Celestial Dragon Guard and Celestial Dragon Crossbows.
There's a surprising lack of ranged elements in this initial batch of kits. No Peasant Archers, no Jade Crossbows, no Crane Gunners, no Iron Hail Gunners.
Some additional info from the Preview Show for anyone that would rather not watch it:
Jade Warriors have the Defensive Stance special rule: If they remain stationary, they can re-roll armours saves of a 1 in the combat phase.
Jade Lancers can fight in two ranks on the charge. Furthermore they count as charging next turn when they follow up.
The Ogre Loader is an upgrade that lets the warmachines fire twice in a phase once per game. They're also armed with bombs for some additional close range fire support and increases the movement of the warmachines.
The Grand Cannon slows units nearby to where the shot lands due to how thunderous the blast is.
The Rocket Battery has different ammunition types for anti-horde and anti-monster.
Sky Lanterns can spot for the warmachines, letting you draw line of sight from it instead.
The Magistrate can be on foot or in the Sky Lantern.
The Sentinels have different rules based on the variant: Teracotta has Regenerate, Granite has a better armour save, and Warpstone reduces the toughness of nearby enemies. They also mention Obsidian ones existing (might be lore only though). Combined with the Jade ones mentioned in the Warcomm article, that might mean 5 different variants in total?
The Shugengan has Hero and Lord versions, with the Hero starting as a level 1 Wizard and the Lord version being able to be level 4.
Gate Masters also have Hero and Lord versions.
Including Miao Ying in your army lets you upgrade units into (Celestial) Dragon Guard.
Im happy to say I told you so - some of yall were convinced it would be 2-3 years to get through all the core armies, that they would revisit legacy armies before adding anything, and kislev/cathay would be 5+ years away. But I said otherwise and that it would take roughly a year, perhaps a bit more to get the core armies out and that wed have the first new army by summer 25.
Technically i was wrong on a couple points, I said Kislev would come first and that there would be a bigger refresh of Beastmen featuring an updated model range, but close enough.
chaos0xomega wrote: Im happy to say I told you so - some of yall were convinced it would be 2-3 years to get through all the core armies, that they would revisit legacy armies before adding anything, and kislev/cathay would be 5+ years away. But I said otherwise and that it would take roughly a year, perhaps a bit more to get the core armies out and that wed have the first new army by summer 25.
Technically i was wrong on a couple points, I said Kislev would come first and that there would be a bigger refresh of Beastmen featuring an updated model range, but close enough.
Recently I was expecting Cathay to be the latter quarter of this year so I was thinking about now we might have seen a single model or something - the full release was a big blow-away and that beastmen and WE are side by side suggests GW are speeding up Old World releases. Which honestly is a good thing cause Cathay marks the big turning point. Hopefully after them we see either Kislev or the first re-work of old kits for classic armies starting to come out.
#2 Is it me, or does the Cathay army look like a nightmare to transport?
Dude, since you got here you're flooding literally every topic in the forum with your posts and you're telling me you missed the mantic thread that's always on Page 1 of the news?
#2 Is it me, or does the Cathay army look like a nightmare to transport?
Dude, since you got here you're flooding literally every topic in the forum with your posts and you're telling me you missed the mantic thread that's always on Page 1 of the news?
Sorry, I don't read games I don't play. If you want to hide from me just make a post about about a non GW game and I'll never find you.
Okay, having now seen Cathay, I admit that AOS was a terrible mistake and should never have happened. The Dragons and Sentinel are ****ing awesome.
Then setting eyes upon the Beastmen and Woodelves...I take it back. Ye Olde sculpts from when I was still firmly in school. And that is now a long time ago...oh dear, GW is still using metal of all materials.
SamusDrake wrote: Okay, having now seen Cathay, I admit that AOS was a terrible mistake and should never have happened. The Dragons and Sentinel are ****ing awesome.
Then setting eyes upon the Beastmen and Woodelves...I take it back. Ye Olde sculpts from when I was still firmly in school. And that is now a long time ago...oh dear, GW is still using metal of all materials.
See, I'm looking at these Beastmen and Woodelves and think: Yeah, they're still looking worse than the first lotr minis from the same period... but still better than most new AoS stuff. And metal... well I like metal. GW made me like metal with their terrible failcast. (And other producers with just awesome metal sculpts).
I laughed at the Square Based guys for thinking Cathay was coming early this year, much like they thought Kislev was coming soon last year. It seems GW has hit the gas on these releases compared to what we say in 2024, though no release dates yet so no guarantees of when these boxes will actually hit shelves. I wonder how much of the Cathay army are they willing to not have out when the book drops.
Again, I’ll own up to being wrong. I did not believe GW were taking Cathay seriously, but they nailed it with the miniatures.
My one niggle of a complaint is the dragon, which looks consistent with the Elf-ridden dragons…So why does the cannon, sculpted by people who live alongside real dragons, look like a real life Chinese dragon nothing like those Cathay dragons?
Shakalooloo wrote: So, will the balloon just be immune to melee attacks? No way anyone shy of a giant will be able to reach it.
Yeah I'm not sure how they are going to balance it. It if it were just a spotter that probably would be fine, but a unit that can both attack and is immune to most other units sounds like a bit much.
Maybe it's GW's way to force you to buy dragons and artillery, I dunno.
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Again, I’ll own up to being wrong. I did not believe GW were taking Cathay seriously, but they nailed it with the miniatures.
My one niggle of a complaint is the dragon, which looks consistent with the Elf-ridden dragons…So why does the cannon, sculpted by people who live alongside real dragons, look like a real life Chinese dragon nothing like those Cathay dragons?
The dragon has hair and a moustache, so at least in that way it's different from the regular Warhammer dragons.
This is some real personal growth here. I look forwards to the post when the first of the Legacy armies makes it's way to TOW in coming years.
For what it's worth I don't believe 'Cathay/Kislev are 5 years away' was ever a majority opinion in this thread. Most people suggested they were at some intermediate period beyond the 9 returning factions being released, what people weren't prepared for was the uptick in release rate, which seems to have pulled Cathay in 2025 and that Cathay would appear immediately after the final returning race.
And metal... well I like metal. GW made me like metal with their terrible failcast. (And other producers with just awesome metal sculpts).
Sigh...yes, twice in one day I must take it back; metal is indeed better than s***cast.
It really isn’t. It’s harder to work with, less fun to paint and repaint and repaint, heavier to carry, and much harder to convert. Finecast was prone to miscasts, but that’s not the customer’s problem when a quick phone call to customer service will get a replacement sent out right away. By the third or fourth replacement you will have enough perfectly cast parts to build a flawless mini—and have tons of bits left over for conversion work. Sure beats a model that needs to be drilled and pinned to keep his arms.
And metal... well I like metal. GW made me like metal with their terrible failcast. (And other producers with just awesome metal sculpts).
Sigh...yes, twice in one day I must take it back; metal is indeed better than s***cast.
It really isn’t. It’s harder to work with, less fun to paint and repaint and repaint, heavier to carry, and much harder to convert. Finecast was prone to miscasts, but that’s not the customer’s problem when a quick phone call to customer service will get a replacement sent out right away. By the third or fourth replacement you will have enough perfectly cast parts to build a flawless mini—and have tons of bits left over for conversion work. Sure beats a model that needs to be drilled and pinned to keep his arms.
Surely sounds like more hassle to me than just getting the proper superglue for a metal miniature The only metal models I ever drilled were lotr trolls and I never had anything fall apart (unlike with failcast).
I'm not one to condemn resin per se(I have perfectly fine resin models from at least 5 manufacturers, including FW), but failcast literally is on a level with mantics early pvc nonsense - and GW even dared to rise prices for turning their perfectly fine metal models into crap.
Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.
Dysartes wrote: Having not played Total War Warhammer (any of them), how were Cathay presented in that regard in those games?
There's actually a noticeable sense of slavish, if not outright cult-like deference of the human population towards the Dragon Siblings and the Emperor in what little written content there is in Total War.
You'd be excused if you thought some of the lines came straight from Central Committee approved pamphlets.
GreycapTheUnwise wrote: Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.
These are an oversees expedition to be fair. You're less likely to ship the peasants half way round the world.
To me design and sculpt work look in line with the Warhammer aesthetic from the Goldsword or Island of Blood era. Yeah, as digital sculpts they’re more clean and regular than the hand-sculpted era, but they also aren’t goon-faced melon-hands.
It really isn’t. It’s harder to work with, less fun to paint and repaint and repaint, heavier to carry, and much harder to convert. Finecast was prone to miscasts, but that’s not the customer’s problem when a quick phone call to customer service will get a replacement sent out right away. By the third or fourth replacement you will have enough perfectly cast parts to build a flawless mini—and have tons of bits left over for conversion work. Sure beats a model that needs to be drilled and pinned to keep his arms.
Bought the Finecast for the Farseer & Warlocks, and omg the clean up job was such a horrible experience I swore never to repeat. Metal still feels like a relic of the 90s, but at least you had to go out of your way to actually break the model whereas Finecast is so damn fragile.
I do agree about conversions, though, as a handsaw is a must!
GreycapTheUnwise wrote: Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.
Cathay's army in Total Warhammer had peasant troops (with melee and archery versions)
I guess as pointed out by another poster, it wouldn't make much sense for peasants to be in the army in WtOW because it's an overseas expedition. (in Total War meanwhile, a lot of the fighting in the story was in Cathay's homelands). Even Ming needed a handwave in the Warhammer Community preview to justify why she's there.
The TW game names and features several children of the Dragon Emperor and thus you can in theory have more than one dragon, they will just have to be different named dragons. Though its unlikely we'll see a second for a good long time yet.
Overread wrote: The TW game names and features several children of the Dragon Emperor and thus you can in theory have more than one dragon, they will just have to be different named dragons. Though its unlikely we'll see a second for a good long time yet.
Once we know more about the Arcane Journal’s contents, we’ll have a better idea if there’s another wave or two or three to come.
I expect we might get second model wave but I wouldn't expect another large dragon model. I'd more expect smaller named or unamed hero models and infantry and such.
Another dragon is more a second edition style release at best in my view.
On the subject of peasants it might be for this first wave GW chose not to include them because typical peasant style army building can involve a big up-front model investment in money and time to build. This can burn people out before they've even got to the table for the first time. So having a new army that's a bit more focused on the elite units in the roster or is currently balanced around not having peasants might be a sensible move to have them work when fewer in number. Then launch huge swarms of cheaper chaff units later when you've already got a strong bed of active players and where the elite approach is still viable for newbies and those who choose too.
Shakalooloo wrote: So, will the balloon just be immune to melee attacks? No way anyone shy of a giant will be able to reach it.
Yeah I'm not sure how they are going to balance it. It if it were just a spotter that probably would be fine, but a unit that can both attack and is immune to most other units sounds like a bit much.
Maybe it's GW's way to force you to buy dragons and artillery, I dunno.
GreycapTheUnwise wrote: Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.
Their relative 'sanity' has been one of my issues with the faction since they were launched with TWW3. They almost feel like 3e Tau. I'm hoping that with a 2nd edition TOW release or whenever they revisit Cathay that they darken them up a bit, drag in some darker bits from Chinese mythology, add more strife and turmoil within Cathayn society. The only real darkness in the faction right now is the old fluff about Tzeentchian cults and hints that the Dragons are rather more controlling of society than they let on. They're still cool though.
New army time for me. Been hoping for Cathay for a while.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
BobtheInquisitor wrote: Again, I’ll own up to being wrong. I did not believe GW were taking Cathay seriously, but they nailed it with the miniatures.
My one niggle of a complaint is the dragon, which looks consistent with the Elf-ridden dragons…So why does the cannon, sculpted by people who live alongside real dragons, look like a real life Chinese dragon nothing like those Cathay dragons?
It's probably a stylised rendition, like how the Merwyrm rendition on High Elf Seaguard shields looks quite different to the actual beast.
GreycapTheUnwise wrote: Honestly I'm mixed on the Grand Cathay stuff, they're technically well-designed and I do like the artillery and balloons a lot, but they do seem a bit too...I dunno, "heroic" for Warhammer. Like compared to the Bretonnians and Empire, they seem very sanitized and clean and a bit "MMO" for my tastes; no poorly-equipped peasant troops or anything like that (doubly weird for the Ming China inspired faction). It almost smacks of wanting to appease Chinese investors who won't have their proxy-faction be remotely negatively-represented, somehow.
Their relative 'sanity' has been one of my issues with the faction since they were launched with TWW3. They almost feel like 3e Tau. I'm hoping that with a 2nd edition TOW release or whenever they revisit Cathay that they darken them up a bit, drag in some darker bits from Chinese mythology, add more strife and turmoil within Cathayn society. The only real darkness in the faction right now is the old fluff about Tzeentchian cults and hints that the Dragons are rather more controlling of society than they let on. They're still cool though.
There are darker elements - just like all real and warhammer factions - for instance "Those in other nations may deny it, but all mortals desire control. To be controlled, that is. Why else would they conjure these northern gods that obsess in dominating the very creatures that brought them into being. ~ Yuan Bo (one of the Dragon Lord)
They have the Jade Vampires lurking, the Moon Empress is likely not even a Dragon but some shapeshifter from the moon and has her secret police of Onyx Crowmen.
Its a bit like saying that the High Elves are too nice - plenty of dark undercurrents
And metal... well I like metal. GW made me like metal with their terrible failcast. (And other producers with just awesome metal sculpts).
Sigh...yes, twice in one day I must take it back; metal is indeed better than s***cast.
It really isn’t. It’s harder to work with, less fun to paint and repaint and repaint, heavier to carry, and much harder to convert. Finecast was prone to miscasts, but that’s not the customer’s problem when a quick phone call to customer service will get a replacement sent out right away. By the third or fourth replacement you will have enough perfectly cast parts to build a flawless mini—and have tons of bits left over for conversion work. Sure beats a model that needs to be drilled and pinned to keep his arms.
I never bought anything made in 'Finecast'. I never saw a single blister where everything was intact, and with that I SURELY was not going to gamble on anything sight unseen.
For THAT level of premium price? I expect it to be right first time, every time. I do NOT expect to need to take the time and effort to call customer service OVER AND OVER AGAIN to get all the parts I need for a product I paid a premium price for.
I got a single Finecast model, Blood Angles Astorath, and well that got all of the problems people are talking about, including the model bending over over time because it was to heavy for the scrolls that were supposed to give him a hovering look
there is a reason GW rather bring back models that were released in finecast with metal over getting finecast out again
The facebook page posted pictures of the warhawk riders and centigors. They're the older metal miniatures.
