The Genestealer cults are ok and a wonderful 1st turn threat now that they can infiltrate normally with allied Tyranids. They would be nearly broken as battle brothers (not as broken as grav spam/ superfriends/ free transports/ and wolfin which are all still legal) but they are fun to play with and I am looking forward to the day they finally come out with an actual codex for them.
Arkengate wrote: I guess what I'm asking is, Given i can do the 5 FHT thingy, thats fine.
Of those, are there specific uses that something is used for? Like, would there be a reason to bring a 2nd Tervigon? or add a Tyrannofex to my army? (I have one, buying the gun still!)
What exactly is the role of Exocrine, Haruspex? We have Dimachaeron, so where does Haruspex fit in? Would I ever feasibly field one? Exocrine seems to be long ranged tank killer, though. Is that Living Artillery worth actually using?
Im glad to hear shrikes are good :-)
Lastly; Have GW stated anything about Genestealers and fixing their ally issue? I know the FAQ isnt final yet, and it seems there was an uproar about it a while ago (Before i started)
In competitive play, anything besides max flying Tyrants and Tyrant support is an error. The exact Flyrant support you want to use might vary depending on point level and the details of the tournament, but that's about it. Flyrant support options boil down to Venomthropes vs Malanthrope, Mucolids vs Rippers, Mawloc vs no Mawloc. I've used or seen used Hive Crones, drop devourer gaunts, and drop Tervigon, but feel all of them are inferior to dedicating the points to more Flyrants. I used a pair of min Genestealer squads at an ITC event this weekend, and they worked well for the ITC format.
In casual games you can make almost all of the options in the book work. The only things I won't run are massed Genestealers and Pyrovores.
To answer your questions: The Exocrine puts ranged AP 2 wounds on Marines and Terminators, something that is otherwise lacking in our codex. Exocrines, stranglethorn Warriors, and Biovores can be used to make lists that put out a surprising amount of ranged firepower. Tervigon spam builds can be fun, and the Endless Swarm formation can make them close to competitive, but you end up having so many models that you have time pressure in tournament play. Haruspex can be podded in to provide a backfield cc threat. The cover bonus it gets might keep it alive long enough to charge something.
Tyrannofex's have similar use: give it electroshock grubs and acid spray, put it in a pod, and deep strike it behind something squishy in the backfield. The long range gun on the Tryannofex is a trap: it looks like it should be good, but BS3 and AP4 make it so you never actually kill anything important with it. The only time I use it is when I decide to do a long range nid shooting army for lol's, in which case I'll run a pair of them and a Biovore squad.
I am on the fence about Shrikes. I have ran them with rending, fleet and scything talons as basically Raveners with synapse, but they tend to outrun Venomthrope support and are really frail. If you upgrade them any further than that you end up with the Warrior problem: 50-80 point models that die like flies to S8. The Tyrant + Gargoyle formation combined with Shrikes could be fun as a theme army.
Timeshadow wrote: The Genestealer cults are ok and a wonderful 1st turn threat now that they can infiltrate normally with allied Tyranids. They would be nearly broken as battle brothers (not as broken as grav spam/ superfriends/ free transports/ and wolfin which are all still legal) but they are fun to play with and I am looking forward to the day they finally come out with an actual codex for them.
I'm not sure how they would be broken. Only thing the battle brothers gives them is the ability to use psychic powers and join units. So they can make a unit of Nids invisible, and the IC's could joing Nid units. (You could also have a prime join a cult unit, but there is no real benefit to it). I can't think of any Nid unit that compares to a Death Star with Invisability. Nor do I see how giving a unit stealth by joining the patriarch to it is a game changer either. I hear this "broken" argument all the time, but I just don't see it. Invisability could be considered broken, but it's less so on Nids than any other army that gets it.
I played the 2000 point ITC tournament at War Games Con in Austin Texas last weekend. I ran my Flyrants, taking 12th place in a field of ~80 with 3 wins, 1 loss, and 1 tie.
My build was 7 flying Tyrants with double devourers and egrubs, 2 Venomthropes, 5 Mucolid Spores, a 5x Genestealer brood, and a 6x Genestealer brood. I would have preferred to run 6 Mucolid's and 2 5x Genestealers, but other commitments prevented me from getting the 6th Mucolid finished. As it was I ended up having a Tyrant that was missing most of the detail work, which was a bit of an embarrassment.
I ran the Genestealers because I wanted to use infiltrate to better keep drop pods of midfield objectives and to increase my standoff distance vs grav bikers. They ended up being very useful, and I've become convinced that for ITC style tournaments the 'stealers are the best option to fill out a flyrant build.
Game 1
Win vs Marines + 1 Imperial Knight
This guy had a rather casual list, with a lot of preds and marines in rhinos. The only real threat to my Tyrants was a squad of lascanon devastators. The devastators shrugged off two Tyrant's worth of fire first turn with only one casualty, but on second turn they died, the Knight died, the Knight explosion took out enough of his warlords squad to force a leadership check, the warlord ran off the board, and after that it was mostly a matter of not making mistakes that would cost me max points. The 'stealers outflanked to pressure an objective, and managed to kill a squad of marines at the cost of a 'stealer squad.
Game 2
Loss vs Space Marines
Drop grav and drop melta with grav cents, backed up by tiggy in a pod and some scouts.
The mission was kill points. I went first. He deployed his centurions outside of max tyrant range, and a squad of scounts in some mid board terrain. I debated just hopping my Tyrants around in the backfield so that the cents wouldn't be able to get range on his first turn and trusting to venomthropes to protect me from the alpha strike, then counter it with a bunch of charges, but decided it was too risky. I got first blood from the scouts, he killed a tyrant his first turn, and we spent the next few turns trading units. I was never able to put meaningful damage on the centurions, and ended up losing the game 10-1, with only my Warlord left alive. I should note that he was a very skilled player, who knew his army and how to play it against mine.
Game 3
Win vs Imperial Knights
5 Knights, one of them a character with an improved save. I had 3 warp lances, e-grubs, and went first. I killed a knight a turn, he killed a tyrant every 2 turns. Max points and tabling on turn 5.
Game 4
Win vs Tau
He had 2 Stormsurges and 3 Riptides, an inquisitor for servo skulls, 2 naked suits, a commander with a bunch of marker drones, and a Y'vara. This was the match I most feared going into the event.
I seized, used onslaught to get some tyrants into range, and focused on the Stormsurges, doing 6 wounds to one in the first turn. His first turn he put up wounds but didn't drop a tyrant. 2nd turn I put everything I had into the Stormsurges, killing them both, then did some misc wounds to the Riptides. 3rd turn I landed most of my Tyrants, shot a Riptide to death, then got charged, losing a tyrant. The stealers and venoms spend most of the game in the backfield, getting shot up by the Y'vara and getting the occasional hold an objective point. I ended up wining primary and drawing secondary, due to shooting the wrong crisis suit and letting him get the tying point just before the game ended. Had it continued I would have gotten max points and tabled him, as he only had marker drones at that point.
Game 5
Tie vs Eldar
He had 2 Warpspinners and a cross section of eldar infantry, plus some scatbikes and a farseer in a unit of shining spears. Also a building with a lascannon on top, taken mostly to ensure he would have a line of sight blocker on the table. No wraithknight.
This was the last game and we were both out of the running for top three, so this was a rather relaxed game. He siezed (karma), killing a Tyrant for first blood. I pushed everyone who could reach into the building, managing to ground a Tyrant with perils of the warp from a warp lance that didn't have the decency to hit anything, and did some damage to the building. He spend the rest of the game picking at Tyrants while I whittled him down, a squad at a time. It ended in a tie, with me having primary, him secondary, and his first blood vs my linebreaker.
I haven't mentioned the genestealers much yet because they never really did anything spectacular. They killed a few squads of Marines, a handful of Eldar, ticked a wound off a Knight, and were target practice for Tau. Instead, each game, they earned or threatened to earn maelstrom points every mission. I could leave them in my backfield to score objectives, outflank them to get into my opponents backfield, or outflank them onto objectives near the tables edge. Flying Tyrants normally struggle to score maelstrom objectives that don't say "kill an enemy unit". The small Genestealer squads gave me a lot of maelstrom utility in units that I didn't mind losing-even if they got killed before getting a point, every bolter not fired at a Tyrant is a good thing.
Timeshadow wrote: The Genestealer cults are ok and a wonderful 1st turn threat now that they can infiltrate normally with allied Tyranids. They would be nearly broken as battle brothers (not as broken as grav spam/ superfriends/ free transports/ and wolfin which are all still legal) but they are fun to play with and I am looking forward to the day they finally come out with an actual codex for them.
I'm not sure how they would be broken. Only thing the battle brothers gives them is the ability to use psychic powers and join units. So they can make a unit of Nids invisible, and the IC's could joing Nid units. (You could also have a prime join a cult unit, but there is no real benefit to it). I can't think of any Nid unit that compares to a Death Star with Invisability. Nor do I see how giving a unit stealth by joining the patriarch to it is a game changer either. I hear this "broken" argument all the time, but I just don't see it. Invisability could be considered broken, but it's less so on Nids than any other army that gets it.
I used broken in comparison to the aforementioned offenders....and I used nearly meaning not as bad as. Honestly I think it just gives a Nid army some nice flavor and a fighting chance against the cheese factories. I even dusted off a full squad of melee Warriors to add Ghozar to but was denied by the "new" allies of convenience ruling.
So what do we think would make a good Tyranid Kill Team?
We actually have plenty of options I think, from full on horde to compact elite force.
I'd be tempted to try out 3 Warriors and a Venomthrope. Sprinkle in a Bonesword/Lashwhip and make one of them a Haywire Specialist and most bases are covered. We also have the added benefit of being able to almost completely work around the Break Tests issue with all our Fearless units.
Anyone else thought about what they would/will run?
Got all the Nid ones painted and ready to go. Interestingly, since Instinctive behaviour is not cancelled out in KT, gaunts still suffer it - meaning you need synapse if you plan on running termas. However, hormas ignore the 1-3 "eat each other" result in a squad of one, and only have to charge and can't run if they fail, which isn't so bad. So those 40 hormagaunt KTs are good to go!
We actually have plenty of options I think, from full on horde to compact elite force.
I'd be tempted to try out 3 Warriors and a Venomthrope. Sprinkle in a Bonesword/Lashwhip and make one of them a Haywire Specialist and most bases are covered. We also have the added benefit of being able to almost completely work around the Break Tests issue with all our Fearless units.
Anyone else thought about what they would/will run?
Unless we there is some exception to Synapse, then we are kind of limited to what we can take. Warriors, genestealers, and Lictors are probably our best bets. Since there won't be any 2+ saves, Warriors are probably the best choice.
A lone Hive Guard is also worth thinking about, option to give it +12" range, +1BS or re-roll failed penetrate armour, ideal for breaking open whatever transport (or T4 multi-wound models) might appear.
Just had a 2v2 kill team game with the first list above (Shrikes+Hormas). My ally was warriors and gargoyles, our foes a 5 man DW team and a big blob of guard with one plasma, one flamer, some nade launchers and 2 HB teams. I was lined up against the DW, and had to carefully place the Shrikes so his IC frag cannon couldn't off one of them immediately. Fortunately I managed, and only lost 4 hormas t1, then proceeded to massacre 3 DW with shrikes, tying the rest up with hormas (it'd be a slapfight I eventually won). My ally meanwhile crumpled a little as he lost his lead warrior t1, meaning a lot of the gargoyles went to ground and were fairly useless. He was wiped out relatively soon after after making a bit of a dent in the guard line, the HBs did a lot of work - one had split fire, the other Shred vs multiwound models.
However, by this stage we'd just about broken the guard, and fortunately a solid 6 of his army fled- but I was down to one Shrike and a handful of hormas. Some judicious multicharging (thankyou FaQ) allowed my shrike to dodge shooting for a few turns, but I was fast running out of hormas to use to soak overwatch - and his guard were surprisingly effective at chipping off the odd wound in combat. Then final turn was 3 hormas and a 1 wound shrike left against the 2 HB teams - he killed one on overwatch, and one team slapped my shrike to death, it having charged through terrain... My two hormas finished off one team, then one got killed by overwatch and the other again, slapped by that HB team. So it came down to one model on each side left in the end, so couldn'tve been much closer!
Overall my team did pretty well - not sure I'd fancy my chances against the guard 1v1 though, HBs are brutal. I'm also thinking about taking FNP on a shrike - they're reasonably durable, but tend to only have a 5+ all the time, so the additional save would really help their survivability. That said, te other two shrikes would just be prioritised in that instance, so maybe not... I really missed having a Venomthrope, Shrouded would be invaluable in Kt. Such a shame the malanthrope has 4 wounds and thus isn't allowed - it and 23 hormas would be very interesting!
I have a question: has someone ever tried a full swarm army? and with that I mean tons of gants or gargoyles.
Most competitive lists I have seen simply don't seem prepared to deal with hundreds of models. The only problems I see being synapse and time. There is little that can be done about time, but for synapse you could use Tyrants hidden in gargoyle swarms.
I played the 2000 point ITC tournament at War Games Con in Austin Texas last weekend. I ran my Flyrants, taking 12th place in a field of ~80 with 3 wins, 1 loss, and 1 tie.
Spoiler:
My build was 7 flying Tyrants with double devourers and egrubs, 2 Venomthropes, 5 Mucolid Spores, a 5x Genestealer brood, and a 6x Genestealer brood. I would have preferred to run 6 Mucolid's and 2 5x Genestealers, but other commitments prevented me from getting the 6th Mucolid finished. As it was I ended up having a Tyrant that was missing most of the detail work, which was a bit of an embarrassment.
I ran the Genestealers because I wanted to use infiltrate to better keep drop pods of midfield objectives and to increase my standoff distance vs grav bikers. They ended up being very useful, and I've become convinced that for ITC style tournaments the 'stealers are the best option to fill out a flyrant build.
Game 1
Win vs Marines + 1 Imperial Knight
This guy had a rather casual list, with a lot of preds and marines in rhinos. The only real threat to my Tyrants was a squad of lascanon devastators. The devastators shrugged off two Tyrant's worth of fire first turn with only one casualty, but on second turn they died, the Knight died, the Knight explosion took out enough of his warlords squad to force a leadership check, the warlord ran off the board, and after that it was mostly a matter of not making mistakes that would cost me max points. The 'stealers outflanked to pressure an objective, and managed to kill a squad of marines at the cost of a 'stealer squad.
Game 2
Loss vs Space Marines
Drop grav and drop melta with grav cents, backed up by tiggy in a pod and some scouts.
The mission was kill points. I went first. He deployed his centurions outside of max tyrant range, and a squad of scounts in some mid board terrain. I debated just hopping my Tyrants around in the backfield so that the cents wouldn't be able to get range on his first turn and trusting to venomthropes to protect me from the alpha strike, then counter it with a bunch of charges, but decided it was too risky. I got first blood from the scouts, he killed a tyrant his first turn, and we spent the next few turns trading units. I was never able to put meaningful damage on the centurions, and ended up losing the game 10-1, with only my Warlord left alive. I should note that he was a very skilled player, who knew his army and how to play it against mine.
Game 3
Win vs Imperial Knights
5 Knights, one of them a character with an improved save. I had 3 warp lances, e-grubs, and went first. I killed a knight a turn, he killed a tyrant every 2 turns. Max points and tabling on turn 5.
Game 4
Win vs Tau
He had 2 Stormsurges and 3 Riptides, an inquisitor for servo skulls, 2 naked suits, a commander with a bunch of marker drones, and a Y'vara. This was the match I most feared going into the event.
I seized, used onslaught to get some tyrants into range, and focused on the Stormsurges, doing 6 wounds to one in the first turn. His first turn he put up wounds but didn't drop a tyrant. 2nd turn I put everything I had into the Stormsurges, killing them both, then did some misc wounds to the Riptides. 3rd turn I landed most of my Tyrants, shot a Riptide to death, then got charged, losing a tyrant. The stealers and venoms spend most of the game in the backfield, getting shot up by the Y'vara and getting the occasional hold an objective point. I ended up wining primary and drawing secondary, due to shooting the wrong crisis suit and letting him get the tying point just before the game ended. Had it continued I would have gotten max points and tabled him, as he only had marker drones at that point.
Game 5
Tie vs Eldar
He had 2 Warpspinners and a cross section of eldar infantry, plus some scatbikes and a farseer in a unit of shining spears. Also a building with a lascannon on top, taken mostly to ensure he would have a line of sight blocker on the table. No wraithknight.
This was the last game and we were both out of the running for top three, so this was a rather relaxed game. He siezed (karma), killing a Tyrant for first blood. I pushed everyone who could reach into the building, managing to ground a Tyrant with perils of the warp from a warp lance that didn't have the decency to hit anything, and did some damage to the building. He spend the rest of the game picking at Tyrants while I whittled him down, a squad at a time. It ended in a tie, with me having primary, him secondary, and his first blood vs my linebreaker.
I haven't mentioned the genestealers much yet because they never really did anything spectacular. They killed a few squads of Marines, a handful of Eldar, ticked a wound off a Knight, and were target practice for Tau. Instead, each game, they earned or threatened to earn maelstrom points every mission. I could leave them in my backfield to score objectives, outflank them to get into my opponents backfield, or outflank them onto objectives near the tables edge. Flying Tyrants normally struggle to score maelstrom objectives that don't say "kill an enemy unit". The small Genestealer squads gave me a lot of maelstrom utility in units that I didn't mind losing-even if they got killed before getting a point, every bolter not fired at a Tyrant is a good thing.
Congrats on your finish. Last year (or maybe it was the year before), krootman took a 6-flyrant list with allied Daemons (for summoning) and did really well at Nova. Now we up the ante with 7.
Flyrant-spam Tyranids IMO can potentially do better in the NOVA format due to the ability to score at the end of the game as opposed to the ITC, where they will be missing out on the progressive Maelstrom points by not claiming objectives each turn. Good to see your bugs putting up a good fight. Flyrant-spam Tyranids are a good anti-meta army right now, but that may change once Death from the Skies gets legalized for competitive play in the US.
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Tyran wrote: I have a question: has someone ever tried a full swarm army? and with that I mean tons of gants or gargoyles.
Most competitive lists I have seen simply don't seem prepared to deal with hundreds of models. The only problems I see being synapse and time. There is little that can be done about time, but for synapse you could use Tyrants hidden in gargoyle swarms.
That's an intriguing list. I myself have played with the idea of running a 90-gargoyle list (including Skyblight) but then the reality of building/painting 90 gargoyles crashes my dream every time. Lol.
There was someone here who ran the Endless Swarm formation. Competitively, his results in tournament play were only so-so.
I myself tried a semi-swarm with a 2-tervigon-60-termagant list at the BAO. Unfortunately, they didn't do too well there either.
The problem is that deathstar-type and/or the more extreme shooty lists can still chew through hordes of bugs, especially one without malanthropes/venomthropes in them.
The other problem is that this type of list cannot deal with massed vehicles the likes of Battle Company. They can just park their ObSec transports/drop pods on objectives and then you've got a mountain to climb just because you really don't have much options for AT.
Against the right list, the Tyranid swarm army can excel. However, there's just too many lists in competitive play that can deal with a bug swarm.
Tyran wrote: I have a question: has someone ever tried a full swarm army? and with that I mean tons of gants or gargoyles.
Most competitive lists I have seen simply don't seem prepared to deal with hundreds of models. The only problems I see being synapse and time. There is little that can be done about time, but for synapse you could use Tyrants hidden in gargoyle swarms.
So I actually did and have an upcoming plan with swarm nids, based off of a large swarm army I ran for last year. I did a number of battle reports leading up to the TSHFT championship last year here in Washington.
First thing I found was time. (duh) My swarm when playing a game that reached it's natural conclusion at turn 6 nearly always won. Numbers were in my favor and there wasn't an army out there that had enough firepower to take out the whole army before it reached and chopped them up. Especially as when running endless swarm and spore field they were coming back half the time.
However in competition, when limited to 2 1/2 hours that changed. I completed one game in six to it's natural conclusion, which I won. One game ended super early turn two due to pod traps coming into play and his sky hammer landing so close without ignores cover, that they got run over the next turn.
The other four games however were what I would expect in general tournament play. There wasn't enough time (all four games ended on turn 3) Drop pods vs swarm just takes too much time.
Two games were against drop pods with white scar grav cannons. Both of them got first turn, both of them dropped in and ganked both of my flyrants with their one grav squad. (This was super frustrating.) One game was against flyrant spam with sky blight. Even with it ending turn three, I had the relic. However two surviving gargoyles in close combat with my unit that held the relic had objective secured, thus taking it from me because it is now an objective. The final game was against war convocation, and I just didn't have time to get across the table in three turns to contest or take objectives.
The primary things I learned from all of this when running swarm (I'm planning to run a different swarm at TSHFT this year.):
Flyrants are actually a poor investment. Flight paths with over 100 models on the table get real limited, and I found them either killed before they could fly, deep striking at at the whims of reserve dice when I needed them, or trapped to the outskirts of the table. I've ditched them from my list.
Trygon: While a tunnel makes sense when bringing the endless swarm, it rarely worked out for me. Twice I felt like I needed the beast on the table from turn one, so I didn't even make the hole in the first place.
Endless swarm: Returning gribblies are cool, but again, without that long game they don't work out in your favor.
Anti-tank: Throughout my test games, anti-tank was one of my largest weakness'. The fact that my basic monstrous creatures couldn't reliably kill a drop pod was incredibly frustrating. Crushing claws are a must, and you need three or four sets of tank hunters.
Defense: A bunker with an escape hatch and twenty hormagaunts puts a massive force within 8-10" of an opponent turn one. That's intimidating. However, if you aren't going first, your opponent gets to blow apart a large portion of your deployment and can then handle that force when it pops out. Inability to charge that first turn neuters the threat without overwhelming additional threats. My preference for the bunker has changed to the old reliable void shield. This protects a lot of your army and can castrate some opponents that can't get through the shield.
Spore field: This does the threat overload. Bombs that are disposable, don't give points, and come back half the time are dangerous and frustrating for an opponent that isn't dropping in. I don't think I can design an army without it currently. (This will all change when they can't return to the table with deep strike.)
My current version has around 120 models, the void shield, spore field, genestealer cult and a couple of crushing claw tervignons. Life prevents me from the in depth battle reports (or really even getting a game in). So I won't get to share as much, but I will report back what happens when I do finally get to take it out for a spin.
Well, time to report in on the Malceptor findings. Overall findings...average. Before I go any further, I will report that several abnormalities occurred during the tests such as making most saves as well as pulling catalyst or paroxysm most games with the odd The Horror every so often.
Overall, I ran it with a full brood of gargoyles and 2 individual zoanthropes. They would surround a transport and pin it to terrain and then pop it, killing roughly half a squad through a failure to deploy. Beyond that, in support of large swarms, they did manage to soak up a fair bit of firepower and proved to be worth the extra points and powers over a trio of warriors. I won't say that they will perform well most of the time, but there does seem to be some use for them, but not before warriors are seen competitively.
With the new FAQ for psychic powers letting the Melceptor actully use it's powers without rolling to hit is the psychic formation now useable? I'm actully considering it so some feedback would be nice. I don't get anywhere near the number of games in that I'd like so I can't personally test it very well.
So I have a tournament upcoming that is 'escalation' style, meaning the first game is going to be 750 points, growing to 1250, growing to 1750.
This is at my LGS, so not terribly cutthroat.
Any thoughts on this 750 list? Genestealer Cult, with a small Tyranid allied detachment
GENESTEALER CULT Ghosar Quintus Broodkin
TYRANIDS Deathleaper
Mucolid
Deathleaper might seem odd, but if you only have 150 points left, he's about the only IC you can still include in the Nid list (barring the Prime). I would have perhaps liked to add another small CAD of Genestealer Cult instead, but with the characters all being unique, I can't do that.
I know I could just include a Genestealer Cult CAD instead of the Broodkin, but losing army wide Infiltrate and Stealth isn't worth it IMO.
If anyone has some thoughts how else to spend the last 150 points (some Imperial Guard?), they are more than welcome!
Any thoughts?
I like the leaper and mucolid, fits a theme and deathleaper is super tough to get warlord from. You can hide him on your deepstrike after initial moves have forced your opponent to commit.
My other thought though would be using the sporefield. It's 90 points to start with, but six additional units, you can beef up each of them to reach 150 on the dot, and it is super useful as you expand the army. It infiltrates, and if you have good return rolls, you end up with a bunch of free points.
