, so you can fire the main-cannon ánd the Arrays!
It never had Ordinance. That was one of my major issues with the Doomsday Ark before - it had no mobility (a S7 AP4 blast is scary to absolutely nothing in the game) and it was very unreliable at killing vehicles. Primary weapon is a huge gain, and S10 AP1 is a good buff - it's almost as strong as it physically could be without being a Str D weapon (the only way it could be better is lance, which would be silly). Shame cover is just stupidly easy for Wave Serpents to get really. Then again, I'm sure everyone knows how insanely good Eldar are by now, and VS other stuff it does quite well. I'm going to try it, not expecting amazing things but it may well find a permanent place in my lists now. Most our good AT got hit so hard I'm seriously debating just running a Monolith again to hide behind. We'll see, though my general opinion isn't that Necrons are too weak, but that Eldar/Tau being able to ignore cover with such impunity, plus their massed shooting is just too broken for the game right now.
Necrons: Codex (2015) (Allied Detachment)
HQ Destroyer Lord Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Voidreaper
Night Scythe 5x Immortal (ObjSec)
addng in a Necron ally is the cheapest way to get a D Lord for the wraiths and also get 1-2 objective secured troops
gauntlet of fire is a snap take for the CCB
Sadly you can't take an allied detachment with the same faction as your primary, so you need a second troop. Also, you can only take one artifact per character, so you can't have both the shroud and Voidreaper. A normal warscythe will do just fine though. You lose out on fleshbane and re-rolling one miss, but you are already S7 and re-roll hit rolls of 1 as it is. However, the rest is really solid and I'd probably just swap the d-marks to immortals and be done with it. But also consider that the wraiths will be very powerful even without the D-lord, so you could drop the allies and just beef up your decurion.
Necrons: Codex (2015) (Allied Detachment)
HQ Destroyer Lord Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Voidreaper
Night Scythe 5x Immortal (ObjSec)
addng in a Necron ally is the cheapest way to get a D Lord for the wraiths and also get 1-2 objective secured troops
gauntlet of fire is a snap take for the CCB
Sadly you can't take an allied detachment with the same faction as your primary, so you need a second troop. Also, you can only take one artifact per character, so you can't have both the shroud and Voidreaper. A normal warscythe will do just fine though. You lose out on fleshbane and re-rolling one miss, but you are already S7 and re-roll hit rolls of 1 as it is. However, the rest is really solid and I'd probably just swap the d-marks to immortals and be done with it. But also consider that the wraiths will be very powerful even without the D-lord, so you could drop the allies and just beef up your decurion.
Self-allying is generally allowed in the major tourney formats (LVO, etc) so I guess I would have to go full CAD if it weren't specifically allowed.
Where do you see the rule against a character having more than one Artifact of the Aeons? I see a rule for one per army.
Had my first game with the new book yesterday, thought you might appreciate some of my observations:
- Having Move Through Cover on everything is a huge boon, especially as we were playing on a board with many ruins. Being able to jump Tomb Blades or Praetorians into cover with no risk of being wounded was great, especially on the low model squads.
- I don't think this is a revelation to anyone at this point, but Wraiths are super durable. To test out how durable they were, I threw them into combat with 3 carnifexes (one of which was Old One Eye), a hive tyrant, and the Swarmlord, the combat lasted 5 whole turns (10 rounds of combat) with only the Swarmlord coming out of it unscathed.
- The Judicator Battalion is surprisingly good at taking out MCs. I took the Stalker with a heat ray, and that + re-rolls to hit and wound with the Praetorians' Rods meant that wiping out 6-wound MCs wasn't a problem. The Praetorians ended up killing an Exocrine, a Tervigon, 3 warriors, and the Swarmlord.
- The Deathmarks did a fine job, deep striking alongside a Trygon and killing it before it even got to shoot/run in its own Shooting Phase. It feels a little dirty though, being able to kill a unit before it gets to do anything.
- The scarab swarms I was obligated to take for the Canoptek Harvest formation actually did a pretty decent job. The Spyder built them from 3-strong to 5-strong, and they tied up a unit of Zoanthropes for the entire game. I think this is the best use for them, once you get them to 4-5 bases you can use their speed to tie up units like devastators, dark reapers, broadsides, etc.
- The durability of the whole force is immense. Before I could tie them up in close combat, the Zoans managed to fire 4 warp blasts at a unit of 10 immortals. With cover and their improved RP, only 1 died. By the end of the game, I had only lost the unit of Wraiths (which I had thrown into combat with the hardest stuff in his force in order to tie them up), other than that, the only casualties were 1 Praetorian and three Immortals.
The biggest thing though is that nothing in the army felt redundant or like a tax. Everything was contributing to the game and the inherent synergies in the Decurion (re-rolls from Stalker, morale benefits/RP re-rolls from Overlord, special rules from Spyder) made the whole army feel like it was working as a single large machine.
This is why I love the Decurion, not necessarily because of its huge benefits (although that is great) but because it remains competitive whilst simultaneously representing the kind of army that we see in the background material.
Completely agree with you that nothing in these formations feels like a tax. Much wraiths. Such durability. Spyders and and scarabs have their place too. I'm waiting on my Spyders (or rather, stalkers that I plan to use as Spyders) to arrive so that I can play without proxies but I'm quite looking forward to it
It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
Aye, it's merely a play on how broken people regard the formation to be. I won't be running 3 swarms at lower than 2.5k, although I might just try that list out for the lulz.
By the way, how do people regard Nemesor Zandrekh and his ability to swap warlord trait? I'm considering running him in a Decurion, with two 20 man warrior blocks backed up by a Judicator batallion with double stalkers. Turn one, march up. Turn two, change warlord trait to Target Priority (all friendly units within 12" re-roll 1's to hit in the shooting phase). Suddenly, your warriors are BS5 twin-linked. That's 6 HP caused on average, or a whole lot of dead infantry. Feels like a really strong core, but how do you recon I support it?
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luke1705 wrote: It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
I was totally going for the fluffiness of a dormant tomb world not yet awakened, only protected by its canoptek units!
Necrons: Codex (2015) (Allied Detachment)
HQ Destroyer Lord Phase Shifter, Phylactery, The Nightmare Shroud, Voidreaper
Night Scythe 5x Immortal (ObjSec)
addng in a Necron ally is the cheapest way to get a D Lord for the wraiths and also get 1-2 objective secured troops
gauntlet of fire is a snap take for the CCB
WAIT
Warscythes don't replace our range weapons and we can still purchase them?
HNNNNNNNNNNNNNG
I found that I'm LOVING Lychguard. Just saying. That deathstar I made with them, Orikan, and a Destroyer Lord is just not fair if you manage to get to the opponent's deployment zone.
luke1705 wrote: It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
I'll play test this for a 1250pt tourney coming up but with maelstrom style missions we'll see.
luke1705 wrote: It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
I'll play test this for a 1250pt tourney coming up but with maelstrom style missions we'll see.
Destroyer cults just so good for the points.
I think Canoptek spam is quite strong in maelstrom. Using my list as a base, add in a unit of 20 flayed ones. 1235 points, infiltrate the flayed ones and rush the wraiths up, let scarabs and spiders handle objectives.
Have people agreed on Canoptek Swarm being limited to a single canoptek spyder, btw? It seems to be the case
luke1705 wrote: It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
I'll play test this for a 1250pt tourney coming up but with maelstrom style missions we'll see.
Destroyer cults just so good for the points.
I don't think it is great for maelstrom personally. It only does one thing, rush. It depends but transports and combat squads will be a real PITA. Spyders and scarabs give up FB very easily as well as the destroy a unit/MC cards. Hopefully you get favorable pairings.
luke1705 wrote: It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
I'll play test this for a 1250pt tourney coming up but with maelstrom style missions we'll see.
Destroyer cults just so good for the points.
I think Canoptek spam is quite strong in maelstrom. Using my list as a base, add in a unit of 20 flayed ones. 1235 points, infiltrate the flayed ones and rush the wraiths up, let scarabs and spiders handle objectives.
Have people agreed on Canoptek Swarm being limited to a single canoptek spyder, btw? It seems to be the case
How would you add the Flayed Ones to your list without making it Unbound? You'd need a minimum of 250 on top of that (Overlord + 2 Immortal min squads).
luke1705 wrote: It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
I'll play test this for a 1250pt tourney coming up but with maelstrom style missions we'll see.
Destroyer cults just so good for the points.
I think Canoptek spam is quite strong in maelstrom. Using my list as a base, add in a unit of 20 flayed ones. 1235 points, infiltrate the flayed ones and rush the wraiths up, let scarabs and spiders handle objectives.
Have people agreed on Canoptek Swarm being limited to a single canoptek spyder, btw? It seems to be the case
How would you add the Flayed Ones to your list without making it Unbound? You'd need a minimum of 250 on top of that (Overlord + 2 Immortal min squads).
luke1705 wrote: It's not one-dimensional, it's dirty. I mean, you only get 5+ RP but still. The only reason I would ever play that list is to have a thematic narrative or something. Lone benefit in my mind - you can make a wraith your warlord. YES.
I'll play test this for a 1250pt tourney coming up but with maelstrom style missions we'll see.
Destroyer cults just so good for the points.
I think Canoptek spam is quite strong in maelstrom. Using my list as a base, add in a unit of 20 flayed ones. 1235 points, infiltrate the flayed ones and rush the wraiths up, let scarabs and spiders handle objectives.
Have people agreed on Canoptek Swarm being limited to a single canoptek spyder, btw? It seems to be the case
How would you add the Flayed Ones to your list without making it Unbound? You'd need a minimum of 250 on top of that (Overlord + 2 Immortal min squads).
Oh right, flayed ones as a solo detachment was debunked. I'm still somewhat stuck in the rumour mindset, where it was assumed that all decurion auxiliary also were formations. Oh well.
Destroyer Cult Heavy Destroyers and Judicator Battalion HGC/heat ray Stalkers also look to be a good choice, albeit expensive. I wouldn't advise these options unless you were already planning to take the formations anyway, though (because of how expensive they are).
The Decurion formation also makes Flayed Ones one of the best CC units in the game weighing in at 13 points am model with a 4+ , 4++, that's crazy.
They're basically super daemons. Sure they don't have rending or anything like that but still the volume of attacks and rerolling wounds is just incredible.
Stalkers and Heavy Destroyers seem made for each other. Put a TL Heavy Gauss Cannon on the Stalker, stick it in a ruin with a unit of 3 Heavy Destroyers and enjoy 4 highly accurate lascannons on pretty durable frames.
If the HDs are part of a Cult they're even more effective.
So, I'd like to ask two things that need clarification for myself.
1. What's the point of the Edge of Eternity's Executioner "(2+)" rule? How does that affect PS if at all?
2. Can one take the Decurion formations in a Mephrit Detachment by themselves, with the bonus rules? Is there some subtlety that I'm missing?
Victory wrote: So, I'd like to ask two things that need clarification for myself.
1. What's the point of the Edge of Eternity's Executioner "(2+)" rule? How does that affect PS if at all?
2. Can one take the Decurion formations in a Mephrit Detachment by themselves, with the bonus rules? Is there some subtlety that I'm missing?
1. RAW, it has no effect (yay GW rules-writing). RAI, however, it allows the model using it to activate the PS special rule on a To Hit roll of a 2+.
2. You can take the 'Decurion' formations with a Mephrit Detachment, however the (decurion) formations won't be able to take Mephrit relics (and unless the formations is actually a part of a Decurion Detachment they won't get the Ever-living Command Benefit)
Thanks. That about answers it. That Edge of Eternity still needs a FAQ. I'm not sure if that was really the RAI or not. Was there consensus reached on this?
Victory wrote: Thanks. That about answers it. That Edge of Eternity still needs a FAQ. I'm not sure if that was really the RAI or not. Was there consensus reached on this?
Sadly I doubt there ever was or will be a consensus. People are too busy arguing wraithflight. That said what else could the 2+ possibly mean? Pretty obvious I think and I doubt anyone around my area would ever argue against it. I also doubt gw will faq such a thing.
I'm thinking about making a YMDC but I think te rules are clear on it. With Zhandrek's "counter tactics" special rule if I take an allied detatchment that are Allies of Convenience or worse and they have any/all of the special rules listed...... does Zhandrek's unit and himself have those rules too? If so looks like Zhandrekh forces his allies to share
Got my first game in vs Dark Eldar the other day.
My list was at 2k points, and was the Decurion.
The Overlord was a bargelord, with Phylactery, Phase Shifter, and Warscythe
2 units of Warriors in Ghost Arks,
1 unit of Tomb Blades, no upgrades
One unit of Immortals footslogging
Judicator Battalion with x6 and x7 Praetorains, al Rods. Heat Ray on the Stalker
Canoptek Harvest, six Wraiths no coils
Living Tomb- Obelisk
The Dark Eldar List was running Dark Eldar Primary, with a lot of venoms, some Reavers, the Grotesqiure formation, the scapal squadron, 2 Razorwings.. and that’s all I can really remember off the top of my head.
I went first and The Obelisk…. It just went to down. The Dark Eldar really had no answer to it, and it ran roughshod over most of the army. He had so many units, 3 of the spheres were firing nearly all the time, and the Obelisk is very fast. It was blowing 3 vehicles up per turn.
The Army didn’t get too much use out of the +1 BS from the stalker, since most everything was in vehicles, The Praetorians did fine though, especially dealing with all the poison. They cleaned up the grots once they were dislodged from their Raiders. This shooting phase was one of the few times I used the Formation bonus, it made a huge difference. Since the Grots didn’t get the charge, they were mitigated a bit, they did get rampage though. It didn't make a huge difference, even with the poison rerolls, and the attacks, going through a 3+ and a 4+ wasn't happening that much. He rolled fleet for his bonus as well, the combat may have gone differently had he rolled something different on that table.
Bargelord did fine, but this was mostly a product of target priority, as the DE player didn't want to pour most of his lance fire into him, and poison would be useless. He wrecked a few things.
Wraiths didn't see that much action, the Scalpel squadron removed the spyder on his first turn, so I only got one turn of the super RP. They cleaned up a few squads here and there.
His Razorwings got pretty much free reign though. I didn't really have any AA, so I will need to consider a Night Scythe in the future.
It honestly, was not that much of a fight, but I think this is more due to the Obelisk, than anything. This was probably the best matchup possible for that unit, so I wouldn’t really take it as indicator for anything.
So, let's talk CCB. I've never really found a use for it as an assault unit, too many things in the game can just instagib the Chariot (Krak/EMP/Melta grenades, MCs, Powerfists, etc), and with MSS gone, that really kills his effectiveness overall. However, he still has quite a good place as a shooting unit - he's very durable against gunfire (2+/4++/5+++ which can be bumped up in the Decurion, or given rerolls with Mephrit), and he baseline has a lot of AP3 shooting. If you forgo the 2+, he can even take the Gauntlet (AP2 template), which he can deliver up front very quickly. Some test loadouts:
Unkillable Mephrit Dynasty Detachment
CCB Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Res Orb, Phylactery, Solar Thermasite*
270 points
*Added bonus of giving him +1S on his Staff of Light
This 2+/4++ rerollable. 5++ rerolling one phase of the game. IWND across 3 HP and 3W. Hope you roll a 1 for Eternal Warrior Warlord Trait too.
