Fully half of our codex lists can be said to have units based on balistic skill shooting. Without a doubt the most prevalent "chapter tactics" in my local area are the -1 to hit farther than 12 inches away. Ravenguard, alpha legion, stygies admech, tyranids with those character bugs that give an aoe -1 to hit, and now eldar craftworld, and likely in the future tau will have similar, mabye even tyranids. I understand melee is the orks real strength, but our shooting units should not be completely worthless this often. No idea what can be done about this.
I mean, you do have access to BS 4+, which is what a lot of armies make do with. If your meta has a lot of - to hit in it, focus on those. Admittedly most of them are a bit overpriced at this moment, but hopefully either chapter approved or the eventual codex will solve that. I've also heard good things about the forgeworld grot/mega grot/kill tanks, so that is a potential solution if you are interested.
A good start would be to give orks any other option than massing boyz. Its literally all orks have going for them atm. Nearly every unit in the codex needs a points reduction. Ork vehicles specifically need anywhere between 30-50% points reduction on nearly every entry. Ork shooting has always been pretty awful. In 8th its even worse with the loss of templates & modifiers you mentioned. Hopefully with the codex release GW comes to its senses & makes the changes that are necessary. I don't play orks, but I'd love to see them become a very competitive army.
I've always thought since 8th edition dropped that orks just need to have 90% of the units and wargear cut by half. Boyz are fine, but pretty much everything else should be way cheaper than now.
In 2nd edition there were hit modifiers too, but the standard ork boy hit on a 4+ so it wasn't that big of a deal. Now a -1 to hit costs you 50% of your expected damage, and a -2 to hit 100%. I don't see orks going back to bs4+ since them being bad shots has become so ingrained in the fluff (that would be quite the retcon).
I hope they gain a "always hits on x+" or maybe a +x to hit when stationary rule. Until that happens ork shooting is, unfortunately, completely useless.
Orock wrote: Fully half of our codex lists can be said to have units based on balistic skill shooting.
We don't have a codex yet, so we are in the unfortunate situation of having to use our index lists against the codex factions. This sucks, but it is no different for Tyranids, Sisters, Necron, Tau and others. They are all struggling with the codex armies.
Until our codex is out I advise you to do what every other Ork player is doing:
1) Bring moar boyz. Best unit in the index and one of the best troop choices in the game. 120 is a bare minimum
2) Bring a little bit of smite-spam. Weirdboyz are good, and smite counters most of the things that boyz struggle with.
3) Play Maelstrom or similar missions where VPs are won progressively throughout the game. End-scoring is boring and disadvantages Orks a LOT.
4) Always advance, focus on the assault, punch out some space marine teeth. Don't try to play shooty orks, unless you are okay with a 3% win-rate.
A good start would be to give orks any other option than massing boyz. Its literally all orks have going for them atm. Nearly every unit in the codex needs a points reduction. Ork vehicles specifically need anywhere between 30-50% points reduction on nearly every entry. Ork shooting has always been pretty awful. In 8th its even worse with the loss of templates & modifiers you mentioned. Hopefully with the codex release GW comes to its senses & makes the changes that are necessary. I don't play orks, but I'd love to see them become a very competitive army.
+
Blackie wrote:I've always thought since 8th edition dropped that orks just need to have 90% of the units and wargear cut by half. Boyz are fine, but pretty much everything else should be way cheaper than now.
Both of these. Ork units are BS5+, AND have worse guns across the board than other armies - but pay MORE points per gun. Orks are the horde army - they're supposed to be bad at shooting and vehicles (in terms of durability and proficiency), but make it up my just having MORE of everything; more vehicles, more shots, etc.
At the moment, Imperial weapons are cheaper, better, but more importantly; put out more shots - period (Looking at you BS2/3/4+ Heavy20 Punisher Cannon (and that's not even with the Grinding Advance rule)/12 shot Assault Cannons). I don't mind their guns/BS being better, but I do mind having less dice [this is the huge one for me [Orks are the "gak-tons of dice" army]] AND being more expensive on top of it.
shortymcnostrill wrote:In 2nd edition there were hit modifiers too, but the standard ork boy hit on a 4+ so it wasn't that big of a deal. Now a -1 to hit costs you 50% of your expected damage, and a -2 to hit 100%. I don't see orks going back to bs4+ since them being bad shots has become so ingrained in the fluff (that would be quite the retcon).
I hope they gain a "always hits on x+" or maybe a +x to hit when stationary rule. Until that happens ork shooting is, unfortunately, completely useless.
The thing is, Orks aren't particularly bad at shooting - most prefer the way of the Choppa; that, coupled with the fact that they care more about the sound/maximum dakka, and less about actually hitting the target, means they tend to not be represented as accurately. There are entire clans/lifestyles centered around the way of the dakka [hell, this name of this site is based around the word, and the term "Dakka" in general, was coined due to the massive quantities of Ork shooting].
That said, BS5+ is their identity at this point, and it's fair enough, plus differentiates them on the table; a rule I keep seeing pop-up as proposed is "Orks always hit on a 5+" - they don't care about what anyone's doing (evasive maneuvers, hiding, etc), and care more about outputting massive amounts of lead; they keep the generally bad shooting odds, but don't get completely screwed over by -1/-2 to hit modifiers.
Other armies are supposed to be envious of the amount of shots an Ork unit can put out; not the other way around.
fe40k wrote: Both of these. Ork units are BS5+, AND have worse guns across the board than other armies - but pay MORE points per gun. Orks are the horde army - they're supposed to be bad at shooting and vehicles (in terms of durability and proficiency), but make it up my just having MORE of everything; more vehicles, more shots, etc.
There's one problem with this though. GW keeps dropping point values, players keep upping game sizes and nobody bothers with upping board size.
End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!
I ran into this issue with trying to use orks in 30k. 30k armies works better with at least 2k, preferably more points. 7th ed orks...well weren't competive. Especially the kind we have. Top of that 30k armies have couple tools orks REALLY hate. In short equal points would be generally uphill. How to fix it? Point reduction or more points for orks and either 30k force needs to be like 1000-1500(not optimal) or we run into issue that it's basically shoulder to shoulder ork stuff with stuff off board as well...
End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!
That's the exactly the points in collecting orks. To have a huge amount of models and a love for the hobby part which is not only painting stuff but also customizations and conversions (which mitigate a bit their cost in terms of money), orks collections are never finished, there's always something to add. If you're not interested into that you've chosen the wrong faction.
The board is fine, a tipycal 1850 points ork list in 7th edition worths 2500 points now, but it hadn't any problems in fitting into the board. Just make it worth 2000 points instead.
A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.
End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!
That's the exactly the points in collecting orks. To have a huge amount of models and a love for the hobby part which is not only painting stuff but also customizations and conversions (which mitigate a bit their cost in terms of money), orks collections are never finished, there's always something to add. If you're not interested into that you've chosen the wrong faction.
The board is fine, a tipycal 1850 points ork list in 7th edition worths 2500 points now, but it hadn't any problems in fitting into the board. Just make it worth 2000 points instead.
But if model count increases by say 30% that's lots of models for new players to buy and paint. Sure old guys have no problems but what about new players...GW is more interested in selling new army for new players than few additions to old guys.
As for board...Well you fit it with 2500 pts. Whatabout what amounts to old 3250 pts? How much price drop we are looking orks need? 10%? 30%? 50%? People above mentioned 50%. Imagine fitting 3750 pts army into the board. That's a lot of models.
Then GW drops price of IG, marines etc forcing yet cheaper orks to match.
Silentz wrote: A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.
Not if it says for units under X models, gives smaller units a chance to do something.
Silentz wrote: A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.
Why not? It is precisely that way Necron Crypteks works.
Not that I care much either way:The present wording of the Kustom Force Field works fine from a balance perspective, it just makes the movement phase very slow and prone to endless measuring.
End result is that even elite armies have quite a lot of models! To give orks appropriate number advantage means you are dealing with ridiculous amount of models easily. Resulting in a) expensive to collect b) time consuming to paint c) how you are supposed to fit that army into the board!
That's the exactly the points in collecting orks. To have a huge amount of models and a love for the hobby part which is not only painting stuff but also customizations and conversions (which mitigate a bit their cost in terms of money), orks collections are never finished, there's always something to add. If you're not interested into that you've chosen the wrong faction.
The board is fine, a tipycal 1850 points ork list in 7th edition worths 2500 points now, but it hadn't any problems in fitting into the board. Just make it worth 2000 points instead.
But if model count increases by say 30% that's lots of models for new players to buy and paint. Sure old guys have no problems but what about new players...GW is more interested in selling new army for new players than few additions to old guys.
As for board...Well you fit it with 2500 pts. Whatabout what amounts to old 3250 pts? How much price drop we are looking orks need? 10%? 30%? 50%? People above mentioned 50%. Imagine fitting 3750 pts army into the board. That's a lot of models.
Then GW drops price of IG, marines etc forcing yet cheaper orks to match.
IMHO it should take months if not years to collect a proper army since a new player starts the hobby. Having 2000 points or more in a few days is something that kills the hobby. When I started in 3rd edition I managed to collect 1500 points of orks in more than a year, starting to play after several months of the hobby part. But these days to play with unpainted models is widely accepted so even new players can play after a short period time since they started the hobby. And a new player should go into the 2000 format after lots of games at lower points.
3250 points of boyz is insane, and it's probably too much since some units that are needed like boyz and all the HQs don't need points reductions. But with stuff like vehicles, walkers, etc prices cut by half orks could be competitive, with variety and they will fit the board.
Silentz wrote: A force field that extends as far as the huge unit it just slightly touches does would be wildly unfluffy, and would mean you could protect most of your army with one character.
But that's exactly how the Kustom Force Field worked for two editions in a row. In the 5th ed Ork codex, the KFF gave a 5+ cover save to units within 6", and vehicles counted as Obscured. So it did exactly that, and was considered perfectly fine and fluffy. I mean hell, if there's one faction who can get away with "Crazy science, don't need to explain how it works", it's Orks.
On topic, I'd love to see a rule like the following for Orks in their codex:
DAKKA DAKKA DAKKA!
Orks rarely bother to aim, even under the best circumstances, prefering instead to simply blast away in the general direction of the enemy. Though this does mean their shots rarely hit the mark, it also renders them virtually immune to the effects of stealth fields, targetting scramblers or even smoke screens Ork units in the Shooting Phase ignore all modifiers to their Shooting attacks.
"A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."
This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.
And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.
And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).
The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.
Nym wrote: "A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."
This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.
And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.
And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).
The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.
You mean b.c an Alaitoc Hornet can have -3 to hit?
For me, the fluff behind the low BS has always been that orks simply don't aim. They just pull the trigger nonstop, sometimes even while pointing in the direction of the enemies. So basically every actual hit is a lucky shot.
Gitfinders for me, are just Placebos, since it only works when an ork stands still and actually aims with his gun instead of viciously swinging it around like a beatstick.
So from a fluffy point of view, I would love if orks wouldn't suffer from any negative mod. to their BS since they never really aim at their opponents (or have it cap at 6+ at least), but I don't know what that would do to balancing.
And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets.
We also have Killa Kanz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, the Wazbom Blasta and Grots. And then we have quite a lot of stuff that does not depend on BS at all, like burnas, skorchas, the bombers and the deff kopta bomb.
Most of it is just too expensive and too fragile, because we lack a codex, not because we need core rule changes.
Amishprn86 wrote: You mean b.c an Alaitoc Hornet can have -3 to hit?
As far as I know, only Alaitoc Rangers and Pathfinder can get -3 to hit. But I could be wrong.
Still, even -2 (Hemlock or Rangers without Conceal) is plain stupid since it basically negates Ork shooting entirely. When you throw thousands of bullets / bombs in one direction, you're *bound* to hit something. Hence my proposition of "a 6 to hit is always a success".
pismakron wrote: We also have Killa Kanz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, the Wazbom Blasta and Grots.
Sorry, I should have said that I was only talking about Ork shooting, not Gretchins.
With that said, even Gretchins or GEQ units right now can have their shooting totally negated by a -3 to-hit modifier. This should not be allowed by the core rules.
Amishprn86 wrote: You mean b.c an Alaitoc Hornet can have -3 to hit?
As far as I know, only Alaitoc Rangers and Pathfinder can get -3 to hit. But I could be wrong.
They have a -1 to hit already if they advance (its there basic rule) they can also get an Upgrade to give them another -1 to hit, they could get a -2 to hit already before in the Index, now they can get another -1.
But honestly they are shooting 2 Shuriken cannons (the other weapons are Heavy's) after they advance, its average 1 wound a turn, its not like they are very strong.
Nym wrote: "A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."
This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.
And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.
And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).
The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.
I think an Ork always hitting on a 6 makes sense, due to the mass number of shots they'll aim at any target
I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).
Nym wrote: "A 6 to hit is always a success, disregarding modifiers."
This rule should be in Chapter Approved. Without it, the game is basically broken.
And for the last time, "Ork shooting has always been pretty awful" is NOT TRUE. Orks have always been very good at shooting. They just favor quantity over quality.
And to those who mention our BS4+ units : we have only 2. Flash Gits and Dakkajets. Both are highly overcosted already and suffer from stupid rules (Snazzgun being Heavy for example).
The solution *must* come from a Core rules change.
I think an Ork always hitting on a 6 makes sense, due to the mass number of shots they'll aim at any target
That used to be the rule for any roll in WH (6 always succeeded, 1 always failed) although, sometimes you needed a 2nd roll on top of that to truly succeed. (First a 6+, followed by a 4 or 5+)
Orks should have a special rule that their Ballistic Skill (except Overwatch) can never be improved above or below a 5+! They always hit on 5+'s because of the shear amount of lead they put up into the sky
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).
this, or orks, or everyone always hits on a 6. I like your fluffy rule though, spray and pray
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).
this, or orks, or everyone always hits on a 6. I like your fluffy rule though, spray and pray
I vote for this and 6s are always hits, for all armies.
Nym wrote: Sorry, I should have said that I was only talking about Ork shooting, not Gretchins.
With that said, even Gretchins or GEQ units right now can have their shooting totally negated by a -3 to-hit modifier. This should not be allowed by the core rules.
Do you mean to say you consider needing to use Gretchin to deal with accuracy issues unacceptable? Because they are there largely to give you an option for when you need quality over quantity, such as again the aforementioned meta with lots of - to hit.
Also, it's very hard to stack bonuses that high across an army. Most of those involve stratagems, psychic powers and chapter tactics. It's likely not something your opponent can do every turn or on more than one maybe two units.
I agree there is a problem. I dont like the solutions to make orks cheaper or ignore modifiers. We already have tons of models on the board as is and to ignore modifiers seems unfair as we would advance all the time with no penalty, making it a no brainer tactical decision.
My idea for solutions are:
-increase rate of fire for overpriced units. rokkit buggies for exampe are now 72 pts. keep that but give them assult 6 instead of assult 2 rokkits.
-give all units in all factions access to "snap fire" as an alternative fire mode, this would only hit on unmodifiable 6 similar to overwatch. Or a rule that state a 6+ is always a hit. Orks need this bad, but to be fair all factions should have this.
BigmekRatsmek wrote: For me, the fluff behind the low BS has always been that orks simply don't aim. They just pull the trigger nonstop, sometimes even while pointing in the direction of the enemies. So basically every actual hit is a lucky shot.
Gitfinders for me, are just Placebos, since it only works when an ork stands still and actually aims with his gun instead of viciously swinging it around like a beatstick.
So from a fluffy point of view, I would love if orks wouldn't suffer from any negative mod. to their BS since they never really aim at their opponents (or have it cap at 6+ at least), but I don't know what that would do to balancing.
I really like this idea! Would really fit with Orks IMO. Are there any rumours ref Orks - even when the codex may arrive?
It was pretty obvious from the start of 8th that GW intends for orks to be a one dimensional CC horde. There is no way to fix that without breaking the game.
You cant put a points value on -1 to hit when it has such different effect on BS 3+ units and BS 5+ units, its impossible to balance!
We will get a codex sometime next year and it wont fix a singe thing. Orks are dead.
MechaEmperor7000 wrote: I still vote for adding in the rule that "Orks shooting cannot be affected by modifiers" thing. Considering they're not actually aiming and are just wildly firing at the enemy, even expert stealth should be rendered moot (you basically are hitting them by accident already, so whether or not they're hard to see is out of the question).
But then the question comes to why isn't that a rule for everyone/everything described as firing massive quantities of ammunition at a target...
Here's how I'd do this:
Complimentary Dakka For every 10 models in the unit firing at the same target, you can add +1 to your Hit rolls.
This means that Orks firing lots of dakka at a single unit would get bonuses based on the size of the Mob. It also means that the effectiveness goes down when the unit loses Boyz, since they're not adding to the weight of fire and the Boyz are starting to be less competitive because there's not as many people making a ruckus.
Name could use some work of course, but I could see that being an elegant solution while not just hamfistedly removing the benefits that units like the Ghostkeel and Stealth Suits or Alpha Legion/Raven Guard/Stygies/Alaitoc should be getting.
The issue with that rule is that it means that 30 boy mobs would hit on a 2+, and would be worse in general for those units in question than the un-modified 5+ would be.
It also would not really help the units that need it most (ork shooting units) as they really don't have squad sizes of more than 15. So it would make Boyz even more the best unit the orks have.
I think a rule just stating that for all units in the game a 6+ always hits would be the best fix. That way units still get a benefit from their rules, but it limits stacking things to the point where units are immune to shooting.
A good start would be to give orks any other option than massing boyz. Its literally all orks have going for them atm. Nearly every unit in the codex needs a points reduction. Ork vehicles specifically need anywhere between 30-50% points reduction on nearly every entry. Ork shooting has always been pretty awful. In 8th its even worse with the loss of templates & modifiers you mentioned. Hopefully with the codex release GW comes to its senses & makes the changes that are necessary. I don't play orks, but I'd love to see them become a very competitive army.
+
Blackie wrote:I've always thought since 8th edition dropped that orks just need to have 90% of the units and wargear cut by half. Boyz are fine, but pretty much everything else should be way cheaper than now.
Both of these. Ork units are BS5+, AND have worse guns across the board than other armies - but pay MORE points per gun. Orks are the horde army - they're supposed to be bad at shooting and vehicles (in terms of durability and proficiency), but make it up my just having MORE of everything; more vehicles, more shots, etc.
At the moment, Imperial weapons are cheaper, better, but more importantly; put out more shots - period (Looking at you BS2/3/4+ Heavy20 Punisher Cannon (and that's not even with the Grinding Advance rule)/12 shot Assault Cannons). I don't mind their guns/BS being better, but I do mind having less dice [this is the huge one for me [Orks are the "gak-tons of dice" army]] AND being more expensive on top of it.
shortymcnostrill wrote:In 2nd edition there were hit modifiers too, but the standard ork boy hit on a 4+ so it wasn't that big of a deal. Now a -1 to hit costs you 50% of your expected damage, and a -2 to hit 100%. I don't see orks going back to bs4+ since them being bad shots has become so ingrained in the fluff (that would be quite the retcon).
I hope they gain a "always hits on x+" or maybe a +x to hit when stationary rule. Until that happens ork shooting is, unfortunately, completely useless.
The thing is, Orks aren't particularly bad at shooting - most prefer the way of the Choppa; that, coupled with the fact that they care more about the sound/maximum dakka, and less about actually hitting the target, means they tend to not be represented as accurately. There are entire clans/lifestyles centered around the way of the dakka [hell, this name of this site is based around the word, and the term "Dakka" in general, was coined due to the massive quantities of Ork shooting].
That said, BS5+ is their identity at this point, and it's fair enough, plus differentiates them on the table; a rule I keep seeing pop-up as proposed is "Orks always hit on a 5+" - they don't care about what anyone's doing (evasive maneuvers, hiding, etc), and care more about outputting massive amounts of lead; they keep the generally bad shooting odds, but don't get completely screwed over by -1/-2 to hit modifiers.
Other armies are supposed to be envious of the amount of shots an Ork unit can put out; not the other way around.
I love the idea of "always hits on 5+" for orks. I feel its fluffy as in most lost they seem to just spray bullets in the general direction of the fight or simple as many bullets at the target in general. I feel like this would also be great for the meta because -1 or -2 to hit can ruin a faction (so is very useful) but then there is a clear disadvantage when you come up against orks having that be the centerpiece of your army. I feel like the game needs more counter like this so that in tournament play there are clear anti meta lists/ armies that can be taken and it would discourage people from putting all their eggs in one basket. Its not too powerful, it fits the fluff and it allows counter play so i would love to see it.
They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.
Breng77 wrote: The issue with that rule is that it means that 30 boy mobs would hit on a 2+, and would be worse in general for those units in question than the un-modified 5+ would be.
It also would not really help the units that need it most (ork shooting units) as they really don't have squad sizes of more than 15. So it would make Boyz even more the best unit the orks have.
I think a rule just stating that for all units in the game a 6+ always hits would be the best fix. That way units still get a benefit from their rules, but it limits stacking things to the point where units are immune to shooting.
I kept swinging between 10/15 for the modifier to take place.
Of course it could always just be added to the shooty units themselves and then be modified to +1/5.
Like I said though, I feel like it's a bit of a slippery slope as to "Why do Orks get this benefit but literally nobody else who does the exact same thing have it?".
The Hydra Flak Tank, for example, is described as firing non-stop curtains of autocannon fire...but hits on a 4+ against Flyers and 5+ against ground targets? You'd think that if it brought its guns to bear on ground targets, you'd still be firing non-stop curtains of autocannon fire.
Amishprn86 wrote: They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.
On second thought that might be an even better option. I like the idea of having different styles of play within the same army as this adds diversity and counter play leading to a less stale meta. Its one of the reasons I really disliked the FAQ on IG "send in the next wave" because I feel like they were meant to be that "tanky" side of IG (tough tanks/ more bodies) rather than which IG faction can gun line the best. It's no different than popular card games like Hearthstone or MTG. The more varied and useful types of decks per class the more diverse the Meta is and it pushes people away from building decks that are only good at a single thing. You obviously need to have a focus but it encourages you to take x unit/card that can increase your win rate against certain types of armies/decks.
So IMO Orks should always be a horde/cheap unit army but can have various clans that excel at lots of shooting/ all CC/ weird boy trickery ect.
Amishprn86 wrote: They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.
On second thought that might be an even better option. I like the idea of having different styles of play within the same army as this adds diversity and counter play leading to a less stale meta. Its one of the reasons I really disliked the FAQ on IG "send in the next wave" because I feel like they were meant to be that "tanky" side of IG (tough tanks/ more bodies) rather than which IG faction can gun line the best. It's no different than popular card games like Hearthstone or MTG. The more varied and useful types of decks per class the more diverse the Meta is and it pushes people away from building decks that are only good at a single thing. You obviously need to have a focus but it encourages you to take x unit/card that can increase your win rate against certain types of armies/decks.
So IMO Orks should always be a horde/cheap unit army but can have various clans that excel at lots of shooting/ all CC/ weird boy trickery ect.
Agreed - it's a good middle ground, and allows for specialization in shooting, versus other aspects.
EDIT: me. I got stuck thinking Shootas were 3 shots instead of 2 (Big Shootas)... still, the concept is there. :3 I'm a runty squig.
These are fine numbers - the Space Marine will more reliably get his 1-2 hits, while the Ork can whiff all his attacks (landing 0-1 most likely), but also spike above the norm with a lot of luck; this is what makes Ork shooting so much fun, as an Ork player - I know on average that I'll be less effective (as I should be), but I can hope to get real lucky [the thrill of gambling, with none of the risk (in a non-tournament setting :p)]. -- Orks depend on the law of averages, whereas other armies rely on their stats (4+ to hit models rely a little on both).
Extrapolating that to comparable platforms...
SM Razorback: AC, 12 shots, BS3+ = 8 hits (7.992, Max 12).
AM Leman Russ: Punisher Cannon, 20/40 shots, BS4+ = 10/20 hits (Max 20/40)
Points costs, special rules, and chapter tactics would make up the differences between models equipped with this weaponry. Yes, Orks can spike very high; but they can also spike very low, on average.
Gun-line orks should be a viable army. - And before you bring up "but orks are good in melee!", keep in mind the sentence above - Points costs, special rules, chapter tactics; also, Orks have very poor armor and toughness; those would be other factors in these comparisons as well.
Compare the numbers above to our weapon/vehicle profiles and costs, and you'll see just how undergunned Orks (Dakkajet excluded ) really are - and that's before any negative to hit modifiers...
Gretchin models could also have weapons of similar average hit rations - trading the ability to spike higher for a more reliable shooting phase; at the cost of the rest of their statline (S2, T2, Sv6+, A1; for BS4+ instead of 5+).
Also, we need Gretchin snipers - make them Ratlings; but replacing "Shoot and Scurry" with "Good at hiding" (ala Big Guns) - or some other rule that helps keep them safe.
