I'm personally having trouble making out the individual details on the sprues. It looks like they cranked up the wild hair to 11 and added alot of bling in the typical AOS pattern but with rivets instead of skulls popping out everywhere. Is it just me or do the pieces look a bit like they're incorporating Chaos Dwarf stylings a bit as well?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm a fan of heroic scale models, but does anyone else find that axe to be ludicrously oversized?
[edit] To specify, the one on the sprue.
I dont think dwarfs where ever heroic scale, hell i do not even think GW ever did anything heroic scale maybe the primarchs? Most have big heads and hands lol.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm a fan of heroic scale models, but does anyone else find that axe to be ludicrously oversized?
[edit] To specify, the one on the sprue.
I dont think dwarfs where ever heroic scale, hell i do not even think GW ever did anything heroic scale maybe the primarchs? Most have big heads and hands lol.
The big heads and hands are exactly what people are talking about by 'heroic scale'... GW's models have always been somewhat chibbied to make them look bulkier and more impressive on the table.
Meanwhile, those Knights are a bit special. Say what you want about the game itself, the model releases have for the most part been superb so far.
I'm interested in the new slayers if I can make them rank up for use in 8th edition. In fact, if I can do this, I will finally pull the trigger in the dwarf army box that's been gathering dust at my FLGS forever.
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm a fan of heroic scale models, but does anyone else find that axe to be ludicrously oversized?
[edit] To specify, the one on the sprue.
Yep. Far too big. It's larger than his torso.
The old Deamon/Dragon slayers had some ridiculously sized axes as well but they at least had the excuse of being really old and they were made in metal so the weapons had to be pretty chunky for them not to bend to easily.
When it comes to slayer axes, it's really best to err toward too big. It'd be much worse to look at the sprue and say, well those axes are bit weedy now.
the Slayer on the first edition Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay book cover was what made me a Warhammer fanatic 30 years ago...
the new guy is perfectly in line with that image...
even better, actually, with the addition of a cool hoplite helmet, so this guy is definitely got my attention...
an axe, nor a mohawk, can never be too big, in my opinion...
the oversized weapons, and one-the-top style of GW is exactly what i like best in my models...
i love that the minis are like a 3-D comic book image...
i like to collect true-scale minis, but i can't say that i like painting them...
give me a mad Dwarf with a huge axe, and giant mohawk, to paint any day of the week...
bring it...
i love painting fire, and skulls...
those were the two things that i had the most passion for drawing in my sketchbook as a kid...
i was a natural born GW fan...
bring it...
i love painting fire, and skulls...
those were the two things that i had the most passion for drawing in my sketchbook as a kid...
i was a natural born GW fan...
cheers
jah
While I am not a fan of the GW fantasy aesthetic but it does comprise over the top weapons and costumes.
In this context, a helmet with a massive plume of fire installed on top of it makes perfect sense for a group of Dwarves.
It reminds me of Captain Blackbeard, who put lit slow matches in his hair to create a fearsome aspect.
I'm not sure the Mohawk even is fire. Just looks like a Mohawk to me. The helmet bit and hair look exactly like the bottom dwarves in the art shown in the first post, and theirs is just hair.
I want the Varan Knights. I don't want to pay for them though...
The Duardin are a race that I have seen a lot of anticipation for, so it is possible that they will help the (possibly? Likely?) flagging sales of Sigmarhammer. The game had struggled so far without models that looked like must-buys for anyone who wasn't interested in the starter set.
The new WHite Dwarf mentions that a new unit for the Everchosen is coming next week - the Gaunt Summoners. That wizard on the disc that was previewed earlier?
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm a fan of heroic scale models, but does anyone else find that axe to be ludicrously oversized?
[edit] To specify, the one on the sprue.
I dont think dwarfs where ever heroic scale, hell i do not even think GW ever did anything heroic scale maybe the primarchs? Most have big heads and hands lol.
The big heads and hands are exactly what people are talking about by 'heroic scale'... GW's models have always been somewhat chibbied to make them look bulkier and more impressive on the table.
Meanwhile, those Knights are a bit special. Say what you want about the game itself, the model releases have for the most part been superb so far.
But... Heroic scale is being 9 heads tall so that is the wrong direction.
Now sure how to double quote so I will add it here they arnt slayers anymore tho they are fire dwarfs so they build their own stuff not like old wfb"
I can't find any definition for what exactly heroic scale is so I don't think it does mean nine heads tall, people just use it to mean the bigger heads and hands of most GW models (and other manufacturers).
You really think GW would have a chance? Wotc has Hasbro backing them gw has gw
Automatically Appended Next Post:
MongooseMatt wrote: The new WHite Dwarf mentions that a new unit for the Everchosen is coming next week - the Gaunt Summoners. That wizard on the disc that was previewed earlier?
Do Guant summoners summon actual Gaunts? Fantasy nids!
Not really a big fan of these new chaos guys.. they just look too busy. Hoping the dwarves will look good but I'm waiting for the official painted pics to judge
ImAGeek wrote: I'm not sure the Mohawk even is fire. Just looks like a Mohawk to me. The helmet bit and hair look exactly like the bottom dwarves in the art shown in the first post, and theirs is just hair.
The reason GW dwarfs are butterballs with feet just glued on the bottom is because their humans already had dwarf proportions. There was nowhere else to go.
jah-joshua wrote:
an axe, nor a mohawk, can never be too big, in my opinion...
This is why we can't have nice things.
i love that the minis are like a 3-D comic book image...
The Dwarf looks kinda cool, but a painted pic will help greatly.
As for the new Knights - The feel a little busy but seem to have potential. I think a couple of alternate paint schemes will help move the needle a bit.
ImAGeek wrote: I can't find any definition for what exactly heroic scale is so I don't think it does mean nine heads tall, people just use it to mean the bigger heads and hands of most GW models (and other manufacturers).
Looks like you're confusing heroic proportions in art with 'heroic scale' in gaming miniatures. The latter is most definitely chunky, oversized features.
Vermis wrote: Looks like you're confusing heroic proportions in art with 'heroic scale' in gaming miniatures. The latter is most definitely chunky, oversized features.
No it is the same scale used in sculpting trust me three years of school taught me that.
Vermis wrote: Looks like you're confusing heroic proportions in art with 'heroic scale' in gaming miniatures. The latter is most definitely chunky, oversized features.
No it is the same scale used in sculpting trust me three years of school taught me that.
In tabletop gaming, "Heroic" scale has been used to describe exaggerated features, such as head and hands, for as long as I can remember..
GWs scale in particular has always been described as 28mm "Heroic", for at least the last 15 years or so, due to the fact it is decidedly different from true scale 28mm models.
Vermis wrote: Looks like you're confusing heroic proportions in art with 'heroic scale' in gaming miniatures. The latter is most definitely chunky, oversized features.
No it is the same scale used in sculpting trust me three years of school taught me that.
In tabletop gaming, "Heroic" scale has been used to describe exaggerated features, such as head and hands for as long as I can remember..
GWs scale in particular has always been described as 28mm "Heroic", for at least the last 15 years or so, due to the fact it is decidedly different from true scale 28mm models.
But they are wrong..... Bah hate when people use a word or term they do not actually understand. Like irony... Drives me nuts. Guess starting today I will spread the truth and distroy the ignorant.