I'm happy to see that the centigor chieftain they showed off alongside ghorros warhoof is the same centigor from the beastmen raiders mordheim warband. I have most of the rest of that warband but he never shows up solo on ebay.
kodos wrote: I got a single Finecast model, Blood Angles Astorath, and well that got all of the problems people are talking about, including the model bending over over time because it was to heavy for the scrolls that were supposed to give him a hovering look
there is a reason GW rather bring back models that were released in finecast with metal over getting finecast out again
Sod it, I'm going to ask a rookie question and face the ridicule; why not use FW resin instead? Would it mean redesigning the model from scratch?
kodos wrote: I got a single Finecast model, Blood Angles Astorath, and well that got all of the problems people are talking about, including the model bending over over time because it was to heavy for the scrolls that were supposed to give him a hovering look
there is a reason GW rather bring back models that were released in finecast with metal over getting finecast out again
Sod it, I'm going to ask a rookie question and face the ridicule; why not use FW resin instead? Would it mean redesigning the model from scratch?
Different casting materials perform differently to each other. The big attraction of Finecast to GW was low toxicity and ability to use the same masters as the metal cast models when making the moulds.
So its easy for Gw to just step back and re-tool for metal once more instead of going for forgeworld resin where they might well have to entirely retool from the ground up with new designs to take account for the small differences in casting.
It's also why a lot of the kits that are coming out in Forgeworld resin have been redone in some way, either with an entirely new model included in the mix (Carrion) or new details (Casket of Souls, War Wagon). If they need to retool from the ground up anyway because the original masters have been damaged or lost, might as well spend some time addings some touch ups here or there.
(I'm still baffled the War Wagon was Made to Order only despite they obvious effort they put into it)
It might be the War Waggon is set to get one of the few new plastic updates so they didn't want the flood the market with them.
Or perhaps it ate-up the mould quicker so they just did a one-and-done because they couldn't justify the continued mould replacement costs long term
Some models can cause more mould damage than others. I recall in the past Warmachine had a Skorn model that came off market for ages because it would destroy the moulds so fast that replacing them ate into the income of the model too much.
I can believe that, IIRC one of the very early attempts by Citadel at a scenery detailing piece (a metal clump of mushrooms) was such a mold ripper they didn't even bother releasing it.
Personally I love metal miniatures. I used to hate them but now I'm more experienced and adept at pinning (and the use of CA glue activator spray) I've fallen completely for them. There's something really satisfying about the weight of a nice lump of pewter, not to mention that even if you completely mess up a paintjob, stripping them is incredibly easy.
Different casting materials perform differently to each other. The big attraction of Finecast to GW was low toxicity and ability to use the same masters as the metal cast models when making the moulds.
So its easy for Gw to just step back and re-tool for metal once more instead of going for forgeworld resin where they might well have to entirely retool from the ground up with new designs to take account for the small differences in casting.
This isn’t accurate. You’re confusing the mould-making process and the casting process. Metal models are spin cast in round rubber moulds – the metal is poured into a hole in the centre of the mould while the mould is spinning at high speed, inside the casting machine, so that the metal is spread to all parts of the mould. The metal cools quickly, and hardens as it does so, and so can be pulled from the mould within a couple of minutes. Forge World resin models are made by pouring the resin into (usually roughly cube-shaped) silicone mould. The resin cures – hardens – because of a chemical reaction, which takes time.
The moulds for either method can equally well be made from metal master castings of the kind GW would maintain in their mould room archives. You can’t pour metal into that kind of silicone mould, but you can make a silicone mould from a metal master. There are differences in the casting process (there’s no spinning to distribute the resin in a silicone mould, and the air bubbles have to escape upwards, often aided by a vacuum chamber), so small areas might need to be filled or thickened to work well in one kind of mould or the other, and the way in which the master models are attached to sprues, and how the feeds and vents are cut into the moulds, are both a bit different, but this is all well within the normal mould-making process. It most definitely does not require a new design or a new master model designed from scratch.
Finecast models are produced using the spin casting method, so they can be made in the same machines as metal models, and thus the resin needs the property of curing quickly. Finecast models require far more extensive frames around them than metal models, though, so there’s actually quite a lot of re-mastering required from the original metal master castings, arguably more so than adapting those same master castings for casting in Forge World resin.
What is being produced in metal and what is being moved to Forge World resin is more likely just a matter of the volume of material, and the subsequent margin GW can make, in the niche cases for particularly large, thick and heavy models.
The term ‘tooling’ is used exclusively in reference to the kind of injection-moulding used for plastic models.
This isn’t accurate. You’re confusing the mould-making process and the casting process. Metal models are spin cast in round rubber moulds – the metal is poured into a hole in the centre of the mould while the mould is spinning at high speed, inside the casting machine, so that the metal is spread to all parts of the mould. The metal cools quickly, and hardens as it does so, and so can be pulled from the mould within a couple of minutes. Forge World resin models are made by pouring the resin into (usually roughly cube-shaped) silicone mould. The resin cures – hardens – because of a chemical reaction, which takes time.
Yes and no, Finecast Resin was specific developed to replace Metal in the Spin Casting process, this is something different from regular PU Resin and the resin why Finecast exists in the first place and why GW can and could easily swap the materials.
And in this case it is easy for them to just replace Finecast with Metal, despite the models never had a metal release, because it is the same casting process instead of using PU Resin
And THIS is the exact reason I try to convert up plastic models wherever possible. I'll only get pewter stuff in package used model lots and only keep them if it's far too expensive to use plastic models as a replacement.
METAL is God's own casting medium, formed in the furnace of an exploding star, pulled from the bones of the Earth, shaped by FIRE it is immortal and invincible. The only way METAL could be better is if they shipped it red hot in thermos bottles so you could enjoy the glow of the forge.
Honestly I'd rather paint a hundred one-part metal infantry than assemble these 10 or 20 part plastic models GW is inflicting on us. Yeah for a character sure, but Joey the Bog Standard Rifleman does not need his left foot to be a separate part!
Kid_Kyoto wrote: METAL is God's own casting medium, formed in the furnace of an exploding star, pulled from the bones of the Earth, shaped by FIRE it is immortal and invincible. The only way METAL could be better is if they shipped it red hot in thermos bottles so you could enjoy the glow of the forge.
Honestly I'd rather paint a hundred one-part metal infantry than assemble these 10 or 20 part plastic models GW is inflicting on us. Yeah for a character sure, but Joey the Bog Standard Rifleman does not need his left foot to be a separate part!
This is my experience. The 'snap fit' AOS Chaos Knights were more annoying and took longer to put together than the metal chaos ogres I got.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Another pro for metal is it's the least risky to strip paint without damaging it so it opens up the second hand market to already painted minis, where trying on plastic or resin could risk destroying them.
That's why I love the North Star kits so much - simple assembly that still allows for a lot of poseability rather than the GW double whammy of pain in the arse assembly and zero poseability.
I love metal miniatures too but they are a pain to work with and transport. I'll never forget when I shipped my KR multicase of Trollbloods to Germany and opened it to find every single one broken and chipped despite the foam. I still wonder what they did with my case to cause that. Probably chucked it against the truck wall.
I have bought GW platsic units where every model was a duplicate, just ad shield and you are good to go.
I have bought GW plastic units where legs torso and arms are interchangable. Easy and quick assembly and room for options, but not alot of dynamics in pose.
I have bought GW plastic units where the models are annoying to assemble, but once you follow the numbers in the guide you come out with 5 uniqe models you may repeat in a weird repetetition of uniqe dynamic poses.
My point beeing, its strange to argue for metal beeing superior based on style and quick asembly.
And just for the record, I have bought many metal units and monsters -dont even like it out of nostalgia. Although, love some metal characters because of nostalgia.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: METAL is God's own casting medium, formed in the furnace of an exploding star, pulled from the bones of the Earth, shaped by FIRE it is immortal and invincible. The only way METAL could be better is if they shipped it red hot in thermos bottles so you could enjoy the glow of the forge.
Honestly I'd rather paint a hundred one-part metal infantry than assemble these 10 or 20 part plastic models GW is inflicting on us. Yeah for a character sure, but Joey the Bog Standard Rifleman does not need his left foot to be a separate part!
Now who can argue with that! I think we're all indebted to you, sir, for stating what clearly needed to be said. I'm particularly glad these new lovely Dakkanauts are here today to hear your speech. Not only was it authentic tabletop gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.
Kid_Kyoto wrote: METAL is God's own casting medium, formed in the furnace of an exploding star, pulled from the bones of the Earth, shaped by FIRE it is immortal and invincible. The only way METAL could be better is if they shipped it red hot in thermos bottles so you could enjoy the glow of the forge.
Honestly I'd rather paint a hundred one-part metal infantry than assemble these 10 or 20 part plastic models GW is inflicting on us. Yeah for a character sure, but Joey the Bog Standard Rifleman does not need his left foot to be a separate part!
Now who can argue with that! I think we're all indebted to you, sir, for stating what clearly needed to be said. I'm particularly glad these new lovely Dakkanauts are here today to hear your speech. Not only was it authentic tabletop gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.
WHAT ARE WE MADE OF?
Don't worry- when Warmachine first came out they made fun of GW for using plastic models, and swore they'd never release plastic.
LSG were sold 5 to a sprue without command independently of IoB.
Within IoB, they were spread across 5 sprues to make 10 models - there were 2 identical sprues containing 3 LSG each + clanrats, ellyrian reavers, swormasters of hoeth, etc, plus one sprue of 4 LSG including banner and musician (plus more swordmasters and reavers). Then there was a sprue that had the champions sword and one spear (+ clanrats and rat ogres), and another sprue with 2 more spears (plus the lord on hippogriff or whatever, as well as the clawlord or warplock emginseer or whatever that was)
Im not sure how the new kit is set up, but im assuming they are mostly making use of the 5 model sprue plus a retooled new sprue containing the command bits.
skeleton wrote: Would normaly be 30 or 32 but it can be, its the sprues from Island of blood, dont know how they sat on the sprue.
The IoB sprues had them as 2x3(on the duplicated sprues) plus 4 on another sprue. The Webstore only additional models done later where a recut with 5 per sprue. This most likely uses those recuts them a recut with the command and 2 extra normies.
Cathay look great and imo show some pretty good commitment to the game for a whole new army in plastic to come out.
Says good things for the game going forward, except the question of supposedly legacy armies given that any one of them can 'cathay expedition' their way into the old world so there is absolutely 0 reason for them not to exist in the game.
except of course that they don't want to lose the IP power of those factions to prop up AoS...
Kid_Kyoto wrote: METAL is God's own casting medium, formed in the furnace of an exploding star, pulled from the bones of the Earth, shaped by FIRE it is immortal and invincible. The only way METAL could be better is if they shipped it red hot in thermos bottles so you could enjoy the glow of the forge.
Honestly I'd rather paint a hundred one-part metal infantry than assemble these 10 or 20 part plastic models GW is inflicting on us. Yeah for a character sure, but Joey the Bog Standard Rifleman does not need his left foot to be a separate part!
Now who can argue with that! I think we're all indebted to you, sir, for stating what clearly needed to be said. I'm particularly glad these new lovely Dakkanauts are here today to hear your speech. Not only was it authentic tabletop gibberish, it expressed a courage little seen in this day and age.
Sir, I think you'll find metal is the casting medium of Chaos.
- Hard as nails and prone to draw blood with its pointy bits
- Lustrous and bedazzling when naked, inspiring excessive avarice and hoarding in Oldhammer collectors
- A toxic health hazard prone to rot (if it contains lead), not to mention often sold in BLISTER packs, eww
- Paint job easily removed and replaced many times over, enabling any one model to repeatedly change hands and allegiance in mutable and conspiratorial fashion
- Difficult to break into smaller parts and hence remaining ... undivided
I'm firmly in the 'metal is best' camp. It's the weight. Feels like you got your money's worth. Unless it's on a flying stand, in which case it's a recipe for swears.
Back on topic, wasn't expecting Cathay out of nowhere! Overall I like them, especially that balloon. Although it's the sort of thing I'd knock over and break with a careless arm movement in every game. It might have a range of uses in other games and settings too--maybe even LotR SBG with some Easterlings as crew.
Are the Dragon Princes models still coming out? Are the plastic White Lions of Chrace going to be sold at some point? How do I know when things will be released?
It is difficult for two reasons to give GW my money 1) The things I want are always sold out before I even know they are for sale and 2) The prices
Gallahad wrote: Are the Dragon Princes models still coming out? Are the plastic White Lions of Chrace going to be sold at some point? How do I know when things will be released?
It is difficult for two reasons to give GW my money 1) The things I want are always sold out before I even know they are for sale and 2) The prices
We don't know about Dragon Princes yet, White Lions were released with wave 1
You can go to the warhammer community page and find out when things are being released for pre-order. There is typically an article every Sunday telling us what is up for pre-order the following Saturday. You can also subscribe to their newsletter to get emails when those pre-order articles are published.
Gallahad wrote: Are the Dragon Princes models still coming out? Are the plastic White Lions of Chrace going to be sold at some point? How do I know when things will be released?
It is difficult for two reasons to give GW my money 1) The things I want are always sold out before I even know they are for sale and 2) The prices
We don't know about Dragon Princes yet, White Lions were released with wave 1
You can go to the warhammer community page and find out when things are being released for pre-order. There is typically an article every Sunday telling us what is up for pre-order the following Saturday. You can also subscribe to their newsletter to get emails when those pre-order articles are published.
Thank you.
They don't seem to include release dates on Warhammer community that I can find, looks like I just have to check every week to see if the thing I want is coming the next week? I'm unlikely to check their website every weekend to see if I can buy what I want.
I'll just continue my current trend of wanting to buy things, discovering they either aren't released yet or sold out, and then buying some better 3d prints for a third the price.
You mean, the factions that helped build GW up into what it is today? I suppose, but that won't endear people who are fans of those legacy factions and want to see them eventually make it into TOW.
In TOW, easily 75% of my minis are... well, not UNuseable, but certainly getting power creeped out of play as non-legacy armies get updated. That makes the game even LESS fun, and therefore makes me less likely to continue engaging. So if your goal is to makle TOW more exclusive with a smaller player base and fewer people buying the minis, go for it.
You mean, the factions that helped build GW up into what it is today? I suppose, but that won't endear people who are fans of those legacy factions and want to see them eventually make it into TOW.
In TOW, easily 75% of my minis are... well, not UNuseable, but certainly getting power creeped out of play as non-legacy armies get updated. That makes the game even LESS fun, and therefore makes me less likely to continue engaging. So if your goal is to makle TOW more exclusive with a smaller player base and fewer people buying the minis, go for it.
Power creep isn't the issue. The problem is they nerfed the legacy lists at least twice all while saying they wouldn't get any 'updates.'
So keep on believing their intent chaos. It's almost laughable to accept what GW says/writes at face value.
GW's aim has been clear from the beginning: they want the players of the legacy factions to play them in AOS.
That they put an emphasis on Bretonnia, now Cathay and in the future probably Kislev isn't surprising as those were some of the most popular factions in Total War.
They want both old players back and an influx of the Total War fans, I think.
As most legacy armies are playable in AOS (as a dark elf player I'm sad though) GW can have their cake and eat it too.