Breng77 wrote: Complimentary Dakka
For every 10 models in the unit firing at the same target, you can add +1 to your Hit rolls.
The issue with that rule is that it means that 30 boy mobs would hit on a 2+, and would be worse in general for those units in question than the un-modified 5+ would be.
It also would not really help the units that need it most (ork shooting units) as they really don't have squad sizes of more than 15. So it would make Boyz even more the best unit the orks have.
I think a rule just stating that for all units in the game a 6+ always hits would be the best fix. That way units still get a benefit from their rules, but it limits stacking things to the point where units are immune to shooting.
Arkaine wrote: Or since everyone is metagaming a legion trait to get -1 to hit, Orks could get a warband trait that is +1 to BS.
Now everything is back to normal and Orks still can't shoot planes as usual.
I could see this.
"More Dakka: Bad Moon Orks have more wealth than other klans, and they use this wealth to customize their shootas, guns and other gubbinz. As a result they add +1 to their BS when firing". Even if it was just at units outside of 12" it might be useful.
Barring a major codex re-write though I suspect Blood Axes getting a -1 to hit outside of 12" of their own would be more attractive.
@fe40k dude, ork shootas are assault 2 18". We have the same number of shots as a space marine.
Orks are basically the worst faction in 40k. When you play space marines you pick the lore that best suits you. Want shooting army then go for iron hand or dark angels! Want a close combat army? Go for space wolves or blood angels. The models are effectively the same but the lore changes how they play and how the player plays them. Orks on the other hand don't have this as we are forced to play how gw wants us to play (at least other factions have allies that let you pick how you want to play). Gw in all their stupid tactics made orks seem 1 dimensional and ruined how everyone perceives us. Everyone looks at an ork the same and sees it as a dumb funny green thing that likes to hit things... Apart from they are not! Orks have just as much diversity as the marine chapters! We have klans, all with their own unique set of traits, beliefs, way of living and way of fighting. Some orks, blood axes for example, genuinely train using military tactics and organisation! If Orks were represented on the table top as they were in the lore their codex and index wouod have been like the space marine one. Each klan would have unique rules, characters, units and equipment!
A Evil sunz boy does not hit as hard as a goff boy but a goff biker does not move as fast as a Evil Sunz biker. A Bad Moon Ork has better equipment than a Blood Axe boy but the Blood Axe boy has better training and better tactics.... an so on... orks are so misunderstood by years of neglect by GW in their lazy rule writing.
It's the most heart breaking thing to spend months or hears building an ork army that fits your personality only to have them washed into a general pile. My Evil Sunz Orks play like any other Ork army now... Imagine if Dark Angels players were suddenly told their terminators were just normal terminators with no special characters or anything.
I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.
What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.
Amishprn86 wrote: Reduce all cost on Guns, vehicles and every unit other than Boyz and make Orks never hit worst than a 6+ no matter what.
I think capping the to-hit at 6+ is fair game-wide. It doesn't seem fair to have units that literally cannot be shot at, and eldar can apparently stack several -1 sources.
Or maybe you cap the to hit at 6+ if you don't move. It might not be fair to abuse the 'always hit on 6s' if someone is, say, advancing and shooting, or moving with a heavy weapon and shooting at a flyer because they know they can't be penalized further.
Still, the answer does seem to be just use mek gunz. I'm not a big fan of lootas or tankbustas anymore, as cover saves are basically useless for them, and vehicles are too expensive for what you get. KMKs are just all-around solid.
Marmatag wrote: I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.
What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.
I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.
Marmatag wrote: I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.
What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.
I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.
Essentially, it feels like they've dumbed down the entire Ork Faction to just Boyz Boyz Boyz in how everything works. No Nuance or anything of that sort otherwise.
I wouldn't mind the return of that Bad Moonz overlord who shot as well as Space Marines!
Amishprn86 wrote: Reduce all cost on Guns, vehicles and every unit other than Boyz and make Orks never hit worst than a 6+ no matter what.
I think capping the to-hit at 6+ is fair game-wide. It doesn't seem fair to have units that literally cannot be shot at, and eldar can apparently stack several -1 sources.
Or maybe you cap the to hit at 6+ if you don't move. It might not be fair to abuse the 'always hit on 6s' if someone is, say, advancing and shooting, or moving with a heavy weapon and shooting at a flyer because they know they can't be penalized further.
Still, the answer does seem to be just use mek gunz. I'm not a big fan of lootas or tankbustas anymore, as cover saves are basically useless for them, and vehicles are too expensive for what you get. KMKs are just all-around solid.
Dude.... we're hitting on 6s.... any "abuse" wouldn't make us op at all! Other factions can advance and fire heavy weapons right now. XD
lolman1c wrote: @fe40k dude, ork shootas are assault 2 18". We have the same number of shots as a space marine.
Orks are basically the worst faction in 40k. When you play space marines you pick the lore that best suits you. Want shooting army then go for iron hand or dark angels! Want a close combat army? Go for space wolves or blood angels. The models are effectively the same but the lore changes how they play and how the player plays them. Orks on the other hand don't have this as we are forced to play how gw wants us to play (at least other factions have allies that let you pick how you want to play). Gw in all their stupid tactics made orks seem 1 dimensional and ruined how everyone perceives us. Everyone looks at an ork the same and sees it as a dumb funny green thing that likes to hit things... Apart from they are not! Orks have just as much diversity as the marine chapters! We have klans, all with their own unique set of traits, beliefs, way of living and way of fighting. Some orks, blood axes for example, genuinely train using military tactics and organisation! If Orks were represented on the table top as they were in the lore their codex and index wouod have been like the space marine one. Each klan would have unique rules, characters, units and equipment!
A Evil sunz boy does not hit as hard as a goff boy but a goff biker does not move as fast as a Evil Sunz biker. A Bad Moon Ork has better equipment than a Blood Axe boy but the Blood Axe boy has better training and better tactics.... an so on... orks are so misunderstood by years of neglect by GW in their lazy rule writing.
It's the most heart breaking thing to spend months or hears building an ork army that fits your personality only to have them washed into a general pile. My Evil Sunz Orks play like any other Ork army now... Imagine if Dark Angels players were suddenly told their terminators were just normal terminators with no special characters or anything.
lmao - I'm a runty squig; I shoulda known better (even doubly so since Shoota Boyz iz my favorite). I guess I was stuck thinking of Big Shootas (and the fact that 3 shots at BS5+ vs 2 shots at BS3+ makes enough sense balance-wise (until you compare squad sizes)) - but that would just be unbalanced.
Ok, I can admit I fethed up - the numbers did sound a bit high as I was typing them, but I was like "eh, feth it".
Regarding the different types of marines - I feel Chapters should just be a color of paint on your model - a marine is a marine, and they should play relatively similar; that said, certain Chapters/Tactics would lend themselves to benefiting different models in the army, and changing up the playstyle/stats a bit -- but having entirely different models/units per Chapter seems... unorthodox? I get that chapters adapt, but it almost feels like heresy, the number of differences between each chapter.
That said, I'm in complete agreement about the Klans - and not just because SM get their cake and eat it too (Chapters). You're completely right, Ork klans should feel like they actually play different when they hit the tabletop; instead of just a different coat of paint. Also agreed that most people look at an Ork and think "Dumb, avoid in close combat, can't shoot, next" - there's seriously so many varieties of Orks and tactiks (at least in the lore), but none of them get play; that said, this isn't limited to just Orks... every faction that isn't Space Marines/Astra Militarum is entirely underrepresented in their lore, when it come to tabletop playstyles and options. [That's not a jab at Space Marines either; I think of CSM, and they're missing a lot of playstyles and things, and they're a Marine faction too.]
I'm a 3rd edition player, who quit when 5th came out - Looters and Looted Vehicles were my jam; it was just so much fun to look think about all the options and combinations you could play with (not even from a powergaming standpoint), plus modelling opportunities. - Gimme back my looted tanks, and let me run solid dakka buggies/warbikers.
I played a Looty/Shooty army which included a lot of smaller vehicles (buggies), and a few looted tanks - I'd love if I didn't feel like I was shooting myself (and my chances to win) instead of my enemy by trying to build around that. Deff Skullz (the lootiest!) and Blood Axes (the most unconventional in tactics and outfits), WAAAGH!
Seriously though, the lore is incredible for the Klans, and provides SO many opportunities for differentiation. Shame it hasn't been represented at all.
Edit: Damn, I really want Klan Codex's - that'd be amazing, and would really feel like you're bringing the Boyz together and leading a warband of your own when you mix the klans. Plus, we'd get access to some allies finally!
lolman1c wrote: @fe40k dude, ork shootas are assault 2 18". We have the same number of shots as a space marine.
Orks are basically the worst faction in 40k. When you play space marines you pick the lore that best suits you. Want shooting army then go for iron hand or dark angels! Want a close combat army? Go for space wolves or blood angels. The models are effectively the same but the lore changes how they play and how the player plays them. Orks on the other hand don't have this as we are forced to play how gw wants us to play (at least other factions have allies that let you pick how you want to play). Gw in all their stupid tactics made orks seem 1 dimensional and ruined how everyone perceives us. Everyone looks at an ork the same and sees it as a dumb funny green thing that likes to hit things... Apart from they are not! Orks have just as much diversity as the marine chapters! We have klans, all with their own unique set of traits, beliefs, way of living and way of fighting. Some orks, blood axes for example, genuinely train using military tactics and organisation! If Orks were represented on the table top as they were in the lore their codex and index wouod have been like the space marine one. Each klan would have unique rules, characters, units and equipment!
A Evil sunz boy does not hit as hard as a goff boy but a goff biker does not move as fast as a Evil Sunz biker. A Bad Moon Ork has better equipment than a Blood Axe boy but the Blood Axe boy has better training and better tactics.... an so on... orks are so misunderstood by years of neglect by GW in their lazy rule writing.
It's the most heart breaking thing to spend months or hears building an ork army that fits your personality only to have them washed into a general pile. My Evil Sunz Orks play like any other Ork army now... Imagine if Dark Angels players were suddenly told their terminators were just normal terminators with no special characters or anything.
lmao - I'm a runty squig; I shoulda known better (even doubly so since Shoota Boyz iz my favorite). I guess I was stuck thinking of Big Shootas (and the fact that 3 shots at BS5+ vs 2 shots at BS3+ makes enough sense balance-wise (until you compare squad sizes)) - but that would just be unbalanced.
Ok, I can admit I fethed up - the numbers did sound a bit high as I was typing them, but I was like "eh, feth it".
Regarding the different types of marines - I feel Chapters should just be a color of paint on your model - a marine is a marine, and they should play relatively similar; that said, certain Chapters/Tactics would lend themselves to benefiting different models in the army, and changing up the playstyle/stats a bit -- but having entirely different models/units per Chapter seems... unorthodox? I get that chapters adapt, but it almost feels like heresy, the number of differences between each chapter.
That said, I'm in complete agreement about the Klans - and not just because SM get their cake and eat it too (Chapters). You're completely right, Ork klans should feel like they actually play different when they hit the tabletop; instead of just a different coat of paint. Also agreed that most people look at an Ork and think "Dumb, avoid in close combat, can't shoot, next" - there's seriously so many varieties of Orks and tactiks (at least in the lore), but none of them get play; that said, this isn't limited to just Orks... every faction that isn't Space Marines/Astra Militarum is entirely underrepresented in their lore, when it come to tabletop playstyles and options. [That's not a jab at Space Marines either; I think of CSM, and they're missing a lot of playstyles and things, and they're a Marine faction too.]
I'm a 3rd edition player, who quit when 5th came out - Looters and Looted Vehicles were my jam; it was just so much fun to look think about all the options and combinations you could play with (not even from a powergaming standpoint), plus modelling opportunities. - Gimme back my looted tanks, and let me run solid dakka buggies/warbikers.
I played a Looty/Shooty army which included a lot of smaller vehicles (buggies), and a few looted tanks - I'd love if I didn't feel like I was shooting myself (and my chances to win) instead of my enemy by trying to build around that. Deff Skullz (the lootiest!) and Blood Axes (the most unconventional in tactics and outfits), WAAAGH!
Seriously though, the lore is incredible for the Klans, and provides SO many opportunities for differentiation. Shame it hasn't been represented at all.
Edit: Damn, I really want Klan Codex's - that'd be amazing, and would really feel like you're bringing the Boyz together and leading a warband of your own when you mix the klans. Plus, we'd get access to some allies finally!
Klan Codexes would be really cool. Id love to see some special rules for combining Klans based on which one is the lead bossing the others around. If they did something like this I'd have to build an Ork army in 40k (after swearing I never would after having a 400+ night goblin army in WHFB).
Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.
I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.
Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.
Marmatag wrote: I wouldn't say Orks are the worst faction. Overall in ITC they're doing better than quite a few, including most marine factions that don't have a super HQ bubble. Although this includes RTT.
What really kills Orks is the Imperium Soup, because everyone can take the single best anti-melee walling unit in the game, or equivalent for Chaos.
I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.
Like <Hive Fleet> or <Sept>. When you reveice your codex, you'll receive Klan sub-factions and special rules. This has been confirmed. Of course right now those keywords don't do anything.
Marmatag wrote: Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.
I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.
Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.
If you have no shooting element, then what tactics are there, other then "charge!"?
The game's health would be significantly improved if every army could go melee, or shooting, focused - just because you're good at one aspect of the game doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to compete in others (as long as there were positives/negatives for what you were doing) - actually, Chapter/Klan/Craftworld/etc. shouldn't just be a positive, there should be negatives too. [+1X, -1X; +special rule, -special rule; etc, depending on what you chose.] That way, mixing armies could give you different strategic/tactical elements - and if you wanted to run a generic/"unaligned" army, that wouldn't be a penalty either; you'd be more balanced at the cost of specialization.
I will agree though that all melee focused armies do need a buff; close combat doesn't have the reach or effectiveness that shooting does.
Marmatag wrote: Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.
I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.
Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.
Orks have many shooting platforms that are not Boyz, those need to be ale to shoot, and as of now with every codex army having a -1 to hit and some with -2 to hit and now Eldar with units that are -3 to hit, they NEED to way to ignore that otherwise they literally can not shoot.
IMO Orks need "If a unit is under 10 models that units shooting can never be modified worst than a 6+ to hit" then with some clans having the same rule but as "Never worst than a 5+"
I think that the game has something fundamentally wrong.
We are yet again advocating a fix that goes around a newly introduced game mechanic.
- We have problems with characters that buff without being targeted - Template -->d6 transition was so bad that every other army has a rule to go around it - Pseudo-relentless must be reintroduced otherwise the damage output of bipods and some tank is too low. When is not pseudo-relentless, it's the double shot (that is, too, a way to go around the problem raised in the point immediately above this one). - Now, multiple stacks of -1 are already going off hand, especially against low BS hit armies - Corollary: we have to propose another army rule to go against a mechanic shared by many armies
I could be, as usual, exaggeratedly negative but I don't see this go in the right direction.
I'm not here to tell you that Ork shooting is fine. I'm also not going to say all the -1 to hit - that do stack - are positive for the game. Even if you're a marine player, losing -2 to hit is devastating - even moreso than you think - because we pay a premium for our higher ballistic skill, and as an army depend on it far more than you do. The core of my message is that I AGREE, there is a problem here brought on by some of these new rules.
That said, I will not accept the argument that melee has no tactics. Melee tactics are there, the problem right now, is that some armies have tools that render melee tactics completely obsolete. I hate to get into specifics because it will derail a thread, but conscripts negate melee armies. Brimstones negate melee armies. Artillery / shooting without Line of Sight across the map negate melee armies. There are tactical options out there for some of the very powerful meta armies that simply do not allow for tactical melee counterplay.
I see this all the time. I ran (for a while) competitive Grey Knights. I started adding Guard to my list and ultimately realized it would be better if i just dropped the GK completely, because in reality they were NEVER seeing melee with anything. This is frustrating. I am trying to empathize with you: I feel your pain.
But there is a silver lining, in that with some balance, and some stratagems, Orks could be great. Consider the precedent set by some abilities we already know:
1. Alpha legion - pay a command point to redeploy a unit 9" away from an enemy unit. This is done during deployment and can be used multiple times. Imagine this on Boyz. You'd be moving, and 3" charging (with rerolls) with 90 boyz turn 1 with 3 CP spent. Can you argue that wouldn't be a massive game altering buff?
2. Expanded transport options - melee armies depend on vehicles to get them into the fight. Deep strike melee is a recipe for losing competitive games. It doesn't work unless you're dropping a lot of units on the table AND rerolling charges. It's simply far too unreliable and you will eat a lot of overwatch in the process. Better to simply transport up, and then dismount for a more reliable charge. They could easily expand Trukks to carry 25 boyz. That would be a significant boost.
3. Expanded psychic disciplines - you will get 3 more powers, and they could easily be something like, "Get Lucky," improve ballistic skill of a unit within 18" by +2. So, while you don't have predictably accurate shooting, you can have it when it matters.
The list goes on. There are ways to make Orks more playable and tactical without fundamentally adjusting points and other things. And some of this is a precedent based on what we've already seen, and some is just me spitballing ideas.
At the end of the day I do agree with the core idea that you need a buff. I'm also here to tell you that other armies that depend on melee also need a buff, too. Don't forget us when you're good.
As an ork player I think the problem of negative modifiers to BS is a non-issue for us. If stacked negative modifiers to BS becomes a big part of the meta, then it will be to the advantage of armies with a strong melee component and access to cost efficient smite. Chaos, Orks and Tyranids top that list. Tau and Guard will suffer.
Orks has a severe disadvantage against fliers with airborne and hard-to-hit, because they combine BOTH immunity to assault and a negative to-hit modifier. But those fliers has been reigned in through other means.
Galas wrote: Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?
Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.
Stormboyz are good. There are players out here that field them and do well. I don't know if i'd charge a flyer with them. Seems like with Orks i'd just ignore the flyers altogether.
In regards to points to realmoney, Orks are pretty bad regardless of unit choice.
Yeah, thats why I say that theres a point where "Just make them cheaper in points" makes an army suffer the Genestealer-Cult syndrome.
Tyranids and Orks are near that. And we all know Horde armies are more expensive, money-wise, to collect. But theres a point you make it nearly impossible to do so in a reasonable amount of time or money. In many cases Orks (Normally vehicles) shouldn't be cheaper, just make them better so they are worth their points.
Galas wrote: Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?
Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.
Stormboyz are great - They're an Ork Boy with a rokkit strapped to the back; 8ppm vs 6ppm (33% more), but much faster movespeed, can advance and charge (but has a 1/6 chance per model to lose a boy in the squad) and flyer. However, they lose out on Objective Secured, as well as the +1A while 20+ models remain in the unit, so...
If you need something choppy to hit the enemies lines, and fast; they seem like a solid go-to. That said, they lose out at the top end in number of attacks (which matters since you can "Da Jump" boyz), plus can't hold objectives versus other faction's troops.
When it comes to punching aircraft - someone did the math once, and honestly; they're pretty inefficient, due to the high T and Sv that vehicles have. That said, if you get real lucky, you might have a shot of taking down a place. Plus, it's just a hilarious mental image; a bunch of boyz chasing a plane and punching the pilots.
As far as real-money goes... convert! You're still going to need a bunch of boyz as the base models; but, that's just orks in general - we need a lot of models, but can get away with a lot of customization and plasti-card crafting too.
fe40k wrote: Plus, it's just a hilarious mental image; a bunch of boyz chasing a plane and punching the pilots.
The Space Marine Videogame predicted the future. I see nothing bad about units with jump and jet packs being able to punch flyers to the dead.
I remember a Night Lord art with some Raptors destroying the engines and killing the pilots of a IG Valkyrie, and it looked pretty sick! Now we can do that kind of thing on the tabletop!
To hit modifiers in a d6 system is not good design and its even worse when you give modifiers out like candy. It makes for REALLY difficult balance when you have units that can vary from hitting on 4s all the way to being impossible to hit the target. While it impacts Orks the most, its not so much an Ork problem but general game mechanics issue.
Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.
Orks players sometimes do quite good in tournaments only because of the rock-paper-scissor syndrome. They all field green tides and when they place it's because they've faced lists that suffered hordes of infantries. You have also to consider that tournaments usually have time limits and the games end by turn 3, which is very different from a real 40k game. Those greentides may be very good in scoring and surviving for 3 turns, but in an entire game they'll perform quite worse.
Orks shooting should be a thing. In fact the ork codex has basically half the units that are shoot oriented, maybe even more than melee ones. With the exception of a few profile that should be improved (KMK, snazzguns and grotzookas) I don't want better weapons or even better BS, orks should only have the possibility to bring more of them. The concept of "more boyz" should be applied to all the other units in the codex in order to make them viable and a solid alternative to the t-shirt save spam.
I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.
Personally I say no 5+ cap. If I’m a <insert warrior> who has a piece of equipment or trains to a standard to make it harder for my enemy to hit me...especially if my enemy can’t shoot like an Ork, spraying and praying would be more accurate engaging targets that do not seek cover or are not concealed, therefore I say no cap because Orks accuracy would only continue to diminish with professional “warriors” seeking cover and concealment. So no cap.
Galas wrote: Can't Orks charge flyers with Stormboyzs and destroy them in meele?
Aren't stormboyz one of the best Ork units? But they have a very bad point-realmoney ratio.
Sure, though engaging them is usually pretty difficult due to how much movement Flyers have.
However if they do manage to close in, they're not exactly brilliant against them. Storm-raven is a pretty common sight in 8th, so let's work from that. T7 and 14 Wounds with a 3+ save means Stormboyz need to cause, on average, 42 wounds to bring a Stormraven down. Stormboyz wound the Raven on a 5+, so they need to hit it 126 times to cause 42 wounds. Since Stormboyz hit on a 3+, that works out to 189 attacks. Since a Stormboy has 3 attacks, that works out to 63 Stormboyz, or slightly over 3 full squads, to take out a single Stormraven.
You can throw in a Nob with a Power Klaw, but on average they do around 2 dmg a turn, so not a noticeable increase.
I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.
No-one disputes that spamming Boyz is an effective way to play Orks. It most certainly is, and is basically the only way to play the Index effectively. However, half the Index are shooting units, and currently, they're simply not worth taking. The increasing amount of negative hit modifiers also penalizes Orks most of all armies and renders these units even more worthless. Other playstyles other than spamming Boyz should be viable.
lolman1c wrote: [I don't mean worse in how they play, i mean worse in how gw has dumbed them down into just orks.... nothing is special about them they're just the enemy of the imperium! It feels like we've been written by an imperial scout who doesn't understand ork society than an actual ork. At least Eldar have a huge list of factions to pick from each with their own style. Right now they're is next to no reason to have the tag <klan> in our keywords.
Well you can bet whatever you like that klan's gets faction traits. Eldar didn't have those before codex either. There was no reason for eldar to have tag craftworld for them before codex.
But sigh at these days when you need special snowflake rules for different factions to differentiate them.
Marmatag wrote: Orks need a buff - I totally and wholeheartedly agree with that statement.
But to me it should be centered around improving tactical effectiveness rather than just "more boyz!" or "better ballistic skill!" Because Orks will never be a shooting army, and you'll never have more bodies than the other horde lists.
I would ALSO say that *all* melee focused armies need a buff.
Orks, Tyranids, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Grey Knights, etc. are all hurting. Although Orks are doing better than the other armies in this list. Truly.
If you have no shooting element, then what tactics are there, other then "charge!"?
The game's health would be significantly improved if every army could go melee, or shooting, focused - just because you're good at one aspect of the game doesn't mean you shouldn't be able to compete in others (as long as there were positives/negatives for what you were doing) - actually, Chapter/Klan/Craftworld/etc. shouldn't just be a positive, there should be negatives too. [+1X, -1X; +special rule, -special rule; etc, depending on what you chose.] That way, mixing armies could give you different strategic/tactical elements - and if you wanted to run a generic/"unaligned" army, that wouldn't be a penalty either; you'd be more balanced at the cost of specialization.
I will agree though that all melee focused armies do need a buff; close combat doesn't have the reach or effectiveness that shooting does.
Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.
If game has no units that shoot with BS5+ that just dulls armies down. The scale of values are too narrow as it is. What needs to be done is work around with that restriction.
Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.
Why exactly? Orks have long been established in the fluff as liking to shoot; this entire website is named after their predilection for doing exactly that. Lootas, Tankbustas, Deffkoptas, all 3 types of Buggies, Burna Boyz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, all four flyers, Flash Gitz; these are all units that are dedicated to shooting. The fact that they have some melee capabilities too no more makes them melee units than Devestators having WS3+ and Str 4 makes them melee units. It's particularly telling that the Gorkanaut, Morkanaut and Stompa, the largest war machines available to the current Ork army, one of which is an avatar of their gods, are festooned with ranged weapons. In fact, there's no option to run them without these weapons. The Battlewagon has double the ranged options to its melee ones. Even units focused on close combat sport guns, like Biker Boyz and Killa Kans.
All of which you say shouldn't count, because Orks are apparently a melee army that isn't allowed to focus on shooting because of reasons.
