47145
Post by: Tsilber
tetrisphreak wrote:They state they ignore cover because they're shooting style attacks triggered in melee. Since only melee attacks inherently ignore cover but shooting attacks do not, the addition was added for clarification. So, no it's not superfluous - it actually shows some forethought in the rule.
rigeld2 wrote:You can't take cover saves from CC wounds. The spore explosion isn't a CC wound.
OH right on, thanks for clarification. I guess thats why they also state it for the Acid blood. Got it.
73775
Post by: stormoffires
Anyone try the pack of 30 termagants outflank with a Prime thats bonesword/lashwhip? I did a 30gaunt flank, 10 with dev. my word that was brutal, and a massive tarpit, then had a tervigon troop in the backfield with only the gaunts it spawns anywhere near it.
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
 Tarnag wrote: PrinceRaven wrote:Newtype Zero wrote:
Wait, what? A Tervigon can't be a Warlord because it doesn't have (character) as it's type?
1. I've never heard of that ruleing before that your Warlord MUST be a character
2. If that is the case, why even put it in the HQ slot GW?
1. "Whn choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. It is is always the HQ choice character with the highest Leadership." - Very first line on page 111
2. You have a second HQ slot, you know.
So if you were to only take Tervigons as an HQ choice, you wouldn't be able to have a Warlord? That doesn't make sense, that almost comes out as an advantage because you're not giving up the victory point.
In the same way bringing 1700 points to a 1500 point game gives you an advantage...
61535
Post by: Noctem
Having a really hard time deciding if I should use Mawloc or Trygon in my list. I only have one box right now so it'd be a lone Mawloc or Trygon in my list, along with 3 melee fexes... =(
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
Magnetise it.
61535
Post by: Noctem
I know that's a possibility lol I'm saying if I didn't. Not everyone wants to magnetize!
14732
Post by: Lord Scythican
On the subject of tervigon as a general....
I thought codex trumped brb? If so then tervigon cant be a character because the codex says it is not...
59251
Post by: Dozer Blades
I tried the Deathleaper this afternoon... Got shredded by the Tau missiles that ignore cover and don't need LoS. I see it only good as a backfield unit vs. Tau... Very pricy too—should have brought Hive Guard instead.
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
 Lord Scythican wrote:On the subject of tervigon as a general....
I thought codex trumped brb? If so then tervigon cant be a character because the codex says it is not...
In this case it's most recent rules trumps older rules, so yes, it isn't a character any more.
61243
Post by: Jakobokaj
This RAW vs RAI nonsense is stupid take it to YMDC. And arguing RAI unless YOU wrote those rules is slowed except maybe in glaring cases lie the double negative I the far sight supplement. Sadly this isn't one of those cases.
3330
Post by: Kirasu
barnowl wrote:
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Ignore the raw nonsense and just play it as intended
it would be one thing if the tervigon was never a Character... but when the 6th edition BRB came out.. it made tervigons a CH. now suddenly its not a CH? bullshiz im waiting for the first FAQ. if a store/turny tells me i cant play my list cool im off to play friendlyer games then.
Is this seriously a real response? No offense but why in the world would the BRB which was produced to be A SUMMARY of units in the *Last* book have any relevance when the new book came out? You do realize that pieces of paper do not automatically update themselves when new information comes out. Your argument is like if you're in a science class using a book from the 1930s and refuse to accept new information from newer books?
100% of the entries in the BRB that relate to tyranids are VOID now, just like every OTHER entry for an army that received a 6th edition codex already. Come on, really? You're just going to play as you see fit because you don't like the changes?
Tervigon is not a character, and it needs no FAQ because the current codex is the only rules that apply. By your bizarre logic you can't even field an exocrine or a crone because it doesn't have an entry in the BRB and by that note are you using the statlines for EVERY unit directly from the BRB? You know that "character" is a unit stat, so you might as well use all the old stats and ignore the new book.
52446
Post by: Abandon
Just played in my first tourny ever yesterday with this 6th ed Nid list:
Dual Tryon P + Dual Flyrant (1200)
1 Hive Tyrant
-Wings
- TL Devourer w/ BLW
- TL Devourer w/ BLW
-Hive Commander
-
-
1 Hive Tyrant
-Wings
- TL Devourer w/ BLW
- TL Devourer w/ BLW
-
-
2 Zoanthropes
10 Termigants
10 Termigants
1 Trygon Prime
-Miasma Cannon
-Toxin Sacs
1 Trygon Prime
-Reaper of Obliterax
Won 3 out of 3 games I played and finished 3rd place.
I played against
-An IG list that included 3 Vendettas with Lascannons
-Another nid list (never played vs nids before.... it's weird to be giving each other synapse lol)
-Chaos!
The battle with Chaos was a brutal and bloody Purge the Alien battle. One Trygon Prime crushing a Soul Grinder while the other was laid low by the rending claws of Daemonettes and so the exchange went until it came down to Warlord vs Warlord, two FMC's, Flyrant vs. Daemon Prince... each half dead already. It was the bottom of turn six when the Daemon had just brought down the Trygon Prime wielding The Reaper of Obliterax and was caught flat-footed by the Flyrant who fell upon on him with his Devourer and letting out a Psychic Scream struck down the Daemon Prince on a large piece of rocky terrain ..."Until at last, I threw down my enemy and smote his ruin upon the mountainside." ...it was EPIC!!!(had to quote it, not only did it fit but I won a Lord of the Rings game) I bought the Chaos player a drink afterwards for a great ending to fun day of 40k. (He actually placed first in the tourny even though I tabled him in the last game)
Anyways, as far as the list went it seemed quite upfront and killy enough to make up for the minimal scoring units. The Miasma Cannon is awesome vs infantry as you would expect especially on a Trygon Prime that can DS extremely close to the enemy. The Reaper of Obliterax is a bit over priced IMO but it's hard to argue to much with Shred, ID on 6's, +1S and +3 initiative. The Trygon Primes themselves overall seemed quite good but can't stand alone and work best to complement other threats being presented at the same time. Two Flyrants and two Trygon Primes proved to be way to much for most armies to handle on turn two at 1200 points.
The Dakka Flyrants BS increase was a bit helpful as I regularly saw 10-12 hits from them(two more than it used to be) and their point drop was very helpful as well.
The Zoanthropes did prove themselves useful in all three games despite having to walk them across the field. Their's always some stragglers needing to be cleaned up, synapse needed for some point camping troops or even a turn one rush before my reserves can come in. Totally worth their points if you don't need the slots for venomthropes and in my case those would not have been able to keep up with my main attack force and would not have provided any backfield synapse so Zoanthropes was the better choice.
The point drop in termigants also was nice, In this case it was only a 20 point difference but that could mean Miasma Cannon or no Miasma Cannon and that cannon did a lot of damage each game, much more than it's points value so I'm not gonna scoff at the point change of the termigants. On that note, everything in this list saw a point reduction and had the same models been purchased from the 5th edition codex, they would have been 120 more points and at a 1200 limit, that makes a big difference. Nothing here got any real nerfs and the Flyrants got a buff also so it's a better army than it used to be and it cost less. Can't say I like this new codex but I can't say it's all bad either.
That's about it as far as the changes I've noticed in practice so far. Hope it helps.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
 Dozer Blades wrote:I tried the Deathleaper this afternoon... Got shredded by the Tau missiles that ignore cover and don't need LoS. I see it only good as a backfield unit vs. Tau... Very pricy too—should have brought Hive Guard instead.
...and this missile was fired as a snapshot right?
59251
Post by: Dozer Blades
Their missiles are multi shot and twin linked.
52446
Post by: Abandon
Just checking, not so familiar with Tau weaponry as I only play with one Tau player and he's been more into his Dark Eldar lately.
71426
Post by: bodazoka
What would be better?
A mix of 20 x devil gaunts and 10 x normal gaunt's outflanking with a Prime. (roughly 350 points)
The above outflanking with out a prime and assuming I can get a flyrant in range. (roughly 200 point's but without the flexibility of guaranteed synapse)
A Tervigon outflanking and then creating X number of gaunt's (195 + X - the TMC + say.. 9 gaunt's shooting likely is not as powerful as any of the above?)
I do not have my codex on me so Im not sure which would be the best threat for the most efficient price..
52446
Post by: Abandon
Flyrants are to useful to be babysitters, I leave them flexable. Not to mention a single Flyrant has a high likelihood of death in the very near future. I'd say either the prime or the Tervigon or both in addition to the Flyrant.
If you go with two flyrants and a Trygon Prime you could fairly safely outflank the termigants by themselves but less than that would make me nervous regarding my tactical options.
56617
Post by: barnowl
Think I finally figured out a use for Haruspex's. S8 Armorbane will bust AV14 to AV15 just fine and the Acid blood + Fear makes it somewhat resistant to getting charged by what ever was in side said high AV.
It is does actually conform to it's fluff as a heavy armor/ building buster: "Buildings are smashed open, battle tanks torn asunder and the unfortunate prey sheltering inside hungrily devoured."
While it will get drowned by blob/horde units, anything that is relying on good Armor to save it will not like this thing. 1 HoW +1 (+2 with an AG) for the charge+ 3 base + tail with Rend for 5-6 attacks on the charge is not something say Centurions want to face. And you pretty much have to run it with the AG for Fleet or you wont get much use from it.
EDIT: Haruspex and Pyrovores seem like decent units for Stronghold missions.
74704
Post by: Naw
Before the horde codex updates everyone was guessing how the meta would change. Now we have an updated horde codex, but not quite what was expected. I guess a horde of monstrous creatures also count as a horde 
To an outside observer who has read these threads and a lot of batreps, this is how I feel:
Tau and Eldar are still up there alone. Chaos Daemons find a bad match up with the Tyranids now, could be that folks don't know how to take them. Necrons I haven't seen much in action, but they do what they always do, ie. try the last turn grab. That leaves SM and CSM then. Both seem somewhat ill-equipped to take out a large number of MC's.
71426
Post by: bodazoka
 Abandon wrote:Flyrants are to useful to be babysitters, I leave them flexable. Not to mention a single Flyrant has a high likelihood of death in the very near future. I'd say either the prime or the Tervigon or both in addition to the Flyrant.
If you go with two flyrants and a Trygon Prime you could fairly safely outflank the termigants by themselves but less than that would make me nervous regarding my tactical options.
I agree with you on that one, I don't like the idea of having to put my flyrant in a position to get synapse when I might not want him there.
It's so up in the air at the moment I think im just going to have to play test it.. using the Tervigon has upsides (not taking a HQ being a massive one!) but his point value is very prohibitive and he wont do as much damage as a prime + gaunts it's more annoyance than Alpha strike.
Using a prime + gaunt's is a good Alpha strike but it's one less Flyrant and the prime himself likely wont do much other than provide synapse.
Maybe.... I give my Flyrant that Norn crown (cheaper than an Alpha if I just want him for Synapse) and the primaris power then I am guaranteed to be in synapse and be able to move the Flyrant to where I want him..
47462
Post by: rigeld2
2 Flyrants both with HC, outflank a unit of warriors and a termagant squad?
Taking a risk with them not both coming in on the same side, but...
1567
Post by: felixcat
I'm still having a problem wrapping my head around the new codex. Synapse seems to be the biggest issue. I have designed a list yet to be tested.
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p280-a-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations
(bottom of the page)
Even with five sources of synapse a good Tau/Edar list can pretty much eliminate all of it by turn three, You have to hope you are in their face by then. I also do want to try Mawloc shenenigans but Lictors and Deathleaper are not that impressive.
37477
Post by: Battlesong
Newtype Zero wrote:
Wait, what? A Tervigon can't be a Warlord because it doesn't have (character) as it's type?
1. I've never heard of that ruleing before that your Warlord MUST be a character
2. If that is the case, why even put it in the HQ slot GW?
Yup, your warlord has to be an HQ character. I fully believe that it will be FAQ'd back into a character. This is just another example of the lazy copy/paste job this codex was.
33527
Post by: Niiai
I know the tervigon went up in price, but how bad it is?
If you buy 30 termagants you have already saved 30 points from the old list. If you buy devourers it is even cheaper as they went down in price. During 5th edition codex you did not take 30 termagants, but they still got better I would think.
The tervigon can take the thorax swarm.
It lost biomancy and 3 powers to select from, but catalys is better then many of the biomancy powers giving itself and another unit feel no pain.
The once who got hit hardest with the nerf bat is also the hive guard. Is the lost of 1 point in BS that bad? 5 point increase is not so big, you will never take more then 30, if even that many. The rest of the codex got slimmer so you can aford it.
67172
Post by: Deshkar
Played a few games, including one just a few hours ago.
TAC list A:
Flyrant w/ devs
Flyrant w/ devs
Zoey
Venomthrope
Tervigon
30 Termagants
3 Warriors w/ Barbed
Hive Crone
2 Carnifexes w/ devs
Exocrine
Exocrine
Bastion
TAC list B
Flyrant w/ devs
Flyrant w/ devs
Zoey
Zoey
Venomthrope
Tervigon
10 Termagants
30 Termagants
Hive Crone
Hive Crone
15 Gargoyles
3 Biovores
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion w/ comms relay
Fought a variety of armies. Won most of the time, but lost as well. Not an easy codex to play and plays really differently from the old one but aside from Taudar, everyone else's TAC lists didn't like to face 7-8+ MCs and 50+ non-Mcs. Against Taudar, I lost more than I won but even against them, I didn't felt steamrolled.
I think it's pretty important to still have at least one Tervigon in any army list, MC troop choice that can spawn troop is still very strong. Just remember to send your babies away from their mother.