Given the news that Codex: Genestealer Cult is coming out next week, I'll be holding off until I can get my hands on it; hopefully it will give me more options
Polkadragon wrote: Given the news that Codex: Genestealer Cult is coming out next week, I'll be holding off until I can get my hands on it; hopefully it will give me more options
That is Very cool! I have been out of circulation for a while...Should we start a seprate Tactics thread for the Cult?
Timeshadow wrote:With the new FAQ for psychic powers letting the Melceptor actully use it's powers without rolling to hit is the psychic formation now useable? I'm actully considering it so some feedback would be nice. I don't get anywhere near the number of games in that I'd like so I can't personally test it very well.
Sorry for the delay! Honestly, I find that it was really underwhelming. You could probably find better mileage out of better dedicated anti tank.
pinecone77 wrote:
Polkadragon wrote: Given the news that Codex: Genestealer Cult is coming out next week, I'll be holding off until I can get my hands on it; hopefully it will give me more options
That is Very cool! I have been out of circulation for a while...Should we start a seprate Tactics thread for the Cult?
Probably not. It will still be valuable information here if Genestealer Cults are battle brothers with Tyranids.
How many synapse creatures do you need in a list ?
My friend is doing an army, for casual play which is the following
2 flying tyrants
3 carnifex with double twin linked devourers
about 30 horma
20 gargoyles
about 30 terma
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope
one squad of 2 zoanthropes
1 sporocyst
1 trygon
He wants his list to be 2000pts, but he doesn't know what to add. I think he has enough synapse, but he wants to add "as many as possible".
Warriors, or more zoanthropes maybe.
So, what would you add to this army (our meta isn't competitvel) ?
I'm asking to Dakka, as there are more people ! Thanks !
godardc wrote: How many synapse creatures do you need in a list ?
My friend is doing an army, for casual play which is the following
2 flying tyrants
3 carnifex with double twin linked devourers
about 30 horma
20 gargoyles
about 30 terma
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope
one squad of 2 zoanthropes
1 sporocyst
1 trygon
He wants his list to be 2000pts, but he doesn't know what to add. I think he has enough synapse, but he wants to add "as many as possible".
Warriors, or more zoanthropes maybe.
So, what would you add to this army (our meta isn't competitvel) ?
I'm asking to Dakka, as there are more people ! Thanks !
Sporocyst can be a fun way to make your synapse more effective, but I wouldn't count on it. I tend to calculate 1 synapse per 500 points, +1. So for 2000 points I would aim at 5 synapse units. You have the zoats and two flyrants so far. Turn the venemthropes into malanthropes both and you have five synapse, the same shrouding, and a tougher creature. Alternately, if your friend is feeling swarmy, adding 30 termagants and a Tervignon in troops gives a lot of objective secured, and another synapse. Cheapest available from that list however would be to upgrade the Trygon to a prime, 40 points for a deep striking synapse with the same model.
I would also consider taking at least three troops total, so you can utilize the hive fleet leviathin CAD. That allows you to re-roll your instinctive behavior if you do find yourself failing a test.
That sounds reasonable, personally I usually reccomend at least one Synapse for every turn you expect the game to last. Because your foe may try to kill your Synapse so for 2000 I'd want between 6 and 7...so...6 or more.
I like using both Zoeys and Warrior Broods...Warriors can fill a Troop slot too...
godardc wrote: How many synapse creatures do you need in a list ?
My friend is doing an army, for casual play which is the following
2 flying tyrants
3 carnifex with double twin linked devourers
about 30 horma
20 gargoyles
about 30 terma
1 venomthrope
1 venomthrope
one squad of 2 zoanthropes
1 sporocyst
1 trygon
He wants his list to be 2000pts, but he doesn't know what to add. I think he has enough synapse, but he wants to add "as many as possible".
Warriors, or more zoanthropes maybe.
So, what would you add to this army (our meta isn't competitvel) ?
I'm asking to Dakka, as there are more people ! Thanks !
I would definitly upgrade the 2 venoms into a Malanthrope to give you +1, then you could seperate the 2 Zoanthropes into 2 broods of 1 giving you another +1. I think this with what he already has should be enough. I find warriors overcosted and far too easy to kill. I guess the upgrade to your Trygon to a prime is another +1 if he really wants more synapse.
I count up the army as being around 1700 points as it is. So that's plenty or room to turn both venemthropes into Malanthropes, and ad a troop tervignon in growing to 2000.
I like running my tervignons focusing on Crushing claws, and potentially taking adrenal glands as well. They become vehicle destroyers that really spread out your anti tank. Being the equivalent of a melta gun first turn of combat is really nice.
If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games.
It makes me remember a few weeks ago when I asked about gaunt spam lists.
I think it might be true. I've been playing with the Endless Swarm formation and so far it's been a successful list simply because it covers the board, limiting movement for the opponent.
On a related note, is there an official ruling for whether the Endless Swarm Formation has 2 or 3 termagant broods?
If you think Tyranids can't currently give any codex in the game a run for their money in a game that goes to it's natural conclusion, you need to play more. As it stands, the biggest reason Tyranids aren't a top tier tournament codex is you simply cannot play a 100+ model army (That may even have returning models) to turn 5/6 in 2.5 hours. Our book has all the tools to completely dominate objective based games.
It makes me remember a few weeks ago when I asked about gaunt spam lists.
As the horde player, I would normally agree. The differences mostly come from what your opponent brings. I got my oldest friend into the game with IG, and I'm not afraid to admit that as his most often opponent, he brings a solid IG list that is very dangerous to my tyranids, packed with flamers and grenade launchers. Right now, the game is heavily centric on elite small model count armies that can bring overwhelming firepower in as small a package as possible, or just doing something your opponent just cannot stop through MSU spam.
Tyranids field massive hordes quiet easily, but even I will admit that once I drop 150-250 models on the table for even small point games, there is only so much I can do. Templates rip quite a large chunk out of my blobs, and with a lot of the tourney staples currently seeing action, it doesn't take much to completely neuter a blob to the point where I have to pull it back to a rear objective to go to ground while I have fresh blobs take their place.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Probably not. It will still be valuable information here if Genestealer Cults are battle brothers with Tyranids.
Unfortunately, I don't see them changing the information and the GSC from Deathwatch are Allies of Convenience........I don't get it
Hopefully Allies of convenience was a gapstop to stop invis shenanigans. Now that GS cult have their own psy powers they will likely loose invis and can maby be battle brothers again.... I'm being optimistic.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Probably not. It will still be valuable information here if Genestealer Cults are battle brothers with Tyranids.
Unfortunately, I don't see them changing the information and the GSC from Deathwatch are Allies of Convenience........I don't get it
Hopefully Allies of convenience was a gapstop to stop invis shenanigans. Now that GS cult have their own psy powers they will likely loose invis and can maby be battle brothers again.... I'm being optimistic.
invis shenanigans??? What unit in a Tyranid army would it be called over powered on? One MC which dies to heave fire even with Invis on it?? Raveners? Maybe ... nothing realy. Is there a lot of thing it would be helpful on.. Yes a lot of thing.
It was not long ago that Tyranids had full BRB powers and it was not called shenanigans..
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Probably not. It will still be valuable information here if Genestealer Cults are battle brothers with Tyranids.
Unfortunately, I don't see them changing the information and the GSC from Deathwatch are Allies of Convenience........I don't get it
Hopefully Allies of convenience was a gapstop to stop invis shenanigans. Now that GS cult have their own psy powers they will likely loose invis and can maby be battle brothers again.... I'm being optimistic.
invis shenanigans??? What unit in a Tyranid army would it be called over powered on? One MC which dies to heave fire even with Invis on it?? Raveners? Maybe ... nothing realy. Is there a lot of thing it would be helpful on.. Yes a lot of thing.
It was not long ago that Tyranids had full BRB powers and it was not called shenanigans..
Getting really tired people saying that.!!
I agree that invisible nids are no worse than I've seen from other Armies but it seems that GW thinks differently. As I mentioned before it gives us a non flyrant tool in the box which is a good thing.
Unyielding Hunger wrote: Probably not. It will still be valuable information here if Genestealer Cults are battle brothers with Tyranids.
Unfortunately, I don't see them changing the information and the GSC from Deathwatch are Allies of Convenience........I don't get it
Hopefully Allies of convenience was a gapstop to stop invis shenanigans. Now that GS cult have their own psy powers they will likely loose invis and can maby be battle brothers again.... I'm being optimistic.
invis shenanigans??? What unit in a Tyranid army would it be called over powered on? One MC which dies to heave fire even with Invis on it?? Raveners? Maybe ... nothing realy. Is there a lot of thing it would be helpful on.. Yes a lot of thing.
It was not long ago that Tyranids had full BRB powers and it was not called shenanigans..
Getting really tired people saying that.!!
I miss having Biomancy. It would ramp the codex up another tier with just that change alone. After seeing the leaked GSC rules, the cynic in me half way thinks that they were made allies of convenience just so Nids wouldn't have access to biomancy again.
GSCGS are also elites, so never OS. They're really solid, but HNR is a really big deal for GS, especially Troops GS. Means you can hit a unit, then bounce out to grab an objective. Would be nice to get stealth/HNR on Nid stealers, if we got the 3A then I'd reckon they would be a very common entry.
Looking like the Patriarch+GS formation may be a really good addition to a normal Nid army, as from what I've read it looks like that gets 3 rolls on the ambush table?
While the pick your ambush warlord trait is amazing, I'm not sure I'd want to make a Patriarch my warlord.
The REAL show stopper in that book, from what I'm gathering, is the 8(9?) point guys with 3A and rending who can take an open topped transport. That puts Boyz to shame. Even 1 of those hitting most things in the game will be quite painful. Against deathstar units, you could easily slam 4-5 of them into it from multiple sides, heavily splitting up the enemy's attacks while pouring a ton of your own in. Possibility to have a ton of psychic dice to shut down invis is also a really big deal.
The familiars are REALLY good, basically a GS attack profile for 5 points, no reason to never spend the 10 points and put 2 of those on a patriarch.
Lots of good stuff in this book, although I don't know how it'll do for staying power in long games. The shadows/ambush looks like it could be really powerful for objective grabbing and keeping backfield units from being chipped away.
Interested to have a full copy of the book in the coming days.
So I see people talking how GSC is going to use Tyranids to improve their army filling holes such as anit air flyrants but now we have access to some decent mid/long range firepower from GSC allies. Also with GSC Genestealers allied in there will never be a reason to use our Genestealers again (rippers/gaunts are much better/cheaper OS Troops than Stealers)
I'm kind of bummed out that GW decided to make Genestealer Cult AoC with IG, as it might very well be that in a while we till think of Genestealer Cult as a prolongation of IG, and not of Tyranids.
I have a hunch that IG benefits more from GC than Tyranids do. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
At the very least an GC/IG army should be forced to have the GC as the primary detachment, seeing how the only instance they would play nice with eachother would be with IG as tools in the hands of the Cult. IG could never use and trust units of traitorous alien half-breed guards, who wants to slaughter all non-Tyranids. It defies all logic. Once the Genestealer Cult set their century old plan in motion and uncover their horrible monstrous off-spring to ravage the planet, they wont join forces with any human scum against any third party, and even less will they be enlisted in the armies of the Imperium.
"How did we win against the Genestealer Cult general?"
"Why, we recruted them of course! It was scary for a few hours, but as it turned out they were merely cold and hungry and wanted nice bunk-beds to sleep in."
N.I.B. wrote: I'm kind of bummed out that GW decided to make Genestealer Cult AoC with IG, as it might very well be that in a while we till think of Genestealer Cult as a prolongation of IG, and not of Tyranids.
I have a hunch that IG benefits more from GC than Tyranids do. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
At the very least an GC/IG army should be forced to have the GC as the primary detachment, seeing how the only instance they would play nice with eachother would be with IG as tools in the hands of the Cult. IG could never use and trust units of traitorous alien half-breed guards, who wants to slaughter all non-Tyranids. It defies all logic. Once the Genestealer Cult set their century old plan in motion and uncover their horrible monstrous off-spring to ravage the planet, they wont join forces with any human scum against any third party, and even less will they be enlisted in the armies of the Imperium.
"How did we win against the Genestealer Cult general?"
"Why, we recruted them of course! It was scary for a few hours, but as it turned out they were merely cold and hungry and wanted nice bunk-beds to sleep in."
Well think of it as a win for Tyranids.
If AM/Guard are allies that means we have our "claws" in those units and they are doing their job.
I could also see if just as or before the Cult is ready to uprise another army comes to invade and the Cult needs to fight alongside the Guard to A) keep control of the world for their gods, and B) the invaders would kill them all such as Necrons or chaos or even Orks so they need to use every tactic at their disposal just to survive. (of course after if they win the cultists need to take over since they can't explain away what just happened, if they don't win it really dosen't matter.)
N.I.B. wrote: I'm kind of bummed out that GW decided to make Genestealer Cult AoC with IG, as it might very well be that in a while we till think of Genestealer Cult as a prolongation of IG, and not of Tyranids.
I have a hunch that IG benefits more from GC than Tyranids do. And that's a hard pill to swallow.
I think both armies can benefit a lot from GSC allies. IG gains some surprisingly mobile objective grabbers, and some nice CC support. Nids gain ranged anti tank and a hedge against deathstars. By anti Deathstar I mean this; the problem Nids have against deathstars is that we tend lose all of our ground units, which forces our air units to land and get mulched. GSCs allow us to play keep away games from the Death Stars. They get close, the unit can go back into reserves and try for another objective next turn. This helps even up the kill point disparity that we usual face.
If you want a fluffy reason for an IG army to ally in a small number of GS cultists, there are three I can think of pretty easily:
1) The IG leadership doesn't know that the GS cultists are anything other than human. This could be because they were a PDF or militia unit that hasn't been contacted for a while but has made it to the battlefield rendezvous point; "we know we have some forces on the left flank, don't know too much about them, believed to be planetary militia of some kind, by the Emperor they DO seem to be making a mess of those Orks, fantastic." Or it could be that the GS cult has somehow clouded the minds of the Guard -- not to the point of taking them over, just to the point that they do not look too hard for biomorphs.
2) The IG leadership doesn't care that the GS cultists are anything other than human. Desperate times, or rather dodgy Guard, could mean this is the case. The Guard leadership may fully anticipate wiping out the Cult... once this more dangerous threat has been dealt with.
3) Although the Cult is the smaller faction numerically, they have still completely subverted the Guard. Enough of their number have enough positions of power (counting for all purposes as sergeants, command squads, etc.).
Traceoftoxin wrote: GSCGS are also elites, so never OS. They're really solid, but HNR is a really big deal for GS, especially Troops GS. Means you can hit a unit, then bounce out to grab an objective. Would be nice to get stealth/HNR on Nid stealers, if we got the 3A then I'd reckon they would be a very common entry.
Looking like the Patriarch+GS formation may be a really good addition to a normal Nid army, as from what I've read it looks like that gets 3 rolls on the ambush table?
I have the book and can't see any way that this happens. It's not a formation bonus for gene stealers as far as I can see. The subterranean uprising formation gives you two rolls on the table, increased to three rolls if a primus joins the unit. However, that formation only includes metamorphs, aberrants and acolytes (and of course the primus).
Would love to be missing something, as three rolls on the table actually means that more games than not you'll be assaulting from reserves on either turn 1 or turn 2.
Ratius wrote: Mate, fluff = rules.
Nor sales in a new Nid codex.
GSC have trumped any sort of new stealer nid release imo :(
I don't understand your response.
I gave you a reason why the stat lines for Genestealers are different in the two codexes.
You have not provided any reason why Genestealers would dropped from codex Tyranids. They've been in both armies since second edition. They are the only thing that ties the two armies together. Removing them from Tyranids serves no purpose.
The only thing implied by cult stealers having better stats is that the main codex Tyranids may get buffed to match, when the next Tyranids codex comes out.
Ok.
1. the ability to get GS's these days is a penny to a pound (space hulk x3 , 2nd ed, GSC, space crusade)
2. GSC gave them a decent buff
3. Nid codex will get updated
4. GW like sales
5. unless the Nids GS match the GSC (which they wont imho) due to the above
6. GW drops them from the Nid codex
7. new unit / new idea
8. GSC is now the primary driver for GS 9. Nids GS get retconned / new unit in their place.
GW doesn't realize that good rules = sales, as the Maleceptor is a thing. To GW, having GS in both armies means doubling the sales for the same model.
Plus, there are plenty of examples of armies sharing units, or similar units. Practically all the Marine armies are the same units with some different special rules.
Ian Sturrock wrote: If you want a fluffy reason for an IG army to ally in a small number of GS cultists, there are three I can think of pretty easily:
1) The IG leadership doesn't know that the GS cultists are anything other than human. This could be because they were a PDF or militia unit that hasn't been contacted for a while but has made it to the battlefield rendezvous point; "we know we have some forces on the left flank, don't know too much about them, believed to be planetary militia of some kind, by the Emperor they DO seem to be making a mess of those Orks, fantastic." Or it could be that the GS cult has somehow clouded the minds of the Guard -- not to the point of taking them over, just to the point that they do not look too hard for biomorphs.
2) The IG leadership doesn't care that the GS cultists are anything other than human. Desperate times, or rather dodgy Guard, could mean this is the case. The Guard leadership may fully anticipate wiping out the Cult... once this more dangerous threat has been dealt with.
3) Although the Cult is the smaller faction numerically, they have still completely subverted the Guard. Enough of their number have enough positions of power (counting for all purposes as sergeants, command squads, etc.).
4) You get a planet as seen in some of the early 40k novels where the planet worship the Emperor as the four armed god, essential seeing the Genestealer as an avatar incarnate of the Emperor. Now you have the Imperial PDF through a warped view of the Imperial Cult believing they are fightin for the Imperium under the leadership of the Four Armed God when lead by the GSC.
The thing about GSC Genestealers vs Nids ones is that they are just better, it "shouldnt" matter why they are better, point for point they are just better in everyway.
Ian Sturrock wrote: If you want a fluffy reason for an IG army to ally in a small number of GS cultists, there are three I can think of pretty easily:
1) The IG leadership doesn't know that the GS cultists are anything other than human. This could be because they were a PDF or militia unit that hasn't been contacted for a while but has made it to the battlefield rendezvous point; "we know we have some forces on the left flank, don't know too much about them, believed to be planetary militia of some kind, by the Emperor they DO seem to be making a mess of those Orks, fantastic." Or it could be that the GS cult has somehow clouded the minds of the Guard -- not to the point of taking them over, just to the point that they do not look too hard for biomorphs.
2) The IG leadership doesn't care that the GS cultists are anything other than human. Desperate times, or rather dodgy Guard, could mean this is the case. The Guard leadership may fully anticipate wiping out the Cult... once this more dangerous threat has been dealt with.
3) Although the Cult is the smaller faction numerically, they have still completely subverted the Guard. Enough of their number have enough positions of power (counting for all purposes as sergeants, command squads, etc.).
Your 3) is the only option that makes sense, imo. The Cult has taken over/hypnotized the command of the Imperial forces. It's not like they wouldn't understand that the screeching three-armed monstrocities aren't human, or that they would trust Cult units enough to depend on them following orders.
Ratius wrote: Anyone think the advent of the better Stealer stats under GSC will see them drop from the next Nid codex?
Personnally I do.
I'd guess it's a 50/50 chance of Genestealers going the way of Eldar Harlequins and be lifted out of the 'parent' codex.
Call me an optimist, but I'm hoping that we just get GSC stealers in our next dex. Would be some of the best troops of all time, and with the malanthrope's shrouded bubble? Drooling
luke1705 wrote: Call me an optimist, but I'm hoping that we just get GSC stealers in our next dex. Would be some of the best troops of all time, and with the malanthrope's shrouded bubble? Drooling
I agree. But...it does violate a "meta" rule; "Tyranids are not allowed nice things"
I think there's a fair chance they'll be upgraded to GSC stats/abilities, but become Elites....I Think I'm "OK" with that...
luke1705 wrote: Call me an optimist, but I'm hoping that we just get GSC stealers in our next dex. Would be some of the best troops of all time, and with the malanthrope's shrouded bubble? Drooling
I agree. But...it does violate a "meta" rule; "Tyranids are not allowed nice things"
I think there's a fair chance they'll be upgraded to GSC stats/abilities, but become Elites....I Think I'm "OK" with that...
I agree and would be good with the GSC statline as an elite. We would not get cult inf but hopefully we will get our own patriarch a buffet too.
luke1705 wrote: Call me an optimist, but I'm hoping that we just get GSC stealers in our next dex. Would be some of the best troops of all time, and with the malanthrope's shrouded bubble? Drooling
I agree. But...it does violate a "meta" rule; "Tyranids are not allowed nice things"
I think there's a fair chance they'll be upgraded to GSC stats/abilities, but become Elites....I Think I'm "OK" with that...
I agree and would be good with the GSC statline as an elite. We would not get cult inf but hopefully we will get our own patriarch a buffet too.
They have been elite before, and fluff wise as shock troops it does make some sense for them to be elite.
Played around with lists last night, realized at 1850 I can fit 5 Flyrants and a maxed out Subterranean Uprising. What do you guys think of the following as a competitive list?
Apologies if I've missed pages of GSC chat but, even if someone has to summarise briefly, what are the initial thoughts with how to best utilise the combination of GSC and Tyranids?
Allying in a Subterranean Uprising (like above), or a First Curse (because good genestealers)? Maybe using GSC as the main detachment and just allying as many Flyrants as possible?
jifel wrote: Played around with lists last night, realized at 1850 I can fit 5 Flyrants and a maxed out Subterranean Uprising. What do you guys think of the following as a competitive list?
Nice! The one "issue" I have with max Fly'rants is lack of "table presence" and this gives some good mobile infantry. Please let me (us) know how it plays.
Automatically Appended Next Post: I just got the Codex and am still reading it...but I think a "fluffy" list might be:
Deathleaper
Lictor
Lictor
Stealer
Stealer (colored by Fleet to keep seperate)
Mawloc
Mawloc
Subterainian uprising as the main formation? Would be both strong and fluffy Everybody gets cool Bio-ninja skilz, and you can Mawloc Death stars.
I am also pondering using Cult Astra Militaria as infantry...they have an armored outflank formation that might be fun.
jifel wrote: Played around with lists last night, realized at 1850 I can fit 5 Flyrants and a maxed out Subterranean Uprising. What do you guys think of the following as a competitive list?
Not that I would ever field it (Wayyyy to cheezy) but I would make the following changes.
Tyranid CAD+Hive Fleet 1335pts
5x Flyrant 2x TL Div,EG,Wings
3x Mucilid (Hive fleet Troop tax)
2x Ripper Brood of 3 with DS(OS Troops from CAD)
Sub Uprising 515pts
Primis
10 Metamorphs w Claws 2 Hand Flamers (Primus's Squad)
5 Metamorphs w Claws 1 Hand Flamer
5 Metamorphs w Claws 1 Hand Flamer
5 Acolytes 1 rock saw
5 Acolytes 1 rock saw
5 Acolytes
5 Acolytes
The Malanthrope really is not needed, if the opponent is crazy drop pods or some other alpha strike crazyness just keep all the flyrants in reserve and scatter rippers mucilids and a pair of acolyte squads to prevent tabling.
Automatically Appended Next Post: A "slightly" less cheezy competitive list: 1850pts
Tyranid CAD
2x Flyrant 2x TL Div, EG, Wings(anti Air/Kick Butt)
2x Ripper Brood of 3 w DS(OS Troop Tax)
2x Zoanthrope Brood of 1(for extre WC)
1x Zoanthrope Brood of 3 w Nero (Extra Psy surprise)
Cult Uprising Super detachment
Cavalcade
10 Neophytes 2 Flamers Chimera
10 Neophytes 2 Flamers Chimera
Nova Russ w HB sponsons
Armored Sentinel Heavy Flamer (Cult ambushing heavy flamage)
Armored Sentinel Heavy Flamer
Sub Uprising
Primus
10 Metamorphs w claws, 2x hand flamer(Prime&Magus's home unit of nasty)
5 Metamorphs w claws, 1 Hand Flamer
5 Metamorphs w claws, 1 Hand Flamer
5 Acolytes(rendy suprise)
5 Acolytes
5 Acolytes
Lord of Cult
Magus ML2, Crouchling, Familiar (Join Primus Meta squad for some Psy Shinanigans)
Total WC: 12, 5 units of 2 dice Cult ambushing hurrassers, 1 Nasty unit of Metamorphs/Primus/Magus that rolls 3 dice for ambush, 2 Anit Air Flyrants, 2 Zoies hide backfield and maby hold an objective or two. Nero brood charges up the middle to wreak havoic wile flyrants and GSC draw attention. Not to mention the cult ambushing Heavy flamer sentenels, the 2 flamer squad Chimerias outflanking with the Russ. I think this is a well rounded list that could be dangerous against most opponents, yet still be a bit back from the cheeze. With a bit of tweeking you could make the Russ multi melta sponsons and anti armor turret with a Laz cannon as well in case you think you need some more anti armor.
jifel wrote: Played around with lists last night, realized at 1850 I can fit 5 Flyrants and a maxed out Subterranean Uprising. What do you guys think of the following as a competitive list?