BS5+ is fine with orks, I don't think orks players actually want to improve units that currently have BS5+ to BS4+. We just need way more shots for the current prices.
In close combat orks can throw buckets of dice, they should be able to do the same in the shooting phase as well.
Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.
Why exactly? Orks have long been established in the fluff as liking to shoot; this entire website is named after their predilection for doing exactly that. Lootas, Tankbustas, Deffkoptas, all 3 types of Buggies, Burna Boyz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, all four flyers, Flash Gitz; these are all units that are dedicated to shooting. The fact that they have some melee capabilities too no more makes them melee units than Devestators having WS3+ and Str 4 makes them melee units. It's particularly telling that the Gorkanaut, Morkanaut and Stompa, the largest war machines available to the current Ork army, one of which is an avatar of their gods, are festooned with ranged weapons. In fact, there's no option to run them without these weapons. The Battlewagon has double the ranged options to its melee ones. Even units focused on close combat sport guns, like Biker Boyz and Killa Kans.
All of which you say shouldn't count, because Orks are apparently a melee army that isn't allowed to focus on shooting because of reasons.
They are said to have liking for loud noises and big guns. Not that they are super shooty army that should be outshooting IG all day.
Don't think he said orks should have no shooting elements. Just that orks aren't and shouldn't be.
Why exactly? Orks have long been established in the fluff as liking to shoot; this entire website is named after their predilection for doing exactly that. Lootas, Tankbustas, Deffkoptas, all 3 types of Buggies, Burna Boyz, Big Gunz, Mek Gunz, all four flyers, Flash Gitz; these are all units that are dedicated to shooting. The fact that they have some melee capabilities too no more makes them melee units than Devestators having WS3+ and Str 4 makes them melee units. It's particularly telling that the Gorkanaut, Morkanaut and Stompa, the largest war machines available to the current Ork army, one of which is an avatar of their gods, are festooned with ranged weapons. In fact, there's no option to run them without these weapons. The Battlewagon has double the ranged options to its melee ones. Even units focused on close combat sport guns, like Biker Boyz and Killa Kans.
All of which you say shouldn't count, because Orks are apparently a melee army that isn't allowed to focus on shooting because of reasons.
They are said to have liking for loud noises and big guns. Not that they are super shooty army that should be outshooting IG all day.
No they should not, but given that they have a significant number of units that have shooting as their primary role, those units should be usable. Otherwise the codex becomes essentially very sparse.
usmcmidn wrote: I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.
Personally I say no 5+ cap. If I’m a <insert warrior> who has a piece of equipment or trains to a standard to make it harder for my enemy to hit me...especially if my enemy can’t shoot like an Ork, spraying and praying would be more accurate engaging targets that do not seek cover or are not concealed, therefore I say no cap because Orks accuracy would only continue to diminish with professional “warriors” seeking cover and concealment. So no cap.
It hardly seems fair to me to be forced to pay 17 points for a 6+ save 1 wound boy that causes 2 or 3 points of low-ap damage per game, if is allowed to shoot at all. How much should I pay for a bs7+ loota?
usmcmidn wrote: I played a guy who fielded like 200 boyz or how ever you spell it... got the second then charge, and well let’s just say he did just fine with crappy shooting. I think the 5+ to hit for shooting before modifiers is just fine... in lore Orks are not known to be marksman anyway.
Personally I say no 5+ cap. If I’m a <insert warrior> who has a piece of equipment or trains to a standard to make it harder for my enemy to hit me...especially if my enemy can’t shoot like an Ork, spraying and praying would be more accurate engaging targets that do not seek cover or are not concealed, therefore I say no cap because Orks accuracy would only continue to diminish with professional “warriors” seeking cover and concealment. So no cap.
It hardly seems fair to me to be forced to pay 17 points for a 6+ save 1 wound boy that causes 2 or 3 points of low-ap damage per game, if is allowed to shoot at all. How much should I pay for a bs7+ loota?
I think perhaps the real problem here (though I admit it harms orks disproportionately) is the sheer amount of -1 modifiers people can get.
-1 to-hit is fine, and can be decisive, especially if there are ways to play around it (e.g. anti-air guns against aircraft). -2 to-hit is less fine, and should REALLY be limited to very very very very specific situations (e.g. a special character sniper or something, that you get 1/army). -3 to hit is right out.
I would like to propose an experiment to all Ork players.
In your next game, see if your opponent will let you test out one (or both) of the following:
Ork BS cannot be modified due to anything.
Double the amount of shots of all Ork Guns. All dice rolls always succeed on a natural 6 and fail on a natural 1.
In either case, do not increase the Ork's points cost at all. I'm interested to see if either of these actually solve the problem in a practical setting. I will be trying this myself if I can get a game with my orks (not likely since I run green tide and don't like setting up that many models) but I wanna see if we can get a decent sample size. If it does push Orks up, then maybe we should all email the results to GW for consideration in the codex (the IGFAQ proved that they're at least willing to listen and make changes based on community feedback, even if it wasn't a good fix).
In your next game, see if your opponent will let you test out one (or both) of the following:
Ork BS cannot be modified due to anything.
Double the amount of shots of all Ork Guns. All dice rolls always succeed on a natural 6 and fail on a natural 1.
In either case, do not increase the Ork's points cost at all. I'm interested to see if either of these actually solve the problem in a practical setting. I will be trying this myself if I can get a game with my orks (not likely since I run green tide and don't like setting up that many models) but I wanna see if we can get a decent sample size. If it does push Orks up, then maybe we should all email the results to GW for consideration in the codex (the IGFAQ proved that they're at least willing to listen and make changes based on community feedback, even if it wasn't a good fix).
Mmm... right now, Ork players can't actually shoot Alpha Legion troops in cover from over 12 inches away. Other armies have the same mechanic and we're seeing it in every new Codex.
Am I understanding the problem correctly?
I always thought Ork shooting should improve based on the number of guns actually firing. Like maybe 10 Shoota Boys have BS 5+, but 30 Shootas might have BS 3+. It represents Boys trying to outdo each other, seeing who has the loudest guns and spraying more shots onto the battlefield.
This mechanic would not mean much for smaller, more elite squads, but would it be a real solution?
techsoldaten wrote: Mmm... right now, Ork players can't actually shoot Alpha Legion troops in cover from over 12 inches away. Other armies have the same mechanic and we're seeing it in every new Codex.
Am I understanding the problem correctly?
No. I mean, why would Orks not be able to shoot at alpha Legion troops in cover more than 12 inches away?
techsoldaten wrote: Mmm... right now, Ork players can't actually shoot Alpha Legion troops in cover from over 12 inches away. Other armies have the same mechanic and we're seeing it in every new Codex.
Am I understanding the problem correctly?
No. I mean, why would Orks not be able to shoot at alpha Legion troops in cover more than 12 inches away?
I thought Orks were BS 5+, Alpha Legion are -1 to hit at 12+ inches, and cover would apply another -1 on top of that.
Meaning Orks really would not have a chance to hit them.
Amishprn86 wrote: They could do a all Orks cant be modified past 6+ to hit, but there could be a Ork <Clan> that is range weapons focus and cant be modified past 5+, this would be neat IMO.
Best Solution.
More Dakka! Orks do not necessarily aim. However, they put out so much dakka, that they often hit something through sheer volume. On a natural roll of 6+, Orks always hit, no matter what other modifiers.
Then Bad Moonz can adjust this to 5+ because their gunz are snazzier.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
techsoldaten wrote: Meaning Orks really would not have a chance to hit them.
Do Alpha Legion give an additional -1 to hit while in cover?
Cover in 8th increases armor by one, not reduces the shooter's to-hit, unless there's special ruls to modify it (camo cloaks making it +2 to armor)
While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
While I agree that these traits might well be currently overpowered, having them go from overpowered vs certain armies to being worthless against other armies is not a good balance.
I think the rule where Orks always hit on a 6 is better, as it still means that trait is having an effects, but it also means it goes from being great to simply good, which is much more of a balancing change.
I would even agree that the rule should be universal, and that every army should always hit on a 6. Problem with this is that there is then nothing special to give to orks!
Edit:
However, Ork BS should be awful, and volume of fire is the Orky way to shoot, but another way around this are auto-hit weapons. Burnas, Skorchas, supa-skorcha, are all good and Orky weapons to be using. Right now, these units are more expensive than they should be, but they are likely to get significent points drops in the codex when it eventually turns up.
Maybe even in chapter approved if we're lucky!
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
While I agree that these traits might well be currently overpowered, having them go from overpowered vs certain armies to being worthless against other armies is not a good balance.
I think the rule where Orks always hit on a 6 is better, as it still means that trait is having an effects, but it also means it goes from being great to simply good, which is much more of a balancing change.
I would even agree that the rule should be universal, and that every army should always hit on a 6. Problem with this is that there is then nothing special to give to orks!
Edit:
However, Ork BS should be awful, and volume of fire is the Orky way to shoot, but another way around this are auto-hit weapons. Burnas, Skorchas, supa-skorcha, are all good and Orky weapons to be using. Right now, these units are more expensive than they should be, but they are likely to get significent points drops in the codex when it eventually turns up.
Maybe even in chapter approved if we're lucky!
Not ok to be worthless: Army trait
Ok to be worthless: Entire armies shooting
The "always hit on a 6+" rule should be a core mechanic. It'd be hilarious if Orks had "Always hits on a 5+" for themselves; that way, the army with the worst shooting would become the army with the best shooting - at least against niche targets that are stacking negative to hit modifiers. Orks don't give a gak about what you're trying to do, they're just going to keep shooting away as they always have.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
While I agree that these traits might well be currently overpowered, having them go from overpowered vs certain armies to being worthless against other armies is not a good balance.
I think the rule where Orks always hit on a 6 is better, as it still means that trait is having an effects, but it also means it goes from being great to simply good, which is much more of a balancing change.
I would even agree that the rule should be universal, and that every army should always hit on a 6. Problem with this is that there is then nothing special to give to orks!
Edit:
However, Ork BS should be awful, and volume of fire is the Orky way to shoot, but another way around this are auto-hit weapons. Burnas, Skorchas, supa-skorcha, are all good and Orky weapons to be using. Right now, these units are more expensive than they should be, but they are likely to get significent points drops in the codex when it eventually turns up.
Maybe even in chapter approved if we're lucky!
Not ok to be worthless: Army trait
Ok to be worthless: Entire armies shooting
Err... is that a sarcastic thumbs up? I assume so from that you say. Did you read what I wrote? I said that the always hit on 6+ should be in the game... which is exactly what you just said?
I never at any point even suggested Ork shooting should be worthless, I just said that GW would not implement a rule that totally negates a mechanic they only recently implemented. They are much more likely to fix the Ork rules so that they mesh with the new mechanic.
Though Ork shooting should be terrible. They don't aim. There should be a high number of terribly inaccurate shots.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.
They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.
I’m a bit confused. I think you have terms of your arguement off. Orc already hit on a 5+. It takes something like a culexus assassin to make them hit on a 6+. -1 doesn’t affect this, if that is what you are getting at. What orcs can’t do with the basic boyz is hit on a 4+, so -2 to hit can make it so they need a natural 7 but still falls on a 5+ to hit.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.
They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.
I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear (though I can't imagine how I could have done a better job), but when I said that GW wouldn't make Orks immune to hit modifiers, I meant the idea that had been floated that Orks would always shoot at their normal BS against any army, even if there was a -2 to hit penalty in place. I just don't think it'll happen.
I didn't say that Orks should be made to have a 100% reduction in hits. The exact opposite, in fact, as I said that I thought Orks should always hit on a 6. I then said that maybe this rule should be universal to all armies.
This means that the alaitoc/ravenguard/alpha traits would affects Orks more to start with (a -1 to hit changing a 5+ to a 6+), but if the enemy stacked these buffs to get -2 or -3 to hit, it would actually start to affect orks LESS than other armies (Orks go from 5+ to 6+, while I dunno Necrons go from 4+ to 6+ (I dont know who has a native 4+ BS offhand))
Not sure why everyone is arguing with me as if I'm wrong, and then immediately agreeing with what I actually wrote. I swear stuff like this only happens on the internet.
KTar wrote: I’m very confused here, a -1 does not change a 5+ to a 6+. A -1 changes a 6 to a 5, 5 to a 4, 4 to a 3, 3 to a 2, 2 to a 1, and a 1 to a 1.
It is a -1 to your roll, so it changes a 6 to a 5 etc. So if you hit on a 5 and roll a 5 -1 = 4 you miss. So you need to roll a 6 to hit.
Orock wrote: Fully half of our codex lists can be said to have units based on balistic skill shooting. Without a doubt the most prevalent "chapter tactics" in my local area are the -1 to hit farther than 12 inches away. Ravenguard, alpha legion, stygies admech, tyranids with those character bugs that give an aoe -1 to hit, and now eldar craftworld, and likely in the future tau will have similar, mabye even tyranids. I understand melee is the orks real strength, but our shooting units should not be completely worthless this often. No idea what can be done about this.
paint there guns red and they will shoot better javascript:emoticon('');
KTar wrote: I’m very confused here, a -1 does not change a 5+ to a 6+. A -1 changes a 6 to a 5, 5 to a 4, 4 to a 3, 3 to a 2, 2 to a 1, and a 1 to a 1.
It is a -1 to your roll, so it changes a 6 to a 5 etc. So if you hit on a 5 and roll a 5 -1 = 4 you miss. So you need to roll a 6 to hit.
Yeh, sorry I am an old school player so I'm more used to referring to WS and BS as 5+ 6+ etc etc. The modifiers change how it works, but the outcome is still that if your BS is 5 and you have a -1 modifier, you need to roll a 6+ to be successful.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.
They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.
I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear (though I can't imagine how I could have done a better job), but when I said that GW wouldn't make Orks immune to hit modifiers, I meant the idea that had been floated that Orks would always shoot at their normal BS against any army, even if there was a -2 to hit penalty in place. I just don't think it'll happen.
I didn't say that Orks should be made to have a 100% reduction in hits. The exact opposite, in fact, as I said that I thought Orks should always hit on a 6. I then said that maybe this rule should be universal to all armies.
This means that the alaitoc/ravenguard/alpha traits would affects Orks more to start with (a -1 to hit changing a 5+ to a 6+), but if the enemy stacked these buffs to get -2 or -3 to hit, it would actually start to affect orks LESS than other armies (Orks go from 5+ to 6+, while I dunno Necrons go from 4+ to 6+ (I dont know who has a native 4+ BS offhand))
Not sure why everyone is arguing with me as if I'm wrong, and then immediately agreeing with what I actually wrote. I swear stuff like this only happens on the internet.
With just text its hard to convey tone so its harder for people to pick up intent of a message and becomes problematic when dealing with things like opinions which are typically nuanced and not hard line yes or no answers.
Having 6's always hit is something that does need to be a core rule but an odd side effect of it would be this weird power curve where -1 to hit hurts Orks the most but Orks would then not care about -2, -3, etc because we hit the bottom first so it stops impacting us (except gets hot but no Ork player in their right mind uses blasta weapons). This whole flat to hit modifier thing is just a problematic core rule and needs to be used sparingly or not at all because GW doesn't seem to have the skill set to design around such things (they don't know how to mathhammer).
Niiru wrote: I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear
I wasn't objecting to the "I don't think it'll happen" argument. I was objecting to the "it would make alaitoc, raven guard, etc useless!" argument.
It would not make them useless. It would stop them from being utterly broken against low BS armies.
I meant that it would make the -trait- useless. As in they would just be a basic Eldar/Chaos/SM army essentially without a trait at all. They would still be good in themselves, as their units aren't terrible with a trait, but they could literally take any other trait in the book and be better if Ork's had that rule that ignored all hit modifiers.
Niiru wrote: I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear
I wasn't objecting to the "I don't think it'll happen" argument. I was objecting to the "it would make alaitoc, raven guard, etc useless!" argument.
It would not make them useless. It would stop them from being utterly broken against low BS armies.
I meant that it would make the -trait- useless. As in they would just be a basic Eldar/Chaos/SM army essentially without a trait at all. They would still be good in themselves, as their units aren't terrible with a trait, but they could literally take any other trait in the book and be better if Ork's had that rule that ignored all hit modifiers.
Again, you're advocating that one armies single trait is more valuable than another armies entire shooting.
Also; so what if a trait is "useless" in ONE particular matchup, out of many possibilities - Imperial Fist's "Ignore Cover" is useless against even more matchups; unless you're Space Marines, you're not getting cover - so... 80% of the game? A trait can have downsides, or bad matchups - if a trait is ALL upside, with no possibility of having a negative - then it needs to be nerfed.
Also, don't forget that Orks DO have BS4+ elements (Grots/Flash Gits/etc); these WOULD suffer the -1, since it's still capped at 5+ with this proposed rule.
Niiru wrote: What I was saying was about the version of the proposed change that meant Orks TOTALLY IGNORE ALL MODIFIERS!
It appears there's two separate conversations going on here, as I had been arguing for "always hits on a natural 6" for most of the time I've been in this thread.
Again, you're advocating that one armies single trait is more valuable than another armies entire shooting.
Also; so what if a trait is "useless" in ONE particular matchup, out of many possibilities - Imperial Fist's "Ignore Cover" is useless against even more matchups; unless you're Space Marines, you're not getting cover - so... 80% of the game? A trait can have downsides, or bad matchups - if a trait is ALL upside, with no possibility of having a negative - then it needs to be nerfed.
Also, don't forget that Orks DO have BS4+ elements (Grots/Flash Gits/etc); these WOULD suffer the -1, since it's still capped at 5+ with this proposed rule.
I'm not saying that at all though... I'm just pointing out that if the Orks ability to completely ignore hit modifiers was a Klan Trait, then it would likely be the best one (or at least among the best), and so would be used all the time. Which means that anyone who knows they are playing against that Ork Klan would never choose Alpha/Raven/alaitoc as their army trait, because they would know it would be completely pointless to do so.
Which is fine, as it would mean other legions/craftworlds would get used more often, I guess. I just really doubt that, after GW spent a year setting up traits/doctrines/etc, that they would then turn around and go "oh, by the way, 1/6 army traits are now totally irrelevant if you play against Orks".
However, they are MORE LIKELY to put a cap on the modifiers. An Ork Klan trait that means they always hit on a 6+ regardless of modifiers is much more likely than a trait that means they totally ignore modifiers.
Is this fair? Hell if I know. It's just much more likely to happen.
Am I saying Orks shooting should be thrown away in favour of other peoples traits? No, I PLAY AS ORKS!!
Niiru wrote: What I was saying was about the version of the proposed change that meant Orks TOTALLY IGNORE ALL MODIFIERS!
It appears there's two separate conversations going on here, as I had been arguing for "always hits on a natural 6" for most of the time I've been in this thread.
And I've been agreeing with that the whole time i've been on this thread. Several times I've said so lol. I'm telling the people who things orks should ignore modifiers ENTIRELY that it is wishful thinking and very unlikely to happen as it would cause too many issues with other players army choices.
It doesnt make those traits worthless at all, there are still Ork units that hit on 4+ and if they are not that clan or if its just always cant be mod past a 6+ you still are making shoot shooting 50% less effective.
And against Orks right now how they are being played, -1 to hit is literally 100% worthless, b.c no one is playing Shooting Orks, its all melee.
Orks should be IMO the King of Anti Modifiers army, it shouldnt work on them.
If your partly Invisible and gain a -1 to hit, so what, they are still shooting 100 bullets in that general location, they will hit, lol.
Thats part of the fun with Orks, the silliness of them, the spray and pray, and b.c they believe enough, it will work!
Amishprn86 wrote: It doesnt make those traits worthless at all, there are still Ork units that hit on 4+ and if they are not that clan or if its just always cant be mod past a 6+ you still are making shoot shooting 50% less effective.
I can only assume you're not reading my post properly... though (without being rude) I suspect English may not be your first language, in which case I'm sorry if I'm being unclear. But the trait would become "useless" even on orks with a 4+ BS, if all Orks ignored modifiers. Because that would mean even with a -3 to hit modifier, the 4+ Orks would shoot at 4+, and 5+ Orks would shoot at 5+.. because they're ignoring the modifier entirely.
I think you're getting confused with the OTHER version of the rule we want for Orks, which is the one that says Orks will always hit on a 6+. This doesn't mean Orks with a 4+ BS can only hit on a 6+, it just means that if they get -1/-2/-3 to hit modifiers, the WORST their BS can be modified to is a 6+.
I really hope this makes sense, I've had to explain this exact same thing 3 times now and yet everyone still seems baffled by it.
1.when it says 5+ and 6+, That is with modifiers. Ballistic Skills don't get modified by -1 or +1, only the actual die roll does;
a BS 5+ with a -1 does not become a 6+. This makes no sense even with poor wording because how would you get the "+" part. Unless your 6 sided dice have 7 sides this baffles me. A BS 5+ with a -1 means you need an unmodified roll of a 6, not a roll of a 6+ to hit. All of this is in the actual rules; I'm not making up something new.
2. I think Ork shooting could be fixed with two ways and I'd give the codex both.
a. new rule We'd D'ink We Can: Orks always can hit on an unmodified 6 during the shooting phase with ranged weapons. (orks pyschic presence is so great that even if your orcs are shooting the wrong direction they can hit their target because they think they can.) This does not change BS nor does it stop you from hitting according to your BS.
b. Lookout Gretchin or Gretchin Spys: size 5-10 3points a model, fast attack slot, has the rule Hide: play this unit over 9" away from enemy models at the end of your movement phase. Roll 1d6 for every model in the unit; on a 6 your units takes a mortal wound (he was spotted). This unit has the rule "We see Dem": choose any unit within 12" of this unit and every model in your army can shoot that unit without negative modifiers besides ones from moving heavy ranged weapons.
I cant english well yes, but i think i worded what i meant poorily.
I said Orks always hitting on a 6+ after modifiers isnt ignoring those rules completely, it will ignore a bit of them and i think that is actually a good thing for Orks, out of all the armies i feel Orks are best to counter negatives to hit via shooting, i feel there needs to be some that can ignore rules, there should IMO always be at least some Rock, Paper, Scissors. -1/-2 to hit should be Orks (out side of a couple weapons in some armies, like flamers)
If that makes since?
Like Tyranids ignore Moral, Harlequins Ignore Terrian, etc.. i feel this gives the game better balance as it has a hard counter and will help the meta be more stable, if -1/-2 to hits ae extremely strong and everywhere and Shooting armies are bad like IG, then melee armies will be King, Orks, Daemons, etc.. and, due to those changes you will see players themselves shift the meta to counter those armies and it repeats, as an example, Flamers will be more viable b.c negatives to hit and melee is stronger.
Without hard counters the rules writers are force to faq, change points, power creep, etc...
Niiru wrote: I'm not sure I made myself particularly clear
I wasn't objecting to the "I don't think it'll happen" argument. I was objecting to the "it would make alaitoc, raven guard, etc useless!" argument.
It would not make them useless. It would stop them from being utterly broken against low BS armies.
I meant that it would make the -trait- useless. As in they would just be a basic Eldar/Chaos/SM army essentially without a trait at all. They would still be good in themselves, as their units aren't terrible with a trait, but they could literally take any other trait in the book and be better if Ork's had that rule that ignored all hit modifiers.
Again, you're advocating that one armies single trait is more valuable than another armies entire shooting.
Also; so what if a trait is "useless" in ONE particular matchup, out of many possibilities - Imperial Fist's "Ignore Cover" is useless against even more matchups; unless you're Space Marines, you're not getting cover - so... 80% of the game? A trait can have downsides, or bad matchups - if a trait is ALL upside, with no possibility of having a negative - then it needs to be nerfed.
Also, don't forget that Orks DO have BS4+ elements (Grots/Flash Gits/etc); these WOULD suffer the -1, since it's still capped at 5+ with this proposed rule.
Except....the trait DOES have downsides and bad matchups, and ironically, the bad matchup is what orks are SUPPOSED to do.
Hint, it only works 12" away.
Point-blank shooting from DSers? doesn't do gak.
Assault? nope. (also, this is 8th. you can assault ANYTHING with the right unit, even airplanes.)
Do what orks are supposed to do anyway, get up close and personal and CHOP THEM POINTY EARS!
The idea that "Orks shoot a lot so bad BS is ok" would only be reasonable if Orks actually DID shoot a lot. Shootas are Assault 2 at 18 inches, not much better than rapid fire 24. Tankbustas are assault 1...hardly "a lot" in my book.
To match the fluff, boyz would be assault 4...lootas wold be D6, and tankbustas would be assault 2. That, and a "natural" D6 cap, would fix it. Write GW!
IG should be the high numbers of dice at long range shooting army (So artillery. And high numbers of infantry.)
Tau should be the high quality of firepower at long range shooting army with a nice amount of mobility, but not Eldar mobility.