33527
Post by: Niiai
The thing is if you spawn termagaunst turn 1 and 2 when there is nothing within the short range of the tervigon, depending on what you roll, you might be abel to "run" out of the 12" range in the shooting phase.
This can of cours get tricky if the table is cluttered or you roll a small runn number.
73775
Post by: stormoffires
 Niiai wrote:I know the tervigon went up in price, but how bad it is?
If you buy 30 termagants you have already saved 30 points from the old list. If you buy devourers it is even cheaper as they went down in price. During 5th edition codex you did not take 30 termagants, but they still got better I would think.
The tervigon can take the thorax swarm.
It lost biomancy and 3 powers to select from, but catalys is better then many of the biomancy powers giving itself and another unit feel no pain.
The once who got hit hardest with the nerf bat is also the hive guard. Is the lost of 1 point in BS that bad? 5 point increase is not so big, you will never take more then 30, if even that many. The rest of the codex got slimmer so you can aford it.
sir i dont think you know much about anything with nids....
the tervigon now rolls for powers and you need a 1 for catalyst, Also tervigon know hurts termagants upto 12in away.... also can not be your warlord, so you can not run 2 HQs of tervigons.
hive gaurd where nerfed to the point of being ineffective and take up a valuable elite spot. the rest of the dex did not get slimmer, several key models had a price increase. Also a loss of several other useful models.
25360
Post by: ductvader
 stormoffires wrote: Niiai wrote:I know the tervigon went up in price, but how bad it is?
If you buy 30 termagants you have already saved 30 points from the old list. If you buy devourers it is even cheaper as they went down in price. During 5th edition codex you did not take 30 termagants, but they still got better I would think.
The tervigon can take the thorax swarm.
It lost biomancy and 3 powers to select from, but catalys is better then many of the biomancy powers giving itself and another unit feel no pain.
The once who got hit hardest with the nerf bat is also the hive guard. Is the lost of 1 point in BS that bad? 5 point increase is not so big, you will never take more then 30, if even that many. The rest of the codex got slimmer so you can aford it.
sir i dont think you know much about anything with nids....
the tervigon now rolls for powers and you need a 1 for catalyst, Also tervigon know hurts termagants upto 12in away.... also can not be your warlord, so you can not run 2 HQs of tervigons.
hive gaurd where nerfed to the point of being ineffective and take up a valuable elite spot. the rest of the dex did not get slimmer, several key models had a price increase. Also a loss of several other useful models.
The book did in fact get "slimmer" After plugging in a bunch of my 5th Ed 2000 point lists I found that most of them are coming up around 1700-1800 pts in this book.
50379
Post by: zacharia
I know the tervigon went up in price, but how bad it is?
If you buy 30 termagants you have already saved 30 points from the old list. If you buy devourers it is even cheaper as they went down in price. During 5th edition codex you did not take 30 termagants, but they still got better I would think.
The tervigon can take the thorax swarm.
It lost biomancy and 3 powers to select from, but catalys is better then many of the biomancy powers giving itself and another unit feel no pain.
The once who got hit hardest with the nerf bat is also the hive guard. Is the lost of 1 point in BS that bad? 5 point increase is not so big, you will never take more then 30, if even that many. The rest of the codex got slimmer so you can aford it.
As well as the point increase, the requirement increase from 10 termagants to 30 termagants to take a tervigon as a troop and the loss of biomancy powers (well all brb but that was main loss) It also lost
1) starting with dominion and the option of choosing catalyst and/or onslaught in addion, effetively losing 2 powers and changing choice to random
2) The range of the backlash damaging termagants when it is killed has doubled from 6" to 12"
3) It no longer gives termagants within 6" adrenal glands/toxin sacks if the tervigon has them
4) Termagants within 6" can no longer use the tervigons leadership
Yes it was overpowered before, but that was mainly due to how cheap it was to take it as a troop, the increased requirement and point increase took care of that, the 4 extra nerfs in addition were uneeded, or at the very least not all 4.
25360
Post by: ductvader
Created a fairly powerful list.
It can obviously be toyed with and doesn't fit the internet's love for spam...but it's been proving to be pretty mean thus far.
HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants
ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope
HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine
1850/1850
73775
Post by: stormoffires
 ductvader wrote: stormoffires wrote: Niiai wrote:I know the tervigon went up in price, but how bad it is?
If you buy 30 termagants you have already saved 30 points from the old list. If you buy devourers it is even cheaper as they went down in price. During 5th edition codex you did not take 30 termagants, but they still got better I would think.
The tervigon can take the thorax swarm.
It lost biomancy and 3 powers to select from, but catalys is better then many of the biomancy powers giving itself and another unit feel no pain.
The once who got hit hardest with the nerf bat is also the hive guard. Is the lost of 1 point in BS that bad? 5 point increase is not so big, you will never take more then 30, if even that many. The rest of the codex got slimmer so you can aford it.
sir i dont think you know much about anything with nids....
the tervigon now rolls for powers and you need a 1 for catalyst, Also tervigon know hurts termagants upto 12in away.... also can not be your warlord, so you can not run 2 HQs of tervigons.
hive gaurd where nerfed to the point of being ineffective and take up a valuable elite spot. the rest of the dex did not get slimmer, several key models had a price increase. Also a loss of several other useful models.
The book did in fact get "slimmer" After plugging in a bunch of my 5th Ed 2000 point lists I found that most of them are coming up around 1700-1800 pts in this book.
yes any gants or fex lists will be smaller, heck even mine are smaller now cause i lost a bunch of my units. (ymgarls, pods and so on)
23113
Post by: jy2
PrinceOfMadness wrote:For epic trolling, run this list against your opponent:
HQ:
Tervigon
Tervigon
Elite:
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Troop:
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30
Total - 1785
So you still end up with 65 points to play around with in an 1850 game. Each of your turns is going to take 2 hours+, but the look on your opponent's face when you drop 275 models on the table (with the potential to spawn more) will be priceless.
That wouldn't be a fun army to play against. It'll actually be very boring to play against. BTW, your venomthropes aren't going to last. Get a bastion for one of them.
BTW, a pure horde Tyranid army is not a viable nor is it a competitive Tyranid army.
 Therion wrote:I think the only one getting trolled is the poor bastard who has to buy, paint and assemble that.
Lol.
 Kain wrote:
But the best part?
Monstrous creatures. In all the slots.
Word.
It's the return of Nidzilla.
bodazoka wrote:What would be better?
A mix of 20 x devil gaunts and 10 x normal gaunt's outflanking with a Prime. (roughly 350 points)
The above outflanking with out a prime and assuming I can get a flyrant in range. (roughly 200 point's but without the flexibility of guaranteed synapse)
A Tervigon outflanking and then creating X number of gaunt's (195 + X - the TMC + say.. 9 gaunt's shooting likely is not as powerful as any of the above?)
I do not have my codex on me so Im not sure which would be the best threat for the most efficient price..
Personally, I run 2 flyrants so at least for me, outflanking with a Prime in the unit is out of the question.
I prefer to use my tervigon as a midfield or backfield anchor for the rest of my army, so that leaves me with option #2. If I ran this unit, on the turn they come in they will be ok. Afterwards, I'm going to have to have my flyrants nearby.
Naw wrote:Before the horde codex updates everyone was guessing how the meta would change. Now we have an updated horde codex, but not quite what was expected. I guess a horde of monstrous creatures also count as a horde
To an outside observer who has read these threads and a lot of batreps, this is how I feel:
Tau and Eldar are still up there alone. Chaos Daemons find a bad match up with the Tyranids now, could be that folks don't know how to take them. Necrons I haven't seen much in action, but they do what they always do, ie. try the last turn grab. That leaves SM and CSM then. Both seem somewhat ill-equipped to take out a large number of MC's.
Good observations, though I'd say that necrons are up there along with Tau/Eldar.
Also, Draigowing with a brotherhood banner can still give Tyranids problems.
41748
Post by: Deraiderspam
Draigowing Clearly hasn't become acquainted with Exocrines yet!
52205
Post by: PrinceOfMadness
 jy2 wrote:
That wouldn't be a fun army to play against. It'll actually be very boring to play against. BTW, your venomthropes aren't going to last. Get a bastion for one of them.
BTW, a pure horde Tyranid army is not a viable nor is it a competitive Tyranid army.
All good points, though that list I'd posted wasn't meant to be taken seriously. I intended it more as a comment on how many bugs you could fit into a standard sized game for fairly cheap. Heck, the 180 gants come out to just a little over 700 points. I still think it would be worth it for one game just to see your opponent's face. 
33527
Post by: Niiai
Stormoffires do not come with that condescending tone calling me sir and saying I do not know much about Tyranids. I did not claim to know much about Tyranids, I was asking a question among peers, fellow Tyranid enthusiasts who frequent this forum to see what they think about this particular train of thought.
The book did in fact get slimmer: Hive tyrant cost less and his wing upgrades got cheaper. A lot of choises in the elite department. All of the gaunts got cheaper in the troop department if you run them bare. The harpy got cheaper, shrikes got cheaper, in the heavy suport department things have never been this good as most of the options got a huge shawe in points. Carnifexes droped by 25%. On the mawlock you now pay a whopping 24 points for one T6 wound with a 3+ save. Even the all 5th edition codex all tar star trygon got cheaper. The biovore cost less, gained a wound and it leaves clusters of spore mines behind when it misses. On top of that a lot of the upgrades also got priced down, the shrikes for instance is now a riot compared to the old once. On top of that you can ad the fact that you do not have to buy weapons upgrades for entire broods, just some of them. And that last part is huge. All of this ads up.
As ductvade have evidence on and I was pointing out you get much more for your army these days. Even if you pay 50 points more for the Tervigon you still end up having 250 points more to buy an 2000 point army for. And those 250 points are worth more noe then before. So yes, things are better, you have more points to play with despite things like Scything Tallons not re-rolling it is now so much more wounds for the opposing army to kill. For Tyranids, that is as Eddies Izzard would frace it "A good thing".
Now back to the question at hand: If you want the Tervigon as troops in the old codex you would buy the Tervigon and usualy give it adrenaline glands, toxic sacks and the options to roll for 2 extra powers. You would also buy 10 termagaunts. This would cost you 240 points. In the new dex you would buy 1 Tervigon with thorax swarm and 30 termagaunst wich will cost you 325 points. You are now paying 85 points exstra for 20 exstra models compared to the old codex for this new get up. It is however 15 points of if you where to buy 30 'gaunst and a Trigon in the old codex. There are some negative things with this:
1: You would never buy a unit of 30 'gaunts.
2: They no longer get adrenaline glands and toxic sacks.
3: You will roll less powers meaning the Tervigon will not have as much utility.
4: It explodes bigger now.
5: It dies not re-roll 1 in mellee.
6: You can no longer roll Irion Arm.
On the pluss side:
1: You would be ludacris to buy 30 'gaunts in the old codex as you needed to tailor a tTranid list with presission. Getting a cheaper codex means there might be more room for things like this. Also now you can buy 10 to 15 of them with devoueres and use the 4 points one as meat shield. 8 points for a gaunt with a devourer is a very good price. And adding a wound for 4 points is a bargain.
2: Most of the powers on the tyranid list are good, but catalyst is exceptionally good. I like this new psychic table.
3: We got the thorax swarm. Flamers are very good in 6th edition and this flamer is exceptionally well. While the MC's they come on in this book are expensive, the thorax swarm is a huge bargain.
The old Tervigon was not actually that great in a fight. It would make babies and cast psychic powers. Although it could smash attack it had a terrible WS and very few attacks. You mostly bought it for the utility it brought, not the offence. Although a 50% chance of rolling iron arm could change this it still has a poor WS and few attacks. It also was reliable synapse, something you had a hard part justifying elsewhere in the book. I keep brining up the point of the thorax swarm because this will turn out to be a real gem. Now you do not want a Tervigon near your troops as this flamer is bad ass. You do not want to charge it because talngling with and MC with elite troops is not good, and charging it now means you will loose models to the wall of death.
As for the explosion thing I do not remember the wording of how far out you can place your termagant, but even if this is only 6" you can still run the gaunts and Terigon away from each other 50% of the time with an average roll of 7" on two run dice.
Did it get worse? Definably. Did it get bad? That is what I am asking. It might just have gone from being good in a bad codex to being decent in a codex with a lot more viable options in it. The old codex was not a very good codex as certain units where much better then others, often because of bad prising. While a lot of peple are complaining about the synapse it did get easier to get synapse in this codex. Both shrikes and zoantropes became actual options to consider. (The Warrior Prime did take a hit though.) If you are really short on synapse take dominion. Aslo, failing a leadership test is not so bad on a lot of the MC's as theese are fearless. Usualy they now try to do what they are supposed to do like charging or shooting. The Tervigon is not bad at all, it just went from being a mandatory unit for so many reasons (a solid troop choise with psyckick powers that made more troops and was one of the few units to provide synapse) to being just a unit. But I would not say it is bad. I do not know if it is over costed.
I am also wondering if the Hive Guards are bad ether. They still have the best gun in the codex. In fact that gun got better as it now always ignore cover and not just very often. What got nerfed was the BS of one point and a 5 point increase. It is still a 24" range with a very good chance of opening transports and other vehicles before you charge in with all your mellee/double purpose units. I do not know if that is bad.
Of course it now competes with the Fly'rant, Dakka Carnifexes, Zoantropes, and Exorite for viable options to shoot transports and other things while it was the only option in the old codex. Zoantropes are now a viable elite choice, and the Venomtropes can push your army in another direction then the old codex could. Shroud and more wounds in the army means you can just try to be as "fat" as possible. The crone and the harpy can also charge vehicles or vector strike them Hive Guards might have gotten nerfed but most of old redundant, but calling them outright bad feels very wrong for something with that good a gun.