Definitely NOT cheesy. You're playing Tyranids. If you want a competitive list. You run 4+ Flyrants. As soon as Flyrants get a 5++ or 5+ FNP stock, I might - and that's a 'might' - start considering it cheesy. There are way too many things in the game that don't care about a 3+ Armor, 4+ Jink, at best. (2+ Cover with Shrouding, but you generally have Ignores Cover or you don't).
Friendly games, eh, I guess I could see your side of the argument, but jifel generally makes more competitive lists than friendly.
That being said, I'm a fan of just going the Lictor Shame approach. What I mean by this is Lictorshame was good at MSU, contesting objectives, and denying enemy points with its "board presence" while maintaining threats in the air. MSUCAD Genestealer Cults does this A LOT better than Lictor ever could, and they are obsec.
IMO, the 2 dice for Ambush Cult isn't worth the lack of obsec. I'd rather have 1 dice and hope to get a 6 every once in a while. They are basically there to stay in reserve until Turn2 (earliest). Hope you get a 1-2 and then keep them off until Turn5 as long as possible with the Return to Shadows as much as you can. You play super passive with your Obsec GSC and you wait til late game. They can apply pressure when necessary or they can go for steals all game.
At 1850 you can fit 7 Flyrants and 8 Mucolids (IIRC). That means with 6 Flyrants you can squeeze in a 40pt Magus, and 6x5 MSU Acolytes. You have board control whenever you want it (Turn1-5) with Ambush/Infiltrate for Maelstrom. If you can play as passive as possible and hide/LOS the hybrids until late game for Eternal. 6 Flyrants is a lot. I would probably only go with 5 Flyrants as jifel originally intended.
I've only played 2 games with MSUGSC, and I'll admittedly say I played way too aggressive with them. I think MSU and LOS is the way you're going to win with GSC allies. If you don't roll a 6 - you might as well keep them out of danger and hope to get a 6 later in the game.
Even 5 flyrants sacrifices a lot of ground pressure. GSC may be the answer to that, but I still am not sure if they complement Tyranids super well. Both suffer against high AV
The 5 flyrants have the exact answer for high AV though. The basic troops have S4 rending that can "manage" with anything short of AV14. They also have access to S8 AP2 Armourbane too.
Spamming Flyrants is not the way to have an enjoyable game though. Ether your opponents take rock to your scissors or you stomp them into the dirt..... No fun ether way unless you are a sadist or a maccoist. I think with the great options that GSC gives us for mobile units thanks to Cult ambush we can decide to take the higher road and not spam our strongest unit.
2-3 Flyrants get the job done with minimal wineing.
The buffs to genestealers and the formation bonuses from cult insurrection and the first curse make them uber scary against nearly everything and super survivable.
Even without the cult indurrection bonuses having genestealers that can last in close combat past the first turn is just joyfull. I have 80 genestealers painted and based and 4 Broodlords/Patriarchs.... and Id consider running all 4 1st Curses in a game just for giggles.
That's 1215pts of genestealer swarm add 120 more pts to give 10 in each brood scything talons. that's 1335pts.
Leaving 515 pts for other stuff in an 1850 pt game.
Edit: and just for the record no I don't advocate taking spam of any unit (including The First Curse) I just mentioned it would be funny to actually see a Genestealer swarm that can actually do some damage.
Timeshadow wrote: Spamming Flyrants is not the way to have an enjoyable game though. Ether your opponents take rock to your scissors or you stomp them into the dirt..... No fun ether way unless you are a sadist or a maccoist. I think with the great options that GSC gives us for mobile units thanks to Cult ambush we can decide to take the higher road and not spam our strongest unit.
2-3 Flyrants get the job done with minimal wineing.
The buffs to genestealers and the formation bonuses from cult insurrection and the first curse make them uber scary against nearly everything and super survivable.
Even without the cult indurrection bonuses having genestealers that can last in close combat past the first turn is just joyfull. I have 80 genestealers painted and based and 4 Broodlords/Patriarchs.... and Id consider running all 4 1st Curses in a game just for giggles.
That's 1215pts of genestealer swarm add 120 more pts to give 10 in each brood scything talons. that's 1335pts.
Leaving 515 pts for other stuff in an 1850 pt game.
Edit: and just for the record no I don't advocate taking spam of any unit (including The First Curse) I just mentioned it would be funny to actually see a Genestealer swarm that can actually do some damage.
Add in Deathleaper, some lictors, some muciloids or rippers for troops and you would have nice fully hardhitting force.
Timeshadow wrote: Spamming Flyrants is not the way to have an enjoyable game though. Ether your opponents take rock to your scissors or you stomp them into the dirt..... No fun ether way unless you are a sadist or a maccoist. I think with the great options that GSC gives us for mobile units thanks to Cult ambush we can decide to take the higher road and not spam our strongest unit.
2-3 Flyrants get the job done with minimal wineing.
couldnt agree more. Anything higher than 2-3 Flyrants and sure some others will struggle to deal with it, but then you hit certain armies that have significant or natural AA capabilities and just counter you based on the investment of points you've wasted on Winged which basically become "Fast carnifexes that can't assault".
Whether or not GSC are the units to best compliment them is to be seen tho
I posted this over in Lists but I thought I'd post here as well. This is a GSC, w/Nids with no Flyrants..but I think it is a strong list...what do you think?
The Shadow falls: 1850
The first curse: +1 ML, Warlord Special rules: Cult father, Generation in the making, Numbers beyond counting 495 (Patriarch with 20 Stealers)
Timeshadow wrote: Spamming Flyrants is not the way to have an enjoyable game though. Ether your opponents take rock to your scissors or you stomp them into the dirt..... No fun ether way unless you are a sadist or a maccoist. I think with the great options that GSC gives us for mobile units thanks to Cult ambush we can decide to take the higher road and not spam our strongest unit.
2-3 Flyrants get the job done with minimal wineing.
couldnt agree more. Anything higher than 2-3 Flyrants and sure some others will struggle to deal with it, but then you hit certain armies that have significant or natural AA capabilities and just counter you based on the investment of points you've wasted on Winged which basically become "Fast carnifexes that can't assault".
Whether or not GSC are the units to best compliment them is to be seen tho
Actually I disagree with this sentiment. More Flyrants is always good as long as you have the ground presence to support them. I could certainly see 4, possibly even 5 flyrants being the most competitive tyranid allies for GSC since they do everything so well, and GSC compliment the weakness of the flyrants perfectly. While it's true that some armies have a decent amount of AA, there is no competitive list that will have enough AA to deal with more than 2 or 3 flyrants before those same flyrants can focus the AA down. (Maybe Tau but I don't think even they have enough in a good list that doesn't tailor extra AA).
The reason for this is simple - because flyrants are good against everything, you want to cram as many as you can into a list. You opponent doesn't typically want to bring too much AA because he might not run into ANY flyers, let alone 4 or 5, and if he doesn't, it's wasted points. So a flyrant-heavy army is what you might call an "anti-meta" army - an army that most armies struggle equally to deal with (kind of like a true horde army would be pretty anti-meta, causing a lot of top tier armies issues if a good horde list were to appear in competitive play)
Timeshadow wrote: Spamming Flyrants is not the way to have an enjoyable game though. Ether your opponents take rock to your scissors or you stomp them into the dirt..... No fun ether way unless you are a sadist or a maccoist. I think with the great options that GSC gives us for mobile units thanks to Cult ambush we can decide to take the higher road and not spam our strongest unit.
2-3 Flyrants get the job done with minimal wineing.
couldnt agree more. Anything higher than 2-3 Flyrants and sure some others will struggle to deal with it, but then you hit certain armies that have significant or natural AA capabilities and just counter you based on the investment of points you've wasted on Winged which basically become "Fast carnifexes that can't assault".
Whether or not GSC are the units to best compliment them is to be seen tho
Actually I disagree with this sentiment. More Flyrants is always good as long as you have the ground presence to support them. I could certainly see 4, possibly even 5 flyrants being the most competitive tyranid allies for GSC since they do everything so well, and GSC compliment the weakness of the flyrants perfectly. While it's true that some armies have a decent amount of AA, there is no competitive list that will have enough AA to deal with more than 2 or 3 flyrants before those same flyrants can focus the AA down. (Maybe Tau but I don't think even they have enough in a good list that doesn't tailor extra AA).
The reason for this is simple - because flyrants are good against everything, you want to cram as many as you can into a list. You opponent doesn't typically want to bring too much AA because he might not run into ANY flyers, let alone 4 or 5, and if he doesn't, it's wasted points. So a flyrant-heavy army is what you might call an "anti-meta" army - an army that most armies struggle equally to deal with (kind of like a true horde army would be pretty anti-meta, causing a lot of top tier armies issues if a good horde list were to appear in competitive play)
I agree if all you want to do is win then put as many Flyrants in your list as possible, BUT most people want to have a fun game with ups and downs where tactical decisions as well as luck have big effects on the outcome of the game. As you said most armies can't cope with 4-6 FMC so they will be slaughtered. The armies that can cope ether can ignore them or can shoot them down. Then you don't have fun. I like a nice balanced but competitive list.
No what I'm saying is that a competitive army typically won't have enough AA to deal with 4-5 flyrants, and if they do then they won't do well against other competitive armies because they'll have wasted too many points on AA that isn't useful against the majority of competitive lists.
But yeah you're right that that's a very cutthroat list and I would never bring anything like that to a casual game. It's very much a tournament list that isn't fun for someone to play against with a normal balanced list.
mobile tarpits and board control with the infantry with enough Synapse bubbles to support it, and a gakload of dice. Kicks ass if you get Master of Ambush. Plenty of rolls for Onslaught as well. Any feedback is fine, except for "add more Flyrants" or "add GSC".
Lansirill wrote: Is there a FAQ out there that actually lets the Malanthrope's Spore Cloud work?
What is there about it you don't think works?
Spore Cloud states that units within 6" of a Venomthrope gains stealth (shrouded? I'm on the can atm.) A Malanthrope is, well, not a Venomthrope. I'm rather confident that GW intends for the Malanthrope to give a 6" bubble like the Venomthrope (otherwise why give it the rule, and fluff wise a Malanthrope is a super Venomthrope,) but RAW it doesn't actually appear to do anything.
Although if someone tried to actually argue that, outside of in a "Look. GW derps the rules again." sense, they need to go to the time out corner.
mobile tarpits and board control with the infantry with enough Synapse bubbles to support it, and a gakload of dice. Kicks ass if you get Master of Ambush. Plenty of rolls for Onslaught as well. Any feedback is fine, except for "add more Flyrants" or "add GSC".
Looks pretty nice. I'd run it differant, but that is "style" I would swap in Mawloc or two, and spend the extra points on some more Troops/Synapse (likely one Brood of Warriors with a Cannon, and some Gaunts)
As it stands I'd be worried about Synapse hunting...you have 5 units that need it a fair bit, and three others (but they can keep up with the Fly'rants) so I'd want maybe one or two more, just to be safe..
mobile tarpits and board control with the infantry with enough Synapse bubbles to support it, and a gakload of dice. Kicks ass if you get Master of Ambush. Plenty of rolls for Onslaught as well. Any feedback is fine, except for "add more Flyrants" or "add GSC".
Why not termagants instead of hormagaunts? Not got my codex for reference but I'm pretty sure they're slightly cheaper and more useful for sitting on a backfield objective outside of Synapse (true, they may fall back, but hormagaunts will either run forwards - which is as bad - or eat themselves).
Well the Hormies can work to screen the big Bugs, with Malanthrope support. I tend to prefer Hormies to Termies because of the speed. And because they can fight on CC they can make a nice bullet magnet.
Lansirill wrote: Is there a FAQ out there that actually lets the Malanthrope's Spore Cloud work?
What is there about it you don't think works?
Spore Cloud states that units within 6" of a Venomthrope gains stealth (shrouded? I'm on the can atm.) A Malanthrope is, well, not a Venomthrope. I'm rather confident that GW intends for the Malanthrope to give a 6" bubble like the Venomthrope (otherwise why give it the rule, and fluff wise a Malanthrope is a super Venomthrope,) but RAW it doesn't actually appear to do anything.
Although if someone tried to actually argue that, outside of in a "Look. GW derps the rules again." sense, they need to go to the time out corner.
...wow, dunno how i've never even heard of this one...good catch. answer is no though, never even been brought up that i've heard.
mobile tarpits and board control with the infantry with enough Synapse bubbles to support it, and a gakload of dice. Kicks ass if you get Master of Ambush. Plenty of rolls for Onslaught as well. Any feedback is fine, except for "add more Flyrants" or "add GSC".
Looks pretty nice. I'd run it differant, but that is "style" I would swap in Mawloc or two, and spend the extra points on some more Troops/Synapse (likely one Brood of Warriors with a Cannon, and some Gaunts)
As it stands I'd be worried about Synapse hunting...you have 5 units that need it a fair bit, and three others (but they can keep up with the Fly'rants) so I'd want maybe one or two more, just to be safe..
thanks man! I actually meant to say, I don't like Mawlocs at all, they are great with Lictors and great stats on paper, but I'm sick of their unreliability in game, they are unmatched when they work, but I don't enjoy them as an inclusion. I can totally see their value, it's just a personal choice.
Synapse is a legitimate concern... but I think I might just run the gauntlet with that one. 2x Zoanthrope units with 2x 3++ W's makes them like effectively 4-6w units each, and then the Malanthrope is a third even tankier Synapse unit, then I can fall back on Flyrant's if things get dicey even though it might be awkward. If I was gonna take more Synapse, what would be the way to do it? Drop a squad of garg's to turn hormies into Warriors? Hmm I'll pay a bit more attention to it over the next few games, that's something that I can very easily adjust to feel.
The Shadow wrote: Why not termagants instead of hormagaunts? Not got my codex for reference but I'm pretty sure they're slightly cheaper and more useful for sitting on a backfield objective outside of Synapse (true, they may fall back, but hormagaunts will either run forwards - which is as bad - or eat themselves).
Because they are slightly slower, and as pinecone said the Hormies can screen the fexes much better because generally they won't bog them down ever in the run phase. Also, they are faster and get into combat to hold something in CC for my fexes quicker, or tarpit it, or just get to an objective slightly faster, as well as, dealing with a hostile tarpit blob much quicker because of their assault bonuses... also, the question would be what am I gonna do with 20 pts if I did take Termies? haha. But I don't think they are better anyway for this list. If Horms are sitting on an objective the self wounding stands a good chance of not being relevant i mean their not gonna kill emselves so its whatever
One thing I am kinda concerned about however is maybe it's lacking a little dedicated anti-infantry, was thinking about maybe Biovores for Pathfinders and the like hiding in cover or in the ruin, or maybe living artillery node to cover all bases in general. However, if I'm correct just regular infantry that is threatened by Biovores is pretty uncommon in the current meta, and blobs of +2 saves are usually invul right, meaning volume of dice from Dakkafexes would probably cover both bases much more efficiently, is my current thinking. I mean, when in range its 196x TL S6 shots, and in games where I get Master of Ambush thats all happening turn 1 :O
Speaking of MoA, I was thinking about condensing the 3x2 carnifex units into 2x3 so I can put a Malanthrope up the field with them so that they can have more positioning freedom thanks to guaranteed t1 freedom and a tankieness buff... not sure if the bigger squads and less control is a great idea though. Also it might be overkill, as those are generally the games that I win anyway.
I don't think they are manditory at all. But if you have IG sitting on a shelf, this lets you use them.
The GSC book mentions some Stealers being corrupted by Nurgle...maybe come the "End tymes(tm)" I can put Marks on Warriors, and Stealers? Stealers with Blight Grenades? Zoeys with Marks of Tzench?
pinecone77 wrote: I don't think they are manditory at all. But if you have IG sitting on a shelf, this lets you use them.
The GSC book mentions some Stealers being corrupted by Nurgle...maybe come the "End tymes(tm)" I can put Marks on Warriors, and Stealers? Stealers with Blight Grenades? Zoeys with Marks of Tzench?
"I cast Rubic of the Hive Mind"
Tyranids themselves can't be corrupted because the Hive Mind, but Genestealers away of the Hive Fleets don't have that protection.
mobile tarpits and board control with the infantry with enough Synapse bubbles to support it, and a gakload of dice. Kicks ass if you get Master of Ambush. Plenty of rolls for Onslaught as well. Any feedback is fine, except for "add more Flyrants" or "add GSC".
I run a very similar list. I run 2x20 hormagants and 2x10 termagants instead of 2x10 and 3x10 gargs, only 1x2 dakkafex, one walking tyrant with 3 guard, 1x3 Biovore, and Deathleaper assassin brood. Struggles vs super hard top tier lists, but anything that isn't likely to be seen at the top tables is going to probably get wrecked. The style of list is like somewhere along the edge of tier 2/1. Variations on it are what I've been running since 6th edition dropped. I've won and placed in a lot of 8/16 man tournaments, where you can get to round 3 without running into a GT list, but you'll generally always reach one in the final round, and that's when the music tends to stop.
Combined arms Tyranid armies' (Rather than flyrant spam or horde) biggest issue, in my experience, is that it lacks the force projection to really deal with Eldar/Tau armies that can bring tons of firepower and/or mobility. The 5th edition book had Ymgarls and Doom, which could be used to great effect in 6th edition, as well as biomancy Flyrants. In 6th, we just have a hard time getting there with enough in tact to pin them down and kill them. Getting first turn and Catalyst can make a huge difference, but in general, unless you're bringing 60+ gribblies, you're not likely to get enough across the board fast enough to hold stuff down. On top of that, outside of Flyrants and Mawlocs, it's hard to get something that can do damage while crossing the board, and not just be a sitting duck on arrival.
But, dakkafex are criminally underrated by most people. They can do some serious heavy lifting, and like you said, if you get master of ambush, they become seriously deadly, particularly with turn 1.
pinecone77 wrote: I don't think they are manditory at all. But if you have IG sitting on a shelf, this lets you use them.
The GSC book mentions some Stealers being corrupted by Nurgle...maybe come the "End tymes(tm)" I can put Marks on Warriors, and Stealers? Stealers with Blight Grenades? Zoeys with Marks of Tzench?
"I cast Rubic of the Hive Mind"
Tyranids themselves can't be corrupted because the Hive Mind, but Genestealers away of the Hive Fleets don't have that protection.
Nurgle....plus nids...... The only thing cooler would be genestealer orks haha
pinecone77 wrote: I don't think they are manditory at all. But if you have IG sitting on a shelf, this lets you use them.
The GSC book mentions some Stealers being corrupted by Nurgle...maybe come the "End tymes(tm)" I can put Marks on Warriors, and Stealers? Stealers with Blight Grenades? Zoeys with Marks of Tzench?
"I cast Rubic of the Hive Mind"
damn. i think screamers would make amazing units for nids
Hello tyranid players I come seeking advice. Several years ago I started building a Tau army. During that time I also always desired playing an assault oriented Tyranid army as zerg was always my favorite Starcraft army and they're just so different from tau. Recently I managed to pick up some tyranid models very inexpensively.
I was looking to try and build an army list with as few guns as possible, that spends the first turn or two running across the board getting shot before just overwhelming my opponents with hormagaunts and monsterous creatures in CC.
I am very aware that this isn't remotely close to a "competitive list". However many opponents in my area would likely struggle with one flyrant. Two would probably be extremely oppressive. If you're familiar with Tau, my last army featured 13 stealth suits, a squad of Vespid, 3 razorsharks, two squads of kroot and a coldstar commander and I only narrowly lost a game 12-11. So an almost gun free-list should do somewhat decently.
So with that in mind here are the units that I just recently bought.
Winged Hive Tyrant
Trygon
3 Carnifex
10 Gargoyles
6 Warriors
3 Tyrant Guard
Broodlord
16 Genestealers
12 Hormagaunts
I was thinking of picking up a couple more genestealers to run them in the first curse formation, along with another mawloc/trygon, and some venomthropes.
So how many hormagaunts are a reasonable amount to try and obtain for this army list? What's the best way to outfit them? Naked or with upgrades?
Is there an ok way to run a flying hive tyrant that focuses on CC? Would sticking him in a blob of Gargoyles be somewhat ok?
How good are raveners? Looks like they have a spiffy deepstrike formation.
Experience with swarmlord? He looks pretty beastly once he assaults people.
Zoanthropes seem cool too.
If I run a wrecker node. Should I just do three squads of 1 carnifex or should I keep my eyes open for more?
materpillar wrote: Hello tyranid players I come seeking advice. Several years ago I started building a Tau army. During that time I also always desired playing an assault oriented Tyranid army as zerg was always my favorite Starcraft army and they're just so different from tau. Recently I managed to pick up some tyranid models very inexpensively.
I was looking to try and build an army list with as few guns as possible, that spends the first turn or two running across the board getting shot before just overwhelming my opponents with hormagaunts and monsterous creatures in CC.
I am very aware that this isn't remotely close to a "competitive list". However many opponents in my area would likely struggle with one flyrant. Two would probably be extremely oppressive. If you're familiar with Tau, my last army featured 13 stealth suits, a squad of Vespid, 3 razorsharks, two squads of kroot and a coldstar commander and I only narrowly lost a game 12-11. So an almost gun free-list should do somewhat decently.
So with that in mind here are the units that I just recently bought.
Winged Hive Tyrant
Trygon
3 Carnifex
10 Gargoyles
6 Warriors
3 Tyrant Guard
Broodlord
16 Genestealers
12 Hormagaunts
I was thinking of picking up a couple more genestealers to run them in the first curse formation, along with another mawloc/trygon, and some venomthropes.
So how many hormagaunts are a reasonable amount to try and obtain for this army list? What's the best way to outfit them? Naked or with upgrades?
Is there an ok way to run a flying hive tyrant that focuses on CC? Would sticking him in a blob of Gargoyles be somewhat ok?
How good are raveners? Looks like they have a spiffy deepstrike formation.
Experience with swarmlord? He looks pretty beastly once he assaults people.
Zoanthropes seem cool too.
If I run a wrecker node. Should I just do three squads of 1 carnifex or should I keep my eyes open for more?
What's a good balance of little to big bugs?
First and most important you only have 2 synapse creatures currently (Flyrant and warriors) You will need more if you don't want your army crumbing after the first turn or two.
I would suggest some Zoanthropes for sure as they are both synapse and good warp charge batteries.
The next suggestion is at least one Malanthrope to both give a shrouded bubble and as more synapse.
Swarmlord is a beast in close combat but he needs to get there and that's the problem. He also needs 150pts of tyrant guard if you want him to survive long enough to get to combat as well as his already high cost. In a swarm he might be useful but honestly I have never used him except in very casual fluffy games.
Edit: Oh and there is a great melee flyrant formation that adds him to 2 broods of gargoyles and makes them all one unit.
materpillar wrote: Hello tyranid players I come seeking advice. Several years ago I started building a Tau army. During that time I also always desired playing an assault oriented Tyranid army as zerg was always my favorite Starcraft army and they're just so different from tau. Recently I managed to pick up some tyranid models very inexpensively.
I was looking to try and build an army list with as few guns as possible, that spends the first turn or two running across the board getting shot before just overwhelming my opponents with hormagaunts and monsterous creatures in CC.
I am very aware that this isn't remotely close to a "competitive list". However many opponents in my area would likely struggle with one flyrant. Two would probably be extremely oppressive. If you're familiar with Tau, my last army featured 13 stealth suits, a squad of Vespid, 3 razorsharks, two squads of kroot and a coldstar commander and I only narrowly lost a game 12-11. So an almost gun free-list should do somewhat decently.
So with that in mind here are the units that I just recently bought. Winged Hive Tyrant Trygon 3 Carnifex 10 Gargoyles 6 Warriors 3 Tyrant Guard Broodlord 16 Genestealers 12 Hormagaunts
I was thinking of picking up a couple more genestealers to run them in the first curse formation, along with another mawloc/trygon, and some venomthropes.