Shooty Decurion
CCB Phase Shifter, Gauntlet of the Conflagrator, Tachyon Arrow, Phylactery
230 points
3+/4++/4+++ IWND. Still pretty beefy. Two one-off shooting attacks and a Staff of Light, so he's able to adapt to many shooting situations. Cheaper, too.
Cheap. 3+/4++/4+++ IWND with a powerful CC Weapon. Threw on the Gauntlet of Fire for good Overwatch and extra toasting of light squads before charging in. Still doesn't have any real way to deal with hidden Powerfists or MCs smashing the Chariot, but it should shred any Infantry or non-Assault specific unit.
Overall, I think Phylactery is a must take on him. IWND on that statline (AV13 3HP, T5 W3 with good saves) is pretty beastly, and for just 15 points? Dang, that's a deal.
Zhandrekh with the warlord trait Target priority + Stalker unit = BS10 for all non-vehicle units in range him and the stalker (and with the stalker's new 1-3 selection that can be pretty far)
How scary is this?
Now think of that with Tomb blades with their ignore cover who just need to be in range of the stalkers if they keep their TL gauss blasters. Or a Destroyer/ Heavy destroyer gun line that pretty much can not miss and have JSJ.
Flyers or drop pods or Deep strike? For flyers have a Tomb blade on a Quad gun and watch those babies burn. Deepstrike just deepstrike your own with Deathmarks(RISKY!!!!!!) and aim to be within the 12" of Zhandrek or 6" of a stalker, now you get to shoot at them with 2+ to hit 2+ to wound
Super Kitted Out Conclave Conclave of the Burning One
C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer Tank Cryptek Nightmare Shroud, Solar Thermasite, Phase Shifter
Technology Cryptek God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Solar Staff OR Veil of Darkness
505/515 points
Nightbringer is very good right now, and this formation basically makes him unkillable. Tank Cryptek, all the way. Tank Cryptek sits comfortably at T8 and has a 2+/4++ rerolling 1's, followed by a 4+++. The other Cryptek holds the God Shackle and either the Invisibility stick or the Teleport button. Either way, this unit can take an extreme amount of punishment and then the Nightbringer gets in range to do his thing. Solar Staff is for if you feel ok Footslogging them up the board, Veil of Darkness is for "Hi! Try to deal with 8 T8 wounds that have a 2+ rerollable until you drop the front guy". Throw on a Phylactery onto Tank Cryptek for extra laughs.
When they had sweeping attacks, and a 3++ save, and MSS, I wouldn't mind paying the 250ish points for cost for them.
Now however they have lost a fair amount of bite, and I wouldn't want to pay the same cost.
The base cost for a CCB and Overlord with a scythe has come down 25 points, this means that you can get one for only 155 points.
The 2+ save artifact would be the best investment imo, as it lets you put more firepower onto the lord, however its cost is quite steep.
I will be using mine mostly as a an objective grabber/ anti armour/ anti artillery platform, operating mostly in the opponents backline, making the most of its fast skimmer speed.
The barge will be jinking most of the time as it gives the same save as having a phase shifter that also effects the chariot.
Oberron wrote: I'm thinking about making a YMDC but I think te rules are clear on it. With Zhandrek's "counter tactics" special rule if I take an allied detatchment that are Allies of Convenience or worse and they have any/all of the special rules listed...... does Zhandrek's unit and himself have those rules too? If so looks like Zhandrekh forces his allies to share
So im thinking of runnig a nightbringer in my semi competitive games. (See you make da call)
Now that is has more or less been established that gaze of death can even be used in cc i want to know for sure if he gets the 2 shooting powers in the shooting phase. In the rumour phase it didnt seem sure wether it would be one or 2 shots. Can anyone give me the answer with an explanation with it as to why it can or can not?
Overall im thinking of running a decurion with living tomb world combo in competitive games. Oh the look of horror when an obelisk and 2 monoliths land at your doorstep and immediately let the infantry into your house.. Im getting shivers of excitement XD
It's quite a bit different. 15 points cheaper, which is not significant, but it not insignificant either.
The real question, is about the new Death Ray.
I wouldn't say it's worse, or better than before, Just different. It's better against AV13+ Targets, and it's still pretty good at anti-infantry duty if you need it.
I'm still not completely sold on it. I think if it was 10 points cheaper, I would probably seriously consider it. The main issue is I'm running the Decurion, so I'd have to take two of them!
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Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: So im thinking of runnig a nightbringer in my semi competitive games. (See you make da call)
Now that is has more or less been established that gaze of death can even be used in cc i want to know for sure if he gets the 2 shooting powers in the shooting phase. In the rumour phase it didnt seem sure wether it would be one or 2 shots. Can anyone give me the answer with an explanation with it as to why it can or can not?
Overall im thinking of running a decurion with living tomb world combo in competitive games. Oh the look of horror when an obelisk and 2 monoliths land at your doorstep and immediately let the infantry into your house.. Im getting shivers of excitement XD
I don't see anyway of allowing you two powers per turn.
Houseruling Dark Harvest to work wouldn't be too hard, I've been thinking: Basically the main thing is that you'd have to assume things are to new Codex standard with the following exceptions:
Overlords and Lords: As per codex, but with the option to buy Flensing Scarabs and with the rule for going nuts.
Kutlakh: As is, minus Eternal Warrior.
Toholk: Hardest to cover... I'd replace Aeonstave and Timesplinter Cloak with Staff of Light and Phase Shifter, then give him the new generic Cryptek ability, I guess?
Charnel Lychguard: As Codex, but 5 points more expensive with Rage and option to buy FS. Only one unit may be bought per Overlord or Lord.
Flayed Ones: As Codex, but troops and min size 10.
Warriors and immortals: As codex, with option to buy FS. Immortals cannot be required troops.
Charnel Scarabs: As Codex, but with 5 point per model upgrade option to swap Entropic Strike for Shred and Rend and +1 WS.
Tomb Sentinel: As in IA12, it's Heavy Support for normal Necrons but Fast Attack for Dark Harvest.
True that i do know. But are those powers shot from a single weapon? Am i being blind or something? Am i missing something? I do not want to prove or force some belief that it can be done. I just want to know 100% sure
True that i do know. But are those powers shot from a single weapon? Am i being blind or something? Am i missing something? I do not want to prove or force some belief that it can be done. I just want to know 100% sure
Under wargear it lists them as "powers of the c'tan". In the description for powers of the c'tan, it says that the c'tan can use them as a ranged weapon... Which means it's just 1 weapon. So you get 1 power per turn.
I think if the intention was for c'tan to use its power 2 times per turn, then they would have made it more explicit.
I wouldn't try and use it as such unless an FAQ stated otherwise.
On an unrelated note, nobody has pointed out yet that relentless in the reclamation legion formation has great synergy with ghost arks.
Being relentless would allow necron warriors to use their ghost arks as a combat vehicle, whilst still shooting the target in the same turn.
A potential of 40 str 4 attacks from 1 squad in a turn has the chance to cause quite a lot of damage.
Now of course they are not the best cc unit in the world, but with improved RP and the buffs from the formation, they should be more than a match for all non-MEQ units, and be on at least equal footing with most MEQs.
True that i do know. But are those powers shot from a single weapon? Am i being blind or something? Am i missing something? I do not want to prove or force some belief that it can be done. I just want to know 100% sure
Under wargear it lists them as "powers of the c'tan". In the description for powers of the c'tan, it says that the c'tan can use them as a ranged weapon... Which means it's just 1 weapon. So you get 1 power per turn.
The CCB is gonna be beastly in combat. It was only just now I noticed that CC attacks aimed at a chariot roll penetration vs the front armor. I missed that change from 6th.
BarBoBot wrote: The CCB is gonna be beastly in combat. It was only just now I noticed that CC attacks aimed at a chariot roll penetration vs the front armor. I missed that change from 6th.
I think it's still pretty good, and a lot cheaper.
For example, if you take it for your reclamation legion Overlord, you get rerolls of 1's on RP too.
So, you can get the Nightmare Shroud, Phase Shifter, Phalatery and a War Scythe for 55 points cheaper than the Old loadout. That's not bad at all. If you want to skip the shroud, you can clock it an 195 points.
This gives you a 2+/4++/4++ rerolling 1's. Not too shaby at all!
Requizen wrote:Super Kitted Out Conclave Conclave of the Burning One
C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer Tank Cryptek Nightmare Shroud, Solar Thermasite, Phase Shifter
Technology Cryptek God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Solar Staff OR Veil of Darkness
505/515 points
Nightbringer is very good right now, and this formation basically makes him unkillable. Tank Cryptek, all the way. Tank Cryptek sits comfortably at T8 and has a 2+/4++ rerolling 1's, followed by a 4+++. The other Cryptek holds the God Shackle and either the Invisibility stick or the Teleport button. Either way, this unit can take an extreme amount of punishment and then the Nightbringer gets in range to do his thing. Solar Staff is for if you feel ok Footslogging them up the board, Veil of Darkness is for "Hi! Try to deal with 8 T8 wounds that have a 2+ rerollable until you drop the front guy". Throw on a Phylactery onto Tank Cryptek for extra laughs.
That's just so pricey for the limited mobility though. Don't forget that the C'tan terrain interaction doesn't work with the Crypteks. The best IMO way to run it is cheaply, with a mandatory Veil of Darkness on one Cryptek, and maybe a chronometron/Solar Pulse for the Deep Strike turn. I'd put God-shackle (and Thermasite or Shroud) onto a third Cryptek, tucked far away in another unit, as these two will get targeted.
However, I think that the Nightbringer is back in style, just thankfully not so much to be an auto-include. Such utility, such power. His biggest MC rival will be the Wraithknight no doubt, and that's a match up in the air thanks to the mobility of the latter.
And the Knights will be his other arch-nemeses. That's just a one sided curb-stomp on their part.
What do you guys think? Can a Nightbringer successfully claim a Wraithknight versus a competent player? Does he have a chance versus Imp Knights? I dunno.
EDIT: Does the Veil of Darkness confer Deep Strike to the unit? Or just the model? What do you think was intended? Does this need to be in the included FAQ?
Going by my initial reading of the Veil of Darkness, it only confers the "Deep Strike" rule to its bearer. However, it allows an entire unit to relocate once per game using the deep strike rules, which bypasses the unit's need to have the Deep Strike rule for that purpose.
I could see a conclave of the burning one teleporting a Nightbringer shard across the table on turn 1, then popping a solar staff on the enemy turn to keep it from being shot to death. Seems pretty legit. Imperial knights would still eat its breakfast, but most other armies would have trouble with it.
Just the model, so you cannot keep the entire unit in DS-Reserve.
But you can field them and re-DS them to the enemy.
My build has the following:
-Nightbringer
1: God Shackle + Veil
2: Solar Staff
I would let the C'tan tank stuff.
With a T8, 4++ and 5+ FNP ánd Solar Staff he will hardly feel anything.
And if he loses a wound, you will use Gaze of Death and regain it before you attack. (After the 6 shots with S5AP3)
I would only take more if I happen to have points left and nothing else to spend them on.
Pretty sure they didn't mean to but the Destroyer Lord goes really well with DeathMarks and Lychguard. He comes with Deep Strike himself so he can tag along with Death Marks. Or footslog is with the lychguard.
Use Look Out Sir to make the C'tan tank a few wounds that he can heal later, then switch over to letting the Cryptek without the Shackle take the wounds.
Oh, and A Chronometron gives the entire unit a 5++/4+++ or 4++/5+++ against shooting. Against Melee, only Deathstars are an actually serious threat.
I'm new to chariots and stuff like that, but I want to make sure I get this. A CCB gets to choose where to allocate wounds, so anything less than S7 can't hurt it because you can allocate to chariot. Then you can let your guy that's on the barge tank stuff up to S10, and just eat it with the barge if its S10..: is this how it works?
What's a good 800 point Reclamation Legion that's footslogging?
One with defences like Crypteks with Chronometrons, and in very large numbers with Stalker support to make sure it reaches the enemy without taking significant casualties, and has very effective shooting when it gets there.
Waaagh 18 wrote: I'm new to chariots and stuff like that, but I want to make sure I get this. A CCB gets to choose where to allocate wounds, so anything less than S7 can't hurt it because you can allocate to chariot. Then you can let your guy that's on the barge tank stuff up to S10, and just eat it with the barge if its S10..: is this how it works?
In shooting you choose unless the attacking model has Precision Shots and rolls a 6.
What's a good 800 point Reclamation Legion that's footslogging?
One with defences like Crypteks with Chronometrons, and in very large numbers with Stalker support to make sure it reaches the enemy without taking significant casualties, and has very effective shooting when it gets there.
I don't think Crypteks with Cronometrons are worth it.
Waaagh 18 wrote: I'm new to chariots and stuff like that, but I want to make sure I get this. A CCB gets to choose where to allocate wounds, so anything less than S7 can't hurt it because you can allocate to chariot. Then you can let your guy that's on the barge tank stuff up to S10, and just eat it with the barge if its S10..: is this how it works?
In shooting you choose unless the attacking model has Precision Shots and rolls a 6.
In CC the opponent chooses which to attack.
In addition, if you get hit with a blast or template weapon, it's always resolved against the chariot.
So uh, if you want to be mean, the Mephrit Relics still have no limiter saying one per army or anything like that. Double God Shackle is S9/T9.... I don't know if anyone would really let you do that, but hey, RAW.
Requizen wrote:Super Kitted Out Conclave Conclave of the Burning One
C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer Tank Cryptek Nightmare Shroud, Solar Thermasite, Phase Shifter
Technology Cryptek God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Solar Staff OR Veil of Darkness
505/515 points
Nightbringer is very good right now, and this formation basically makes him unkillable. Tank Cryptek, all the way. Tank Cryptek sits comfortably at T8 and has a 2+/4++ rerolling 1's, followed by a 4+++. The other Cryptek holds the God Shackle and either the Invisibility stick or the Teleport button. Either way, this unit can take an extreme amount of punishment and then the Nightbringer gets in range to do his thing. Solar Staff is for if you feel ok Footslogging them up the board, Veil of Darkness is for "Hi! Try to deal with 8 T8 wounds that have a 2+ rerollable until you drop the front guy". Throw on a Phylactery onto Tank Cryptek for extra laughs.
That's just so pricey for the limited mobility though. Don't forget that the C'tan terrain interaction doesn't work with the Crypteks. The best IMO way to run it is cheaply, with a mandatory Veil of Darkness on one Cryptek, and maybe a chronometron/Solar Pulse for the Deep Strike turn. I'd put God-shackle (and Thermasite or Shroud) onto a third Cryptek, tucked far away in another unit, as these two will get targeted.
However, I think that the Nightbringer is back in style, just thankfully not so much to be an auto-include. Such utility, such power. His biggest MC rival will be the Wraithknight no doubt, and that's a match up in the air thanks to the mobility of the latter.
And the Knights will be his other arch-nemeses. That's just a one sided curb-stomp on their part.
What do you guys think? Can a Nightbringer successfully claim a Wraithknight versus a competent player? Does he have a chance versus Imp Knights? I dunno.
EDIT: Does the Veil of Darkness confer Deep Strike to the unit? Or just the model? What do you think was intended? Does this need to be in the included FAQ?
Sure it's expensive, but compared to Veil+Solar Staff+Chronometron+God Shackle, it's 60 points more for better invuln saves and a 2+ rerollable armor. It's pretty deathball for one unit, but that's about as expensive as other deathballs, and on the same level of killy + tanky.