Eldar should be the high quality of firepower at low-mid range shooting army with very high mobility. (And some very specialist meele units)
Orks should be the high numbers of dice at low-mid range shooting with a not so fast army but with better numbers and meele capabilityes. (Again, not in quality but in number)
Tyranids should be fast and even more meele centrict than Orks, with their Range shooting being more for support, specialized units, living artillery, etc...
And Dark Eldar should have more meele and even more mobility than normal eldar at the cost of shooting power and durability (They lack Wraith constructs and their vehicles shouldn't be as durable as Craftworlders)
Of course each army could have many subfactions like a Catachan pseudo-meele and low-range flamer shooting army! Totally viable and fluffy!
Really DakkaDakka? Really? I've just read several pages of people trying to argue always hitting on 6+ for orks woukd be OP.... Dude! It coukd be 5+ it it wouldn't be OP! Their are some stupid op rules in this game but always hitting on a 6+ would not be one of them! In addition, orks arnt fast? There is an entire cult in ork society built around speed! You don't even have to be an evil sunz to be in the cult of speed! 1 time, an ork warboss drove so fast he flew through a titan and blew it up!!!
Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
Hoping GW is quick with the FAQ once people actually get their hands on it.
techsoldaten wrote: Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
techsoldaten wrote: Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
lolman1c wrote: Really DakkaDakka? Really? I've just read several pages of people trying to argue always hitting on 6+ for orks woukd be OP.... Dude! It coukd be 5+ it it wouldn't be OP! Their are some stupid op rules in this game but always hitting on a 6+ would not be one of them! In addition, orks arnt fast? There is an entire cult in ork society built around speed! You don't even have to be an evil sunz to be in the cult of speed! 1 time, an ork warboss drove so fast he flew through a titan and blew it up!!!
I didn't said Orks aren't fast, I even said that sub-factions could add differents kinds of flavour to the army. But no, Orks aren't Eldar fast. The difference between the movility and how fast they are with Orks vs Tyranids is that Orks can have many units being very fast (Vehicles, Bikers, Kopters, etc...), but their troops are normally slow, in the other hand, Tyranids infantry is one of the fastest of the game, but their big monsters aren't as fast (Normally)
Dark Angels have one of the fastest Imperium armies in Ravenwing. And I don't think nobody is saying Dark Angels are "fast" in general. The same applyes to orks.
techsoldaten wrote: Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
What about blood angels?
AFAIK Blood Angels do not currently have a Codex. Orks are supposed to get theirs in December.
But the Ork Codex should be a good indicator of what to expect for Blood Angels, with insights into rules / Stratagems / faction traits for a melee-oriented army.
So maybe by April there will be 2 armies with Codexes where the majority of players will be dissatisfied.
techsoldaten wrote: Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
What about blood angels?
Depends. Some playars will always be dissatisfied with BA, because what they really wanted was loyalist World Eaters, and the Blood Angels aren't that. Otherwise, if they do a good job, most BA players will be happy with it.
1.when it says 5+ and 6+, That is with modifiers. Ballistic Skills don't get modified by -1 or +1, only the actual die roll does;
a BS 5+ with a -1 does not become a 6+. This makes no sense even with poor wording because how would you get the "+" part. Unless your 6 sided dice have 7 sides this baffles me. A BS 5+ with a -1 means you need an unmodified roll of a 6, not a roll of a 6+ to hit. All of this is in the actual rules; I'm not making up something new.
An unmodified roll of a 6, and a 6+ to hit, are both the exact same thing. The end result is that your gun will only hit the target if you roll a 6.
The + is just the way these things are written. Yeh, it's weird, but it's just the way it is. There are units with a 7+ armour save.
I'm giving up on this thread now though. I've had to deal with way too many people arguing that I'm wrong in my opinion, and then saying that their idea is much better.... and then they go on to write out the exact same idea that I wrote. I swear I'm tearing my hair out here.
Although I will say that Orks already have a hard counter to alaitoc/alpha/ravenguard armies. Get into melee and you ignore their -1 to hits. Having a -second- hard counter where you ignore all to-hit modifiers is just asking too much. Always hitting on a 6 is good enough for Ork shooting.
Btw. I remember warhammer fantasy battle used to have hit modifiers aswell. There, hit rolls could be modified past 6+.
To hit something harder than 6+ you needed to roll 6+ followed by 4+.
This could be further modified to 6+ followed by 5+ and lastly 6+ 6+.
Would this be a way to solve the situation with modifiers in 8th? Sure it would make life a living hell for orks, but at least they would have a chance against modifier stacking enemies, while the foes would not loose any benefits.
Niiru wrote: Get into melee and you ignore their -1 to hits.
This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units. Would you tell a Space Marines player "Just get into melee with your Devastators / Predator / Rifleman Dread and you ignore their -1 to hits" ???
A core rule change is *needed* for the game to work. And it is either to prevent stacking modifiers (very unlikely as it would break the game the other way around) or to say that a 6 always hits.
Also, Orks totally ignoring modifiers is pure wishful thinking.
Yup, the solution is to make it such that a 6 always hits, just like a 1 always fails for saves, or I believe a 6 always wounds.
There should not be armies that are functionally immune in specific phases of the game.
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Gitdakka wrote: Btw. I remember warhammer fantasy battle used to have hit modifiers aswell. There, hit rolls could be modified past 6+.
To hit something harder than 6+ you needed to roll 6+ followed by 4+.
This could be further modified to 6+ followed by 5+ and lastly 6+ 6+.
Would this be a way to solve the situation with modifiers in 8th? Sure it would make life a living hell for orks, but at least they would have a chance against modifier stacking enemies, while the foes would not loose any benefits.
The issue with this is that it makes a lot of extra dice rolling and it would need to be 6+, 2+ for a 7 + needed to hit etc. It would slow the game down considerably against modifier armies.
I can’t believe how many people think an unmodified roll of a 6 is the same thing as a 6+. You are absolutely wrong. Please read the FAQS rules. There is one that says if you get an ability that hits on a 6+ does the ability go off on a roll of a 5 with a +1 modifier and they answered yes. “Whenever the game rules, data sheet rules state a 6+ they are talking about “modifiers”. If you don’t believe me read the FAQS again. Nowhere does it say modifiers impact BS unless like the culexus assassin states the BS and WS change into a 6+. Modifiers affect the actual roll. Orcs will always hit on a 5 with BS 5+, but sometimes that 5 could require a 6 or 7 do to the negative modifier of the roll. Why do you see overwatch hit on 6s, not 6+. It’s this reason. Why can tesla with MWBD prod it’s ability on a roll of a 5 if it goes off on a 6+. This is because “6+” includes modifiers.
Anyone who wants to disagree with me read the FAQs first please.
You're right but everyone understands what he means, making the whole argument, and continuing it, a little bit on the silly side.
I don't think personally that units which can't physically be hit are healthy for the game. And this applies to many other things, like assassins and power fists.
techsoldaten wrote: Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
What about blood angels?
Pretty sure all 20 grey knights players were dissatisfied with the codex.
Marmatag wrote: You're right but everyone understands what he means, making the whole argument, and continuing it, a little bit on the silly side.
I don't think personally that units which can't physically be hit are healthy for the game. And this applies to many other things, like assassins and power fists.
techsoldaten wrote: Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
What about blood angels?
Pretty sure all 20 grey knights players were dissatisfied with the codex.
Grey Knights are indeed smiteful. I've seen them drop 11 mortal wounds turn after turn from long ranges in addition to being elite badasses. They regularly table other elite armies and completely annihilate the daemon primarchs that make everyone fidgety.
They suck vs Guard and that's just about the only reason to be dissatisfied with them in this meta.
Its not an Ork problem - although they are effected by it more than most - its an everyone problem.
I don't think GW will do it so soon after rolling out the codexes but they have been willing to change other things.
But right now, as predicted, Raven Guard are head and shoulders over the other Chapters if you don't take RG. And Chaos is Alpha Legion detachments with other detachments for the soup. And Ad Mech would all by Stygies if it wasn't for Cawl (like RG) being so good you have to be Mars. And Eldar are now all going to be Alaitoc unless there is some peculiar build I am missing.
To my mind it needs to be changed to something like "-1 to hit for shooting outside 12" - or even at all ranges - on the first turn".
I reckon this would still have a place because that first turn alpha damage is often decisive but it would be a trade off in having no bonus later on in the game.
As for the fear it might become second best to something else? Well if that happens so what? Some abilities are clearly inferior to others. Let me know if you meet any non-fluff bunny's running Saim-Hann or Word Bearers.
Arkaine wrote: Grey Knights are indeed smiteful. I've seen them drop 11 mortal wounds turn after turn from long ranges in addition to being elite badasses. They regularly table other elite armies and completely annihilate the daemon primarchs that make everyone fidgety.
They suck vs Guard and that's just about the only reason to be dissatisfied with them in this meta.
This is a hilariously awesome sarcasm post. Well done.
techsoldaten wrote: Odd to be saying this, but I feel like Orks are going to be the only army with a Codex where the majority of players are dissatisfied. And it's mostly because of the issues with shooting.
Hoping GW is quick with the FAQ once people actually get their hands on it.
This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units
It looks to me to be made up of a lot of a) melee units and b) melee units that can also shoot.
I think you need to have a re-examine of the ork index, over 50% of ork units are dedicated to being shooty.
Okay let's see:
Close combat:
meganobz
nobz
kommandos
boyz
stormboyz
shooty:
burnas(but short ranged and ignore BS anyway)
tank busta
flashgit
planes
deff kopta
buggies/traks
battlewagon(though primary purpose is transport so if you don't get within 12" you are doing something wrong)
mek guns/big guns
loota
both:
warbikes
gorga/morkanaut
dreadnoughts
killa kan
stompa
whateva:
grotz
trukk(you take this for transport, not for shooting)
total: 9 units out of 21, one depatable, dedicated to shooting. Others are CC or CC with shooty elements.
I tend to be in the "6s always hit for everyone, not just Orks" camp. I can see maybe a Stratagem or a specific unit like Flash Gitz that ignores penalties to hit, but I think it would be a shame to totally negate one of the important characteristics of an army like Alpha Legion or Raven Guard (or probably Blood Axes, when we get our codex).
This is getting old after a while you know ? Half the Ork army is made of shooty units
It looks to me to be made up of a lot of a) melee units and b) melee units that can also shoot.
I think you need to have a re-examine of the ork index, over 50% of ork units are dedicated to being shooty.
Okay let's see:
Spoiler:
Close combat:
meganobz
nobz
kommandos
boyz
stormboyz
shooty:
burnas(but short ranged and ignore BS anyway)
tank busta
flashgit
planes
deff kopta
buggies/traks
battlewagon(though primary purpose is transport so if you don't get within 12" you are doing something wrong)
mek guns/big guns
loota
both:
warbikes
gorga/morkanaut
dreadnoughts
killa kan
stompa
whateva:
grotz
trukk(you take this for transport, not for shooting)
total: 9 units out of 21, one depatable, dedicated to shooting. Others are CC or CC with shooty elements.
While some units are definitely shooty and some are definitely choppy, the amount of options available to many units puts a lot more in the "both" category than I think you give them credit for. Also, the Ork Boy and Nob profiles all lend themselves to being good in assault and our vehicles are mostly above average in assault too, so it could be said that the large majority of Ork shooty units are actually dual-purpose. The problem is that, like Space Marine Devestators, while on a model-to-model basis they are way better than a Guardsman in close combat, it is a horrible waste of points to be using Lootas or Flash Gitz to fight in melee. (I know you didn't make that exact argument tneva82, I've just seen it many other places.)
I would move many of your close combat units towards the "both" category, but on the other hand I would also move some units out of "shooty" and into "both".
Also, you condense many units that are listed individually into being the same unit, which I don't think is necessarily unfair but can also effect how people are counting. Like, I can see why you would list all the Ork flyers as one unit, but on the other hand they are listed separetely, have somewhat different jobs and means of going about those jobs, and would count as four shooty units if counted separately.
I think about half the Ork units could be considered "both" but many of these are often run as close combat due to shooting options being overcosted. Standard Nobz are more close combat oriented, but if a person starts adding kustom and kombi shootas it becomes more of a "both" unit and if every nob has a kombi-rokkit and ammo runt I think it would count as a shooty unit. A lot of this is subjective, though. It would probably would be better to have more of a one through five ranking, with one being pure close combat, five being pure shooting and three being pretty evenly balanced, but that would be going pretty deep down the rabbit hole for what is probably a minor point in this discussion.
Yeah, and some of them (planes, artillery, buggies) gather several different units. We've actually got 4 planes, 7 different pieces of artillery and 2 buggies/wartrakks.
Shooty ork units can easily be 75% of the codex actually.
'umie
Heavy bolter 8, twin 14
Heavy flamer 17, twin 30
This shows that orks are basically the only faction who pays more for twin shooters despite benefiting the least from them. If this doesn't highlight that Orks have been thrown under the buss then I don't know what will. How dare any faction even suggest Ork shooting is okay the way it is! How dare gw forcing us to only be one type of army! If people even knew a single thing about orks they would know a hell of a lot of orks love to shoot and the index and past codex clearly demonstrates this with the large number of units that are mainly for shooting. Gw has flattened us into a 1 dimensional army so mu h in this index that the entire player base has forgotten about past editions and just presumes orks are only cc.
Blackie wrote: Yeah, and some of them (planes, artillery, buggies) gather several different units. We've actually got 4 planes, 7 different pieces of artillery and 2 buggies/wartrakks.
Shooty ork units can easily be 75% of the codex actually.
That's like saying nob with big choppa is different h2h entry to nob with power klaw though.
Not exactly. Wartrakks and buggies have different profiles, not only weapons, mek gunz and big gunz also have different profiles. Planes have the same stats but they all have their own profile, which means they're considered different units by GW.
But in a some way yeah, you're right, I was talking about all the options available. Choppy nobz can have different loadout but if you think about all the possible combinations available in the codex you'll realize that there are way more shooty options than choppy ones.
There's a core rule flaw in this game and it's regarding the hit modifiers. Sure, the re-roll sequence is also completely messed up, but overheating plasmas on 1, 2, 3 and not being able to trigger your Tempestus doctrine since you can never get a 6, is ridiculous. But that's just the start. You can make units completely impervious to shooting. They cannot be hit at all, since if you can't hit on a 6, you can't hit at all. It's Pete Haines' Siren again. Cast a spell or stack some abilities and a unit becomes impervious to shooting. Who cares about 2++ or re-rollable invulnerable saves when you make make your army or at least the most important parts unhittable.
BoomWolf wrote: Utterly unhittable under highly spesific conditions.
Spesific units, buffed by a specific psychic power (that you can only try once), with spesific sub faction, at 12 or further away.
There are many strings attached and points of failure along the way, some can be actively triggered by the opponent.
If we look of example at orks.
Stormboys and wierdboys both throw serius spanners into the machine.
Also, auto hitting weapons available to practically every army, and they care not for BS penalty shenanigans.
Or you know Eldar Rangers in a particular faction, automatically, Tzeentch Alpha Legion Oblits with the Changling etc. Sure there are answers orks can always assault. The issue is these penalties and existence of unit that cannot be hit in shooting makes ork shooting units bad choices and limits the options that are viable in the army.
I like that GW made Boyz good and that Green Tide is viable. I'd like to play Orks in other ways, which currently wouldn't work very well, but I'm optimistic that GW will fix many of the problems when they release the Ork Codex.
BoomWolf wrote: Utterly unhittable under highly spesific conditions.
Spesific units, buffed by a specific psychic power (that you can only try once), with spesific sub faction, at 12 or further away.
There are many strings attached and points of failure along the way, some can be actively triggered by the opponent.
If we look of example at orks.
Stormboys and wierdboys both throw serius spanners into the machine.
Also, auto hitting weapons available to practically every army, and they care not for BS penalty shenanigans.
Or you know Eldar Rangers in a particular faction, automatically, Tzeentch Alpha Legion Oblits with the Changling etc. Sure there are answers orks can always assault. The issue is these penalties and existence of unit that cannot be hit in shooting makes ork shooting units bad choices and limits the options that are viable in the army.
Especially when you have spent a fortune on lootas, rockets and big shootas and suddenly they're like "nope, use close combat weaoons... all that stuff we sold is useless and over priced!"
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Blackie wrote: Not exactly. Wartrakks and buggies have different profiles, not only weapons, mek gunz and big gunz also have different profiles. Planes have the same stats but they all have their own profile, which means they're considered different units by GW.
But in a some way yeah, you're right, I was talking about all the options available. Choppy nobz can have different loadout but if you think about all the possible combinations available in the codex you'll realize that there are way more shooty options than choppy ones.
I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.
I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.
But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.
As others have said the problem with Orks shooting are the costs of the guns. Especially twin linked Ork guns which often are more than the cost of two of said gun- most factions with good BS pay only two times the cost, and in some cases less (I'm looking at you quad heavy bolters)
Then again a lot if the close combat options need to drop in cost too.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.
They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.
It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.
They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.
It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.
They "thrived" against invisible based armies because they had the smallest reduction (50%) of any army in shooting, while having some of the highest amount of shots. Every other army also hit on 6s against invisiblity. This is a large difference between now, when other armies have more shots, and suffer smaller reductions in effectiveness.
For "snap shooting" orks went from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% reduction in output. Marines went from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/6th a 75% reduction in output.
Now with -1 orks go from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% in reduction. Marines go from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2 a 25 % reduction.
Against a -2 orks are at a 100% reduction, marines at a 50%
If we look at 2 base units at ~ same cost
10 Tacticals and
27 Shoota boyz
10 tacticals at -1 to hit at 12" (lets say this doesn't negate the -1 to hit in this case) = 20 shots Normal:13 hits. -1: 10 Hits
27 Shoota boyz = 54 shots Normal : 18 hits. -1: 9 hits
I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.
But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.
Under this thinking you could argue most gaurd stuff wouldn't be shooty when it clearly is. It's dangerous to think this was because it enforces an idea that units that are not as effective than other more dedicated units should cost more.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.
They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.
It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.
They "thrived" against invisible based armies because they had the smallest reduction (50%) of any army in shooting, while having some of the highest amount of shots. Every other army also hit on 6s against invisiblity. This is a large difference between now, when other armies have more shots, and suffer smaller reductions in effectiveness.
For "snap shooting" orks went from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% reduction in output. Marines went from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/6th a 75% reduction in output.
Now with -1 orks go from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% in reduction. Marines go from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2 a 25 % reduction.
Against a -2 orks are at a 100% reduction, marines at a 50%
If we look at 2 base units at ~ same cost
10 Tacticals and
27 Shoota boyz
10 tacticals at -1 to hit at 12" (lets say this doesn't negate the -1 to hit in this case) = 20 shots Normal:13 hits. -1: 10 Hits
27 Shoota boyz = 54 shots Normal : 18 hits. -1: 9 hits
I honestly can't belive people are genuinely arguing that the -1 and -2 are not a problem to orks.... this is what gw has created! People thinking orks should just be a shooting range for their models rather than a valid and threatening opponent! It doesn't matter how many times we post this above maths they still do not understand that 100% chance to miss on 100s of pts worth of shooting units is bad!
I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.
But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.
It's a pretty subjective thing to count but orks have around 14 mostly dedicated shooty units out of ~45 - means 1/3 of the book is purely shooty. Space marines have around 25 mostly dedicated shooty units out of ~80 - that's also around 1/3 of the book. Means marines are a mellee army hence should also suck at shooting? Eldar have ~23 dedicated shooty units out of ~47 total. That's only 50% shooty units in the book.
Od arguement. What people here are trying to say is that if the unit IS dedicated to shooting, it should be good at it. Not just good compared to a dedicated mellee unit. But at least around as good as other dedicated shooty units. Otherwise what's the point? Justifying ork lootas being unable to hit by "well, most of the codex is mellee-oriented - means all orks should suck at shooting..." than why the hell do we have to pay 17 ppm for a unit that sucks at it's job? In fact it's absolutely unable to perform it.
Martel732 wrote: Orks should be unaffected by shooting modifiers because they aren't aiming anyway.
This. This is absolutely accurate and a great solution.
Take a look at the old Khemri army book for inspiration. Their skeleton archers were bad shots with a BS of 2. So how do you sell these guys to the gaming community? You will have to introduce a special rule for them. I guess it was some kind of Blessing from a Goddess that enabled them to always hit on 5+ which could never be modified.
With to hit modifiers introduced to the game, Orks need something similar. Another option would be to go back to 2nd and give Orks BS 3 (4+ to hit).
I would say a nob with a bigshoota or kustom shoota is a shooty option. Hell orks with shootas are the shooty options! It's like saying an marine with a bolta plays the same style of game than a marine with a chainsword and pistol.
But are those _dedicated_ shooting units rather than mix of CC&shooting? Claim was over half the units in ork codex are dedicated shooting units. That mean no usability in CC. Just having guns in unit does not make you dedicated shooting unit.
Under this thinking you could argue most gaurd stuff wouldn't be shooty when it clearly is. It's dangerous to think this was because it enforces an idea that units that are not as effective than other more dedicated units should cost more.
Niiru wrote: While I agree that the "spray and pray" rule of Orks are never affected by hit modifiers is fluffy, I really don't think it will ever happen, as it would make traits such as Alaitoc and Ravenguard and Alpha legion completely worthless.
Not really. Going from 5+ to hit to 6+ to hit is a 50% reduction in hits. That's massively powerful. The -1 to hit actually hits Orks the hardest, far more than it hits guard or marines or eldar.
They shouldn't allow this 50% reduction in hits to ever become a 100% reduction in hits. They have done so. This is bad game design.
It's a 50% reduction, but the real math here is that they go from hitting 1/3 of the time to only 1/6 of the time, which would not have been an issue last edition. After all, vs Invisibility based armies is one of the few times you can say Orks thrived, but nobody played them so oh well. Assuming appropriate costs in the first place (as most of the index armies are weirdly priced for various equipment) this is not an issue.
They "thrived" against invisible based armies because they had the smallest reduction (50%) of any army in shooting, while having some of the highest amount of shots. Every other army also hit on 6s against invisiblity. This is a large difference between now, when other armies have more shots, and suffer smaller reductions in effectiveness.
For "snap shooting" orks went from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% reduction in output. Marines went from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/6th a 75% reduction in output.
Now with -1 orks go from hitting 1/3rd to hitting 1/6th a 50% in reduction. Marines go from hitting 2/3 to hitting 1/2 a 25 % reduction.
Against a -2 orks are at a 100% reduction, marines at a 50%
If we look at 2 base units at ~ same cost
10 Tacticals and
27 Shoota boyz
10 tacticals at -1 to hit at 12" (lets say this doesn't negate the -1 to hit in this case) = 20 shots Normal:13 hits. -1: 10 Hits
27 Shoota boyz = 54 shots Normal : 18 hits. -1: 9 hits
I honestly can't belive people are genuinely arguing that the -1 and -2 are not a problem to orks.... this is what gw has created! People thinking orks should just be a shooting range for their models rather than a valid and threatening opponent! It doesn't matter how many times we post this above maths they still do not understand that 100% chance to miss on 100s of pts worth of shooting units is bad!
I'm arguing that -1 is not a big deal. I'll agree with -2 sucking hard, but -1 is not.
You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!
Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....
In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).
No to the cap at 5+ but have the cap at 6+.... Orks are a CC army. Orks can easily get the first turn charge in and now want an improvement on shooting to account for other armies fluff or magic? Orks have never been a shooting army to begin with. Cap it at 6+ to be all around fair for those missile guy units or what have you, so you always have a chance of hitting a unit that has a special rule in effect. Don’t cap it at 5+ when thats normally what is needed to hit... That negates so many rules other armies play if you simply saying nope, oh and im awesome in CC and likely going to get first turn charge too....
So game wide not just for Orks, cap at 6+ so there’s that chance of a lucky bullet hit.
I’ve literally seen good guard and Space Marine players almost tabled by first turn Ork charges before. Capping at a 5+ is unfair IMHO, to codex specific rules.
usmcmidn wrote: No to the cap at 5+ but have the cap at 6+.... Orks are a CC army. Orks can easily get the first turn charge in and now want an improvement on shooting to account for other armies fluff or magic? Orks have never been a shooting army to begin with. Cap it at 6+ to be all around fair for those missile guy units or what have you, so you always have a chance of hitting a unit that has a special rule in effect. Don’t cap it at 5+ when thats normally what is needed to hit... That negates so many rules other armies play if you simply saying nope, oh and im awesome in CC and likely going to get first turn charge too....
So game wide not just for Orks, cap at 6+ so there’s that chance of a lucky bullet hit.
I’ve literally seen good guard and Space Marine players almost tabled by first turn Ork charges before. Capping at a 5+ is unfair IMHO, to codex specific rules.
Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.
usmcmidn wrote: No to the cap at 5+ but have the cap at 6+.... Orks are a CC army. Orks can easily get the first turn charge in and now want an improvement on shooting to account for other armies fluff or magic? Orks have never been a shooting army to begin with. Cap it at 6+ to be all around fair for those missile guy units or what have you, so you always have a chance of hitting a unit that has a special rule in effect. Don’t cap it at 5+ when thats normally what is needed to hit... That negates so many rules other armies play if you simply saying nope, oh and im awesome in CC and likely going to get first turn charge too....