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
To be fair it doesn't help when GW has armies like Dark Elves just kind of languishing for years with no real focus nor plan besides one campaign book that "sort of" returned an old army but then never touched on it again.
And then pulls Beastmen - an army which had AoS Battletome and model additions - and then pulls it 100% and puts it into Old World.
GW sends a confusing message and leaves hope/potential for other things to one-day-maybe-if-just-MAYBE happen
Heck some of us still cling to hope that Squats will return or that GW's many mentions of Exodites will one day come with an actual model.
Overread wrote: To be fair it doesn't help when GW has armies like Dark Elves just kind of languishing for years with no real focus nor plan besides one campaign book that "sort of" returned an old army but then never touched on it again.
And then pulls Beastmen - an army which had AoS Battletome and model additions - and then pulls it 100% and puts it into Old World.
GW sends a confusing message and leaves hope/potential for other things to one-day-maybe-if-just-MAYBE happen
Heck some of us still cling to hope that Squats will return or that GW's many mentions of Exodites will one day come with an actual model.
Wait didn't one of those things already happen???
Also where the HECK is Codex ZOATS!
Good point!
Give me some Chaos Dwarfs already!
I'd settle for 'official' status in ToW and will consider them in AoS, depending!
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.
If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.
I think its you who dont understand corporate communications, friend (for what its worth, my gf works in corporate comms and marketing, formerly doing so for GWs partners and competitors). The messaging around cathay and kislev was pretty clear, saying they were not going to be released in the forseeable future was a tacit acknowledgement that they would/could be released but there was no timeline on it (the reasons why are immaterial). At no point ever was it a denial of potential or rejection of possibility.
The messaging around Legacy factions has been altogether different, with direct statements that they would not be part of the games narrative going forward, were being released for old times sake and that players who wanted to participate in the story that wpuld be told through TOW should collect a core faction instead, that the legacy factions would not be updated or receive releases or support in the future, etc. I really dont know how they could make it any clearer as they made pretty clear denials and rejections with those statements. And while everyone loves to point out that they updated the legacy pdfs once, they did so with the mea culpa acknowledgement that the pdfs were not released as intended (with certain rumormongers stating that they actually released an older pre-final edit of the files by mistake) and they had to correct the errors.
If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.
I know, i got caught in that trap too. I just cant help myself. Im just tired of beating the dead horse on the topic. Its like charlie brown with a football.
First it was "Once they release all the core factions theyll do the legacy factions"
Now its "Once they release cathay theyll do the legacy factions"
Next its going to be (probably) "Once they do kislev theyll do legacy factions"
Eventually itll be "Once they release second edition theyll do legacy factions"
And so on and so forth. I dont know how long this has to go on for before people realize that GW is taking this in a different direction from what they may have wanted or expected, and that they should just enjoy the ride. If GW does legacy factions it likely wont be anytime soon, certainly not as soon as those talking legacy factions want it or expect it to be. Play the game they are selling you now and allow yourself to be surprised and delighted if and when the legacy factions show up, rather than beating this annoying loud drum and getting pissy that they are prioritizing other things and going in different directions.
I figured they would make Old World products for the legacy factions the second corporate felt there was another penny to squeeze out of it, but were otherwise out of ideas. These toy businesses are run by dolts, the reason they don't want The Old World and Age of Sigmar to mix is because someone high enough in the chain arbitrarily decided it would be so. Anyone pretending that their reasoning wasn't inscrutable is living in a fairy tale world without a grimdark aesthetic.
But everyone should also realize that decision is held by GW execs as lightly as a feather. It is, until another arbitrary decision made by someone who has no idea what they're doing comes along and replaces it. That could be tomorrow, or it could be in ten years from now, both are equally likely.
I've heard the opposite rumor from some content creators/playtesters, that the version of legacy factions released on launch was already a toned down version from what some of them had received. One specific example given was the raise dead spell which was I believe changed from 2d6 zombies to 2d3.
It's hard to confirm any of the changes since those playtesters were under nda and weren't able to discuss much about them.
Edit: correction it was D6+4 zombies, not 2d6. I found a reference in the comments section of this video (Mountain Miniatures) of some of the differences in the vampire legacy list Steve had compared to what was released to the public (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9S0eP9MuuQY). I've not watched it so I don't know where he specifically mentioned the raise dead spell in the video.
I also see what you mean by 'older pre-final edit,' which could mean it was a (for instance) 1.1 version that was released instead of an intended 1.2, whereas the playtesters had 1.0. Though I think it's more likely that GW had no clue that certain aspects of the legacy factions would be as powerful as they turned out to be in the hands of the general player base, which knows how to play their game better than they do, and ended up nerfing them once more in order to reduce their strength and popularity.
Well, that people who play the game with all the rules available know it better than those who just know parts if it from reading isn't something new or surprising
That they cared enough to change things before it was released is
For the legacy armies in general, I am still have the impression that more armies are going to be moved to legacy as new ones coming along rather than expanding the game with new stuff for old armies
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.
I think its you who dont understand corporate communications, friend (for what its worth, my gf works in corporate comms and marketing, formerly doing so for GWs partners and competitors). The messaging around cathay and kislev was pretty clear, saying they were not going to be released in the forseeable future was a tacit acknowledgement that they would/could be released but there was no timeline on it (the reasons why are immaterial). At no point ever was it a denial of potential or rejection of possibility.
The messaging around Legacy factions has been altogether different, with direct statements that they would not be part of the games narrative going forward, were being released for old times sake and that players who wanted to participate in the story that wpuld be told through TOW should collect a core faction instead, that the legacy factions would not be updated or receive releases or support in the future, etc. I really dont know how they could make it any clearer as they made pretty clear denials and rejections with those statements. And while everyone loves to point out that they updated the legacy pdfs once, they did so with the mea culpa acknowledgement that the pdfs were not released as intended (with certain rumormongers stating that they actually released an older pre-final edit of the files by mistake) and they had to correct the errors.
If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.
I know, i got caught in that trap too. I just cant help myself. Im just tired of beating the dead horse on the topic. Its like charlie brown with a football.
First it was "Once they release all the core factions theyll do the legacy factions"
Now its "Once they release cathay theyll do the legacy factions"
Next its going to be (probably) "Once they do kislev theyll do legacy factions"
Eventually itll be "Once they release second edition theyll do legacy factions"
And so on and so forth. I dont know how long this has to go on for before people realize that GW is taking this in a different direction from what they may have wanted or expected, and that they should just enjoy the ride. If GW does legacy factions it likely wont be anytime soon, certainly not as soon as those talking legacy factions want it or expect it to be. Play the game they are selling you now and allow yourself to be surprised and delighted if and when the legacy factions show up, rather than beating this annoying loud drum and getting pissy that they are prioritizing other things and going in different directions.
Yeah, just like when they said WFB wasn't coming back at all.
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.
I think its you who dont understand corporate communications, friend (for what its worth, my gf works in corporate comms and marketing, formerly doing so for GWs partners and competitors). The messaging around cathay and kislev was pretty clear, saying they were not going to be released in the forseeable future was a tacit acknowledgement that they would/could be released but there was no timeline on it (the reasons why are immaterial). At no point ever was it a denial of potential or rejection of possibility.
The messaging around Legacy factions has been altogether different, with direct statements that they would not be part of the games narrative going forward, were being released for old times sake and that players who wanted to participate in the story that wpuld be told through TOW should collect a core faction instead, that the legacy factions would not be updated or receive releases or support in the future, etc. I really dont know how they could make it any clearer as they made pretty clear denials and rejections with those statements. And while everyone loves to point out that they updated the legacy pdfs once, they did so with the mea culpa acknowledgement that the pdfs were not released as intended (with certain rumormongers stating that they actually released an older pre-final edit of the files by mistake) and they had to correct the errors.
If someone jumps on here and posts 'can we stop talking about legacy factions,' guess what that makes me want to talk about regardless of whether or not I believe they're returning as supported factions.
I know, i got caught in that trap too. I just cant help myself. Im just tired of beating the dead horse on the topic. Its like charlie brown with a football.
First it was "Once they release all the core factions theyll do the legacy factions"
Now its "Once they release cathay theyll do the legacy factions"
Next its going to be (probably) "Once they do kislev theyll do legacy factions"
Eventually itll be "Once they release second edition theyll do legacy factions"
And so on and so forth. I dont know how long this has to go on for before people realize that GW is taking this in a different direction from what they may have wanted or expected, and that they should just enjoy the ride. If GW does legacy factions it likely wont be anytime soon, certainly not as soon as those talking legacy factions want it or expect it to be. Play the game they are selling you now and allow yourself to be surprised and delighted if and when the legacy factions show up, rather than beating this annoying loud drum and getting pissy that they are prioritizing other things and going in different directions.
Yeah, just like when they said WFB wasn't coming back at all.
Oh, wait...
and they meant it when they said it. so maybe you can get legacy factions in a decade, but GW has been very clear that they aren't in the cards right now
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
I'm amazed by people who actually believe anything GW says via Warhammer Community, when it's been shown on a number of occasions that they will go back on their official position when there's commercial logic in doing so, or will outright tell lies when it suits them (like the old weird messaging around Cathay). It's like some people on this forum have no clue about corporate communications. GW will deny the legacy factions are ever coming back until the day before they announce that they (or at least one army) are coming back, it's standard business practice as it quiets down distracting debate. We may never see all the legacy factions back but I'd bet substantial money on some of them returning within the next 3-4 years if TOW continues being a success.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I know corporate speak and also know GW's spiel: I've been a GW customer since the early '90's. WH community has been reverting on itself on more than one occasion. However, they have been uncommonly upfront about what they will do in the forseeable future. I absolutely agree that they'll probably bring back at least some legacy armies in the future . But they've planned out the game for at least some time yet. I don't understand why people were upset that Cathay released before their legacy army; Kislev will probably be next. It'll be a good while before we see at least some legacy armies returning I think.
I don't think anyone is upset it came out first. I think pretty much everyone expected it to come out before any legacy armies. I think most of us thought Kislev first since that was still in the "Old World" and that Cathay would be their transition to opening the world up more widely.
Also as far as legacy armies I think most people that even talk about them understand that until their replaced or pulled from AoS we won't see them and that may mean we don't see some that are too spreadout/core idea of an AoS army. And we're more likely to get a completely unique branch off faction for some of them (i.e. Vampire Pirates vs. old VC) that can have their own models instead of trying to pull the 30 kits spread over 4 AoS factions out. Some may get reimagined (Ogres) and some may just never show up because unless you're looking globally they don't interact much (Lizardmen).
Just Tony wrote: Yeah, just like when they said WFB wasn't coming back at all.
Oh, wait...
which is still technically correct, WHFB didn't come back
the same way as it is technically correct when GW said they removed IGoUGo from AoS
and this is the big thing people miss, what you think it means and what GW think it means isn't the same and what people want to understand from what they say is most of the time only technically correct
It's also important to note that what GW says is true at the time of saying. That doesn't mean things can't change in the future - esp for a firm that is in a strong position.
It's like how PP said that old models were never coming back for Warmachine. It was 100% true when they said it before pairing with Steamforged Games.
Company marketing aims to be simple and easy to understand in the moment. "It's not coming back" is way better than "well we can't bring it back, we'd like too but we'd need a huge amount of money and stability and a strong selling existing brand and enough consumer pressure and Dave in Accounting to get over the fact that we make models and that we don't have to squeeze every penny for maximum profit and for Bob to find the document that tells us which mould makes what which we lost in the great paper-fall of last year"
One is a clear simple easy to digest message that conveys in the instant the state of play with the most likely outcome. The other is a rambling mess that leaves customers sitting on the shelf waiting for "IF maybe" it happens tomorrow. Rather than buying into the new current stuff now that is on the shelf;
I was at adepticon playing. There was good representation of legacy armies at Adepticon. Some of the big wigs (I don’t know their names - I think the 40K head guy and the guy that wrote the 7th Ed high elf army book Adam Troke) walked around observing the games. I spoke to Adam for a bit - nice fella. I’m not arguing for or against legacy here but I’m sure GW isn’t oblivious to the player base despite not making official statements and their stance being no legacy support / not tournament legal.
Well the community matter. I think talking about legacy factions and keep playing/building them actually contribute to bringing them back sooner or later.
nathan2004 wrote: I was at adepticon playing. There was good representation of legacy armies at Adepticon. Some of the big wigs (I don’t know their names - I think the 40K head guy and the guy that wrote the 7th Ed high elf army book Adam Troke) walked around observing the games. I spoke to Adam for a bit - nice fella. I’m not arguing for or against legacy here but I’m sure GW isn’t oblivious to the player base despite not making official statements and their stance being no legacy support / not tournament legal.
I have to think (hope?) that the Chaos Dwarf Golden Daemon award winning is a good sign?
Oh, don't get me wrong. I know corporate speak and also know GW's spiel: I've been a GW customer since the early '90's. WH community has been reverting on itself on more than one occasion. However, they have been uncommonly upfront about what they will do in the forseeable future. I absolutely agree that they'll probably bring back at least some legacy armies in the future . But they've planned out the game for at least some time yet. I don't understand why people were upset that Cathay released before their legacy army; Kislev will probably be next. It'll be a good while before we see at least some legacy armies returning I think.
24 February 2024 (just over a year ago) an article on War Com about Total Warhammer 3 states:
“Fans of Warhammer: The Old World should note that there aren’t any current plans to bring Kislev or Grand Cathay to the tabletop for the foreseeable future.”
That was clearly untrue, unless GW considers foreseeable to be 12 months which is obviously nonsense.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I know corporate speak and also know GW's spiel: I've been a GW customer since the early '90's. WH community has been reverting on itself on more than one occasion. However, they have been uncommonly upfront about what they will do in the forseeable future. I absolutely agree that they'll probably bring back at least some legacy armies in the future . But they've planned out the game for at least some time yet. I don't understand why people were upset that Cathay released before their legacy army; Kislev will probably be next. It'll be a good while before we see at least some legacy armies returning I think.
24 February 2024 (just over a year ago) an article on War Com about Total Warhammer 3 states:
“Fans of Warhammer: The Old World should note that there aren’t any current plans to bring Kislev or Grand Cathay to the tabletop for the foreseeable future.”
That was clearly untrue, unless GW considers foreseeable to be 12 months which is obviously nonsense.
I think 'foreseeable' in GW-speak just means the current hype-cycle of 3-6 months.
Mchagen wrote: '3-6 months'... yeah I don't think so. What's their lead time for development again?
The Marketing department on the Warhammer Community Page is reporting marketing to the customers.
The style of marketing GW has gone for over the last decades its generally short term. Focused on immediate to around a 3 month window with sometimes a few more months here and there. The only time they've ever really broken with that is if something goes wrong along the way and something gets significantly delayed or in the case of the very initial marketing for Old World returning. And even then all we basically had was some concept art for Kisleve and a picture of a square base.
"foreseeable future" in marketing talk from GW is a few months out - its not a year out or years out.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think it was prwtty clear from the getgo that what you just describrd was GWs intent in the first place.