So how many hormagaunts are a reasonable amount to try and obtain for this army list? What's the best way to outfit them? Naked or with upgrades? Is there an ok way to run a flying hive tyrant that focuses on CC? Would sticking him in a blob of Gargoyles be somewhat ok? How good are raveners? Looks like they have a spiffy deepstrike formation. Experience with swarmlord? He looks pretty beastly once he assaults people. Zoanthropes seem cool too. If I run a wrecker node. Should I just do three squads of 1 carnifex or should I keep my eyes open for more?
What's a good balance of little to big bugs?
Well shoot, no fast and easy answers...I'd say you likely want a bunch more Hormies say 30x or so.
Nids, IMO work best in teams..so I'd look to build two or three teams around your Carnifexen...
So "Bug Star" Carnifex, Hormies x10, Zoanthrope, Venothrope...the Hormagaunts "screen" giving a cover save to the Big Bugs, Veno Shrouds so the all get a solid save, Hormies are lightning fast...Run till you get into charge range..
You can get some Warriors to build one as well.
So, CAD
Winged Tyrant Swarm lord?
Elites, one Zoey, two Venos
Heavy: Two Broods of Fexen (1 to 3 in each) (Maybe 2x in each? or x2, x1?)
Troops: two bug Broods of Hormies say 15+, Warrior Brood x3 vanilla for extra Synapse...
add in your Stealers with a Brood lord..use Out Flank?
add spice to taste..if you get a charge off you can trash most anything.
Other medium useful units is a Tervigon: Thorax hive: Electro grubs, and x30 Termagants to make it a Troop...Hive Commander lets you Outflank the Tervagon
Now that everybody has had a chance to dig into the 'stealer cult, how do people think it is going work as an ally to Tyranids?
I was able to fit the First Curse formation into a 5-flyrant build at 1850. It ended up with a weird amount of points left over (around 110), not enough for a Crone/Mawloc, but too many to burn off in Mucolids, so I ended up adding a bunch of gargoyles to it. I'll be running it at a local event on the 20th. I'm heavily limited by models for this build: I don't own any Malenthropes, otherwise I'd suck up spare points with them, and I won't have time to do much painting, so I went with the First Curse because all I need to do for it is build and paint the Patriarch.
I've been playing with GC options for the 6-flyrant builds. Right now I'm inclined to use Subterranean Uprising. The core 6-flyrant build runs 1620 points (6x flying hive tyrant, egrubs, devourers, 2x venomthrope, 6x mucolid), leaving 230 to play with. With limited ability to take lots of cult units I want to maximize use of them, particularly value out of the Cult Ambush chart, thus the Subterranean Uprising to get the extra rolls. I have not settled on a build yet, and I'll probably experiment with a lot of variants as I get models built.
I feel like there should be some way to combo GC summoning with Tervigon's and Endless swarm to get absurd amounts of models on the table. The GC would be up front and the 'nid's would be camping on objectives with objective secured. It would be fun to play, not involve flyrants, and rather fluffy, but I have yet to find a way to make it work that I like.
babelfish wrote: Now that everybody has had a chance to dig into the 'stealer cult, how do people think it is going work as an ally to Tyranids?
I was able to fit the First Curse formation into a 5-flyrant build at 1850. It ended up with a weird amount of points left over (around 110), not enough for a Crone/Mawloc, but too many to burn off in Mucolids, so I ended up adding a bunch of gargoyles to it. I'll be running it at a local event on the 20th. I'm heavily limited by models for this build: I don't own any Malenthropes, otherwise I'd suck up spare points with them, and I won't have time to do much painting, so I went with the First Curse because all I need to do for it is build and paint the Patriarch.
I've been playing with GC options for the 6-flyrant builds. Right now I'm inclined to use Subterranean Uprising. The core 6-flyrant build runs 1620 points (6x flying hive tyrant, egrubs, devourers, 2x venomthrope, 6x mucolid), leaving 230 to play with. With limited ability to take lots of cult units I want to maximize use of them, particularly value out of the Cult Ambush chart, thus the Subterranean Uprising to get the extra rolls. I have not settled on a build yet, and I'll probably experiment with a lot of variants as I get models built.
I feel like there should be some way to combo GC summoning with Tervigon's and Endless swarm to get absurd amounts of models on the table. The GC would be up front and the 'nid's would be camping on objectives with objective secured. It would be fun to play, not involve flyrants, and rather fluffy, but I have yet to find a way to make it work that I like.
Thoughts?
I know you said you're limited by models atm but as soon as you change build up and paint a Malanthrope, do it! As long as Forgeworld isn't a limitation in your meta, Malanthropes will always trump 2 Venomthropes. S8 is everywhere for doubling out Venoms where as S10 ignores cover is very limited. As an added bonus, it's cheaper!
As to my thoughts on Nids and friends. I'm liking 5 Flyrants and a single CAD of GSC. Having a single Magus with all the goodies in a large blob of Neophytes. Rolling aggressively on GSC's table for summoning. Spamming WC2 summons to avoid perils as much as possible, then swapping to WC3 later in the game. 10 WCs from Nids cast as many Catalysts as necessary and then throw the remainder at the Magus.
Wow, I can't believe it, I've been out of the loop for 2 years and this thread is still going strong!
Since I've been gone for so long, does anyone want to summarize some of the changes? Unfortunately, my googlefu is weak today.
Last I recall, Tyranids were getting the Mucolids, Tyrranocytes, Sporocytes and etc......so I left the "scene" after formations were becoming a regular occurance.
More recently, I'm reading things about the Genestealer cult release which are exciting to me, but makes me sad that the ever so fearsome (4th edition) Codex: Tyranids Genestealers have not gotten any love....
I will say, what my googlefu and past experience does show me, is that pretty much any lists that are considered to be equally competitive to ANY other factions rely HEAVILY on the one, the only the Flyrant. The last game I played in, I used this list (and I think I'm dating myself by just seeing the formatting):
Spoiler:
Primary CAD Dakkaflyrant - E. Grubs
Dakkaflyrant - E. Grubs
Malanthrope
3 Deep striking rippers
3 Deep striking rippers
3 Deep striking rippers
3 Deep striking rippers
23 Gargoyles
Mawlock
Mawlock
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E. Grubs
Secondary CAD Dakkaflyrant - E. Grubs
Venomthrope
3 deep striking rippers
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E. Grubs
Total = 1848
TL;DR
I've been gone for 2 years, want to learn about what has come about since then that has changed the way my true love (Tyranids) play. Can you point me anywhere that is "updated" on new rulings/FAQs/erratas?
Finally, (feel free to skip this one) when's the next edition going to be released? Do I re-familiarize myself with current edition rules only to have them changed on me in the near future or do I wait?
roxor08 wrote: Wow, I can't believe it, I've been out of the loop for 2 years and this thread is still going strong!
Since I've been gone for so long, does anyone want to summarize some of the changes? Unfortunately, my googlefu is weak today.
Last I recall, Tyranids were getting the Mucolids, Tyrranocytes, Sporocytes and etc......so I left the "scene" after formations were becoming a regular occurance.
More recently, I'm reading things about the Genestealer cult release which are exciting to me, but makes me sad that the ever so fearsome (4th edition) Codex: Tyranids Genestealers have not gotten any love....
I will say, what my googlefu and past experience does show me, is that pretty much any lists that are considered to be equally competitive to ANY other factions rely HEAVILY on the one, the only the Flyrant. The last game I played in, I used this list (and I think I'm dating myself by just seeing the formatting):
Spoiler:
Primary CAD Dakkaflyrant - E. Grubs
Dakkaflyrant - E. Grubs
Malanthrope
3 Deep striking rippers
3 Deep striking rippers
3 Deep striking rippers
3 Deep striking rippers
23 Gargoyles
Mawlock
Mawlock
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E. Grubs
Secondary CAD Dakkaflyrant - E. Grubs
Venomthrope
3 deep striking rippers
Tyrannofex - Adrenal Glands, E. Grubs
Total = 1848
TL;DR
I've been gone for 2 years, want to learn about what has come about since then that has changed the way my true love (Tyranids) play. Can you point me anywhere that is "updated" on new rulings/FAQs/erratas?
Finally, (feel free to skip this one) when's the next edition going to be released? Do I re-familiarize myself with current edition rules only to have them changed on me in the near future or do I wait?
Nice list! But these days it is all Fly'rant all the time.. I don;t like it much, but massive fire power is a "thing" including lots of "D". So "normal" Big Bugs just be blasted into pulp.
If you can, take a look at GSC. If for no other reason they can be allies with Nids! Welcome back, the Hive Mind welcomes all!
I know you said you're limited by models atm but as soon as you change build up and paint a Malanthrope, do it! As long as Forgeworld isn't a limitation in your meta, Malanthropes will always trump 2 Venomthropes. S8 is everywhere for doubling out Venoms where as S10 ignores cover is very limited. As an added bonus, it's cheaper!
I've proxied the Malanthrope before, and I agree that it is in general far better than 2 Venomthropes, but in mass (5+) Flyrant builds I prefer running two Venomthropes instead of a single Malanthrope. I find that the first turn flexibility of two cover bubbles is more important than the turn 2+ advantages of the Malanthrope. Yeah, every so often I roll a one vs a melta and lose a venomthrope to the first shot fired, but in general anyone who has enough ignores cover to kill a Venomthrope and threaten a Flyrant has enough ignores cover to kill a Malanthrope and threaten a Flyrant.
Two Malanthropes would obviously better than either other option, but two Malanthropes start cutting into points I would rather be putting in Tyrants.
[quoteSaythings 572843 8996765 null] As to my thoughts on Nids and friends. I'm liking 5 Flyrants and a single CAD of GSC. Having a single Magus with all the goodies in a large blob of Neophytes. Rolling aggressively on GSC's table for summoning. Spamming WC2 summons to avoid perils as much as possible, then swapping to WC3 later in the game. 10 WCs from Nids cast as many Catalysts as necessary and then throw the remainder at the Magus.
Even with the artifact, that Magus only gets 3 rolls for spells, which is what, 60% to get summoning? I'd want to be in the 90% range if I was going to rely on the spell. I like Neophytes as extra Magus wounds, what about running a smaller unit of them, using the rest of the CAD for Acolyte MSU?
Automatically Appended Next Post:
roxor08 wrote: Wow, I can't believe it, I've been out of the loop for 2 years and this thread is still going strong!
Since I've been gone for so long, does anyone want to summarize some of the changes? Unfortunately, my googlefu is weak today.
Last I recall, Tyranids were getting the Mucolids, Tyrranocytes, Sporocytes and etc......so I left the "scene" after formations were becoming a regular occurance.
More recently, I'm reading things about the Genestealer cult release which are exciting to me, but makes me sad that the ever so fearsome (4th edition) Codex: Tyranids Genestealers have not gotten any love....
I will say, what my googlefu and past experience does show me, is that pretty much any lists that are considered to be equally competitive to ANY other factions rely HEAVILY on the one, the only the Flyrant. The last game I played in, I used this list (and I think I'm dating myself by just seeing the formatting):
TL;DR
I've been gone for 2 years, want to learn about what has come about since then that has changed the way my true love (Tyranids) play. Can you point me anywhere that is "updated" on new rulings/FAQs/erratas?
Finally, (feel free to skip this one) when's the next edition going to be released? Do I re-familiarize myself with current edition rules only to have them changed on me in the near future or do I wait?
First, no solid news on the new edition, but the rumor mill has started to spin up on it. Sometime next year maybe?
Second, non-casual Tyranids are Codex:Flyrant now. Depending on event rules and points you can shove absurd amounts of flying Hive Tyrants into a build. The new stuff we got was interesting, but not much of it stands up to the sillyness that everybody else can bring right now. Some people have had success with the Endless Swarm formation, which lets you bring back certain dead units to get lots and lots of small bugs all over the place, but it is an uphill battle even before factoring in trying to finish a game with 90+ models before the clock runs out.
They typical competitive 'nid list uses the HIve Fleet formation (which lets you take 3 HQ if you take at least 3 Troops), Mucolids (which you can take as 1 model squads to get 15 point troop units), and Venomthropes (which help keep your Flyrants alive until they get into the air if you go second) in order to run at least 5 flyrants. The 5 flyrant version is about 1,400 points, the 6 flyrant version around 1600. You can run 7 for less than 1850, if your willing to give up a venomthrope, by doing 2 CAD's and the Hive Fleet formation, and 8 at 2000, if you give up the venomthropes and half of your electroshock grubs.
Most people run 5-6 flyrants and add various units to fill in gaps. Mawlocs are common. I've seen devourer equiped 'gants in a Tyranocyte (drop pod) which can do a lot of infantry killing. I personally run 6 flyrants with two small genestealer units, mostly because there is a White Scars build in my area that I really struggle with unless I use the genestealers to infiltration to block his scout moves.
Tactics are simple: pick the unit you like the least, throw flyrants at it until it goes away, repeat. Most armies struggle to deal with flyrants, but the build struggles with scoring, particular in the ITC style missions which emphasize controlling objectives during the game. It also has a few bad matchups, but not many. A skilled flyrant player can get onto the top tables at a major event, but it is really hard to win it.
Genestealer cult looks like it will strengthen flyrant builds, but it is so early that nobody is sure what the best options are.
Just to float the idea out there while on the subject of Genestealer Cults, but has anyone considered Drop Pod 'nids in conjunction with our new allies? One of the biggest problems Drop Pod 'nids has had based on what I have read elsewhere (don't have enough pods to play such a list myself) is the lack of a solid force to bunker up on Turn 1 without having the army split between aggressive deepstriking forces and backfield forces. The Genestealer Cults offer a way to handle the first turn garrison that can then fade away Turn 2 and rejoin the main force Turn 3, putting the entire army on the enemy's side of the table. Alternatively, the cult can offer first turn pressure to protect the deep striking units. Depending on the build and rolls on the Cult Ambush table, it might be possible to have a large chunk of the enemy already tied up before the pods arrive and after that it is just clean up work. Even melee Warriors dropped in via Tyrannocyte might live to see combat if the enemy has to deal with multiple squads of deranged hybrids on their doorstep...
Actually part of my list for the upcoming TSHFT if I can attend. Return of the cupcakes!
Although now they are tyrannocytes.
I think a mix of cult and drop in nids can be a lot of pressure in an opponents face. Don't use the subterranean swarm, and bring a whole whack of spores and you can potentially do a tyranid null deploy without the chance of giving up first blood.
I've kinda been out of the loop and haven't played a game of 40K in months. However, I have a 2500 tournament this Sat which I am going to (and without any preparation/practice against the recent slew of competitive lists).
I plan to bring a flyrant-spam list, though I haven't decided exactly on the composition.
My friend and fellow teammate, iNcontrol, is bringing Tyranids + genestealer cults. From what I've heard, the GSC are pretty damn good and synergizes very well with the main army.
In any case, there's going to be 2 very good bug players at the tournament and I hope one of us can take it.
I'll write up a summary of the tourney here after the event is done. Wish me luck!
jy2 wrote: I've kinda been out of the loop and haven't played a game of 40K in months. However, I have a 2500 tournament this Sat which I am going to (and without any preparation/practice against the recent slew of competitive lists).
I plan to bring a flyrant-spam list, though I haven't decided exactly on the composition.
My friend and fellow teammate, iNcontrol, is bringing Tyranids + genestealer cults. From what I've heard, the GSC are pretty damn good and synergizes very well with the main army.
In any case, there's going to be 2 very good bug players at the tournament and I hope one of us can take it.
I'll write up a summary of the tourney here after the event is done. Wish me luck!
GSC have a massive ground control. They may be incredibly fragile, but their ability to redeploy to anywhere on the map means that it is very easy to control most of the objectives, which makes them a good support to the Flyrants.
Plus the occasional charge from reserves is nice.
jy2 wrote: I've kinda been out of the loop and haven't played a game of 40K in months. However, I have a 2500 tournament this Sat which I am going to (and without any preparation/practice against the recent slew of competitive lists).
I plan to bring a flyrant-spam list, though I haven't decided exactly on the composition.
My friend and fellow teammate, iNcontrol, is bringing Tyranids + genestealer cults. From what I've heard, the GSC are pretty damn good and synergizes very well with the main army.
In any case, there's going to be 2 very good bug players at the tournament and I hope one of us can take it.
I'll write up a summary of the tourney here after the event is done. Wish me luck!
GSC have a massive ground control. They may be incredibly fragile, but their ability to redeploy to anywhere on the map means that it is very easy to control most of the objectives, which makes them a good support to the Flyrants.
Plus the occasional charge from reserves is nice.
In such a case, when playing against GSC, you need to place the objectives as close together as possible to diminish the ground control advantage. This way, so no matter which objective they "re-appear" at, the GSC units are still threatened.
Conversely, as the GSC player, you will want to spread the objectives apart to take advantage of their "mobility".
jy2 wrote: I've kinda been out of the loop and haven't played a game of 40K in months. However, I have a 2500 tournament this Sat which I am going to (and without any preparation/practice against the recent slew of competitive lists).
I plan to bring a flyrant-spam list, though I haven't decided exactly on the composition.
My friend and fellow teammate, iNcontrol, is bringing Tyranids + genestealer cults. From what I've heard, the GSC are pretty damn good and synergizes very well with the main army.
In any case, there's going to be 2 very good bug players at the tournament and I hope one of us can take it.
I'll write up a summary of the tourney here after the event is done. Wish me luck!
I'm actually hoping I get matched up against iNcontrol's army (but not for the 1st round, more like for a final round matchup). That will give me a lot of useful data for how the GSC works, which I can then share with this thread.
jy2 wrote: I've kinda been out of the loop and haven't played a game of 40K in months. However, I have a 2500 tournament this Sat which I am going to (and without any preparation/practice against the recent slew of competitive lists).
I plan to bring a flyrant-spam list, though I haven't decided exactly on the composition.
My friend and fellow teammate, iNcontrol, is bringing Tyranids + genestealer cults. From what I've heard, the GSC are pretty damn good and synergizes very well with the main army.
In any case, there's going to be 2 very good bug players at the tournament and I hope one of us can take it.
I'll write up a summary of the tourney here after the event is done. Wish me luck!
GSC have a massive ground control. They may be incredibly fragile, but their ability to redeploy to anywhere on the map means that it is very easy to control most of the objectives, which makes them a good support to the Flyrants.
Plus the occasional charge from reserves is nice.
In such a case, when playing against GSC, you need to place the objectives as close together as possible to diminish the ground control advantage. This way, so no matter which objective they "re-appear" at, the GSC units are still threatened.
Conversely, as the GSC player, you will want to spread the objectives apart to take advantage of their "mobility".
I agree with this and suggest at least one objective close to your board edge as well. My ideal GSC objective placement would be one objective in each of my corners, 6-10 inches from the back and side edges. With that objective placement it is almost impossible for a returning unit not to be able to claim/contest those objectives. If I am placing more than two objectives I'm going to try to put them about midway down the table and close to the side of the table, opposite any objective the other player has placed. My goal is going to be to maximize the chances of any given unit being able to come back onto the board on an objective and to force the other player to spread out as much possible or just give up on certain objectives.
Full disclosure, this is all theory hammer: my GSC right now consists of about 30 'stealers, an unprimed Magus, an unprimed Primus, and a half complete Patriarch.
GSC are wonderful at board control even without the subterranean uprising giving you 2 dice. For 60 points you have 10 neophytes with an autocannon that can jump around to wherever you need them and still reach out and do a bit of damage to nearly anything. Put them in a CAD and they are objective secured. The other 9 are all ether las rifles that can punish anyone thinking they are easy to kill or shift. If you have the points you could add 2 flamers but I say keep them cheap. 5 of these would cost 300 pts and be really effective in a CAD with a pair of Magus fishing for Summoning. Just 430pts
Just a quick preview, but I did not end up playing against iNcontrol. I played against Wulfen Space Wolves, Space Marines + Eldar alpha-strike army with grav & scatbikes, and a super-shooty Eldar army with scatbikes and lots of D.
Well, the good news is that Tyranids won the event and there were only 2 Tyranid players (me and iNcontrol). I ran the more traditional Tyranid list whereas Geoff ran Tyranids + GSC. So which one of us won?
I'll get to that later today (or maybe tomorrow) when I have more time to write up my summary.
jy2 wrote: Just a quick preview, but I did not end up playing against iNcontrol. I played against Wulfen Space Wolves, Space Marines + Eldar alpha-strike army with grav & scatbikes, and a super-shooty Eldar army with scatbikes and lots of D.
Well, the good news is that Tyranids won the event and there were only 2 Tyranid players (me and iNcontrol). I ran the more traditional Tyranid list whereas Geoff ran Tyranids + GSC. So which one of us won?
I'll get to that later today (or maybe tomorrow) when I have more time to write up my summary.
jy2 wrote: Just a quick preview, but I did not end up playing against iNcontrol. I played against Wulfen Space Wolves, Space Marines + Eldar alpha-strike army with grav & scatbikes, and a super-shooty Eldar army with scatbikes and lots of D.
Well, the good news is that Tyranids won the event and there were only 2 Tyranid players (me and iNcontrol). I ran the more traditional Tyranid list whereas Geoff ran Tyranids + GSC. So which one of us won?
I'll get to that later today (or maybe tomorrow) when I have more time to write up my summary.
Well done. Tyranids winning events is always awesome. I'm looking forward to the write up.
Geoff (iNcontrol) brought mainly GSC and a small detachment of Tyranids, including 2 flyrants, 2x mucolids and 1 mawloc (1850 of GSC and 650 of Tyranids).
Round #1 vs Space Wolves
I played against a SW list running the Company of the Great Wolf, Heralds of the Great Wolf and the Wulfen Murderpack detachments. His list consisted of:
Wolf Guard Battle Leader - 2+/3++, Wolf Claw, TWC, 2x Fenrisian Wolves
Wolf Guard Battle Leader - 3++, Power Fist, TWC, 2x Fenrisian Wolves
2x Iron Priests on TWC's
Dreadnought in a Lucius Pattern Drop Pod
2x Drop Pods
4x TWC - 3++, 1x Power Fist, 1x Wolf Claw
3x1 Quad Mortar Batteries
Iron Priest - TWC Rune Priest - 2+, ML2, Bike
Wolf Priest - 2+, Bike
4x5 Wulfen - 2x Frost Claws, 2x TH/SS
I went 2nd. He couldn't do anything to my flyrants once they took to the air. However, I couldn't do anything to his ground units with regards to the Maelstrom Secondary Objectives. It was basically a game of me getting Kill Points and him grabbing Maelstrom objectives. I took KP's. He took Maelstrom. I also get all 3 bonus points for a 7-4 Tyranid victory.
Round #2 vs Eldar
My Eldar opponent ran a super-shooty and super-nasty Eldar list, consisting of lots of S6 shooting and D-weaponry:
This was one scary Eldar list, with tons of shooting and a lot of Strength D guns. I really needed to go first in order to have a chance here. Fortunately for me, I won the the initiative and opted to go 1st. So I deploy all my flyrants very aggressively in anticipation of my alpha-strike (and out in the open). My opponent then seizes the initiative on me! Doh!!!
So here I am with all of my flyrants exposed and my initiative seized. He starts off with 1 unit of jetbikes shooting and his initial volley....needing 6's to take down my void shields....manages to take down all 3 shields! Oh, sh*t!
It was a hard-fought game and in the end, I only had 2 flyrants and 3 mawlocs remaining. My opponent, however, only had Eldrad and his Skatach WK left. I'm still not sure how I did it, but despite his devastating alpha-strike, I was able to come away with a 9-2 Tyranid victory. After the 1st turn fiasco, when my flyrants were finally able to take off into the air, he just couldn't bring them down. I believe I actually lost 2 of my flyrants to my own Perils (and subsequent failed grounding). I also got a little lucky on the Maelstrom objectives here, getting numerous "kill-a-unit" Maelstrom objectives. I then picked apart his jetbike troops as the priority targets and only when they were gone did I go after his skimmer tanks.
Round #3 vs Eldar + Space Marines
I don't have my opponent's list, but he ran something like this:
Lias Issadon
2x5 Command squads w/4x meltas each in 2x Drop Pods
2 units of sniper scouts
3x Drop Pods
2x3 Grav Centurions
3x Stalkers (w/Skyfire)
Culexus
Autarch
20+ Scatterbikes
5x Dark Reapers
Bunker
It was an alpha-strike heavy list. I really needed to go 1st this game, but for the 3rd game in a row, I went 2nd.