So game wide not just for Orks, cap at 6+ so there’s that chance of a lucky bullet hit.
I’ve literally seen good guard and Space Marine players almost tabled by first turn Ork charges before. Capping at a 5+ is unfair IMHO, to codex specific rules.
Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.
Again, this is why I feel crazy! Have I being transmitted to another dimension where orks have only ever done cc? This is how damaging this edition have been to orks... people have outright changed history in their heads to the point where ork players have to explain to them that ork shooting armies are a thing! And we are not taking about boyz! Keep boyz as they are, a slugga boy shoukd always be a 5+ to hit and can't fire when advance (as he has a pistol not a assault weapon) but Lootas! The Orks who love shooting more than anything in the world? Nobody even heard of them? Geuss because my boyz are good at cc (a flawed system in itself) my £50 I spent on Lootas doesn't mean anything... just make the unit useless... wouldn't want orks to shoot would we? (Btw because they have a 6+ save, basically useless in combat and have a pretty good gun why would you ever put themmon the front? Also with heavy weapons and bs 5+ you even move them and they now can't fire at certain armies. This means that hundreds of points are actually wasted! But no... it's okay because you might have brought hundreds of boys for a turn 1 charge).
lolman1c wrote: You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!
Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....
In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).
And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?
hobojebus wrote: Orks have always been a cc army in over twenty years of gaming I've never once seen any ork player myself included focus on shooting.
They are not a gun line army.
Sounds like a bland meta. I've fielded an ork shooters in 3rd, 5th, and 6th to pleasing results. With so many cool shooting units, how can you pigeon hole the entire army as cc? No one's saying orks are marksmen, but we used to be able to throw tons of dice and/or blasts that made up for our poor hit chance.
lolman1c wrote: You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!
Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....
In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).
And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?
Every race should have viable cc and shooty builds. It's how they go about doing it that lends diversity.
lolman1c wrote: You actually have armies that can reroll all hits, advance and fire all their weapons and have a 5+ FNP but 5+ always hit is too much? We are literally paying double for weapons for things that have a 1 in 6 chance to hit while orther armies pay less for a 25% chance to hit! Does nobody hear themselves? I seriously feel like I'm insane!
Also -1 to hit is terrible to Orks for the pure reason we already loose -1 when we advance! So now faster armies can advance and fire while our 5" movement models can't? Oh okay... geuss it's just not a big deal we cannot even fire! I'm paying a stupid amount for rockets and big shootas that will never even be fired! By the time I have advanced to be within 12" I'll be 6 to hit and then charge in....
In addition, if gw wanted us to be more cc then why is stuff like our mega nobz stupidly expensive but get almost none of the same benefits as terminators? No deepstrike, no invulns, 4" movement! The movement alone and taking up double space adds the additional 82pt truck... also if you want to take more than three then geuss you have to shell out 150+ pts on battlewagon! To be as effective as a squad of terminators you're looking at 4-500pts for 1 squad! It's insane! You get like 1 extra wound on each model but with multiple wound weapons and no invulns (plus the 1-2 turns of getting there) you're looking at likely worse survival rates. (Not sure if a weirdboy can jump them or not as don't have index with me but even so that's still 3-400 pts worth just on one unit... at yhat point your enemy got themselves 10 terminators who deepstrike and charged your squad).
And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?
You're right, not every army has to be great at shooting. Khorne daemons are not good at shooting but how many dedicated shooty units do they have? Tau and AM suck in close combat, but how many melee units do they have? Only a few ones.
Since orks have tons of shooty units and wargear, 100% fluffy, making all of them crap is something that should be fixed. Considering shooting just an addition for the orks means ignoring the majority of the codex, which is absurd.
No one wants orks to outshoot AM, but asking for a few more options in order to play something different from the green tide seems rightful to me. An ork big mek themed army more oriented in shooting than melee should be viable, not as effective as the most powerful gun lines, but average at leasts. A few shooty units that support the choppy ones that actually do something should be rightful, don't you think? Otherwise orks will be forced to use 10% of the codex and only a single built with just a little variants.
Also if anyone knew anything about the history of the game you would know Orks for the first few editions had the same BS as marines.... -_- It wasn't until an article one of the devs made about wanting a zulu type of mission that orks changed thei BS.
hobojebus wrote:Orks have always been a cc army in over twenty years of gaming I've never once seen any ork player myself included focus on shooting.
They are not a gun line army.
So, do you actually own a codex? Like, of any edition? I'm just wondering about what you have been doing with shoota boyz, lootaz, tank bustaz, flash gits, looted wagons, big gunz and the SAG during the last 20 years.
tneva82 wrote:And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?
We don't want to outshoot IG. We just want to have the same amount of hits for the same points with our inferior weapons, which all have less AP, range and/or strength than the imperial equivalents. Thank you.
usmcmidn wrote: From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is
you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...
Have a better armor save...
And points reduction?
While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?
Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...
We want orks to be able to hit. The 5+ is just an idea. Besides, it doesn't seem sporting to have 1 faction get it's entire shooting phase shut down by some army trait.
The only better armour save we want is the option to upgrade to 'eavy armour, which we had in every edition but this one.
Yes points reductions. We pay more, and get less out of it than almost every other faction for weapons.
We're nerfed into the ground. What can we give up?
Therion wrote: . You can make units completely impervious to shooting. They cannot be hit at all, since if you can't hit on a 6, you can't hit at all. It's Pete Haines' Siren again. Cast a spell or stack some abilities and a unit becomes impervious to shooting.
It's messed up.
That's not entirely accurate. Those same units can still be hit by flamer type weapons. It encourages those sorts of things to have a place in an army list.
I realize boys won't be hitting them at -2 to hit but there are other units ant do hit, Grots and things Grot related. This is what they are for.
I'm hoping things improve a little when the Codex comes out but don't expect too much.
I'm hoping for more area buffs for thing like shooting either from spells or an aura buff from a Mek of Big mek. I don't really even expect that because to m from GW's point of view it would seem that if they sell something that already does what ever it is we want another unit to do, we probably wont get it. Best case, a price drop on mek guns.
I know my collection a fairly large so I have a bit of everything. Burna boys and Mek guns and Kannons have been putting in most all of my shooting work. My Kans are using KMB's, which as it turns out, no longer over hear.
I haven't tried any of the jets or bombers yet so I have no reall idea if they are any good but if I recall the dakka jet can hit on BS4+, or 6's in some cases. So that could be good.
Lastly, That Big Trakk with suppa scorcha is another vehicle I am planning to add with that 24" no roll to hitness.
I have to see what the points for it are, maybe two of them...
usmcmidn wrote: From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is
you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...
Have a better armor save...
And points reduction?
While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?
Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...
Yeah it sounds like that. Even with these buffs orks would be mid tiers at most. To be honest competitive orks are currently very boring to play and to play against thanks to the green tide style. Buffing other units means more variety and games that are surely more entertaining and balanced.
I wouldn't like a fixed 5+ for shooting, I'd prefer the (huge) points reductions. Lots of orks units should be 50% cheaper with the current stats to be average, not overpowered.
Orks close combat ability is overrated, they're not superstars in combat. They basically have tons of S4 attacks with no AP, orks should be way better in CC. But pks are way overcosted which means the units that should be great in combat are overpriced. You currently see more warbosses out of combat the entire game just there to give their LD buff to boyz than warbosses that smash enemies in melee, and that is absurd.
It seriously just sounds like a bunch of ivory tower panzees looking at the green skins below and being like "Shall we throw them a bone? No, we cannot let these filthy animals have any chance".
usmcmidn wrote: From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is
you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...
Have a better armor save...
And points reduction?
While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?
Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...
Yeah it sounds like that. Even with these buffs orks would be mid tiers at most. To be honest competitive orks are currently very boring to play and to play against thanks to the green tide style. Buffing other units means more variety and games that are surely more entertaining and balanced.
I wouldn't like a fixed 5+ for shooting, I'd prefer the (huge) points reductions. Lots of orks units should be 50% cheaper with the current stats to be average, not overpowered.
Orks close combat ability is overrated, they're not superstars in combat. They basically have tons of S4 attacks with no AP, orks should be way better in CC. But pks are way overcosted which means the units that should be great in combat are overpriced. You currently see more warbosses out of combat the entire game just there to give their LD buff to boyz than warbosses that smash enemies in melee, and that is absurd.
Exsactly this! The only cc unit we have that is worth taking is boyz and stormboyz and even then we have to throw in a bunch of other hws and elites to buff them to be competitive. Not to mention a smart player would block their shooting units with good bubble wrap like rhinos or conscripts. When we charge them they just pull back or blow up and the boyz get mowed down by the troops behind.
I have spent all this money on models that apparently shouldn't exist according to these people.
Also no idea who said about Kustom Blasters no longer getting hot but we do! On a roll of a 1 we take a mortal wound. We don't even get a chance to pick if we want to make them stronger for a risk... they just take a mortal wound on a 1. So with -1 to hit most of our units have the same chance to hit themselves than hit the enemy!
malcontent999 wrote: Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.
+1 to this. In fact, there were many editions where you could create a competitive shooty Ork army but could not create a competitive melee Ork army.
malcontent999 wrote: Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.
+1 to this. In fact, there were many editions where you could create a competitive shooty Ork army but could not create a competitive melee Ork army.
This is why i am confused with all these players coming in saying "well actually orks have always been cc". I know that ork shooty armies are and was a thing until this edition!
It's like when the Imperium first discovered Ork Kommandos existed; the thought that orks could be good at anything other than just charging straight forward was pure heresy.
People want Orks to be one dimensional - so facing them is like shooting fish in a barrel. [That said, people seem to want every army that isn't theirs to be one dimensional, so that's a while 'nother issue...]
Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.
You can certainly make a semi-competetive shooty ork army in this edition. When using power-levels you can make an imba broken OP shooty list.
I've tried but even back before the codex the points on everything other than mek gunz were wasted (and mek gunz cost £28 per gun so I never got any). The Morkanaut has less shooting and attacks than the Gorkanaut but is more expensive with the kff at 370pts, 15 lootas is above 250 pts (remember, against a kot of armies you just move these and they can't even fire)... And with their 6 up save at 250pts you want to put them in cover or spend another 150pts on a wagon just to help them survive so not the best in terms of flexibility and tactical use. So not only have we just spent 250+pts on a stationary paper thin unit that only needs a few wounds to die to moral (on a unit that in lore is basically the average infintry for one klan) but for 250pts your enemy has got himself double the requirements to turn 1 kill your 250pts. It's hard to express how expensive a full squad is for a strength 4 unit that has a 6 up save and 1 wound and BS 5+ while holding a heavy weapon. And that's not even going into the fact it's £15 for 4 of them.
tneva82 wrote:And why every army has to be great at shooting? Why orks need to be able to outshoot IG? What's wrong with having h2h armies where shooting is just useful addition? Why every army has to be same(shooty)?
We don't want to outshoot IG. We just want to have the same amount of hits for the same points with our inferior weapons, which all have less AP, range and/or strength than the imperial equivalents. Thank you.
This. If a 40k army isn't focused on shooting, it should have fewer options, not less point efficiency. Should kroot be just as inefficient per model? If the Tau were written like orks, kroot would cost 12 points each, not 6. Written like orks, Spacewolves would pay 7 points per bolter instead of zero.
usmcmidn wrote: From the last couple posts I have read... what I’ve gathered from is
you want Orks to always hit 5+ shooting no matter codex or psychic special rules...
Have a better armor save...
And points reduction?
While not nerfing them in CC, stats, or abilities?
Sounds fair, balanced, and a fun army to play against...
Yeah, because obviously orks are already shooting everybody off the table with no chance to retaliate. Giving them any boost would make them dominate everything. No wait, we are paying 72 or 83 points for models that have no other role than shooting rokkits that will hit every other turn. Meanwhile, the space marines field and entire tactical squad that can shoot stuff from cover across the battlefield with a missile launcher for 90 with better saves, better ballistic skill, an alternative fire mode, additional shots, objective secured and - gasp - better close combat ability.
No one wants boyz, kommandoz or stormboyz to get better so stop wetting your MK X power armor.
So yes, we want to always hit on 5+ shooting because orks simply cannot shoot any Alaitoc skimmer, flyers or rangers. We cannot ever shoot raven guard storm ravens which are a hard counter to most of our army. We cannot ever shoot a flyer buffed by Tigurius, a Ghostkeel or tons of other things. But gretchin! Yeah, we can field kanz that actually have good weapons and BS4+, but the only ones that actually stand a chance of killing vehicles are 63 points a piece. So hitting on sixes, with S8 and AP-2 against T7 vehicles means we just need to field 3402 points of rokkit kanz to kill a flyer with additional -1 hit buff of any sort and 5103 points of kanz to kill one wave serpent on average per turn. No, wait, there is one unit more efficient at killing those -2 hit models, which are big gun kannons. For just 2187 points of kannons you can savely expect to down one Alaitoc wave serpent per turn. Let's hope those Alaitoc fellows don't shoot back!
And yes, we want better survivability on our expensive models. Almost every army has some way to kill a ton of boyz. And they need to, 120 boyz marching at them while another 30 jump into their back is really dangerous and should not turn into an auto-loss for anybody. However, when getting shot tank bustaz, burnaz, lootaz or flash gits are in no way more survivable than those 6 points boyz. There is no reason to field units that cost 200+ points that will die twice or even three times as fast as less points invested in boyz which are already one of the most easily killed models in the game.
Third, yes we need point drops. Almost everything in our codex costs way more than equivalent models from other codices, without being better. Without weird boyz being able to smite and boyz being so deadly in combat (both due to changes in the general rules) the ork army would not have any good army compositions at all.
CC stats also don't matter when you are carrying an autocannon. You want to shoot that autocannon, not hit people in the head with it.
Yeah, orks have this funny thing that, their best units: Boyz, Stormboyz, and the green tide lists, is actually balanced with most of the rest of the game. So you just need to make everything at least balanced with boyz and green tide, and then you have a Competitive Ork Codex full of options without being OP.
Even with the free bonuses the green tide list is gonna receive: Klan traits, Warlords traits, stratagems, etc... it will be still pretty balanced.
And yes, always hitting on a 6+ would be good. Is the same phylosophy as everything wounding on a 6. You don't want units that literally can't hit or wound your enemy.
And I agree that Orks have many things that are overpriced, but I think the best solution is, instead of just making them cheaper, is making them cheaper but not as cheaper as the first option suggest, and improve their rules, to make them worthwhile and more effective. This way you have the "Orks are crappy but they are many so they balance out" feeling of the army without the "you need 4000€ of ork models to have a 2000p army" problem.
I don't expect a Battlewagong to costs the same points as Land Raider, even when they have only a 8€ difference (53€ BW vs 61€ LD ), being the LD 15% more expensive than the BW. But I don't want a Battlewagong to costs half the points of a Land Raider, or even less. Make it something like 70-75% the points, but made him worthwhile at least.
I've tried but even back before the codex the points on everything other than mek gunz were wasted (and mek gunz cost £28 per gun so I never got any). The Morkanaut has less shooting and attacks than the Gorkanaut but is more expensive with the kff at 370pts, 15 lootas is above 250 pts (remember, against a kot of armies you just move these and they can't even fire)... And with their 6 up save at 250pts you want to put them in cover or spend another 150pts on a wagon just to help them survive so not the best in terms of flexibility and tactical use. So not only have we just spent 250+pts on a stationary paper thin unit that only needs a few wounds to die to moral (on a unit that in lore is basically the average infintry for one klan) but for 250pts your enemy has got himself double the requirements to turn 1 kill your 250pts. It's hard to express how expensive a full squad is for a strength 4 unit that has a 6 up save and 1 wound and BS 5+ while holding a heavy weapon. And that's not even going into the fact it's £15 for 4 of them.
Both the morkanaut and the gorkanaut are close-combat oriented with very little shooting to speak of. And of the two the morkanaut is by far the worse option. And lootas are just not competitive right now. They are too fragile on foot and too expensive in a transport/bunker. But none of this has anything to do with negative hit-modifiers.
Our best shooting units are Kans, min-squad warbikers and shoota-boyz. Tankbustas are great also, but only in a mechanized or squig list.
Galas wrote: Yeah, orks have this funny thing that, their best units: Boyz, Stormboyz, and the green tide lists, is actually balanced with most of the rest of the game. So you just need to make everything at least balanced with boyz and green tide, and then you have a Competitive Ork Codex full of options without being OP.
Even with the free bonuses the green tide list is gonna receive: Klan traits, Warlords traits, stratagems, etc... it will be still pretty balanced.
And yes, always hitting on a 6+ would be good. Is the same phylosophy as everything wounding on a 6. You don't want units that literally can't hit or wound your enemy.
And I agree that Orks have many things that are overpriced, but I think the best solution is, instead of just making them cheaper, is making them cheaper but not as cheaper as the first option suggest, and improve their rules, to make them worthwhile and more effective. This way you have the "Orks are crappy but they are many so they balance out" feeling of the army without the "you need 4000€ of ork models to have a 2000p army" problem.
Yep. As far as I know, there is no buff that forces -2 to weapon skill, is there? How many -1 to hit rules are there for assaults? If GW cared about balance, there would be plenty of -2 to hit in cc combos. Where are they?
Could you imagine Tau being forced to roll a 7 to hit in combat?
Nope. Neither can I. That privilege is reserved for orks, and orks alone.
Making every 6 a hit, ignoring modifiers, would actually benefit orks the best.
Theres a good bunch of -2 out there, but for orks that would be only a -1, when others armies would have the full -2 like Imperial Guard or Tau, hitting on 6's. A -3 would make marines hit on a 6, when orks will hit on a 6 too, but marines pay for their 3+ BS.
Galas wrote: Yeah, orks have this funny thing that, their best units: Boyz, Stormboyz, and the green tide lists, is actually balanced with most of the rest of the game. So you just need to make everything at least balanced with boyz and green tide, and then you have a Competitive Ork Codex full of options without being OP.
Even with the free bonuses the green tide list is gonna receive: Klan traits, Warlords traits, stratagems, etc... it will be still pretty balanced.
And yes, always hitting on a 6+ would be good. Is the same phylosophy as everything wounding on a 6. You don't want units that literally can't hit or wound your enemy.
And I agree that Orks have many things that are overpriced, but I think the best solution is, instead of just making them cheaper, is making them cheaper but not as cheaper as the first option suggest, and improve their rules, to make them worthwhile and more effective. This way you have the "Orks are crappy but they are many so they balance out" feeling of the army without the "you need 4000€ of ork models to have a 2000p army" problem.
Yep. As far as I know, there is no buff that forces -2 to weapon skill, is there? How many -1 to hit rules are there for assaults? If GW cared about balance, there would be plenty of -2 to hit in cc combos. Where are they?
Could you imagine Tau being forced to roll a 7 to hit in combat?
Nope. Neither can I. That privilege is reserved for orks, and orks alone.
That is a strange way of looking at it. A negative modifier in close combat would be absolutely harmless to Tau, mostly harmless to IG, but be very disadvantageous to Orks, and severely crippling to Tyranids.
The reverse is true for negative modifiers to shooting. -2 to hit in the shooting phase would absolutely cripple IG or Tau whereas Orks and Nids would probably do alright under such circumstances. Genestealers, Nobs, Sluggaboyz, Gorkanauts and Hormagaunts would be largely unaffected.
malcontent999 wrote: Don't know when you started playing, but you could make at least a semi-competative shoot ork army in practically every edition but this one.
+1 to this. In fact, there were many editions where you could create a competitive shooty Ork army but could not create a competitive melee Ork army.
This is why i am confused with all these players coming in saying "well actually orks have always been cc". I know that ork shooty armies are and was a thing until this edition!
The majority of people on this board never witnessed 2nd Orks which were quite shooty. But from 3rd onwards GW retconned the Orks into green Tyranids with BS 2 and A 2. So a ranged -2 to hit modifier makes the enemy invulnerable to Ork guns? That´s just bad game design. Orks need a special rule with a fixed 5+ (6+ is too bad) which can´t be modified or a BS (4+). If you go with the latter option, you might as well tone down their close combat prowess. According to this change, the Tyranids would have then a right to exist in 40K without being surpassed by the Greenskins in a brawl.
It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.
As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.
As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. He also was pumping a ton of shooting attacks on me pretty well despite my Raven Guard special rule, pretty effectively. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.
usmcmidn wrote: It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.
As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.
As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.
Its almost like Orks could potentially shoot better in ONE specific circumstance - when the enemy is stacking -1/-2/-3 to hit modifiers. Outside of that, Orks are worse at shooting - throw them a bone for once in their life.
Regarding 5+ save; every guardsman, who is far cheaper and shootier, has a 5+ save - it's not like we're talking about elite units here. I'm not saying Orks should have 5+; but I agree they should have options for 'Ard Boyz (4+). Sure, Orks are better in melee, but Guardsman can come real close with a Priest/Catachan character.
Also... the only reason you faced a 200+ ork list at 2000 points is because... it's literally the only way to have a decent change with the current Xenos Index - Orks can't shoot, can't have armor, can't have vehicles, can't have anything - except Boyz; which means, you get as many as you can and hope you don't get shot off the table before/once you reach the enemies lines.
There's no other way to play them, and that's the problem. Green Tide should be a viable playstyle - but not the only one.
usmcmidn wrote: It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.
As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.
As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.
A fixed 5+ to hit roll sounds not foolish at all. Orks are supposed to be there for comedic relief and are therefore not able to hit a barn door at point blank range. To increase the odds in their favour they just use a lot of Dakka. Think of it as a unique perk that separates the Greenskins from the rest of the other factions. It is the games designers´ job to balance this all out but apparently they have decided to give the Orks the middle finger which is not a novelty. Another orky staple is bad saves for their units but a lot of wounds for their big stuff like Stompas and Battlewagons.
usmcmidn wrote: It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.
As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.
As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.
A fixed 5+ to hit roll sounds not foolish at all. Orks are supposed to be there for comedic relief and are therefore not able to hit a barn door at point blank range. To increase the odds in their favour they just use a lot of Dakka. Think of it as a unique perk that separates the Greenskins from the rest of the other factions. It is the games designers´ job to balance this all out but apparently they have decided to give the Orks the middle finger which is not a novelty. Another orky staple is bad saves for their units but a lot of wounds for their big stuff like Stompas and Battlewagons.
It's absolutely foolish for balance reasons. I don't mind a cap of 6+ to hit, but the 5+ is silly.
usmcmidn wrote: It’s going to be funny to see a very well trained Space Marine or trained guardsman hitting on a 6+ but Orks still hitting on their 5+ for shooting.... the 5+ is a bit silly to never ever have a modifier impact your ballistic skill. I get the it’s random but If I take cover from random shooting or wear some type of cloak that makes me harder to see I’m still going to have a better chance of not getting hit randomly then if I was just sitting in the open. It sounds so foolish to me that Orks want never hitting on anything other than 5+ even with army special rules, cap at 6+.
As for the armor, if you are arguing every boy should have a 5+ save that is a little silly as well like you said green tide thing, I get it you may think it’s boring but others do not having the green tide come at you, get turn 1 charges off because of special rules and then having a 5+ save seems OP... again my .02. If you are arguing giving some type of elite unit an equivalent to carapace armor, that would be cool.
As for the individual points reductions I can’t really comment on that, all I know is the last guy I played Orks against was some dude who fielded 200+ Orks in a 2000 point list.... game took forever and wasn’t fun. Thank baby Jesus for his very poor dice rolling.
A fixed 5+ to hit roll sounds not foolish at all. Orks are supposed to be there for comedic relief and are therefore not able to hit a barn door at point blank range. To increase the odds in their favour they just use a lot of Dakka. Think of it as a unique perk that separates the Greenskins from the rest of the other factions. It is the games designers´ job to balance this all out but apparently they have decided to give the Orks the middle finger which is not a novelty. Another orky staple is bad saves for their units but a lot of wounds for their big stuff like Stompas and Battlewagons.
It's absolutely foolish for balance reasons. I don't mind a cap of 6+ to hit, but the 5+ is silly.
A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".
If you guys are not going to give and take then cap all shooting every army wide at 5+... it’s fair you get yours and can’t somehow outshoot humanity’s finest. Problem solved, still makes no sense to me but that would be balanced.
As for the armor thing I’m still saving Guard should have better armor. Orks get a lot of attacks, increased strength, maybe more numbers, and now will be better in some instances in the shooting phase if everyone caps at a 5+... keep the oh look a metal plate at 6+ and oh a cheap special plastic Kevlar vest that we can’t fathom because of our level of technology at 5+.
usmcmidn wrote: If you guys are not going to give and take then cap all shooting every army wide at 5+... it’s fair you get yours and can’t somehow outshoot humanity’s finest. Problem solved, still makes no sense to me but that would be balanced.