While you're likely right, that is not a good way to inspire me to spend money on their products.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JWh85 wrote: GW's aim has been clear from the beginning: they want the players of the legacy factions to play them in AOS.
That they put an emphasis on Bretonnia, now Cathay and in the future probably Kislev isn't surprising as those were some of the most popular factions in Total War.
They want both old players back and an influx of the Total War fans, I think.
As most legacy armies are playable in AOS (as a dark elf player I'm sad though) GW can have their cake and eat it too.
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
Never said I was surprised by GW's antics. Once they blew up the game in the name of corporate greed, they pretty well lost the ability to surprise me. And I'm less 'disgruntled with GW' and more 'departed the GW Hhhobby entirely' at this point.
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
Mchagen wrote: '3-6 months'... yeah I don't think so. What's their lead time for development again?
The Marketing department on the Warhammer Community Page is reporting marketing to the customers.
The style of marketing GW has gone for over the last decades its generally short term. Focused on immediate to around a 3 month window with sometimes a few more months here and there. The only time they've ever really broken with that is if something goes wrong along the way and something gets significantly delayed or in the case of the very initial marketing for Old World returning. And even then all we basically had was some concept art for Kisleve and a picture of a square base.
"foreseeable future" in marketing talk from GW is a few months out - its not a year out or years out.
Top notch statement there, marketing department handles marketing... well done.
They had Cathay in development with a slot in their release calendar a year+ out which is the very definition of their foreseeable future. You can spin it all you want with excuses for what they do with marketing speak, but the reality was they wanted to hide Cathay for the first year so they could push the old models.
Keeping it a secret is fine, that's their option and I respect it, but they don't need to use such misleading terminology in their public statements.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think it was prwtty clear from the getgo that what you just describrd was GWs intent in the first place.
While you're likely right, that is not a good way to inspire me to spend money on their products.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JWh85 wrote: GW's aim has been clear from the beginning: they want the players of the legacy factions to play them in AOS.
That they put an emphasis on Bretonnia, now Cathay and in the future probably Kislev isn't surprising as those were some of the most popular factions in Total War.
They want both old players back and an influx of the Total War fans, I think.
As most legacy armies are playable in AOS (as a dark elf player I'm sad though) GW can have their cake and eat it too.
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
Never said I was surprised by GW's antics. Once they blew up the game in the name of corporate greed, they pretty well lost the ability to surprise me. And I'm less 'disgruntled with GW' and more 'departed the GW Hhhobby entirely' at this point.
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
Who says you can't? Is GW going to come into your home and burn down everything you own if you do? It's our game - we can make it like we like - even if they don't officially support it. The renegade pack that square hammer released is a good start.
A month before the current daemon prince kit was first previewed, i commented on a warcom facebook post about i dont remember what that the then-current daemon kit was crap and it would be great if they could redo it. They responded saying there was no plans to on the horizon or something like that. A month later, poof.
chaos0xomega wrote: I think it was prwtty clear from the getgo that what you just describrd was GWs intent in the first place.
While you're likely right, that is not a good way to inspire me to spend money on their products.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
JWh85 wrote: GW's aim has been clear from the beginning: they want the players of the legacy factions to play them in AOS.
That they put an emphasis on Bretonnia, now Cathay and in the future probably Kislev isn't surprising as those were some of the most popular factions in Total War.
They want both old players back and an influx of the Total War fans, I think.
As most legacy armies are playable in AOS (as a dark elf player I'm sad though) GW can have their cake and eat it too.
I keep being amazed by how upfront GW has been about the near future for legacy armies and people who keep being surprised and disgruntled about it.
Never said I was surprised by GW's antics. Once they blew up the game in the name of corporate greed, they pretty well lost the ability to surprise me. And I'm less 'disgruntled with GW' and more 'departed the GW Hhhobby entirely' at this point.
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
Who says you can't? Is GW going to come into your home and burn down everything you own if you do? It's our game - we can make it like we like - even if they don't officially support it. The renegade pack that square hammer released is a good start.
First you've got to find people willing to play it instead of by-the-book TOW or AoS.
That's my real beef with GW at this point. WFB, you could easily find someone to play. Now, you've got people playing TOW, AoS, Kings of War, The 9th Age, all sorts of other games, and several past editions of WFB. Finding a group that plays the one you prefer is increasingly difficult.
chaos0xomega wrote: A month before the current daemon prince kit was first previewed, i commented on a warcom facebook post about i dont remember what that the then-current daemon kit was crap and it would be great if they could redo it. They responded saying there was no plans to on the horizon or something like that. A month later, poof.
This is part of what I've been posting about. If their customer service department, or marketing department, etc. doesn't know, or does know and can't reveal information their response would have been better as; 'we don't know' or 'it's within the realm of possibility,' respectively--rather than blatantly lie or mislead when information is limited or secretive.
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
You have 12k pts of WHFB stuff that doesn't have Old World stats??
If you miss playing WHFB.... Why don't you do something about that?
There's other WHFB players out there, seek them out!
Mchagen wrote: '3-6 months'... yeah I don't think so. What's their lead time for development again?
years, so for Cathay they would have already started working before the first release
but this doesn't mean that anyone not involved in the working process would have known, but be as well that for some of the designers that they didn't know about it until adepticon
in addition, the marketing team knows nothing, they know just what they needed to write the next day and not more
and a good marketing time never writes that they don't know as the community should not get the feeling of secrecy but open communication (and that they are told everything)
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
You have 12k pts of WHFB stuff that doesn't have Old World stats??
If you miss playing WHFB.... Why don't you do something about that?
There's other WHFB players out there, seek them out!
No no, you got that wrong, they have 36000 (!) points they can't use in TOW.
I'm not into that game but I thought all armies got rules and only some profiles were left out?
Boring observation but the legacy armies would make money and GW likes money. That's always going to make it likely they show up at some point unless the whole project has been judged a failure.
I think their marketing is aimed at not cannibalising current sales. If there was some 3 year road map for all GW products it would undermine that kind of FOMO drive.
They want you buying say Brets last year because Dark Elves were never coming and Cathay was not in the foreseeable future. Not conflicted because Cathay was set to be out in 18~ months and Dark Elves might be out in 2027 depending on reception. Perhaps especially when the expected customer for the product is older and so time appears to pass faster.
It's the same as not saying a model will be refreshed because they don't want to hurt sales of the old one. Or at least not until it's time to build hype for the new product.
My guess would be it is 12k across the 9 factions in the two Big Books, and 26k across legacy factions (while also catching any models from the "core" factions where there may not currently be profiles).
Even though I'm not a collector of them, I do wish GW would get off the fence about non-Witch-Elf-Dark-Elves - the fact we're getting teases for an AOS incarnation of Chaos Dorfs before we're seeing Dark Elves over there is ridiculous. If that was going to be the case, Dark Elf Raiding Fleets really should've made it into TOW as a non-legacy list.
That's the same for all firms - they want you buying today not saving for tomorrow and GW has weekly new products all year round for the most part. They don't need to choke their marketing with stuff coming in a year because they've got a dozen new kits next week and a halfdozen the week after and the week after and the week after. There isn't even a marketing slot for next years stuff to slip into.
My impression is after Cathay they could still do legacy armies but it hits two problems
1) New people and some old fans won't want the legacy army "as much" because now there's a brand new army with ALL NEW amazing mdoels and those 30-40 year old sculpts lose some of their attraction
2) Your early legacy army customers are going to start slowing down on buying. Those Brets players will start not buying more and more horses because they can see the awesome new Cathay and they really want to see their knights look just as good. So now they are entering a waiting mode for updated models.
If Gw adds too many legacy armies at once you end up like Sisters of Battle in metal - everyone WANTING stuff but waiting for an update and GW so overloaded with armies to support they cant put the product out fast enough.
Overread, the legacy armies often have newer and better sculpts than the current crop of old world armies. It's more likely that with properly supported legacy armies that the sales of shoeless empire and fugly tomb king armies drop off a cliff if you can instead field the new saurus, grave guard or stormvermin that have all been recently updated.
Along with people having legacy collections of the legacy armies, one of the driving factors behind people wanting supported legacy armies is that they have cool models.
Yeah but those are Age of Sigmar armies and GW is VERY militant on splitting the two lines entirely.
Instead of putting square and circle bases in each box or doing what Conquest do and put rounds on the model with square slot-in adaptors; GW are instead making them two fully separate lines.
So if they brought Lizardmen back they wouldn't get their new AoS models - they'd get their previous generation Old World models just like Slaves to Darkness have.
Or they'd do what they did with Beastmen - anger AoS fans by pulling the army from one game to shove into another. Honestly I was surprised they did it once and I don't think they could do it a second time without AoS collapsing
GW wants legacy armies in TOW, but not for people to buy those models, but to give the system an existing playerbase that makes it easier to sell new armies to new players
the point of not supporting them is to phase out those armies (and players) over time and get new people in, those who don't know what was there before
PS: and I am pretty sure Beastmen are by now just in internal joke for GW that players if said faction need to rebase them on a regular basis without ever getting new models
Overread wrote: Yeah but those are Age of Sigmar armies and GW is VERY militant on splitting the two lines entirely.
Unless they are not, of course. What annoys me most about this specific topic is how inconsistent GW is with it:
- You get rules for Chaos Giants, usable by both WoC and BoC, but no model to buy for them. Unless you get the one listed for AoS (which is of course the right choice in this context, since the model was originally designed to be usable by Chaos factions). Could you technically use the one from the O&G range? Sure, but it is not sold as such, and the "AoS kit" actually gives you parts to build a "proper" Chaos Giant (again, as it was meant to do so).
- You get rules for Squig Herds, Squig Hoppers (with rules options they never had before), Mangler Squigs, Fanatics, Stone Trolls, River Trolls, Spider Riders and Arachnarok Spider for O&G, but no models for any of them in their regular TOW range (with the Troll variants only being sold as MtO models for a short time last year). Unless you buy from the AoSGSG range of course. From which the Squig Hopper kit also builds Boingrot Bounders, being represented in TOW by rules for cavalry spears and light armour, something not possible in previous editions of WHF and clearly meant with the intention to "just use the AoS models". I am also really generous with the Giant Cave Squig mount option here: you technically get one in the Nightgoblin Command, but are off way cheaper (and with more options) with the AoS model again.
- As for more O&G shenanigans: remember Savage Orc Bosses, Savage Orcs and Savage Orc Boar Boyz? They can all be fielded using the TOW rules, just use the Warpaint option. Remember the kits (and blister) for their models, currently not available at all? They were sold as AoS items until their culling last year alongside the Beastmen. I expect a similar story as for Beastmen, and the kits returning at some point in the not too distant future.
I feel like I forgot something, but all of this shows how not militant GW actually is. For some cases they are clearly willing to provide TOW rules only covered by AoS kits, and not all of them cover things available in the past (see Boingrot Bounders).
Overread wrote: Or they'd do what they did with Beastmen - anger AoS fans by pulling the army from one game to shove into another. Honestly I was surprised they did it once and I don't think they could do it a second time without AoS collapsing
What's more baffling: Dark Elves do not even represent such a massive part of the CoS range. It is not the same situation. Beastmen lost all of their AoS range and got legend'd completely. The Elven parts of CoS were also in parts cut already in the past, with the remaining kits not being that big of a portion of the CoS range anyway. I feel sorry for anybody playing AoS with only DE models, but how many of them are out there anyway?
Kodos is right, and its not just GW per se - several of the top end major tournament/event organizers have basically said in private conversation that they are allowing legacy armies for now because they cant fill tables without them, but that once demand reaches the point that the events are selling out and theres significant enough excess demand they are going to cut suppoet for legacy in their events as they are losing out on a lot of support or whatever from GW over it.
Also, I keep going back to Chorfs as an example point as to why legacy factions are not on the docket. Theres no competition for them, theres no chaos dwarf army in AoS (yet), the entire model range is in resin and will not be used by any future AoS army, its an "evil" faction so it could have given TOW fans the much desired but ultimately unnecessaey and arbitrary "balance" of 5 good vs 5 evil factions, even though they are more modern aculpts than most of TOW the prive point on the army would limit that from impacting sales of old TK models, etc.
chaos0xomega wrote: Kodos is right, and its not just GW per se - several of the top end major tournament/event organizers have basically said in private conversation that they are allowing legacy armies for now because they cant fill tables without them, but that once demand reaches the point that the events are selling out and theres significant enough excess demand they are going to cut suppoet for legacy in their events as they are losing out on a lot of support or whatever from GW over it.
Always amazes me how consistently TOs cuck for GW over some nebulous potential of future "support" at the expense of getting the game played. Same with adamant refusal to allow prints or recasts in many events.
Oh, don't get me wrong. I know corporate speak and also know GW's spiel: I've been a GW customer since the early '90's. WH community has been reverting on itself on more than one occasion. However, they have been uncommonly upfront about what they will do in the forseeable future. I absolutely agree that they'll probably bring back at least some legacy armies in the future . But they've planned out the game for at least some time yet. I don't understand why people were upset that Cathay released before their legacy army; Kislev will probably be next. It'll be a good while before we see at least some legacy armies returning I think.
24 February 2024 (just over a year ago) an article on War Com about Total Warhammer 3 states:
“Fans of Warhammer: The Old World should note that there aren’t any current plans to bring Kislev or Grand Cathay to the tabletop for the foreseeable future.”
That was clearly untrue, unless GW considers foreseeable to be 12 months which is obviously nonsense.
I think 'foreseeable' in GW-speak just means the current hype-cycle of 3-6 months.
chaos0xomega wrote: Kodos is right, and its not just GW per se - several of the top end major tournament/event organizers have basically said in private conversation that they are allowing legacy armies for now because they cant fill tables without them, but that once demand reaches the point that the events are selling out and theres significant enough excess demand they are going to cut suppoet for legacy in their events as they are losing out on a lot of support or whatever from GW over it.
Always amazes me how consistently TOs cuck for GW over some nebulous potential of future "support" at the expense of getting the game played. Same with adamant refusal to allow prints or recasts in many events.
by now there are enough people making good money with tournaments, so they do anything to keep the money flowing
I wouldn't start counting my chickens yet if I were whoever that tournament organizer is. The Old World tournament players might not be Horus Heresy players, but they're not 40K players either, they'll be very resistant to the idea of bucking off the legacy factions. GW doesn't do anything for tournaments anyway, organizers are far more likely to write their own set of competitive game rules and army lists than dump armies because GW won't update the legacy army lists. That's very much the wrong crowd to be planning to approach with that kind of mindset.
GW isn't going to publish a faction comprised entirely of 15+, extremely expensive resin kits in a line that is clearly meant to be plastic based, to the point they were willing to put TK skellies back on the shelves, shameful as that was.
Does Cathay even have any resin models previewed at this point?
chaos0xomega wrote: A month before the current daemon prince kit was first previewed, i commented on a warcom facebook post about i dont remember what that the then-current daemon kit was crap and it would be great if they could redo it. They responded saying there was no plans to on the horizon or something like that. A month later, poof.