What do you others think? Did the Hive Guards and Tervigon go from good to bad, or just from mandatory to descent?
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Post by: RiTides
ductvader wrote:HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants
ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope
HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine
1850/1850
I like that list quite a bit, although if I run something similar I'm thinking to drop a Tervigon and a few of the gaunts from the second unit, and add another Fex and make them all DakkaFexes.
In that case I'll also turn one of the Venomthropes into a Zoanthrope for the extra synapse.
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Post by: ductvader
 RiTides wrote: ductvader wrote:HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants
ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope
HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine
1850/1850
I like that list quite a bit, although if I run something similar I'm thinking to drop a Tervigon and a few of the gaunts from the second unit, and add another Fex and make them all DakkaFexes.
In that case I'll also turn one of the Venomthropes into a Zoanthrope for the extra synapse.
Going to play with a Firestorm Redoubt instead of the 2nd Flyrant here soon.
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Post by: Niiai
For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?
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Post by: ductvader
Niiai wrote:For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?
Completely different.
A Dakkafex and Tyranno both play more like an LRC whereas an Exocrine is like a cross between a Predator and a Riptide.
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Post by: Jancoran
jy2 wrote:So far, the early consensus for the new Tyranids is that they've gotten worse. They've lost a lot of their good "stuff" from the previous codex and a lot of their units have actually gotten worse. Some examples of the "nerfs" done to the new Tyranids include:
No more access to the rulebook psychic powers. That means no more Biomancy or Telepathy.
They lost key units like Ymgarl genestealers, mycetic spores and in particular, the Doom of Ma'lantai.
The Instinctive Behaviour table is now more punishing. Whereas before, if you fail the test, you either did nothing or you charged with Rage, now if you fail your IB test, you can actually Fall Back, be Pinned or even take damage!
Key units have gotten worse or more expensive. Examples include tervigons, who are now more expensive, do not have access to Biomancy, cannot buff termagants with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs anymore, whose explosion will kill gants within 12" instead of the previously 6" and newly spawned gants now cannot move or assault. Gargoyles with Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs are now more expensive than before by 25% and mawlocs can actually Mishap if they don't kill the models that they hit when they come up. Trygons have lost the ability to re-roll hits, Zoanthropes now have the Brotherhood of Psyker special rule and Swarmy is no longer the hard-hitting monster that he used to be. This list goes on.
Scything talons no longer give you re-rolls to hit and boneswords no longer ignore all armour saves.
Tyranids have lost much of their mobiltiy that used to make them so dangerous. Gone are the Mycetic Spores. Gone are the Ymgarls. Now you practically have to footslog the new bugs. By losing their mobility, Tyranids have also lost a lot of flexibility.
But enough with the negativity. This article isn't about the forecasted doom and gloom about the new Tyranids. As a competitive player, my natural tendency is look to the strengths of the army and I am actually liking what I see. I think that tyranids do have the building blocks for a good army. How good that army will be remains to be seen, but I feel that new tyranids may surprise some people. So how have the new Tyranids gotten better?
Part I - The Strength of the Tyranids
Overview
Psychic Powers:
Most will see the loss of Biomancy and other rulebook powers as a large detriment. However, the Tyranid psychic powers really aren't that bad. Catalyst is a gem and perhaps the best Tyranid psychic power. The Horror is actually great against non-Fearless units with lower Leaderships (think Riptides and such). Onslaught gives them some extra range. Paroxysm is useful against shooty armies and Psychic Scream can turn any unit into a mini-Doom of Ma'lantai. Finally, Warp Blast is now available not only to Zoanthropes, but to Tyrants and the Swarmlord as well. Tyranid psychic powers are actually quite good and that helps to lessen the sting of losing Biomancy.
Regeneration:
Regeneration on a Tyranid monstrous creature is amazing now. Before, you only regenerate on a roll of a 6. Now, you regenerate 1 Wound each turn on a 4+! Now I don't recommend Regeneration on every TMC (Tyranid Monstrous Creature) in the army, but definitely for key units like a Tervigon or maybe even your flyrants.
Tyranid Melee Weapons:
While tyranids have lost the ability to re-roll hits (or re-roll 1's to hit) with the scything talons, now almost any pair of melee weapons can combine to give them +1 Attack. So that meanst the dual boneswords by the Swarmlord gives him 5 Attacks now compared to 4 before. 2 scything talons, scything talons + rending claws, scything talons + crushing claws or even scything talons + boneswords (or bonesword + lashwhips) will give +1 Attack. Base units that benefit from this (assuming they don't trade in their melee weapons for shooting attacks) include the Swarmlord, hive tyrants, lictors and the Deathleaper. Moreover, most TMC's can take a tail biomorph for an extra attack.
Reduced Costs:
With a few exceptions, the majority of the Tyranid units have gone down in cost. Some of them have even gone down substantially. For example, the Tyrannofex with Rupture Cannon is 60-pts cheaper than before. Flyrants with twin-linked devourers and mawlocs are down 30-pts and the base carnifex is down 40-pts! More importantly, Tyranid gribblies such as termagants and hormagants have gone down in points for their base costs. Now, both hoard Tyranids and Nidzilla builds have become more viable.
HQ's
Flyrants:
Wow....these guys are amazing! They are going to be the cornerstone of every competitive Tyranid army and you will see two of them. They are now 30-pts cheaper than before for a winged tyrant with dual twin-linked brainleech devourers. Moreover, they are now Ballistic Skill 4 (compared to BS 3 in the previous edition) and Mastery Level 2 psykers as well!
Old One Eye:
While never a great unit, he has come down by 40-pts in this edition.
Tyrant Guards:
Tyrant Guards are the same as before. The only difference is that they are cheaper by 10-pts each now. One thing to keep in mind, however, is that Lash Whips have been nerfed. Now, they don't lower the Initiative of the opponent. Instead, they only increase the Initiative of the bearer.
Troops
Tervigon:
The tervigon has been nerfed in every which way. They've gone up in price, they no longer have access to Biomancy, they can no longer buff nearby termagants with their biomorphs, a dead tervigon kills gants in a 12" radius (instead of 6") and they now require you to purchase 30 termagants in order to make them a troop choice. Of all the units in the new codex, tervigons are probably the units that were hit the hardest with the nerf bat. However, despite all of that, they are still a necessity in a Tyranid army, both as a durable beacon of synapse and as a troop generator as well. You won't see players spam tervigons anymore like they used to. However, you will still see most competitive lists run at least 1 tervigon, maybe even 2.
By the ways, tervigons have improved in 2 areas. The first is that regeneration does make them now more survivable. The 2nd is that they are now Initiative 2 and a little more survivable to Jaws of the World Wolf.
Termagants:
They are now cheaper. A unit of 30 termagants costs 30-pts less than before. They are also more customizable with their guns. However, the drawback is that they no longer benefit from the Adrenal Gland and Toxin Sac upgrades of a tervigon. Instead, they have to pay for those biomorphs, which are now double the costs of the previous edition. In any case, they will be the building block for troops in a competitive Tyranid list.
Hormagants:
Same with the termagants. The base price of each hormagant has gone down. However, the cost of their biomorphs have gone up. Slightly cheaper if you run them naked or with Adrenal Glands, but once you throw in Toxin Sacs, the cost becomes the same as the previous edition.
Elites
Venomthrope:
The Venomthrope is a gem in this edition. It's cost has gone done by 10-pts. However, its major improvement is that now it has and gives all friendly Tyranids within range Shroud. So deploy your MC's near it behind terrain and instead of a 5+ cover as was in the previous edition, now you are looking at 3+ cover, with 2+ cover behind ruins. He is going to be a must-buy for any and all Tyranid Nidzilla builds.
Lictor:
Still not a great unit, but they are cheaper by 15-pts each. In addition, now they get +1 Attack due to scything talons and rending claws and it's got Fear and Infiltrate.
Zoanthrope:
The Zoanthrope has become both better and worse in this edition. The Brotherhood of Psykers rule is definitely a minus as now, a single successful Deny the Witch can stop all of their shooting. However, on the plus side, a mindstrike missile will only cause 1W to the Zoans even if it hits multiple models within the unit. But the real improvement here is that they are now 10-pts cheaper and are Level 2 psykers. I see competitive players running units of 1 zoanthropes as cheap beacons of synapse and unit-buffers/force-multipliers.
Fast Attacks
Gargoyles:
They actually got nerfed in the new edition. The base cost remained the same. However, their biomorphs have now doubled in price. Despite the price increase, they are still a viable unit and I still see many Tyranid players running them. Lots of them. Flyrants and gargoyles still make a good combo.
Tyranid Shrikes:
Still not a great unit, but it is worth pointing out that they are now 5-pts cheaper per, and their biomorphs - Adrenal Glands and Toxin Sacs - are cheaper as well. So a unit of 5 Shrikes with scything talons, rending claws, adrenal glands and toxin sacs are now 40-pts cheaper than before and in addition, they get +1 Attack for having rending claws and scything talons. Maybe worth considering for a mobile source of synapse other than a flyrant.
Harpy:
Still not a great unit, but with a 30-pt discount for a TL-heavy venom cannon Harpy, it is worth considering, especially in a Tyranid Airforce build.
Hive Crone:
This guy shows a lot of promise. 4 36" haywire shots (twin--linked against other flyers) and S8 vector-strikes? Hell yeah! He needs some playtesting, but on paper, he looks like a winner.
Heavy Supports:
Carnifex:
Ladies and gentlemen....we have a winner! Carnifexes will herald the return of Nidzilla, potentially one of the most competitive builds in the codex. They are 40-pts cheaper per carnifex! That means you can potentially see competitive Tyranid players run 9 of them barebones in a list! Give them 2 TL-brainleech devourers and you've got a pretty effective shooter. Finally, you can give them some tail biomorphs for some more close combat killiness. Overall, you can expect tyranids builds to shift more towards carnifex-builds rather than the tervigon-spam of yesterday's bugs.
Biovore:
Are you kidding me? The unit that I have loved ever since 4th Ed. tyranids have just gotten better. No, they've actually gotten much better. How so? They are now 5-pts cheaper per and....get this....they now have +1 Wound, +1 Initiative and +1 Attack!!! But it gets even better. The spore mines that they launch are now much deadlier as well. Now if the blast misses, instead of placing 1 spore mine under the blast marker, you place D3 mines instead! Thus, a unit of 3 biovores can potentially create 9 spore mines!!! Unlike before, where the spore mines moved randomly, now you can actually control where they move. And now for the cherry on top, they don't just explode at S4. Rather, they explode at S4 +1 for each additional mine in the cluster. Thus, they can potentially explode at S10!!! Wow! 
Every competitive list should contain at least 1 unit of biovores, and I wouldn't be surprised to see people running 3x3 of them at all.
Mawloc:
Like the zoanthrope, this is another unit that has gotten both better and worse at the same time. Probably the most attractive feature of the mawloc is its price tag...they're now 30-pts cheaper! However, where they got hit hard is in their primary attack, the Terror from the Deep. Now when they come out on top of a unit, if they don't wipe out the models in contact with them, then they actually Mishap! WTF?!? On the bright side, their Terror attack can potentially hit twice at AP2 and ignores cover. Moreover, when they get misplaced from the mishap, they can always use their Burrow rule to go back into reserves to try again next turn. Overall, I actually like this unit.
Tyrannofex:
While this guy was never really a competitive unit, his 60-pt price drop for the Rupture Cannon version makes him a very attractive buy. Give him regen and he becomes the most durable ground unit in the Tyranid codex. Definitely worth considering. Back in 5th, I ran the T-fex along with 2x3 biovores to some great success. I think I will have to revisit that build.
Exocrine:
Another intriguing new character, he gives the Tyranids their main source of AP 2 shooting. He's not even the greatest unit in the Heavy Support slots, but I can see players running 2-3 of these guns as mobile gun platforms. With a venomthrope and the Regen biomorphs, they can be very durable shooters.
Part II - Competitive Tyranid Builds
Coming up sometime in the near future will be Part II of my Tyranid article. In Part II, I will look into potential Tyranid competitive, tournament builds. Stay tuned....
Good insite. The doom and gloom has been a little depressing.
When I looked at the codex, the Mawloc and Hive Crone definitely caught my attention, as did the Biovores. The Heavy Support slot is SO crouded that the various builds will likely be marked by which heavies they use, which is interesting.
The Genestealers, which you didn't mention are one unit that has my personal attention. I am a big beleiver that attacking Morale is the strongest play in 40K and so Broodlord Pinning as well as barrage pinning makes me very excited to see what those builds will look like. There is a LOT of potential in the Psychic attacks of the Tyranids, for sure.
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Post by: Deshkar
I have used both exocrines and mawlocs, and say I like the Exocrines a little more.
Mawlocs for me, either perform incredibly well or fail spectacularly.
On the other hand, the Exocrines are very flexible and reliable in dishing out 24" of AP2 threat. I normally run 2x flyrants and 2 dakkafexes/3biovores, so poor ap+high volume of fire is usually already well handled by the other monsters.
Between mawlocs/tyrano/dakka/biovores; you kinda have to balance what the rest of your army is bringing, your local meta, and overall game plan/style.
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Post by: Niiai
Mhm, this new codex is blowing my mind. When I started playing nids in 5th edition I tryed 4 squads of genetsealers but they all died every time. Now the broodlord might be better.
And we have gotten a lot more shooting.