That... dwarf... is... on... FIRE!! *read in Alicia Keyes song voice*
Slayers were my favorite aspect of fantasy dwarves and the only full unit I ever bought (including the blood bowl deathroller and the warhammer quest plastic guy). The gold standard in plastic so far for me IIRC are the Avatars of War iirc not-slayers (not sure if they're still around) so hopefully they'll beat that without jumping the shark with an over the top flying through the air held up by a part of his beard attached to random terrain on the base overly busy rivets everywhere pose.
If anyone is interested in that, don't buy direct from the company as they were in the past very bad with releases and stock levels. Order instead from an instock webstore local to you.
Good thing that words don't have static meaning and words being used as terms with their own definitions is a thing. Note the number of words in the dictionary that have only one definition.
Vermis wrote: Looks like you're confusing heroic proportions in art with 'heroic scale' in gaming miniatures. The latter is most definitely chunky, oversized features.
No it is the same scale used in sculpting trust me three years of school taught me that.
In tabletop gaming, "Heroic" scale has been used to describe exaggerated features, such as head and hands for as long as I can remember..
GWs scale in particular has always been described as 28mm "Heroic", for at least the last 15 years or so, due to the fact it is decidedly different from true scale 28mm models.
But they are wrong..... Bah hate when people use a word or term they do not actually understand. Like irony... Drives me nuts. Guess starting today I will spread the truth and distroy the ignorant.
I don't think you can really call a word that's been used for something for 15 years wrong... It just has another meaning now. Heroic scale for models is different to heroic proportions for art/sculpture.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
NinthMusketeer wrote: Good thing that words don't have static meaning and words being used as terms with their own definitions is a thing. Note the number of words in the dictionary that have only one definition.
Vermis wrote: Looks like you're confusing heroic proportions in art with 'heroic scale' in gaming miniatures. The latter is most definitely chunky, oversized features.
No it is the same scale used in sculpting trust me three years of school taught me that.
In tabletop gaming, "Heroic" scale has been used to describe exaggerated features, such as head and hands for as long as I can remember..
GWs scale in particular has always been described as 28mm "Heroic", for at least the last 15 years or so, due to the fact it is decidedly different from true scale 28mm models.
But they are wrong..... Bah hate when people use a word or term they do not actually understand. Like irony... Drives me nuts. Guess starting today I will spread the truth and distroy the ignorant.
They are not wrong, they are using the correct terminology for the subject at hand - specifically the subject of tabletop miniatures/gaming. It's like when we discuss the merits of Resin vs Plastic - a chemist would laugh, as resin models are plastic, but in the realm of tabletop gaming, people know what we are discussing.
This, however, is probably not on topic at all, and is a discussion that should be taken elsewhere if it were to continue.
On topic, the vanguard knights have some excellent detail, but the overall effect when looking at them in the battlefield photos is so busy it's hard to make them out properly. It's like dazzle camouflage, there are so many bits it makes it hard to really get a sense of what they're doing and their pose. Perhaps a different paint job would bring them out better. The Fyreslayers seem fairly nice, but again just so busy.... it will be interested to see them when they are actually up and painted.
Guys feel free to start a thread in Dakka Discussions about the proper use of terms like heroic scale and heroic proportions (interesting topic!) but it's off-topic in this thread and I am going to delete any further posts on the matter.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Maddermax wrote: the overall effect when looking at them in the battlefield photos is so busy it's hard to make them out properly
I think you are correct to cite the paintjob. The current studio style is hard-edge highlighting to white, I guess to emphasize the details of the model in close up photography. I consciously paint my own stuff in a softer, naturalistic way and it looks pretty different.
ImAGeek wrote: I'm not sure the Mohawk even is fire. Just looks like a Mohawk to me. The helmet bit and hair look exactly like the bottom dwarves in the art shown in the first post, and theirs is just hair.
I dont think but it looks like he always holds that little hammer thing and either the big long pole or the giant axe. No two handed or anything just little hammer plus. So I guess lord or hero choice? Hell is that even a thing still or just hero? Wait nvm he holds the pole and the giant axe lol balance issues much.
After watching that video, I really love these models. Better paint jobs will do wonders I think, because the sculpts are so good. I just hope I'm right that there's no skull acne...
Sounds like the Everchosen faction is mostly about Archaon/Varanguard/Gaunt Summoners, but it gives you transfer sheets for regular Chaos models and ideas for assembling war bands with them.
Seems like it's not quite a mortal Chaos battle tome, but it sounds like a pretty cool faction on its own. I am quite liking this direction of lots of mini-factions.
I have the same problem with these that i do with so many of the AOS stuff (and recent GW plastics, in general)- they're simultaneously too busy and too vanilla, oddly enough.
I think I kind of get what you mean. My first impression was, loads of cool detail but the overall effect is kind of blah. Maybe they will grow on me over time but I am not in a rush to get these or the Everchosen book just yet.
I wouldn't mind having one of the knights, but that would be enough. The not-dwarf-slayer on the other hand looks pretty neat. How strange is it that GW is now producing "not -X" versions of its own stuff?
kestral wrote: How strange is it that GW is now producing "not -X" versions of its own stuff?
That's them going for the protectable IP thing (in some way?). I don't know why they are doing this (it feels like they came to a strange conclusion after the Chapterhouse lawsuit) but most of their recent releases look too toylike with too many details (especially when it seems that toys have weaker protection). They lost most subtle elements and while I don't want to buy any of these (or their new aesthetic) I am curious what they will release for other armies (especially dwarves, humans, elves and orcs who they could assume look too generic).
angelofvengeance wrote: I wonder if the person who leaked the Fireslayer has gotten fired yet? Awfully risky pic to distribute when your job is at stake no?...
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm a fan of heroic scale models, but does anyone else find that axe to be ludicrously oversized?
[edit] To specify, the one on the sprue.
I dont think dwarfs where ever heroic scale, hell i do not even think GW ever did anything heroic scale maybe the primarchs? Most have big heads and hands lol.
The big heads and hands are exactly what people are talking about by 'heroic scale'... GW's models have always been somewhat chibbied to make them look bulkier and more impressive on the table.
Meanwhile, those Knights are a bit special. Say what you want about the game itself, the model releases have for the most part been superb so far.
Strongly disagree. Special needs maybe. Even putting aside my distaste for GW's handling of Fantasy and my total lack of interest in Warhammer notPlanescape: The Ripoffening(rated PG)'s "background", the models are now so OTT they border on self-parody. Back in Ye Olden Tymes the 'Eavy Metal guys had to really effing try to blind you with the stark, monstrously-saturated painting style of the day, now GW merely have to paint the model normally and it is an assault on the eyeballs.
Just packing more and more detail on to the figures doesn't make them good if there's no coherent aesthetic; just because you can fit an extra few horns and spikes on a dude doesn't mean you should.
It's chaos man. If there's anywhere where no coherent aesthetic works, it's chaos. Fair enough if you don't like them but that doesn't mean they're bad models. I really like them, they look exactly what I imagine a chaos knight would look like after decades/centuries of service; mental.