I have no doubt that Nightbringer could slug it out with a Wraithknight. But, the Wraithknight has the mobility and shooting advantage. If it was ideal conditions (within 12" for Gaze, then into melee), Nightbringer would have it. But outside of 12" he only has Powers of the C'Tan. Which has the possibility of being able to kill the Wraithknight but isn't exactly reliable. All of them can hurt him, but obviously Transdimensional Thunderbolt and Time's Arrow are the ones that you want to roll against him.
Where can i find the Mephrit dynasty "codex" rules and such? I have a pdf from crondex but no entry there. So i was thinking WD?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where can i find the Mephrit dynasty "codex" rules and such? I have a pdf from crondex but no entry there. So i was thinking WD?
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: Where can i find the Mephrit dynasty "codex" rules and such? I have a pdf from crondex but no entry there. So i was thinking WD?
Automatically Appended Next Post: Where can i find the Mephrit dynasty "codex" rules and such? I have a pdf from crondex but no entry there. So i was thinking WD?
It's part of the book "Shield of Baal: Exterminatus". You can't get the hardback anymore afaik, but you can buy the softcover version most places. It includes the Relics, FOC, Formations, and some fluff.
What's better? A fully loaded conclave shard with god's shackle, veil, phase shifter, etc. or 2 non-conclave shards? The point cost of a fully loaded conclave is reaching the level of 2 straight shards.
Is there any other legit source besides Shield of Baal where I can get the Conclave of The Burning One formation info? Legit source like a white dwarf or something?
Pyeatt wrote: Is there any other legit source besides Shield of Baal where I can get the Conclave of The Burning One formation info? Legit source like a white dwarf or something?
Unfortunately not. Try finding someone to give you a scan of just the relevant page. Sucks spending £45 for one datasheet.
Requizen wrote:Super Kitted Out Conclave Conclave of the Burning One
C'Tan Shard of the Nightbringer Tank Cryptek Nightmare Shroud, Solar Thermasite, Phase Shifter
Technology Cryptek God Shackle, Phase Shifter, Solar Staff OR Veil of Darkness
505/515 points
Nightbringer is very good right now, and this formation basically makes him unkillable. Tank Cryptek, all the way. Tank Cryptek sits comfortably at T8 and has a 2+/4++ rerolling 1's, followed by a 4+++. The other Cryptek holds the God Shackle and either the Invisibility stick or the Teleport button. Either way, this unit can take an extreme amount of punishment and then the Nightbringer gets in range to do his thing. Solar Staff is for if you feel ok Footslogging them up the board, Veil of Darkness is for "Hi! Try to deal with 8 T8 wounds that have a 2+ rerollable until you drop the front guy". Throw on a Phylactery onto Tank Cryptek for extra laughs.
That's just so pricey for the limited mobility though. Don't forget that the C'tan terrain interaction doesn't work with the Crypteks. The best IMO way to run it is cheaply, with a mandatory Veil of Darkness on one Cryptek, and maybe a chronometron/Solar Pulse for the Deep Strike turn. I'd put God-shackle (and Thermasite or Shroud) onto a third Cryptek, tucked far away in another unit, as these two will get targeted.
However, I think that the Nightbringer is back in style, just thankfully not so much to be an auto-include. Such utility, such power. His biggest MC rival will be the Wraithknight no doubt, and that's a match up in the air thanks to the mobility of the latter.
And the Knights will be his other arch-nemeses. That's just a one sided curb-stomp on their part.
What do you guys think? Can a Nightbringer successfully claim a Wraithknight versus a competent player? Does he have a chance versus Imp Knights? I dunno.
EDIT: Does the Veil of Darkness confer Deep Strike to the unit? Or just the model? What do you think was intended? Does this need to be in the included FAQ?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the C'tan does give Move Through Cover to the Crypteks as a MC since they count as one unit per the Conclave rules. They don't completely ignore terrain/models like the C'tan do, but depending on how you run them, it can be close enough. YMMV, pun intended.
People seem to be overplaying the effectiveness of the Solar Staff though. Blind really doesn't work very well against high initiative matchups, so unless you're playing against other crons or orks..... I don't see how I4/5/6 units/models will ever need to worry about a single blind test.
He probably has a better chance of surviving against a Wraithknight than Imp Knights, but that's just imo.
col_impact wrote: What's better? A fully loaded conclave shard with god's shackle, veil, phase shifter, etc. or 2 non-conclave shards? The point cost of a fully loaded conclave is reaching the level of 2 straight shards.
I'd lean towards two independent shards, but that's just my playstyle and my meta. I've found that MTO works better for me than a single deathstar unit. If anything, at roughly the points level of 1 conclave shard, I'm thinking of bringing two T-C'tans lol. They've got the DS mobility to give my opponents smth to think about.
Kangodo wrote: Because if you activate it (do this after Deep Strike) you can only be hit with Snap Shots.
was this meant for me? I know the theory but I just can't see how it'll work when you generally play units that have a better than even chance of just ignoring that rule.
I mean, good luck if you go up against eldar lol. that's a 1/6 chance of failing it, on a single blind roll.
i could see how it works with mass blind units like the gargoyles, but on 1 shot? errr....
edit: OH nvm. you're talking about the one time only Solar pulse. my bad.
The Solar Thermasite will be nice on an Assault Olord to give extra strength to his Gauntlet of Fire.
Unfortunately I'm going to need to build a table for Nemesor Zahndrekh so I both can remember what all the Warlord Traits do, and so I can keep track of which ones hes already used.
Maybe a laminated page so I can use a dry erase marker on it?
Kangodo wrote: Nah, so far he seems quite easy:
T1: Zealot.
T2: Reroll 1's in shooting for units within 12"
T3: Keep the one from T2.
T4: Keep the one from T2
You must choose a new one each turn after the first
Kangodo wrote: Nah, so far he seems quite easy:
T1: Zealot.
T2: Reroll 1's in shooting for units within 12"
T3: Keep the one from T2.
T4: Keep the one from T2
You must choose a new one each turn after the first
Just ran a 2000 point Decurion up: Reclamation Legion is way too restrictive for my tastes. By the time I'd made every unit in it useful, I'd ran up over 900 points and only had room for two formations and a unit of Deathmarks.
Which is cool, I guess. Army wide 4+++ should make us a little predictable.
I'm now more interested in experimenting with a few all-formation armies that don't have the Decurion bonus. No Lychguard, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones or Tomb Blades doing it this way mind... But it should be good for some themed stuff such as a Destroyer Cult list with support elements that don't need to include basic troops without going unbound.
My question is the Nightbringer and Deceiver seem nice, but with only a 6" move is there any way to make them more useful, a 6" move and then having to run, even with a 4++ I feel like in most cases they will be shot down before they can do anything of value.
oz of the north wrote: My question is the Nightbringer and Deceiver seem nice, but with only a 6" move is there any way to make them more useful, a 6" move and then having to run, even with a 4++ I feel like in most cases they will be shot down before they can do anything of value.
Why yes there is, god shackle. It wont be getting the command benefits from your decurion but it does give the c'tan shard (either one you mentioned) a +1 to S and T, a variable feel no pain that starts at 5+++, and two cryptek buddies (which are upgradable with some items, one of which is a 2+ armor save and/or a veil of darkness). With veil, you can deepstrike anywhere on the board and solve that, 'but im sooooo slooooow' problem. Oh, did i mention that the crypteks get to use the c'tans toughness when the unit gets shot at?
EDIT: The source for 'Conclave of the Burning One' is in the 'Shield of Baal: Exterminatus' book.
oz of the north wrote: My question is the Nightbringer and Deceiver seem nice, but with only a 6" move is there any way to make them more useful, a 6" move and then having to run, even with a 4++ I feel like in most cases they will be shot down before they can do anything of value.
6" really does suck, especially once people realize that the C'tan are much less useful at a range, with only random shooting or run moves. Which is why Conclave of the Burning One with a Veil of Darkness is such a good option, just pop them somewhere useful.
It also gives a bit more usefulness to the Trans-C'tan. While he doesn't have any fancy powers like the two Shards, he does have Deep Strike. A relatively small model that ignores all terrain is actually a pretty good Deep Striker. Of course, he's going to be a huge fire magnet once he's down, and with only T7 4++ he probably won't last more than a turn if Scatter goes badly.
oz of the north wrote: My question is the Nightbringer and Deceiver seem nice, but with only a 6" move is there any way to make them more useful, a 6" move and then having to run, even with a 4++ I feel like in most cases they will be shot down before they can do anything of value.
Why yes there is, god shackle. It wont be getting the command benefits from your decurion but it does give the c'tan shard (either one you mentioned) a +1 to S and T, a variable feel no pain that starts at 5+++, and two cryptek buddies (which are upgradable with some items, one of which is a 2+ armor save and/or a veil of darkness). With veil, you can deepstrike anywhere on the board and solve that, 'but im sooooo slooooow' problem. Oh, did i mention that the crypteks get to use the c'tans toughness when the unit gets shot at?
EDIT: The source for 'Conclave of the Burning One' is in the 'Shield of Baal: Exterminatus' book.
Though with burning conclave you can only take a transcendent, this was mainly focusing on the 2 named shards, the nightbringer and deceiver.
oz of the north wrote: My question is the Nightbringer and Deceiver seem nice, but with only a 6" move is there any way to make them more useful, a 6" move and then having to run, even with a 4++ I feel like in most cases they will be shot down before they can do anything of value.
Why yes there is, god shackle. It wont be getting the command benefits from your decurion but it does give the c'tan shard (either one you mentioned) a +1 to S and T, a variable feel no pain that starts at 5+++, and two cryptek buddies (which are upgradable with some items, one of which is a 2+ armor save and/or a veil of darkness). With veil, you can deepstrike anywhere on the board and solve that, 'but im sooooo slooooow' problem. Oh, did i mention that the crypteks get to use the c'tans toughness when the unit gets shot at?
EDIT: The source for 'Conclave of the Burning One' is in the 'Shield of Baal: Exterminatus' book.
Though with burning conclave you can only take a transcendent, this was mainly focusing on the 2 named shards, the nightbringer and deceiver.
Actually by RAW you can only bring the Nightbringer and Deceiver as they are formally named as C'tan Shards and the Trans isn't. Stupid eh.
Uhm, the opposite.
Conclave of the Burning One can only take a C'tan Shard, which excludes the Transcendent C'tan.
You might be confused because they did use the model.. Silly GW-writers/photographs.
Kangodo wrote: Uhm, the opposite.
Conclave of the Burning One can only take a C'tan Shard, which excludes the Transcendent C'tan.
You might be confused because they did use the model.. Silly GW-writers/photographs.
Probably right, I just looked at quick, did not give full read. Was probably the fact they gave the pic of the trans. c'tan that got me messed up.
changemod wrote: Just ran a 2000 point Decurion up: Reclamation Legion is way too restrictive for my tastes. By the time I'd made every unit in it useful, I'd ran up over 900 points and only had room for two formations and a unit of Deathmarks.
Which is cool, I guess. Army wide 4+++ should make us a little predictable.
I'm now more interested in experimenting with a few all-formation armies that don't have the Decurion bonus. No Lychguard, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones or Tomb Blades doing it this way mind... But it should be good for some themed stuff such as a Destroyer Cult list with support elements that don't need to include basic troops without going unbound.
slightly off tangent, but the restrictions on the Decurion got me thinking.
The chance of you making your RP roll with a Mephrit Detachment is approximately 0.39, absent any modifiers, thanks to the rerolls of 1 on RP. The chance of you making your RP roll for Decurion is 0.5, absent any modifiers (aside from the army wide +1).
What are the thoughts on that? Is the restriction/tax for the 4+++ really worth it?
changemod wrote: Just ran a 2000 point Decurion up: Reclamation Legion is way too restrictive for my tastes. By the time I'd made every unit in it useful, I'd ran up over 900 points and only had room for two formations and a unit of Deathmarks.
Which is cool, I guess. Army wide 4+++ should make us a little predictable.
I'm now more interested in experimenting with a few all-formation armies that don't have the Decurion bonus. No Lychguard, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones or Tomb Blades doing it this way mind... But it should be good for some themed stuff such as a Destroyer Cult list with support elements that don't need to include basic troops without going unbound.
slightly off tangent, but the restrictions on the Decurion got me thinking.
The chance of you making your RP roll with a Mephrit Detachment is approximately 0.39, absent any modifiers, thanks to the rerolls of 1 on RP. The chance of you making your RP roll for Decurion is 0.5, absent any modifiers (aside from the army wide +1).
What are the thoughts on that? Is the restriction/tax for the 4+++ really worth it?
There is always the option of taking a Royal Court formation alongside a Mephrit cohort, and tossing crypteks into key units, giving them a 4+++ with a re-roll 1's ability.
changemod wrote: Just ran a 2000 point Decurion up: Reclamation Legion is way too restrictive for my tastes. By the time I'd made every unit in it useful, I'd ran up over 900 points and only had room for two formations and a unit of Deathmarks.
Which is cool, I guess. Army wide 4+++ should make us a little predictable.
I'm now more interested in experimenting with a few all-formation armies that don't have the Decurion bonus. No Lychguard, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones or Tomb Blades doing it this way mind... But it should be good for some themed stuff such as a Destroyer Cult list with support elements that don't need to include basic troops without going unbound.
slightly off tangent, but the restrictions on the Decurion got me thinking.
The chance of you making your RP roll with a Mephrit Detachment is approximately 0.39, absent any modifiers, thanks to the rerolls of 1 on RP. The chance of you making your RP roll for Decurion is 0.5, absent any modifiers (aside from the army wide +1).
What are the thoughts on that? Is the restriction/tax for the 4+++ really worth it?
There is always the option of taking a Royal Court formation alongside a Mephrit cohort, and tossing crypteks into key units, giving them a 4+++ with a re-roll 1's ability.
This is one of the reasons I'm actually really excited for this edition, there's so many ways to put an army together. Formations, Decurion, CAD, Mephrit, or mix and match.
Also, you can get a similar benefit from the Decurion. Units from the Reclamation Legion within 12" of the Overlord from that same formation can reroll Reanimation rolls of 1. So it only works for Lychguard, Immortals, Warriors, or Tomb Blades (or the Overlord himself), but that's still a pretty good benefit.
changemod wrote: Just ran a 2000 point Decurion up: Reclamation Legion is way too restrictive for my tastes. By the time I'd made every unit in it useful, I'd ran up over 900 points and only had room for two formations and a unit of Deathmarks.
Which is cool, I guess. Army wide 4+++ should make us a little predictable.
I'm now more interested in experimenting with a few all-formation armies that don't have the Decurion bonus. No Lychguard, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones or Tomb Blades doing it this way mind... But it should be good for some themed stuff such as a Destroyer Cult list with support elements that don't need to include basic troops without going unbound.
slightly off tangent, but the restrictions on the Decurion got me thinking.
The chance of you making your RP roll with a Mephrit Detachment is approximately 0.39, absent any modifiers, thanks to the rerolls of 1 on RP. The chance of you making your RP roll for Decurion is 0.5, absent any modifiers (aside from the army wide +1).
What are the thoughts on that? Is the restriction/tax for the 4+++ really worth it?
it's only for troops with the Mephrit though. It's armywide with the Decurion.