As for the armor thing I’m still saving Guard should have better armor. Orks get a lot of attacks, increased strength, maybe more numbers, and now will be better in some instances in the shooting phase if everyone caps at a 5+... keep the oh look a metal plate at 6+ and oh a cheap special plastic Kevlar vest that we can’t fathom because of our level of technology at 5+.
usmcmidn wrote: If you guys are not going to give and take then cap all shooting every army wide at 5+... it’s fair you get yours and can’t somehow outshoot humanity’s finest. Problem solved, still makes no sense to me but that would be balanced.
As for the armor thing I’m still saving Guard should have better armor. Orks get a lot of attacks, increased strength, maybe more numbers, and now will be better in some instances in the shooting phase if everyone caps at a 5+... keep the oh look a metal plate at 6+ and oh a cheap special plastic Kevlar vest that we can’t fathom because of our level of technology at 5+.
Fluff should never have any impact on balance.
Ideally, the game should try to addere to fluff and be balanced respecting that fluff as much as possible, with very obvious compromises. Otherwhise you end like 9th Age, with the game not being warhammer anymore.
Galas wrote: A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".
Against a lot of armies currently Orks hit on a 5+, since not every army is taking -1 to hit. Yet I can say with complete confidence that if there's anyone out there who is getting blown off the table by Ork firepower, they're in a very, very small minority.
That's why it wouldn't be unbalanced for Orks to always hit on 5's. Ork shooting not working in 8th is not just a result of -1 modifiers; it's the result of base changes in 8th. Cover is much harder for Orks to get, since we tend to take big units to negate our poor Leadership, and it also provides the least benefit to us due to our poor armour saves. In previous recent editions, cover was how a lot of our shooting units gains survivability. They don't have that option anymore. Blast weapons used to be a way for Orks to negate poor ballistic skill, but now they hit just as poorly as all our other shooting. The twin-linked change handed Orks a very small increase in firepower but handed every other army a big increase, especially on armies that hit on a 3+. That meant that our shooting units were suddenly facing a much higher amount of firepower coming their way, whilst not being able to retaliate much better.
Much of this could be negated by appropriate points cost changes. But handing Orks a rule saying "Always hit on 5+" isn't going to create any balance problems because it's not causing balance problems now.
It has become clear to me that many people in this thread have been reading too much imperial propaganda! It's hard to believe Orks are actually good because every single faction basically has their lore written where they are the best and everyone else sucks... but their is genuine lore where orks have out smarted with better tactics and out shot the "finest of the imperium". One time the freaking orks outsmarted the Tau of all races!
Orks are not the comic relief recent GW has tried to push. Anyone with good knowledge of the lore would know that Orks are genetically designed to be the greatest weapons in the universe (whether it be by the Old ones, brainboyz or snotlings depending on what edition). So not only are we unbalanced and underpowered but we are also unrepresented on the table top as we are in the lore! If Orks played like they did right now they would have gone extinct before humanity even reached the stars (even with their reproduction).
Galas wrote: A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".
Against a lot of armies currently Orks hit on a 5+, since not every army is taking -1 to hit. Yet I can say with complete confidence that if there's anyone out there who is getting blown off the table by Ork firepower, they're in a very, very small minority.
That's why it wouldn't be unbalanced for Orks to always hit on 5's. Ork shooting not working in 8th is not just a result of -1 modifiers; it's the result of base changes in 8th. Cover is much harder for Orks to get, since we tend to take big units to negate our poor Leadership, and it also provides the least benefit to us due to our poor armour saves. In previous recent editions, cover was how a lot of our shooting units gains survivability. They don't have that option anymore. Blast weapons used to be a way for Orks to negate poor ballistic skill, but now they hit just as poorly as all our other shooting. The twin-linked change handed Orks a very small increase in firepower but handed every other army a big increase, especially on armies that hit on a 3+. That meant that our shooting units were suddenly facing a much higher amount of firepower coming their way, whilst not being able to retaliate much better.
Much of this could be negated by appropriate points cost changes. But handing Orks a rule saying "Always hit on 5+" isn't going to create any balance problems because it's not causing balance problems now.
Making armies inmune to whole strategies and bonuses of other armies isn't good game design. Making orks inmune to all "to hit" modifiers, as an army, isn't good game design. Having some ork units with inmunity to "to hit" rolls could be balanced. Other units with those rules exist, and if they are costed appropiately theres no problem with some specialized units like those.
But, Imperial Guard army wide inmunity to morale wasn't good game design. The Eldar Craftworld trait that make them inmune to morale loses isn't good game design.
Having stackable maluses that make the enemy literally incapable of doing anything is bad game design. Thats why the "Always hit on a 6" for everyone should exist.
All the other reasons you have explained are much more on point on what needs to be modified in orks to make them viable as a shooty army. The "Them hitting on 5+ isn't a problem, so they should always hit on a 5+" doesn't goes anywhere we should want to reach, talking about the base-rules and design of the game.
Galas, you have said what I was saying more clear I couldn’t agree better. We should come to a concensus on balance, a give and take type deal not just no we need this no matter what.
Because theres armies wholle army bonuses are "to hit" modifiers agaisn't shooting, a "to hit" modifier is all the defense flyers got in 8th, and having army-wide rules that negate full basic mechanics of the game is bad game design.
As I said, with a "A 6 is always a hit", Ork-based shooting units lose 50% of their shooting with a -1 to hit. With a -2 they still lose 50%, but Imperial Guard an Tau lose 66% of their shooting, etc...
Galas wrote: Because theres armies wholle army bonuses are "to hit" modifiers agaisn't shooting, a "to hit" modifier is all the defense flyers got in 8th, and having army-wide rules that negate full basic mechanics of the game is bad game design.
As I said, with a "A 6 is always a hit", Ork-based shooting units lose 50% of their shooting with a -1 to hit. With a -2 they still lose 50%, but Imperial Guard an Tau lose 66% of their shooting, etc...
For Mork sake we would still be hitting on 6s! It's not exsactly the greatest thing in the world for things that have points that are threw the roof and more expensive than guard and marine weapons! It's bad game design to have a factions where a lot of their troop can't even use their main weapon because of another races special ability! How is it balanced to keep losing to the exsact same list and then suddenly your opponent randomly decides their guys are another faction to get -1 to hit and cripple your entire army (because yes, lots of us do love shooting ork armies because as we have said a million times we like klans who focus on shooting and up until this edition our armies were totally viable). Giving the entire army -1 to hit was the dumbest and most game breaking thing anyone at gw could have ever thought about... by doing so they negated an entire factions shooting. As seen in the ig codex strats are not a buff that is supposed to win you the game. They're a lore friendly little reward that has no effect on points so hitting on a 5+ for orks would not only level the playing field but would also balance the game for a faction that already has terrible shooting. "B-But what if you actually roll 20 5s?" I've heard this argument and it is also dumb and I won't go into it.
What if one of the Ork klans tactics that come out is literally -3 to hit to marine players? The marine players would be out in the streets in protest because they would be hitting on 6s! We could just tell them that their armies are obviously close combat oriented because the chainsword is one of the most iconic weapons in the game so forget about the other things in their codex. So what if their entire army they paid equal money for is actually useless to someone who happened to be more interested in cc.
pismakron wrote:That is a strange way of looking at it. A negative modifier in close combat would be absolutely harmless to Tau, mostly harmless to IG, but be very disadvantageous to Orks, and severely crippling to Tyranids.
The reverse is true for negative modifiers to shooting. -2 to hit in the shooting phase would absolutely cripple IG or Tau whereas Orks and Nids would probably do alright under such circumstances. Genestealers, Nobs, Sluggaboyz, Gorkanauts and Hormagaunts would be largely unaffected.
Funny how you try to hide a model with almost 100 points worth of ranged weapons between models unaffected by shooting.
But no, orks are not doing alright against -2 hit modifiers, not even against -1 to hit. We have close to no chance of killing vehicles or monsters with such modifiers because we simply cannot reach them in combat and when we do, anything but a warboss or Thrakka himself are not going to actually destroy that vehicle.
Close combat can be prevented by movement, bubble wrapping, counter-charges and whatnot. Stop acting as if it were created equal to shooting. There is a reason why Khorne Daemons and World Eaters are failing hard even at casual levels.
Galas wrote:A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".
Currently the only reason to believe that fixed 5+ is unbalanced is you saying so.
Orks lose much more from -1 to hit than any other army, while paying the same (or more!) for their ranged weapons than marines who keep lying to themselves that they payed for their BS 3+.
Newsflash: You didn't! Your shooting models are the same than those of orks despite having better armor, ballistic skill, range, strength and AP - and often even comparable or better CC. Try using flash gits for a game instead of hellblasters and tell me how upgradeing a flash git to a hellblaster is worth 2 points.
Balance only ever seems to be in danger when orks are asking for something that might even compare to what the Imperium is. Other armies being able to table all but the most competitive ork armies with ease never seems to be a problem.
Galas wrote: Because theres armies wholle army bonuses are "to hit" modifiers agaisn't shooting, a "to hit" modifier is all the defense flyers got in 8th, and having army-wide rules that negate full basic mechanics of the game is bad game design.
That's an arbitrary definition of good game design. There are plenty of armies that already have army-wide rules to ignore actual basic mechanics (as in mechanics that actually appear in the basic rules).
Negative to hit modifiers are neither a basic mechanic, nor essential to the survival of anything. Fliers are still vehicles with high toughness, armor saves and wounds. Even when always hitting them on 5+, orks will struggle to take them down. Context is important.
If the codex would change ork shooting and melee to handle vehicles with the same ease other armies do, sure, 6+ is enough. But currently it isn't.
As I said, with a "A 6 is always a hit", Ork-based shooting units lose 50% of their shooting with a -1 to hit. With a -2 they still lose 50%, but Imperial Guard an Tau lose 66% of their shooting, etc...
Except those armies have easy access to shooting buffs through characters, army-wide rules, stratagems, orders and more. Of course, getting -1 to hit is a lot easier than -2, you just need to paint your army in the right color scheme.
Meanwhile, orks payed the same points for their shooting than tau and guard, while already shooting with less strength, ap and range. But that's ok, because orks are supposed to be bad at shooting, shouldn't be able to shoot on the level or gunline army, and it's all balanced because lootaz can assault a unit of MEQ and actually kill two of them. You gotta pay for those close combat stats, eh?
Getting screwed over three to four times is awesome.
Orks have both shooting and melee units. The have always been an army that does both equally. Orks are bad shots, not bad at shooting.
^^^^^^ Couldn't have said it better myself. As I said a few posts ago... any argument against orks getting this slight buff, that would still mean we are hitting on 5s, just sounds like another faction scared they might actually lose for once against ork players who have spent years perfecting their tactics because they have had to play extremely smartly just to have a chance. (I watched one game where it was dark angels vs Orks. The Dark Angels army was in no way competitive yet they still won by standing still and just rolling shots against a very smart and well thought out ork player)
Strg Alt wrote: The majority of people on this board never witnessed 2nd Orks which were quite shooty. But from 3rd onwards GW retconned the Orks into green Tyranids
You never played 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th edition did you?
Hell, even in 7th shooty orks were at least exactly as unviable as choppy orks were.
In fact, Orks being only good at melee is a mutation that happened pretty much exclusively in 8th edition. Orks never really had a high to-hit roll. What they had was lots and lots of dice. However, at the moment, Orks put out a pitiful amount of dice compared to almost any Imperial or Chaos army, while hitting less often and hitting less hard than either.
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
As the eldar codex shown, GM are aware that the xeno indcies are subpar, and unlike SM/CSM/GK and even AM to a degree where there were few changes to units and costs and the traits and such are everything, eldar got massive changes to points, unit stats and such across the board, in addition to their new traits and such.
So when the codex actually comes, THEN you can make claims about orks being not good enough, or having trouble.
Because by the looks of eldar-you can expect massive changes.
Being unable to shoot a few things under specific conditions is not an issue, if you got the toolbox to get around it.
Or flatout ignore it, as mentioned by some here, stormboys are some of the good things in 8th orks at the moment. they also happen to put a stop to the "can't be shot at" shenanigans by being fast, fly, and hitting well in CC.
BoomWolf wrote: I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
Then you should make a good argument for why it's absurd and would throw "large portions of the game out of whack".
You aren't doing so.
Orks always hitting on a natural 6 no matter what wouldn't throw ANY part of the game out of whack. In fact, it's no good argument for why even the idea Orks always hitting on a 5+ would throw "large portions of the game" in to disarray has been presented-- though I'm not really partial to the latter.
At 180 points, a Shoota Boy squad that has taken no casualties (why haven't you been shooting at them, again?) can put out 60 S4 AP- D1 shots, meaning 20 hits at 5+, or 10 at 6+. Equivalent points of tactical marines, notoriously decried by a few very loud posters as being garbage, do equivalent or better, and that's just with boltguns.
So this breaks what, then? This sure as hell wouldn't scare Alaitoc or Raven Guard.
This is an urban legend. Orks are hitting well in CC only against infantries. They just have tons of S4 with no ap attacks. Stop. The big choppa has a crappy AP-1 which means armored stuff is not threatened, pks/killsaws cost a lot and you'll get only a few wounds with them. High T models and melee superstars are still quite hard for orks, even if the greenskins charge.
Orks CC is average/mediocre in 8th edition. Of course compared to shooting you have the illusion that orks hit hard in combat, but that's not because of their melee abilities but thanks to the 0 damage they do by shooting.
BoomWolf wrote: I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
As the eldar codex shown, GM are aware that the xeno indcies are subpar, and unlike SM/CSM/GK and even AM to a degree where there were few changes to units and costs and the traits and such are everything, eldar got massive changes to points, unit stats and such across the board, in addition to their new traits and such.
So when the codex actually comes, THEN you can make claims about orks being not good enough, or having trouble.
Because by the looks of eldar-you can expect massive changes.
Being unable to shoot a few things under specific conditions is not an issue, if you got the toolbox to get around it.
Or flatout ignore it, as mentioned by some here, stormboys are some of the good things in 8th orks at the moment. they also happen to put a stop to the "can't be shot at" shenanigans by being fast, fly, and hit,ting well in CC.
Well I don’t know about anyone else, but I’m really glad this has been cleared up ‘Being unable to shoot a few things under specific conditions is not an issue, if you got the toolbox to get around it.‘ what a revelation! I would like a list of this toolbox please?
How have your stormboys faired against fliers out of interest, are you popping them left right and centre? Because in my experience they struggle to scratch them, get left for dust the following turn then get blasted in the ass.
Also could I have a list of the toolbox for ignoring the neigh on invulnerable (well least to my weak lists) unit wiping, vehicle popping, back line *terminator pooper that is the imperial flier? *insert unit of choice.
I and I’m sure many others will eagearly await your reply.....
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
pismakron wrote:That is a strange way of looking at it. A negative modifier in close combat would be absolutely harmless to Tau, mostly harmless to IG, but be very disadvantageous to Orks, and severely crippling to Tyranids.
The reverse is true for negative modifiers to shooting. -2 to hit in the shooting phase would absolutely cripple IG or Tau whereas Orks and Nids would probably do alright under such circumstances. Genestealers, Nobs, Sluggaboyz, Gorkanauts and Hormagaunts would be largely unaffected.
Funny how you try to hide a model with almost 100 points worth of ranged weapons between models unaffected by shooting.
But no, orks are not doing alright against -2 hit modifiers, not even against -1 to hit. We have close to no chance of killing vehicles or monsters with such modifiers because we simply cannot reach them in combat and when we do, anything but a warboss or Thrakka himself are not going to actually destroy that vehicle.
Close combat can be prevented by movement, bubble wrapping, counter-charges and whatnot. Stop acting as if it were created equal to shooting. There is a reason why Khorne Daemons and World Eaters are failing hard even at casual levels.
Galas wrote:A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".
Currently the only reason to believe that fixed 5+ is unbalanced is you saying so.
Orks lose much more from -1 to hit than any other army, while paying the same (or more!) for their ranged weapons than marines who keep lying to themselves that they payed for their BS 3+.
Newsflash: You didn't! Your shooting models are the same than those of orks despite having better armor, ballistic skill, range, strength and AP - and often even comparable or better CC. Try using flash gits for a game instead of hellblasters and tell me how upgradeing a flash git to a hellblaster is worth 2 points.
Balance only ever seems to be in danger when orks are asking for something that might even compare to what the Imperium is. Other armies being able to table all but the most competitive ork armies with ease never seems to be a problem.
Galas wrote: Because theres armies wholle army bonuses are "to hit" modifiers agaisn't shooting, a "to hit" modifier is all the defense flyers got in 8th, and having army-wide rules that negate full basic mechanics of the game is bad game design.
That's an arbitrary definition of good game design. There are plenty of armies that already have army-wide rules to ignore actual basic mechanics (as in mechanics that actually appear in the basic rules).
Negative to hit modifiers are neither a basic mechanic, nor essential to the survival of anything. Fliers are still vehicles with high toughness, armor saves and wounds. Even when always hitting them on 5+, orks will struggle to take them down. Context is important.
If the codex would change ork shooting and melee to handle vehicles with the same ease other armies do, sure, 6+ is enough. But currently it isn't.
As I said, with a "A 6 is always a hit", Ork-based shooting units lose 50% of their shooting with a -1 to hit. With a -2 they still lose 50%, but Imperial Guard an Tau lose 66% of their shooting, etc...
Except those armies have easy access to shooting buffs through characters, army-wide rules, stratagems, orders and more. Of course, getting -1 to hit is a lot easier than -2, you just need to paint your army in the right color scheme.
Meanwhile, orks payed the same points for their shooting than tau and guard, while already shooting with less strength, ap and range. But that's ok, because orks are supposed to be bad at shooting, shouldn't be able to shoot on the level or gunline army, and it's all balanced because lootaz can assault a unit of MEQ and actually kill two of them. You gotta pay for those close combat stats, eh?
Getting screwed over three to four times is awesome.
Orks have both shooting and melee units. The have always been an army that does both equally. Orks are bad shots, not bad at shooting.
As I said to Glane, the other reasons you have listed: Paying the same for just worse weapons, having basically everything in the army with a 6+ save, and in general, overpriced and unreliable stuff are the PROBLEMS of the orks. Hitting on 5+ or 6+, witth those other problems fixed, would make a tactical approach to a new enemy.
But I'll give you that the "-1 to hit at 12"" is a bad rule. Yeah.
And to be honest I don't understand the reasong behind "Ork shooting sucks because our weapons are bad and overpriced compared with armies with better BS and weapons. So the way to fix it is making we always hit on a 5+ instead of making our weapons cheaper and better"
And the bit about Game Design... it isn't arbitrary. I have listed many armies that have rules that GW has given them that are bad game design and are actually generating problems, yeah.
And to be honest I have never said that Ork shooting should sucks, but whatever. Keep making strawmans that I have never said. I'm just saying that the way to fix ork shooting isn't making them always hit on 5+ (But making a basic rule that a 6 is always a hit, thats something that should be made)
But I get it guys, your codex sucks, and you just want anything to be competitive. As a Tau that doesn't spam Commanders and Drones, I can understand you. But one needs to be reasonable and fix the real problems of the army, not random ones.
I could say that Tau should always hit on 4+ because, they already hit on 4+ most of the time and Tau aren't shooting out people off the table with their Broadsides, Firewarriors and Hammerheads? No? That could fix and balance them... or not. It will not, because their problems are about rules and costs, not about hitting on 4+, or 5+ agaisn't some armies.
lolman1c wrote: ^^^^^^ Couldn't have said it better myself. As I said a few posts ago... any argument against orks getting this slight buff, that would still mean we are hitting on 5s, just sounds like another faction scared they might actually lose for once against ork players who have spent years perfecting their tactics because they have had to play extremely smartly just to have a chance. (I watched one game where it was dark angels vs Orks. The Dark Angels army was in no way competitive yet they still won by standing still and just rolling shots against a very smart and well thought out ork player)
I'm sorry but this absurd victimization needs to stop if we want to have a honest discussion. Is worse than calling everybody that complained about Conscripts a Space Marines fanboy when many people wheren't. Theres reasons to arguee about a fixed +5 to hit roll being a bad solution. I don't have seen nobody saying "Oh yeah no, Orks shouldn't hit on a 5+, and they shouldn't receive other buffs and fixes, they just need to suck"
Making sure we always hit on a 6+ or 5+ would make ork weapons better. IT'd be just one aspect of making Ork weapons better (the other aspects would be "give Ork weapons more shots", tbh).
Ork ranged weapons always having a chance to hit means that there's no situation where they're completely and utterly useless. Which is the point of 8th edition shooting-- if even a lasgun can occsionally damage a titan, why shouldn't a much bigger and heavier shoota not be able to occasionally damage an alaitoc ranger?
Because it doesn't matter if you make the weapons shoot more shots when those shots have 0% chance of hitting. After all: 3*0=0 30*0=0 300*0=0 3000*0=0
Melissia wrote: Making sure we always hit on a 6+ or 5+ would make ork weapons better. IT'd be just one aspect of making Ork weapons better (the other aspects would be "give Ork weapons more shots", tbh).
Ork ranged weapons always having a chance to hit means that there's no situation where they're completely and utterly useless. Which is the point of 8th edition shooting-- if even a lasgun can occsionally damage a titan, why shouldn't a much bigger and heavier shoota not be able to occasionally damage an alaitoc ranger?
Yeah, I have said earlier, making every 6 a hit, is the same phylosophy as making every 6 a wound. It should be a core rule of the game. I assume that at first they didn't tought about as many to hit modifiers as we have now.
Strg Alt wrote: The majority of people on this board never witnessed 2nd Orks which were quite shooty. But from 3rd onwards GW retconned the Orks into green Tyranids
You never played 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th edition did you?
Hell, even in 7th shooty orks were at least exactly as unviable as choppy orks were.
In fact, Orks being only good at melee is a mutation that happened pretty much exclusively in 8th edition. Orks never really had a high to-hit roll. What they had was lots and lots of dice. However, at the moment, Orks put out a pitiful amount of dice compared to almost any Imperial or Chaos army, while hitting less often and hitting less hard than either.
I remember in 7th edition my 30 boyz mob lost against some Necron Snipers in CC. XD That's how bad it was!
Strg Alt wrote: The majority of people on this board never witnessed 2nd Orks which were quite shooty. But from 3rd onwards GW retconned the Orks into green Tyranids
You never played 3rd, 4th, 5th, or 6th edition did you?
Hell, even in 7th shooty orks were at least exactly as unviable as choppy orks were.
In fact, Orks being only good at melee is a mutation that happened pretty much exclusively in 8th edition. Orks never really had a high to-hit roll. What they had was lots and lots of dice. However, at the moment, Orks put out a pitiful amount of dice compared to almost any Imperial or Chaos army, while hitting less often and hitting less hard than either.
I have played 40K from 2nd to 5th. I remember the Choppa USR rule (reducing armour saves to a 4+) as being very effective vs. power armour and even more so against terminator armour. So stop portraying the Orks as wimps in close combat. It is simply not true. According to some posters they suck in this edition because their shooting is neutered with the application of modifiers and even in their chosen profession, the grand bar room brawl, they just don´t pack a punch. In addition, their vehicles are also overcosted. So the only prudent solution is to hope the upcoming Ork Codex will correct the design flaws and if this will not be the case just don´t play them for this edition.
So the only prudent solution is to hope the upcoming Ork Codex will correct the design flaws and if this will not be the case just don´t play them for this edition.
There is so much stupidity in this thread but this must be the worst so far...
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
You can write them multiple times, each with a different reason why -1 to hit is bad.
So far, we have not heard a peep from GW about this issue, which is surprising because they are supposedly communicating these days. We spend enough on this hobby (just look at GW's stock price for proof) and we deserve at least acknowledgement that there is a problem here. It won't happen, though, if they think it's just 1 or 2 guys complaining.
You can write them multiple times, each with a different reason why -1 to hit is bad.
So far, we have not heard a peep from GW about this issue, which is surprising because they are supposedly communicating these days. We spend enough on this hobby (just look at GW's stock price for proof) and we deserve at least acknowledgement that there is a problem here. It won't happen, though, if they think it's just 1 or 2 guys complaining.
I have sent an e-mail, it wont do any good though. For every ork player there are scores of space marine players that are happy with orks being nothing but target practice.
You can write them multiple times, each with a different reason why -1 to hit is bad.
So far, we have not heard a peep from GW about this issue, which is surprising because they are supposedly communicating these days. We spend enough on this hobby (just look at GW's stock price for proof) and we deserve at least acknowledgement that there is a problem here. It won't happen, though, if they think it's just 1 or 2 guys complaining.
I have sent an e-mail, it wont do any good though. For every ork player there are scores of space marine players that are happy with orks being nothing but target practice.
Okay fine. As an AdMech and Necron player I'm telling you the unmodified 5+ to hit is not a good idea.
Go ahead and use the argument again it's privileged Space Marine players again. Please, I insist. Go ahead.