I decided to take a gamble. The prudent thing to do was to reserve my flyrants. However, I decided to deploy almost my entire army (with the exception of 2 mawlocs). I was gambling that my VSG would protect me from his alpha-strike and that my beta-strike counter-attack would cripple his army. So I bubble-wrap my VSG as best as I could.
Unfortunately, it wasn't good enough. My opponent found an opening right next to the board edge. His Command squad w/meltas then landed directly on target and they proceeded to blow up my VSG. From there, it only went downhill. I must have failed about 75% of all my saves (both the 3+'s and the 4+ cover saves). It was just plain stupid. He would do things like wound with 3 hurricane bolter shots (wounding on 6's!) and then I would fail all 3 3+ saves! Unlike my previous opponent, my current opponent's alpha-strike crippled my army and from there, I just couldn't recover. Nothing went right in this game. I couldn't make a save if my life depended on it and my mawlocs couldn't hit the broad side of a barn. I was basically tabled by Turn 4.
Overall, I ended the tournament 2-1. I ended up a little better than the middle-of-the-pack. Geoff ended up going 3-0, getting 31 out of a possible 32 max points with his Genestealer Cult army. He beat Paul McKelvey's Tau (the ITC Best Tau player the last 2 years in a row) in the final round for the tournament win and has not lost a single game yet ever since he started playing his GSC army about 2 weeks ago (he is currently 8-0 overall with his GSC). Congrats to Geoff for job very well done.
You may want to divide those squads. GSC benefit a lot from MSU, as it makes getting a good roll on the CA table far more likely.
Plus they are incredibly fragile, so it is east to force an enemy to overkill, specially as if one model survives, it could potentially get back D6 models back from reinforcements.
Tyran wrote: You may want to divide those squads. GSC benefit a lot from MSU, as it makes getting a good roll on the CA table far more likely.
Plus they are incredibly fragile, so it is east to force an enemy to overkill, specially as if one model survives, it could potentially get back D6 models back from reinforcements.
Good idea! I'll rework my list, though I may have to add another formation to fill up those points.
Tyran wrote: You may want to divide those squads. GSC benefit a lot from MSU, as it makes getting a good roll on the CA table far more likely.
Plus they are incredibly fragile, so it is east to force an enemy to overkill, specially as if one model survives, it could potentially get back D6 models back from reinforcements.
Good idea! I'll rework my list, though I may have to add another formation to fill up those points.
Also just a note. You can't have 2 sysmic cannons and an auto cannon in one squad. I would also suggest making them minimal rather than maxed like you have and then try to get summoning to get all that bling.
I'd suggest 10 neophytes with just an auto cannon it's 60 pts and can reach out and touch someone with the ac wile being able to shadows port to objectives.
Couple problems with that list. The weapon configuration on those Neophytes is illegal, you can't take both a heavy weapon and heavy mining weapons in the same squad (the unit may do ONE of the following:). Also the Icon of the Cult Ascendant is Iconward only, the Primus can't take it.
Edit: Timeshadow beat me to it in regards to the weaponry configuration. The Icon of the Cult Ascendant still needs to be moved to one of the Iconwards though.
Lords of the Cult
Patarach ML2 2x familiar
Magus ML2 Crouchling, 2x Familiar
In exchange for some of your upgrades and the squad of Aberrants I got you a Magus 2 more Acolytes squads and Icons across the board giving WS 5 to everyone who wants to be in CC.
I would fish for summoning with the Magus in the GSC psychic powers cause it's a game breaker to summon units who arrive in cult ambush fully kitted out.
Go Biomancy (looking for Iron arm or end or warp speed) for the Patarach unless you want to try for Invis in Telepathy (it's more powerful but unfun).
Ok conversation time: Have the whips actually been that useful for anyone? I've finally gotten my list up and running and have 6 test games under my belt. Like everyone else, I am loving a subterranean uprising with Metamorphs, but I am personally feeling that the claws are just straight up the best way to go. I'm running my list with Flyrant support and so far have been able to just shoot out high I units or drop them with the Brood mind primaris (Bringing a Crouchling Magus and Patriarch, usually telepathy and broodmind) and have managed to cripple WS/I enough that I havent had any problems at all. Black Knight bikers in range? Dropped them to WS/I 3 and hit them with 5 metamorphs, wiped them for no casualties. Also put an all Claw unit into a WK, dropped to I4 and killed it before stomps could hit. I lost a few to WK swings of course, but the S6 + might from beyond + Furious Charge from Iconward made me S8, which helped finish the big guy off as rends alone didnt kill him. It just seems to me that the increase in S is huge compared to I in almost all scenarios, and that the whips are just occasionally useful. Because really, if I have two whip guys in a squad are they really going to do enough damage to save the rest against a faster I unit? There aren't really that many units I feel the whips would help against. Maybe harlequins? Against most armies though I dont mind if a Tac squad kills one guy while I slaughter them, as so far I've usually been able to pull off multi assaults and use psychic debuffs to cripple them, while my firepower has whittled down the hard CC units.
EDIT: Actually I'm just going to put this in the GSC thread...
I played against a custom chapter of space marines playing Emperor's Will. The game was a real nail-biter as it ended up going to turn 7. If it had ended on turn 5 I would have lost. If it had ended up on turn 6 I would have won. At the end of turn 7 the score was a 5-5 tie. I actually almost tabled him, he only had a single command squad marine left while I had a squad of warriors, a genestealer, most of my termagaunts and two very wounded carnifexes.
Anyway, the thing that I was wondering about was that he had a command squad full of several force weapons, some lightning claws and a powerfist. That unit single-handedly chewed through my warlord, trygon, carnifex and several hive guard. Admittedly, this was somewhat my fault in bad positioning and only slowly dripping units into him one at a time, but I was wondering if there was any way to deal with this kind of deathball thing (or heaven forbid thunderhammers) while staying strictly non-gun? Just tarpit it while sending my monstrous creatures elsewhere?
materpillar wrote: So I just played my first game with my bugs. It was super fun! I ran the following list... (prepare yourself for hilariously its unoptimized-ness)
1504 point Tyranids
Hive Tyrant - Wings, old adversary, regeneration, Scything Talons x2
I played against a custom chapter of space marines playing Emperor's Will. The game was a real nail-biter as it ended up going to turn 7. If it had ended on turn 5 I would have lost. If it had ended up on turn 6 I would have won. At the end of turn 7 the score was a 5-5 tie. I actually almost tabled him, he only had a single command squad marine left while I had a squad of warriors, a genestealer, most of my termagaunts and two very wounded carnifexes.
Anyway, the thing that I was wondering about was that he had a command squad full of several force weapons, some lightning claws and a powerfist. That unit single-handedly chewed through my warlord, trygon, carnifex and several hive guard. Admittedly, this was somewhat my fault in bad positioning and only slowly dripping units into him one at a time, but I was wondering if there was any way to deal with this kind of deathball thing (or heaven forbid thunderhammers) while staying strictly non-gun? Just tarpit it while sending my monstrous creatures elsewhere?
Well...try hitting him with x30 Broods of Hormagaunts. Buckets of dice can do wonders vs Uber units... And it can take all week to kill that many gribblies.
jifel wrote: Ok conversation time: Have the whips actually been that useful for anyone? I've finally gotten my list up and running and have 6 test games under my belt. Like everyone else, I am loving a subterranean uprising with Metamorphs, but I am personally feeling that the claws are just straight up the best way to go. I'm running my list with Flyrant support and so far have been able to just shoot out high I units or drop them with the Brood mind primaris (Bringing a Crouchling Magus and Patriarch, usually telepathy and broodmind) and have managed to cripple WS/I enough that I havent had any problems at all. Black Knight bikers in range? Dropped them to WS/I 3 and hit them with 5 metamorphs, wiped them for no casualties. Also put an all Claw unit into a WK, dropped to I4 and killed it before stomps could hit. I lost a few to WK swings of course, but the S6 + might from beyond + Furious Charge from Iconward made me S8, which helped finish the big guy off as rends alone didnt kill him. It just seems to me that the increase in S is huge compared to I in almost all scenarios, and that the whips are just occasionally useful. Because really, if I have two whip guys in a squad are they really going to do enough damage to save the rest against a faster I unit? There aren't really that many units I feel the whips would help against. Maybe harlequins? Against most armies though I dont mind if a Tac squad kills one guy while I slaughter them, as so far I've usually been able to pull off multi assaults and use psychic debuffs to cripple them, while my firepower has whittled down the hard CC units.
EDIT: Actually I'm just going to put this in the GSC thread...
Yeah, to me, claws look superior. Whips are good in certain, rare occasions but claws are good all the time, at least from a mathhammer perspective. I'd consider a couple of whips if your meta includes a lot of Eldary players or Space Wolves Wulfen. Otherwise, I'd go with the claws.
materpillar wrote: So I just played my first game with my bugs. It was super fun! I ran the following list... (prepare yourself for hilariously its unoptimized-ness)
1504 point Tyranids
Hive Tyrant - Wings, old adversary, regeneration, Scything Talons x2
I played against a custom chapter of space marines playing Emperor's Will. The game was a real nail-biter as it ended up going to turn 7. If it had ended on turn 5 I would have lost. If it had ended up on turn 6 I would have won. At the end of turn 7 the score was a 5-5 tie. I actually almost tabled him, he only had a single command squad marine left while I had a squad of warriors, a genestealer, most of my termagaunts and two very wounded carnifexes.
Anyway, the thing that I was wondering about was that he had a command squad full of several force weapons, some lightning claws and a powerfist. That unit single-handedly chewed through my warlord, trygon, carnifex and several hive guard. Admittedly, this was somewhat my fault in bad positioning and only slowly dripping units into him one at a time, but I was wondering if there was any way to deal with this kind of deathball thing (or heaven forbid thunderhammers) while staying strictly non-gun? Just tarpit it while sending my monstrous creatures elsewhere?
The unit you faced was probably what we call a deathstar (or mini-deathstar) unit. Tyranids just really don't have much of an answer against them, other than to bog them down with tarpits or to delay them with screening units. It seems as if he had a unit of Librarians (formation called the Librarian Conclave) attached to his Command squad, making them much more effective in combat than they would normally be. Against those units, its better to screen them out and then shoot them down to a more manageable level. That's why, if I were to run a Tyranid "ground" list, I'd include at least 1 tervigon. These guys can then generate more gribblies to help your army better deal with deathstar, or hammer units.
And, of course, it doesn't hurt to put some dakka on your flyrants or carnifexes if you, you know, decide to run your bugs a little more competitively.
jifel wrote: Ok conversation time: Have the whips actually been that useful for anyone? I've finally gotten my list up and running and have 6 test games under my belt. Like everyone else, I am loving a subterranean uprising with Metamorphs, but I am personally feeling that the claws are just straight up the best way to go. I'm running my list with Flyrant support and so far have been able to just shoot out high I units or drop them with the Brood mind primaris (Bringing a Crouchling Magus and Patriarch, usually telepathy and broodmind) and have managed to cripple WS/I enough that I havent had any problems at all. Black Knight bikers in range? Dropped them to WS/I 3 and hit them with 5 metamorphs, wiped them for no casualties. Also put an all Claw unit into a WK, dropped to I4 and killed it before stomps could hit. I lost a few to WK swings of course, but the S6 + might from beyond + Furious Charge from Iconward made me S8, which helped finish the big guy off as rends alone didnt kill him. It just seems to me that the increase in S is huge compared to I in almost all scenarios, and that the whips are just occasionally useful. Because really, if I have two whip guys in a squad are they really going to do enough damage to save the rest against a faster I unit? There aren't really that many units I feel the whips would help against. Maybe harlequins? Against most armies though I dont mind if a Tac squad kills one guy while I slaughter them, as so far I've usually been able to pull off multi assaults and use psychic debuffs to cripple them, while my firepower has whittled down the hard CC units.
EDIT: Actually I'm just going to put this in the GSC thread...
Yeah, to me, claws look superior. Whips are good in certain, rare occasions but claws are good all the time, at least from a mathhammer perspective. I'd consider a couple of whips if your meta includes a lot of Eldary players or Space Wolves Wulfen. Otherwise, I'd go with the claws.
Wouldn't having whips be a good thing in a mirror match with GSC? With how good these guys are wouldn't some be prudent?
jifel wrote: Ok conversation time: Have the whips actually been that useful for anyone? I've finally gotten my list up and running and have 6 test games under my belt. Like everyone else, I am loving a subterranean uprising with Metamorphs, but I am personally feeling that the claws are just straight up the best way to go. I'm running my list with Flyrant support and so far have been able to just shoot out high I units or drop them with the Brood mind primaris (Bringing a Crouchling Magus and Patriarch, usually telepathy and broodmind) and have managed to cripple WS/I enough that I havent had any problems at all. Black Knight bikers in range? Dropped them to WS/I 3 and hit them with 5 metamorphs, wiped them for no casualties. Also put an all Claw unit into a WK, dropped to I4 and killed it before stomps could hit. I lost a few to WK swings of course, but the S6 + might from beyond + Furious Charge from Iconward made me S8, which helped finish the big guy off as rends alone didnt kill him. It just seems to me that the increase in S is huge compared to I in almost all scenarios, and that the whips are just occasionally useful. Because really, if I have two whip guys in a squad are they really going to do enough damage to save the rest against a faster I unit? There aren't really that many units I feel the whips would help against. Maybe harlequins? Against most armies though I dont mind if a Tac squad kills one guy while I slaughter them, as so far I've usually been able to pull off multi assaults and use psychic debuffs to cripple them, while my firepower has whittled down the hard CC units.
EDIT: Actually I'm just going to put this in the GSC thread...
Yeah, to me, claws look superior. Whips are good in certain, rare occasions but claws are good all the time, at least from a mathhammer perspective. I'd consider a couple of whips if your meta includes a lot of Eldary players or Space Wolves Wulfen. Otherwise, I'd go with the claws.
Wouldn't having whips be a good thing in a mirror match with GSC? With how good these guys are wouldn't some be prudent?
If I know I have a mirror match, absolutely. But then I'm also bringing all hand flamers. Since I don't know that though, I'm going to plan for the meta. Space marines, Tau, Eldar, some deathstars, Daemons, more Eldar. All of these things Id rather have Claws for. Only really want Whips for fast CC units like Stealers, Slaanesh, and Harlequins. Most Marine units I can either mulch or are slower than me thanks to weapons and are super tough (deathstars) so Id rather have the strength 6 there.
jifel wrote: Ok conversation time: Have the whips actually been that useful for anyone? I've finally gotten my list up and running and have 6 test games under my belt. Like everyone else, I am loving a subterranean uprising with Metamorphs, but I am personally feeling that the claws are just straight up the best way to go. I'm running my list with Flyrant support and so far have been able to just shoot out high I units or drop them with the Brood mind primaris (Bringing a Crouchling Magus and Patriarch, usually telepathy and broodmind) and have managed to cripple WS/I enough that I havent had any problems at all. Black Knight bikers in range? Dropped them to WS/I 3 and hit them with 5 metamorphs, wiped them for no casualties. Also put an all Claw unit into a WK, dropped to I4 and killed it before stomps could hit. I lost a few to WK swings of course, but the S6 + might from beyond + Furious Charge from Iconward made me S8, which helped finish the big guy off as rends alone didnt kill him. It just seems to me that the increase in S is huge compared to I in almost all scenarios, and that the whips are just occasionally useful. Because really, if I have two whip guys in a squad are they really going to do enough damage to save the rest against a faster I unit? There aren't really that many units I feel the whips would help against. Maybe harlequins? Against most armies though I dont mind if a Tac squad kills one guy while I slaughter them, as so far I've usually been able to pull off multi assaults and use psychic debuffs to cripple them, while my firepower has whittled down the hard CC units.
EDIT: Actually I'm just going to put this in the GSC thread...
Yeah, to me, claws look superior. Whips are good in certain, rare occasions but claws are good all the time, at least from a mathhammer perspective. I'd consider a couple of whips if your meta includes a lot of Eldary players or Space Wolves Wulfen. Otherwise, I'd go with the claws.
Wouldn't having whips be a good thing in a mirror match with GSC? With how good these guys are wouldn't some be prudent?
If I know I have a mirror match, absolutely. But then I'm also bringing all hand flamers. Since I don't know that though, I'm going to plan for the meta. Space marines, Tau, Eldar, some deathstars, Daemons, more Eldar. All of these things Id rather have Claws for. Only really want Whips for fast CC units like Stealers, Slaanesh, and Harlequins. Most Marine units I can either mulch or are slower than me thanks to weapons and are super tough (deathstars) so Id rather have the strength 6 there.
Only issue is the meta is going to have GSC in some fore in it now. They are just to good. Killing Marines and all eldar befor the kill a third of your unit seams to make more since to me then not. Vs. demons you don't need str 6 at all. it is helpful for wound count overkill.
Mulching a unit does no good if your unit doesn't also survive.
Well, we've just been shoehorned into Flyrant builds more as the final FAQ rules that MCs/FMCs cannot get cover saves from area terrain unless 25% obscured, like vehicles. Flyrants don't care as the new Planetary Onslaught book lets you buy a ruin for 20pts as a Fort, so you can whack a nice 4+ LoS blocker in your deployment zone. But any footslogging MCs are pretty screwed...
Also, FMCs can vector strike after jink, and can NEVER be hit by blasts/templates again, so once again a boon for the best unit in the dex!
Benlisted wrote: Well, we've just been shoehorned into Flyrant builds more as the final FAQ rules that MCs/FMCs cannot get cover saves from area terrain unless 25% obscured, like vehicles. Flyrants don't care as the new Planetary Onslaught book lets you buy a ruin for 20pts as a Fort, so you can whack a nice 4+ LoS blocker in your deployment zone. But any footslogging MCs are pretty screwed...
Also, FMCs can vector strike after jink, and can NEVER be hit by blasts/templates again, so once again a boon for the best unit in the dex!
Benlisted wrote: Well, we've just been shoehorned into Flyrant builds more as the final FAQ rules that MCs/FMCs cannot get cover saves from area terrain unless 25% obscured, like vehicles. Flyrants don't care as the new Planetary Onslaught book lets you buy a ruin for 20pts as a Fort, so you can whack a nice 4+ LoS blocker in your deployment zone. But any footslogging MCs are pretty screwed...
Also, FMCs can vector strike after jink, and can NEVER be hit by blasts/templates again, so once again a boon for the best unit in the dex!
Benlisted wrote: Well, we've just been shoehorned into Flyrant builds more as the final FAQ rules that MCs/FMCs cannot get cover saves from area terrain unless 25% obscured, like vehicles. Flyrants don't care as the new Planetary Onslaught book lets you buy a ruin for 20pts as a Fort, so you can whack a nice 4+ LoS blocker in your deployment zone. But any footslogging MCs are pretty screwed...
Also, FMCs can vector strike after jink, and can NEVER be hit by blasts/templates again, so once again a boon for the best unit in the dex!
Planetary Onslaught lets you do what??
It's created fortification dataslates for all existing terrain kits. So Twisted copse is 10pts, a Shrine of the Aquila (I think) was 20 and conferred AW and NV to units inside. Not bad at all for the price! Those are the only ones that I've seen leaked so far.
Benlisted wrote: Well, we've just been shoehorned into Flyrant builds more as the final FAQ rules that MCs/FMCs cannot get cover saves from area terrain unless 25% obscured, like vehicles.
I think this hurts the other MCs more than ours truthfully, as ours at least have easy access to shrouding for a 5+ in the open without fickle psychic shenanigans. It just means Venomthropes/Malanthropes are just even more mandatory than before.
This is actually a pleasant surprise for the poor Hive Crone, given that the draft version said the opposite. Now it can go back to slicing planes out of the skies while jinking and weaving like a giant kite!
I have been wondering if the list is not focused correctly. I was going for a balanced list but I am not sure if going all in in the Sub Uprising would be better and add another Tyrant..?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel Genestealer are a go big or go home unit. Will see how they work out.
I will be testing 58 of them at a RTT this weekend. I have over 120 models in a in the list.. It has two of the First curse units and a unit of 18 in the BC. So will be giving it a try.
Small units I feel are not worth it. Big unit of them make them a threat giving you board control in that area for the most part.
I feel a lot of people have jumped on the GSC band wagon with a focus on the Meta's and acolytes. I feel genestealer are a good counter to those GSC armies that have gone with MSU format.
The RRT I am going I know 2 other guys that are bring them in some form or another. One guys running them with 5 Flyrants but no Genestealer. Most people taking BC are considering them a tax for the Cult Insurrection.
With a possible strength 6 on the charge they can much most units just fine. The number of attacks and ability to hit on 3's vs most units makes them truly scary. I know my thunder wolf units are scared of coming close to them. Even my wulfen units will not survive very well vs them.
My space wolves are not scared of 5 man squads charging them with wulfen with i5 claws and axe's on the charge swing before they can. But 15 to 20 man genestealer units are another issue.
Is anyone having any luck at tournaments with Tyranids as primary and GSC secondary in the tournament seen yet? I am having good luck so far with Pure GSC.
shadowfinder wrote: Is anyone having any luck at tournaments with Tyranids as primary and GSC secondary in the tournament seen yet? I am having good luck so far with Pure GSC.
Was wondering how the mix was doing so far.
This is more theoryhammer as I don't have any actual experience with GSC, but it seems to me that you need some numbers in order to pull off a GSC list. Without the numbers and force-multipliers of the characters and formations, they don't appear as scary in terms or being threats to the opponent. Basically one of the biggest strengths of the army in my opinion is that it is a very good MTO, or maximum threat overload army. As such, the more units you have the better and more survivable the army becomes.
However, that isn't to say it can't work as a Secondary army. Cheap units with a bite in close combat and which can go back into reserves makes them very good units to support something like a flyrant list. I myself am considering a 3-4 flyrant list with a GSC base (or maybe even a pentyrant + GSC build!).
I have been wondering if the list is not focused correctly. I was going for a balanced list but I am not sure if going all in in the Sub Uprising would be better and add another Tyrant..?
Automatically Appended Next Post: I feel Genestealer are a go big or go home unit. Will see how they work out.
I will be testing 58 of them at a RTT this weekend. I have over 120 models in a in the list.. It has two of the First curse units and a unit of 18 in the BC. So will be giving it a try.
Small units I feel are not worth it. Big unit of them make them a threat giving you board control in that area for the most part.
I feel a lot of people have jumped on the GSC band wagon with a focus on the Meta's and acolytes. I feel genestealer are a good counter to those GSC armies that have gone with MSU format.
The RRT I am going I know 2 other guys that are bring them in some form or another. One guys running them with 5 Flyrants but no Genestealer. Most people taking BC are considering them a tax for the Cult Insurrection.
With a possible strength 6 on the charge they can much most units just fine. The number of attacks and ability to hit on 3's vs most units makes them truly scary. I know my thunder wolf units are scared of coming close to them. Even my wulfen units will not survive very well vs them.
My space wolves are not scared of 5 man squads charging them with wulfen with i5 claws and axe's on the charge swing before they can. But 15 to 20 man genestealer units are another issue.
You should try out this list and then try out a list with less genestealers but 3 flyrants. Let us know about your experiences.
I have been drawn to the pure Genestealer list as I have found the large blob of genestealer to be very good.
I m hoping to try a 2-3 Flyrant list in January. But will have to see if it that comes to pass.
I have to say as a Tyranid player that spammed Genestealer in 5th Ed. I am loving the GSC. The damage they can cause is staggering at time. Other they can play hide and seek with the best of them.
It's been a crazy ride I have played 15 to 20 games and have not lost yet. That's been with Flyrants and Pure GSC list. it's been a wide ride so far.
Jy2 I look forward to hearing your thoughts on the army and your experiences with it or facing it with Mr Robinson.
SO far I have seen very few Battle reports VS gsc cult that haven't had 5 Flyrants or just 5 min max squads. I feel the 5 man squads is not the way to go in the long run.
Great job Ricky! Good to hear that you are doing well with them despite the fact that you don't consider yourself a very competitive player.
Yeah, I think GSC is going to boil down to 2 main camps, the ones that are going GSC full blast MTO style and the ones who are running MSUGSC as support to basically a flyrant army. I think both are viable, though I can't predict which at the moment will be the more successful build.
Btw, in other news, iNcontrol finally lost his first GSC game to a local Space Wolf Wulfen player in our area. He was the same space wolf player I played against in a local tournament (Contest of Champions) recently.