*puts on the thinking hemlmet*
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Post by: RiTides
ductvader wrote: RiTides wrote: ductvader wrote:HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants
ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope
HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine
1850/1850
I like that list quite a bit, although if I run something similar I'm thinking to drop a Tervigon and a few of the gaunts from the second unit, and add another Fex and make them all DakkaFexes.
In that case I'll also turn one of the Venomthropes into a Zoanthrope for the extra synapse.
Going to play with a Firestorm Redoubt instead of the 2nd Flyrant here soon.
Oh yeah, I meant to say I'd add another Fex AND a Bastion  with the leftover points from cutting a Tervigon and some gaunts (which would be plenty to pay for it).
33527
Post by: Niiai
On a quick note: What are people experience with taking singel model units of zoantropes, venomtropes or biovores? All of these are less good for each other model in the brood.
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Post by: Razerous
Okay so one of my first proper games (full 7 turns against a fairly deadly general & list);
5 Scythes (2 of which are doom scythes) Barge lord + MSS; Destroyer Lord + MSS; 5 Wraiths, 15 warriors, Night-fight cryptek (1500pts)
I very nearly tabled him by the end of turn two (the Lord evaded a pair of carnifexes in CC by having his chariot exploded on the HoW hits). It ended up going to turn 7, 4-7 win for Nids!
Summary;
-Dakka Flyrants are awesome, BS4 means so many hits; vector strike to instead engage multiple units, additional impact with maledictions (Paroxysm is my MVP!).
-Dakkafexes - so many shots. 6ed is a shooting person's game and they bring it in spades. Then, they charge into CC and wreck face, especially as a pair.
-Exocrines... with so many other bigger threats/target on the field (dual flyrants, dual fexes, synapse, Tervigon), they can be ignored. 6 Shots is awesome, I used that every time (occasionally Blast will be better) + it allows you to reasonably engage Flyers; as compared to a single snap-fire warp lance or the Trygon's containment spines etc.
-Gants: Use them to capture objectives and win the positional game. Deny charges, ward off movement, bubble-wrap units, contest 3 objectives. A nid player will have the units to do heavy lifting.
-Biovores; Umm
1) Spore Mine Clusters are Hilarious. Top points for amusement factor.
2) The damage/threat range is great and is lacking elsewhere in any Nid army.
3) SMC's are un-threatening or timid... but they will force an opponent to make more decisions, thus more mistakes. Ignoring them may result in a free Str4+ hit in CC!
-Tyranid Psyker Powers. Whilst not having powers like Iron Army for T9 (wounded on 6's?), dropping a Scythe to BS1 or a warrior squad by -1BS is so brilliant! Psychic Scream those GK's @ LD7. Twice I used catalyst to make range, grabbing a few extra inches an opponent thought he was safe from (And again, yes he can then react to this in the future but it means more decisions thus more mistakes).
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Post by: JGrand
For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?
After giving it a try, I don't like the Exocrine at all. 24" range is a bit limited in the current game; however, the worst issue it faces is wild inaccuracy. The reliable and desirable shooting in 40k right now is twin-linked and/or ignores cover. I had a game the other night in which the Exocrine's big blast hit 7 Grey Hunters. While it didn't scatter, once cover was factored in, I killed a whopping two models. The six shot mode is similarly underwhelming--especially compared to the volumes of twin-linked strength six and seven of contemporary competitive lists.
All in all, I think the Exocrine is fool's gold. It is only a matter of time before players realize this.
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Post by: Razerous
 JGrand wrote:For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?
After giving it a try, I don't like the Exocrine at all. 24" range is a bit limited in the current game; however, the worst issue it faces is wild inaccuracy. The reliable and desirable shooting in 40k right now is twin-linked and/or ignores cover. I had a game the other night in which the Exocrine's big blast hit 7 Grey Hunters. While it didn't scatter, once cover was factored in, I killed a whopping two models. The six shot mode is similarly underwhelming--especially compared to the volumes of twin-linked strength six and seven of contemporary competitive lists.
All in all, I think the Exocrine is fool's gold. It is only a matter of time before players realize this.
I disagree entirely. It seems to me players are getting spoilt by super-elite units that have those extreme levels of accuracy/reliability which simply doesn't exist across an entire codex, in any codex. Its good shooting nids don't have elsewhere and @ BS4 6 shots seems fairly reasonable to me! How much are those mech vet plasma squads?
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Post by: ductvader
Razerous wrote: JGrand wrote:For those of you who have tryed it, how does the exorine do? How would you compare it to a dakka fex or a flame tyranofex?
After giving it a try, I don't like the Exocrine at all. 24" range is a bit limited in the current game; however, the worst issue it faces is wild inaccuracy. The reliable and desirable shooting in 40k right now is twin-linked and/or ignores cover. I had a game the other night in which the Exocrine's big blast hit 7 Grey Hunters. While it didn't scatter, once cover was factored in, I killed a whopping two models. The six shot mode is similarly underwhelming--especially compared to the volumes of twin-linked strength six and seven of contemporary competitive lists.
All in all, I think the Exocrine is fool's gold. It is only a matter of time before players realize this.
I disagree entirely. It seems to me players are getting spoilt by super-elite units that have those extreme levels of accuracy/reliability which simply doesn't exist across an entire codex, in any codex. Its good shooting nids don't have elsewhere and @ BS4 6 shots seems fairly reasonable to me! How much are those mech vet plasma squads?
...and it's an effective 30" range. More with onslaught.
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Post by: Niiai
This rather depends on what you are shooting at? If you want to kill a rhino you would not a hive guard do better? The Exorite is AP2. Have somebody math hammered 3 hive guard vs an exorite one a move and on a standing stil?
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Post by: Razerous
Niiai wrote:This rather depends on what you are shooting at? If you want to kill a rhino you would not a hive guard do better? The Exorite is AP2. Have somebody math hammered 3 hive guard vs an exorite one a move and on a standing stil?
But virtually every other decent shooting option in the nid codex can handle a rhino. However the AP2 the Exocrine provides is unique.
Also, this is speaking from a balanced approach.
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Post by: badula
Could you tell me the exact setup of a dakkafex?
is it just 2x twinlinked brainleech or there is more in the recipe?
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Post by: rigeld2
Nope, that's it.
150 points of awesome.
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Post by: Noctem
For a cc fex (2 scytals) would both AG and TC be best or just AG?
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Post by: Razerous
If you really wanted to punish yourself (and spend 33-66% of the cost of the 2xTL-Devs), getting adrenal is a must for fleet alone, CC wise. Then add biomorphs to taste.
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Post by: Noctem
Well, I don't really consider it too much punishment since I very much enjoy playing close combat Tyranids, and I think dakkafexes are pure ugliness... even if they are the best choice vs cc fexes =P
I do try to play well and optimize what I DO like playing, but I for some reason I really hate the look of dakkafexes and also love melee!
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Post by: Commander_Farsight
Noctem wrote:Well, I don't really consider it too much punishment since I very much enjoy playing close combat Tyranids, and I think dakkafexes are pure ugliness... even if they are the best choice vs cc fexes =P
I do try to play well and optimize what I DO like playing, but I for some reason I really hate the look of dakkafexes and also love melee!
Its good to play what you like, especially when you find a build and army you like. I was able to do this with my Tau army. If you want to see it in action, check out my Battle Report on it, under the threads I have started.
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Post by: Naw
What I like most about the xenos: Their Codex can completely change between versions. As a BA player I am quite jealous. I don't have any exceptions as I know the codex will be mediocre.
It sounds like Tyranids are quite formidable in shooting, I really do like them!
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Post by: lord_blackfang
Razerous wrote:
I very nearly tabled him by the end of turn two (the Lord evaded a pair of carnifexes in CC by having his chariot exploded on the HoW hits).
I always detested people saying "your experience is invalid because you opponent sucks" but... if I'm reading this correctly he let a Fast Skimmer be caught by Carnifexes by turn 2?
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Post by: tetrisphreak
 lord_blackfang wrote:Razerous wrote:
I very nearly tabled him by the end of turn two (the Lord evaded a pair of carnifexes in CC by having his chariot exploded on the HoW hits).
I always detested people saying "your experience is invalid because you opponent sucks" but... if I'm reading this correctly he let a Fast Skimmer be caught by Carnifexes by turn 2?
Given that it was probably a barge lord with MSS and a Warscythe, I could see how it would have moved towards the tyranid army, hoping to kill a hive tyrant or other somesuch, while not realizing the still lethal brutality of a brood of carnifexen.
Just supposing though, i wasn't there.
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Post by: gorgon
stormoffires wrote:Anyone try the pack of 30 termagants outflank with a Prime thats bonesword/lashwhip? I did a 30gaunt flank, 10 with dev. my word that was brutal, and a massive tarpit, then had a tervigon troop in the backfield with only the gaunts it spawns anywhere near it.
It's not near the top of my list of things to test, but one thing I'd like to try for gaks and giggles is a Prime stuck in a big unit of Genestealers with a Broodlord, either infiltrating or outflanking. Yeah, it's problematic for a host of reasons. But figure two T5 characters in the mix, with some SitW, etc. added to the Horror...might be fun.
ductvader wrote:Created a fairly powerful list.
It can obviously be toyed with and doesn't fit the internet's love for spam...but it's been proving to be pretty mean thus far.
HQ
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
-Tyrant (Wings, 2x Devourers)
TROOP
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-Tervigon (Cluster Spines)
-30 Termagants
-30 Termagants
ELITE
-Venomthrope
-Venomthrope
-Zoanthrope
HEAVY
-2x Carnifex (Adrenal Glands)
-Exocrine
-Exocrine
1850/1850
It's funny...the lists I'm trying first aren't identical to yours, but they've evolved in the same general direction. So is it groupthink at work, or does it show that GW intended players to build these types of lists?
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Post by: ductvader
 gorgon wrote:It's funny...the lists I'm trying first aren't identical to yours, but they've evolved in the same general direction. So is it groupthink at work, or does it show that GW intended players to build these types of lists?
GW intended to sell every Tyranid kit except the Pyrovore with this book.
Termagants are cheaper and you now need 30 to run a Tervigon, so more fit in a list, on top of that, termagants can take a bunch of free options...which, if taken, mean you need more fleshborer gants for spawning purposes.
My list above require an average of 92 termagants...112 if I include 10 Spike Rifles in each unit as I plan on doing.
So many MCs are cheaper, except the Tervigon who most people already own 2 of and lets face it is now perfectly costed for what he does...and so you can fit more MCs into list.
For the first time since I can remember, the ELITE section is balanced.
The Exocrine was meant to be sold for effectiveness and the Haruspex for coolness...luckily they just happened to be one kit.
The whole book is viable...even a lictor/stealer army can be done for those that are just in love with that aesthetic.
The book was well written, the ways that rules are actually laid out overall reminds me very much of the Eldar book which has very few conflicts as well.
The Pyrovore...we all want to buy them so bad...It's a cool model...and GW doesn't want to sell them? This is the only point I don't get.
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Post by: AdeptSister
Does anyone think that regeneration is worth it on a flyrant? With its mobility, it could be useful.
25360
Post by: ductvader
 AdeptSister wrote:Does anyone think that regeneration is worth it on a flyrant? With its mobility, it could be useful.
Personally I only throw Regen on walkrants with guard...so you can choose when you take the wounds and how many...or on tyrannos who can take the pain. It's also not bad on a single fex in a brood if you know how to rotate the brood through the game or play a LoS game via Prime.
Exocrines are debateable depending on what else is in the list, and Trygons that start on the board have merit. Automatically Appended Next Post: Generally if you're taking one wound with a flyrant you're taking more...and then its often too late to regenerate in my experience.
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Post by: DaddyWarcrimes
 B0B MaRlEy wrote: The Shadow wrote: jifel wrote:rollawaythestone wrote:
Most Psykers won't be alone, however, except perhaps Nid psykers and Daemons. Unfortunately, Daemons (and Fearless Nids) are immune to pinning.
Those Grey Knights though...
SitW + The Horror is pretty hilarious on Seer Councils too. Especially on Jetbike-mounted ones. How fast do you move? Not anymore!
Bikes can't be pinned. Try again.
And good Seer Councils are Fearless thanks to the Shard of Anaris.
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Post by: ductvader
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: B0B MaRlEy wrote: The Shadow wrote: jifel wrote:rollawaythestone wrote:
Most Psykers won't be alone, however, except perhaps Nid psykers and Daemons. Unfortunately, Daemons (and Fearless Nids) are immune to pinning.
Those Grey Knights though...
SitW + The Horror is pretty hilarious on Seer Councils too. Especially on Jetbike-mounted ones. How fast do you move? Not anymore!
Bikes can't be pinned. Try again.
And good Seer Councils are Fearless thanks to the Shard of Anaris.
90% of a good seer council is LD5 anyways against a decent bug player.
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Post by: Niiai
I never get the argument that GW price models to sell new kits. I can understand them changing the prices on things in an army in order to make shure it is not the same old mach ups (and new kits would be included in this). However if there intension was to sell pyrovores would it not at some point be worth playing with?
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Post by: Dozer Blades
If the Tervigon is less popular now they'll still probably sell a lot of the kit if the Tfex becomes more popular due to point reduction.
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Post by: Gloomfang
So far my biggest problem is that I struggle to make a competitive list that doesn't involve fortifications. Makes me feel a little put off. However they give big boosts to many of Nid's weaknesses.
So many Nid batteries and redoubts are being built while I type this it is a little scary.