"GW said no plans so it won't happen," followed shortly by "Here's an express example on how my first statement was proven wrong."
Honestly for a new army I'd expect resin only on named character models/unique models that you'd only take one of.
Everything else plastic.
However as its an army game it might well be all plastic much like how they are rolling out all plastic slowly across HH and other specialist games. Only Necromunda is really holding onto it in a big way and that makes sense as a lot of their niche models are very optional like hangers-on for gangs. A good few of which you wouldn't even take on the table unless your home base is under attack
Overread wrote: Honestly for a new army I'd expect resin only on named character models/unique models that you'd only take one of.
If Cathay gets any resin, I too forsee it only being Named Characters and maybe another generic character or two that's ostensibly tied to their Armies of Infamy like the Chrace Captain for High Elves.
GW isn't going to publish a faction comprised entirely of 15+, extremely expensive resin kits in a line that is clearly meant to be plastic based, to the point they were willing to put TK skellies back on the shelves, shameful as that was.
Does Cathay even have any resin models previewed at this point?
You just described several factions of Horus Heresy, though theres fewer of them now.
chaos0xomega wrote: A month before the current daemon prince kit was first previewed, i commented on a warcom facebook post about i dont remember what that the then-current daemon kit was crap and it would be great if they could redo it. They responded saying there was no plans to on the horizon or something like that. A month later, poof.
"GW said no plans so it won't happen," followed shortly by "Here's an express example on how my first statement was proven wrong."
They didnt say it wouldnt happen, they said nothing on the horizon.
What i didnt say previously though was the second half of that sentence, which was "keep an eye on warhammer community for more news in the future in csse things change" or something to that effect, which is actually the opposite of what youre trying to spin it as.
lord_blackfang wrote: Same with adamant refusal to allow prints or recasts in many events.
Honestly? I'm not going to begrudge a TO saying "No" to recasts. 3D prints are a little trickier, depending on if they're a new sculpt for a unit, or based on a scan of the original and then printed.
GW isn't going to publish a faction comprised entirely of 15+, extremely expensive resin kits in a line that is clearly meant to be plastic based, to the point they were willing to put TK skellies back on the shelves, shameful as that was.
Does Cathay even have any resin models previewed at this point?
You just described several factions of Horus Heresy, though theres fewer of them now.
chaos0xomega wrote: A month before the current daemon prince kit was first previewed, i commented on a warcom facebook post about i dont remember what that the then-current daemon kit was crap and it would be great if they could redo it. They responded saying there was no plans to on the horizon or something like that. A month later, poof.
"GW said no plans so it won't happen," followed shortly by "Here's an express example on how my first statement was proven wrong."
They didnt say it wouldnt happen, they said nothing on the horizon.
What i didnt say previously though was the second half of that sentence, which was "keep an eye on warhammer community for more news in the future in csse things change" or something to that effect, which is actually the opposite of what youre trying to spin it as.
I'm "spinning" it as GW's track record is "Nothing is set in stone despite press releases." You seem to simply be a contrarian to whatever is posted, even your own posts.
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
You have 12k pts of WHFB stuff that doesn't have Old World stats??
If you miss playing WHFB.... Why don't you do something about that?
There's other WHFB players out there, seek them out!
They're all playing TOW with the new hotness... or AoS, or KoW. No one wants to play WFB anymore.
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
You have 12k pts of WHFB stuff that doesn't have Old World stats??
If you miss playing WHFB.... Why don't you do something about that?
There's other WHFB players out there, seek them out!
They're all playing TOW with the new hotness... or AoS, or KoW. No one wants to play WFB anymore.
I have a group in one town comprised of no less than 8 players who play 6th, so not exactly accurate. Sometimes it takes a touch of effort, but I bet you could find some...
Overread wrote: Yeah but those are Age of Sigmar armies and GW is VERY militant on splitting the two lines entirely.
Instead of putting square and circle bases in each box or doing what Conquest do and put rounds on the model with square slot-in adaptors; GW are instead making them two fully separate lines.
So if they brought Lizardmen back they wouldn't get their new AoS models - they'd get their previous generation Old World models just like Slaves to Darkness have.
Or they'd do what they did with Beastmen - anger AoS fans by pulling the army from one game to shove into another. Honestly I was surprised they did it once and I don't think they could do it a second time without AoS collapsing
The only AoS Beastmen players that're angry are those who (come June? July?) refuse to use Legends....
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
You have 12k pts of WHFB stuff that doesn't have Old World stats??
If you miss playing WHFB.... Why don't you do something about that?
There's other WHFB players out there, seek them out!
They're all playing TOW with the new hotness... or AoS, or KoW. No one wants to play WFB anymore.
You do realize that ToW is just the next version of WHFB, right?
It's the same old same old. New edition, new books to buy, some assorted rules changes. Changes: few +/a few -/some of no real importance....
This has been happening every few years since I began playing way back in WHFB 3e.
The only thing really different this time is that GW called it something else & made the covers blue.
JWh85 wrote: Oh, don't get me wrong. I know corporate speak and also know GW's spiel: I've been a GW customer since the early '90's. WH community has been reverting on itself on more than one occasion. However, they have been uncommonly upfront about what they will do in the forseeable future. I absolutely agree that they'll probably bring back at least some legacy armies in the future . But they've planned out the game for at least some time yet. I don't understand why people were upset that Cathay released before their legacy army; Kislev will probably be next. It'll be a good while before we see at least some legacy armies returning I think.
24 February 2024 (just over a year ago) an article on War Com about Total Warhammer 3 states:
“Fans of Warhammer: The Old World should note that there aren’t any current plans to bring Kislev or Grand Cathay to the tabletop for the foreseeable future.”
That was clearly untrue, unless GW considers foreseeable to be 12 months which is obviously nonsense.
MaxT wrote:GW bods writing articles & working their social media haven't got a clue what's releasing 2 weeks later, never mind years later
The main thing I continue to find weird is that the article in question, about TW:WH3 things, just didn't need to say anything about the TOW plans to begin with. It was quite an active decision to make a (misleading) statement about the Cathay plans at this stage.
How long does it take for GW to get a new army on the board these days?
I suppose for Kathay they had already done most of the design work and even how the army would work.
Yeah, Cathay is kinda exceptional because they did 90% of the design work before TOW was really confirmed as a thing (the old comment about them doing “an 8th edition army book” for the faction) as an aide to the TWW3 development team. Even the 3D sculpting would have been done around then, assuming Sega let them use the assets.
So with all the background done, most of the design work, and half the sculpting, they absolutely could have made the decision to go for a full physical release a few months ago. Get the ‘eavy metal team on painting some 3D printed prototypes, run the STLs over to the machine shop, find a slot in the queue at the printers, done. By the time the release date is announced in six months, everything should be ready.
However as its an army game it might well be all plastic much like how they are rolling out all plastic slowly across HH and other specialist games. Only Necromunda is really holding onto it in a big way and that makes sense as a lot of their niche models are very optional like hangers-on for gangs. A good few of which you wouldn't even take on the table unless your home base is under attack
It's not just Necromunda. Blood Bowl Star players and most characters and faction specific characters for HH will still be in resin for years to come. And I suppose they'll just printing them in the not too far future. Plastic injection molding isn't that cost-effective for smaller runs like seldom sold models or limited ones. Sure, GWcan make a profit even then - especially when I look at the price for Maleneth (uh... it's not even a good model) or Hell's Last (or other, non-limited characters). But that will change, unless the models are well recieved, wanted and really good.
Fayric wrote: How long does it take for GW to get a new army on the board these days?
I suppose for Kathay they had already done most of the design work and even how the army would work.
them already having the 3D renders and artworks would speed things up, but also for a release everything would be finished at least 6 months in advance
So I would guess if we see Cathay released in 2025, they would have started around the time TOW was released or shortly before that
if they come later they started later
Also, we can’t rule out the stuff that ended up in Total War didn’t start off as notes, sketches and possibly even mock-up greens/conversions from any point in WHFB’s history.
The other obvious faction for GW to release is Vampire Coast - they have all the lore and units in TW based on the old conversions, people will not have the models as they were never produced just converted and it would not clash with AOS as sadly they never followed up on the lore of vampirates in that universe either
Mr Morden wrote: The other obvious faction for GW to release is Vampire Coast
Do they exist at the time Old World is set?
Yep They have been around for more than a thousand years before date OW is set in
In 876 IC a Norse longship boarded a Imperial trade ship. The Norse stole a precious antique coffin, not knowing that the Vampire Luthor Harkon resided inside. As the Norse vessel was washed to the shores of Lustria, they were all drowned or starved to death. Although the crew were not already dead but undead, and accompanied the Vampire when he made landfall and started to conquer his new Undead empire. With his Zombie hordes he started to conquer his part of the jungle and loot the pyramid cities of the Lizardmen. After he was defeated in 930 IC in the Battle of the Eclipse by the Kroxigor Nakai near to the temple city of Oxyl, he started to create vast hordes of Zombie Pirates to execute revenge on the Lizardmen. In 1011 IC he allied with the Syreens and wrecked countless ships at the rocky shores. Any drowned sailor became a new undead servant to him. Then in 1127 IC he began to raise sunken ships and terrorized the seas of the Warhammer world with his ghost ships with undead crews and his hordes grew even more. Then in 1351 IC he marched with his amassed hordes south, slaughtered the Skinks that spotted his undead army, and looted and destroyed the Lizardmen City of Axlotl. Although the Lizardmen were able to save some of the most potent artefacts he still took many magic items back into his shady realm. In 1492, many nations and races sent expeditions to Lustria after Marco Colombo returned to the Old World in a ship laden down with gold. Luthor dispatched emmisaries to many of these, offering his aid against the Lizardmen in the form of gilded Ebony Skulls which allow the user to call forth undead seamen.
nathan2004 wrote: Aesthetically would they just be a blend of dark elves and vampires?
They are pretty unique - Zombies with guns, pirate vampires and Wights, lots and lots of guns and cannons including those mounted on monsters and Necrofex colossus- they really like guns
The minis line could be as awesome as the one for Cathay
Point of order: Total warhammer 3d art assets are not suitable for tabletop gamong purposes. Everything being produced for tabletop is being sculpted from the ground up by GWs team for that purpose. Those who have printed ripped models from the game can tell you that they are simultaneously covered in umreproduceable details as well as absent details entirely that are filled in by texture shaders (scales, hair, feathers, and fur, for example, are not sculpted detail and are in fact smooth surfaces with texture art applied)
nathan2004 wrote: Aesthetically would they just be a blend of dark elves and vampires?
They are pretty unique - Zombies with guns, pirate vampires and Wights, lots and lots of guns and cannons including those mounted on monsters and Necrofex colossus- they really like guns
The minis line could be as awesome as the one for Cathay
Thanks that's a very different take on vampires then I've ever seen in a wargame or movie honestly (that I can think of off the top of my head).
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Also, we can’t rule out the stuff that ended up in Total War didn’t start off as notes, sketches and possibly even mock-up greens/conversions from any point in WHFB’s history.
Considering all the ancillary material GW did in the past - Mordheim, Lustria, Dogs of War etc... I'd be very surprised if the studio didn't have a pretty complete picture of Cathay looks and lore by the late 90s. Their work for Total War was getting it all into a format that an outside team that didn't know it by heart could use as a reference, and I'm pretty sure they stated as much at some point in the design blogs.
As for the upcoming models, they are certainly all done from scratch, casting technology has advanced so much that any sculpting done 10+ years ago would have been useless.
And I'd be all for the Vampire Coast, TOW desperately needs an infusion of non-human factions asap.
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Also, we can’t rule out the stuff that ended up in Total War didn’t start off as notes, sketches and possibly even mock-up greens/conversions from any point in WHFB’s history.
Considering all the ancillary material GW did in the past - Mordheim, Lustria, Dogs of War etc... I'd be very surprised if the studio didn't have a pretty complete picture of Cathay looks and lore by the late 90s. Their work for Total War was getting it all into a format that an outside team that didn't know it by heart could use as a reference, and I'm pretty sure they stated as much at some point in the design blogs.
As for the upcoming models, they are certainly all done from scratch, casting technology has advanced so much that any sculpting done 10+ years ago would have been useless.
And I'd be all for the Vampire Coast, TOW desperately needs an infusion of non-human factions asap.
I wouldn’t be so sure about the outline of the Cathay aesthetic being solved in the late 90s already. As far as I know, there was 1 official published artwork of anything Cathay (a dude with a sword) and that concept differs from what we got out of the GW and CA collaboration. (The old artwork was way cooler and far less generic than the Chinese fantasy, that we got with TW3) there is also some vague smell of the new Cathay look bearing corporate touches of trying to interest Chinese markets (like with 3 Kingdoms) and playing it safe in regards to avoiding wilder concepts (making it more familiar for the public that has seen any sort of fantasy with a stereotypical Chinese aesthetic) or having a non chaos faction, that is evil-ish.
And I couldn’t agree more - ToW needs something that isn’t humans for the sake of variety if nothing else. Vampirates would be very cool. Or maybe something completely new? Like the rumour from the very distant past of some insectoids the likes of which we can see on the belt of the ogre Firebelly model
nathan2004 wrote: Aesthetically would they just be a blend of dark elves and vampires?
They are pretty unique - Zombies with guns, pirate vampires and Wights, lots and lots of guns and cannons including those mounted on monsters and Necrofex colossus- they really like guns
The minis line could be as awesome as the one for Cathay
Thanks that's a very different take on vampires then I've ever seen in a wargame or movie honestly (that I can think of off the top of my head).
It's basically Pirates of the Carribean x Vampires. It's no surprise the White Dwarf article that gave them rules came out between Pirates and Dead Man's Chest.
Original is probably the last thing i have in mind when i think if them. Now, that doesn't means that they wouldn't make a great army, but undead pirate is one of the oldest and most used "fantasy" trope
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Also, we can’t rule out the stuff that ended up in Total War didn’t start off as notes, sketches and possibly even mock-up greens/conversions from any point in WHFB’s history.
Considering all the ancillary material GW did in the past - Mordheim, Lustria, Dogs of War etc... I'd be very surprised if the studio didn't have a pretty complete picture of Cathay looks and lore by the late 90s. Their work for Total War was getting it all into a format that an outside team that didn't know it by heart could use as a reference, and I'm pretty sure they stated as much at some point in the design blogs.
As for the upcoming models, they are certainly all done from scratch, casting technology has advanced so much that any sculpting done 10+ years ago would have been useless.
And I'd be all for the Vampire Coast, TOW desperately needs an infusion of non-human factions asap.