I've had a lot of success locally running full MTO GSC, but I think you're right that it could work well with flyrant support. I just can't tear myself away from the #Lictorshame...love those dudes.
Yeah, if I were to do GSC, I would want to go full GSC MTO as well. However, since I am currently on a budget after "blowing my load" on a whole lot of Sigmar stuff, I'm going to have to work with support GSC + flyrants for now.
Oh, and don't get me started on all the new Tzeentch stuff. Me want! Nom nom nom....
jy2 wrote: Yeah, if I were to do GSC, I would want to go full GSC MTO as well. However, since I am currently on a budget after "blowing my load" on a whole lot of Sigmar stuff, I'm going to have to work with support GSC + flyrants for now.
Oh, and don't get me started on all the new Tzeentch stuff. Me want! Nom nom nom....
Oh I know....the only thing that has me more excited than all of that is the ability to run Kharn and friends again haha. I have a list that has a first curse and then 20 more genestealers led by a second patriarch.....really goes a long way to filling up the points lol! I knew those space hulk minis would hit the table one day!
jy2 wrote: Great job Ricky! Good to hear that you are doing well with them despite the fact that you don't consider yourself a very competitive player.
Yeah, I think GSC is going to boil down to 2 main camps, the ones that are going GSC full blast MTO style and the ones who are running MSUGSC as support to basically a flyrant army. I think both are viable, though I can't predict which at the moment will be the more successful build.
Btw, in other news, iNcontrol finally lost his first GSC game to a local Space Wolf Wulfen player in our area. He was the same space wolf player I played against in a local tournament (Contest of Champions) recently.
Yes i have face a GSC vs GSC match in the last tournament. The list had some similar elements but where still very different. Will be interesting to see how the different list evolve in the future.
Did iNcontrol lose in a Pick up game or at a tournament? I look forward taking top GSC from him at the LVO.
Pickup game. The Space Wolf player has played (and lost) to Geoff's GSC army before so the 2nd time, he was a little more keen to Geoff's tricks and tactics.
You are ambitious, my friend. LVO is going to be almost 500 players. Geoff might not even be the best GSC player if you consider all the guys from the East Coast or even from Europe. Who knows, we may even see Sean Nayden aka Mr #Lictorshame himself running GSC.
It's going to be interesting to see how the meta will be like at the LVO, especially among the top players.
jy2 wrote: Pickup game. The Space Wolf player has played (and lost) to Geoff's GSC army before so the 2nd time, he was a little more keen to Geoff's tricks and tactics.
You are ambitious, my friend. LVO is going to be almost 500 players. Geoff might not even be the best GSC player if you consider all the guys from the East Coast or even from Europe. Who knows, we may even see Sean Nayden aka Mr #Lictorshame himself running GSC.
It's going to be interesting to see how the meta will be like at the LVO, especially among the top players.
Would love to generally just *see* more of that,. I know the coverage is hard to do a lot of but it really grows the community...much like Sean and his beard
jy2 wrote: Pickup game. The Space Wolf player has played (and lost) to Geoff's GSC army before so the 2nd time, he was a little more keen to Geoff's tricks and tactics.
You are ambitious, my friend. LVO is going to be almost 500 players. Geoff might not even be the best GSC player if you consider all the guys from the East Coast or even from Europe. Who knows, we may even see Sean Nayden aka Mr #Lictorshame himself running GSC.
It's going to be interesting to see how the meta will be like at the LVO, especially among the top players.
I know about 10 people taking Pure GSC already and a few more mixing Tyranids with them or vise versa. I just looking to be able to play Vs 6 people I haven't play before.
I lost to Geoff in a Tyranid vs Tyranid battle a few years back. Seams fair I beat him in a GSC vs GSC on the top table right. Right!!
I am sure the competition for best of army will be enticing.
As for being ambitious.. Everyone needs goals right!!
jy2 wrote: Pickup game. The Space Wolf player has played (and lost) to Geoff's GSC army before so the 2nd time, he was a little more keen to Geoff's tricks and tactics.
You are ambitious, my friend. LVO is going to be almost 500 players. Geoff might not even be the best GSC player if you consider all the guys from the East Coast or even from Europe. Who knows, we may even see Sean Nayden aka Mr #Lictorshame himself running GSC.
It's going to be interesting to see how the meta will be like at the LVO, especially among the top players.
I know about 10 people taking Pure GSC already and a few more mixing Tyranids with them or vise versa. I just looking to be able to play Vs 6 people I haven't play before.
I lot to Geoff in a Tyranid vs Tyranid battle a few years back. Seams fair I beat him in a GSC vs GSC on the top table right. Right!!
I am sure the competition for best of army will be enticing.
As for being ambitious.. Everyone needs goals right!!
Those are good goals! Sadly I can't make it over to LVO this year, but I'll be hitting the Florida GTs then ATC. I would also like a second crack at Geoff though, after my Nids tied his AdMech this summer... I was so close to victory.
Hey guys, just checking in with everyone to see how goes the swarm. Anyone been looking at Trygons lately? I'm thinking of trying out a Trygon Prime with the Reaper to see how it works on some of these larger MCS and Vehicles.
Wow this is pretty sad. Feel like I'm necroing this thread. With the new FAQ that nerfs MC cover saves, is it still worth taking a Malanthrope to provide shrouded to Flyrants to guard against a turn 1 alpha strike?
luke1705 wrote: Wow this is pretty sad. Feel like I'm necroing this thread. With the new FAQ that nerfs MC cover saves, is it still worth taking a Malanthrope to provide shrouded to Flyrants to guard against a turn 1 alpha strike?
I think it can still be worth it, but you need to also take a ruin as fortification to give yourself a LoS blocking piece of cover that will still work via obscured rules. Fortunately this isn't a bad option anyway as its only 20pts and will be helpful in general! It is annoying that our best model got better (FMCs got some minor buffs in that blasts don't scatter onto them and they can vector strike after jinking) but our walking MCs are now even worse than they already were. I've been hearing vaguely that we might be featured in one of the gathering storm books and presumably we'll get a decurion there - we really need some amazing special rules for formations to help us out!
luke1705 wrote:Wow this is pretty sad. Feel like I'm necroing this thread. With the new FAQ that nerfs MC cover saves, is it still worth taking a Malanthrope to provide shrouded to Flyrants to guard against a turn 1 alpha strike?
I don't know if this thread will ever be a dead thread...it's got almost 400 pages worth of participation! It's EASILY one of the longest and strongest discussions of any faction in 40k, even if they are terrible in terms of viability.
Benlisted wrote:
luke1705 wrote: Wow this is pretty sad. Feel like I'm necroing this thread. With the new FAQ that nerfs MC cover saves, is it still worth taking a Malanthrope to provide shrouded to Flyrants to guard against a turn 1 alpha strike?
I think it can still be worth it, but you need to also take a ruin as fortification to give yourself a LoS blocking piece of cover that will still work via obscured rules. Fortunately this isn't a bad option anyway as its only 20pts and will be helpful in general! It is annoying that our best model got better (FMCs got some minor buffs in that blasts don't scatter onto them and they can vector strike after jinking) but our walking MCs are now even worse than they already were. I've been hearing vaguely that we might be featured in one of the gathering storm books and presumably we'll get a decurion there - we really need some amazing special rules for formations to help us out!
Speaking of FAQs, is anyone else disappointed that our FAQ was so small? Subterranean assault could have been DECENT, but still it's just a watered down rule that's done better in any other book. I'm really holding on to a glimmer of hope that a potential rule change on the horizon will allow Tyranids to be a viable stand alone book again. The sad reality is, if you're looking for a mildly competitive faction in the 40K universe and you've got over 20,000+ points of Tyranids you've got to pull in the GSC rules........Not that I know anyone with 20,000+ points of Tyranids *cough cough*
Speaking of FAQs, is anyone else disappointed that our FAQ was so small? Subterranean assault could have been DECENT, but still it's just a watered down rule that's done better in any other book. I'm really holding on to a glimmer of hope that a potential rule change on the horizon will allow Tyranids to be a viable stand alone book again. The sad reality is, if you're looking for a mildly competitive faction in the 40K universe and you've got over 20,000+ points of Tyranids you've got to pull in the GSC rules........Not that I know anyone with 20,000+ points of Tyranids *cough cough*
The one marginally interesting tidbit is that Tyrants can now leave as well as join units of Guard. So you can use your 50pt guard units as essentially 2 extra wounds for a flyrant before it takes off (also useful since it's infantry, and can get normal cover) before proceeding to deckchair on backfield objectives for the rest of the game. I believe, RaW, that when flying back onto the board from reserves, there's nothing to stop the flyrant joining the guard as well! But since that would mean you can shoot them normally rather than snapshooting, that's not likely to be useful...
Speaking of FAQs, is anyone else disappointed that our FAQ was so small? Subterranean assault could have been DECENT, but still it's just a watered down rule that's done better in any other book. I'm really holding on to a glimmer of hope that a potential rule change on the horizon will allow Tyranids to be a viable stand alone book again. The sad reality is, if you're looking for a mildly competitive faction in the 40K universe and you've got over 20,000+ points of Tyranids you've got to pull in the GSC rules........Not that I know anyone with 20,000+ points of Tyranids *cough cough*
Yeah I'm still a plebeian at below 10k. But you can play Tyranids competitively without GSC assistance as long as you don't mind taking 3 or 4 Flyrants. They're still one of the best units in the game. Our problem is that their supporting cast is weak (and now with it being harder to hide the Malanthrope and harder to give the Flyrants 2+ cover turn 1 without jinking, our anti-alpha took a huge hit). But I've played Nick Nanavati's old double daemon death star list (which won Adepticon) to a near tie (I made a mistake on the last turn that cost me the chance to tie).
I'm sure any army would be fine with having the ability to do that, so I think we can still do it. The reason why I moved away from the Nids was because GSC are the new hotness, and I just got tired of playing mono build Nids (and I have 4 Flyrants in my list, which is pretty non-interactive, so not too fun for most people). There's just a really big chasm between the power level of a "normal" Nids list and a "normal" list for any book Necrons and later, which is why most people struggle to do as well with Nids. You have to try harder to level the playing field.
I'm another 20000+ pts of NIDS player mostly due to other people buying and bailing so I could get them cheap. I am very much looking forward to some new rules. I have to always ask my opponents if they want to fight my tourni list or just a "fun" swarmy list. Though regardless I never go above 3 Flyrants I like diversity too much :-)
So I've got a tourney coming up soonis, and I wanted to bring the old bugs to the party. Just wondering if anyone has used a similar list to what I have planned to good effect.
1850
[Skyblight]
Flyrant w/ TL-Devourers, e-grubs
Harpy w/ TL-HVC Harpy w/ TL-HVC Crone
3x20 gargoyles
There is an issue with dakkafex build as there is written "carnifex can replace one pair of scything talons with twin devourer". I dont have the codex with me to correct this.
Spreelock wrote: There is an issue with dakkafex build as there is written "carnifex can replace one pair of scything talons with twin devourer". I dont have the codex with me to correct this.
No, the 0-1 restriction is only for heavy venom cannon or stranglethorn cannon.
So, has anyone looked at the rules for Tyranid kill teams in Shadow War Armageddon? I've only looked through it briefly but it looks like Tyranid Warriors are fairly high quality infantry with slightly above average speed (5'' instead of the standard 4'') and we get a couple nice rules (can't be disarmed, never take fear/terror tests, and can't be pinned).
For our options, we have a variety of Warriors (Alpha, Warrior, New-Spawn, and Gun-beast) and Primes, Raveners, and Zoanthropes for operatives. The Zoanthrope in particular looks nasty, since it never runs out of ammo for its Warp Blast and now just needs to manifest on a passed Ld. Test. It also retains its 3+ invul, which looks like it will be hugely useful with almost everything having a -1 to saves.
Other tidbits:
- In general, it looks like Tyranid bio-weaponry won't run out of ammunition very easily, with the worst ammo roll being a 5+ on 2D6 (biocannons) and the best being on a 3+ (Spinefists).
- Raveners lost their 12'' movement outside of running/charging but gain the ability to move up to 36'' on the first turn before the game begins.
- Boneswords are +2 strength and inflict D3 wounds while allowing the model to parry, paired swords allow reroll to wound in hand to hand and two parries.
- Lash Whip reduces enemy attacks instead of increasing initiative.
- Scything Talons allow the model to reroll to wound with two pairs and add +1 WS for each extra set of talons after the first (Raveners are treated as having 3 pairs, thus get a +2 to WS).
- Devourers gained Living Ammunition, so they reroll all failed to wound rolls.
- Venom Cannons lost blast, instead looks like they fire a large volume of dice instead.
- Adrenal Glands add +1 to movement.
- Flesh Hooks allow the model to climb over obstacles as difficult terrain instead of impassible.
Strat_N8 wrote: So, has anyone looked at the rules for Tyranid kill teams in Shadow War Armageddon? I've only looked through it briefly but it looks like Tyranid Warriors are fairly high quality infantry with slightly above average speed (5'' instead of the standard 4'') and we get a couple nice rules (can't be disarmed, never take fear/terror tests, and can't be pinned).
For our options, we have a variety of Warriors (Alpha, Warrior, New-Spawn, and Gun-beast) and Primes, Raveners, and Zoanthropes for operatives. The Zoanthrope in particular looks nasty, since it never runs out of ammo for its Warp Blast and now just needs to manifest on a passed Ld. Test. It also retains its 3+ invul, which looks like it will be hugely useful with almost everything having a -1 to saves.
Other tidbits:
- In general, it looks like Tyranid bio-weaponry won't run out of ammunition very easily, with the worst ammo roll being a 5+ on 2D6 (biocannons) and the best being on a 3+ (Spinefists).
- Raveners lost their 12'' movement outside of running/charging but gain the ability to move up to 36'' on the first turn before the game begins.
- Boneswords are +2 strength and inflict D3 wounds while allowing the model to parry, paired swords allow reroll to wound in hand to hand and two parries.
- Lash Whip reduces enemy attacks instead of increasing initiative.
- Scything Talons allow the model to reroll to wound with two pairs and add +1 WS for each extra set of talons after the first (Raveners are treated as having 3 pairs, thus get a +2 to WS).
- Devourers gained Living Ammunition, so they reroll all failed to wound rolls.
- Venom Cannons lost blast, instead looks like they fire a large volume of dice instead.
- Adrenal Glands add +1 to movement.
- Flesh Hooks allow the model to climb over obstacles as difficult terrain instead of impassible.
Nids do look pretty solid, though there's an error in the Rending claw rules - no model can every have 2 pairs, as all must have at least one pair of Scytals.
Beggars belief that there isn't a bleeding Lictor in there though, Shadow War is the perfect format for them, and apparently a Zoan fits better? Will still be trying a Nid team out. Just need to figure out how to distinguish the three levels of specialist now...
Nids do look pretty solid, though there's an error in the Rending claw rules - no model can every have 2 pairs, as all must have at least one pair of Scytals.
Didn't catch that... Oops. I know in the Genestealer Cult section the bonus applies with two individual claws, so hopefully it will be adjusted. Also doesn't appear to be a way to buy Devourers for regular Warriors either, just Raveners. :(
Beggars belief that there isn't a bleeding Lictor in there though, Shadow War is the perfect format for them, and apparently a Zoan fits better? Will still be trying a Nid team out. Just need to figure out how to distinguish the three levels of specialist now...
It looks like all the options across all armies are exclusively plastic kits, so it is probably less thematic and more to do with Lictors still being Finecast. Granted, our leader can take stealth skills, so one could take an Alpha with Scything Talons/Rending Claws and Flesh Hooks to represent a Lictor.
I'll have to take a trip to town tomorrow to see if our local shop will be getting any copies of Shadow War. No idea what the point level is for the kill teams, but I imagine it has to be fairly high given how expensive various models are compared to their main game counterparts.
Nids do look pretty solid, though there's an error in the Rending claw rules - no model can every have 2 pairs, as all must have at least one pair of Scytals.
Didn't catch that... Oops. I know in the Genestealer Cult section the bonus applies with two individual claws, so hopefully it will be adjusted. Also doesn't appear to be a way to buy Devourers for regular Warriors either, just Raveners. :(
Oh damn, totally didn't notice that either. That's super annoying as most of my warriors (and I am assuming everyone else's) are equipped with them. And it's a bit in the plastic box, so no reason they can't be. Might have to email them asking whether that (and the Rending Claws thing) were intended.
Hopefully the Devourers is just an oversight. Still, even if it is intentional I have 6 Warriors modeled with Deathspitters that can be used. Getting a bio-cannon in the list might be tricky though, depending on how many points the kill teams run...
I'm very curious how well Flesh Hooks will work, especially given how the box set comes with so much vertical-oriented terrain that can be climbed. Might be able to take advantage of the non-linear approach vectors to get into the thick of things quickly...
Nids do look pretty solid, though there's an error in the Rending claw rules - no model can every have 2 pairs, as all must have at least one pair of Scytals.
If you look a bit closer, in the Resupplying a Tyranid Kill Team section it says you may replace any set of arms with another. The example they give is a warrior with scytals and a deathspitter replacing the scytals with BS+LW.
So you could conceivably take two pairs of rending claws.
Nids do look pretty solid, though there's an error in the Rending claw rules - no model can every have 2 pairs, as all must have at least one pair of Scytals.
If you look a bit closer, in the Resupplying a Tyranid Kill Team section it says you may replace any set of arms with another. The example they give is a warrior with scytals and a deathspitter replacing the scytals with BS+LW.
So you could conceivably take two pairs of rending claws.
Interesting point, I didn't clock that either. However I don't know if you'd ever want to go the 2xRC route, as all you get is a -1 to save from scytals, and you lose the +2WS 2x scytal would give you! And you're paying 30pts more for the privelege. Dual scytals seems a better bargain basement melee option to me, dual boneswords and scytal the more expensive one. Not that I have any models with either 2x scytal or 2x RC arms heh...
Also, the way that section is worded makes it seem like you can swap out the scytal for a second gun - so 2x DS and 2x VC even look to be viable options, even though a model with that sort of load out is going to look absolutely absurd! But with BS4 that could be absolutely brutal, if intended.
Also, the way that section is worded makes it seem like you can swap out the scytal for a second gun - so 2x DS and 2x VC even look to be viable options, even though a model with that sort of load out is going to look absolutely absurd! But with BS4 that could be absolutely brutal, if intended.
I suppose that depends on whether the killteam rules permit the models to fire more than one gun.
I'm leaning towards 'probably not', given that it might also allow weirdness such as space marines firing both a bolter and a bolt pistol at the same time.
Also, the way that section is worded makes it seem like you can swap out the scytal for a second gun - so 2x DS and 2x VC even look to be viable options, even though a model with that sort of load out is going to look absolutely absurd! But with BS4 that could be absolutely brutal, if intended.
I suppose that depends on whether the killteam rules permit the models to fire more than one gun.
I'm leaning towards 'probably not', given that it might also allow weirdness such as space marines firing both a bolter and a bolt pistol at the same time.
Good point, you're probably right in that it's not allowed. However, given the gun jam rules, a DS/VC gun-beast wouldn't be forced into melee if the VC runs out of ammo - so could still be viable!
Ok so things about Tyranid kill teams, after playing a ton of games with them:
1) They are amazing. Warriors are terrifying
2) Leader has to be a warrior called an Alpha (better BS but otherwise same stat line)
3) Regular warriors are your troopers. Your new recruits are called new-spawn (a warrior with -1 WS)
4) Specialist is a gun-beast (a BS 4 warrior)
5) Special operatives are:
Ravener (essentially guaranteed turn 1 assault as long as you go first)
Zoanthrope (nasty mind bullets, made all the more nasty now that psychic tests are LD tests again)
Tyranid Prime (warrior buff-machine, giving your whole army WS 6 if they're within 6" of it, causing LD checks for any enemy models with 8" and fighting any number of models without being disadvantaged <- this is a bigger deal than you think)
6) Combat is an opposed roll (kind of like Risk - the defender rolls their attacks, you roll your attacks and compare only the highest result, though there are modifiers. The difference is how many to wound rolls the winner makes, meaning that the dominant CC model will never get hurt in CC unless it loses the roll)
6) On that note, high WS is a big deal because it basically gives you +1 to your combat roll for every 1 you are higher than your opponent (so a WS 6 Tyranid vs a WS 4 marine would get +2)
7) That means that extra attacks are great because you will more reliably get a high roll, like with move through cover.
8) You can have two sets of weapons since you have 4 arms
9) You can have any number of biomorph upgrades....they're reasonably costed but only a few are worthwhile (+1 Move, shred, +1 armor save)
10) The guns are almost as good as other armies' options, and classically-Tyranid (bunch of shots)
11) The CC weapons are terrifying, allowing even the basic Tyranid trooper to stand tall against almost any model in the game when you have the BS + LW 12) For the first 4-5 games, you won't be subject to anything strong enough to chew through all 3 of your wounds before you get to combat
13) CC is not only viable but a very strong strategy. We are the premier CC specialists as far as I've seen, and we have the speed and durability to get there more or less unscathed
14) Our army special rules don't quite make us fearless but its close
Foot Nids getting better without Flying Nids getting worse. Flyrants arent really OP anymore in the current meta, so Id hate to see them nerfed in the name of variety. Instead, I just want the rest of the book brought up to that level.
jifel wrote: Foot Nids getting better without Flying Nids getting worse. Flyrants arent really OP anymore in the current meta, so Id hate to see them nerfed in the name of variety. Instead, I just want the rest of the book brought up to that level.
To be fair, the entire meta is basically burning, 8th edition will be a clean slate with a new meta.
jifel wrote: Foot Nids getting better without Flying Nids getting worse. Flyrants arent really OP anymore in the current meta, so Id hate to see them nerfed in the name of variety. Instead, I just want the rest of the book brought up to that level.
To be fair, the entire meta is basically burning, 8th edition will be a clean slate with a new meta.
I get what you are saying, but is there any factual reason to believe that the power level of the meta is being reeled back in? Or is that just speculation?
Theres hope with the stance gw is taking, but when orks got their update, they nerfed the gak out of stuff that was passable just to make the other stuff more take-able rather than bringing it all up to snuff.
jifel wrote: Foot Nids getting better without Flying Nids getting worse. Flyrants arent really OP anymore in the current meta, so Id hate to see them nerfed in the name of variety. Instead, I just want the rest of the book brought up to that level.
To be fair, the entire meta is basically burning, 8th edition will be a clean slate with a new meta.
I get what you are saying, but is there any factual reason to believe that the power level of the meta is being reeled back in? Or is that just speculation?
GW stated that it is new rules for everyone and that the current codices will be pretty much useless.
Also they stated there will 3 modes to play, one being competitive.
so then back to the original question, what would we like to see? I'm sure core rules will be changed but as always I'm sure the game will fundamentally stay true to itself, so just working with that how we would like to see units in the dex perform in regards to each other, rather than the rest of the game, who's dexes lets just assume for the sake of it will all end out around the same power level, ours included.
I'd like to see Synapse become an actual army ability, rather than a restriction. I'm all for units acting erratically if they fall outside of Synapse range, and I don't think the current table is TERRIBLE with a few tweaks, but I think Synapse needs to give some decent buffs while inside of it. Eternal Warrior, Fearless and +1A might be nice. Don't force us to tax Synapse tax units, it just makes list building unfun. Stop pricing units higher for having it. Make it an army mechanic that at the start of the game we get to auto spore in like 4 synapse pegs, but that can be attacked by an enemy to punish bad positioning.
I think 6" speed dedicated CC units that don't get assault vehicles are a flawed concept, MC base size even more so. They are a gimmick and always will be, no matter how good you make them they will either be completely unreliable way to apply damage (see the Dimae), or you will eventually give them so much ridiculous CC gak that eventually they will be ~100 pt Swarmlords that are just too cost effective not to be spammed even if some of them don't make it to combat (imagine Dima with more buffs to its CC). Just make sensible design, give them a way to make it to combat - other armies MC's are range based for christ sake and move double this speed.
I'd like a playable monstrous creature troop unit. I personally much prefer Big Nids to blowing points on fodder, I don't mind the odd pack of Gargoyles sometimes, but silly troop tax like useless mines or spending the extra points to get a scoring but still mostly useless squad of Horms kinda sucks. This is pretty much the Tervigon's role, would love to see it made decent, but being able to alter the FOC and turn Fexes or something into troops would be dope as a condition for going all MC.