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Post by: stormoffires
Dozer Blades wrote:If the Tervigon is less popular now they'll still probably sell a lot of the kit if the Tfex becomes more popular due to point reduction.
dont forget the price reduction and point reduction of regular fexs! haha
79194
Post by: Co'tor Shas
ductvader wrote:DaddyWarcrimes wrote: B0B MaRlEy wrote: The Shadow wrote: jifel wrote:rollawaythestone wrote:
Most Psykers won't be alone, however, except perhaps Nid psykers and Daemons. Unfortunately, Daemons (and Fearless Nids) are immune to pinning.
Those Grey Knights though...
SitW + The Horror is pretty hilarious on Seer Councils too. Especially on Jetbike-mounted ones. How fast do you move? Not anymore!
Bikes can't be pinned. Try again.
And good Seer Councils are Fearless thanks to the Shard of Anaris.
90% of a good seer council is LD5 anyways against a decent bug player.
Wait, warlocks are Ld6? That's worse than basic FWs.
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Post by: The Shadow
 Co'tor Shas wrote: ductvader wrote:DaddyWarcrimes wrote: B0B MaRlEy wrote: The Shadow wrote: jifel wrote:rollawaythestone wrote:
Most Psykers won't be alone, however, except perhaps Nid psykers and Daemons. Unfortunately, Daemons (and Fearless Nids) are immune to pinning.
Those Grey Knights though...
SitW + The Horror is pretty hilarious on Seer Councils too. Especially on Jetbike-mounted ones. How fast do you move? Not anymore!
Bikes can't be pinned. Try again.
And good Seer Councils are Fearless thanks to the Shard of Anaris.
90% of a good seer council is LD5 anyways against a decent bug player.
Wait, warlocks are Ld6? That's worse than basic FWs.
Ld8. The -3 SitW puts it to Ld5. Spiritseers are Ld9 and Farseers 10.
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Post by: Co'tor Shas
The Shadow wrote: Co'tor Shas wrote: ductvader wrote:DaddyWarcrimes wrote: B0B MaRlEy wrote: The Shadow wrote: jifel wrote:rollawaythestone wrote:
Most Psykers won't be alone, however, except perhaps Nid psykers and Daemons. Unfortunately, Daemons (and Fearless Nids) are immune to pinning.
Those Grey Knights though...
SitW + The Horror is pretty hilarious on Seer Councils too. Especially on Jetbike-mounted ones. How fast do you move? Not anymore!
Bikes can't be pinned. Try again.
And good Seer Councils are Fearless thanks to the Shard of Anaris.
90% of a good seer council is LD5 anyways against a decent bug player.
Wait, warlocks are Ld6? That's worse than basic FWs.
Ld8. The -3 SitW puts it to Ld5. Spiritseers are Ld9 and Farseers 10.
Oh, thought sitw was just -1, silly me.
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Post by: Jancoran
Ebay will do a brisk business in EXTRA Tervigons soon. hehehehe. People only really need ONE.
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Post by: felixcat
I have not done extensive testing yet Jancoren. But I am not really impressed with a lot of units. I see Flyrant, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and Exocrines as the best of the lot right now. I tested Crones and in two games they killed very little. I do not omagine haroeies will do much better. They are just to fragile. Now I guess a single Terv and 30 Termagants are not bad troops. But so far nothing has inspired me to create an out-of the-box list.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
Don't forget Biovores, Biovores are awesome.
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Post by: Jancoran
 felixcat wrote:I have not done extensive testing yet Jancoren. But I am not really impressed with a lot of units. I see Flyrant, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and Exocrines as the best of the lot right now. I tested Crones and in two games they killed very little. I do not omagine haroeies will do much better. They are just to fragile. Now I guess a single Terv and 30 Termagants are not bad troops. But so far nothing has inspired me to create an out-of the-box list.
Well to be honest I am not even sure i recognize yet what is in the box through this miasma of negativity. Lol. I hear very little i nthe way of true tactica at all. Just this back and forth you see here.
As for Hive Crones, they are there for anti-air, that's all. Seems to me that you'll never want three and always want to reserve them.
I like the Exocrines. Yes indeedy. So many armies would HATE seeing three of those later in the game after being whittled a bit. they could be your closers. Range is a bit short so it might be a dangerous play to puit them out there right away but any enemy unit foolish enough to cross that line? Mm mm mm. Lots of units who dont want any o that.
I'm going to talk to my Tyranid buddies in depth to see what is working for them so far in games, and how they are deploying. I think there is definitely some importance to that in all armies. I mean hell, I am finally learning to use a Night Lords list (you know, the Codex everyone said was...well they said the same things about it as the Tyranids!). I learned through games that I could definitely beat Mechdar (repeatedly) with an assault army more easily by essentially deploying the opposite way I normally do. That was quite an interesting revalation. I mean I lost an entire 340 point squad of Raptors to start the game when he seized the initiative. Blew the entire unit clean off the board. Just gone. Killed a Rhino as well. Final score was 14-3. =) Go Chaos.
So if I can do that, Tyranids can win. Just gotta figure it out. It's early yet.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
Tyranids can definitely win, they're not particularly strong but a good list can contend with other mid-tier codices, especially ones that will have trouble taking down lots of monstrous creatures.
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Post by: Mysticdog
I like the Exocrines. Yes indeedy. So many armies would HATE seeing three of those later in the game after being whittled a bit. they could be your closers. Range is a bit short so it might be a dangerous play to puit them out there right away but any enemy unit foolish enough to cross that line? Mm mm mm. Lots of units who dont want any o that.
Lol, well, at 510 points, I'm sure that would be a nasty clean up force. I'm pretty almost anything at 510 points would be considered a nasty endgame force.
They gotta survive to the endgame, though, and preferably your opponent will have less than 500 points. At 5 wounds armor 3, that isn't easy. Also, you are going to need some synapse, and most likely some troops. So yeah, if you make it to the endgame with say, 800 points, you are doing great!
Frontloading damage is a way better strategy that holding back. Exocrine are ok, but not awesome, at doing that. especially if they want to avoid being killed in the interim. Exocrine are much more like early gambit troops, hopefully you can kill enough of the enemy with them before they die.
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Post by: ductvader
Mysticdog wrote: I like the Exocrines. Yes indeedy. So many armies would HATE seeing three of those later in the game after being whittled a bit. they could be your closers. Range is a bit short so it might be a dangerous play to puit them out there right away but any enemy unit foolish enough to cross that line? Mm mm mm. Lots of units who dont want any o that.
Lol, well, at 510 points, I'm sure that would be a nasty clean up force. I'm pretty almost anything at 510 points would be considered a nasty endgame force.
They gotta survive to the endgame, though, and preferably your opponent will have less than 500 points. At 5 wounds armor 3, that isn't easy. Also, you are going to need some synapse, and most likely some troops. So yeah, if you make it to the endgame with say, 800 points, you are doing great!
Frontloading damage is a way better strategy that holding back. Exocrine are ok, but not awesome, at doing that. especially if they want to avoid being killed in the interim. Exocrine are much more like early gambit troops, hopefully you can kill enough of the enemy with them before they die.
I second this...with him in my recent games, you need other forward pushing massed T4 wounds or MCs in order to protect the exocrine. I personally use fleeting carnifexes to pull fire off him and allow him to do his business.
I don't personally see any list needing 3. The exocrine is a fantastic creature for everything he does...if he is not a priority target.
Tyrannos, Harpies, Crones, Raveners, Shrikes, Tervigons, Carnifexes, Trygons are all great units for relieving pressure on him.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
Trygon Prime with Reaper is a boss !!
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Post by: Jancoran
Mysticdog wrote:
Frontloading damage is a way better strategy that holding back. Exocrine are ok, but not awesome, at doing that. especially if they want to avoid being killed in the interim. Exocrine are much more like early gambit troops, hopefully you can kill enough of the enemy with them before they die.
Almost every army i build is played for the endgame. So front loading damage is rarely the way I win. Which is why ideas like this appeal to me. The movement phase is entirely underrated as a way to win.
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Post by: bodazoka
@ Jancoran
What do you mean by "Building an army for the end game" and what Tyranid unit's so you think would match that description?
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Post by: felixcat
You certainly need a few tricks up your sleeve. Units coming in from reserve are not 'front loaded' So a Mawloc would fit the description. Outflankers would fit the description. You need some of these units. The key to any good army is various modes of deployment. As an example ... I would always run my Tyrants with Hive Commander. I can then choose what to outflank. Take a list like this ...
Flyrant - Wings, 2xTL-Brainleech Devourers 230
Flyrant - Wings, 2xTL-Brainleech Devourers; Hive Commander 250
1x Venomthrope 45
1x Venomthrope 45
Tervigon - Miasma Cannon 220
30 Termagants - 11 Devourers 165
5 Tyranid Warriors - Rending Claws, Adrenal Glands, Barbed Strangler 205
Exocrine 170
Exocrine 170
You have a lot of options here in actually as how you wish to deploy and how aggressive you want to be. You have plenty of wounds on the table if you just want to outflank the termagants for instance. You have both cc and shooting in the list. You have tricks you cam play with reserve and you don't need to be overly aggressive ( against some lists it just is not a good policy).
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Post by: McNinja
How so? I considered using him, but I decided to swap him and an exocrine for a harpy and biovores.
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Post by: Jancoran
bodazoka wrote:@ Jancoran
What do you mean by "Building an army for the end game" and what Tyranid unit's so you think would match that description?
This is a harder question to answer on a forum. Felixcat kind of knows how I build them but its more of a tactical view to list building instead of a building block view that is typical.
In a building block view, you itemize units by their "kills per point" and various damage output scenarios. Building block lists are Stelek type lists where you see "triple anything that has awesome damage potential". There will be a nod in there to defensive measures like anti-air, and such, but for the most part its an MSU style of deploying the most powerful units possible and then outputting damage early and often.
And that all sounds very good. In fact, it's totally legit.
The Endgame is a little more subtle way to play. you tend to use movement as a weapon and timing as a trap. Infiltrators, Outflankers, Deep strikers and Scouting units will all figure prominently in this type of warfare and the idea is to isolate and kill the enemy strategically rather than trying to kill a MUCH as you can. You identify WHERE and WHEN you can strike to win the game and then cut the enemy off from affecting the outcome. So you win with movement and timing, attacks the enemy cannot stop and attacks that they wont choose to stop.
I can't explain it a LOT better than that. But in that kind of a fight, you are very easily witholding 1/2 your troops from normal deployment, and choosing wisely the units you want the enemy to come for, preferably things they really really NEED to come for.
So in the case of Tyranids, as Felixcat said, I'd prefer a Hive Commander also to maximize my deployment options. I might prefer mawlocs and even some GeneStealers. The Hive Crone as i have mentioned makes sense. Perhaps a Tervigon who can protect her clutch until needed at a strategically important moment. Another unit that works well is the Biovores. Their ability to inflict damage safely makes the enemy very keen on shutting them up, lures the enemy into far flung pockets to silence them and then those pockets are much weaker on their own and can be taken down more easily, even by lesser units.
I dont want to make it sound mystical. it's not. But I have shown it to be more than effective as a tactic and Tyranids do have the ability to build an army like that.
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Post by: bodazoka
That is a super interesting way to look at a list, thank you for giving me that insight. I fall into the damage output category without even realizing it! you just naturally tend to move towards the unit's that provide the most Dakka!
I will certainly have a look at that and see if I can utilize some of what you are talking about.
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Post by: Runt Nosher
The more I list build using the new book I am coming to a similar style to what I was using at the end of fifth edition. Reserves are becoming my first thought and tricking my opponent into thinking I'm putting pressure in one area when really by turn three everything will be in his face and coming out of nowhere. Even when you had to take extra wounds from fearless it was worth tying units up in combat with fearless models for eternities. So far I have locked down Riptides, Farsights, Ridiculous level of power Black Legion DP, and all kinds of troops on objectives just with my gaunts. Largely my MCs have become the garbage men, incapable of taking any serious threat head on but more than happy to soak fire and take opportunity situations as they squeak through my wall of bodies. Another reason why more and more they are being armed with guns.
I'm starting to lean away from venomthropes only because ignore cover and barrage style weapons are part and partial to competitive opponents and they just get target prioritized and killed, normally for first blood. This actually opens up space for the return of hive guard or maybe a brood or two of lictors to go along with my mawlocs. I know the fortification and 'thrope combo is going to be suggested tirelessly as the be all end all for competitive lists but I have been taking a crack at some of my metas better generals and seeing good results with a combined arms approach that attacks from multiple vectors.
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Post by: aushlo
I played a 1000 point game against my friend's Space Marines army and thought I'd share some discoveries and thoughts on the units I used and special rules. The mission was Big Guns and Vanguard.
Instinctive Behavior influenced a grand total of one play in the game- moving my lone Biovore forward a bit to stay in Synapse range. It's really not that big a deal at all as far as I can see. The Warlord Table and psychic powers are very cool. I don't miss Biomancy one bit.
I ran two single Zoanthropes and they were great, one got The Horror (which didn't end up having much effect as I was Warp Blasting instead) but Onslaught was great when cast on my Carnifex Brood. Speaking of which...
I ran a two Carnifex brood, Stranglethorn Cannons, nothing else. They were awesome, doing a fair bit of damage in shooting and then eating two squads of Marines with the help of...
Hormagaunts! These guys were key to victory. They are FAST and need to be dealt with when they are supported by Synapse and therefore Fearless. Best hundred points I've spent in ages.
Heavy Venom Cannon is a very dangerous weapon, especially on a Tyrant. It's lost the nerf to tank-popping and that makes a HUGE difference.
The Biovore was ok, but the marine armor saves were just killer all game against the mines. It probably did a dozen or more wounds but I don't recall it killing more than one model.