ImAGeek wrote: It's chaos man. If there's anywhere where no coherent aesthetic works, it's chaos. Fair enough if you don't like them but that doesn't mean they're bad models. I really like them, they look exactly what I imagine a chaos knight would look like after decades/centuries of service; mental.
the mutations, the barding, the poses, the weapons, the size...
i quite like them, too, and there are a ton of cool bits on those sprues...
a lot of the old Chaos minis can be spruced up nicely with the leftovers from this kit...
i have to disagree with you guys, i think the knights are absolutely brilliant. the only thing that stops me from converting them up for a mass of CSM bikes is their absurd cost. i will pick up at least one kit for CSM lord conversions though.
the archaon model is crazed, but i can't decide if it's crazed in a good or a bad way. it is stupidly huge though.
From what I can make out of the sorcerer, it looks incredibly dull.
The head artwork looks really nice, but it looks like nothing going on for the model.
Well, at least its not covered in ugly flame bits.
Pretty exited to see some tzeench stuff.
Despite how much I have disliked from AoS so far I do actually really like that model. It feels properly chaosy and isn't in a weird pose. If it isn't super expensive I might pick one up.
The artwork of that eye-guy looks very cool but I don't feel the model gives the same impression.
The sidevanes don't look to be part of he heads as much as they look tacked on, angular and non-organic. Similar to the ears Khorne berserkers put on their helmets.
Otherwise it's a pretty neat model. I like that it's kinda slender.
Zywus wrote: The artwork of that eye-guy looks very cool but I don't feel the model gives the same impression.
The sidevanes don't look to be part of he heads as much as they look tacked on, angular and non-organic. Similar to the ears Khorne berserkers put on their helmets.
Otherwise it's a pretty neat model. I like that it's kinda slender.
That's what I thought. I'd prefer it to be closer to the artwork.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Unfortunately, angular and non-organic are words that could be used to describe many of GW's current plastic figures.
It's much easier to create organic shapes with traditional sculpting methods, which unfortunately GW doesn't use with its plastic design.
I feel like GW has spent way too long sculpting armour in CAD and are now really messing up flesh on WHFB models. A lot of the big monster kits recently I have found really underwhelming for that exact reason.
The sorcerer looks like he will be really fun to paint up. Gosh, just when I thought I was going to be able to pass over this whole Everchosen thing ...
NinthMusketeer wrote: I'm a fan of heroic scale models, but does anyone else find that axe to be ludicrously oversized?
[edit] To specify, the one on the sprue.
The axe is the best part.
Seriously, aren't GW dwarfs supposed to have chimp-like strength and superhuman stamina? Why wouldn't they carry huge feth-off axes?
The fire slayer looks amazing on the sprue. I wonder what he looks like assembled.
The Tzeentch guy looks pretty good, too, but not AOS prices good.
Undead_Love-Machine wrote: Unfortunately, angular and non-organic are words that could be used to describe many of GW's current plastic figures.
It's much easier to create organic shapes with traditional sculpting methods, which unfortunately GW doesn't use with its plastic design.
I feel like GW has spent way too long sculpting armour in CAD and are now really messing up flesh on WHFB models. A lot of the big monster kits recently I have found really underwhelming for that exact reason.
That sums up quite nicely the problem i have with a lot of their recent kits.
slamma wrote: wow… $100 USD for 3 of the varanguard……
Right?
I don't even know what to say to this. I mean, the models aren't bad, but the older Chaos Knights were absolutely stellar models as well...and came out at $25/5 not $100 for 3.
I don't even have words...I just...I don't know how on earth they think a product like that is going to move...especially a plastic kit.
Couldnt agree more. Tried pointing this out on our club site only to be shot down by the resident GW man who insists that A) These are the best miniatures in the world and B) the price is high because you don't need that many......right because that's exactly how things in this world are priced. You only need one kitchen sink so they are £1000000. I could start another system for £60 and have a good starter set.
But does it really matter that much that they are bigger?
I mean, to some extent we are prepared to pay more for bigger models because it doesn't feel like we need as many of them. But the important thing is really the quality of the sculpt, not the quantity of plastic used.
Hmm not sure im going to defend the 3 for 60 price but as devils advocate i will say everyone needs a sink even if its only one, no one needs these minis they are a niche product by a company that is over stretched. GWs prices do not surprise me one bit.
It'll be cool to see the Fyreslayer mini, just to see an infantry-sized model again. They probably want to squat the Bretonnians, not because they don't have copyrightable names, but because it'll be too hard to make a 7" tall questing knight riding on a four-legged walking castle covered in hundreds of fleur d'lys with skulls in the center of them.
The Varanguard Knights must be about the same size as the Demigryph Knights (they certainly go on the same bases). Yet they are almost double the price lol.
It'll be cool to see the Fyreslayer mini, just to see an infantry-sized model again. They probably want to squat the Bretonnians, not because they don't have copyrightable names, but because it'll be too hard to make a 7" tall questing knight riding on a four-legged walking castle covered in hundreds of fleur d'lys with skulls in the center of them.
...Unless that suggestion just saved Bretonnians!
Are you sure the dwarf is infantry sized? How do we know he wasn't eating his warp wheaties and has grown to previously unheard of proportions like chaos humans and submarines?
Edit:lol.... Autocorrect turned sigmarines to submarines. I'll leave it in as its funny.
Until another company comes out and starts producing fantasy miniatures that are readily accessible (there are a lot of good companies out there but you can't ever seem to get their product without having to wait months), these are to a lot of people the best looking fantasy miniatures on the market.
To a lot of people, appearance doesn't really matter, or matter little.
To other people, appearance is a big deal and those people are going to be the people that buy these models.
Once another company comes out that can rival the visuals for cheaper AND actually deliver the models in a timely manner, GW will start to lose the people who value appearance over anything else.
Until then - they will pay the price for these models.
Couldnt agree more. Tried pointing this out on our club site only to be shot down by the resident GW man who insists that A) These are the best miniatures in the world and B) the price is high because you don't need that many......right because that's exactly how things in this world are priced. You only need one kitchen sink so they are £1000000. I could start another system for £60 and have a good starter set.
Even with the 15 pounds off I can get. It is still ridiculous.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
auticus wrote: Until another company comes out and starts producing fantasy miniatures that are readily accessible (there are a lot of good companies out there but you can't ever seem to get their product without having to wait months), these are to a lot of people the best looking fantasy miniatures on the market.
To a lot of people, appearance doesn't really matter, or matter little.
To other people, appearance is a big deal and those people are going to be the people that buy these models.
Once another company comes out that can rival the visuals for cheaper AND actually deliver the models in a timely manner, GW will start to lose the people who value appearance over anything else.
Until then - they will pay the price for these models.
The only other contender is Mantic and they are no where near close to GW, warmachine is kinda okay but they do seem to be doing a similar thing with bigger is best.
auticus wrote: Until another company comes out and starts producing fantasy miniatures that are readily accessible (there are a lot of good companies out there but you can't ever seem to get their product without having to wait months), these are to a lot of people the best looking fantasy miniatures on the market.
To a lot of people, appearance doesn't really matter, or matter little.
To other people, appearance is a big deal and those people are going to be the people that buy these models.
Once another company comes out that can rival the visuals for cheaper AND actually deliver the models in a timely manner, GW will start to lose the people who value appearance over anything else.
Until then - they will pay the price for these models.