You also Ignore Shaken/stunned as a bonus for the Decurion too.
oz of the north wrote: My question is the Nightbringer and Deceiver seem nice, but with only a 6" move is there any way to make them more useful, a 6" move and then having to run, even with a 4++ I feel like in most cases they will be shot down before they can do anything of value.
Why yes there is, god shackle. It wont be getting the command benefits from your decurion but it does give the c'tan shard (either one you mentioned) a +1 to S and T, a variable feel no pain that starts at 5+++, and two cryptek buddies (which are upgradable with some items, one of which is a 2+ armor save and/or a veil of darkness). With veil, you can deepstrike anywhere on the board and solve that, 'but im sooooo slooooow' problem. Oh, did i mention that the crypteks get to use the c'tans toughness when the unit gets shot at?
EDIT: The source for 'Conclave of the Burning One' is in the 'Shield of Baal: Exterminatus' book.
Though with burning conclave you can only take a transcendent, this was mainly focusing on the 2 named shards, the nightbringer and deceiver.
you got it the other way around. With 'Conclave of the Burning One', you can only take it with the c'tan shards (the deceiver and nightbringer), the trans c'tan isnt a shard and so cant be taken with the 'Conclave of the Burning One'. You're confusion might be coming from the fact that GW used the trans c'tan in the pic even though it's the only c'tan of the 3 that cant be used. Look at the rules for 'Conclave of the Burning One', it says you have to select a c'tan shard. Now look at the necron codex, at the full names of the c'tan. The names ones are prefixed with "C'tan shard of the..." while the trans c'tan has no mention of 'shard'.
changemod wrote: Just ran a 2000 point Decurion up: Reclamation Legion is way too restrictive for my tastes. By the time I'd made every unit in it useful, I'd ran up over 900 points and only had room for two formations and a unit of Deathmarks.
Which is cool, I guess. Army wide 4+++ should make us a little predictable.
I'm now more interested in experimenting with a few all-formation armies that don't have the Decurion bonus. No Lychguard, Deathmarks, Flayed Ones or Tomb Blades doing it this way mind... But it should be good for some themed stuff such as a Destroyer Cult list with support elements that don't need to include basic troops without going unbound.
slightly off tangent, but the restrictions on the Decurion got me thinking.
The chance of you making your RP roll with a Mephrit Detachment is approximately 0.39, absent any modifiers, thanks to the rerolls of 1 on RP. The chance of you making your RP roll for Decurion is 0.5, absent any modifiers (aside from the army wide +1).
What are the thoughts on that? Is the restriction/tax for the 4+++ really worth it?
There is always the option of taking a Royal Court formation alongside a Mephrit cohort, and tossing crypteks into key units, giving them a 4+++ with a re-roll 1's ability.
This is one of the reasons I'm actually really excited for this edition, there's so many ways to put an army together. Formations, Decurion, CAD, Mephrit, or mix and match.
Also, you can get a similar benefit from the Decurion. Units from the Reclamation Legion within 12" of the Overlord from that same formation can reroll Reanimation rolls of 1. So it only works for Lychguard, Immortals, Warriors, or Tomb Blades (or the Overlord himself), but that's still a pretty good benefit.
One thing that I don't understand is the overall flap the word "Decurion" has caused. We have already seen these, sort of, in the Rising Leviathan and Exterminatus books - formations composed of other formations. That's all a Decurion lets you do, it's just more flexible on which formations you can take that count as part of it. It never really came up in games before, because the tyranid formation-formations were over 3000 points.
Overall I really like this book too. I'm excited to get some games in with it. Last night was going to be my first, but our game night got postponed due to inclement weather. We're starting a new campaign, and the first week our lists were supposed to be 750 points, 1-2 HQ, 1-6 Troops, 0-2 FA, and 0-1 Elites and Heavy. No LoW, no Fortifications. My list is going to be:
HQ - Orikan
TP - 10x Immortals with Gauss
FA - 5x Wraiths with Whip Coils
EL - Triarch Stalker (heat ray)
HVY - Annihilation Barge
I'll report back how it does after i get a chance to play it.
oz of the north wrote: My question is the Nightbringer and Deceiver seem nice, but with only a 6" move is there any way to make them more useful, a 6" move and then having to run, even with a 4++ I feel like in most cases they will be shot down before they can do anything of value.
Why yes there is, god shackle. It wont be getting the command benefits from your decurion but it does give the c'tan shard (either one you mentioned) a +1 to S and T, a variable feel no pain that starts at 5+++, and two cryptek buddies (which are upgradable with some items, one of which is a 2+ armor save and/or a veil of darkness). With veil, you can deepstrike anywhere on the board and solve that, 'but im sooooo slooooow' problem. Oh, did i mention that the crypteks get to use the c'tans toughness when the unit gets shot at?
EDIT: The source for 'Conclave of the Burning One' is in the 'Shield of Baal: Exterminatus' book.
Though with burning conclave you can only take a transcendent, this was mainly focusing on the 2 named shards, the nightbringer and deceiver.
you got it the other way around. With 'Conclave of the Burning One', you can only take it with the c'tan shards (the deceiver and nightbringer), the trans c'tan isnt a shard and so cant be taken with the 'Conclave of the Burning One'. You're confusion might be coming from the fact that GW used the trans c'tan in the pic even though it's the only c'tan of the 3 that cant be used. Look at the rules for 'Conclave of the Burning One', it says you have to select a c'tan shard. Now look at the necron codex, at the full names of the c'tan. The names ones are prefixed with "C'tan shard of the..." while the trans c'tan has no mention of 'shard'.
To be fully technical about it, there is no rules entry whatsoever anymore for a unit called "C'tan Shard". So RAW the conclave of the burning one can't even be fielded. I'm not saying i'd play it this way, of course.
While there isnt a 'C'tan Shard', there are 'C'tan Shard of the ...' What God Shackle says is "...nominate a single friendly C'tan Shard in your army..." C'tan Shard of the whatever is still a c'tan shard. Although, i do see your point that it no longer matches up verbatim I do disagree with it. If you'd like to discuss this interpretation of the rule, I invite you to make a YMDC thread (if there isnt one already).
That's just so pricey for the limited mobility though. Don't forget that the C'tan terrain interaction doesn't work with the Crypteks. The best IMO way to run it is cheaply, with a mandatory Veil of Darkness on one Cryptek, and maybe a chronometron/Solar Pulse for the Deep Strike turn. I'd put God-shackle (and Thermasite or Shroud) onto a third Cryptek, tucked far away in another unit, as these two will get targeted.
However, I think that the Nightbringer is back in style, just thankfully not so much to be an auto-include. Such utility, such power. His biggest MC rival will be the Wraithknight no doubt, and that's a match up in the air thanks to the mobility of the latter.
And the Knights will be his other arch-nemeses. That's just a one sided curb-stomp on their part.
What do you guys think? Can a Nightbringer successfully claim a Wraithknight versus a competent player? Does he have a chance versus Imp Knights? I dunno.
EDIT: Does the Veil of Darkness confer Deep Strike to the unit? Or just the model? What do you think was intended? Does this need to be in the included FAQ?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the C'tan does give Move Through Cover to the Crypteks as a MC since they count as one unit per the Conclave rules. They don't completely ignore terrain/models like the C'tan do, but depending on how you run them, it can be close enough. YMMV, pun intended.
People seem to be overplaying the effectiveness of the Solar Staff though. Blind really doesn't work very well against high initiative matchups, so unless you're playing against other crons or orks..... I don't see how I4/5/6 units/models will ever need to worry about a single blind test.
He probably has a better chance of surviving against a Wraithknight than Imp Knights, but that's just imo.
Really? Is this really possible that MTC transfers to the Crypteks? I love it even more now.
Another point: I believe you Oldcron lovers can nominate your Nightbringer in the conclave to be your warlord, and thus getting access to the Mephrit traits. Choices 1-2 hardly affect him, but choices 3 on up are all pretty good on him. If you roll a five he gets hatred, if that six, he gets IWND!
Another shenanigan with the conclave is the Immune to Natural Law rule allowing the Nightbringer to end the turn inside a fully obstructing ruin, with the Crypteks only visible, all in cohesion. Hmm.
Victory wrote: Really? Is this really possible that MTC transfers to the Crypteks? I love it even more now.
I didnt realize that but ur right. BRB - Move Through Cover "...A unit that contains at least one model with this special rule..."
The c'tan has it so any unit he's a part of gets it. nicccccce
That's just so pricey for the limited mobility though. Don't forget that the C'tan terrain interaction doesn't work with the Crypteks. The best IMO way to run it is cheaply, with a mandatory Veil of Darkness on one Cryptek, and maybe a chronometron/Solar Pulse for the Deep Strike turn. I'd put God-shackle (and Thermasite or Shroud) onto a third Cryptek, tucked far away in another unit, as these two will get targeted.
However, I think that the Nightbringer is back in style, just thankfully not so much to be an auto-include. Such utility, such power. His biggest MC rival will be the Wraithknight no doubt, and that's a match up in the air thanks to the mobility of the latter.
And the Knights will be his other arch-nemeses. That's just a one sided curb-stomp on their part.
What do you guys think? Can a Nightbringer successfully claim a Wraithknight versus a competent player? Does he have a chance versus Imp Knights? I dunno.
EDIT: Does the Veil of Darkness confer Deep Strike to the unit? Or just the model? What do you think was intended? Does this need to be in the included FAQ?
Not to put too fine a point on it, but the C'tan does give Move Through Cover to the Crypteks as a MC since they count as one unit per the Conclave rules. They don't completely ignore terrain/models like the C'tan do, but depending on how you run them, it can be close enough. YMMV, pun intended.
People seem to be overplaying the effectiveness of the Solar Staff though. Blind really doesn't work very well against high initiative matchups, so unless you're playing against other crons or orks..... I don't see how I4/5/6 units/models will ever need to worry about a single blind test.
He probably has a better chance of surviving against a Wraithknight than Imp Knights, but that's just imo.
Really? Is this really possible that MTC transfers to the Crypteks? I love it even more now.
Another point: I believe you Oldcron lovers can nominate your Nightbringer in the conclave to be your warlord, and thus getting access to the Mephrit traits. Choices 1-2 hardly affect him, but choices 3 on up are all pretty good on him. If you roll a five he gets hatred, if that six, he gets IWND!
Another shenanigan with the conclave is the Immune to Natural Law rule allowing the Nightbringer to end the turn inside a fully obstructing ruin, with the Crypteks only visible, all in cohesion. Hmm.
MTC is one of those "If one model in the unit has the rule, the unit has the rule" USRs. So yeah, those are MTC Crypteks
If you're making the C'Tan your Warlord and want to make him better, I think he's better off rolling on the Personal table. Furious Charge and Counter-Attack are good, Outflank can be situationally useful, +1VP for killing in a challenge is nice if you can get there, FNP means he keeps it after the Crypteks fall, and the last one is IWND.
Either way, making him your Warlord is cool but also makes him even more of a target. I usually like to make my Warlord a backline supporty type like Orikan or Zahndrekh, who have a good chance of surviving.
I always kind of wished Necrons had an Ethereal type of character, who doesn't do much himself except buff our other units a lot. I mean sure, Szeras has random buffs, Orikan gives Saves rerolls, Anrakyr makes Immortals slightly better in Assault, and Zahndrekh can bring Traits to do so, but we don't have a generic character that boosts our damage output. I guess as the "durable army" our equivalent is Crypteks bringing 5++ against shooting and 4+++ RP.
xpress907 wrote: While there isnt a 'C'tan Shard', there are 'C'tan Shard of the ...' What God Shackle says is "...nominate a single friendly C'tan Shard in your army..." C'tan Shard of the whatever is still a c'tan shard. Although, i do see your point that it no longer matches up verbatim I do disagree with it. If you'd like to discuss this interpretation of the rule, I invite you to make a YMDC thread (if there isnt one already).
Oh, don't get me wrong -- I fully understand with the updated book the formation is referring to our current c'tan rules entries. I was just playing devil's advocate by pointing out the silly RAW that invalidates an entire formation. I would never tell someone who wanted to use the conclave or the god shackle that they couldn't. In fact, I'd even be alright with them using a transcendent c'tan for either as well.
xpress907 wrote: While there isnt a 'C'tan Shard', there are 'C'tan Shard of the ...' What God Shackle says is "...nominate a single friendly C'tan Shard in your army..." C'tan Shard of the whatever is still a c'tan shard. Although, i do see your point that it no longer matches up verbatim I do disagree with it. If you'd like to discuss this interpretation of the rule, I invite you to make a YMDC thread (if there isnt one already).
Oh, don't get me wrong -- I fully understand with the updated book the formation is referring to our current c'tan rules entries. I was just playing devil's advocate by pointing out the silly RAW that invalidates an entire formation. I would never tell someone who wanted to use the conclave or the god shackle that they couldn't. In fact, I'd even be alright with them using a transcendent c'tan for either as well.
I would be ok with someone using the trans c'tan too if they wanted. I personally avoid people that are RAW to the grave. I usually try to go by what was best intended and not game breaking. The point is to have fun, not to nit pick every sentence.
changemod wrote: Okay, first prod at trying to design a Decurion:
Reclamation Legion:
Overlord: Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Phylactery, Gauntlet of Fire. Considering swapping Gauntlet of Fire for Voidreaper upgrade to Scythe.
Five Shieldguard in a Night Scythe, joined by Overlord.
Ten Gauss Immortals:
Ten Gauss Immortals:
Six Tomb Blades, Shield Vanes and Nebuloscopes.
Five Deathmarks.
Annihilation Nexus:
Can only be fielded one way: Barge, Barge, Ark.
Canoptek Harvest:
Six Wraiths with Whip Coils,
Three Scarabs,
Three Spyders, Particle Beamers, one with Gloom Prism,
Comes to exactly 2000. As I mentioned briefly earlier, the Reclamation Legion is pretty inflexible and eats half the army even at this size.
Reclamation Legion is 2x 10 warriors and 1x5 immortals, right?
Yep, seem to have written "Ten Gauss Immortals, Ten Gauss Immortals" instead of "Ten Gauss Immortals, Ten Warriors, Ten Warriors" which is what is actually in my list.
Here's a tactics question - I recently assembled 5 Praetorians with void blades and particle casters. The reason i did this over Rods of the Covenant was I used 1 of the warscythes from the kit to make a Destroyer Lord.
So, what's done is done. What are the best targets for these praetorians to engage? Obviously the ap2 version is best for assaulting terminators and other TEQ. These guys are AP4, rending, and have an extra attack per model. Where do i send them in the battle?
tetrisphreak wrote: Here's a tactics question - I recently assembled 5 Praetorians with void blades and particle casters. The reason i did this over Rods of the Covenant was I used 1 of the warscythes from the kit to make a Destroyer Lord.
So, what's done is done. What are the best targets for these praetorians to engage? Obviously the ap2 version is best for assaulting terminators and other TEQ. These guys are AP4, rending, and have an extra attack per model. Where do i send them in the battle?
Voidblades/Particle Praetorians are better than Rods against vehicles. The only bonus Rods have is that they can make AV10 explode with their AP2. Against everything AV11 or higher, Voidblades/Particle Casters are the clear winners.