I wouldn’t be so sure about the outline of the Cathay aesthetic being solved in the late 90s already. As far as I know, there was 1 official published artwork of anything Cathay (a dude with a sword) and that concept differs from what we got out of the GW and CA collaboration. (The old artwork was way cooler and far less generic than the Chinese fantasy, that we got with TW3) there is also some vague smell of the new Cathay look bearing corporate touches of trying to interest Chinese markets (like with 3 Kingdoms) and playing it safe in regards to avoiding wilder concepts (making it more familiar for the public that has seen any sort of fantasy with a stereotypical Chinese aesthetic) or having a non chaos faction, that is evil-ish.
Thing is GW is old and have had a lot of creative staff over the decades. Any creative staff working long term for GW would likely have a whole body of concepts for things that have never seen the light of day. From rough sketches to high detail that almost got made and then didn't.
GW's creative archive could contain loads of designs for units, models, factions and races that have just never seen the light of day and might never do. Some might be lost when staff moved; some might be forgotten in a draw in some cabinet in a corner of the office.
There's every chances that Cathay had more than one design style too from different staffers or just experimenting with a theme.
So it wouldn't surprise me if GW had designs for models and whole armies that we've never ever ever seen in their archives.
Heck Old World refresh already has had one or two models released that never saw the light of day back then
Worth mentioming that Warmaster covered certain factions that never really got attention in WHFB, Araby for one. I feel like I vaguely remember that warmaster had a cathay or nippon army list released in some sort of magazine (not white dwarf, one of the other ones)?
Dead Humans, mutated Humans (not yet released), blessed by evil gods humans, early modern humans, knightly humans and asian humans (not yet released)
With Kislev and Chaos Dwarfs getting maybe.
It is rather human heavy
Overread wrote: Yeah Araby got an entire full army released for Warmaster, though it seems neither GW nor CA wanted to explore them in the Warhammer game at all.
given that most of the existing background is from older editions and more about mocking Muslims while throwing different cultures who don't like each other together, there is a good reason CA not wanting to touch it until GW re-worked the background
chaos0xomega wrote:Worth mentioming that Warmaster covered certain factions that never really got attention in WHFB, Araby for one. I feel like I vaguely remember that warmaster had a cathay or nippon army list released in some sort of magazine (not white dwarf, one of the other ones)?
Overread wrote:Yeah Araby got an entire full army released for Warmaster, though it seems neither GW nor CA wanted to explore them in the Warhammer game at all.
I think the conversation was more revolving around games that mattered and were actually purchased.
Overread wrote: Thing is GW is old and have had a lot of creative staff over the decades. Any creative staff working long term for GW would likely have a whole body of concepts for things that have never seen the light of day. From rough sketches to high detail that almost got made and then didn't.
GW's creative archive could contain loads of designs for units, models, factions and races that have just never seen the light of day and might never do. Some might be lost when staff moved; some might be forgotten in a draw in some cabinet in a corner of the office.
There's every chances that Cathay had more than one design style too from different staffers or just experimenting with a theme.
Anyone else remember the old rumours, from the days of Portal some twenty years ago, about GW planning to release 'Cathayan pig-men' who were cursed by Tzeentch?
While in the far past, Beastmen were created as a fusion of human and beasts when the raw stuff of Chaos erupted from the ruined Gate, after thousands of years, they recognize themselves as a separate race from man and are fully capable of breeding true, hence why Gors look down upon those Ungor and half-horns that join the herds from human mutation.
kodos wrote:given that most of the existing background is from older editions and more about mocking Muslims while throwing different cultures who don't like each other together, there is a good reason CA not wanting to touch it until GW re-worked the background
Yeah... we can already see that the Cathay release is getting a bunch of conspiracies about trying to attract Chinese attention so they're not grim enough - though being a somewhat socially stagnant realm run by immortals seems plenty dark. I don't know that we need to get into more of that with the rest of the Warhammer World until they come up with some interesting hooks. Even with Kislev you occasionally see a post here or there arguing that it would be difficult to do because of geopolitics. I don't think that's actually true in either case, but frankly youtube's algorithm already feeds me enough clash of civilizations nonsense without needing more of that amped up.
Shakalooloo wrote:
Anyone else remember the old rumours, from the days of Portal some twenty years ago, about GW planning to release 'Cathayan pig-men' who were cursed by Tzeentch?
Yeah - though I recall at the time there was some chatter that the Celestial Dragon Monk may have been willing Tzeentchians, etc. Honestly, catching these interviews that folks like Jordan Sorcery and Filmdeg are doing with the second and third generations of GW people, there's quite a number of stories that "so and so moved their office and then years later we found these notes under a sofa". At some point - and quite possibly even now - GW was just a load of weird nerds pursuing wacky interests and sometimes management would decide this or that would sell. So I'm not immediately inclined to think all of those rumours were true, but there's no reason to think none of them ever were possibilities that someone was noodling with.
kodos wrote: Dead Humans, mutated Humans (not yet released), blessed by evil gods humans, early modern humans, knightly humans and asian humans (not yet released)
With Kislev and Chaos Dwarfs getting maybe.
It is rather human heavy.
While counting Tomb Kings and Beastmen factions as human focused is a stretch, Kislev is surely now guaranteed following Cathay's announcement? They were both part of Total War's design and the original marketing of Old World, and fit in with the upcoming Chaos threat theme/date of the setting.
kodos wrote: Dead Humans, mutated Humans (not yet released), blessed by evil gods humans, early modern humans, knightly humans and asian humans (not yet released)
With Kislev and Chaos Dwarfs getting maybe.
It is rather human heavy.
While counting Tomb Kings and Beastmen factions as human focused is a stretch, Kislev is surely now guaranteed following Cathay's announcement? They were both part of Total War's design and the original marketing of Old World, and fit in with the upcoming Chaos threat theme/date of the setting.
If we should have learned anything by now, it's that nothing is guaranteed where GW is concerned.
chaos0xomega wrote:Worth mentioming that Warmaster covered certain factions that never really got attention in WHFB, Araby for one. I feel like I vaguely remember that warmaster had a cathay or nippon army list released in some sort of magazine (not white dwarf, one of the other ones)?
Overread wrote:Yeah Araby got an entire full army released for Warmaster, though it seems neither GW nor CA wanted to explore them in the Warhammer game at all.
I think the conversation was more revolving around games that mattered and were actually purchased.
Completely irrelevant when the topic at hand is whether GW did any internal development on a faction or concept.
I'd expect Cathay to come out and then the next new full army after that should be Kislev.
With between the two either being more old armies returning or more updates to current armies in the form of new models/upgraded to modern plastic models.
NOW GW can do odd things. For example in AoS the Dark Elf army sat there almost entirely complete - a couple of hero models and you'd have the whole army work and yet GW has done nothing with it what so ever barring 1 campaign book that was more like a side set of rules.
They also teased Malarion as a major player and ruler of a whole Realm with loads of teaser appearances in the Big Rulebook and - have also done nothing with him.
Meanwhile they launched Ossiarchs off the back of a side games quest that no one really thought would lead to a new whole faction and major race in the setting.
GW also took a functional army that was selling; had updated models and - pulled it to put in another game - Beastmen into Old World
Sometimes GW acts logically; other times it acts in ways that are no doubt logical, but only if you know all the internal things that we often have no clue about until well after the event is over.
Doesn't mean I don't miss playing WFB, though. Especially as I look over some 12,000 points of minis I can use in TOW... and three times that many points I can't.
You have 12k pts of WHFB stuff that doesn't have Old World stats??
If you miss playing WHFB.... Why don't you do something about that?
There's other WHFB players out there, seek them out!
They're all playing TOW with the new hotness... or AoS, or KoW. No one wants to play WFB anymore.
You do realize that ToW is just the next version of WHFB, right?
It's the same old same old. New edition, new books to buy, some assorted rules changes. Changes: few +/a few -/some of no real importance....
This has been happening every few years since I began playing way back in WHFB 3e.
The only thing really different this time is that GW called it something else & made the covers blue.
Yes, TOW is the next version of WHFB... minus Skaven, Lizardmen, and Dark Elves, my three biggest armies. Yes, there are legacy rules for them. Yes, those rules are sorta garbage and not very much fun.
Overread wrote: Yeah Araby got an entire full army released for Warmaster, though it seems neither GW nor CA wanted to explore them in the Warhammer game at all.
i don't expect GW to ever touch Araby in any significant way without a big revamp of what the faction's lore is like. as is, it's racist. it's just racist. comparable to the old savage orcs line, except that it doesn't even get the "well, they're not human or representing a specific culture" excuse
Araby as it exists now is less "Ottomon or Arab caliphates" and more "West Asia as imagined by 19th century Europeans"
(and before anyone starts, there's a difference between something like Bretonnia being based on King Arthur and French stereotypes vs Araby as it exists in lore; read Edward Said's Orientalism)
There would be plenty of ways to make an araby army acceptable, and anyway, as an arab, i dont recall there was anything offensive in the old warmaster army/fluff (though i might be mistaken, this was ages ago). My main beef with them was that they were, as we say in french, way too "ketaine" (translate a bit to kitsch). Flying carpet.... really....
Also, i would find it dissapointing if the next new army (or revamped army) is another human one
Overread wrote: Yeah Araby got an entire full army released for Warmaster, though it seems neither GW nor CA wanted to explore them in the Warhammer game at all.
i don't expect GW to ever touch Araby in any significant way without a big revamp of what the faction's lore is like. as is, it's racist. it's just racist. comparable to the old savage orcs line, except that it doesn't even get the "well, they're not human or representing a specific culture" excuse
Araby as it exists now is less "Ottomon or Arab caliphates" and more "West Asia as imagined by 19th century Europeans"
(and before anyone starts, there's a difference between something like Bretonnia being based on King Arthur and French stereotypes vs Araby as it exists in lore; read Edward Said's Orientalism)
Wow paranoia. Why Araby & savage orcs are racist and Cathay is not?
basically because Cathay is how the current chinese government portrays their own past the same way
Longstrider wrote:Even with Kislev you occasionally see a post here or there arguing that it would be difficult to do because of geopolitics. I don't think that's actually true in either case.
true or not, but that an army build around a russian themed elite ruling over polish and ukrainian troops with a czech city as capital and its historiy being copy&paste of hungary not being the top priority for release with the current situation would suprise no one
bobthe4th wrote:
kodos wrote: Dead Humans, mutated Humans (not yet released), blessed by evil gods humans, early modern humans, knightly humans and asian humans (not yet released)
With Kislev and Chaos Dwarfs getting maybe.
It is rather human heavy.
While counting Tomb Kings and Beastmen factions as human focused is a stretch
Overread wrote: Yeah Araby got an entire full army released for Warmaster, though it seems neither GW nor CA wanted to explore them in the Warhammer game at all.
i don't expect GW to ever touch Araby in any significant way without a big revamp of what the faction's lore is like. as is, it's racist. it's just racist. comparable to the old savage orcs line, except that it doesn't even get the "well, they're not human or representing a specific culture" excuse
Araby as it exists now is less "Ottomon or Arab caliphates" and more "West Asia as imagined by 19th century Europeans"
(and before anyone starts, there's a difference between something like Bretonnia being based on King Arthur and French stereotypes vs Araby as it exists in lore; read Edward Said's Orientalism)
Wow paranoia. Why Araby & savage orcs are racist and Cathay is not?
Yeah, also isn't Bretonnia just based in Medieval Europe in general? Sure it's mostly French, but that's because France was a major player in the Middle Ages and you have some English troops there too. Yeomen aren't a French thing.
Similarly, the Empire is just bastardization of the German part of the HRE, complete with silly German names and fanaticism. Kislev is stereotypical Russia and Eastern Europe, with various cultures getting blended together in a single morass complete with all of the stereotypes and silly memes such as bear cav.
Norsca is stereotypical pagan Scandinavia except they serve literal demons.
The point is that Araby isn't the only faction to have gotten thrown into a cultural blender; the "European" factions got a similar treatment. Every faction got mishmashed together based on their stereotypes.
And before you start, yes, I know what Orientalism is. And I think it effectively doesn't matter. The end result will still be the same, with the "Western" factions being derived from erroneous stereotypes based more on pop-culture, gross over-simplification and exaggeration than fact. Like Orientalism.
If you see Savage Orcs and the first thing you think of is a certain demographic of people, that sounds like a you problem, tbh.
I dunno why people make it complicated to be honest - the rulebook contains lore sections for each of the returning armies, Cathay, Kislev and Norsca, so we are getting those three armies.
Then we'll probably get a new edition that might give the possibility for more. Or some campaign books with new models for the existing armies first.
I'm still a bit believer that some of the legacy factions will return, but that's probably a second edition thing.
Bretonnia is England/France during the 100 years war combined with Arthurian Legends
Empire is the HRE from early modern times mixed with the 30 years wars
Both heavily mixed with stereotypes and clishee
And no one really cares if the french are mocked that way or not or if witch hunts being a sensitive topic the way they are portrayed there
Yet other regions/cultures are different and the internet less forgiving these days
The Phazer wrote: I dunno why people make it complicated to be honest - the rulebook contains lore sections for each of the returning armies, Cathay, Kislev and Norsca, so we are getting those three armies.
Then we'll probably get a new edition that might give the possibility for more. Or some campaign books with new models for the existing armies first.
I'm still a bit believer that some of the legacy factions will return, but that's probably a second edition thing.
Malarion's forces were in the first AoS rulebook - he's mentioned in the lore and stories more than once and yet his army has never appeared. Meanwhile Ossiarchs only got a mention in a side game at the very end of a campaign and then BOOM whole army. GW are more than capable of mentioning a faction for ages - heck Exodites have been mentioned for decades and so far the only model I'm aware of them having is the bright stallion from Titan Legions/Epic (and that's a tiny dreadnought sized model in that scale). Meanwhile they are also capable of not mentioning a faction ever and having them appear. Necrons, Tau and Ossiarchs were all examples of factions that were never there until they were there. Granted you could argue GW seeded Squats returning with the Necromunda releases, but still the Votaan and their whole faction were absent from any real lore until they were out despite having a big chunk of territory.
kodos wrote: Bretonnia is England/France during the 100 years war combined with Arthurian Legends
Empire is the HRE from early modern times mixed with the 30 years wars
Both heavily mixed with stereotypes and clishee
And no one really cares if the french are mocked that way or not or if witch hunts being a sensitive topic the way they are portrayed there
Yet other regions/cultures are different and the internet less forgiving these days
I understand that, but if every faction is getting mocked and are all based on stereotypes and cliches, why should Araby be any different?
If they played all of the European based factions super straight with not a single hint of irony or derision but hit Araby with every stereotype under the sun then yes, I'd be inclined to agree that's a problem.
But that's not how it is, Bretonnians are arrogant and treat peasants like dirt (who are perpetually covered in it), the Empire are a bunch of kooky German loons with silly names, Norsca are violent, demon worshipping savages (and also Swedish) and Kislev is a bunch of Russian memes with a bit of Polish thrown in (Winged Hussars are Polish. And the Polish really don't like Russians because of the whole Soviet thing), complete with bears.
Every faction got hit with stereotypes, many of which negative, not just Araby.