Thing is, people have not been paying the price for GWs models, that's why their sales are dropping.
auticus wrote: Until another company comes out and starts producing fantasy miniatures that are readily accessible (there are a lot of good companies out there but you can't ever seem to get their product without having to wait months), these are to a lot of people the best looking fantasy miniatures on the market.
To a lot of people, appearance doesn't really matter, or matter little.
To other people, appearance is a big deal and those people are going to be the people that buy these models.
Once another company comes out that can rival the visuals for cheaper AND actually deliver the models in a timely manner, GW will start to lose the people who value appearance over anything else.
Until then - they will pay the price for these models.
Thing is, people have not been paying the price for GWs models, that's why their sales are dropping.
Yeah, I think we're just more likely to see a dearth in the games being played. It's like GW's attempt to get rid of all bitz sales- it didn't just mean people started buying full kits, it meant people stopped buying things altogether.
Blood crusher thing is on a 90mm oval the new knight is on a 76mm
So even with the bases scaled against each other it is bigger than the juggernaut but i dont think its worth twice the price ..
The weird side effect of the new AoS pricing is it is making the old WHFB range look like a bargain even at full retail lol (£15 for 10 skeleton warriors! £28 for 3 River Trolls!?)
Bottle wrote: The weird side effect of the new AoS pricing is it is making the old WHFB range look like a bargain even at full retail lol (£15 for 10 skeleton warriors! £28 for 3 River Trolls!?)
Your right, both my bro in law and wife started 8th edition just as the end of times hit. They are trying to get their armies to 3k pts before it all fecks off. So far it has probably been cheaper for them than AoS (we just use regiment sizes that come out of the box no hoards).
Guillermo Del Torro may be designing GW minis after looking at the new Tzeentch sorcerer, first thing I thought of was hellboy 2 and Pans labrynth. Not a bad thing at all.
AegisGrimm wrote: I'm just hoping he's normal dwarf-sized, expensive as it may be despite that.
I'm sure it will be dwarf-sized compared to the other AoS ranges. We've already seen from the starter set that they're significantly bigger than WHFB minis, so I would expect any new Dwarfs to have a similar scale-creep happening.
Surely there's a limit to how big the new dwarf will be if they are to continue legitimately describing it as a dwarf?
Sure. The point is that AoS is a different (bigger) scale than WHFB was. So AoS Dwarfs, or Duiduerenedianerons(TM) or whatever they're calling them now, will be bigger than WHFB Dwarfs.
They're in similar-ish full plate, but there are very few design matches beyond both having big shoulder pads.
The shields are pretty similar and the greaves and vambraces aren't too far off from the Sigmarite ones. I am guessing these are corrupted Sigmarines or GW doesn't even try anymore
The shields are pretty similar and the greaves and vambraces aren't too far off from the Sigmarite ones. I am guessing these are corrupted Sigmarines or GW doesn't even try anymore
Greaves and vambraces are going to be similar on just about anything vaguely human-shaped, and the shields are 'similar' in that they're longer than they are wide.
Honestly, I think you're reading too much into it.
They look like a jazzed up knight, but at 6 times the price.
I don't really see what everyone is going on about them looking like the sigmarites. Granted they are armored, but in the same way as space marines and chaos space marines in 40k.
I really can't wait until something new comes out that isn't marines with swords.
If some fancy new elves come out that'd be great. I'd just need to find some square bases for them...
Turalon wrote: They look like a jazzed up knight, but at 6 times the price.
I don't really see what everyone is going on about them looking like the sigmarites. Granted they are armored, but in the same way as space marines and chaos space marines in 40k.
I really can't wait until something new comes out that isn't marines with swords.
If some fancy new elves come out that'd be great. I'd just need to find some square bases for them...
Let'S not get overboard. I think only one person said that they looked like sigmarine
Turalon wrote: They look like a jazzed up knight, but at 6 times the price.
I don't really see what everyone is going on about them looking like the sigmarites. Granted they are armored, but in the same way as space marines and chaos space marines in 40k.
I really can't wait until something new comes out that isn't marines with swords.
If some fancy new elves come out that'd be great. I'd just need to find some square bases for them...
Let'S not get overboard. I think only one person said that they looked like sigmarine
I was talking with someone at a FLGS and they were expressing those views. I didn't mean to say that everyone on Dakka was saying that.
Red Corsair wrote: Guillermo Del Torro may be designing GW minis after looking at the new Tzeentch sorcerer, first thing I thought of was hellboy 2 and Pans labrynth. Not a bad thing at all.
Thats a great source of inspiration for the design team.
Cant wait to see the elves now
From an in-universe standpoint, why did everyone change their names anyway?
They are completely different races/species. Thousands of years have passed since the Old World went boom, and they are supposed to be completely different... thingies
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also, after seeing the summoner model I am calling a cost of about 45€ for him.
Ashiraya wrote: So they are completely different species that just happen to be exactly the same, with names that are often just variations of the old name?
ಠ_ಠ
Well, when compared to the previous setting's species, yes.
They aren't new species, they are the same species but their names have changed. If you want an in-universe explanation it's pretty easy to imagine that languages have changed over thousands of years.
Mymearan wrote: They aren't new species, they are the same species but their names have changed. If you want an in-universe explanation it's pretty easy to imagine that languages have changed over thousands of years.
The pricing is kinda funny. I mean, you get 6 Bloodcrushers for the same price. I think that the real reason to pick the Knights over the Bloodcrushers is for painter's delight: to paint the three nicer models, instead of the six slightly smaller and not as detailed ones.
5 models would've been completely fine imo. Even if you consider them to be 3 Chaos Lords and thus priced thereafter, well, why would you want 3 Chaos Lords? If I did though, I might actually buy them.
Red Corsair wrote: Guillermo Del Torro may be designing GW minis after looking at the new Tzeentch sorcerer, first thing I thought of was hellboy 2 and Pans labrynth. Not a bad thing at all.
Thats a great source of inspiration for the design team.
Cant wait to see the elves now
I'm doing just that, and using them as Chaos Lords.
This was my thought. There one of them that I really like, and some of the weapons, but not for $100 for all three. I'd totally be down for a box-splitting...
Red Corsair wrote: Guillermo Del Torro may be designing GW minis after looking at the new Tzeentch sorcerer, first thing I thought of was hellboy 2 and Pans labrynth. Not a bad thing at all.
Thats a great source of inspiration for the design team.
Cant wait to see the elves now
So they'll look like members of Bros?
Well, 90's nostalgia would make sense, given the naming scheme is remind me of 90's Image Comics--FyreSlayer and BloodBound the massively muscled and be-pouched gun-toting antiheroes!
Zywus wrote:But does it really matter that much that they are bigger?
Yes.
Bigger and coated in more fiddly detail. That's all that matters.
To pot with proportion and structure.
auticus wrote:
To a lot of people, appearance doesn't really matter, or matter little.
To other people, appearance is a big deal and those people are going to be the people that buy these models.
To some people, appearance is a big deal, and that's why they won't buy these.
Especially at that price.
Like I've been arguing elewhere, it's not as simple as good, loyal, appreciative, generous GW fans with standards, vs. miserly, unpleasable haters who'll buy any old drek. (Unpleasables who'll buy anything, hm) The venn diagram's a bit more complicated than that.