For units, Void Blades win against 4+ in Assault, so do better against hordes or light armored armies. So it's a bit of a toss up, if you need a unit to deal with 2+ armor in assault or shooting, Rod is the choice. Against squishy, light armored targets, Void/Particle does better just by the extra numbers.
The fluff description of the Canoptek swarm in the front of the book says "unit of spyders" so there is a disconnect between descriptions in the book itself.
And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
Kangodo wrote: Nah, so far he seems quite easy:
T1: Zealot.
T2: Reroll 1's in shooting for units within 12"
T3: Keep the one from T2.
T4: Keep the one from T2
I know that is the most optimal, however, with the ability to change your Warlord Trait as needed, having a list of all of them at your fingertips will make him that much better. He's like a giant toolbox, sure you will normally just need a screwdriver, but sometimes you need to bust out the Hydraulic Torque Wrench just to get the job done right.
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
Point me to the army list entry I am supposed to use for the canoptek spyder.
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
Point me to the army list entry I am supposed to use for the canoptek spyder.
"Canoptek Spyder" is the name of the model. It has a statline and rules.
changemod wrote: And the preview in the White Dwarf had an example Decurion with a unit of two.
I know there's a tendency on here to assume the left hand doesn't know what the right is doing, but there's nothing actually listing a max, just a lack of the word "unit" in the base requirements box.
That and under the "Adaptive Subroutines" ability listed under the formation it also implies the unit has a single spyder, "...The canoptek spyder from this Formation, and all units from this Formation within 12" of the Canoptek Spyder from this Formation, benefit from the effects..."
"Adaptive Subroutines" refers to the spyder in the formation in the singular, not giving an impression of the possibility of multiple spyders. Although we are talking about GW here so this could just be incompetence in intention.
Point me to the army list entry I am supposed to use for the canoptek spyder.
"Canoptek Spyder" is the name of the model. It has a statline and rules.
Formations use full army list entries. Where do I find the full army list entry?
Yeah I mean, the codex clearly says "1 Spyder". Not 1 unit of Spyders. Saying there's no such thing as just 1 Spyder, but rather a unit of only a single Spyder, is semantic at best. The codex says that the formation consists of exactly one. I see the artwork which is confusing and possibly RAI, but in no way is that currently RAW, nor is a white dwarf example a basis for rules.
Did GW intend for a unit of Spyders? Possibly. I would venture so far as to say probably. Would I care if someone took this stance in a game against me? Not even kind of. Would I expect to be able to field this in a tournament? Not even kind of
luke1705 wrote: Yeah I mean, the codex clearly says "1 Spyder". Not 1 unit of Spyders. Saying there's no such thing as just 1 Spyder, but rather a unit of only a single Spyder, is semantic at best. The codex says that the formation consists of exactly one. I see the artwork which is confusing and possibly RAI, but in no way is that currently RAW, nor is a white dwarf example a basis for rules.
Did GW intend for a unit of Spyders? Possibly. I would venture so far as to say probably. Would I care if someone took this stance in a game against me? Not even kind of. Would I expect to be able to field this in a tournament? Not even kind of
There's a big hole. Formations pull in units and the Canoptek Harvest doesn't point to a unit. The army list entry for our best guess at a Canoptek Spyder is the unit of Canoptek Spyders army list entry.
The most RAW read would be that you could add Spyders to the 1 Canoptek Spyder but they wouldn't benefit from the formation benefits.
On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
The D. Lord works really well with Deathmarks and can get you a reliable 2nd turn charge with him.
He's a nasty piece of work on his own, being able to possibly deep strike during your opponents turn then charge in your own is pretty nice and I think people forget you can do that.
Yeah, my Destroyer Cult thought is to mix it with a Triarch formation and a Canoptek formation. Wraith wrangle, and have a fair number of Destroyers stick near the Stalker until it pops.
Please show me where this is RAW. Why can't a formation call for something on a model by model basis? Formations often call for exactly one model in single model units. Is it really so far-fetched to think that they can do this for units that are not always a single model?
Look, again, I'm not claiming that this is RAI. I don't know if it is, nor is it a particularly big deal to me. But I don't understand the chasm that people feel like they have to leap across to understand that this at least APPEARS to be asking (and mandating) that you take one and only one Spyder for this formation.
From a game balance perspective (haha) this also makes sense. Say you take 3 Spyders. Do wraiths get the benefits until Spyder A dies? Spyder B? The whole squad? The rules governing the duration of the effects do not seem to make an allowance in their conjugations for multiple Spyders either. At the very least, they give no indication as to what would happen in these cases (which would presumably happen just about every game if you had multiple Spyders in the unit)
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread about tactics. Wraiths are awesome! and FWIW, I have two Triarch stalkers on the way that I plan to model for disadvantage to use as Spyders in the Canoptek harvest (in two separate formations, I promise! )
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
He's a perfectly fine Wraith wrangler.
He may be the best wraith wrangler there is. Wouldn't surprise me to see wraithwing still using him, even at the tournament level
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
Put him in a unit of 20 flayed ones and give him a solar staff. Deep strike, pop the staff, survive, eat. He can even split off to harass another unit. All the while, your Destroyers are destroying.
Please show me where this is RAW. Why can't a formation call for something on a model by model basis? Formations often call for exactly one model in single model units. Is it really so far-fetched to think that they can do this for units that are not always a single model?
Look, again, I'm not claiming that this is RAI. I don't know if it is, nor is it a particularly big deal to me. But I don't understand the chasm that people feel like they have to leap across to understand that this at least APPEARS to be asking (and mandating) that you take one and only one Spyder for this formation.
From a game balance perspective (haha) this also makes sense. Say you take 3 Spyders. Do wraiths get the benefits until Spyder A dies? Spyder B? The whole squad? The rules governing the duration of the effects do not seem to make an allowance in their conjugations for multiple Spyders either. At the very least, they give no indication as to what would happen in these cases (which would presumably happen just about every game if you had multiple Spyders in the unit)
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread about tactics. Wraiths are awesome! and FWIW, I have two Triarch stalkers on the way that I plan to model for disadvantage to use as Spyders in the Canoptek harvest (in two separate formations, I promise! )
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
He's a perfectly fine Wraith wrangler.
He may be the best wraith wrangler there is. Wouldn't surprise me to see wraithwing still using him, even at the tournament level
Spoiler:
Formations
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units
renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will
need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to
describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific
units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List
Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules
that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains
its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.
Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound
armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part
of the Formation.
Allowing multiple spyders in the canoptek formation would be an awful idea from a design POV, as it makes the achilles' heel of the formation go away. Hence I doubt multiple spyders are intended.
A lot of formations don't have an Achilles' Heel, more that you get a fluffy benefit for setting up that part of your army in a fluffy manner. However, that isn't really relevant.
Currently you can only take one Spyder according to the rules, but I think GW should talk about it due to so much conflicting information elsewhere in the book.
Nilok wrote: A lot of formations don't have an Achilles' Heel, more that you get a fluffy benefit for setting up that part of your army in a fluffy manner. However, that isn't really relevant.
Currently you can only take one Spyder according to the rules, but I think GW should talk about it due to so much conflicting information elsewhere in the book.
But this particular formation is clearly created with an Achilles' Heel in mind. If you have three Spyders, it is pretty unlikely that all will be destroyed, making the formation's dependence on them near-pointless and the rule near-pointless.
"As long as one of your 50 Monoliths is on the table, you get x benefit"
I do think the heavy destroyer is one of the best buys in the codex now.. One of the best in all books. I'm thinking of a core like this.
Szeras
10 warriors, ghost Ark
2 stalkers with heavy gauss
3 heavy destroyers
3 heavy destroyers
3 heavy destroyers
That leaves about 800pts maybe to round out the list with a counter attack unit, a horde thinner and some anti air.
The core provides 12 incredibly reliable lascannon equivilent shots on a very resilient frame. Those heavy destroyers shoot better then Obliterators, are 70+ pts cheaper and more survivable.
My biggest problem is overcoming my disdain for spamming 3 non troop units. I can settle for 2 units of heavy destroyers, in my mind that's not spam, but 3 identical units is a line in the sand I haven't crossed in a very long time.
Nilok wrote: A lot of formations don't have an Achilles' Heel, more that you get a fluffy benefit for setting up that part of your army in a fluffy manner. However, that isn't really relevant.
Currently you can only take one Spyder according to the rules, but I think GW should talk about it due to so much conflicting information elsewhere in the book.
But this particular formation is clearly created with an Achilles' Heel in mind. If you have three Spyders, it is pretty unlikely that all will be destroyed, making the formation's dependence on them near-pointless and the rule near-pointless.
"As long as one of your 50 Monoliths is on the table, you get x benefit"
The formation was created with the Spyder acting as the hub of the formation. This is the fluffy rule as the Spyder is usually the hub and chief coordinator for Canoptek system after the Sentinel Computer.
There is conflicting information in the codex, more that a single entry and should be commented on by Games Workshop.
Mixed units of Destroyers used to be a bad idea, as they had differing priorities.
I notice though, that people are making mixed units in a lot of lists now. Any particular reason that's changed beyond destroyers being improved in general?
I like it. To be more "competitive" I would maybe look at taking at least two units of the heavy destroyers (300 points saved) out and replacing them with Night Scythes for the Immortals (260 points).
For pure Destroy fun though it still looks awesome! and would look sick on the field.
It makes a good sponge so he doesn't get gunned down and helps him wreck hordes. Throw a Cryptek in there if it isn't the Necron Detachment so he can refuse challenges for the Destroyer Lord if you need to.
Not really since it affects to hit rolls, plus he shores up a huge deficiency the unit has which is Anti-AV. I mean the whole unit can get tied up by 1 Sentinel. He can also tank overwatch shots if needed for the unit.
15 Flayed Ones is 195
Destroyer Lord w/ Phylactery , Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Total: 365
75 Attacks , Reroll 1s To Hit, Reroll Wounds, if taken as part of the Decurion 4+ RP
The formation was created with the Spyder acting as the hub of the formation. This is the fluffy rule as the Spyder is usually the hub and chief coordinator for Canoptek system after the Sentinel Computer.
There is conflicting information in the codex, more that a single entry and should be commented on by Games Workshop.
Right, that's what I mean. In this and the Judicator formation, you have a group of units that orbit, as it were, around a lynchpin unit. (And so is distinct from, say, the Doombringer Flight formation or whatever it's called). If you can take multiple Spyders (or Stalkers) you no longer have a lynchpin.
It is a bit akin to character upgrades within units. You cannot have 2 tactical marines sargents in one unit because that would remove his "lynchpin" nature.
So I conclude that multiple Spyders would contradict the apparent general nature of the formation (and general GW unit design) and so their use is not intended.
The formation was created with the Spyder acting as the hub of the formation. This is the fluffy rule as the Spyder is usually the hub and chief coordinator for Canoptek system after the Sentinel Computer.
There is conflicting information in the codex, more that a single entry and should be commented on by Games Workshop.
Right, that's what I mean. In this and the Judicator formation, you have a group of units that orbit, as it were, around a lynchpin unit. (And so is distinct from, say, the Doombringer Flight formation or whatever it's called). If you can take multiple Spyders (or Stalkers) you no longer have a lynchpin.
It is a bit akin to character upgrades within units. You cannot have 2 tactical marines sargents in one unit because that would remove his "lynchpin" nature.
So I conclude that multiple Spyders would contradict the apparent general nature of the formation (and general GW unit design) and so their use is not intended.
Your conclusion is not the only way to see it, as all the other units in the formation can move 12" while the Spyder can only move 6". This is what really holds the formation back, quite literally, since the Wraiths and Scarabs will quickly outpace the Spyder and be outside its bubble.
Regardless, this argument could go on forever as we try and rationalize it. The only way we can get an answer is if Games Workshop answers it in an FAQ.
There are too many times what we are told and what we are shown don't line up.
changemod wrote: Preferred Enemy seems a little wasted on someone with Shred to me...
Still helps with the "to hit" rolls. How is that wasted?
You get half the benefit you'd get putting him elsewhere. Less, if you consider the wasted movement potential.
I know I'd feel like I was paying for a lot of stuff I wasn't using if I fielded that.
There's no other unit in the codex that he doesn't slow down other than Infantry, I mean you stick him in Wraiths, he slows them down, You stick him with Praetorians he slows them down. He's not needed in a Destroyer Unit as he adds nothing.
I mean the only really two choices that I see for the Destroyer Lord are
Deathmarks , let's him put pretty much 18 wounds on a unit if their at full strength
Lychguard , except he can't get in a Nightscythe with them despite being Very Bulky
75 Attacks on the charge that reroll to hits of 1s , then reroll wounds.
So 50% , 32.5 hits , of those 32.5 1/3 will be 1s 10.8333 , I think should be the correct math, 50% which would be 4+ if rerolled.
37.5 hits if my math is correct. I'm not to great at probability but that seems right to me.
changemod wrote: Preferred Enemy seems a little wasted on someone with Shred to me...
Still helps with the "to hit" rolls. How is that wasted?
You get half the benefit you'd get putting him elsewhere. Less, if you consider the wasted movement potential.
I know I'd feel like I was paying for a lot of stuff I wasn't using if I fielded that.
There's no other unit in the codex that he doesn't slow down other than Infantry, I mean you stick him in Wraiths, he slows them down, You stick him with Praetorians he slows them down. He's not needed in a Destroyer Unit as he adds nothing.
I mean the only really two choices that I see for the Destroyer Lord are
Deathmarks , let's him put pretty much 18 wounds on a unit if their at full strength
Lychguard , except he can't get in a Nightscythe with them despite being Very Bulky
75 Attacks on the charge that reroll to hits of 1s , then reroll wounds.
So 50% , 32.5 hits , of those 32.5 1/3 will be 1s 10.8333 , I think should be the correct math, 50% which would be 4+ if rerolled.
37.5 hits if my math is correct. I'm not to great at probability but that seems right to me.
His big advantage for going with Wraiths was to tank hits at the front of the squad. He can no longer do that. Now you have to leap frog him to combat. Wraiths also have a cheaper better option with the Canoptek Harvest formation and it's cheaper by nearly 100 points.
Hollismason wrote: His big advantage for going with Wraiths was to tank hits at the front of the squad. He can no longer do that. Now you have to leap frog him to combat.
He still does that for shooting since he should end the turn 2" out front. For combat the wraiths are attacking at I5 before him so he will use his pile-in for his attacks. He can also challenge to reposition. Once he gets in the frontline you can allocate wounds.
You can have the D Lord join the wraith unit in the Canoptek Harvest.
He moves 6", the problem is we don't' know if hes going to move another 2" or up to 12". That unreliability is going to cause him to be stuck in the back at some point.
Just did the math, and it takes a hell of a lot to take out our Overlord if he is apart of the decurion and the reclamation legion with a phase shifter.
To kill him you need to wound him 15 times. So shove him in a Barge and you can ignore most small arms fire and its almost impossible to kill him.
It might actually be a better strategy to shove him in the barge and avoid CC. Since when your opponent shoots at you, you can direct the shots away or towards his barge rather than CC where they can just hit the barge.
Assuming BS4 and AP3 that's 27 str7 or higher shots they have to direct at your Warlord to kill him. Meanwhile he can provide his Reclaimation Legion aura and whatever other aura he might have from his trait. So is 160pts too much to deny warlord to your enemy?