I tried a deep striking Spore Mine Cluster and I'm undecided if it's good yet. It did force an unfavorable move or two from my opponent and I am tempted to say it's going to be a great sucker punch in certain match ups.
The game ended turn 5 with a concession. I had First Blood, and was very comfortably looking at Slay the Warlord, Linebreaker and at least two of three Objectives, plus one more from an Archaeotech device in my back field.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
 McNinja wrote:How so? I considered using him, but I decided to swap him and an exocrine for a harpy and biovores.
+3I, Shred & +1S coupled with AP2 since it's an MC. Plus any roll of a 6 to wound is Instant Death. Great combo.
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
felixcat wrote:I have not done extensive testing yet Jancoren. But I am not really impressed with a lot of units. I see Flyrant, Venomthropes, Zoanthropes and Exocrines as the best of the lot right now. I tested Crones and in two games they killed very little. I do not omagine haroeies will do much better. They are just to fragile. Now I guess a single Terv and 30 Termagants are not bad troops. But so far nothing has inspired me to create an out-of the-box list.
we are still exploring our options. But we are already seeing some really good new possibilities; last night our flyrants both had Warp Blast, and combined with the improved BS, gave a lot more damage output. We warp-blasted the warlord into oblivion, which was great fun. Starting to get over the loss of Biomancy.
We've had great results from two crones, OK results from the crone and harpy combination. They're not bargains, but they do keep the pressure on and open up a lot of opportunities. Overall, if your taste is for flying circus lists, maybe the codex has improved... perhaps the rumoured flyer dataslate would make judgements less equivocal, gargoyles as troops would suit us to the ground, obviously we hope for the same re shrikes. Plus we like dakkafexes, and the opportunity to run more , especially if they'er available as troops would be a big benefit.
Our mawloc won us the game, last night, too... scattered too far for TftD, but killed a couple of units in assault, bizarrely. I think the Mawloc is our new Doom of Malantai; same cost, same scare factor, not reliable but great for disruption
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Post by: WarOne
I'm trying to think of a concept of fast and close 'nid deployment to the opponent's side, so a list entirely of deep strikers, flyers, and infiltrators at 1850-
HQ-
1x Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms - 230 Points
1x Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2x Twin-linked Devourer with Brainleech Worms- 230 Points
Troops-
5x Genestealer- 70 Points
5x Genestealer- 70 Points
5x Genestealer- 70 Points
5x Genestealer- 70 Points
5x Genestealer- 70 Points
5x Genestealer- 70 Points
Elite-
Fast Attack-
30x Gargoyles, Toxin Sacs- 240 Points
Harpy- Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines- 155 Points
Harpy- Heavy Venom Cannon, Cluster Spines- 155 Points
Heavy Support-
Mawloc- 140 Points
Mawloc- 140 Points
Mawloc- 140 Points
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Post by: streamdragon
If you want to be on the opponent's side, you should find some points for Hive Commander on the Tyrants. Nothing says "I'm in your space!" like a unit outflanking.
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Post by: Red Corsair
I dont own the codex but wouldnt trhis list be around 1850:
Flyrant- dual Dev
Flyrant- dual Dev
Zoanthrope
venomthrope
Crone
Crone
Crone
30 Terms
Tervigon
10 terms
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion
I figured it's about 1855 but hoping its a tad less if not switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores, probably better anyhow.
I would hate to face this list.
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Post by: rigeld2
I actually had a lot fun (and effectiveness) out of
Flyrant, dual dev
Flyrant, BS/LW, ScyTal
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Tyrannofex, Adrenal, Regen
Dakkafexx2
Dakkafexx2
I almost had a tie against my nemesis (DE player) but I failed 7 out of 8 4+ saves on the last turn, and my Tyrannofex couldn't kill a single Haemonculous over 4 combat turns.
edit: 1500 points. 1850 I'll grab some more troops.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
 Red Corsair wrote:I dont own the codex but wouldnt trhis list be around 1850:
Flyrant- dual Dev
Flyrant- dual Dev
Zoanthrope
venomthrope
Crone
Crone
Crone
30 Terms
Tervigon
10 terms
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion
I figured it's about 1855 but hoping its a tad less if not switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores, probably better anyhow.
I would hate to face this list.
It's 1795, before the bastion. And with no additional upgrades.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Eldercaveman wrote: Red Corsair wrote:I dont own the codex but wouldnt trhis list be around 1850:
Flyrant- dual Dev
Flyrant- dual Dev
Zoanthrope
venomthrope
Crone
Crone
Crone
30 Terms
Tervigon
10 terms
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Bastion
I figured it's about 1855 but hoping its a tad less if not switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores, probably better anyhow.
I would hate to face this list.
It's 1795, before the bastion. And with no additional upgrades.
OK thats what I figured, and I loaned out my BRB to my brother but I figured the bastion was 60, but now I am thinking its 75 lol. So prolly switch out a mawloc for a unit of biovores which I assume are 40ppm. Lol its funny making lists with no reference material and costs you've heard
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rigeld2 wrote:I actually had a lot fun (and effectiveness) out of
Flyrant, dual dev
Flyrant, BS/ LW, ScyTal
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Warriorsx3, all spitters
Tyrannofex, Adrenal, Regen
Dakkafexx2
Dakkafexx2
I almost had a tie against my nemesis ( DE player) but I failed 7 out of 8 4+ saves on the last turn, and my Tyrannofex couldn't kill a single Haemonculous over 4 combat turns.
edit: 1500 points. 1850 I'll grab some more troops.
See warriors aren't as bad as people are saying. I mean when you consider a carnifex is 120 stock and can be killed by 4 AT weapons and 120 buys you 4 warriors which wi8ll dies to four AT weapons its not as awful as people make out. Yes they have a worse save and T but its also 12 wounds vs AI fire and they score and provide synapse. I am not saying they are awesome mind you, simply that for their cost they aren't really that awful. Anything that will chew them up will mulch 120 pts worth of troops in any other book too. Take that how you want.
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Post by: Niiai
Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.
I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Swapping out the Mawloc for Bios makes it 1775 before the Bastion.
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Post by: rigeld2
Niiai wrote:Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.
I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.
You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Perfect then! I think that list has merit through forward pressure and target saturation. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote: Niiai wrote:Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.
I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.
You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.
Exactly, small blasts should only grab one, large one as well if im not mistaken due to 40mm bases at full coherency centered on the model 2 when they slide it to the edge of the base. Using terrain this isn't that big an issue, even without cover thats not much worse then the carnifex.
People always act like their warriors are running around with their bases touching one another. If they are your playing so badly I doubt unit choice matters.
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Post by: streamdragon
rigeld2 wrote: Niiai wrote:Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.
I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.
You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.
I'm thinking he means the big template (ala Marbo's satchel charge). Would easily hit 3 models, given it's a 2.5" radius and coherency is 2".
Edit: hm, hadn't taken 40mm base into consideration. Will test.
Edit 2:
Red Corsair wrote:Exactly, small blasts should only grab one, large one as well if im not mistaken due to 40mm bases at full coherency centered on the model 2 when they slide it to the edge of the base. Using terrain this isn't that big an issue, even without cover thats not much worse then the carnifex.
People always act like their warriors are running around with their bases touching one another. If they are your playing so badly I doubt unit choice matters.
When centered on 40mm model, the large blast hits only 1 model if all models are at maximum 2" coherency. Given, however, even a fraction of an inch under that 2" spacing and you easily hit 3 models, assuming that you can always have 2" coherency is just as foolish as assuming models are always bunched together. Neither requires insulting someone's ability to play the game.
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Post by: rigeld2
 streamdragon wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Niiai wrote:Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.
I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.
You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.
I'm thinking he means the big template (ala Marbo's satchel charge). Would easily hit 3 models, given it's a 2.5" radius and coherency is 2".
Edit: hm, hadn't taken 40mm base into consideration. Will test.
Unless you have your Warriors in a circle it'll only hit two. Want a picture?
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Post by: streamdragon
rigeld2 wrote: streamdragon wrote:rigeld2 wrote: Niiai wrote:Your comparason of warriors and carnifexes survivabillaty has one hole. S8 blast templates. Vs warriors you loose 120 points, vs carnifex you loose 1 wound measuring in at about 30 points.
I always run into a S8 blast template. Satchel charge with marbo, a big tanks etc.
You need to spread out more. At most you should lose 2 models (assuming no cover) to a S8 large blast - that's 60 points to "30" from 1 wound on a fex.
I'm thinking he means the big template (ala Marbo's satchel charge). Would easily hit 3 models, given it's a 2.5" radius and coherency is 2".
Edit: hm, hadn't taken 40mm base into consideration. Will test.
Unless you have your Warriors in a circle it'll only hit two. Want a picture?
See edit above. You are required to have a minimum of 3 warriors (starting, of course). Assuming no casualties already, even a fraction of an inch under the 2" maximum (say, to fit in cover) and you will hit 3 models.
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Post by: Dozer Blades
I am not a fan of the bastion nor feel it is MUST TAKE. Those points can go towards more bugz which is more win.
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Post by: ductvader
Dozer Blades wrote:I am not a fan of the bastion nor feel it is MUST TAKE. Those points can go towards more bugz which is more win.
Indeed, though after creating your own bug bastion, you might think otherwise.
I've also made my own dead bug defense lines, skynest, and I'm working on the bugstorm redoubt right now.
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Post by: rigeld2
Spoiler is the full size images.
So if you center the hole on one of the models it'll only hit one. If you get it offcenter you'll get 2. If you're not spaced properly you might hit 3, but proper spacing isn't just for hordes.
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Post by: Razerous
Or a fraction of a scatter.
The question is, once we all move past the vulnerability to str8 blast weapons, how good are warriors?
-Shooting?
-Assault?
-Provides Synapse
-Potential for MC mobile cover?
-9x T4 4+ wounds. Survivability?
For 100-120 points, you could have a great distraction unit. But then so are 24 hormagaunts or 20 gargs. Bah (I own warriors).
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Post by: ductvader
Razerous wrote:Or a fraction of a scatter.
The question is, once we all move past the vulnerability to str8 blast weapons, how good are warriors?
-Shooting?
-Assault?
-Provides Synapse
-Potential for MC mobile cover?
-9x T4 4+ wounds. Survivability?
5 Warriors are almost exactly as durable as 10 Tac Marines for the same cost until you figure AP4 weapons into the mix...
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Post by: streamdragon
Pros:
Provide Synapse
Are Fearless
Can now get flesh hooks
Cons:
Rending Claws no longer free
All the cons they had last edition, because they didn't change (except for Flesh hooks and rending claws, as above).
Really the big thing is that the Tervigon changes make Warriors a cheap source of Synapse that fills a Troop slot. Warriors didn't really get any better, they just got better in comparison.
I built a brood of 9 CC warriors with Rending Claws/Scything Talons. I think they look awesome. But they will most likely never actually see the table. Automatically Appended Next Post: ductvader wrote:
5 Warriors are almost exactly as durable as 10 Tac Marines for the same cost until you figure AP4 weapons into the mix...
AP4 being such an uncommon AP!
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Post by: The Shadow
It's not just S8 blasts that Warriors have to worry about. Stuff like Lootas, Heavy Bolters and Assault Cannons chew through Warriors far easier than Carnifexes.
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Post by: Eldercaveman
Aren't warriors now on 50mm bases?
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Post by: Niiai
The warrior is like a lot of the tyranids units a little bit of both. It is mellee and shooting. Baring synapse there are better choises in the troop selection. Gaunt shoot better and are better in close combat for their points.
The argument for warrior is to load them up for melee (wich shrikes do better) or give them a bio cannon and start laying down templates. Also synapse.
Edit: You people also keep saying space out. For the tyranids this is dificult as they often have to deoploy further away from the enemy as you try to space everything out. The more points you play with the less your units meet the oponent at the same time.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Thanks rigeld. And it's not as if it is time consuming or hard to position them as such. I am really tired of all the talks as if every army has ranged ID large blasts. Lets be honest, we are only considering the riptide here, and in that match up those two extra seconds of measuring are obviously well worth it.
@steamdraon, didn't intend on being insulting. However it is my opinion that if you can't fathom the very basics of model placement and coherency in a competitive setting, then yes, you have much bigger issues then unit selection.
The last few posts illustrate that people don't understand how to play warriors before passing harsh judgements on them.
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Post by: rigeld2
Agreed. They're not great for a frontline assault unit - and that's not what I use them for.
Backfield scoring/synapse for far cheaper than a Tervigon (which is what some people are promoting) and more survivable than a 2 zoeys in a less crowded slot.
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Post by: felixcat
Here is my problem with the new codex ... I really cannot win if the game ends turn six. I need it to end early. When I played the old codex I was actually gaining steam and tabling late thanks to biomancyand Tervigon/Gants synergy.Now this is done. Tervigons are still okay but not what they were and although the psychic powerws are good they are not biomancy toughness buffs which we need. I understand why people are building very aggressive lists. We need to do early damage and then hold on as the opponent will surely target all our synapse. It makes deployment and positioning much more sritical and it shoehorns us into afding units for synapse that are a bit more durable. I was having this conversation elsewhere after playing a few games (Nids are not my main army)
http://www.thedarkcity.net/t6960p280-a-tdc-blog-tactics-unit-analysis-batreps-observations#bottom
I don't want to feel constricted into taking certain units. But it is very hard to ignore the need to reduce IB ...
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Post by: ductvader
streamdragon wrote:
ductvader wrote:
5 Warriors are almost exactly as durable as 10 Tac Marines for the same cost until you figure AP4 weapons into the mix...
AP4 being such an uncommon AP!