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Galas wrote: Thanks for the direcion JimOnMars. I have wrote them about making a 6 always hit in the core rules. Now the ball is on their roof
I personally plan to write them about Calvary benefiting from Chapter Tactics rules. Yeah that's only Chaos Steeds and Rough Riders but I don't think it's fair to not include them.
I love how the "Space marine players just want everyone else to suck" has become the go-to argument whenever someone disagree with the way of fixing a unit or faction that is bad. Not even with the fact that they need to be fixed, just the way to do it.
I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that"
And theres "To hit" modifiers in CC. Some units have them.
Plus: Shooting has a TON of advantages over CC. Making shooting have some disadvantages agains't CC isn't a bad thing.
I'll repeat for the fifth time. The problem with Ork shooting is how they units are all crap. That isn't fixed making their BS inmune to modifiers. Fix Orks making them stronger, more reliable and cheaper, and make everything it on a 6. And then Orks are competitive without making all the -1 in 12" Traits just useless agaisn't orks.
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Okay fine. As an AdMech and Necron player I'm telling you the unmodified 5+ to hit is not a good idea.
Go ahead and use the argument again it's privileged Space Marine players again. Please, I insist. Go ahead.
I never once stated that an unmodified 5+ was a good idea. I never called you a space marine player, get over yourself!
My statement is still valid, for every ork player there are scores of space marine players needing orks to be under powered.
If you dont play orks waht are you doing in this thread? You have lots of ad-mech threads to whine in.
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
Erm, wouldn't improving the cover save just run into the same problem where IF/IW completely negates your trait?
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
Erm, wouldn't improving the cover save just run into the same problem where IF/IW completely negates your trait?
You are actually correct, I had forgot about that. Well, right now I have no ideas for new traits for Alaitoc, Alpha legion, etc...
Okay fine. As an AdMech and Necron player I'm telling you the unmodified 5+ to hit is not a good idea.
Go ahead and use the argument again it's privileged Space Marine players again. Please, I insist. Go ahead.
I never once stated that an unmodified 5+ was a good idea. I never called you a space marine player, get over yourself!
My statement is still valid, for every ork player there are scores of space marine players needing orks to be under powered.
If you dont play orks waht are you doing in this thread? You have lots of ad-mech threads to whine in.
I'm in the thread because people like you have no concept of balance. So when you're told your ideas are bad and have to retort with "You're just a SM player", you're being lazy intellectually and I'm not gonna have any of it.
Also at that point it has nothing to do with being sneaky. :p
I think the -1 to hit traits are fine personally, it's only a problem because they stack. Shouldn't be able to stack Airborne with the Alaitoc trait (or Miasma of Pestilence, for that matter).
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
JimOnMars wrote: I have trouble getting my head around the objections in this thread. NOBODY seems to be complaining that cc always hits on 5+. Why the uproar about shooting working the same way?
Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design. As I said before, there could be specific Ork units that ignore "to hit" modifiers like Dark Reapers. If they are costed appropiately, then thats all good.
But a "Oh I'm sorry you are playing Alpha Legion/Raven Guard /Alaitoc, I play orks so you Trait just become useless. Yeah theres nothing you can do about that".
Is as bad as a Night Lord army going agaisn't imperial guard pre-FAQ "Oh yeah I know all your strategy is based on morale, but I just ignore morale all together. Yeah, sorry about that "
This is true. I am suggesting (or wishlisting to be more accurate) that the vast majority of these traits be replaced with some other trait, like +2 save in cover. That, plus the 6+ guarantee, would fix the problem and apply to all armies equally. A few very special units could keep the -1, as long as the cap is in place.
Yeah, I think too that the -1 to hit trait is just bad design. A +2 save in cover could actually be pretty good, situational, but not just as broken as the -1 to hit.
Erm, wouldn't improving the cover save just run into the same problem where IF/IW completely negates your trait?
You are actually correct, I had forgot about that. Well, right now I have no ideas for new traits for Alaitoc, Alpha legion, etc...
The worst part is the traits make sense fluff-wise.
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Arachnofiend wrote: ...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Which is the entire point of the trait, to draw the enemy close where the user can do the most damage; thus why Raven Guard has it (that is their actual fluffy chapter tactic).
Thus your "counterplay" is thus literally saying "play in to the raven guard commander's hands and do what they want you to do".
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
A -1 to hit against at over 12" isn't killing a core mechanic though is it?
Galas wrote: Because have wholle armies that ignore mechanics without counter play is bad game design.
Yeah, let's get rid of Raven Guard, Alaitoc, and Alpha Legion, they suck.
Oh wait you were talking about the idea of Orks always hitting on 6+?
Because you know that the "Orks always hit on a natural 6" thing would still mean that those armies with a generic -1 to hit them if they're further htan 12" away would still get a big benefit.
Sorry, could yo explain what idea are you trying to say here? I can't understand it, sarcasm in english isn't my forte
I proposed that EVERYTHING on the game, always hit on a natural 6 on the dice. So even if you stack negative "To Hit" modifiers you can't make yourself literally invulnerable to shooting.
Arachnofiend wrote: ...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Which is the entire point of the trait, to draw the enemy close where the user can do the most damage; thus why Raven Guard has it (that is their actual fluffy chapter tactic).
Thus your "counterplay" is thus literally saying "play in to the raven guard commander's hands and do what they want you to do".
Because Space Marines have SO many damage dealers that close up?
Arachnofiend wrote: ...Those traits have counterplay specifically built into them? If you get within 12", they don't get their trait.
Which is the entire point of the trait, to draw the enemy close where the user can do the most damage; thus why Raven Guard has it (that is their actual fluffy chapter tactic).
Thus your "counterplay" is thus literally saying "play in to the raven guard commander's hands and do what they want you to do".
...Oh no, now the boltguns are in rapid fire range? Loyalists SM are a pretty long-range army, most of their really dangerous stuff operates in the 36"-48" range.
With a max 6+ to hit, Orks could be one of the best shooting armies to play around the -1 to hit at 12".
For example, IG and Tau, if they get close to Chaos Marines, normal Marines or Eldar, they will be Sliced to pieces in meele.
Orks, even with their most shooting units and lists (Ok, not snotlings), obviously in the idea of a post Ork-Codex where shooting Orks units are competitive and balanced, will have a run for their money on meele just by their basic stats.
I've had enough with this thread... people are genuinely okay with orks physically not being able to hit a target (needing a 7+ if they move) just because GW were idiots and gave a faction a trait without thinking once about the consequence to Orks (like they usually do). All these armies even before the codex had amazing traits, characters and everything and nobody even batted an eyelid.
As I said before and as others have said, their are actually factions that already ignore core rules! Like pulling out of combat and firing! Or ignoring moral! Or ignoring invlun saves!
I have to say this ever freaking time! Orks would still be hitting 1/3 of the time naturally! You honestly wouldn't even notice the difference! It would just be nice as an Ork player to at least have the illusion that I have a chance rather than turning up to a game to find your entire faction is 50% less effective because of some idiotic rule!
I won't be posting again on this thread because it's clear I think I know I am correct from my experience and you think you know your correct for what ever reasons you have. It has been pages now of going around in circles.
lolman1c wrote: I've had enough with this thread... people are genuinely okay with orks physically not being able to hit a target (needing a 7+ if they move) just because GW were idiots and gave a faction a trait without thinking once about the consequence to Orks (like they usually do). All these armies even before the codex had amazing traits, characters and everything and nobody even batted an eyelid.
I think literally only one person has said that he is okay with orks not being able to shoot at some units or armies in the wholle thread.
Okay fine. As an AdMech and Necron player I'm telling you the unmodified 5+ to hit is not a good idea.
Go ahead and use the argument again it's privileged Space Marine players again. Please, I insist. Go ahead.
I never once stated that an unmodified 5+ was a good idea. I never called you a space marine player, get over yourself!
My statement is still valid, for every ork player there are scores of space marine players needing orks to be under powered.
If you dont play orks waht are you doing in this thread? You have lots of ad-mech threads to whine in.
I'm in the thread because people like you have no concept of balance. So when you're told your ideas are bad and have to retort with "You're just a SM player", you're being lazy intellectually and I'm not gonna have any of it.
I think you should avoid talking about intellectuality, I havent put forth any of my ideas in this thread and i have never called anyone a space marine player. Go back and read a little slower next time.
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
I think 5+ fixed to hit for Orks is fine. Seems like a very Orky perk to me. I'm playing red marines with NO chapter tactics in my games and I don't fear their shooting at all, really. There's no reason for any list to be able to make it worse. I don't care if that's their "scheme". Schemes fail sometimes. The -1 to hit lists should fear something. Sometimes.
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
I think 5+ fixed to hit for Orks is fine. Seems like a very Orky perk to me. I'm playing red marines with NO chapter tactics in my games and I don't fear their shooting at all, really. There's no reason for any list to be able to make it worse. I don't care if that's their "scheme". Schemes fail sometimes. The -1 to hit lists should fear something. Sometimes.
Yeah. They should fear armies actually wanting to get in their faces. It only appears broken because everyone and their mother is attempting to do gunline armies for the most part.
Getting in their face is not viable atm. At least, not against lists with proper screens. Screens make "getting the face of" not viable.
The -1 to hit lists need to have that ability straight turned off by some lists, imo. Orks are the perfect choice. They already cause mediocre damage in the shooting phase.
Martel732 wrote: Getting in their face is not viable atm. At least, not against lists with proper screens. Screens make "getting the face of" not viable.
The -1 to hit lists need to have that ability straight turned off by some lists, imo. Orks are the perfect choice. They already cause mediocre damage in the shooting phase.
Which proves how more an issue that those Tzeentch things and Conscripts were. Now they're both less of issues.
pismakron wrote:That is a strange way of looking at it. A negative modifier in close combat would be absolutely harmless to Tau, mostly harmless to IG, but be very disadvantageous to Orks, and severely crippling to Tyranids.
The reverse is true for negative modifiers to shooting. -2 to hit in the shooting phase would absolutely cripple IG or Tau whereas Orks and Nids would probably do alright under such circumstances. Genestealers, Nobs, Sluggaboyz, Gorkanauts and Hormagaunts would be largely unaffected.
Funny how you try to hide a model with almost 100 points worth of ranged weapons between models unaffected by shooting.
But no, orks are not doing alright against -2 hit modifiers, not even against -1 to hit. We have close to no chance of killing vehicles or monsters with such modifiers because we simply cannot reach them in combat and when we do, anything but a warboss or Thrakka himself are not going to actually destroy that vehicle.
Close combat can be prevented by movement, bubble wrapping, counter-charges and whatnot. Stop acting as if it were created equal to shooting. There is a reason why Khorne Daemons and World Eaters are failing hard even at casual levels.
Galas wrote:A "Every 6 to hit roll is a hit" rule benefits Orks the most of every army agaisn't all kind of -1 hit bonuses. And is much more easy to balance than just "Always hit on a 5+".
Currently the only reason to believe that fixed 5+ is unbalanced is you saying so.
Orks lose much more from -1 to hit than any other army, while paying the same (or more!) for their ranged weapons than marines who keep lying to themselves that they payed for their BS 3+.
Newsflash: You didn't! Your shooting models are the same than those of orks despite having better armor, ballistic skill, range, strength and AP - and often even comparable or better CC. Try using flash gits for a game instead of hellblasters and tell me how upgradeing a flash git to a hellblaster is worth 2 points.
Balance only ever seems to be in danger when orks are asking for something that might even compare to what the Imperium is. Other armies being able to table all but the most competitive ork armies with ease never seems to be a problem.
Galas wrote: Because theres armies wholle army bonuses are "to hit" modifiers agaisn't shooting, a "to hit" modifier is all the defense flyers got in 8th, and having army-wide rules that negate full basic mechanics of the game is bad game design.
That's an arbitrary definition of good game design. There are plenty of armies that already have army-wide rules to ignore actual basic mechanics (as in mechanics that actually appear in the basic rules).
Negative to hit modifiers are neither a basic mechanic, nor essential to the survival of anything. Fliers are still vehicles with high toughness, armor saves and wounds. Even when always hitting them on 5+, orks will struggle to take them down. Context is important.
If the codex would change ork shooting and melee to handle vehicles with the same ease other armies do, sure, 6+ is enough. But currently it isn't.
As I said, with a "A 6 is always a hit", Ork-based shooting units lose 50% of their shooting with a -1 to hit. With a -2 they still lose 50%, but Imperial Guard an Tau lose 66% of their shooting, etc...
Except those armies have easy access to shooting buffs through characters, army-wide rules, stratagems, orders and more. Of course, getting -1 to hit is a lot easier than -2, you just need to paint your army in the right color scheme.
Meanwhile, orks payed the same points for their shooting than tau and guard, while already shooting with less strength, ap and range. But that's ok, because orks are supposed to be bad at shooting, shouldn't be able to shoot on the level or gunline army, and it's all balanced because lootaz can assault a unit of MEQ and actually kill two of them. You gotta pay for those close combat stats, eh?
Getting screwed over three to four times is awesome.
Orks have both shooting and melee units. The have always been an army that does both equally. Orks are bad shots, not bad at shooting.
As I said to Glane, the other reasons you have listed: Paying the same for just worse weapons, having basically everything in the army with a 6+ save, and in general, overpriced and unreliable stuff are the PROBLEMS of the orks. Hitting on 5+ or 6+, witth those other problems fixed, would make a tactical approach to a new enemy.
But I'll give you that the "-1 to hit at 12"" is a bad rule. Yeah.
And to be honest I don't understand the reasong behind "Ork shooting sucks because our weapons are bad and overpriced compared with armies with better BS and weapons. So the way to fix it is making we always hit on a 5+ instead of making our weapons cheaper and better"
And the bit about Game Design... it isn't arbitrary. I have listed many armies that have rules that GW has given them that are bad game design and are actually generating problems, yeah.
And to be honest I have never said that Ork shooting should sucks, but whatever. Keep making strawmans that I have never said. I'm just saying that the way to fix ork shooting isn't making them always hit on 5+ (But making a basic rule that a 6 is always a hit, thats something that should be made)
But I get it guys, your codex sucks, and you just want anything to be competitive. As a Tau that doesn't spam Commanders and Drones, I can understand you. But one needs to be reasonable and fix the real problems of the army, not random ones.
I could say that Tau should always hit on 4+ because, they already hit on 4+ most of the time and Tau aren't shooting out people off the table with their Broadsides, Firewarriors and Hammerheads? No? That could fix and balance them... or not. It will not, because their problems are about rules and costs, not about hitting on 4+, or 5+ agaisn't some armies.
lolman1c wrote: ^^^^^^ Couldn't have said it better myself. As I said a few posts ago... any argument against orks getting this slight buff, that would still mean we are hitting on 5s, just sounds like another faction scared they might actually lose for once against ork players who have spent years perfecting their tactics because they have had to play extremely smartly just to have a chance. (I watched one game where it was dark angels vs Orks. The Dark Angels army was in no way competitive yet they still won by standing still and just rolling shots against a very smart and well thought out ork player)
I'm sorry but this absurd victimization needs to stop if we want to have a honest discussion. Is worse than calling everybody that complained about Conscripts a Space Marines fanboy when many people wheren't. Theres reasons to arguee about a fixed +5 to hit roll being a bad solution. I don't have seen nobody saying "Oh yeah no, Orks shouldn't hit on a 5+, and they shouldn't receive other buffs and fixes, they just need to suck"
I'm an Ork player and I agree with your points 100%.
The suggested fix for being unable to shoot (that being the +5/+6 always hits) is a baindaid fix, and will instead generate more problems by making Orks have a fake counter to armies that rely on it, ie "Oh I have a tag thats useless against orks, that sucks. I better repaint my stuff for this one tournament game".
Games Workshop has done this before too, with the penalties to hit most likely being in response to the (now everywhere) dice rerolling auras. Which are also a horrible mechanic.
An answer needs to be found that allows existing gamespace to be non-polluted with more toxic design. I DO NOT want to see massive ork to hit reroll bubbles (Oh, those 60 shoota boyz shots? Reroll 1/6th of them) which will bog down gameplay.
We need more active, not passive answers to these things - which should also be fluff based.
Orks have the neat 'psychic bubble' fluff going on for them, perhaps something like:
1 cp - Dem gits are slow, sik 'em! Warboss Zargob and his boyz saw a 'umie beakie stumble and fall, suddenly everyone else in the human squad was stumbling and slipping as word spread throughout the ork camp Target an enemy unit, for this turn all Ork firepower ignores any negative modifiers given by that unit for the purposes of to hit rolls. If a unit dies while under the effects of this strategem gain 1 command point.
If that's too strong, make the Ork player designate a unit during the enemy turn instead.
There's a whole plethora of options and ways to fix this issue, and having a silly bandaid fix that invalidates a whole race / org trait is not the way to go.
How hard is it to fill out an Ork Brigade detachment with the proper elites / fast attack / heavy weapons?
Asking because GW will likely see Stratagems as a way of solving the problem of Ork shooting. Will not be very useful unless you can get enough command points to make it work.
lolman1c wrote: I've had enough with this thread... people are genuinely okay with orks physically not being able to hit a target (needing a 7+ if they move) just because GW were idiots and gave a faction a trait without thinking once about the consequence to Orks (like they usually do). All these armies even before the codex had amazing traits, characters and everything and nobody even batted an eyelid.
As I said before and as others have said, their are actually factions that already ignore core rules! Like pulling out of combat and firing! Or ignoring moral! Or ignoring invlun saves!
I have to say this ever freaking time! Orks would still be hitting 1/3 of the time naturally! You honestly wouldn't even notice the difference! It would just be nice as an Ork player to at least have the illusion that I have a chance rather than turning up to a game to find your entire faction is 50% less effective because of some idiotic rule!
I won't be posting again on this thread because it's clear I think I know I am correct from my experience and you think you know your correct for what ever reasons you have. It has been pages now of going around in circles.
If you read the multiple posts people have been suggesting no one is saying that... we are sayin max the cap at 6+.... Game wide. That way you don’t get screwed over, and the armies with special rules won’t get screwed over. Why would GW make a special rule where the Orks are completely unphased by by it I.e. shooting modifiers when all other armies are not? No one wants Orks to suck, not everyone here is a SM player, we want the game to be fair and balanced. I get it Ork players are frustrated because the codex isn’t out yet, like people have said we need to wait for the codex. To just auto say omg no hit modifiers when playing against Orks is a bit unfair, however at the same time, yes I also think not being able to hit at all during shooting is unfair, that’s why I say max the cap at 6+.
Ork shooting is already dead. It doesn't matter if they hit on 5+ or 6+. The problems with ork shooting aren't "to hit" modifieres. Even agaisn't a army without any kind of "-1 to hit" bonus, ork shooting is totally useless.
It gives Orks/other armies a chance to hit while still giving an opposing army an opportunity to use a special rule/ability.... It is fair.... It may hinder (not completely destroy) one aspect of your army (shooting) but you also have a major other if not more important strength.... Close combat. Cap shooting at 6+ its fair and balanced. Everyone wins.
NOTE: Im not a SM or Eldar player (anymore) I play guard. I feel like I have to put that in this thread.
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
Yes, I don't care if they ignore the gimmick of a few select armies that are cut-and-paste portions of each other given that they have other strategems, warlord traits and such that should still be in effect.
As a result they are one of the worst armies for both shooting and move and shooting. The drop of assault/heavy weapons means that they'll be dealing 6+ to hit to begin with and heavy weapons will be massively penalized as a result even if they aren't forced to move while still costing an abnormal cost compared to armies that have higher BS but somehow cheaper weaponry.
Why are we letting a single factions trait within a book dictate the power of entire another book? Should we start cutting things that let units fire on deepstrikers as it now ignores that gimmick? Especially Craftworld now has the strongest anti-deepstrike stratagem with Forewarned? There are always abilities, traits, and stratagems that will allow an army to ignore specific things out of turn sequence, morale, or other things. But the ability to 5+ shoot with Orks oh no that's the greatest threat! Would you complain if it's say a Bad Moonz trait or Strategem?
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
Yes, I don't care if they ignore the gimmick of a few select armies that are cut-and-paste portions of each other given that they have other strategems, warlord traits and such that should still be in effect.
As a result they are one of the worst armies for both shooting and move and shooting. The drop of assault/heavy weapons means that they'll be dealing 6+ to hit to begin with and heavy weapons will be massively penalized as a result even if they aren't forced to move while still costing an abnormal cost compared to armies that have higher BS but somehow cheaper weaponry.
Why are we letting a single factions trait within a book dictate the power of entire another book? Should we start cutting things that let units fire on deepstrikers as it now ignores that gimmick? Especially Craftworld now has the strongest anti-deepstrike stratagem with Forewarned? There are always abilities, traits, and stratagems that will allow an army to ignore specific things out of turn sequence, morale, or other things. But the ability to 5+ shoot with Orks oh no that's the greatest threat! Would you complain if it's say a Bad Moonz trait or Strategem?
Dude there’s other armies that put modifiers on shooting then just SM. There’s no reason and no medium ground in this thread I’m out, this thread is getting out of hand. It turned into a poor me thread.
I'm ok with modifiers, I don't think orks should hit on 5s and 6s regardless of modifiers.
I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted. Let us bring more stuff, IMHO it's the only way to make them viable, other than bringing the green tide.
Orks are supposed to be an horde army. Currently you can only spam boyz or grots which means they're not an horde army.
Blackie wrote: I'm ok with modifiers, I don't think orks should hit on 5s and 6s regardless of modifiers.
I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted. Let us bring more stuff, IMHO it's the only way to make them viable, other than bringing the green tide.
Orks are supposed to be an horde army. Currently you can only spam boyz or grots which means they're not an horde army.
How much more stuff? Let's take a loota trying to shoot down something with -1 to hit. Let's say it's something multi-wounded with 3+ armor and t4-6. Loota will inflict 0.22 wounds on average. For example, a havok will inflict 0.66 wounds - that's 3 times more. Havok costs twice as much as a loota but is 4 times as durable (when in cover). So, to make them 'even' when shooting at something with -1 to-hit, a loota must cost ~57% of it's original cost. That's 9-10 pts. And that's to just make a loota as effective as a csm autocannon havok which is quite a mediocre unit to begin with. Should an autocannon cost 3-4 pts for orks to make it even? But than if they're shooting at something without a -1 to-hit modifier, the ork shoots only twice as bad as a havok point-for-point. And should now cost ~67% of it's original cost. That's 11-12 pts.
So...9-10 or 11-12? Or 0 pts if we're shooting at -2 to-hit stuff?
What if we start counting in morale issues that lootas have? Or their better improving durability vs low ap attacks. It's all impossible to price correctly with this d6 system. Besides, i wouldn't like to get a ton of orks on board as that's pretty tiresome to paint. I'd pretty much like the loota to simply be better. Get a 4+ or 5+ armor save, get d3+1 shots and bs4. Now that'd probably be worth 17 ppm. And that's much better than 10 ppm lootas.
Galas wrote: And to be honest I don't understand the reasong behind "Ork shooting sucks because our weapons are bad and overpriced compared with armies with better BS and weapons. So the way to fix it is making we always hit on a 5+ instead of making our weapons cheaper and better"
What's the point of S16 AP-5 weapons with 6 damage if they can't hit our enemies?
Ork weapons have always been inferior to the Imperiums weapons, that's part of their identity. There have been plenty of times where the weapon profiles have not been a problem when they were costed properly. You can't do a thing about not being able to hit at all though.
But I get it guys, your codex sucks, and you just want anything to be competitive. As a Tau that doesn't spam Commanders and Drones, I can understand you. But one needs to be reasonable and fix the real problems of the army, not random ones.
I could say that Tau should always hit on 4+ because, they already hit on 4+ most of the time and Tau aren't shooting out people off the table with their Broadsides, Firewarriors and Hammerheads? No? That could fix and balance them... or not. It will not, because their problems are about rules and costs, not about hitting on 4+, or 5+ agaisn't some armies.
The problem is, either ork shooting is balanced against normal armies, then all shooting are useless against armies with -1 hit modifiers because basically lose 50% of it. Or we are balanced against armies with -1 hit modifiers, then we are twice as good against any army that doesn't have such modifiers, which will probably result in orks blowing everything but raven guard, alaitoc and similar armies off the table.
You cannot balance -50% to shooting (actually even more) as free army wide debuff, so you need to take it out of the equation.
lolman1c wrote: I'm sorry but this absurd victimization needs to stop if we want to have a honest discussion. Is worse than calling everybody that complained about Conscripts a Space Marines fanboy when many people wheren't. Theres reasons to arguee about a fixed +5 to hit roll being a bad solution. I don't have seen nobody saying "Oh yeah no, Orks shouldn't hit on a 5+, and they shouldn't receive other buffs and fixes, they just need to suck"
So, tell me. How do you plan on fixing orks against armies that the cannot shoot? How do you plan on balancing a rule that turns 2000 points of ork shooting into 1000 points of ork shooting?