Could be viable, just have him floating around shooting anything that comes near with 5 str5 ap3 shots. Give him a flamer or that special flamer to deal with hordes or elite troops respectively.
What do you guys think? Just a thought I had while trying to think how to gear my units. Also whats the consensus on the best way to gear the Destroyer Lord? Should I still deck him out and run him with wraiths or what.
Waaghboss Grobnub wrote: Where can i find the Mephrit dynasty "codex" rules and such? I have a pdf from crondex but no entry there. So i was thinking WD?
Your conclusion is not the only way to see it, as all the other units in the formation can move 12" while the Spyder can only move 6". This is what really holds the formation back, quite literally, since the Wraiths and Scarabs will quickly outpace the Spyder and be outside its bubble.
Regardless, this argument could go on forever as we try and rationalize it. The only way we can get an answer is if Games Workshop answers it in an FAQ.
There are too many times what we are told and what we are shown don't line up.
I think the catch-up issue is why one of his enhancement options is Fleet.
That said, sure, this can be interpreted differently -- my position is based on what I would do if I were a game designer.
Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Please show me where this is RAW. Why can't a formation call for something on a model by model basis? Formations often call for exactly one model in single model units. Is it really so far-fetched to think that they can do this for units that are not always a single model?
Look, again, I'm not claiming that this is RAI. I don't know if it is, nor is it a particularly big deal to me. But I don't understand the chasm that people feel like they have to leap across to understand that this at least APPEARS to be asking (and mandating) that you take one and only one Spyder for this formation.
From a game balance perspective (haha) this also makes sense. Say you take 3 Spyders. Do wraiths get the benefits until Spyder A dies? Spyder B? The whole squad? The rules governing the duration of the effects do not seem to make an allowance in their conjugations for multiple Spyders either. At the very least, they give no indication as to what would happen in these cases (which would presumably happen just about every game if you had multiple Spyders in the unit)
Sorry, not trying to hijack the thread about tactics. Wraiths are awesome! and FWIW, I have two Triarch stalkers on the way that I plan to model for disadvantage to use as Spyders in the Canoptek harvest (in two separate formations, I promise! )
Requizen wrote: On another topic, I'm thinking of fielding a Destroyer Cult. I love Destroyers, and I love the formation, even without the Decurion bonus.
My thought is, what am I doing with the Lord? His job last edition was to attach to a fast squad (Wraiths, occasionally Scarabs or Praetorians) and bring a Warscythe/MSS/PE.
Now, he can still kinda do that (again with coherency shenanigans), but my question is, what does he bring to the Destroyer Cult specifically? He's not a shooting powerhouse to help them kill from a range, they don't want to be near Assault (though he can help them out if they do get there), and his PE is wasted with them.
So my current thought is to make him a Wargear caddy for them. Bring a Nightmare Shroud + Phase Shifter so he can tank the AP2/AP3 attacks. Bring a Res Orb/Orb of Eternity to help RP. Bring Solar Pulse for pseudo-Invis. GotC can be a good way to dissuade Terminators from your back line. Heck, even Veil of Darkness could be good since it can get you out of Assaults. All of these have uses to keep a full Destroyer Squad alive (already a tough nugget to crack), or to protect that important 3-man Heavy Destroyer squad.
What do you guys think? If he's no longer a Wraith wrangler, what should the DLord be doing now? Sticking him with Lychguard or Flayed ones for the extra power and PE is also good, but what about if you're not taking an Assault unit but have the Destroyer Cult?
He's a perfectly fine Wraith wrangler.
He may be the best wraith wrangler there is. Wouldn't surprise me to see wraithwing still using him, even at the tournament level
Spoiler:
Formations
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units
renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will
need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to
describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific
units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List
Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules
that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains
its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.
Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound
armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part
of the Formation.
[/spoiler]
You want another example where a formation pulls models from unit entry? Dark artisan from DE Covens.
Dark atrisan:
1 haemonculus
1 cronos
1 talos
That doesn't mean I get to take 1 heami, 1-3 taloi and 1-3 cronos which is what your advocating here. It says 1 spyder, that means 1 spyder. Your more then welcome to reinterpret RAI in your group but that doesn't make it RAW.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: I'm not saying you can't leap frog him into combat, but that the whole point was to keep him in front to tank those wounds.
The big weakness they had the Instant Death rule is hugely mitigated by the change to T5.
I just don't see him as a huge boost to the squad as he was.
I agree, his whole purpose is gone. Before he was needed to tank ID and use MSS. MSS blows now and wraiths are T5, there is really no point in inflating their cost, it just makes them less efficient overall.
Trying to find the place for him in the army though is tough, hopefully the Nightscythe will get a FAQ update so it can in fact carry him.
He's perfect with a unit of Lychguard but the problem is no real delivery mechanism.
That's why I think the 3 units that benefit the most are Praetorians , Flayed Ones, and Deathmarks all have deep strike , Praetorians run into the same thing as the Wraiths though in that he slows them down..
bodazoka wrote: Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Can you have a warscythe and solar pulse?
No you can only have the solar pulse or the warscythe which sucks, since it means he is either useless at CC or useless at ranged. Not sure how to equip him.
Formations are a special type of Detachment, each a specific grouping of units
renowned for their effectiveness on the battlefields of the 41st Millennium.
Whilst some Formations provide you with all the gaming information you will
need to use them in your games, it is not uncommon for them simply to
describe a number of special rules that apply when you include several specific
units together. Instead of including a Force Organisation chart, the Army List
Entries that comprise a Formation are listed on it, along with any special rules
that those units gain. Unless stated otherwise, each individual unit maintains
its normal Battlefield Role when taken as part of a Formation.
Unlike other Detachments, Formations can also be taken as part of Unbound
armies. If they are, their units maintain the special rules gained for being part
of the Formation.
You want another example where a formation pulls models from unit entry? Dark artisan from DE Covens.
Dark atrisan:
1 haemonculus
1 cronos
1 talos
That doesn't mean I get to take 1 heami, 1-3 taloi and 1-3 cronos which is what your advocating here. It says 1 spyder, that means 1 spyder. Your more then welcome to reinterpret RAI in your group but that doesn't make it RAW.
I have posted RAW. The formation rules refer to units. Referring loosely to a DE example doesn't count as RAW.
Why don't you make a thread about it then in YMDC instead of inundating the thread with this goofy argument. The title of the thread is Necron Tactics, in the 40k Tactics forum not " Maybe sort of if you look at it this way and ignore the actual entry for the Formation then maaaybe mayyyybe I'm right. Maybe" thread. Seriously it's annoying to see new posts and then go "Oh it's one person being purposefully obtuse about a RAW argument that no one agrees with" and not something useful about tactics regarding Necrons.
No, the codex saying "1 Spyder" is what counts as RAW. The section you've posted doesn't preclude a single model unit from an otherwise multi-model unit - indeed both are units. However, Corsair's example of another formation where models are used instead of the full unit is spot on, as is his statement about your logical precedent. Do you think that the dark Eldar formation allows for a unit of 1-3 Taloi? As well as 1-3 Cronos? Because we have a whole lot of formations to go back and edit if this is the case, and a whole new level of incompetency by GW. Maybe this one is a mistake. Maybe GW miswrote the rules. But you can't play this one differently without doing the same for all the other formations that have the same sort of precedent on a RAW basis.
Anyhow that's all I have to say on that topic. Speaking of the D Lord, I think he is still super usable. The amount of durability you can give him is nuts and you have consistent AP 2 and armourbane. He goes from tanking for wraiths to being the "hidden power fist" if you will. My understanding of the precedent set forth by tau drones is that he can still make his assault move even while in the wraiths' unit, so he should easily maintain coherency. Only real downside is that he does rob them of fleet IIRC. Maybe not the best for the points (especially since the barge lord is so much cheaper than his previous iteration) but preferred enemy is still dope for wraiths
bodazoka wrote: Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Can you have a warscythe and solar pulse?
No you can only have the solar pulse or the warscythe which sucks, since it means he is either useless at CC or useless at ranged. Not sure how to equip him.
I recommend taking a Cryptek if you can and giving him the Solar Staff. That way he can also refuse challenges for the Destroyer Lord.
luke1705 wrote: No, the codex saying "1 Spyder" is what counts as RAW. The section you've posted doesn't preclude a single model unit from an otherwise multi-model unit - indeed both are units. However, Corsair's example of another formation where models are used instead of the full unit is spot on, as is his statement about your logical precedent. Do you think that the dark Eldar formation allows for a unit of 1-3 Taloi? As well as 1-3 Cronos? Because we have a whole lot of formations to go back and edit if this is the case, and a whole new level of incompetency by GW. Maybe this one is a mistake. Maybe GW miswrote the rules. But you can't play this one differently without doing the same for all the other formations that have the same sort of precedent on a RAW basis.
Anyhow that's all I have to say on that topic. Speaking of the D Lord, I think he is still super usable. The amount of durability you can give him is nuts and you have consistent AP 2 and armourbane. He goes from tanking for wraiths to being the "hidden power fist" if you will. My understanding of the precedent set forth by tau drones is that he can still make his assault move even while in the wraiths' unit, so he should easily maintain coherency. Only real downside is that he does rob them of fleet IIRC. Maybe not the best for the points (especially since the barge lord is so much cheaper than his previous iteration) but preferred enemy is still dope for wraiths
What army list entry are you using for that 1 Spyder?
The formation applies its benefits to 1 Spyder but that could be 1 Spyder in a 3 Spyder unit.
The formation specifies no restrictions.
The formation says specifically to use the Canoptek Spyder army entry list on page 93.
[page 93] Also, the Options:
"May include up to two additional Canoptek Spyders 50 pts/model"
There is as clear a chain of permission to add additional Spyders as there is to add a gloom prism to the Spyder.
I kind of feel 2 full Tomb Blade Squads and 1 Wraith Squad and 1 Canoptek Harvest Formation hits the sweet spot of shooting and CC troops. Also not really that expensive. 440 for the Tomb Blades and you can keep the Formation and Wraith Squad to a total of 600 points.. its incredibly expensive money wise.
HQ Cryptek 65
Troops
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Immortals w/ NightScythe
Fast Attack
10 Tomb Blades
10 Tomb Blades
5 Wraiths
H. Support
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Hollismason wrote: Why don't you make a thread about it then in YMDC instead of inundating the thread with this goofy argument. The title of the thread is Necron Tactics, in the 40k Tactics forum not " Maybe sort of if you look at it this way and ignore the actual entry for the Formation then maaaybe mayyyybe I'm right. Maybe" thread. Seriously it's annoying to see new posts and then go "Oh it's one person being purposefully obtuse about a RAW argument that no one agrees with" and not something useful about tactics regarding Necrons.
Exalted lol, I am starting to see a trend with Col_impact where he takes the most advantages interpretation no matter how weak every time then blurts RAW even when it clearly isn't. I think as far as tactics we need to look at it as being one spyder.
Either way I think that formation is more expensive then it's really worth. It is durable sure but the points you spend on "taxes" getting the perks you could simply purchase more wraiths from a detachment from mephrit.
I think the destroyer lord is a solid choice if you don't want to run a first or second CCB. He really is solid with just a warscythe when put into any infantry unit. I like him in a 20 strong block of flayed ones personally.
Eh.. it's not really a Tax though is it? I mean it comes with a great Tar Pit of a unit the Scarabs, who come 3W to a base and you can add 6 more wounds to by the time they charge. So now it's 15 W squad that's got a 6+ , 5++ and can hurt anything in the game.
Sure if you put your Canoptek Spyder out in the middle of the open field with no cover you can take them out possibly on turn 1 but onces your first turn goes they get the RP, then you'll probably get it the 2nd turn as well.
Then the Wraiths are in CC hopefully.
The extra save makes them super more viable.
I'm going to try the 20 man block of Flayed ones with a D Lord. That sounds like a good, get the hell away from this quarter of the board unit.
Hollismason wrote: I kind of feel 2 full Tomb Blade Squads and 1 Wraith Squad and 1 Canoptek Harvest Formation hits the sweet spot of shooting and CC troops. Also not really that expensive. 440 for the Tomb Blades and you can keep the Formation and Wraith Squad to a total of 600 points.. its incredibly expensive money wise.
HQ Cryptek 65
Troops
5 Immortals w/ Nightscythe
5 Immortals w/ NightScythe
Fast Attack
10 Tomb Blades
10 Tomb Blades
5 Wraiths
H. Support
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Annihilation Barge
Formation
Canoptek Wraiths x 5
Scarabs
Spyder
1825
Solid list, I like it but I don't think you have to go that route. I think you can make a stronger list and save some cash. Your taking a cad, so why not take advantage of the necrons insanely durable troops having obsec.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Hollismason wrote: Eh.. it's not really a Tax though is it? I mean it comes with a great Tar Pit of a unit the Scarabs, who come 3W to a base and you can add 6 more wounds to by the time they charge. So now it's 15 W squad that's got a 6+ , 5++ and can hurt anything in the game.
Sure if you put your Canoptek Spyder out in the middle of the open field with no cover you can take them out possibly on turn 1 but onces your first turn goes they get the RP, then you'll probably get it the 2nd turn as well.
Then the Wraiths are in CC hopefully.
The extra save makes them super more viable.
I'm going to try the 20 man block of Flayed ones with a D Lord. That sounds like a good, get the hell away from this quarter of the board unit.
I just don't think scarabs are a good tarpit though. There is WAY too much s6 out there, personally I don't think wraiths need more durability. Don't forget most things you actually want to tarpit with scarabs will just ID them in HtH as well, making it more like 5-6 t3 wounds.
bodazoka wrote: Someone did the maths earlier in regards to the wraith's now having T5 compared to T4 with a tanking Destroyer Lord. From memory at Str4 the lord was slightly better at tanking but from Str5 and above the T5 wraith's won out.
Basically what I'm saying is that we no longer need a tanking destroyer lord for the wraith's. Or at least he doesn't add as much to them (in terms of survivability) as he used to.
Id either use him like an overlord (because of PE) in a large shooty unit. Or use him as a caddy for the solar pulse weapon to help a deep striking flayed one or Praetorian unit survive a turn.
Can you have a warscythe and solar pulse?
No you can only have the solar pulse or the warscythe which sucks, since it means he is either useless at CC or useless at ranged. Not sure how to equip him.
I recommend taking a Cryptek if you can and giving him the Solar Staff. That way he can also refuse challenges for the Destroyer Lord.
I'm going to run my d lord with a unit of deathmarks give him a scythe and the artifact gauntlet they drop in and use dmark guns then next turn when the d marks cant shoot the dlord flames another unit and gives some prtection against armour for the marks.
plus it fits the background as both dlord(and "friends") plus marks are outcasts but still useful to dynasties.
Destroyer Lord with Tomb Blades? Unit of 10. That's a lot of gauss rerolling 1s to hit.
If you are taking the destroyer cult in a Decurion and want to get advantage out of Preferred Enemy... Within 12" they get 23 str 5 shots hitting on 3s and rerolling 1s. Mostly ignoring cover. I think tomb blades are my auto include this codex.
Waaagh 18 wrote: I'm new to chariots and stuff like that, but I want to make sure I get this. A CCB gets to choose where to allocate wounds, so anything less than S7 can't hurt it because you can allocate to chariot. Then you can let your guy that's on the barge tank stuff up to S10, and just eat it with the barge if its S10..: is this how it works?