Indeed. On standard infantry troops, once we start to take all the AP4 into account on non-troops then you have to also get out of the vacuum with the bugs as well.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Niiai wrote:The warrior is like a lot of the tyranids units a little bit of both. It is mellee and shooting. Baring synapse there are better choises in the troop selection. Gaunt shoot better and are better in close combat for their points.
The argument for warrior is to load them up for melee (wich shrikes do better) or give them a bio cannon and start laying down templates. Also synapse.
A warrior is autonomous which is huge, and point for point more resilient then genestealers while being decent at shooting and having ever important synapse. A stalk warrior unit is better at shooting and assault then the equivalent gants stock.
Again 120 pts of warriors buys you 12 T4 4+ wounds. Its gets you 30 wounds of gants however they are t3 5+ wounds tat require a synapse tax. This is a hidden cost people fail to understand meaning they really are more pts then they seem. further more those 30 wounds are no more resilient to volume of fire then the 12. Sure they are better vs AT but they also contribute nothing until end of game. Furthermore their survival is no longer enough as again they require additional synapse models survival as well. So if you need a synapse model in range end of game anyway, why not take the ones that score and don't waste elite and HQ slots?
Not saying its the best or only way, but people really need to give them another go before writing them off.
Personally, I think termigants and tervogons are worthless in this edition. Warriors, genestealers and horms are much better. Horms can keep up with the flyrant synapse and are a cheap swarm that scores, Genes and warriors are your late game tickets and insurance.
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Post by: streamdragon
Red Corsair wrote:Thanks rigeld. And it's not as if it is time consuming or hard to position them as such. I am really tired of all the talks as if every army has ranged ID large blasts. Lets be honest, we are only considering the riptide here, and in that match up those two extra seconds of measuring are obviously well worth it.
@steamdraon, didn't intend on being insulting. However it is my opinion that if you can't fathom the very basics of model placement and coherency in a competitive setting, then yes, you have much bigger issues then unit selection.
The last few posts illustrate that people don't understand how to play warriors before passing harsh judgements on them.
1. There are plenty of other S8+ large templates other than the Riptide. Battle Cannons ( IG, CSM), Demolisher Cannons ( SM, IG, CSM), Particle Whips (Necrons), etc. etc.
2. You talk about positioning like there is never a reason you should be less than 2". Getting into cover, moving between terrain or other units, heck, even someone Tank Shocking you are all fairly common situations that can force you closer than maximum coherency.
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Post by: ductvader
Also, if we're talking about the Riptide, you need to take into account that he's just going to 3 shot an MC, not template him.
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Post by: Red Corsair
streamdragon wrote: Red Corsair wrote:Thanks rigeld. And it's not as if it is time consuming or hard to position them as such. I am really tired of all the talks as if every army has ranged ID large blasts. Lets be honest, we are only considering the riptide here, and in that match up those two extra seconds of measuring are obviously well worth it.
@steamdraon, didn't intend on being insulting. However it is my opinion that if you can't fathom the very basics of model placement and coherency in a competitive setting, then yes, you have much bigger issues then unit selection.
The last few posts illustrate that people don't understand how to play warriors before passing harsh judgements on them.
1. There are plenty of other S8+ large templates other than the Riptide. Battle Cannons ( IG, CSM), Demolisher Cannons ( SM, IG, CSM), Particle Whips (Necrons), etc. etc.
2. You talk about positioning like there is never a reason you should be less than 2". Getting into cover, moving between terrain or other units, heck, even someone Tank Shocking you are all fairly common situations that can force you closer than maximum coherency.
And this is when you start reaching for those straws I see.
1. Literally every platform that currently has a battle canon sucks this edition, full stop.
Sorry we are literally only considering the riptide in a competition environment with regard to s8 large blasts.
2. Yes I am. If your own units are getting in the way then your playing wrong. You don't know how to deploy, or you have no idea how to move your units. If impassible terrain is creating some sort of bottle neck then you probably have terrain to squat behind with your warriors so I still don't see your point.
I LOL'd at the tank shocking, if they are resorting to TS your warriors then you have no reason not to win that game. Or lose it depending on how that occurred.
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Post by: streamdragon
And we just move into full ad hom mode. Fair enough.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Nice cop out, now address my points.
Edit: I would seriously love some examples of what you consider a good IG, Chaos, or necron list are.
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Post by: Jancoran
bodazoka wrote:That is a super interesting way to look at a list, thank you for giving me that insight. I fall into the damage output category without even realizing it! you just naturally tend to move towards the unit's that provide the most Dakka!
I will certainly have a look at that and see if I can utilize some of what you are talking about.
Some of the Tau battle reports I have done would be good reading for you. Perhaps look at my blog and see what I do there. also the Eldar and Dark Eldar information I post has and uses identical tactica.
in 5E I would deploy a single Broadside in either corner (plus two shield drones) and a Commander. Your turn! Thats How I deployed. Sometimes a unit of Pathfinders would be there also in the dead center and FAR back. Enemy would lose vehicles until they came for me. with two shield drones, it migfht take more of their own tanks dead than they could afford to try and shoot the broadsides dead, so onward the enemy pressed towards the Broadsides in disparate corners. Isolating themselves. As they tore for objectives, they continue to isolate more units with little damage to show for it.
and when the third turn arrives and they are as isolated as you can ever hope for, the crashing wave of reserves came in and started picking off the pocxkets of enemies one by one. Three rounds of slaughter, wherein the enemy pockets are too far from each other to do more than feed the grinder.
Tau victory.
Tyranid artillery can probably do this also. Obviously the requirement to bring on 1/2 the force is there but a smart player will realize which units go well with the Artillery during the early stages where all you wanna do is pump out damage enemies cant ignore and force them into those pockets... and then the wave comes.
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Post by: rigeld2
I did this with our old codex and pods.
Now with my refusal to use Trygons/Mawlocs I'm stuck just trying to ram it home with a vanguard of Carnifexes.
Which is fun in its own right.
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Post by: Niiai
Red Corsair you are arguing quite untastefull there. There are better ways to get your points across then saying "I am right, you are wrong". You will also dictate the situation so it is always ideal for your argument. A lot of good points have been made, you have your opinions on them but I am not sold.
4 points for a gaunt with a BS3 S4AP5 is quite good. 8 points for a devourer gaunt is nice. You think they are bad as they need synapse from another unit, as opposed to warriors. But quite often the 40 point gaunt unit camping the objective will be right next to a creature with synapse anyway. Depending on the terrain there are many situations where this is ideal. Even withouth synapse a 10 model gaunt unit can hold an objective as long as you keep the rest of their army out of shooting range. (It is very unlikly they will make a leadership test if they do get shot.)
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Post by: Red Corsair
Niiai wrote:Red Corsair you are arguing quite untastefull there. There are better ways to get your points across then saying "I am right, you are wrong". You will also dictate the situation so it is always ideal for your argument. A lot of good points have been made, you have your opinions on them but I am not sold.
4 points for a gaunt with a BS3 S4AP5 is quite good. 8 points for a devourer gaunt is nice. You think they are bad as they need synapse from another unit, as opposed to warriors. But quite often the 40 point gaunt unit camping the objective will be right next to a creature with synapse anyway. Depending on the terrain there are many situations where this is ideal. Even withouth synapse a 10 model gaunt unit can hold an objective as long as you keep the rest of their army out of shooting range. (It is very unlikly they will make a leadership test if they do get shot.)
There is a difference to being to the point and blunt and being rude. IMO I am not being rude. Discussions in these threads continuously get muddied by false information. I said my intent wasn't to offend, but I am not going to tiptoe around claims that tank shock of all things makes warriors bad. Come on. Furthermore, as I stated, and I'll state it again for completeness. If you don't fully understand how to properly space your models or deploy them, let alone move them, then there is no merit to your claims. How can someones initial position be expect to be taken seriously in a tactical debate when they don't fully grasp the fundamentals of the game? It doesn't demean the player in any way, but clearly they need to re-address the situation and play the unit to it's full potential before making such poorly informed claims.
The claim that large blasts devastate them was debunked, so that was ignored. I pointed out that Ion accelerators were the only prevalent source anyway and he claimed battle canons, demolisher canons and particle whips were all common, which just is not true. Maybe in his corner, but for the large majority this is not true. I play IG, chaos and necrons and all those units are terrible in 6th.
Now to address your point about gants, your example about being shot is irrelevant, as IB checks happen regardless of whether your being shot. With LD6 you probably will flee off that objective. Also note you still haven't addressed the hidden tax I was talking about. They are not really 4ppm because you need synapse and in fact it makes them much worse then you think when you consider our opponent doesn't need to shoot your gants, not one unit, heck you could wind up with many small OR large units by turn 4 or 5 on objectives and guess what? Your opponent doesn't need to address a single one, they just need to shoot at your synapse to bring it all toppling down. I also disagree that they have decent shooting( I have never heard a sm CC scout referred to as a good shooter), best thing they had going for them last book was free poison from tervigons which made them better at assault them most other armies dedicated assault units (see assault marines ) but thats gone, so by in large they are massive point sinks especially with that almost required tervigon. Your HQ flyrants are way upfield so what does that leave you with? Zoanthropes instead of that tervigon, well again now thats another 50 point tax and another huge Achilles heal, but beyond that you even addressed it yourself, all your gants need to be near it which makes grabbing multiple objectives nearly impossible. Imagine if tactical marines required a captain within 12" in order to score, suddenly combat squads is a moot ability isn't it? Your also using to stones on one bird now.
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Post by: Niiai
The line between rudeness and to the pint is a very thin line when you communicate by writing.
I re-read the entry, I thought they had "hunt" and not "lurk". This makes them much worse. (In fact the mellee gaunts are better as they will only half their number in they fail the test once they loose synapse.) They are still good for grabbing objectives close to where the action will be. They are not as fail safe as the warriors, but taking 10 for a cheap scoring unit in your army, or taking more with devouerer still seems good. You get 11 dakka gaunts for the same point as you get 3 dakka warriors.
Also I think you are discarding the S templates to easaly. In my enviorment there are a lot of competetive to semi competative lists. The chances of they brining along one big high S pie plate is there. And if they do, and I bring warriors, that pie plate goes from being not competetive, as you would say it, to being very comptetve in this particular machup. If the tau plate is the only descent one, then is this not a valid point as it is the most promenent one that you will likely meet? I do not have the books on me but the flying necron death ray is also high S is it not?
You stil have some good points. I would love to see warriors on the table. Of course if you are buying warriors, why not buy shrikes? You only use them for backfield scooring?
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Post by: ductvader
Niiai wrote:The line between rudeness and to the pint is a very thin line when you communicate by writing.
I re-read the entry, I thought they had "hunt" and not "lurk". This makes them much worse. (In fact the mellee gaunts are better as they will only half their number in they fail the test once they loose synapse.) They are still good for grabbing objectives close to where the action will be. They are not as fail safe as the warriors, but taking 10 for a cheap scoring unit in your army, or taking more with devouerer still seems good. You get 11 dakka gaunts for the same point as you get 3 dakka warriors.
Also I think you are discarding the S templates to easaly. In my enviorment there are a lot of competetive to semi competative lists. The chances of they brining along one big high S pie plate is there. And if they do, and I bring warriors, that pie plate goes from being not competetive, as you would say it, to being very comptetve in this particular machup. If the tau plate is the only descent one, then is this not a valid point as it is the most promenent one that you will likely meet? I do not have the books on me but the flying necron death ray is also high S is it not?
You stil have some good points. I would love to see warriors on the table. Of course if you are buying warriors, why not buy shrikes? You only use them for backfield scooring?
Shrikes are for shenanigans...Warriors are for MSU synapse and a long range gun.
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Post by: Zach
I'd like a discussion from a few of you on arming Trygon Prime with Reaper of Obliterax.
In three games I've had Trygon Prime fail to disable tanks with his 5 smash attacks. I'm also tired of some high initiative guys with tons of attacks trumping him. I was thinking giving him the shredding/instant death capability with I7 would be a 'poor mans Swarmlord' in the opponents backfield. However this is bringing him up to 275pts, for a unit that has to sit there for a turn.
Typically I dont bring him in danger close. This is a list I am considering him with:
2000pts TAC
Flyrant w/Regen, HVC and Devourers
2 Hive Guard
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
3xWarriors (deathspitters and barbed)
3xWarriors (deathspitters and barbed)
22 Gargoyles
Crone
Crone
Mawloc
3xCarnifex (All have 1 devourer, then 2 Stranglethorn/1 HVC)
Trygon Prime w/Reaper
Low on troops, yea. But a LOT is being pushed into the opponent and the Warriors end up camping with venomthrope assists. Both crones, Mawloc, and Trygon deep strike, and that Carnifex brood cant be ignored. So is my opponent going to divert shots to deal with Objective capping? The alternative here is HC on the Tyrant and Outflanking 20 gants with some devourers thrown in, to further add to the backfield assault, at the expense of one warrior brood and some goyles.
That Reaper is essentially worth a termagant brood though. Too risky or yet another unignorable threat?
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Post by: Red Corsair
Niiai wrote:The line between rudeness and to the pint is a very thin line when you communicate by writing.
I re-read the entry, I thought they had "hunt" and not "lurk". This makes them much worse. (In fact the mellee gaunts are better as they will only half their number in they fail the test once they loose synapse.) They are still good for grabbing objectives close to where the action will be. They are not as fail safe as the warriors, but taking 10 for a cheap scoring unit in your army, or taking more with devouerer still seems good. You get 11 dakka gaunts for the same point as you get 3 dakka warriors.