E.g. I still think they look a bit over the top and wonky, but I might actually consider them if they were cheaper and I could take a knife and a skim of greenstuff to them. But at sixty quid per, it's far too much; especially for something I'd have to work hard at, to tone them down a bit.
Chopxsticks wrote:Do any of you actually pay the full retail price?
Not AoS minis, but I figure that even with a 25% discount from Triple Helix, I'll have to spend £60 to get 40 basic dark elf troops. That's just over thirteen times as many minis as one varanguard box from GW! And three-and-a-bit units for Dragon Rampant.
But still, if they were priced like some of the new historical plastic sets (and probably, arranged in the sprue like them) you could get that many minis in one box for £20, or a couple pounds more. Heck, at the more fantasy-tax price of a quid a mini, that some fantasy plastics and even restics manage to beat, I'd be saving a nice, fat, crisp, 1/3rd-of-the-cost £20 to put towards dark riders, or summink.
Ashiraya wrote:
From an in-universe standpoint, why did everyone change their names anyway?
Aneurisms.
Oh sorry, you said in-universe.
infinite_array wrote:
I actually just checked - you could get 3 Aventine Hellenistic elephants with towers and crews for each for a little less than these models.
Thanks for answering the question that just popped into my head.
Elemental wrote:
Well, 90's nostalgia would make sense, given the naming scheme is remind me of 90's Image Comics--FyreSlayer and BloodBound the massively muscled and be-pouched gun-toting antiheroes!
The new Varanguard and Sorcerer are really nice models. I may scoop them up along with Skarbrand and put it together with the Chaos stuff that comes with the starter box. Hmmm. Christmas is just around the corner!
Brometheus wrote: McNinja... thanks for that. I dont know how I didnt even consider it.
You're welcome! I've been looking for a cool death knight model for weeks but thankfully my players aren't close to fighting it yet so I have time. They'll also be fighting a lich at some point, and I'll be using Nagash for him
Just to note, GW has now produced a plastic kit more expensive than the cheapest FW greater daemon; Archaon is 100 pounds vs the Keeper of Secrets at 96. That's the first benchmark guys! Next up is the Great Unclean One at 115, who thinks GW will have a more expensive plastic kit for AoS by the end of 2016?
I think it's definitely possible. They seem to be finding success with big fancy models. I'd take their plastic kits over FW (or any other type of) resin every day.
Gaunt Summoner not so exciting to me, but interested to see his rules. Looks like old Tzeentch models, not very new feeling.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: For the life of me I can't understand why they don't dual purpose these AOS chaos models into 40k.
The Herald on disc already has rules in the Daemon codex. It's a herald on disc.
Except the Gaunt Summoner is most likely Mortal and wouldn't have much of a 40k equivalent. Closest would be a Sorcerer with Mark of Tzeentch, but this guy's missing power armor to fit the aesthetic.
AncientSkarbrand wrote: For the life of me I can't understand why they don't dual purpose these AOS chaos models into 40k.
The Herald on disc already has rules in the Daemon codex. It's a herald on disc.
Except the Gaunt Summoner is most likely Mortal and wouldn't have much of a 40k equivalent. Closest would be a Sorcerer with Mark of Tzeentch, but this guy's missing power armor to fit the aesthetic.
There's absolutely nothing stopping you using it as a Herald on a disc.
Turalon wrote: They look like a jazzed up knight, but at 6 times the price.
I don't really see what everyone is going on about them looking like the sigmarites. Granted they are armored, but in the same way as space marines and chaos space marines in 40k.
I really can't wait until something new comes out that isn't marines with swords.
If some fancy new elves come out that'd be great. I'd just need to find some square bases for them...
I know there isn't anything stopping me from doing that. I'm just saying they could include a new unit called "gaunt summoner" in 40k alongside the disc heralds and give him different rules. Then I need to buy him to differentiate him and his rules from the rest of my disc heralds.
I just don't see why they wouldn't, once the rules are written they hardly cost you anything and gives people who aren't interested in AOS a reason to buy these models and care about them.
The first thing I thought about the model was "disk herald proxy"
But a burning chariot kit is the same price and gets me more points. Then I simply wondered what the point is to keeping it exclusive. I can't see a reason not to make these dual game models, especially when chaos could kinda include anything new and it wouldn't run into fluff barriers. I hoped he was his own badass dude with his own 40k rules, like the bloodthirster variants that were released awhile back.
McNinja wrote: Those chaos varanguard knights are absolutely fething perfect for a death knight in a D&D campaign I'm running. fething GW and their cool models.
Except for the fact that I believe it would probably look absurdly oversized besides most\all minis regularly used for D&D, I suspect.
Unless you're talking about an ogre death knight or something, of course.
but I think a lot of people don't realise how big they are compared to the 'old' mounted chaos minis
This a 1000 times. They are much bigger and better looking.
Bigger than Bloodcrushers/Dragon Ogres? Big enough that they use enough plastic to make 15 Chaos Knights?
Pull the other one, it has got bells on.
I agree with you that the Varanguard are over priced, they're certainly well beyond my price range. However, when comparing them to other recent kits I can see how GW rationalized the pricing. The Varanguard look to be pretty big, almost Mortarch in size. Considering the Mortarch kit is $79 for 1 having the Varanguard be $100 for 3 isn't outrageous in that specific comparison. I don't GW cares what other companies' kits are priced at which greatly contributes to the sticker shock since we, as consumers. do care about the pricing of other kits and use them for comparison.
Yeah, that's my take - although it does explain the price point a bit. Will be interesting to see an actual model of it next to a normal juggernaut or cavalry model, but the photoshopping makes them seem absolutely massive.
I'm starting to wonder if AoS is not actually able to be called 28mm anymore. I know the number has been a misnomer for some time, but perhaps they really are aiming at something like 32mm (can't be 35mm right?) with the range?
Aren't the Blood Reavers comparable to old stuff? Those are the only dudes released so far that can really be compared to anything size-wise. The rest are either mutated or super humans.
Ah, so perhaps the human models will still match up with older WHFB lines and just be towered over by the marines? That would be great if so! I was worried all the models had gotten larger... (even though I'm not playing the game, I am definitely up for stealing sweet models for other purposes )
I'm not actually sure about that, but I remember reading that the Blood Reavers are comparable to old Chaos dudes. Couldn't find any good pics. The Blood Warriors (and other elite Chaos units) and Stormcast are supposed to be way bigger than normal humans. Archaon is even bigger, as are these knights. I wonder how big the Gaunt Summoner is?
Automatically Appended Next Post: In this pic you can see that the Stormcast and Blood Warrior on the right are bigger than the Marine and Blood Reaver on the left. IIRC Marines are about the same height as normal humans, right? That would make the Blood Reaver similarly tall but beefier than a normal human.
RiTides wrote: I'm starting to wonder if AoS is not actually able to be called 28mm anymore. I know the number has been a misnomer for some time, but perhaps they really are aiming at something like 32mm (can't be 35mm right?) with the range?
Nothing made by Citadel has been 28mm in a long time other than Lord of the Rings/Hobbit, which are 28mm truescale. Probably the last plastic kits of the late 1990's - 5/6th edition soldiers of the Empire, for example, 28mm to the eye. They have moved to at least 35mm scale "to the eye" in the last decade, with Age of Sigmar being even larger.