I'm having a really hard time finding any real shooting in this codex. You know, the kind our old 3 annibarge + 2-4 night scythe lists had. Assault is plenty good, but I'd prefer to play a list that packs a serious punch in both phases. I have the models for a 9 spyder + 12 wraiths scarab farm -list, but I've never enjoyed playing it as much as the more typical wraithwing or AV13-wall lists. And yes, as you can probably tell, I'm talking tournament lists here.
Tomb blades with beamers are kinda ok, but really don't have the needed volume of fire against most armies. Good to have, but don't really make a list shooty. Anything else available in the "new" units?
Kholzerino wrote: Destroyer Lord with Tomb Blades? Unit of 10. That's a lot of gauss rerolling 1s to hit.
If you are taking the destroyer cult in a Decurion and want to get advantage out of Preferred Enemy... Within 12" they get 23 str 5 shots hitting on 3s and rerolling 1s. Mostly ignoring cover. I think tomb blades are my auto include this codex.
Tomb Blades Tesla and Guass are already twin-linked.
MLKTH wrote: I'm having a really hard time finding any real shooting in this codex. You know, the kind our old 3 annibarge + 2-4 night scythe lists had. Assault is plenty good, but I'd prefer to play a list that packs a serious punch in both phases. I have the models for a 9 spyder + 12 wraiths scarab farm -list, but I've never enjoyed playing it as much as the more typical wraithwing or AV13-wall lists. And yes, as you can probably tell, I'm talking tournament lists here.
Tomb blades with beamers are kinda ok, but really don't have the needed volume of fire against most armies. Good to have, but don't really make a list shooty. Anything else available in the "new" units?
20 warriors with a 5 BS count as pretty good shooting I think. Or 9 Destroyers who reroll to hit and to wound.
I think the codex has brought Necrons back into a volume of fire army, which is more in keeping with their traditional portrayal.
speaking of 20 warriors and packing in shooting into our lists.
2x 20 warriors in a decurion formation with the bonus and an overlord within 12" of both squads seems insanely survivable and is going to go a fair way to putting hull points or wounds on anything.
Is anyone going to run this? 4+ RP and rerolling those 1's seems brilliant. For 600 odd points its going to absorb a lot of shooting allowing other units to do their thing. Stick a s10 AP1 pie plate in the background for good measure.
2x 20 warriors in a decurion formation with the bonus and an overlord within 12" of both squads seems insanely survivable and is going to go a fair way to putting hull points or wounds on anything.
Is anyone going to run this? 4+ RP and rerolling those 1's seems brilliant. For 600 odd points its going to absorb a lot of shooting allowing other units to do their thing. Stick a s10 AP1 pie plate in the background for good measure.
What I love about the codex is that it brings back the classic Necron image/style like the above. The unstoppable zombie army that can kill anything with its basic weapon.
Lrt's face it -- fifth was a gimmic codex that was strong but based on totally un-Necron sillyness like min-warrior squads in night scythes zipping around and enemy commanders hitting themselves and teleporting squads of haywire ninjas. Not the implacable army of doom.
Normally I'd hesitate to put my Warlord into a non-fearless basic footslogger unit, but those should be practically unkillable. If something truly nasty charges, pop the res orb. That's a ton of models for a Necron army, should cover all bases and is pretty fluffy to boot.
I hope someone proves me wrong, but I don't think warrior-based necrons have any way of winning a major tournament, like the "un-necronlike" flyer/wraith/barge lists had.
Don't get me wrong, I think it's really cool that those kinds of lists are good in casual play now, but ways of beating hard core tournament lists should be at least a part of a discussion about tactics.
MLKTH wrote: I'm having a really hard time finding any real shooting in this codex. You know, the kind our old 3 annibarge + 2-4 night scythe lists had. Assault is plenty good, but I'd prefer to play a list that packs a serious punch in both phases. I have the models for a 9 spyder + 12 wraiths scarab farm -list, but I've never enjoyed playing it as much as the more typical wraithwing or AV13-wall lists. And yes, as you can probably tell, I'm talking tournament lists here.
Tomb blades with beamers are kinda ok, but really don't have the needed volume of fire against most armies. Good to have, but don't really make a list shooty. Anything else available in the "new" units?
20 warriors with a 5 BS count as pretty good shooting I think. Or 9 Destroyers who reroll to hit and to wound.
I think the codex has brought Necrons back into a volume of fire army, which is more in keeping with their traditional portrayal.
MLKTH wrote: I'm having a really hard time finding any real shooting in this codex. You know, the kind our old 3 annibarge + 2-4 night scythe lists had. Assault is plenty good, but I'd prefer to play a list that packs a serious punch in both phases. I have the models for a 9 spyder + 12 wraiths scarab farm -list, but I've never enjoyed playing it as much as the more typical wraithwing or AV13-wall lists. And yes, as you can probably tell, I'm talking tournament lists here.
Tomb blades with beamers are kinda ok, but really don't have the needed volume of fire against most armies. Good to have, but don't really make a list shooty. Anything else available in the "new" units?
20 warriors with a 5 BS count as pretty good shooting I think. Or 9 Destroyers who reroll to hit and to wound.
I think the codex has brought Necrons back into a volume of fire army, which is more in keeping with their traditional portrayal.
How do I get Ballistic Skill 5 on my warriors?
Have a Triarch Stalker stand near them.
I think this will also improve snap shots to BS2 (?).
Hollismason wrote: The problem I have with 20 Warrior blocks is that their 260 points, but when you consider the cost of a Ghost Ark it doesn't seem that optimal.
10 Warriors w/ a Ghost Ark is 25 points, get's 30 Shots of Gauss at 24". 40 Shots of Gauss at 12".
Total : 235
20 Warriors w/ out a ghost ark is 260 then its 20 shots at 24 with Gauss, then it's 40 shots at 12.
I think the Ghost arks the better deal AV 13 wall I think is stronger than mass bodies.
When you factor in the weapon facing for the gauss flayer arrays, your # of shots doesn't match true in-game properties. Since all the guns are opposite each other on the barge, a full barge of warriors is getting 20 shots at 24" and 30 shots at 12". The other 10 shots are either not going anywhere, or the enemy has opened up a hole in their flank and they're going somewhere else. At 12", the warrior blob is getting 40 shots on a single target, saturating it with s4 ap5 gauss. It has it's upsides for sure.
Speaking of tournament level tactics, since adamantium lance is the new hotness i think i have a combo that helps fight it. It involves Zandrekh, a Triarch Stalker, a brick of 20 warriors, and Tau allies! Tau are allies of convenience, so they're still treated as "enemy" units. A buffmander and a unit of missile pod crisis suits offer some good firepower, while sharing their hit and run, tank hunter, etc that they get from the PENchip with zandrekh and his warriors. 40 BS5 tank-hunting gauss shots have a pretty good chance of downing a knight at close range, even with a 4++ reroll save. Add in hit and run from the VRTs the commander has, and they'll only have to suffer 1 round of D-swords and stomps before turning around to rapid fire and do it again.
Yeah I just mean in total volume of fire your not really losing shots that badly. Also, with the Decurion formation the Warriors do have Relentless , I have no idea why you would charge someone with Necrons but if it was 1 or 2 guys I don't see why not.
Adamantium Lance Killer?
Hrmmm. I'd honestly just say that Mass Gauss is going to be the best bet there.
They all reroll a 4+ as long as with in 3, I don't think you need something that expensive to deal with them. They have to pick their Arc of protection a Praetorian Squad w/ Particle Casters deep striking behind them is 10 ST6 shots to rear armour, add in the 2 Triarch Stalkers Rerolling to hit and to penetrated with ST8 AP1 . Add in that the Praetorians can deep strike behind them...
So
Judicator Battalion
1 5 Man Praetorian w/ Particle Casters and Voidblades...?
1 5 Man Praetorian
2 Triarch Stalkers
Total
Destroyer Cult
1 Destroyer Lord w/ Warscythe, Phase Shifter
Well my idea is to have a list that *can* handle AdLance, while still maintaining a threat to other armies as well. In addition, while this list lacks a ton of mobility, it has a huge board presence of hard-to-kill bodies.
1850 Necrons w/ Tau Allies:
Decurion (necrons)(+1 to RP rolls) Reclamation Legion (Re-roll RP's of 1, Move Through Cover, Relentless): -Nemesor Zandrekh 5x Gauss Immortals 20x Warriors 15x Warriors 3x Tomb Blades - Nebuloscopes & Particle Beamers
Judicator Batallion (re-roll to hit, wound, and pen 1 unit*) 5x Triarch Praetorians -Rods 5x Triarch Praetorians -Rods 2x Triarch Stalkers - Heat Ray
I really don't like the Rod of the Covenant on the Praetorians or at least give one group Particle Casters. They're ST5 but now they've got 3 attacks base 4 on the charge, ST5 with Rending... I just like it more plus the whole ST6 shooting attack.
Hollismason wrote: I really don't like the Rod of the Covenant on the Praetorians or at least give one group Particle Casters. They're ST5 but now they've got 3 attacks base 4 on the charge, ST5 with Rending... I just like it more plus the whole ST6 shooting attack.
Either/or, the points are the same. My actual models will have Void/Casters but i figured for a tournament list it would be nice to sneak some AP2 in there. BS5 gauss can handle hordes pretty well.
I think you come out a bit ahead on the particle casters with the ability to deep strike, specifically if the Triarchs are in LOS of the target that has AV10 Rear like Knights. Being Able to Reroll Armour and Hits against a Knight makes a pretty nasty combo.
The AP2 is nice though for the +1 Damage , if they pick the Rear Arc, then well that's not really a good idea.
I dunno, I just like the extra attack and the ST6 shooting.
The Judicator Battalion is a hard fit into a army though..
Minimum Cost : 405
Destroyer Cult minimum Cost : 480
Does not leave a lot of room to work with which is why I think if your taking the Judicator , it's probably best to just not take a Decurion and just take it as it's own formation.
Hollismason wrote: The problem I have with 20 Warrior blocks is that their 260 points, but when you consider the cost of a Ghost Ark it doesn't seem that optimal.
10 Warriors w/ a Ghost Ark is 25 points, get's 30 Shots of Gauss at 24".
40 Shots of Gauss at 12".
Total : 235
20 Warriors w/ out a ghost ark is 260 then its 20 shots at 24 with Gauss, then it's 40 shots at 12.
I think the Ghost arks the better deal AV 13 wall I think is stronger than mass bodies.
Difference is AV13 quantum shielding isn't hard to crack at all, a 20 man set of warriors rerolling 1's and a 4+ 4+++ is insanely hard to put down.
Also as noted you are overestimating the shot count.
What do people think of Orikan the Diviner? I'm beginning to like his new rules. Permanent Empowered state is cool; low points cost of 120 is cool, eternal warrior is cool, AP2 close combat weapon is cool as well.
And he improves the WBB roll of a squad he is attached to by +1, just like a normal cryptek, and also allows them to re-roll saving throws of 1 (both armor and inv.)
I think this guy would be awesome leading a 10 man Lychguard shield unit into the enemy DZ. By the time they arrive they will have soaked ungodly amounts of firepower and he'll probably also gained the Empowered state.
2x 20 warriors in a decurion formation with the bonus and an overlord within 12" of both squads seems insanely survivable and is going to go a fair way to putting hull points or wounds on anything.
Is anyone going to run this? 4+ RP and rerolling those 1's seems brilliant. For 600 odd points its going to absorb a lot of shooting allowing other units to do their thing. Stick a s10 AP1 pie plate in the background for good measure.
What I love about the codex is that it brings back the classic Necron image/style like the above. The unstoppable zombie army that can kill anything with its basic weapon.
Lrt's face it -- fifth was a gimmic codex that was strong but based on totally un-Necron sillyness like min-warrior squads in night scythes zipping around and enemy commanders hitting themselves and teleporting squads of haywire ninjas. Not the implacable army of doom.
Well. Yes I see what you are saying but it doesn't just have to be the warriors, nothing stopping it being that plus wraiths etc. I mean we have some cheaper insanely good options to throw in there, the 20 man blocks would just be an anvil.
I'm not a competitive player though so I'm just spitballing.
Hollismason wrote: The problem I have with 20 Warrior blocks is that their 260 points, but when you consider the cost of a Ghost Ark it doesn't seem that optimal.
10 Warriors w/ a Ghost Ark is 25 points, get's 30 Shots of Gauss at 24".
40 Shots of Gauss at 12".
Total : 235
20 Warriors w/ out a ghost ark is 260 then its 20 shots at 24 with Gauss, then it's 40 shots at 12.
I think the Ghost arks the better deal AV 13 wall I think is stronger than mass bodies.
Difference is AV13 quantum shielding isn't hard to crack at all, a 20 man set of warriors rerolling 1's and a 4+ 4+++ is insanely hard to put down.
Also as noted you are overestimating the shot count.
Yeah I agree I probably am overestimating the shots, I just like the Ghost Ark more. Cheaper, Mobile, AV13 can get ignored if you have other threats in the army like Wraiths or Tomb Blades. Plus the movement to grab objectives with them.
Sir Arun wrote: What do people think of Orikan the Diviner? I'm beginning to like his new rules. Permanent Empowered state is cool; low points cost of 120 is cool, eternal warrior is cool, AP2 close combat weapon is cool as well.
And he improves the WBB roll of a squad he is attached to by +1, just like a normal cryptek, and also allows them to re-roll saving throws of 1 (both armor and inv.)
I think this guy would be awesome leading a 10 man Lychguard shield unit into the enemy DZ. By the time they arrive they will have soaked ungodly amounts of firepower and he'll probably also gained the Empowered state.
The problem though I have with him is he is finicky , it's not a guarentee and there is no way to reroll that at all. So I mean he could be sitting around with that squad with his thumb up his butt. Or you just delivered a MC into your opponent with a unit of Lychguard. It's just to unreliable to be thought of Competitively.
Can anyone tell me what the Mephrit Dynasty Cad is , what's the ability? +1 RP or Reroll 1s for the Troops of the army.
Well How about the idea of a brick of 20 warriors, while the other warrior unit is 10 in a ghost ark? The ark can repair warriors on foot as they advance, while itself adding firepower and mobility to the list.
I feel like the +1 bonus to RP is so good that taking a Decurion should be mandatory.
Mephrit is 1-2 HQ 3-8 Troops 0-3 Elite, Fast, Heavy 0-1 LoW 0-1 Fortification
Command benefits are Re-roll mephrit warlord traits, and re-roll 1's on RP for troops units. A reclamation legion and decurion are far more survivable with +1 RP AND re-roll 1's on RP for the reclamation units.
I think that's the best tactic if your going to go with a 20 man block. I dunno I think right now everyone is kind of trying to figure out the best "base" for the Decurion to me..
Overlord w/ Phase Shifter, Warscythe, Phylactery
10 Warriors in a Ghost Ark
15 Warriors on foot
5 Immortals in a Night Scythe
Total : 785
A camping unit
A mobile unit
A Flying Objective Grabbing unit
That's the best I can come up with.
I'm just not impressed anymore with Nightscythes though. It's to much of a points increase and nerf to make super viable.
For the cost and utility i agree. I only just re-started my necron army (I sold something like 7000 points worth a few years ago) and have 3 currently. I'll probably get 2 or 4 more boxes of blades as time goes on.