On this note, I think most the infantry in our dex in general is overcosted and needs a points reduction. I'm fine with them being trash but winning through numbers, but you need to be able to pull numbers out without significantly impacting your army or even costing you another MC for one squad of Gants, its never gonna be worth it. Let alone the cost of something like a squad of Rav's or Shrikes. Ouch.
And then just quality of life fixes, tiny things that would make units playable. E.G. Fix the damn Trygon tunnels, let units can come through the same turn and bam he has a role (maybe a point reduction too though). Fix our AT, Crone and Tyrannofex are not flawed by design, but simply flawed by the subpar quality of their overpriced AT weapons. Same story for Zopes. I think Flyrant's are good design, their mobility lets us hit at rear armor. They are quite a power unit in comparison to the rest of the dex though. Making it so that you can't just spam them is probably a good start toward balancing that, and if Flyer's survivability is toned down, then I think they deserve a points reduction to go with it.
I like how the psychic phase works, it's cool and makes sense. I hate our borderline useless table, and there should be more buffs like Onslaught and less crap like the maledictions.
Just my casual opinions that I'm open to be swayed on, but I think changes like this would be nice towards the internal balance of our dex.
On thing, movement will be a stat, with hormagaunts supposed to be faster than Eldar (which in turn are faster than Guardsmen).
And initiative will be gone, with charging units striking first, WS will be a fixed role like BS and more wounds for everyone, as multi-wound weapons will be more common.
From what I have read so far, it sounds like this is going to be the edition for swarms as their two biggest vulnerabilities (area of effect weapons and poor anti-vehicle capability) are being eliminated in one swift stroke. Supposedly vehicles are having their unique armor values thrown out in favor of something similar to the behemoth rules in Age of Sigmar and complete immunity to damage due to too low of strength is supposedly being thrown out as well (whether this means a 6 will always wound or some new system that allows one to roll a 7+ if needed remains to be seen). As for templates, the general speculation is that they are going away for good and will probably end up being replaced with a random number of hits ala Age of Sigmar, meaning such weapons probably aren't going to be quite as effective against massed bodies as they are presently (plus no need to worry about spacing anymore).
Still, I don't think speculation based on what our current book does will get very far in regards to whatever they have planned for us in 8th edition. I imagine virtually everything will end up being rebuilt from the ground up that very few units will be recognizable outside of their basic roles (Warriors as synaptic troops for instance).
Edit: Guess I spoke a little too soon. The 40k community page apparently put up a few of the new stat lines as examples of what to expect. (link). Also mentions Hormagaunts will run faster than Eldar (who in turn out run Guardsmen) and shows Terminators are a bit slower than they are currently.
It's too hard to tell, but I like a clean slate. And if we're getting rid of all of these ridiculous combos, I can only see good things for the bugs. But we'll see as time gets closer.
Nice, so we might finally get 12" Horms and other useful cc Nids. I can't imagine Orks will still be moving any faster Gaurdsmen speed as well (although obviously with Trukks to make up for it), but finally something beneficial to separate our style of assault units from theirs, rather than just being flat worse. I'm sure Orks will still be the premier assault army (thematically I mean, that is to say excluding Deathstars and the like) but we will no doubt keep our bullet dice to make up for it, and that's how I like it.
I actually don't think we will see drastic changes to the role and kit of many units, in MOST cases (I'm sure the odd unit here and there might get the odd rework, especially Psykers). For the most part though I'm thinking steps will probably be taken to make most units useable. There's gotta be a thousand or so units in the game, reimagining every single one on top of writing a brand new ruleset, is not only impractical but also un-necessary, and also extremely difficult considering at the end of the day the sprues all have the same gear and add-ons that they will have to make new roles for, and that's not even changes likely to go down well if they did do that. Something like the Maleceptor might be liable for some real changes, but something like the Tyranid Warriors will likely stay almost identical, with any main changes being in points. That's my SPECULATION any way, I don't think TOO much is going to change there.
I gotta say though I'm very excited by the idea of Horms being of the fastest type of Infantry, especially since it speaks to me that these guys are putting some care into making Tyranids unique. Stands to reason this will probably happen with the Dimae too, who stands to be potentially one of the bigger winners of the army in the new edition when you consider that they are striving to improve CC in general as well.
Also, initiative changes are big too, considering we really just have average initiative (outside of Stealers and Lictors) and often don't even get to use it due to lack of grenades.
Got 40 Hormagaunts that still need painting.. they may actually get done after the rules come out.. But I am looking forward to hopefully my good old Carnifex being good once again (hopefully)
GodDamUser wrote: Got 40 Hormagaunts that still need painting.. they may actually get done after the rules come out.. But I am looking forward to hopefully my good old Carnifex being good once again (hopefully)
It's already a great unit, I wouldn't expect any direct buffs there. Maybe it will benefit from the new core rules, I guess with the extra wounds and them being the most spammable MC there might be an improvement there, and he might not get tarpitted so easily with decent combat mechanics (probably needs a WS buff though).
Howdy all, I've been "out of the loop", health probs, as always I saw a few teasers about 8th today, that look like they don't stink.. But they were only Imperial food beasts, any Xeno info around?
GodDamUser wrote: Got 40 Hormagaunts that still need painting.. they may actually get done after the rules come out.. But I am looking forward to hopefully my good old Carnifex being good once again (hopefully)
It's already a great unit, I wouldn't expect any direct buffs there. Maybe it will benefit from the new core rules, I guess with the extra wounds and them being the most spammable MC there might be an improvement there, and he might not get tarpitted so easily with decent combat mechanics (probably needs a WS buff though).
It Seems like units are no longer locked into combat, so "tarpitting" may no longer be a thing. I dunno if that is good, or bad. Most likely its just differant. I'd really like seeing Tyranids get their MC Mojo back.
pinecone77 wrote: Howdy all, I've been "out of the loop", health probs, as always I saw a few teasers about 8th today, that look like they don't stink.. But they were only Imperial food beasts, any Xeno info around?
GodDamUser wrote: Got 40 Hormagaunts that still need painting.. they may actually get done after the rules come out.. But I am looking forward to hopefully my good old Carnifex being good once again (hopefully)
It's already a great unit, I wouldn't expect any direct buffs there. Maybe it will benefit from the new core rules, I guess with the extra wounds and them being the most spammable MC there might be an improvement there, and he might not get tarpitted so easily with decent combat mechanics (probably needs a WS buff though).
It Seems like units are no longer locked into combat, so "tarpitting" may no longer be a thing. I dunno if that is good, or bad. Most likely its just differant. I'd really like seeing Tyranids get their MC Mojo back.
Only confirmed Xeno info is that Eldar move faster than Guardsmen, and Hormagaunts move faster than both. No specifics though.
Well, in the latest teaser they mentioned the Swarmlord will hit in melee on 2s, so there's something specific.
jy2 wrote: It's too hard to tell, but I like a clean slate. And if we're getting rid of all of these ridiculous combos, I can only see good things for the bugs. But we'll see as time gets closer.
Btw, 40K is getting Sigmar'd....
Jim, have you been part of the play testing done using the new rules? If so, I know you are under an NDA of sorts but I would be curious to hear how you think it shapes things for Nids, in broad strokes of course?
pinecone77 wrote: Howdy all, I've been "out of the loop", health probs, as always I saw a few teasers about 8th today, that look like they don't stink.. But they were only Imperial food beasts, any Xeno info around?
GodDamUser wrote: Got 40 Hormagaunts that still need painting.. they may actually get done after the rules come out.. But I am looking forward to hopefully my good old Carnifex being good once again (hopefully)
It's already a great unit, I wouldn't expect any direct buffs there. Maybe it will benefit from the new core rules, I guess with the extra wounds and them being the most spammable MC there might be an improvement there, and he might not get tarpitted so easily with decent combat mechanics (probably needs a WS buff though).
It Seems like units are no longer locked into combat, so "tarpitting" may no longer be a thing. I dunno if that is good, or bad. Most likely its just differant. I'd really like seeing Tyranids get their MC Mojo back.
Tarpitting as a permanent lockdown is no longer a thing, but the unit falling back out of combat cannot do anything at all that turn. The 'drag in extra units with your 3" Pile In' mechanic has potential; think of big waves of Hormagaunts crashing into a unit with a really wide coverage, eating a degree of Overwatch and then "oh look, I can rope in those units on the flanks of the unit I charged as well... do you want to be in CC next turn or fall back to safety but do nothing?". Staying in CC holds the extra units in place ready to be swamped next turn, and if they choose to fall back then great, no incoming firepower.
I imagine we'll go back to wave tactics with fast disposable units (Hormagaunts and Gargoyles) hitting first to grapple with targets, and then have the heavy lifters move in on the following turn. Really fast high quality assault units (Raveners?) will probably be awesome because they can divebomb targets of opportunity from significant range to capitalise on whatever units you've managed to grapple with your first wave.
Well, I've got a bit to say about the overall future of Tyranids. The fact that templates are gone is a great change for us. We don't need to worry about 2in spacing between models now so I can shove plenty of my troops down my opponents throat. That being said, for all of you just chucking out the idea that moving is going to be easier now for mass hordes, please take it to heart that hormagaunts still spill over their bases by quite a margin and you will have to deal with that. Gargoyles will be a pain.
I accept the idea that MCs will get worse as they are hurt, but remember some crucial things guys; We don't happen to have a ton of high strength shooting here, so expect to not get full mileage from any of your larger bugs. It seems we may get back sizable control over the psychic phase since it seems like each faction only has a set table of spells to pull from, while they know everything on it, and it seems like invisibility may be gone. The issue for deny is now that you have to to be within 12in or so to actually attempt it, and how many armies actually have more psykers than us? Expect the option to upgrade to Psyker models to be more valuable than before. Broodlords should be fairly fun considering they are dedicated CC, which will translate into better to hit in 8th.
One thing that will be absolutely vital to us in this next edition is multi assaulting. Remember, with alternating unit activations, you do not go for their biggest guys, but rather the next unit in sequence that hasn't gone yet. I know it sounds odd, but don't be hasty to just charge in. The extra threat ranges give you 4 inches of problems, since you have to pile in on the closest enemy. Overwatch is unlimited. Hitting 2 units sounds great, but not when you take unnecessary fire. In 8th, our best chances seem to come in hedging a rough 1.5 to 1 odds.
jy2 wrote: It's too hard to tell, but I like a clean slate. And if we're getting rid of all of these ridiculous combos, I can only see good things for the bugs. But we'll see as time gets closer.
Btw, 40K is getting Sigmar'd....
Jim, have you been part of the play testing done using the new rules? If so, I know you are under an NDA of sorts but I would be curious to hear how you think it shapes things for Nids, in broad strokes of course?
Sorry, but I haven't. Though I have been playing more Sigmar lately than 40K, so I kinda have an idea of where the new edition's going.
Sinful Hero wrote: I wonder if any of the Termagant weapons will count as pistols, such as the Spinefists.
Been wondering the seame, I am currently assembling termagants and leaving them without hands, but I presume I would put spinefists on them. With the wound table and cc shooting rule, spinefists would definitely be the way to go.
Not be so sure, the new wound table will make fleshborers far better against t6 and t7 targets (which will be most vehicles and MC). S3 wounds t6 and t7 on a 6+ while s4 will do it in a 5+.
Did you guys hear? There are no more Independent Characters. That means each HQ will be on his own. However, his protection would be that you cannot shoot at him if there is another enemy model closer.
Good times for our bugs, perhaps?
At the very least, this does away with super-deathstars or even normal deathstars.
jy2 wrote: Did you guys hear? There are no more Independent Characters. That means each HQ will be on his own. However, his protection would be that you cannot shoot at him if there is another enemy model closer.
Good times for our bugs, perhaps?
At the very least, this does away with super-deathstars or even normal deathstars.
If that holds true, it would be Very nice!
Automatically Appended Next Post: And it might make my "Winged Assassin" Tyrant a force once again.
So with the new "IC" rules and how blasts are a thing of the past does this mean we can finally have walking Tyrants behind Carnifex squads (or even behind hormigaunts running up the field with only snipers able to hurt them? or are they gonna stick us with a version of the old "kill the big ones" rule that wrecked our ground forces back in 4th? I really hope to see more wounds on most of our MC's in this edition.
Tyran wrote: I'm not sure the Hive Tyrant will get the character status.
More likely it will not be targetable if it is close to Tyrant Guard.
I'm guessing the Tyrant Guard will probably change from a stand-alone unit to part of the Tyrant's unit instead (i.e. composition 1 Hive Tyrant, 0-3 Tyrant Guard). They already share the same toughness and save, so it won't break the "no mixed save/toughness units" theme they have for the edition and fluff-wise Tyrant Guard are always bonded to a Tyrant, they don't wander about by their lonesome unless their charge is killed.
jy2 wrote: Latest news.....twin-linked weapons now fire double the number of shots. Hello dakkarants and dakkafexes!
Btw, in the "old" system, a dakkarant would average 10.67 hits. In the "new" system, the dakkarant would average 16 hits!!!
That's assuming Brainleech Devourers will remain 6 shot weapons. It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped to 3 shots each as the old rules seemed to be written with the assumption they would always come in pairs and regular Devourers have 3 shots each...
That said, I'm more intrigued with the change to blasts. Harpies suddenly look rather attractive as damage dealers with 2D3 Venom Cannon Shots or 2D6 Stranglethorn Shots. Granted, with fliers having their own force-org chart they might have to compete with flying Tyrants, depending on whether the new edition has mixed role units like Age of Sigmar.
jy2 wrote: Carnifexes will probably inflict D6dmg in cc.
Tyrants maybe D3 dmg in cc.
Regular grubs 1 dmg.
I doubt it, as all of the damage values have been tied to weapons and I can't see Scything Talons doing multiple damage based on how ubiquitous they are. That said, I could see Boneswords doing D3 damage (D6 paired) and Crushing Claws doing D6. Curious to see what Rending Claws end up doing too, since in Shadow War they have a -3 AP (-2 base and -1 for their wielders being S4) and allow rerolling to wound rolls.
Also speaking of Shadow War, they added Devourers to the biomorph list for 40 points.
Tyran wrote: I'm not sure the Hive Tyrant will get the character status.
More likely it will not be targetable if it is close to Tyrant Guard.
I'm guessing the Tyrant Guard will probably change from a stand-alone unit to part of the Tyrant's unit instead (i.e. composition 1 Hive Tyrant, 0-3 Tyrant Guard). They already share the same toughness and save, so it won't break the "no mixed save/toughness units" theme they have for the edition and fluff-wise Tyrant Guard are always bonded to a Tyrant, they don't wander about by their lonesome unless their charge is killed.
jy2 wrote: Latest news.....twin-linked weapons now fire double the number of shots. Hello dakkarants and dakkafexes!
Btw, in the "old" system, a dakkarant would average 10.67 hits. In the "new" system, the dakkarant would average 16 hits!!!
That's assuming Brainleech Devourers will remain 6 shot weapons. It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped to 3 shots each as the old rules seemed to be written with the assumption they would always come in pairs and regular Devourers have 3 shots each...
That said, I'm more intrigued with the change to blasts. Harpies suddenly look rather attractive as damage dealers with 2D3 Venom Cannon Shots or 2D6 Stranglethorn Shots. Granted, with fliers having their own force-org chart they might have to compete with flying Tyrants, depending on whether the new edition has mixed role units like Age of Sigmar.
jy2 wrote: Carnifexes will probably inflict D6dmg in cc.
Tyrants maybe D3 dmg in cc.
Regular grubs 1 dmg.
I doubt it, as all of the damage values have been tied to weapons and I can't see Scything Talons doing multiple damage based on how ubiquitous they are. That said, I could see Boneswords doing D3 damage (D6 paired) and Crushing Claws doing D6. Curious to see what Rending Claws end up doing too, since in Shadow War they have a -3 AP (-2 base and -1 for their wielders being S4) and allow rerolling to wound rolls.
Also speaking of Shadow War, they added Devourers to the biomorph list for 40 points.
If it's anything like Sigmar, there will be less weapon options and each unit will get its own unique attack form. That's why I am thinking that each unit will have its own unique damage type as opposed to having common shared Tyranid weaponry. For example, a Tyrant scything talons won't do the same damage as a hormagant scything talon. Rather, hormagant scything talons may be called hormie talons and do base 1 dmg whereas Hive Tyrant scything talons may be called Tyrant claws or something and do a base D3 damage.
Of course this is just speculation on my part, based on how Age of Sigmar is currently.
As for twin-linked devourers, it is possible for the number of shots to go down. However, from what GW are saying (i.e. Land Raider crusaders are going to be beasts with their twin-linked shooting), I am thinking that they won't nerf the number of shots of current GW units.
Tyran wrote: I'm not sure the Hive Tyrant will get the character status.
More likely it will not be targetable if it is close to Tyrant Guard.
I'm guessing the Tyrant Guard will probably change from a stand-alone unit to part of the Tyrant's unit instead (i.e. composition 1 Hive Tyrant, 0-3 Tyrant Guard). They already share the same toughness and save, so it won't break the "no mixed save/toughness units" theme they have for the edition and fluff-wise Tyrant Guard are always bonded to a Tyrant, they don't wander about by their lonesome unless their charge is killed.
jy2 wrote: Latest news.....twin-linked weapons now fire double the number of shots. Hello dakkarants and dakkafexes!
Btw, in the "old" system, a dakkarant would average 10.67 hits. In the "new" system, the dakkarant would average 16 hits!!!
That's assuming Brainleech Devourers will remain 6 shot weapons. It wouldn't surprise me if they dropped to 3 shots each as the old rules seemed to be written with the assumption they would always come in pairs and regular Devourers have 3 shots each...
That said, I'm more intrigued with the change to blasts. Harpies suddenly look rather attractive as damage dealers with 2D3 Venom Cannon Shots or 2D6 Stranglethorn Shots. Granted, with fliers having their own force-org chart they might have to compete with flying Tyrants, depending on whether the new edition has mixed role units like Age of Sigmar.
jy2 wrote: Carnifexes will probably inflict D6dmg in cc.
Tyrants maybe D3 dmg in cc.
Regular grubs 1 dmg.
I doubt it, as all of the damage values have been tied to weapons and I can't see Scything Talons doing multiple damage based on how ubiquitous they are. That said, I could see Boneswords doing D3 damage (D6 paired) and Crushing Claws doing D6. Curious to see what Rending Claws end up doing too, since in Shadow War they have a -3 AP (-2 base and -1 for their wielders being S4) and allow rerolling to wound rolls.
Also speaking of Shadow War, they added Devourers to the biomorph list for 40 points.
Spoiler:
If it's anything like Sigmar, there will be less weapon options and each unit will get its own unique attack form. That's why I am thinking that each unit will have its own unique damage type as opposed to having common shared Tyranid weaponry. For example, a Tyrant scything talons won't do the same damage as a hormagant scything talon. Rather, hormagant scything talons may be called hormie talons and do base 1 dmg whereas Hive Tyrant scything talons may be called Tyrant claws or something and do a base D3 damage.
Of course this is just speculation on my part, based on how Age of Sigmar is currently.
As for twin-linked devourers, it is possible for the number of shots to go down. However, from what GW are saying (i.e. Land Raider crusaders are going to be beasts with their twin-linked shooting), I am thinking that they won't nerf the number of shots of current GW units.
I take that to mean you didn't write the Tyranid focus article? Lame.
shadowfinder wrote: The Lord of Chancge has 18 wounds. this bodes well for Flyrants I would think.
Depends though, the Lord of Change's new model is much bigger than the Flyrant. I'm kinda expecting it to sit around 9 wounds, since the two 60mm units we have seen so far have had 8 (Dreadnaught) and 9 (Guilliman) wounds respectively. I still suspect the Flying Tyrant will end up its own unit entry though, since they went to the trouble of making flyers their own battlefield role...
pinecone77 wrote: sounds pretty good, that would mean that on Average, you could tank 4 Las Cannon shots (14 body avg) not Too shabby.
I just hope they,1) make most, to All of our bugs Useful, and 2) make Nid'Zilla! a viable strategy again.
I agree, though it doesn't look good for 'nidzilla at the present moment. More wounds are welcome, but it looks like they are going to be taking a lot more wounds too, from both heavy guns and S4 (which now wounds on 5's instead - barring a toughness increase which seems unlikely).
I agree, though it doesn't look good for 'nidzilla at the present moment. More wounds are welcome, but it looks like they are going to be taking a lot more wounds too, from both heavy guns and S4 (which now wounds on 5's instead - barring a toughness increase which seems unlikely).
It still is an increase in survivability against most things with the exception of heavy anti-vehicle weapons like Lascannons.
So with the new summoning rules I'm thinking our Tervigons will need to save points to buy units to spit out rather than a random roll alowing you to make units for the need rather than just plain gaunts. Fighting high toughness spawn a brood with poison, need cannon fodder spawn a max # brood with no upgrades, need fast movement spawn homigaunts (hopefully).
I take that to mean you didn't write the Tyranid focus article? Lame.
What focus article are you talking about? Can you provide a link please? If you mean this thread, it was started more than 3 years ago and is a community effort from many Tyranid players on this thread. If you're talking about me personally writing on this thread, then no, I haven't been writing at all recently. So whatever article you are talking about, no, it isn't from me.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Timeshadow wrote: So with the new summoning rules I'm thinking our Tervigons will need to save points to buy units to spit out rather than a random roll alowing you to make units for the need rather than just plain gaunts. Fighting high toughness spawn a brood with poison, need cannon fodder spawn a max # brood with no upgrades, need fast movement spawn homigaunts (hopefully).
Tervigons will be unplayable in the new edition. Get ready to see a lot of tervigons on sale on ebay.
Timeshadow wrote:So with the new summoning rules I'm thinking our Tervigons will need to save points to buy units to spit out rather than a random roll alowing you to make units for the need rather than just plain gaunts. Fighting high toughness spawn a brood with poison, need cannon fodder spawn a max # brood with no upgrades, need fast movement spawn homigaunts (hopefully).
I'm not sure. The summoning system looks like it was directly ported from Age of Sigmar, but even there I know there are some abilities that allow for new units to be created without needing points set aside for them, though they are rare. The Tervigon has always had a link with Termagants, I can't see them removing that and making it a generic summon point, though it could perhaps be changed to replenish existing squads rather than create new units.
On a related note, I could see them changing Trygon tunnel rule to work akin to the Flesh-Eater Court Courtiers (if I remember correctly, when they arrive they bring along a unit of Ghouls or Horrors). Assuming the rule stays of course.
jy2 wrote:
What focus article are you talking about? Can you provide a link please? If you mean this thread, it was started more than 3 years ago and is a community effort from many Tyranid players on this thread. If you're talking about me personally writing on this thread, then no, I haven't been writing at all recently. So whatever article you are talking about, no, it isn't from me.
The Warhammer community page has had some articles written by tournament playtesters that preview some of the changes that will be coming in 8th for each army (most recent one was Chaos Daemons if I recall correct - Dark Eldar are due tomorrow). The Tyranid preview hasn't been put up yet, so no one knows who wrote it at this time.
Regarding summoning in Sigmar, currently in Matched Play battles (which is the standard that current Sigmar tournaments run), you cannot "setup" a new unit on the table without reserving points for it. However, certain units/powers can "replenish" an existing squad (that hasn't been wiped out completely) with more models as long as that doesn't take the unit above its original starting size.
Hopefully, the tervigon has both the option to setup a new unit as well as to replenish an existing one. Barring that (or a drastic drop in points or big increase in abilities), I don't see the tervigon being used all that much in the new edition. But we'll see what the previews will say.
jy2 wrote:
What focus article are you talking about? Can you provide a link please? If you mean this thread, it was started more than 3 years ago and is a community effort from many Tyranid players on this thread. If you're talking about me personally writing on this thread, then no, I haven't been writing at all recently. So whatever article you are talking about, no, it isn't from me.
The Warhammer community page has had some articles written by tournament playtesters that preview some of the changes that will be coming in 8th for each army (most recent one was Chaos Daemons if I recall correct - Dark Eldar are due tomorrow). The Tyranid preview hasn't been put up yet, so no one knows who wrote it at this time.
Indeed, sorry I wasn't more clear. Initially when they started those articles I figured it would be a different person writing each one and JY is one of the most prominent Tyranid players, but it looks like just Reece and Frankie are doing them (which is fine)
Yeah, recently, I've been playing a lot more Age of Sigmar than I have 40K. But with 8th looming, I'm starting to pay more attention to 40K again. I may even start writing again once the new edition comes out.