Spoiler:
Automatically Appended Next Post:
RiTides wrote: Ah, so perhaps the human models will still match up with older WHFB lines and just be towered over by the marines?
Actually, marines are pretty short compared to pretty much every other product line in both 40k and AoS.
Mymearan wrote: Aren't the Blood Reavers comparable to old stuff?
Yes, just looking at one standing next to a Guardsman on my desk and they have the same stature and similar proportions (if anything the newer model is a bit more naturalistic; maybe just less "hunchy").
The more open poses of the Blood Reaver and Warriors make them seem a lot bigger when they're only slightly bigger. The Warriors also have tall helmets.
RoninXiC wrote: They are still warriors of Chaos are they not?
Just because youre Elite doesnt make you grow
GW clearly follows after the Orkish idea of bigger is better, you see it through all their product lines. Bigger suits for Tau, bigger marines (centurions), bigger walkers (Morkanaut/Gorkanaut), so bigger chaos warriors fits the norm.
Because how else are GW going to convince you to drop the exorbitant amount that they cost on them?
It's amazing how AoS is absolutely destroying any and all desire I have to ever play a GW game again. They learned nothing from why people weren't playing 8th edition. It's too expensive.
Or maybe it's just because it is easier to cram more details onto a larger model and a larger model has more presence on the table. So they can charge more.
GW scale creep has been a thing for quite a while.
RoninXiC wrote: They are still warriors of Chaos are they not?
Just because youre Elite doesnt make you grow
It does when the Chaos gods imbue you with massive amounts of power.
In that case why don't the Chaos gods make them triple or quadruple the size of all the enemy troops around them. That way they would be certain to always win in the name of the dark powers!
Because how else are GW going to convince you to drop the exorbitant amount that they cost on them?
It's amazing how AoS is absolutely destroying any and all desire I have to ever play a GW game again. They learned nothing from why people weren't playing 8th edition. It's too expensive.
Yeah pretty much, the scale creep is directly related to the aggressive pricing strategy. Hard to justify charging those prices for the current Chaos Knight kits so along come new shiny bigger versions. You've hit the nail on the head there about 8th. Holding out for the new Dwarf stuff to at least be the same scale as the older ones. New huge dwarven machines and constructs being a larger scale would be acceptable...not so much the stunties themselves
What scale are all the dwarf fans asking for? The scale that the warriors, rangers and miners come in, or the much smaller--so small they are incompatible with earlier plastics--heroes, longbeards, ironbreakers, firebelcherwhatevers and the other dwarfs in armor? Because I would like to know which of those two vastly different scales the fireslayer needs to be in order for you other dwarf fans to be happy.
Spoiler:
It will be a new, even more incompatible scale.
I'm just hoping he'll be able to pass as either a dwarf or some kind of ancestor god without too much squinting.
RoninXiC wrote: They are still warriors of Chaos are they not?
Just because youre Elite doesnt make you grow
Yeah, that's the problem most chaos dwarf fans have with the bull centaurs - they were originally supposed to be halfbreeds I believe, so the "dwarf" part shouldn't be that much larger than a dwarf! I'm using some excellent Bloodbowl third party bull centaurs for mine
RoninXiC wrote: Why are they so big? It doesnt make any sense.
They're big because: a) Champions of Chaos= more power and more "gifts" (let's be honest, having your armour grow on to your body or your arm replaced with a tentacle doesn't sound fun lol) b) Their steeds are also daemonic so more Chaos love for them. and c) They work for Archaon, and thus get the best weapons and armour available. Did I mention they're ded 'ard too?
Guys, I hate to sound negative but isn't the scale creep fething obvious yet?
If they release everything and it is slightly larger, eventually you will have to buy new models rather then play with your WFB left overs. At least that's my bet on what their reasoning is. They can't foresee people simply opting out due to sticker shock.
EDIT:
Just wait and see how massive the new Duardin(?) will be and then it should sink in.
I don't think these new knights (yes, I know, it's actually a different unit, doesn't matter ) are so big. It's mainly the mount that is roughly "Archaon's former Dorghar" size. About the rider, yeah, he may be a bit bigger with more impressive weapons/shields, but not so much.
It's a unit of "Old Archaon alike", to me. Doesn't justify such a price, of course, but about coherency...it's not such a gap, IMHO.
Red Corsair wrote: Guys, I hate to sound negative but isn't the scale creep fething obvious yet?
If they release everything and it is slightly larger, eventually you will have to buy new models rather then play with your WFB left overs. At least that's my bet on what their reasoning is. They can't foresee people simply opting out due to sticker shock.
EDIT:
Just wait and see how massive the new Duardin(?) will be and then it should sink in.
Not true, you could use your old Empire army as dwarves on a diet!
But yeah everything seems to be on 32mm bases now and I'd have expected the shirtless guys in the starter set to be the new marauder equivalents and they are definitely bigger.
As to the size of the varangaurd the short stories have them as being chaos lords, so each one is a lord who has fought everthing going to be promoted to achons bodygaurd and the lord models were always larger than normal anyway. So there now a unit of chaos lords+ and hence bigger.
What is it? A totally free narrative campaign day for Warhammer Age of Sigmar.
Our scriveners have been busy writing away in their underground lair, and as a result, we’re happy to announce that the custom battleplans for the Warhammer Age of Sigmar Free Campaign Day, “The Trials of the Oighear” are now ready for you to download and check out.
Simply click the link above to download the fully updated events pack, including the details for the day, the three new battleplans, an exclusive new Warscroll for Ice Mages and ideas for modelling your own Ice Mage. The day promises to be a lot of fun; you won’t want to miss out. Spaces are limited, so secure yours by ringing 0115 9004994 or emailing whworldevents@gwplc.com as soon as you can.
Kilkrazy wrote: They actually aren't much larger than the models they replace.
They haven't replaced any models.
They will.
What's your reasoning behind that? The Varanguard in the fluff are protagonists in a short story compilation, mighty Lords of Chaos that have been called individually by Archaon... sort of like Nagash's Mortarchs. why would they replace Chaos Knights?
Kilkrazy wrote: My reasoning is that GW periodically upgrade kits with a new, more expensive version and retire the older version.
For example, most of the Tau infantry (Fire Warriors, Pathfinders, Stealth Suits and Broadside suits) have been upgraded and replaced over the years.
Varanguard are their own unit, not just new chaos Knights. Plus both are up on the webstore now, if they were replacing Knights, they'd be gone by now.
Then these new kits are only slightly larger than the very similar Chaos Knights they don't replace, that have a different set of rules and are much cheaper.
Chaos Knights are part of the new Tzeentch web bundle, as well. I doubt the Chaos Knights get a new model anytime soon, but Varanguard are clearly not a replacement in the literal sense for them right now.
Going to be there myself, if any other Dakkanauts will be present!
Gave up on that idea, too many tasks to get out of at short notice this close to xmas. Was looking at the February event, but that is doubles and a full weekend.
I'd like to as well, but the short notice would make it tough! As an aside, I wonder how many unpainted/unfinished armies get played at WMW? I think the main reason I'd go, however, is to try to get a better sense of what GW is trying to do because in the giant game of telephone we play here on the internet, the message often gets completely garbled. It would be really cool to see how all this stuff looks and works in its "natural habitat" so to speak.