Yeah the whole ignore cover thing really allows you to go after Wave Serpents which I think is a huge deal.
2 Squads of 10 will reliably kill a Wave Serpent a Turn and are in the Decurion, pretty much immune to their shooting power. 3+ Armour and 4+ save. Yeah, that's intense. Especially since they reroll 1s when near the bargle lord.
Trying to fit a Destroyer Cult , the Reclamation Legion, and a Canoptek Harvest into a 1850 list is really really difficult.
Honestly
Barge Lord + 2 Squads of 15 Warriors, 1 Squad of Immortals with Night Scythe, and then a 10 man tomb blade is probably the best bet.
Hollismason wrote: I think you come out a bit ahead on the particle casters with the ability to deep strike, specifically if the Triarchs are in LOS of the target that has AV10 Rear like Knights.
tetrisphreak wrote:Speaking of tournament level tactics, since adamantium lance is the new hotness i think i have a combo that helps fight it. It involves Zandrekh, a Triarch Stalker, a brick of 20 warriors, and Tau allies! Tau are allies of convenience, so they're still treated as "enemy" units. A buffmander and a unit of missile pod crisis suits offer some good firepower, while sharing their hit and run, tank hunter, etc that they get from the PENchip with zandrekh and his warriors. 40 BS5 tank-hunting gauss shots have a pretty good chance of downing a knight at close range, even with a 4++ reroll save. Add in hit and run from the VRTs the commander has, and they'll only have to suffer 1 round of D-swords and stomps before turning around to rapid fire and do it again.
tetrisphreak wrote:Well my idea is to have a list that *can* handle AdLance, while still maintaining a threat to other armies as well. In addition, while this list lacks a ton of mobility, it has a huge board presence of hard-to-kill bodies.
For AdLance, relying on Gauss to glance them down, even with huge numbers of Warriors, is pretty iffy. And we have really good anti-tank options as it is - Heavy Destroyers, especially if we take them in the Formation and group them with a Stalker. Heavy Destroyers have the mobility to hit multiple sides, have PE, and reroll all penetrating hits. Even in the worst case scenario, against Front Armor 13 and without the Stalker to make them BS5, they're hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and glancing on 4s rerolling all. That's a 58% chance to get a Hull Point off Front Armor before the saves. Once you start hitting Side Armor, and if you have the Stalker's bonus, that jumps to a 65% chance to get a hull point. And of course, as AP2 guns, there's always the chance of getting more from Explodes!
So while it's not likely that HDestroyers will instagib a Knight in one round of shooting, they're basically guaranteed to get ~2-4 hull points per turn, making them much easier pickings for the rest of your army, like Barges, Gauss, or HS options.
Sir Arun wrote:What do people think of Orikan the Diviner? I'm beginning to like his new rules. Permanent Empowered state is cool; low points cost of 120 is cool, eternal warrior is cool, AP2 close combat weapon is cool as well.
And he improves the WBB roll of a squad he is attached to by +1, just like a normal cryptek, and also allows them to re-roll saving throws of 1 (both armor and inv.)
I think this guy would be awesome leading a 10 man Lychguard shield unit into the enemy DZ. By the time they arrive they will have soaked ungodly amounts of firepower and he'll probably also gained the Empowered state.
I love this new Orikan. Shield Lychguard that include Orikan and the Reclamation Legion's Overlord only have a 9% chance of taking a wound. Laugh as you have a 3++ rerolling 1s followed by a 4+++ rerolling 1s. That's a shieldwall, baby.
For AdLance, relying on Gauss to glance them down, even with huge numbers of Warriors, is pretty iffy. And we have really good anti-tank options as it is - Heavy Destroyers, especially if we take them in the Formation and group them with a Stalker. Heavy Destroyers have the mobility to hit multiple sides, have PE, and reroll all penetrating hits. Even in the worst case scenario, against Front Armor 13 and without the Stalker to make them BS5, they're hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and glancing on 4s rerolling all. That's a 58% chance to get a Hull Point off Front Armor before the saves. Once you start hitting Side Armor, and if you have the Stalker's bonus, that jumps to a 65% chance to get a hull point. And of course, as AP2 guns, there's always the chance of getting more from Explodes!
So while it's not likely that HDestroyers will instagib a Knight in one round of shooting, they're basically guaranteed to get ~2-4 hull points per turn, making them much easier pickings for the rest of your army, like Barges, Gauss, or HS options.
Heavy Destroyers can certainly do some work. However it must be pointed out that in a Judicator Battalion, only the models from that formation get the re-rolls to hit, wound, and Penetrate. (2x units of praetorians and the unit of stalkers).
Also, tank-hunters on gauss weapons makes them very useful at range, and in large numbers for relatively small points. re-rolling for those 6's to glance will kill most tanks in the game in a single volley, almost definitely so when in rapid fire range. That's why the crisis commander is key here - he's siphoning off useful USRs for zandrekh to give his posse. Also they're relentless, so if they blow apart a transport they can charge what was inside, such as tactical marines etc. At the end of the enemy turn if they're still locked in CC, hit and run out (albeit at a lowly I2 check).
For AdLance, relying on Gauss to glance them down, even with huge numbers of Warriors, is pretty iffy. And we have really good anti-tank options as it is - Heavy Destroyers, especially if we take them in the Formation and group them with a Stalker. Heavy Destroyers have the mobility to hit multiple sides, have PE, and reroll all penetrating hits. Even in the worst case scenario, against Front Armor 13 and without the Stalker to make them BS5, they're hitting on 3s rerolling 1s and glancing on 4s rerolling all. That's a 58% chance to get a Hull Point off Front Armor before the saves. Once you start hitting Side Armor, and if you have the Stalker's bonus, that jumps to a 65% chance to get a hull point. And of course, as AP2 guns, there's always the chance of getting more from Explodes!
So while it's not likely that HDestroyers will instagib a Knight in one round of shooting, they're basically guaranteed to get ~2-4 hull points per turn, making them much easier pickings for the rest of your army, like Barges, Gauss, or HS options.
Heavy Destroyers can certainly do some work. However it must be pointed out that in a Judicator Battalion, only the models from that formation get the re-rolls to hit, wound, and Penetrate. (2x units of praetorians and the unit of stalkers).
Also, tank-hunters on gauss weapons makes them very useful at range, and in large numbers for relatively small points. re-rolling for those 6's to glance will kill most tanks in the game in a single volley, almost definitely so when in rapid fire range. That's why the crisis commander is key here - he's siphoning off useful USRs for zandrekh to give his posse. Also they're relentless, so if they blow apart a transport they can charge what was inside, such as tactical marines etc. At the end of the enemy turn if they're still locked in CC, hit and run out (albeit at a lowly I2 check).
Destroyer Cult: Extermination Protocols: All units in this Formation re-roll failed To Wound rolls and Armour Penetration rolls in the Shooting phase.
Yeah, the Destroyer Cult minimally shoots out 18 Gauss shots that reroll 1s to hit and reroll Armour Penetration Rolls is pretty insane.
The problem though is that the Judicator battalion and the Destroyer Cult come in at a really really hefty price minimum of like 1000 points for both which doesn't leave a lot of room left over for much else. However it mow things down. Despite losing the Decurions +1 RP , it's still worth it as a Formation with a Primary Detachment Cad.
I guess like
Overlord
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
5 Immortals
3 Tomb Blades
Total : 479
Judicator
5 Praetorians
5 Praetorians
1 Triarch Stalker
Total : 405
Destroyer Cult
1 Destroyer Lord
1 3 Man Destroyer
1 3 Man Destroyer
1 3 Man Destroyer
1 1 Man H. Destroyer
Total : 520
Combined Total: 1404
I have no idea where you would go from there if you were doing 1850 but I'm totally interested to hear peoples thoughts!
Bargelord (Orb, Scythe, Shroud, Phylactery, Phase)
10x Warriors w/ Ark
10x Warriors w/ Ark
5x Immortals
some tomb blades
5x Lychgard w/ Scythes (alternatively, take a gak-load of Flayed Ones)
5x Lychgard w/ Scythes
Living Tomb
Take an Obelisk and the 2 Monoliths w/ the Living Tomb formation. Hold Lychgards in reserve and deploy 2x Arks, Immortals, Tomb Blades, and your Bargelord in cover and choose to go second.
Turn 2 Advance Troops and Bargelord and drop in Obelisk and Monoliths behind enemy lines, immediately crap out 2x Lychgards or 2x more warrior squads or a butt-load of Flayed Ones (any jump or infantry units) directly from the Monoliths which Deep Strike with no scatter within 12" of the Obelisk due to the Tomb Nexus formation rule. It sounds hellishly silly and expensive points-wise but it could be a ton of fun. If all else fails you make a giant AV14 anti-flier/anti-Wave Serpent wall for your army to advance up behind.
Yeah that's a given probably, but man that only leaves 346 points left over let's just say 300 and give Warscythes to the Overlord and Destroyer Lord. Say you get 1 Ghost Ark.
It's very much the polar opposite of the last codex lists that had the lack of AP2 as one of their main weaknesses. No idea if it works, but I'll definitely try it out when I have time to repaint all the destroyers I have from ye olden days, and get some preatorians.
Bargelord (Orb, Scythe, Shroud, Phylactery, Phase)
10x Warriors w/ Ark
10x Warriors w/ Ark
5x Immortals
some tomb blades
5x Lychgard w/ Scythes (alternatively, take a gak-load of Flayed Ones)
5x Lychgard w/ Scythes
Living Tomb
Take an Obelisk and the 2 Monoliths w/ the Living Tomb formation. Hold Lychgards in reserve and deploy 2x Arks, Immortals, Tomb Blades, and your Bargelord in cover and choose to go second.
Turn 2 Advance Troops and Bargelord and drop in Obelisk and Monoliths behind enemy lines, immediately crap out 2x Lychgards or 2x more warrior squads or a butt-load of Flayed Ones (any jump or infantry units) directly from the Monoliths which Deep Strike with no scatter within 12" of the Obelisk due to the Tomb Nexus formation rule. It sounds hellishly silly and expensive points-wise but it could be a ton of fun. If all else fails you make a giant AV14 anti-flier/anti-Wave Serpent wall for your army to advance up behind.
Remember - the Obelisk comes in Turn 2 automatically, but the Monoliths still need to roll to come in. When I use my Living Tomb (And I will ), I'll be bringing Zahndrekh and giving him one of the Reserve Warlord Traits on turn 2.
It's very much the polar opposite of the last codex lists that had the lack of AP2 as one of their main weaknesses. No idea if it works, but I'll definitely try it out when I have time to repaint all the destroyers I have from ye olden days, and get some preatorians.
I like your list better but I'd probably change to Particle Casters or mix the two. 1 Particle Caster, 1 Rod of the Covenant. That's seems really solid.
Hollismason wrote: Yeah, the Destroyer Cult minimally shoots out 18 Gauss shots that reroll 1s to hit and reroll Armour Penetration Rolls is pretty insane.
The problem though is that the Judicator battalion and the Destroyer Cult come in at a really really hefty price minimum of like 1000 points for both which doesn't leave a lot of room left over for much else. However it mow things down. Despite losing the Decurions +1 RP , it's still worth it as a Formation with a Primary Detachment Cad.
I guess like
Overlord
10 Warriors
10 Warriors
5 Immortals
3 Tomb Blades
Total : 479
Judicator
5 Praetorians
5 Praetorians
1 Triarch Stalker
Total : 405
Destroyer Cult
1 Destroyer Lord
1 3 Man Destroyer
1 3 Man Destroyer
1 3 Man Destroyer
1 1 Man H. Destroyer
Total : 520
Combined Total: 1404
I have no idea where you would go from there if you were doing 1850 but I'm totally interested to hear peoples thoughts!
I thought they still got the +1 to WBB, but not the rerolling of 1 when attempting so. I thought that part came from the Reclamation.
No one said it did, just that it rerolls 1s to hit and Rerolls Wounds and Army penetration.
Having the Destroyers which are actually small enough units to surround the Triarch to get the +1 BS with in 6inchs pretty much is a auto hit 18 Gauss Shots.. it's BS5 Twin Linked.
Then you reroll wounds.
Someone can check my math. I think I'm doing the percentages right
To hit - 17.43
Total Wounds
T3 - 17.49
T4 - 15.25
T5 - 13.5
T6- 9.96
T7- 5.4
I think that's right. It's just a insane amount of Damage output.
As someone who frequently plays with and against Necrons, AV13 most certainly is hard to crack - especially when taken in multiples, and even more so when it can Jink for 4+ cover.
Also, for as durable as Warriors are, I'm not sure you appreciate just how much firepower AV13 outright ignores.
Yes its patchy to rely on the meager s7 and warrior blocks to put 6 HP's on of course, at best you can put 4 on and he will save 1-3 of them from a ton of guass.
But that is the warm up for charging him with cheap warscythes and wraiths surely...it sucks having to fight them and watch the HP slowly stack up to 6 but he is only swinging back and stomping with 3 hits (and whatever stomps he gets) the wraiths could well survive long enough.
Is there not some kind of special rule that allows you to shoot super heavies in combat...given their size and durability there definitely should be.
I honestly have been thinking of picking up some Tau to ally in for "tournament/competitive lists". They can help with hard anti-tank shooting and anti air, two things our lists lack.
Requizen wrote: I honestly have been thinking of picking up some Tau to ally in for "tournament/competitive lists". They can help with hard anti-tank shooting and anti air, two things our lists lack.
Hollismason wrote: I think the Destroyer Cult is more Viable with a normal CAD and multiple Triarchs as your troop tax is lower and you can take a 65 point HQ.
1 Cryptek
2 Squads of 5 Immortals
Total 235
Then the rest of the army can just be Triarchs and Destroyers.
Or take the Judicator Battalion and the Destroyer Cult formations, between those 2 you can get 1850 points.
Kholzerino wrote: Destroyer Lord with Tomb Blades? Unit of 10. That's a lot of gauss rerolling 1s to hit.
If you are taking the destroyer cult in a Decurion and want to get advantage out of Preferred Enemy... Within 12" they get 23 str 5 shots hitting on 3s and rerolling 1s. Mostly ignoring cover. I think tomb blades are my auto include this codex.
I am running no less then 2 units of them in my competitive builds.. 3+ 4+ cover 4+++ RP.
Hollismason wrote: I think the Destroyer Cult is more Viable with a normal CAD and multiple Triarchs as your troop tax is lower and you can take a 65 point HQ.
1 Cryptek
2 Squads of 5 Immortals
Total 235
Then the rest of the army can just be Triarchs and Destroyers.
Or take the Judicator Battalion and the Destroyer Cult formations, between those 2 you can get 1850 points.
That's currently what I'm in the process of working on. I'm thinking the Destroyer Lord will join the Void Praetorians and the Rod ones go at it alone. I'll have a list tonight that I'll post here when completed.
It's very much the polar opposite of the last codex lists that had the lack of AP2 as one of their main weaknesses. No idea if it works, but I'll definitely try it out when I have time to repaint all the destroyers I have from ye olden days, and get some preatorians.
Actually, I might be tempted to switch one of the arks to 8 more warriors, because the destroyer lord doesn't really have anywhere to go in this list and his PE would really benefit a big unit of warriors. I'd usually put the overlord there as well in that case. I usually prefer 10 warriors in an ark to 18 on foot, but maybe not here.