The Phazer wrote: I dunno why people make it complicated to be honest - the rulebook contains lore sections for each of the returning armies, Cathay, Kislev and Norsca, so we are getting those three armies.
Then we'll probably get a new edition that might give the possibility for more. Or some campaign books with new models for the existing armies first.
I'm still a bit believer that some of the legacy factions will return, but that's probably a second edition thing.
Malarion's forces were in the first AoS rulebook - he's mentioned in the lore and stories more than once and yet his army has never appeared. Meanwhile Ossiarchs only got a mention in a side game at the very end of a campaign and then BOOM whole army. GW are more than capable of mentioning a faction for ages - heck Exodites have been mentioned for decades and so far the only model I'm aware of them having is the bright stallion from Titan Legions/Epic (and that's a tiny dreadnought sized model in that scale). Meanwhile they are also capable of not mentioning a faction ever and having them appear. Necrons, Tau and Ossiarchs were all examples of factions that were never there until they were there. Granted you could argue GW seeded Squats returning with the Necromunda releases, but still the Votaan and their whole faction were absent from any real lore until they were out despite having a big chunk of territory.
Malerion's lore sections in AoS were nowhere near as extensive as the sections for Cathay, Norsca, and Kislev in the recent Old World rulebook. He was named in a few places, but always alongside Tyrion, Teclis, Morathi, and Sigmar. These factions each received a lore section similar to the other main factions already announced.
Lord Damocles wrote: A Cawdor guy in a pointy hat was too spicy for GW. There's no way they're touching Araby.
Historical companies do it all the time, and they seem to get away with it without a fatwa.
I'd find ti hard to believe that an Araby faction done with as much care and attention as Cathay received will get people's ire going - so long as it avoids religious over tones regarding the Quran. So pre-Islamic mythology is up for grabs, and honestly Persian and Berber mythology well. So no Muhammed, but much Sinbad, for example.
Persian dragons are cool, and by nature very warhammerish in design anyway.
I don't know any historical company that is doing a "Arabia" faction, the same way as no one is doing an Africia or Asia faction (you get historical countries or rebel groups which is something very different thatn throwing all racial stereotyps the english had in the 80ies for the middle east into a single faction)
but yes, if GW instead of their Arabia brings in a fantasy Persia it wouldn't be much of a problem, but it would not be Arabia either
The problem is sometimes it only takes 1 nutter to cause problems.
It might also be that Araby Warmaster was a pet project of a staffer who no longer works at GW and they don't have any design work made for full-size models. So in effect its an entire new army to work from scratch almost and if no one in the design team champions them it might well be that they are just stuck like Squats were for decades - no real champion to push them forward so it doesn't get made.
Even for the video game world they still have to work with GW and what GW has designed and if there is nothing on the table GW might well not allow/encourage them to take that path over other forces that GW has material on or has plans for in the future.
I'm sure somebody good will do an Araby force for 3D printing before too long (they already have actually, but there will be more). There are 17 factions in The Old World now, plenty of space to proxy an army.
The trouble with Araby, and various other historical non-European forces, whether fantasy or real world?
So many prejudices and stereotypes exist that it’s really hard not to make the models insulting.
28mm faces are tiny. And so the features are, by necessity, somewhat exaggerated. The difficulty is exaggerating in the right way.
Consider the Catachan Carl Weathers. We can tell at a glance who it’s inspired by. The sculpt and paintjob are both very well done, and sympathetic without being stereotyped or over exaggerated.
Araby? Well, we’ve Al Muktar’s Desert Dogs from the old Dog Of War book. They’ve a clear real world inspiration, and look the part. Are they an insulting stereotype? I personally can’t say, as being a pasty Scots git, it’s not exactly for me to say.
For an army? How do you translate real world, historical inspiration into a Fantasy setting in a sympathetic way?
Camel mounted Cavalry is (was?) a real world thing. But now may be seen as a negative stereotype.
Flying Carpet riders could be inspiration from Sinbad and Ali Baba, but again? Could be seen as a lazy, insulting stereotype.
That is not to say Therefore It Cannot Be Done And Anyone Thinking Of Possibly Maybe Giving It A Go Must Be Sealed In Concrete And Dumped In The Atlantic.
Just that it’s a tricky one, and something that’s going to take an awful lot of thought and care.
Where you may want to go, background allowing, is a 300 Inspired Araby force. Lean into the comic book style there.
It’s not exactly a positive stereotype. But I for one wouldn’t call it an inherently racist stereotype.
kodos wrote: I don't know any historical company that is doing a "Arabia" faction, the same way as no one is doing an Africia or Asia faction (you get historical countries or rebel groups which is something very different thatn throwing all racial stereotyps the english had in the 80ies for the middle east into a single faction)
but yes, if GW instead of their Arabia brings in a fantasy Persia it wouldn't be much of a problem, but it would not be Arabia either
By preference, the newest Victrix minis doing crusade era islamic armies are nice, but if you want variety why not go all the way back to Foundry Miniatures, and all thier metal lines? As dated as they are, they are neat, even if only for the variety.
But if you mean a historical company doing a fantasy mish-mash of all sorts of middle eastern andnorth african sterotypes together into a grabbag none exist...
... unless you count the haradrim from lord of the rings...
The trouble with Araby, and various other historical non-European forces, whether fantasy or real world?
So many prejudices and stereotypes exist that it’s really hard not to make the models insulting.
28mm faces are tiny. And so the features are, by necessity, somewhat exaggerated. The difficulty is exaggerating in the right way.
Consider the Catachan Carl Weathers. We can tell at a glance who it’s inspired by. The sculpt and paintjob are both very well done, and sympathetic without being stereotyped or over exaggerated.
Araby? Well, we’ve Al Muktar’s Desert Dogs from the old Dog Of War book. They’ve a clear real world inspiration, and look the part. Are they an insulting stereotype? I personally can’t say, as being a pasty Scots git, it’s not exactly for me to say.
For an army? How do you translate real world, historical inspiration into a Fantasy setting in a sympathetic way?
Camel mounted Cavalry is (was?) a real world thing. But now may be seen as a negative stereotype.
Flying Carpet riders could be inspiration from Sinbad and Ali Baba, but again? Could be seen as a lazy, insulting stereotype.
That is not to say Therefore It Cannot Be Done And Anyone Thinking Of Possibly Maybe Giving It A Go Must Be Sealed In Concrete And Dumped In The Atlantic.
Just that it’s a tricky one, and something that’s going to take an awful lot of thought and care.
Where you may want to go, background allowing, is a 300 Inspired Araby force. Lean into the comic book style there.
It’s not exactly a positive stereotype. But I for one wouldn’t call it an inherently racist stereotype.
I appreciate the arguments, and in a certain sense I agree - IF it were ever done (and I get it, it's not likely to be) it would be picked through with a fine toothed comb and a smart company (which GW is not always) would see what works in terms of Arabic countries children's programming and cartoons to see what's safe.
But I'd be willing to bet most stuff from the 1001 nights is pretty open.
I don't think it's cowardice on GW's part that prevents them from exploring that path - but profitability.
Even I, a person who would be keen to see such a project happen don't have a huge pressing desire for them. I'd honestly much rather see Tileans*, Sartossans (if there is a difference), and Estalians as new human factions, and see the return of Chorfs to the table top - and if I wanted GW to be brave, I'd want them to rehabilitate the Fimir and release them, too.
*I'd be especially keen on the Tileans, as I'd hope they would give them a look that combines both late medieval/renaissance Italy, and Roman Italy to help differentiate them from those hot-pants wearing Germans in the Empire)
But yeah, I think it's apathy that would keep GW from doing them.
I do not expect Araby as a playable faction for TOW any time soon, if at all - mostly because I think GW has no interest in putting them on the table.
What is there in an Araby army that is not covered in other human factions already? While others might want to lump the undead varieties into the mix, only talking about actual humans in TOW:
Bretonnia does shining knights and peasant hordes of the Arthurian variety. Cavalry of all sorts, blocks of light infantry, some magic, minimal war machines.
The Empire does a version of the HRE with lots of other "Middle European" tropes thrown in the mix. Infantry and cavalry of all sorts, some monsters, a variety of magic, a variety of war machines, some minor shenanigans.
Warriors of Chaos cover "northern barbarian hordes" if you so wish. Infantry and cavalry of all sorts, all kinds of monsters, a variety of magic, no shooting to speak of.
Now Cathay is about to do another kind of mix - and what we have seen so far is actually not that far off of what the Empire does already. The potential for monsters and exotic shenanigans is probably higher overall, and we have seen "exotic" variants of giants, dragons and mobile watch towers already. Building on this first wave of upcoming releases we have to wait and see what GW will bring in actual miniatures going forward.
Then there is the prospect of Kislev doing yet another human faction, and we have only a vague idea of what GW will bring in terms of miniatures and rules.
So what niche would an Araby faction fill that is not already covered by one of the above? With where TOW is headed with its background and what that means in terms of miniatures and publications, I just do not see room for Araby outside of background material.
Depends if they lean into the Djinn aspect, and stuff like Medieval Islam, which was at the forefront of science and alchemy and that.
I’d need to watch my Sinbad movies again (it’s a tough life!) to see other stuff. But there’s plenty there in real world historical mythology to work with.
Darnok wrote: I do not expect Araby as a playable faction for TOW any time soon, if at all - mostly because I think GW has no interest in putting them on the table.
Depends on how well Conquest is doing, I think. If Conquest does well enough then GW might release Araby as an attempt to undercut their Sorcerer Kings faction, similar to what Mantic does to GW.
They'll probably be a crappy cash grab though. Because GW.
chaos0xomega wrote: Arent the Sorceror Kings more medieval India than they are Arab?
It's both. They're a mix of Indian and Arabic.
They have Rakshasas (Indian), Djinn (Arabic), Ghols (Arabic), Efreet (Arabic), Raj (Indian), Sardars (Persian in origin, though it is used throughout South Asia) and Mahabharati (Indian)
Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote: Depends if they lean into the Djinn aspect, and stuff like Medieval Islam, which was at the forefront of science and alchemy and that.
I’d need to watch my Sinbad movies again (it’s a tough life!) to see other stuff. But there’s plenty there in real world historical mythology to work with.
I dunno, the Sinbad movies do feature cyclopes, a fire-breathing dragon, a Minotaur robot and an animated Kali statue, so don't take them as a good source of Arabian Nights material! Hell, even the roc is given two heads in its Sinbad appearance, so even the 'proper' stuff is warped a little.
the issue with the 1001 Nights as inspiration is that a lot of the classic stories people associate with it are either European inventions, or stories focused on characters who aren't actually Arab
Ali Baba? European invention. the flying carpet? bought in India. Aladdin? European invention, and also he's Chinese in the original story
certainly, a lot of the stories are a part of Arab culture, and could work as inspirations, but it's the sort of thing where you'd need to do research to do it properly. a tilean faction or something like that would be a lot less work for them
In fairness GW is a western fantasy creation based heavily on western fantasy tropes and concepts. They don't actually have to "get it right" they just have to interpret it in so far as is popular in western fantasy circles.
So going after things like Aladin, Sinbad, flying carpets and so on and so forth - is actually pretty much what most would expect.
Throw in some camels, elephants and a few other exotics.
How "broad" a take would also depend on if GW was going to explore other cultural mytholocal fantasy nations inspired by those in the same region.
How you depict fantastical versions of real cultures 'respectfully' or at least equally fairly, comes down to the aspects of those cultures you put front and centre.
You can be pretty gross about the french if you leaned into the english stereotypes of them, and made models with features exaggerated to reflect that and gave them the worst aspects of one time in the culture of the country.
Or you can romanticise the culture and be flattering about. Or you can mix the two to varying degrees.
But the point is what you choose to typify the faction by says a lot about the attitude towards them and how you want people to react to them.
Cathay could have gone down the feet binding, serfdom, corruption etc aspects of chinese history, they could have gone for more exaggerated physical attributes to orientalise the models.
They could have made the Empire all inbred and bucktoothed as well, but they didn't.
If they just go down the fat sleazy sultans with harems of sex slaves and thieves with their hands removed tropes, it just plays on this negative aspect. To elevate it beyond just being negative stereotypes, you need a balance of factors and you can't have the intrinsically negative physical or cultural aspects as your touchstone for the army.
StudentOfEtherium wrote: the issue with the 1001 Nights as inspiration is that a lot of the classic stories people associate with it are either European inventions, or stories focused on characters who aren't actually Arab
Ali Baba? European invention. the flying carpet? bought in India. Aladdin? European invention, and also he's Chinese in the original story
certainly, a lot of the stories are a part of Arab culture, and could work as inspirations, but it's the sort of thing where you'd need to do research to do it properly. a tilean faction or something like that would be a lot less work for them
No they wouldn't need to do a lot of research. TOW is not an historical game.As long as they don't put in some ridiculously racist things (them worshiping a pig for example), anybody with half a brain wont expect this faction to be a perfect representation of arabic/Islamic culture (whatever that means, considering theres a lot of disparities geographically and historically). Must say that the name arabyan is very unfortunate though. They probably should change it to a completely made up name
Automatically Appended Next Post: And no, ali baba and aladdin were not european invention. They were tales heard by a french orientalist from a syrian maronite story tellers
StudentOfEtherium wrote: the issue with the 1001 Nights as inspiration is that a lot of the classic stories people associate with it are either European inventions, or stories focused on characters who aren't actually Arab
Ali Baba? European invention. the flying carpet? bought in India. Aladdin? European invention, and also he's Chinese in the original story
certainly, a lot of the stories are a part of Arab culture, and could work as inspirations, but it's the sort of thing where you'd need to do research to do it properly. a tilean faction or something like that would be a lot less work for them
No they wouldn't need to do a lot of research. TOW is not an historical game.As long as they don't put in some ridiculously racist things (them worshiping a pig for example), anybody with half a brain dont expect this faction to be a perfect representation of arabic/Islamic culture (whatever that means, considering theres a lot of disparities geographically and historically). Must say that the name arabyan is very unfortunate though. They probably should change it to a completely made up name
There's no point in changing the name - albion is literally an ancient name for britain, Cathay is an archaic name for China, Nippon is literally Japan. Araby is in exactly the same vein.
I find it interesting how historical touchstones become unimportant when we want to stereotype non european cultures, but somehow being true to the spirit of history when we have the holy roman empire, the city states of the Mediterranean, the historical aspects of the weaponry and forces of every western based army is somehow really important and necessary.
GW did a really good job of WFBifying china for Cathay, and if that's the standard they're aiming for then I think they could do a great job of Araby.