Army-wide -1 to hit will not go away, so orks need a way to combat that, because they suffer by far the most from it.
It gives Orks/other armies a chance to hit while still giving an opposing army an opportunity to use a special rule/ability.... It is fair.... It may hinder (not completely destroy) one aspect of your army (shooting) but you also have a major other if not more important strength.... Close combat. Cap shooting at 6+ its fair and balanced. Everyone wins.
NOTE: Im not a SM or Eldar player (anymore) I play guard. I feel like I have to put that in this thread.
It does destroy ork shooting though. -1 to hit also means all ork shooting is half as effective. If orks are properly balanced against armies without permanent -1 to hit, they will be utterly useless against those with it and vice versa.
In terms of guard, imagine if deff skullz got the clan rule to just remove half your tanks and artillery models from the table (they are good at stealing stuff). But hey, you still got guardsmen and heavy weapon teams, am I right?
For orks, the raven guard (and other similar traits) are exactly the same as:
"Whenever one of your units is hit, roll a dice. On a 4+ that hit deals no damage. In addition, your units cannot be targeted by assault weapons that have advanced or heavy weapons that have moved. Your Flyers may never be chosen as targets for shooting."
Add-on for eldar:
"Wave serpents or vypers that have advanced last turn cannot be chosen as targets for shooting. Rangers may never be chosen as targets for shooting."
Does that still sound fair? Does that just hinder guard, SM or eldar shooting, or does it destroy it? At least that rule would screw everyone the same.
I read a few pages back that Orks were shooty in second edition.
I read that every so often in these kinds of threads. I think it would be worth the time to explain what it was about them that made them shooty and compare it to now.
as far as I can recall Orks were BS3. There were many negative modifiers to shooting in 2nd. And other things.
If I recall several weapons had +1 to hit or even +2 to hit at half range which isn't something we have not days. Bolters for example had a bonus to hit as did some pistols.
These were more or less blanket rules.
At range though where was the Ork shooting?
Artillery, SAG and Warbikers come to mind as do Lootas( Can't recall their proppa name) Who had Kustom Kombi weapons that didn't roll to hit but had random strength and damage effects, I may be off on that a little.
What else? I know I am not mentioning a good bit, because I can't remember. Is that really so different then now?
We have artillery and some weapons that's don't roll to hit. We have volume of fire. (Most of that has really short range.)
We took a hit by 8th edition dropping blast markers. but we gained flamer weapons hitting flyers. Grots still operative the artillery which no longer has a chance to explode when being used.
I guess my question is just how directly effected are we, as Orks, by -1 or -2 to hit armies? Just how prevalent are they.
I've said before that artillery and burnas are my go too's. I'm sticking with that so my boys can focus on what they do best right now, chopp things up! That said Shoota boys do have a place in my army. Mostly they haven't done too terribly much just yet but hold objectives or pick on small/wounded enemy units before I send in my killers. Honestly if I could have just one thing back it would be autto guns on my grots. I need BS4+ at 24" range threat bubbles. (That and I have 60 or more of those old grots!)
Orks have been shooty as well as choppy in just about every edition.
Jidmah wrote: How do you plan on fixing orks against armies that they cannot shoot?
They don't.
Blackie wrote: I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted.
How much should something cost if it's not going to be used because the rules are such that it cannot be used?
If a big shoota can never hit (and therefor effectively is a weapon with zero shots, no strength, and no damage), what's a fair price for it? 20 points? 15? 10? 5? Free? Or perhaps negative points, letting Orks take more choppas in exchange for their shooting being useless?
It is patently ridiculous, patently STUPID, that a lasgun has a chance to hurt a titan, yet the much deadlier Shoota has no chance of hurting a pansy eldar. It's just flat out dumb and bad game design, and yet bad game design is what we have to work with. Thus, the suggestion of "Orks always hit on a natural 6", which is how it should have been all along, except GW keeps carelessly tossing out tons and tons of to-hit modifiers, some of which get to patently ridiculous levels (necrons and chaos and eldar, notably).
It's just fething ridiculous that GW's half-assed game design decisions have lead us to this situation.
Ok Jidmah, Ignore how I have said that there should be a rule that every 6 is a automatic hit.
And yes Melissia, nobody want to fix orks. You should change your sing, you know? You are one of the persons with less good faith and honesty in a discussion that I have seen in this forum.
I think what you are missing here, is taht the claim isn't that orks are totally fine and needs no upgrade, but instead that your suggested upgrade is absurd and would throw large portions of the game out of whack.
I've yet to see anyone actually make an actual claim as to why such a thing is absurd.
Because you want an entire army to ignore the gimmick of a few select armies because you think it's unfair. Not everybody is playing Raven Guard, Alpha Legion, and...the one Craftworld, and you wish to punish those with this rule. Not to mention they're not even aiming in the first place. Based off that part of the fluff, they should actually be hitting on a 6 anyway.
Now is a -2 to hit ridiculous so that half your codex can't even hit the unit? Yeah absolutely. However, you can suffer the -1 penalty like everyone else and deal with it.
Yes, I don't care if they ignore the gimmick of a few select armies that are cut-and-paste portions of each other given that they have other strategems, warlord traits and such that should still be in effect.
As a result they are one of the worst armies for both shooting and move and shooting. The drop of assault/heavy weapons means that they'll be dealing 6+ to hit to begin with and heavy weapons will be massively penalized as a result even if they aren't forced to move while still costing an abnormal cost compared to armies that have higher BS but somehow cheaper weaponry.
Why are we letting a single factions trait within a book dictate the power of entire another book? Should we start cutting things that let units fire on deepstrikers as it now ignores that gimmick? Especially Craftworld now has the strongest anti-deepstrike stratagem with Forewarned? There are always abilities, traits, and stratagems that will allow an army to ignore specific things out of turn sequence, morale, or other things. But the ability to 5+ shoot with Orks oh no that's the greatest threat! Would you complain if it's say a Bad Moonz trait or Strategem?
1. Don't move with heavy weapons then. Super simple. I still don't move with them most of the time.
2. Everything has high cost because all the index armies are bizarrely priced. You guys keep complaining about this when the codex hasn't even been released yet...
3. Forewarned is a Psyker power or Strategem, and not an innate ability. Stupid comparison is stupid.
4. I'd absolutely be fine with that being a Strategem or Klan trait.
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Melissia wrote: Orks have been shooty as well as choppy in just about every edition.
Jidmah wrote: How do you plan on fixing orks against armies that they cannot shoot?
They don't.
Blackie wrote: I just think that many orks units and wargear are extremely overcosted.
How much should something cost if it's not going to be used because the rules are such that it cannot be used?
If a big shoota can never hit (and therefor effectively is a weapon with zero shots, no strength, and no damage), what's a fair price for it? 20 points? 15? 10? 5? Free? Or perhaps negative points, letting Orks take more choppas in exchange for their shooting being useless?
It is patently ridiculous, patently STUPID, that a lasgun has a chance to hurt a titan, yet the much deadlier Shoota has no chance of hurting a pansy eldar. It's just flat out dumb and bad game design, and yet bad game design is what we have to work with. Thus, the suggestion of "Orks always hit on a natural 6", which is how it should have been all along, except GW keeps carelessly tossing out tons and tons of to-hit modifiers, some of which get to patently ridiculous levels (necrons and chaos and eldar, notably).
It's just fething ridiculous that GW's half-assed game design decisions have lead us to this situation.
Yes because you're going to be facing so many -2 To Hit armies. Oh wait...
warhead01 wrote: I read a few pages back that Orks were shooty in second edition.
I read that every so often in these kinds of threads. I think it would be worth the time to explain what it was about them that made them shooty and compare it to now.
as far as I can recall Orks were BS3. There were many negative modifiers to shooting in 2nd. And other things.
If I recall several weapons had +1 to hit or even +2 to hit at half range which isn't something we have not days. Bolters for example had a bonus to hit as did some pistols.
These were more or less blanket rules.
At range though where was the Ork shooting?
Artillery, SAG and Warbikers come to mind as do Lootas( Can't recall their proppa name) Who had Kustom Kombi weapons that didn't roll to hit but had random strength and damage effects, I may be off on that a little.
What else? I know I am not mentioning a good bit, because I can't remember. Is that really so different then now?
We have artillery and some weapons that's don't roll to hit. We have volume of fire. (Most of that has really short range.)
We took a hit by 8th edition dropping blast markers. but we gained flamer weapons hitting flyers. Grots still operative the artillery which no longer has a chance to explode when being used.
I guess my question is just how directly effected are we, as Orks, by -1 or -2 to hit armies? Just how prevalent are they.
I've said before that artillery and burnas are my go too's. I'm sticking with that so my boys can focus on what they do best right now, chopp things up! That said Shoota boys do have a place in my army. Mostly they haven't done too terribly much just yet but hold objectives or pick on small/wounded enemy units before I send in my killers. Honestly if I could have just one thing back it would be autto guns on my grots. I need BS4+ at 24" range threat bubbles. (That and I have 60 or more of those old grots!)
Orks were probably the most powerful army in 2nd edition to be honest, easily the most powerful army I played in that edition (Chaos, Ravenwing, Orks in that edition).
They had:
1) Pulsa Rokkits were absurdly overpowered ridiculous rules-breaking monsters.
2) Looted vehicles with squig fuel injectors were amazing.
3) Flamer rules were stupid, basically, if you weren't wearing Terminator armor and got set on fire you ran around like an idiot until you rolled a 1 for the fire to go out.
4) Nobz were BS 3 at least, if not 4 and could get targeters on their Mega-Armor IIRC.
5) Orks counted as strategy rating 6 for the purposes of going first, they went first a lot.
My army in that edition was basically:
6 Pulsa Rokkits
1 squad of Gretchin to screen everything.
1 looted Hellhound with a squig fuel injector (this basically got it across the table and setting things on fire in the first turn)
3 Wartracks with Burnas (heavy flamers), I don't think they needed squig fuel injectors to get across and set folks on fire.
1 Big squad of nobz in mega-armor with heavy weapons (which back then were imperial style lascannons, missile launchers, and heavy bolters) hitting on a 2+ IIRC.
This army has been dead and impossible for a long time. However, it was beautifully broken for awhile, knock the opponent down with Pulsa Rokkits, light them on fire with flamers, watch them run around trying to put flames out while you shot them with nobz.
In short, yes, Orks in 2nd were *radically* different than they are now, on so many levels it's difficult to list them all.
I regularly face stygies dragoons. Cannot even shoot at them yhen they reach your lines with 3 attacks each, with a 1 point steategm transforming 15 attacks into about 30 wounding on 2's. Doea it seem fair not to be able to shoot something like that?
Edit: i should clarify, 15 attacks become 30 hits, wounding on 2's.
Both the morkanaut and the gorkanaut are close-combat oriented with very little shooting to speak of. And of the two the morkanaut is by far the worse option. And lootas are just not competitive right now. They are too fragile on foot and too expensive in a transport/bunker. But none of this has anything to do with negative hit-modifiers.
Our best shooting units are Kans, min-squad warbikers and shoota-boyz. Tankbustas are great also, but only in a mechanized or squig list.
You forgot KMKs. In my opinion, by far the best high strength ranged option in the ork codex, bar none. More shots with better AP than kans, more wounds, better range, and cheaper.
On the subject of Ork shooting; I'd like to see Tankbusta's "Tank Hunters" changed to "Big Game Hunters" - allowing them to reroll missed hits versus VEHICLES and also MONSTERS.
It feels bad they're only good versus VEHICLES; when there's a reasonable chance you'll also be facing MONSTERS, and Rokkits are the kind of guns you'd like to be aiming at them.
Plus, it's thematic - Vehicles, and monsters, are all large targets - the kind of things that they'd be aiming to take down.
fe40k wrote: On the subject of Ork shooting; I'd like to see Tankbusta's "Tank Hunters" changed to "Big Game Hunters" - allowing them to reroll missed hits versus VEHICLES and also MONSTERS.
It feels bad they're only good versus VEHICLES; when there's a reasonable chance you'll also be facing MONSTERS, and Rokkits are the kind of guns you'd like to be aiming at them.
Plus, it's thematic - Vehicles, and monsters, are all large targets - the kind of things that they'd be aiming to take down.
Very true. How does the poor tankbusta to know that the riptide and the dreadknight are NOT vehicles, so they shouldn't try shooting twice? Who told him?
fe40k wrote: On the subject of Ork shooting; I'd like to see Tankbusta's "Tank Hunters" changed to "Big Game Hunters" - allowing them to reroll missed hits versus VEHICLES and also MONSTERS.
It feels bad they're only good versus VEHICLES; when there's a reasonable chance you'll also be facing MONSTERS, and Rokkits are the kind of guns you'd like to be aiming at them.
Plus, it's thematic - Vehicles, and monsters, are all large targets - the kind of things that they'd be aiming to take down.
I think some of the disagreement when it comes to Orks ignoring to-hit modifiers might be due to assumptions about what else is going to be done to fix Ork shooting. Right now Ork shooting doesn't just have one problem, but a number of problems IMO. I don't think that a fixed 5+ would break the game as it is right now, but I'd rather GW try to fix Ork shooting in a number of other ways and make a change to the core rules that natural 6s always hit.
A big problem is that many shooty Ork units and/or ranged weapons are overcosted.
There's also a problem where these expensive Ork units tend to be squishy and protecting them is more difficult and/or more expensive than it used to be in the past. Cover isn't as good and is harder to get. Trukks and Battlewagons are better protection than they used to be due to vehicles changes and the newest Mob Rule not causing our units to kill themselves when the vehicle is destroyed. On the other hand they are so expensive that it is a pretty scary points investment to throw an expensive unit inside of them. A Battle Wagon full of Flash Gitz, Lootas or Tank Bustas is often ~500 points. (Also, Big Gunz are more squishy than they used to be.)
To-hit penalties are a problem, both ones that are built-in to enemies (Alpha Legion, Storm Ravens, etc.) and also ones that Orks suffer from moving/advancing and shooting. Many Ork shooting options are short-ranged, and those that are Heavy (Snazzguns, Grotzookas) suffer quite a bit from having to move so much to get into range. Shootas and Big Shootas don't seem too bad on Shoota Boyz, but more often that not it seems like they are still way better at Close Combat and if they are Advancing towards the enemy as fast as possible they get shot to ribbons. Once they start getting a -1 from Advancing Shootas and Big Shootas lose most of their appeal.
There are also a lot of things that I think have changed with the new edition (understatement) that GW hasn't fully addressed with the Ork Index (probably all the Indices, not just Orks). A lot of things that used to make Ork shooting good in previous editions were changed and while they don't exactly penalize Orks they went from rules that penalized Orks the least to rules that helped Orks the least. I'm not sure if that makes sense, but I'm talking about things other people have mentioned like the change to Twin-Linked barely helping the Orks while massively helping others, and snap-firing changing from a fixed 6+ to hit to a -1 was mostly no change for Orks but a big change for high BS armies. I don't think these changes are necessarily bad, I just think Ork's rules and points values haven't yet changed to truly match the current edition. Some units also just put out a sad amount of dakka under the new rules (SAG, Stompa, etc.) but I also chalk that up to the Indices being get-us-by rush jobs that weren't supposed to be perfect. Hopefully all of this will get fixed between the Codex and Chapter Approved.
techsoldaten wrote: How hard is it to fill out an Ork Brigade detachment with the proper elites / fast attack / heavy weapons?
Asking because GW will likely see Stratagems as a way of solving the problem of Ork shooting. Will not be very useful unless you can get enough command points to make it work.
Making an Ork Brigade is pretty easy if you're going for a mostly footslogging Green Tide type of list.
I'm pretty optimistic for the Codex*. I think that Stratagems will probably play a part in fixing Ork shooting, but as we've seen with the Eldar Codex I think a lot of Ork units and weapons will see a significant cost reduction. I also think that it is entirely possible that we will see Clan-specific rules and Warlord Traits that buff shooting. Finally, I wouldn't be surprised to see tweaks to some weapons and units to make them more viable (although I think it will take more than Grinding Advance to fix the Killkannon).
For example, maybe Bad Moons detachments will get a rule that they can move and shoot Heavy weapons without penalty and Advance and shoot Assault weapons without penalty. That would make Flash Gitz** and Shoota Boyz a lot better. Maybe the Bad Moons warlord trait will be that all Bad Moons units within 6" can add +1 to their to-hit rolls. That would really help out a Warboss advancing with Shoota Boyz or a KFF Big Mek hanging back with Kustom Mega Kannons.
*I'm also scared that they're going to cut a lot of fun Ork stuff.
**I know Flash Gitz don't have a Clan keyword. I hope this is something they change with the Codex. I know Flash Gitz often forsake their clans and become Freebootas, but they're also supposed to be one of the common Bad Moon units and if they get cut off from all Clan-specific benefits that seems like it could be bad.
There are a ton of minor fixes in terms of points changes, stratagems and unit profile tweaks that could do a lot to help Ork shooting. Too many to list easily.
Doing nothing screws over the orks, dropping them to absolute bottom tier.
Orks Ignoring the rule eliminates the opponent's army / chapter trait. Bad luck for that opponent who drew 2 ork armies in the tournament.
creating a 6+ limit means the orks are still screwed over (losing 50% of the most important phase in the game is VERY bad.)
If the orks are compensated for losing half of their shooting, by either doubling their shots or cutting their points to silly amounts, then NON "-1 to hit" armies will be tabled by orks (suddenly 2000 points of ork shooting becomes 4000.)
There are no good answers.
The only fix is for GW to delete all of those -1 to hit rules, replacing them with something else. This makes them look like utter incompetent arrseholes.
Some of our most shooty units should just be bs4. Gits are bs4 with heavy weapons. Granted they're still quite underwhelming cause they're like 40-50% overpriced, bs4 orks are still a thing. Dakkajets are bs4 if they shoot one target. Grot gunners are all bs4. I don't mind regular orks to be bs5. Suits them well for points. But dedicated shooty stuff should shoot better. And it's better done with slightly better bs than slightly larger bucket of dice when you also consider to-hit modifiers and time consumption.
JimOnMars while I don't think any one answer taken to the extreme is a good answer, I do think that more moderate implementations of several answers at once would work.
I think that most Ork shooting units could some buffs or point reductions, just not stupid powerful buffs or point reductions to silly levels. I think that could be done without creating an invincible Ork gunline that tables everything that doesn't have a -1 to hit.
I also think it would be a good idea to have a rule that natural 6s always hit. That would make it so units could always interact, and it would do so without completing nullifying an army's Chapter Tactics or equivalent.
I would guess that both of those things together would combine to make it so that Ork shooting that is relatively balanced but also never irrelevant against certain armies.
Of course GW has to do something, and I don't think they'll just leave the issue entirely unaddressed, but we will probably have to wait for our codex to see any significant change.
koooaei wrote: Some of our most shooty units should just be bs4. Gits are bs4 with heavy weapons. Granted they're still quite underwhelming cause they're like 40-50% overpriced, bs4 orks are still a thing. Dakkajets are bs4 if they shoot one target. Grot gunners are all bs4. I don't mind regular orks to be bs5. Suits them well for points. But dedicated shooty stuff should shoot better. And it's better done with slightly better bs than slightly larger bucket of dice when you also consider to-hit modifiers and time consumption.
I do think that unit tweaks, including possibly making some units BS 4+, could be a good idea.
I've been thinking recently that it would be fluffy to say that fighting while strapped into a giant gun carriage is difficult, and GW could give Lootas -1 Attack and make them WS 4+ to signify that. That would give them further reason to drop the cost of Lootas and not put them in a weird position where they're supposed to be a shooting unit but theoretically they can beat up Guardsmen in melee and therefore there is an expectation that they pay for that ability.
I'd pretty much like the loota to simply be better. Get a 4+ or 5+ armor save, get d3+1 shots and bs4. Now that'd probably be worth 17 ppm. And that's much better than 10 ppm lootas.
But that would be a SM profile. Orks models with 1W should always have 6+ save and bs5+ IMHO. Bad aim and bad saves are part of the orks' DNA.
Yes because you're going to be facing so many -2 To Hit armies.
I agree. How many armies can invalidate orks' shooting completely? A fixed bs6+ can be very useful against those but in the other games? Even without any modifiers orks shooting is extremely lackluster, I would accept if a few armies have the tricks to invalidate orks' shooting, but that's not how you usually face. I'd like orks shooting to be decent instead, not particularly impressive but still something that can be considered when making the lists. Then if 2-3 armies can invalidate our shooting amen, we'll play choppy against them.
Doing nothing screws over the orks, dropping them to absolute bottom tier.
Orks Ignoring the rule eliminates the opponent's army / chapter trait. Bad luck for that opponent who drew 2 ork armies in the tournament.
creating a 6+ limit means the orks are still screwed over (losing 50% of the most important phase in the game is VERY bad.)
If the orks are compensated for losing half of their shooting, by either doubling their shots or cutting their points to silly amounts, then NON "-1 to hit" armies will be tabled by orks (suddenly 2000 points of ork shooting becomes 4000.)
There are no good answers.
The only fix is for GW to delete all of those -1 to hit rules, replacing them with something else. This makes them look like utter incompetent arrseholes.
There are no good answers.
I just disagree with that. I think there are many good answers:
1) The damage output of many Ork shooting units are fine. They are just way too fragile for the cost (17-27 points per model with a 6+ save). This problem is not caused by negative hit-modifiers, and meddling about with hit-modifiers will do nothing to fix that.
2) Another related problem is that some of our shooting units needs to be moving about in a transport because of 1), but they cannot hit anything when doing so because of their Heavy weapon profile. Giving Flashgitz and Lootas an assault profile instead would solve a lot of problems, and would not be overpowered in any way.
3) Solving the fragility isuue is realtively straightforward: Let deffguns, burnas, rokkits and big shootas be weapon upgrades to a unit with an ordinary shoota-boy profile. Then you could either take some ablative wounds or put them all in a trukk. The same could be done with Flashgitz. Make them base 17 points with a 4+ save, and make the snazzgun a 8-10 point upgrade. We know that Nobz with ammo runts has at least acceptable durability, and that Flash Gits has somewhat acceptable shooting damage output.
4) A simple (and warranted) point reduction for Big Shootas and Rokkits to 4 and 8 points (down from 6 and 12) would help further, and so would letting the twin option cost 2x the single option (rather than costing a premium).
5) If you could take a special weapon for every 5 boyz rather than for every 10, then shootaboyz would suddenly become half-decent shooting units with some flexibility.
6) I fail to see why some here think that Orks are hurt this much by negative hit-modifiers? We are perhaps the faction that can tolerate negative hit-modfiers best of all. Think about what -2 to hit would do to Imperial Guard or Tau. Or Tesla Immmortals. Even shooty Ork armies have decent melee so we will be fine. The same is true for Tyranids.
7) An exception to 6) is fliers with Airborne and Hard-to-hit. Orks can do _NOTHING_ to these fliers (and no, Stormboyz does not work). But this problem is not a general problem with negative hit-modifers, and should be solved in other ways. Like giving Orks an ability to ignore the Hard-to Hit rule, or let Rokkits do double damage to fliers, or making the tractor-gun really good.
8) And lets us not forget, that Orks has some very nice units that are largely invulnerable to shooting themselves. Getting hit by 8-15 wounds of smite a turn from our untargetable weirdboyz is no fun for non-horde players.
Oh, and I totally disagree with giving tankbustas a reroll against MCs as they have against vehicles. The Tankbusta reroll is one of the bigger problems in the Orks index. It is the tremendous damage output against vehicles that makes tankbustas into such an expensive glasscannon. If you reduce their cost so that they become viable in infantry lists, then they become broken against vehicles. Adding to their damage output compounds the problem.
It would be much better to remove the reroll, drop the cost of the rokkits to 8 points, and give tankbustas access to ammorunts. Or just not have lootas, burnaboyz and lootas be separate units. Let them be wargear options on an elite boy-slot.
Such lootas would be almost 3 times more killy than autocannon havoks point-per-point. While remaining only ~1.2-1.3 times less durable. That's a glass cannon approach. Not a great thing for i-go-you-go system we currently have. For the game to be more tactical, things should actually be less killy to mitigate the most important dice roll in the game. The dice for who goes first.
One little thing that just came to mind, why not +1 BS based on unit size just decide how many models each unit must have to gain that bonus. maybe for shoota boys it's 12 or more models and lootas it 9 or more. something like this could be used for quite a few units. Maybe burnas could use it for 1+D3 or 5 2+D3 for 10 and 3+D3 for 15, just as how I would /could see it continue as a theme for mobs. It could be different
Orks are still squishy so it's only and advantage for a few turns and can be countered by killing Orks.
Ork unit size could influence both the BS to hit roll and extra effects, maybe adding an extra shot or something.
With the disadvantage of a 6+ save it might be reasonable. ?
me. I got stuck thinking Shootas were 3 shots instead of 2 (Big Shootas)... still, the concept is there. :3 I'm a runty squig. 
) really are - and that's before any negative to hit modifiers...