Manchu wrote: As an aside, I wonder how many unpainted/unfinished armies get played at WMW?.
In these events, none - it is a requirement to bring painted armies.
Then I definitely would not be attending! I'd need a couple months advance notice at least to get my stuff in order.
Actually, it is not a requirement for this event;
Your models do not need to be fully painted for this event, but there will be some
Campaign bonuses available for those players who manage to fully paint and base
their force.
So, bonus if you manage to get all painted but you will not be out because you didn't succeed to paint everything in time. I say, if you can go here but are not sure you will have all the colors on your miniatures in time, you can still go. It's a good opportunity to play a narrative event with like-minded people. And I don't believe they would be mocking you for not having enough time.
Well, maybe just a few jokes about how this white schema is well done for the ice theme.
I like the varanguard but the are bloody expensive Just like the New archaon model, it is a very good model but bit expensive, I wonder when the brink something else instead of chaos or sigmar thingies,
It's just an old artwork they used for their winter/ice themed campaign.
Kislev is long dead and buried. The Tsarin as well. You can also see in the painted miniatures at the end of the PDF that she's not even here as "show off". So, don't get your hopes too high up.
But it would be totally cool if a player came with the actual miniature for Katarina and her Kislev old guard.
reds8n wrote: Kislev the next generation t'would seem.
Nope. What Sarouan said.
The Oighear (wasn't he on the X-Factor a while back?) aren't Kislev. They're shapeshifters apparently, so they can be anything, and thus they're not anything. They have no culture, no defining traits, other than they have a big fight over a blank snowy wasteland once every thousand years. I assume that in the meantime, they're occupied by having smaller fights over a blank snowy wasteland.
Are you beckoned into the epic, meaningful adventures yet?
It's just an old artwork they used for their winter/ice themed campaign.
Kislev is long dead and buried. The Tsarin as well. You can also see in the painted miniatures at the end of the PDF that she's not even here as "show off". So, don't get your hopes too high up.
Vermis wrote: The Oighear (wasn't he on the X-Factor a while back?) aren't Kislev. They're shapeshifters apparently, so they can be anything, and thus they're not anything. They have no culture, no defining traits, other than they have a big fight over a blank snowy wasteland once every thousand years. I assume that in the meantime, they're occupied by having smaller fights over a blank snowy wasteland.
Are you beckoned into the epic, meaningful adventures yet?
The only interesting thing to come out of AoS is a lie?
McNinja wrote: Those chaos varanguard knights are absolutely fething perfect for a death knight in a D&D campaign I'm running. fething GW and their cool models.
Except for the fact that I believe it would probably look absurdly oversized besides most\all minis regularly used for D&D, I suspect.
Unless you're talking about an ogre death knight or something, of course.
They may be large for a normal death knight, but I'd rather have a large awesome model to represent an epic battle than a small gakky model from 2001, which is what every other death knight model looks like.
GraywarTS wrote: 100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.
I have to say no to that purchase.
In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.
And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...
Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?
GraywarTS wrote: 100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.
I have to say no to that purchase.
In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.
And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...
Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?
I'd be more inclined to concentrate on the first part of his quote and realise that you could get 15 Knights for the equivalent of 3 of those guys and have a dollar to spare?!
For 100 dollars I think the Mighty Skullcrusher box is better value and a better comparison of like for like at that price range...get 6 Khorne knights on skullcrushers
GraywarTS wrote: 100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.
I have to say no to that purchase.
In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.
And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...
Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?
But the larger size of the Varanguard doesn't give them any in game advantage does it? Aside from personal aesthetic preferences, there's nothing that would make buying Chaos Knights and proxying them as Varanguard a disadvantage in playing because the Knights are smaller. The Varanguard definitely have better rules but their larger size, by itself, doesn't really matter.
GraywarTS wrote: 100$ for 3 knights that look chaotic.
or
33$ for 5 Knights that look chaotic.
I have to say no to that purchase.
In my opinion any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff the old knights and make a completely unique to them knight.
And use several pounds of greenstuff in the process to literally quintuple their mass/volume...
Guffaw, I can do you one better, $5 for 5 Knights in 10mm scale that look chaotic, maybe? I mean, if any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 28mm knight into the larger-than-bloodcrushers varanguard, then any one with a mere shred of talent can easily convert or greenstuff a 10mm knight and make a completely unique to them 28mm knight, right?
But the larger size of the Varanguard doesn't give them any in game advantage does it? Aside from personal aesthetic preferences, there's nothing that would make buying Chaos Knights and proxying them as Varanguard a disadvantage in playing because the Knights are smaller. The Varanguard definitely have better rules but their larger size, by itself, doesn't really matter.
Actually, yeah. They would be at a disadvantage in a way.
You measure from the model itself rather than the base in Age of Sigmar. The larger size of the Varanguard is both a good and bad thing, as they can get attacks in on more things but can be hit back by more things as well.
Seems like a Bloodcrusher rearing up on it's hind legs is exactly the same size as a Varanguard.
By some people's size-related logic, it seems like a box of Bloodcrushers should somehow be much more than a 100 dollars, then? $150....$200? Obviously not.
AegisGrimm wrote: Seems like a Bloodcrusher rearing up on it's hind legs is exactly the same size as a Varanguard.
By some people's size-related logic, it seems like a box of Bloodcrushers should somehow be much more than a 100 dollars, then? $150....$200? Obviously not.
That was the logic I raised in my post above but it's incorrect to say that the point being made was that the existing Bloodcrushers kit should be increased in price. As they are the same size, and being priced at the same amount, the newer Varanguard kit should either have more models in it or be at a cheaper price point.
Kilkrazy wrote: That is not the secret of how to increase profits while sales are falling.
I get you on trying to increase profits but surely they would increase the number of sales if people didn't think think they were too expensive and not value for money in comparison to other similar kits?!
The more I look at them the more certain aspects of them grow on me. I think the poses of the horses and design of the torsos are excellent but I'm not sold on the heads. Would prefer a more orthodox armoured horse's head instead but I suppose a bit of creative thinking could provide conversion alternatives.
Some of us choke at a three piece model kit costing more than complete army for some other games, but reading the positive comments by users about the style and rules of these Varanguard, clearly there are plenty of people who are not put off by the price.
So, it's not impossible for sales revenue to go up. GW just need enough super fans. But if not, a company can do well on less turnover and more profit, especially with most of the shares in the hands of management.
The crunch comes if the network effect goes into reverse, and people are put off buying because it becomes too hard to find people to play with.
However, if GW are selling to people whose main enjoyment is buying the models and playing an occasional casual game with a couple of friends, then this won't happen.
AegisGrimm wrote: Seems like a Bloodcrusher rearing up on it's hind legs is exactly the same size as a Varanguard.
By some people's size-related logic, it seems like a box of Bloodcrushers should somehow be much more than a 100 dollars, then? $150....$200? Obviously not.
That was the logic I raised in my post above but it's incorrect to say that the point being made was that the existing Bloodcrushers kit should be increased in price. As they are the same size, and being priced at the same amount, the newer Varanguard kit should either have more models in it or be at a cheaper price point.
I meant by my post that as wrong as my hypothetical Bloodcrusher situation would seem if it were true, the Varanguard situation too should obviously seem, as they are so closely comparable.