Lorica Clothing did a great breakdown of the Cathay preview from the perspective of how well GW translated China to fantasy by neither pandering nor stereotyping but by being true the WFB setting. It's quite a good video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGr5ZBawDeU
StudentOfEtherium wrote: the issue with the 1001 Nights as inspiration is that a lot of the classic stories people associate with it are either European inventions, or stories focused on characters who aren't actually Arab
Ali Baba? European invention. the flying carpet? bought in India. Aladdin? European invention, and also he's Chinese in the original story
certainly, a lot of the stories are a part of Arab culture, and could work as inspirations, but it's the sort of thing where you'd need to do research to do it properly. a tilean faction or something like that would be a lot less work for them
No they wouldn't need to do a lot of research. TOW is not an historical game.As long as they don't put in some ridiculously racist things (them worshiping a pig for example), anybody with half a brain dont expect this faction to be a perfect representation of arabic/Islamic culture (whatever that means, considering theres a lot of disparities geographically and historically). Must say that the name arabyan is very unfortunate though. They probably should change it to a completely made up name
There's no point in changing the name - albion is literally an ancient name for britain, Cathay is an archaic name for China, Nippon is literally Japan. Araby is in exactly the same vein.
I find it interesting how historical touchstones become unimportant when we want to stereotype non european cultures, but somehow being true to the spirit of history when we have the holy roman empire, the city states of the Mediterranean, the historical aspects of the weaponry and forces of every western based army is somehow really important and necessary.
GW did a really good job of WFBifying china for Cathay, and if that's the standard they're aiming for then I think they could do a great job of Araby.
Lorica Clothing did a great breakdown of the Cathay preview from the perspective of how well GW translated China to fantasy by neither pandering nor stereotyping but by being true the WFB setting. It's quite a good video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGr5ZBawDeU
I mostly agree with you (see my post above), but i still think that using a name that is still used nowadays for a fantasy faction is not a good idea. For the record, i think they should also change the nippon name, since its still sometimes used to refer to the japanese people. Cathay is a different case, since i never saw/heard anybody used that name, or a derivative, to refer to the chinese people.
But I do agree that its not much of an issue. Contrary to what some westerners seems to think, most non-westerners are not insulted when their culture is used as an inspiration for a fantasy setting. Anecdotal evidence i know, but from my experience, the islamic inspired faction in Helldorado was very popular with arabs in my circle. Same thing for the alchemists in confrontation
I agree on the names had they changed them 30 years ago, but they've kept them so changing it now would likely be more noticeable and problematic.
so long as there are positive aspects to a cultural inspiration and not just the stereotype negative aspects (Would they still enjoy an arabic inspired faction if the faction was built only around fat sultans who's army is just their sex slaves?) then you can side step the issues. If they went with indolent and well educated sultans that were pre-eminent scientists as the theme, with some of the negative issues sprinkled through, you get the cultural feel but without the negative stereotype issue.
Slavery has been prominent all around the world for most of human history but you notice that none of the western inspired factions in WFB have slaves?
We don't see the Romans with slaves, despite their empire being built on the backs of slaves.
One of the most distinctive historical aspects of western history, slavery, is completely absent in depictions of WFB factions. Because it's a bad stereotype that you don't want to lead the faction identity with. They still have their negative aspects, but they don't put them as the identifying feature of the factions.
AFAIK there are only 3 explicit slave economies in WFB, the Dark Elves, Chaos Dwarfs and Skaven, all evil coded and purely fantasy (drawing on some realworld concepts, but not in the same the empire or cathay does).
Okay, a lot of reports here that there's fluff all actual news and rumour discussion going on, so again, take it somewhere else and kindly LET THIS THREAD LIE UNTIL THERE IS ACTUAL proper news and whatnot to discuss. Cheers!
Daba wrote: On FB (I think) they had some post about Griffons with some artwork of high elves. Are they hinting at a new HE Griffon or redo of the IoB one?
The Arcane Journal does have the IoB griffon on the cover, so I'm hoping it'll be re-released
It's a pretty significant oversight. The kit is just as old and just as terrible as the archers and spearmen, but it's a key unit in ToW lists. Possibly some issue with the molds?
Doubly annoying since GW could have simply done them as a dual-kit with the Ellyrian Reavers, smae horses and legs but different torsos, arms and heads.
At any rate, it's so nice to have High Elves available again.
Both the Loremaster and the Silver helms were specifically shown in the original LVO announcement as returning plastic kits, so maybe there's a wave 4 as part of a made-to-order rerelease
They apparently contacted one of the artists who worked on the Cathay Arcane Journal for interview, but they can't release the video until Autumn/Fall for various reasons
Rumour that the Beastmen AJ has something like the following:
Whenever you attempt to cast or dispel a spell, you receive a +1 to your roll for every wizard in your command range, plus bonuses from herdstone if you take it. However, any double is a miscast/outclassed in the art
Not strictly old world news but... For anybody that's looking for salamander models to use in their lizardman armies there's new drakes for LOTR that I think will fit perfectly.
That thing is basically the WHFB equivalent of a manbearpig but I kind of like it regardless! (no sarcasm) The most important thing though is the triumphant return of the pumbagore although sadly not in the clearly most superiorest of all time finecast material. (heavy sarcasm)
Dysartes wrote: As someone who has never held Pumbagor in their hands - and doesn't think he's seen one IRL - I do have to ask one question.
Is the model actually as bad in person as the pictures make it out to be?
Yes.
Made worse if it's fine cast & you've had to invest the time in cleaning it up.
I can assure you that the metal one isn't any more pleasant to clean up.
I disagree.
With the metal one it was just the usual trimming of the flash & some odd sharp bitz. A little worse than some models of the time, true.
But....
When I cleaned up one of the finecrap versions some years ago? There was so much resin all over it that needed removing that I could've sworn I was the sculptor whittling this thing out of raw material.
And the reward for all that work? A poor looking model made of an inferior material. :(
I was hoping the piggy would get redone but since it didn’t, I’ll purchase three (maybe 4 if i want a chariot) only because they are in metal and not finecrap. Fellow Beastmen player in my community has several in metal and he said they weren’t terrible in metal. But he avoided them like the plague in finecast.
I'm building a Mino army for 6th so part of me wants this paid attention to in TOW, but as I doubt we'll get new pressings of the Warhammer Quest Minotaurs I'm also not exited at the thought of it.
GW feel like they are in a bit of a strained moment release wise. There's still some stuff from Christmas that hasn't been released yet but was previewed.
The HE release has been stretched out a lot; maybe GW are going to do their MTO along with Beastmen at once.
The leak above (by someone with only 1 post so take it as you will) suggests the last of the core HE coming alongside beastmen
Heck the big Soulblight update is only just happening this Sunday
Platuan4th wrote: I'd wager that the HE MTO goes up when those models go on pre-order.
I just want to know what is actually on the High Elves MTO run... there are so many minis from the High Elf range I don't need, but would happily tack onto an MTO order.
Platuan4th wrote: I'd wager that the HE MTO goes up when those models go on pre-order.
I just want to know what is actually on the High Elves MTO run... there are so many minis from the High Elf range I don't need, but would happily tack onto an MTO order.
I don't think the content of the High Elves Made to Order wave was ever announced. Only snipped I could find on community is this:
The first wave of High Elves will be available to pre-order this Saturday. They’ll swiftly be followed by a second wave and a Made to Order release, and perhaps even a third wave down the line. And then it’s Beastmen, and then Wood Elves, and then… The Old World Almanack will return on Thursday.
Platuan4th wrote: I'd wager that the HE MTO goes up when those models go on pre-order.
I just want to know what is actually on the High Elves MTO run... there are so many minis from the High Elf range I don't need, but would happily tack onto an MTO order.
I don't think the content of the High Elves Made to Order wave was ever announced. Only snipped I could find on community is this:
The first wave of High Elves will be available to pre-order this Saturday. They’ll swiftly be followed by a second wave and a Made to Order release, and perhaps even a third wave down the line. And then it’s Beastmen, and then Wood Elves, and then… The Old World Almanack will return on Thursday.
As for the Made to Order offer, there are four sets on their way: a Mage on Unicorn, plus classic Nobles, Heroes, and Mages. These miniatures will all be very familiar to fans of various vintages. The Mage on Unicorn is a Stormweaver – a type of Elven Mage often seen alongside the Sea Guard – and a true classic, dating all the way back to 1993.
The heroes are a selection from 6th edition of Warhammer, and there’s another set of nobles from longer ago than that, including one hero you might remember from the original Warhammer Quest…
The heroes are a selection from 6th edition of Warhammer, and there’s another set of nobles from longer ago than that, including one hero you might remember from the original Warhammer Quest…
I sure hope that means the Elf Ranger is returing!
I never should have gotten rid of mine back in the day. I won't make that mistake again.
The heroes are a selection from 6th edition of Warhammer, and there’s another set of nobles from longer ago than that, including one hero you might remember from the original Warhammer Quest…
I sure hope that means the Elf Ranger is returing!
I never should have gotten rid of mine back in the day. I won't make that mistake again.
Him and The Sword of Twilight from Mordheim have been on my list since i started collecting.
Platuan4th wrote: I'd wager that the HE MTO goes up when those models go on pre-order.
I just want to know what is actually on the High Elves MTO run... there are so many minis from the High Elf range I don't need, but would happily tack onto an MTO order.
I don't think the content of the High Elves Made to Order wave was ever announced. Only snipped I could find on community is this:
The first wave of High Elves will be available to pre-order this Saturday. They’ll swiftly be followed by a second wave and a Made to Order release, and perhaps even a third wave down the line. And then it’s Beastmen, and then Wood Elves, and then… The Old World Almanack will return on Thursday.
As for the Made to Order offer, there are four sets on their way: a Mage on Unicorn, plus classic Nobles, Heroes, and Mages. These miniatures will all be very familiar to fans of various vintages. The Mage on Unicorn is a Stormweaver – a type of Elven Mage often seen alongside the Sea Guard – and a true classic, dating all the way back to 1993.
The heroes are a selection from 6th edition of Warhammer, and there’s another set of nobles from longer ago than that, including one hero you might remember from the original Warhammer Quest…
Thanks for that! Silly me was searching for "high elves" and did not get that article in my results, since it talks about "high elf"
The heroes are a selection from 6th edition of Warhammer, and there’s another set of nobles from longer ago than that, including one hero you might remember from the original Warhammer Quest…
I sure hope that means the Elf Ranger is returing!
I never should have gotten rid of mine back in the day. I won't make that mistake again.
Him and The Sword of Twilight from Mordheim have been on my list since i started collecting.
By a strange coincidence I've been using Aenur the Sword of Twilight to represent the Elf Ranger in Warhammer Quest ...
I have all the WHQ card bits and bobs for the Ranger, but not the official mini. If I recall correctly he was/is the only model representing an Elf from the remaining Old World colonies/enclaves in human lands (as distinct from the Wood Elves). Very much looking forward to nabbing him.
The WHQ Bretonnian Knight showed up in a MTO a while ago, so I have no doubt the Elf Ranger will show up too.
It would be cool if they did a MTO of the older dynamic Korhil model. That model is lean and less bulky, and would actually be better suited to represent the younger Korhil of TOW timeline.
Thats the model I used to have. and always liked it (but I know some people really dont).
The heroes are a selection from 6th edition of Warhammer, and there’s another set of nobles from longer ago than that, including one hero you might remember from the original Warhammer Quest…
I sure hope that means the Elf Ranger is returing!
I never should have gotten rid of mine back in the day. I won't make that mistake again.
Him and The Sword of Twilight from Mordheim have been on my list since i started collecting.
Why not just get Aenur from ebay? He's incredibly cheap and common there.
Fayric wrote: It would be cool if they did a MTO of the older dynamic Korhil model. That model is lean and less bulky, and would actually be better suited to represent the younger Korhil of TOW timeline.
Thats the model I used to have. and always liked it (but I know some people really dont).
That is the model I am using for my Korhil, he fits the old metal White Lions I am using for my Chrace army better. The newer metal sculpt for Korhil would have him absolutely towering over the smaller metal minis.
It still feels so insane to me seeing these old ass models being marketed and sold.
I specifically remember buying the Great Eagle for my first WHFB army, ~20 years ago, and worrying that it was an absolute shoe-in to be redone in plastic ASAP and I might just want to wait for that. lmao.
Yay wood elves!
Will be hard to pass them up. I got the dragon, an old treeman and some other stuff in safe keeping for a friend that dropped out of the hobby late 90s.
The battalion box will go a long way.
(just realised I got loads of dryads and treemen for sylvaneth aswell, even some stag riders )
Anyone else notice that the armies of infamy for Wood Elves are centered around the 2 named characters in the book...I don't think most other armies had that right? Sea Wolves with Frydaal and the troll dude with Orcs. That's all that comes to mind - this might be the first where both are tied to the AoI.
nathan2004 wrote: Anyone else notice that the armies of infamy for Wood Elves are centered around the 2 named characters in the book...I don't think most other armies had that right? Sea Wolves with Frydaal and the troll dude with Orcs. That's all that comes to mind - this might be the first where both are tied to the AoI.
Maybe not specifically by name, but:
- Sir Cecil Gastonne was meant to go into an Exile army.
- the orcs and goblins nomadic waaagh had Kiknik
- The dwarf expeditionary force had Burlok
- The empire knightly Orders has Harald Gemunsen
- The empire Nuln army has General Hans von Löwenhacke
- the high elves Chrace army has Korhil
- the high elves Sea Guard army has Ishaya Vess.
Most of the background about these armies of infamy also often center around these characters.
It has been something of a theme of these books to give the armies of infamy a special character.
EDIT: is it just me that was under the impression that GW told us that Beastmen were next? Also, it seems like eveything for Wood Elves that was announced is accounted for in this one wave? It's also weird that GW doesn't seem to be as much invested in Beastmen and Wood Elves as in the other armies; Beastmen seem to get just one new model and Wood Elves (incredibly) gets none.
nathan2004 wrote: Anyone else notice that the armies of infamy for Wood Elves are centered around the 2 named characters in the book...I don't think most other armies had that right? Sea Wolves with Frydaal and the troll dude with Orcs. That's all that comes to mind - this might be the first where both are tied to the AoI.
Maybe not specifically by name, but:
- Sir Cecil Gastonne was meant to go into an Exile army. - the orcs and goblins nomadic waaagh had Kiknik - The dwarf expeditionary force had Burlok - The empire knightly Orders has Harald Gemunsen - The empire Nuln army has General Hans von Löwenhacke - the high elves Chrace army has Korhil - the high elves Sea Guard army has Ishaya Vess.
Don't forget Royal Clan with Ungrim having rules specifically for Royal Clan.
And Beastmen will have one centered around Ghoros.
I’m bummed out it’s not beastmen next. Can’t wait to see their armies of infamy in more detail, especially the monster centric list.
And wanted to get myself that new awesome shaman in time for my bd. Oh well.
Glad to see some iconic metal wood elf models come back though, they hold up really really well.
The rumour discussion on Discord is centred around the idea that there was some problem that delayed the Beastmen - possibly a printing error or something, and that they should have been in the week when there were no pre-orders recently. The Wood Elves have either been brought forward or are keeping to their original timeslot so as not to disrupt other releases.
just make a post about about a non 
But I can't post the link in my first post.
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