And you know what is the cool thing? With Sigmar, you can assault after these special types of deployment. I expect 40K to be the same, though it would be a rather long 9" charge (but with Fleet, it'll probably get to re-roll its charge).
And you know what is the cool thing? With Sigmar, you can assault after these special types of deployment. I expect 40K to be the same, though it would be a rather long 9" charge (but with Fleet, it'll probably get to re-roll its charge).
If you read the article this came in, it clarifies that the Trygon (and the accompanying unit) can indeed charge from this tunneling DS! I'm thinking big units of melee warriors, clumps of Hormas, or devilgaunts will each be solid bets. Might even make Warriors viable, and gives a normal Trygon some accompanying Synapse. I've done some test deploys and you can fit a whole 30 gaunts or 9 warriors (at least on 40mms) within 3" of a Trygon base, so unit size shouldn't be a great concern.
The more exciting part is that this likely means charge from reserves for a good many of our units - I'm thinking Lictors, Raveners and Genes almost certainly, and perhaps Spores, Rippers, and stuff coming out of the T-Cyte. Gargs, Shrikes and Fliers I am unsure will retain a DS-esque rule. I wouldn't be surprised to see Lictors get a 6" setup and AG make us add one to move/run/charge distances now, or something similar. In any event, am mega-hyped for the charging from reserves Nid armies of the future, especially if Mucolids remain troops so we can fill out a big detachment with ease and null deploy.
Man I hope I can start using Tyranid how they should be used. In close combat with immense scything talons. I want to use more carnifex with talons, more swarmlord, more hive tyrant with talons. :(
As much as I'd hate to say it, but with 8th coming up, it's probably time to retire this thread and to start a whole new one once 8th officially comes out. It may also be time for someone else to carry the torch here on dakka, at least to get things started enough for the new thread to eventually become self-sustaining.
jy2 wrote: As much as I'd hate to say it, but with 8th coming up, it's probably time to retire this thread and to start a whole new one once 8th officially comes out. It may also be time for someone else to carry the torch here on dakka, at least to get things started enough for the new thread to eventually become self-sustaining.
The problem is finding a person whose voice actually carries weight around here for the Tyranid community. There hasn't been much in the way of a professional crew for the army in any recent times beyond yourself. I'm a history buff and critical analyst for Nids, but I don't really follow the comp crowd as much as some do. There are probably enough old timers around to come up with a panel though. The trick is just getting personalities to collaborate.
One thing I'm worried about is having to keep track of 15 different versions of each weapon. But right now my thoughts are that the quality of tyranids right now is gong to be totally reliant on what synapse and instinctive behavior do. If their streamline everything approach is taken, I expect every IB to end up as what current Feed is. Something ridiculous like "if out of synapse lose d6-ld models." Or "d6 in morale test always a 6".
Currently in prepare for the worst mode right now. GW has a pretty linear record with Tyranid updates. And that has been they get worse.
I am cautiously optimistic about Synapse. They seem to be simplifying things and so far they look fairly balanced so if there is a big downside to Synapse then there will be a big benefit as well.
And it looks like they get at least 4 attacks from the "destroy a knight in a single lucky round of combat."
Another important development is the Super Heavy Detachment, which has the restriction of units from the same faction. So, we've seen 4 (?) of the 14 detachments, so I'm willing to bet there are specific FOCs that restrict to faction and give a hefty command point bonus, which will give you plenty of benefit from your faction specific stratagems.
This makes m beyond happy. Trygon went super heavy again like back in the day.
Hopefully it is not a Lord of war but it maybe now.
Looks like we have a lot of new things coming to use in old packaging.
Trygons are CC monsters again. No more getting killed by dreadnaughts like in 7th.
jy2 wrote: As much as I'd hate to say it, but with 8th coming up, it's probably time to retire this thread and to start a whole new one once 8th officially comes out. It may also be time for someone else to carry the torch here on dakka, at least to get things started enough for the new thread to eventually become self-sustaining.
The problem is finding a person whose voice actually carries weight around here for the Tyranid community. There hasn't been much in the way of a professional crew for the army in any recent times beyond yourself. I'm a history buff and critical analyst for Nids, but I don't really follow the comp crowd as much as some do. There are probably enough old timers around to come up with a panel though. The trick is just getting personalities to collaborate.
I don't think it'll be that big of a deal. As long as we had someone to keep the first post updated(if we do the reviews and tactics again anyway) it shouldn't matter.
StarHunter25 wrote: But right now my thoughts are that the quality of tyranids right now is gong to be totally reliant on what synapse and instinctive behavior do. If their streamline everything approach is taken, I expect every IB to end up as what current Feed is. Something ridiculous like "if out of synapse lose d6-ld models." Or "d6 in morale test always a 6".
I'm thinking it will probably revert to something similar to 5th (Feed = must charge, Lurk = must move to cover), though it also wouldn't surprise me if they completely threw out instinctive behavior and simply used it as a keyword to differentiate from synapse organisms. I doubt they will keep the tables and they already stated moral tests could represent casualties from psychic feedback (ala Dawn of War II).
Also nice to see a bit more information on Trygons. Between the damage buff and the fixing of the tunnel, it seems like they will be one of the more improved units with the new edition.
jy2 wrote: I'd expect trygons and carnifexes to do D6 damage in close combat. Trygon will probably have 4-5 Att whereas the carnifex 3.
I would hope the Carnifex had at least 4 attacks, and a Trygon feels like it should have at least 6. Hitting on 4+ is bad enough, they don't need to also have so few attacks =/.
I'm so hyped right now! Seems like Tyranids really got the boost they needed! It seems to me like we got a pretty safe first turn charge if we bring a trygon and a swarmlord. Just bring as many genestealers as we can fit within 3" of the trygon, and 9" from an enemy unit, use "hive commander" on the genestealers that lets them move 8" in the shooting phase. Thats awesome, especially if you read the stats on genestealers.
If all Nids at their current level prove to be the "wounded as all hell" version in the new edition, I'm going to be a happy camper. Taking a hit to the Movement, Strength and Attacks is a much better alternative than losing WS and BS. Also shows GW is cool with bouncing around what stat gets hit. My fear was a Tyrannofex or Dakkafex ending up shooting worse than Orks in lategame.
Having Stealers go into Combat at range 8+d6+8+2d6+1 is scary to say the least, and having additional ones pop up with a Trygon, that's almost better than current GSC Cult Ambush, with the almost only coming from Obj saturation. I'm going to interested to see if GSC will have a place in my army at all or if the horde of Purestrains is going to come back home.
Also.. Wow at the speed of a Swarmlord.. Now the real question is how will Tyrant Guard work in the new ruleset
They made mention of Tyrant guard on the latest Q&A. Body guard units will be able to tank wounds that nearby HQ units suffer, I'd assume on a roll of 'x+'. I was wondering what my sword and board lychguard would do now, but they still have their purpose!
I think trygons will be big in 8th. Shooty armies need to shield their most expensive units with cheap troops. Tyrgons let's us get in close from all sides real fast.
Also.. Wow at the speed of a Swarmlord.. Now the real question is how will Tyrant Guard work in the new ruleset
They made mention of Tyrant guard on the latest Q&A. Body guard units will be able to tank wounds that nearby HQ units suffer, I'd assume on a roll of 'x+'. I was wondering what my sword and board lychguard would do now, but they still have their purpose!
The question is not if Tyrant guard can take wounds. They will. Ablative wounds is their job. The question is their M attribute. Will they be able to keep up?
Maybe the tyrant guard will have some rule that allows them to piggy back on the m of a tyranid character they are protecting and move when they move, but otherwise have a reletively slow m for nids so if they get separated from a character they just really diminish.
Dunno. They will need to be quick to be worth a damn.
Swarm Lord is mega fast.. I am wondering how the Guard will keep up
There are a lot of possibilities, though the most simple one would be to just use Hive Commander on the Guard to sling them up the board and run/advance with Swarmy until you're in range to assault. Just because he has the potential to move 18'' in a single turn doesn't mean it wise to always do so.
Lance845 wrote: Maybe the tyrant guard will have some rule that allows them to piggy back on the m of a tyranid character they are protecting and move when they move, but otherwise have a reletively slow m for nids so if they get separated from a character they just really diminish.
Dunno. They will need to be quick to be worth a damn.
Anyone think Swarmy with t6 and a 3+ save is underwhelming defensively?
Sure we havent seen his special rules, he might have an inv but seeing as how that new Primaris captain is t5, 6w and a 3+, what then are the marine special characters or chapter masters going to have Isnt Swarmy supposed to be the absolute pinnacle of Nid evolution - both offensively and defensively.
Ratius wrote: Anyone think Swarmy with t6 and a 3+ save is underwhelming defensively?
Sure we havent seen his special rules, he might have an inv but seeing as how that new Primaris captain is t5, 6w and a 3+, what then are the marine special characters or chapter masters going to have Isnt Swarmy supposed to be the absolute pinnacle of Nid evolution - both offensively and defensively.
He has a 5+ invulnerable save, improved to 4+ in melee. Plus he is a psyker and Catalyst still exists so add a 5+ FNP on top of that.
Oh and 12 wounds.
As for Space Marine characters or Chapter Masters, Guilliman, the pinnacle of the Ultramarine stats, is equal or inferior to the Swarmlord in most stats except BS and saves, so I doubt the others will be anywhere close to the Swarmlord.
I expect the Primaris Captains to be as good as it comes in terms of stats, and superior to most Chapter Masters or special characters.
I would imagine the only way to play Swarmlord will be to pod him in and use hive commander and other deep-strikers to seriously threat overload. He is paper thin for the (assumed) massive points cost. Do the math on a couple lascannons hitting him at D6 wounds a pop or some rapid fire plasma. Poof!
I have a feeling the best monstrous creatures are going to be ones with 9 wounds or that are super cheap and can be spammed. A heavy point units like Swarmlord simply go down too easily.
Could be wrong, but my guess based on what is known.
It's a fair assumption to make, but it also depends on how much Tyrant Guard cost and how fast they are. If they move fast enough to keep up with Swarmy then you have alot of ablative wounds.
Plasma is not great against the Swarmlod, poor range and single damage. The overcharged mode is considerably more dangerous, but it is risky.
The Swarmlord needs 27 normal plasma hits to be killed, 40.5 if FNP is active. Halve those numbers for the overcharged mode (13.5 and 20.25)
That's a massive improvement over the 7.5 hits (11.25 with FNP) needed for the current Swarmlord.
As for Lascannons, you need 7.7 Lascannon hits to kill it, 11.6 with FNP activated. Again an improvement over the 6 (9 with FNP) hits needed against the current Swarmlord,.
Of course now the Swarmlord will suffer damage degradation, but the only problematic one is its movement.
Tyran wrote: Curious that no one has mentioned that with the changes to Assault weapons, we can run (Advance) and shoot with a -1 to hit.
That's because we have no idea what our weapons will actually be yet. Likely still assault. But whos to say? We haven't seen a single nid weapon profile yet.
A friendly reminder, that maybe Swarmlord's stats might seem underwhelming if calculating for 7 Lascannon shots to the teeth. But remember new rules stating how characters work.
Characters are untargetable UNLESS they are the closest model to the target.
Swarmy should be quite comfortable behind gargoyles + gaunts teheheh.....MWAHAHAHAHA!
Posted this over in the news and rumors thread, but thought it had a lot of impact on us as well. I saw it listed in the datasheet for a leaked Tau flyer:
The "hard to hit" rule, previously causing all models to snapshoot when they shot at flyers/fmc, etc, has been changed to a -1 to hit modifier, and I can imagine that this is the case for all flyers and FMC.
While I was hoping for more than that, it makes sense because the amounts of wounds have been increased for flyers and such, which wound have led to flyers and FMC being stupidly durable if it was a -2 or -3 to hit modifier.
What this means for us is that while wings are probably still good at helping us get to combat faster, if we still can't charge when we move upwards of 12", then I don't really see the benefit (because I also think that assault-based hive tyrants will probably be better than shooty flyrants, but that is still a bit of a hunch). Especially when the tyrant guard can tank wounds for the tyrant (who is moving what looks like 9" without the wings), walking seems pretty beneficial. Would really suck if those dudes slowed the tyrant back down to 6" move or something like that though due to a small range on the ability to tank wounds...
luke1705 wrote: Posted this over in the news and rumors thread, but thought it had a lot of impact on us as well. I saw it listed in the datasheet for a leaked Tau flyer:
The "hard to hit" rule, previously causing all models to snapshoot when they shot at flyers/fmc, etc, has been changed to a -1 to hit modifier, and I can imagine that this is the case for all flyers and FMC.
While I was hoping for more than that, it makes sense because the amounts of wounds have been increased for flyers and such, which wound have led to flyers and FMC being stupidly durable if it was a -2 or -3 to hit modifier.
What this means for us is that while wings are probably still good at helping us get to combat faster, if we still can't charge when we move upwards of 12", then I don't really see the benefit (because I also think that assault-based hive tyrants will probably be better than shooty flyrants, but that is still a bit of a hunch). Especially when the tyrant guard can tank wounds for the tyrant (who is moving what looks like 9" without the wings), walking seems pretty beneficial. Would really suck if those dudes slowed the tyrant back down to 6" move or something like that though due to a small range on the ability to tank wounds...
I have the feeling we will be able to charge to make up for the lost in durability.
luke1705 wrote: Posted this over in the news and rumors thread, but thought it had a lot of impact on us as well. I saw it listed in the datasheet for a leaked Tau flyer:
The "hard to hit" rule, previously causing all models to snapshoot when they shot at flyers/fmc, etc, has been changed to a -1 to hit modifier, and I can imagine that this is the case for all flyers and FMC.
While I was hoping for more than that, it makes sense because the amounts of wounds have been increased for flyers and such, which wound have led to flyers and FMC being stupidly durable if it was a -2 or -3 to hit modifier.
What this means for us is that while wings are probably still good at helping us get to combat faster, if we still can't charge when we move upwards of 12", then I don't really see the benefit (because I also think that assault-based hive tyrants will probably be better than shooty flyrants, but that is still a bit of a hunch). Especially when the tyrant guard can tank wounds for the tyrant (who is moving what looks like 9" without the wings), walking seems pretty beneficial. Would really suck if those dudes slowed the tyrant back down to 6" move or something like that though due to a small range on the ability to tank wounds...
As the Helldrake Doesn't have 'Hard to hit' in its rules I would suspect the Tyranid Flyers not to get it as well, but this means we are also likely not have to worry about minimum move distance..
Without looking at all of the rules, it would appear a Helldrake can move and charge (30" move) so it looks like CC Flyrants may well be a thing again (I need to fix mine)
luke1705 wrote: Posted this over in the news and rumors thread, but thought it had a lot of impact on us as well. I saw it listed in the datasheet for a leaked Tau flyer:
The "hard to hit" rule, previously causing all models to snapshoot when they shot at flyers/fmc, etc, has been changed to a -1 to hit modifier, and I can imagine that this is the case for all flyers and FMC.
While I was hoping for more than that, it makes sense because the amounts of wounds have been increased for flyers and such, which wound have led to flyers and FMC being stupidly durable if it was a -2 or -3 to hit modifier.
What this means for us is that while wings are probably still good at helping us get to combat faster, if we still can't charge when we move upwards of 12", then I don't really see the benefit (because I also think that assault-based hive tyrants will probably be better than shooty flyrants, but that is still a bit of a hunch). Especially when the tyrant guard can tank wounds for the tyrant (who is moving what looks like 9" without the wings), walking seems pretty beneficial. Would really suck if those dudes slowed the tyrant back down to 6" move or something like that though due to a small range on the ability to tank wounds...
The Heldrake doesn't have "hard-to-hit" and it is a Flyer. Based on that and other evidence, from what I can understand only certain flyers will have a rule like that. Ergo, I can see a Flying Hive Tryant not having that rule, but something like a Harpy very well might.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also from the 8th ed thread.
Stranglethorn Cannon does d6 shots. for every 10 models in a unit, the wielder gets +1 to hit. range 36"; S 7; AP -1; D 2
Heavy Venom Cannon: range 36"; D3 shots *if i remember right* S 9; AP -2; D d3
Adrenal glands add 1 to advance and charge range. Toxin sacs: rolls of 6 make 2d
Rupture Cannon: S 10; AP -1; D d3; heavy 2. If it hits with both shots, they get AP -4; D d6. And if Tyrannofex stands still, all his weapons can fire twice
Tyrannofex has T 8; 14 or 16 W
Tyrannocyte can transport 20 infantry models or 1 monstrous Creature with max 14 wounds
Zoanthropes: Warp Blast has become a special rule that makes smite spell do d3 additional mortal wounds *looks like all psykers have smite* Neurothrope makes zoanthropes regain d3 wounds when they kill with smite. Zoanthropes also cost 40 points now. if the unit is 4+ models, they can cast 2 psychic powers
Maleceptor has T8; 14 wounds; armor save 3+. You can chose to use its own psychic power and it targets a number of enemy units depending on how many wounds it still has. Roll 1 dice for the enemy units: on a 1 nothing happens. on a roll of 2+ the enemy unit suffers a mortal wound
Trygon: T 6; 14 W; movement 8
Toxicrene: T 8; 14 W; 3+ armor save. One ability it has makes you roll a d6 for every enemy model within 1 inch. on a roll of 6, the enemy suffers a mortal wound
Lance845 wrote: Anyone notice the upgrade is called "Scything wings" for 13 pts?
I imagine it is a combination of scything talons and wings for the shrikes.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also another compilation:
Tervigon M8" W14 S7 T8 Save3+, can either create a 10 fleshborer Termagaunt unit (you need to keep the points for them) OR re-add fleshborer Termagaunt models to an existing unit >Carnifex >67 points >M7" WS4+ S6 T7 W8 A4 3+ >It doesn't degrade >if charge does mortal wound on a 4+ >Crushing claws are Sx2 AP-3 damage 3 >Monstrous Scything Talons S: User AP-3 damage 3 >Bonemace S8 Ap-1 d3 damage. >If with 2 weapons +1 attacks >2 Scything talons reroll 1 to hit.
Haruspex
S7 (degrades) T8 W13 If it kills a model it can do an extra attack and heal 1 wound. Every wound he takes does a mortal wound on the enemy on a 6 (I suppose it's acid blood) If killed roll a dice, on a 6 it does 3 mortal wound on an enemy unit within 3" Digging claws Sx2 AP-3 damage d6
Venomthrope -1 to be hit for infantry.
Lictor WS2+ S6 W4 A3 5+ +2 armour save in cover, -1 to be hit can infiltrate at 9" and can reroll charge the turn it shows up Gargoyles move 12 Shrikes move 10 Broodlord HQ Mucolid spore FA Devourers with Brainleech are 18" S6 Assualt 3 Boneswords AP -2 +1 attack if you've got a pair Powers: 1. Catalyst basically 5+ FnP 2. -1 to hit and LD on enemy unit 3. Move and fire heavy/advance and fire with assualt with no modifiers, advance and still charge Shadow in the warp psykers within 8 get -1 LD, within 12 of HT/Swarmlord
>mawloc can deploy up to 1" away from enemies but 6" away from other mawlocs >enemies within 2" get damage according to a d6 >1: nothing; 2-3: 1 mortal; 4-5: d3 mortals; 6: 3 mortals >can't charge in the same turn; can reenter reserves like before
I am Real happy to see the Carnifex stats...if they hold up, a herd of Twin Scything Carnifexen will be a terror. I guess Mawloc got smeared" just because" they are so prevelent in the current Meta. But Trygons look better, so it may be a push overall. I think I'll still want a Mawloc for Gunlines, maybe Two. But if I can pop up a MC, and a Brood of Stealers instead....I have few complaints.
I don't know abot Zoeys, I guess a "double Smite" is pretty boss...time will tell. I'll need to digest all the changes before I can start madly writting lists though. The new non formation thing is still not completely clear to me. And the exact benefits of command points as well, is it a "thing" to try spamming them?
I do think the all heavy detachment full of Carnifexen will be a useful building block.
Looks like Tyranid monsters bring lots of D6 Damage weapons to the fray, it seems like they are really built for crushing other armies' heavy units now. Even a Tervigon - i.e. a classic support monster - has 3 Strength 14 AP -3 D6 Damage attacks when you take the Massive Crushing Claws, though the -1 to-hit means it does hit on a 5+ even at full health.
Very interesting stuff. I'm actually digging the Mawloc unlike some of you guys, EDIT: oh it's only 2" range, ah, not so good then. It seems like it will only be able to do its special attack twice in a game now as opposed to three times in a game, but the attack could potentially do more damage if your opponent has multiple units near each other. Looks like it will be at least decent in combat in subsequent turns too and is harder to kill than prior, so that's nice.
Also, I find it hilarious that the larger Tyranid monsters now explode...seriously, each one has a similar explodes rule to the tanks we've seen. I think that's great.
But yeah...Tyranid Warriors. Wow. And Shadow in the Warp actually being useful again? What is this, 2003?
I really like the new Zoanthropes, their rules make perfect sense in the new game. They basically do the exact same thing that Magnus does.
Toxicrene might be absolutely deadly. If I'm reading this right, it can tentacle fun in shooting and close combat. Doing 6+d6ap-1 Dam d3 attacks that reroll to wound. Yeesh.
So, do I have this right that you can now mix Tyranids and Genestealer Cult units in the SAME detachment?
Considering:
* Genestealer Cults have BOTH the faction keywords 'Genestealer Cult' and 'Tyranids'
* Detachments state "All units must be from the same Faction"
Polkadragon wrote: So, do I have this right that you can now mix Tyranids and Genestealer Cult units in the SAME detachment?
Considering:
* Genestealer Cults have BOTH the faction keywords 'Genestealer Cult' and 'Tyranids'
* Detachments state "All units must be from the same Faction"
Awesome if true!
This is true but we don't know what drawback it will have.
Apparently there are benefits to having the entire detachment made up of the more specific faction keyword.
My suspicion is it will be a multiplier for command points. Like... if you fill up a Battalion Detachment (3 command points) and it is filled with only units that are both faction Tyranid and Faction <Hive Fleet>. then you will in fact get 6 command points.
Likewise you could fill that detachment with all Faction Dark Angles and get the same or you could fill it with Imperium and take Sisters of Battle, Dark Angles and Ad Mech and end up with only the 3.
Polkadragon wrote: So, do I have this right that you can now mix Tyranids and Genestealer Cult units in the SAME detachment?
Considering:
* Genestealer Cults have BOTH the faction keywords 'Genestealer Cult' and 'Tyranids'
* Detachments state "All units must be from the same Faction"
Awesome if true!
This is true but we don't know what drawback it will have.
Apparently there are benefits to having the entire detachment made up of the more specific faction keyword.
My suspicion is it will be a multiplier for command points. Like... if you fill up a Battalion Detachment (3 command points) and it is filled with only units that are both faction Tyranid and Faction <Hive Fleet>. then you will in fact get 6 command points.
Likewise you could fill that detachment with all Faction Dark Angles and get the same or you could fill it with Imperium and take Sisters of Battle, Dark Angles and Ad Mech and end up with only the 3.
Yeah, and also a big one: you lose Cult Ambush if your detachment isn't exclusive to GC :(
Timeshadow wrote: So with our home tyrants having 10w now they are protected as a character now right? If so that's a new layer of protection which will be nice.
Timeshadow wrote: So with our home tyrants having 10w now they are protected as a character now right? If so that's a new layer of protection which will be nice.
That only applies to 9 wounds or less.
But you can pass wounds to Tyrant guards on a 2+
dont freak me out here. didnt the character spotlight say its 10 wounds AND below?
Timeshadow wrote: So with our home tyrants having 10w now they are protected as a character now right? If so that's a new layer of protection which will be nice.
That only applies to 9 wounds or less.
But you can pass wounds to Tyrant guards on a 2+
dont freak me out here. didnt the character spotlight say its 10 wounds AND below?
If it said that then it is wrong as we have seen the core rules.
Because your foe may try to kill your Synapse so for 2000 I'd want between 6 and 7...so...6 or more.
But...it does violate a "meta" rule; "Tyranids are not allowed nice things" 
I'd run it differant, but that is "style" I would swap in Mawloc or two, and spend the extra points on some more Troops/Synapse (likely one Brood of Warriors with a Cannon, and some Gaunts)
But T5 Warriors would solve So many issues... 
I don;t like it much, but massive fire power is a "thing" including lots of "D". 
The Icon of the Cult Ascendant still needs to be moved to one of the Iconwards though.
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