To be honest, AoS feels more "Age of Collector Miniatures at Premium Prices" for the new ones. I believe they understand their game is more fun at a Skirmish scale. Thus, the price is "less painfull" if you intend to take one box (or maybe two) and have fun with that for a long time.
But let's be honest, you don't make a true army out of those models. Since WFB is dead, not a big deal afterall.
Still, 100$ is high for three glorified chaos knight with essentially the mount being more chaotic. But then, after Archaon...yeah, it's quite a Premium army we have there. The Everchosen aren't for anyone, after all - only the True Fans (with enough money in their wallet) are allowed to play them.
Whatever, let everyone take their favorite miniatures at the price they're thinking they're worth. And if GW manage to survive like this, fine. If not, well, nevermind - it's not like we don't have any other choice, nowadays.
What is funny is that I still remember how some people weren't happy with the price asked for the Mounted Vampires unit when WFB was still around; about the price of Skullcrushers for 5 knights. It was very expensive at the time, and the result...well, they didn't sell that well. Many players just used another kit to make conversions. So, for those Chaos ones...yeah, I can see people using the less expensive knights with a few more mutations for the horses and then call it a Varanguard Knight. After all, the rules can be found elsewhere.
^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.
With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.
I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...
Bottle wrote: ^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.
With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.
I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...
Well my wife has started a Wood Elf army and will be doing dark elfs next year, my bro in law is starting dwarfs and I will be starting an Orc force. However all these will be for 8th edition so will be buying just as much as we used to.
Sarouan wrote:Whatever, let everyone take their favorite miniatures at the price they're thinking they're worth. And if GW manage to survive like this, fine. If not, well, nevermind - it's not like we don't have any other choice, nowadays.
Well, for halfway quality 28mm fantasy minis intended (if not very well priced) for mass battles, not completely stuck in an early '90's or modern exxxtreme aesthetic, the pool might shrink a bit.
Bottle wrote:
With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes.
Yeah - compared to AoS. That said...
I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...
I've mentioned a few times, I'm doing this myself, but not for AoS. The price of WHFB minis is more bearable if you only need a half-dozen units of 6-12 each, for Lion/Dragon Rampant. And don't need special rules stacked hip-high. That doesn't mean discounters and ebay don't factor large in my purchases, though.
I can't even imagine buying these varanguard for any size force, even at a 25% discount. It's not a 'boohoohoo I want these so bad' thing, and I don't care how big they are, or if they're cheaper than a few thousand MtG boosters or a Ferrari. The price point just sends them straight into my 'non-purchase' pile, before I take a closer look at their appearance*, customisability, or role in AoS or any game.
Heck, I'm even considering buying a small handful of stormcast, but wouldn't touch a box of varanguard.
*Wonky poses - one looks like a lolloping labrador - not fully broken up and diguised by waaay too many fiddly bits and jags and spikes desperately trying to convince the viewer that they're big and hard, no really we are, our Mom said we were cool. Which keeps them firmly in the non-purchase pile.
Bottle wrote: ^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.
With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.
I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...
What is skirmish level for you?
How many models? How many pts (e.g. wounds)?
Bottle wrote: ^ Yes I agree, AoS is vastly more fun at Skirmish levels - which is why the models are now much larger and sold at much higher prices - but combined with GW's policy of only raising the price for new kits, I can't help but think they are shooting themselves in the foot in some respects.
With AoS, the old WHFB factions now seem incredibly good value to my eyes. Since AoS has begun I have not bought one AoS model but instead I have expanded my single WHFB army into 5 legacy armies (Empire, Dwarves, Vampire Counts, Night Goblins and Skaven). Under the old rules for WHFB most of these armies would have been far to small to play with (most are 30-40 models), but under AoS these are perfectly sized armies.
I wonder how many people were ready to buy a new army for WHFB and have instead now bought one 1/3 of the size because the needed models are so much less - and I wonder how many people wanting to get into AoS have adopted one of the legacy armies because in comparison they are much cheaper than the new armies...
What is skirmish level for you?
How many models? How many pts (e.g. wounds)?
I like playing with the School League Rules, which is 30 models. Usually around 50 wounds. That's a nice Skirmish level for AoS in my opinion.
Sarouan wrote: To be honest, AoS feels more "Age of Collector Miniatures at Premium Prices" for the new ones. I believe they understand their game is more fun at a Skirmish scale. Thus, the price is "less painfull" if you intend to take one box (or maybe two) and have fun with that for a long time.
This is pretty much the case for all GW miniatures, I think Not that Privateer and Wyrd are far behind. Incidentally, I think the price of the Summoner is not terrible, and it's a pretty cool model. I really like the Varaguard, too, after having seen the actual sprues. But I'm not a Chaos guy, so all these models are not coming home to my shelf.
By the way, I think it's also the Age of Steroids... bigger is better!
Sarouan wrote: But let's be honest, you don't make a true army out of those models. Since WFB is dead, not a big deal afterall.
You do see some people modelling "complete" armies, like a Stormcast.. uh... what is it called now, the thing that's like a chapter? I think they're relatively few though, compared to 40k. But let's be honest, people who are 40k completionists are also not doing so for gaming reasons, as there is very little gaming purpose for at least half the models. Not only are some of them terrible or serve almost no useful purpose (or impossible to transport), but there is no plausible way to play 15k-20k (or more...) points of models, or even half of them... or even a quarter....
If you look at the Army of the Month in Visions this month, for example, it is freaking huge, with a warlord titan, several of the big FW titans, many IK's, and then boatloads of everything else from plastic marines to FW tanks. 8 years to build, I think the fella said. Which actually seems pretty quick to me, looking at the massive size of the army.
I personally like the new archaon's chaos knight models. They have a ton of character, are very well sculpted, and look to be a blast to paint. I am also a fan of the new archaon model itself (although the old model is the best model GW has made for all it's ranges).
In reality the only thing I am not a fan of are the new mortal models for the khorne range.
My AOS armies are very small (40-60 wounds max, 1 monster max, 1-3 heros). With the demise of WHFB, gobs of troops and elite troops are cheap. This makes purchases like this set not as painful as I only plan to pick up one set ever.
And if you use ebay, you can find them for $80 or less
Iechine wrote: Its a cool model for sure, but is that really the best freehand they could throw out there for his tomb that he's reading?
Probably not, but then if you put out an absolutely god-like Golden Daemon paint job, that can be a little daunting for folks and might put people off from buying it? Just my two pennorth
H.B.M.C. wrote: When I said that the new Tzeentch guy would be AUD$80 I was using hyperbole. I didn't think he'd actually cost that much.
He doesn't. He costs AUD$70.
I mean WTF???
He's 2 sprues in a clam pack, of course he is more expensive. Just like Skarr Bloodwrath, remember him, the first 2 sprue plastic character we saw which was the justification of him costing $50 when the other plastic character were in the twenties a year ago...
jonolikespie wrote: He's 2 sprues in a clam pack, of course he is more expensive. Just like Skarr Bloodwrath, remember him, the first 2 sprue plastic character we saw which was the justification of him costing $50 when the other plastic character were in the twenties a year ago...
Sorry, are you attempting to justify its $70 price cost by comparing it to something similar that costs twenty dollars less?
...
...
...Unless that suggestion just saved Bretonnians!
That said...