Also I think you are discarding the S templates to easaly. In my enviorment there are a lot of competetive to semi competative lists. The chances of they brining along one big high S pie plate is there. And if they do, and I bring warriors, that pie plate goes from being not competetive, as you would say it, to being very comptetve in this particular machup. If the tau plate is the only descent one, then is this not a valid point as it is the most promenent one that you will likely meet? I do not have the books on me but the flying necron death ray is also high S is it not?
You stil have some good points. I would love to see warriors on the table. Of course if you are buying warriors, why not buy shrikes? You only use them for backfield scooring?
I couldn't agree more, and in fact that's exactly why I use disclaimers, but that being said people will almost always take whats written on forums the wrong way and be offended eventually so I tend to just be to the point, direct and assure I am not being personal. Some will love it and others hate it, but its their choice how they take it.
Problem I have with dakka gants is now they aren't worth their cost IMO. You might get one good volley off before they are killed. Generally you want them to hide and score right? So my question is, why double their cost and buy them an upgrade that only acts to tempt you into a misplay. Having those 10 devil gants just makes y9u want to shoot that enemy even though you need to move them closer. AT 8 ppm they now cost the same as a guardian while being worse at every single duty, not worth it.
IMO, if your going to do small gribblies, hormagaunts are the much better buy. They are WAY more mobile which helps you:
A. get there
B. keep up with the flyrants
This means you have avoided that synapse tax over termigants who would be left behind from your FHT and require a backfield synapse creature.
Please give me an example of a list you have seen that has high strength blasts other then a riptide?
As for THE riptide, consider this. A riptide with a buff mander can kill 2 warriors a turn or deal 3 wounds to a tervigon. Those 2 warriors are 60 points. Those 3 tervigon wounds are 97.5 and when she goes not only do you lose your gants synapse anchor and a scoring unit but she blows up gants forcing immediate checks on the spot.
Not to sound doom and gloom, but Tau are a nightmare matchup anyway.
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Post by: Niiai
I am not gone list lists, I am just saying that when playing tournaments you will sometimes meet them.
How would you kite out the warriors then? 3 or 4 bare with a big S4 template gun?
Edit: For the list one person sugested: "3xCarnifex (All have 1 devourer, then 2 Stranglethorn/1 HVC)" Why the one heavy venom cannon? If you are targeting something the weanom cannon is good as, shurly you are vasting your strangelthorn shots and other way around?
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Post by: ductvader
Personally  Iechine wrote: Flyrant w/Regen, HVC and Devourers lose the regen 2 Hive Guard lose these guys Venomthrope Venomthrope 3xWarriors (deathspitters and barbed) lose the deathspitters 3xWarriors (deathspitters and barbed) lose the deathspitters 22 Gargoyles Crone Crone Mawloc 3xCarnifex (All have 1 devourer, then 2 Stranglethorn/1 HVC) Trade the devourers for deathspitters Trygon Prime w/Reaper you now have 190 pts to play with and have lost minimal survivability or damage output Take a Haruspex?
Though with a little playing, you could get some real gribblies or stealers in there.
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Post by: Zach
Haruspex vs 3 Zoanthrope brood, there. Haruspex sucks but he's still an MC that armorbane's tanks.
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Post by: streamdragon
Red Corsair wrote:
There is a difference to being to the point and blunt and being rude. IMO I am not being rude. Discussions in these threads continuously get muddied by false information. I said my intent wasn't to offend, but I am not going to tiptoe around claims that tank shock of all things makes warriors bad. Come on. Furthermore, as I stated, and I'll state it again for completeness. If you don't fully understand how to properly space your models or deploy them, let alone move them, then there is no merit to your claims. How can someones initial position be expect to be taken seriously in a tactical debate when they don't fully grasp the fundamentals of the game? It doesn't demean the player in any way, but clearly they need to re-address the situation and play the unit to it's full potential before making such poorly informed claims.
The claim that large blasts devastate them was debunked, so that was ignored. I pointed out that Ion accelerators were the only prevalent source anyway and he claimed battle canons, demolisher canons and particle whips were all common, which just is not true. Maybe in his corner, but for the large majority this is not true. I play IG, chaos and necrons and all those units are terrible in 6th.
1. Please cite where I said those weapons were "common". My post merely states that they exist. Shock, gasp, surprise, some people still play "terrible" units in friendly games. I have a friend that loves his defilers, another that plays naked Leman Russes. I suspect I am not unique in this regard.
2. Please cite where I said tank shock makes warriors bad. I said that tank shock can force you to end up in a state other than perfect 2" coherency. Sisters, in particular, used to be fond of the tactic. (Though I could understand if you've never seen a Sisters player, considering their relative rarity.) Being in less than perfect 2" coherency, as the pictures on the previous page showed, would then allow multiple warriors to be hit. That is simple fact. That is all I was arguing.
In fact, please cite where I said warriors were bad anywhere in this thread.
Allow me to spare you some time. I said none of those things. In fact, the only real comment I made to the viability of warriors is that the issues they had during the last codex, they still have. This is plainly true, given that there were no appreciable changes to warriors. They can take Fleshhooks now, and their previously free rending claws now cost 5 points. That is all.
But by all means, don't let that get in the way of your grandstanding.
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Post by: Red Corsair
Niiai wrote:I am not gone list lists, I am just saying that when playing tournaments you will sometimes meet them.
But that was the point. People say warriors suck due to X unit types with S8 Large blasts but when asked to produce a example they suddenly clam up. Sometimes meeting a poor unit choice that is situational for being decent against your warriors is not a reason not to bring them.
Sure sometimes you see Doomsday arks or monoliths, but those units are way over priced and not very effective.
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Post by: rigeld2
I would never trade the Devourers for Deathspitters. Even at 5 points I don't think the TL Spitters are worth it when compared to the slightly more expensive but amazeballs Brainleech Devs.
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Post by: Zach
rigeld2 wrote:I would never trade the Devourers for Deathspitters. Even at 5 points I don't think the TL Spitters are worth it when compared to the slightly more expensive but amazeballs Brainleech Devs.
Yea those would stay, their glancing of tanks to death (and sometimes even fliers thanks to the twin linking) makes them stay. I'm enjoying the 18 shots when Im close enough, but also enjoy the 3 cannons shooting on turn 1 too. I think all devourers on a brood of 3 is overkill, especially in the vehicle department which is what they typically go after around here.
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Post by: ductvader
rigeld2 wrote:I would never trade the Devourers for Deathspitters. Even at 5 points I don't think the TL Spitters are worth it when compared to the slightly more expensive but amazeballs Brainleech Devs.
Deathspitters do about half the damage of a devourer for a third of the cost. Once you factor in army it's a completely different story...but if you're handling armor...take two devourers.
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Post by: Niiai
Well there where some reports of warriors being good once 6th edition hit after we saw the reduce of rocket launchers.
My experiense with warriors in the old codex was that they died 24/7 during 5th edition and that was when I stopped using them. With the point rediction elsewhere in the book warriors might just be viable by the sheer fact that your oponent can not shoot everything you bring to the table. (My regular opponents usualy brought 5th edition parking lot lists until I switched to the tervigon for reliable synapse.)
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Post by: rigeld2
ductvader wrote:rigeld2 wrote:I would never trade the Devourers for Deathspitters. Even at 5 points I don't think the TL Spitters are worth it when compared to the slightly more expensive but amazeballs Brainleech Devs.
Deathspitters do about half the damage of a devourer for a third of the cost. Once you factor in army it's a completely different story...but if you're handling armor...take two devourers.
Less than half the damage - fewer shots, lower strength. The fact that they're AP5 is mostly irrelevant. The fact that S6 doubles out DE with FNP, IG characters, Coteaz, etc. and S5 doesn't...
That's just not a trade I'd ever make. I'd cut most anything else usually.
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Post by: Zach
So...about that Trygon and Reaper... Any thoughts?
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Post by: Jancoran
No one is talking much about the Trygon, but I'm not surprised. CROWDED FOC, which makes for lot of variety.
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Post by: Red Corsair
streamdragon wrote: Red Corsair wrote:
There is a difference to being to the point and blunt and being rude. IMO I am not being rude. Discussions in these threads continuously get muddied by false information. I said my intent wasn't to offend, but I am not going to tiptoe around claims that tank shock of all things makes warriors bad. Come on. Furthermore, as I stated, and I'll state it again for completeness. If you don't fully understand how to properly space your models or deploy them, let alone move them, then there is no merit to your claims. How can someones initial position be expect to be taken seriously in a tactical debate when they don't fully grasp the fundamentals of the game? It doesn't demean the player in any way, but clearly they need to re-address the situation and play the unit to it's full potential before making such poorly informed claims.
The claim that large blasts devastate them was debunked, so that was ignored. I pointed out that Ion accelerators were the only prevalent source anyway and he claimed battle canons, demolisher canons and particle whips were all common, which just is not true. Maybe in his corner, but for the large majority this is not true. I play IG, chaos and necrons and all those units are terrible in 6th.
1. Please cite where I said those weapons were "common". My post merely states that they exist. Shock, gasp, surprise, some people still play "terrible" units in friendly games. I have a friend that loves his defilers, another that plays naked Leman Russes. I suspect I am not unique in this regard.
2. Please cite where I said tank shock makes warriors bad. I said that tank shock can force you to end up in a state other than perfect 2" coherency. Sisters, in particular, used to be fond of the tactic. (Though I could understand if you've never seen a Sisters player, considering their relative rarity.) Being in less than perfect 2" coherency, as the pictures on the previous page showed, would then allow multiple warriors to be hit. That is simple fact. That is all I was arguing.
In fact, please cite where I said warriors were bad anywhere in this thread.
Allow me to spare you some time. I said none of those things. In fact, the only real comment I made to the viability of warriors is that the issues they had during the last codex, they still have. This is plainly true, given that there were no appreciable changes to warriors. They can take Fleshhooks now, and their previously free rending claws now cost 5 points. That is all.
But by all means, don't let that get in the way of your grandstanding.
Move that post 
We were discussing warrior survivability in the current meta.
I said the most prevalent ID blast was the IA on the riptide. You claimed battle canons among other poor examples were counters. Things that are not even remotely competitive or seen in the competitive meta. But I guess you just like pointing out useless bits of information.
Further more your tank shock response was directly related to the discussion involving these blasts, Sisters have nothing to do with it. Tankshocking a backfield unit seems laughably unlikely and further more when paired by a high S large blast is a bad idea for said tank. In fact the template can't be placed if any of it would hit a friendly.
Warriors didn't need to change, the meta around them changed as well as other units in competing slots. That in itself can make a unit viable. Automatically Appended Next Post: Niiai wrote:Well there where some reports of warriors being good once 6th edition hit after we saw the reduce of rocket launchers.
My experiense with warriors in the old codex was that they died 24/7 during 5th edition and that was when I stopped using them. With the point rediction elsewhere in the book warriors might just be viable by the sheer fact that your oponent can not shoot everything you bring to the table. (My regular opponents usualy brought 5th edition parking lot lists until I switched to the tervigon for reliable synapse.)
That's exactly it. I used to play missile spam wolves so I know how rough it used to be. My wolves are no longer viable however as well as most parking lots. Missiles are much scarcer as well which makes warriors much more appealing, but just the change to venomthropes alone makes them SO much more durable.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
I'm wondering... do we have enough consensus yet to put some general guidance into the OP so people can go there and get some ideas about what seems to be working?
There doesn't have to be agreement on everything... but are there some things that seem to be solid enough to recommend?
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Post by: Niiai
Gitspitta your request for some information in the original post is good. It just seems to be a lot of different oppinions. And while some might be a bit nieche, a lot of the units are very playable!
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Post by: Stompzilla
ductvader wrote: Dozer Blades wrote:I am not a fan of the bastion nor feel it is MUST TAKE. Those points can go towards more bugz which is more win.
Indeed, though after creating your own bug bastion, you might think otherwise.
I've also made my own dead bug defense lines, skynest, and I'm working on the bugstorm redoubt right now.
I demand pictures! That sounds awesome.
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Post by: Jancoran
Well i just cannot see a way around the idea that a Hive Crone is important to all lists. you gotta get some anti-air up there. At least one seems a mandatory addition. The alternatives to anti-air just aren't prolific. So unless you think a ton of twin linked shots will down the bird and you can get the angle on it you need consistently, this seems like a basic building block.
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Post by: Zach
Definitely, Im a fan of two.
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Post by: Jancoran
So we can argue about how many but i think we can agree that a Hive Crone could be seen as an "auto include" (I HATE that term, but it seems likely that it should be). It also frees up your Tyrant to do more productive things with HIS shooting potentially, if you use one in the skies above.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
EDIT:
I also think a pair of Termagaunt squads is pretty much a no brainer BEFORE including Hormagaunts. Im not saying dont include Hormagaunts. Im saying your first two troops should BE Tervigons. Again, how many is debatable, but that much is probably not. I personally feel 30 apiece to be an excellent idea though.
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Post by: Gitsplitta
"Tervigon squads"?? A 30-strong squad of Tervi's would be an impressive sight. 
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Post by: Jancoran
Outflank one and watch the horror in the enemies eyes as like 90 shots go flying into X
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Post by: tag8833
Harpy vs. Gargoyles.
Both fill a similar role, Anti-infantry / fast / draw fire away from other units.
It feels like Harpy with a HVC. TL + High strength = a good match.
However, for the same cost I can run 23 and 1/3 Gargoyles.
or to expand it to full fast attack slots.
Harpy + HVC
Harpy + HVC
Harpy + HVC
vs
20 Gargoyles
30 Gargoyles
20 Gargoyles
The harpy can damage armor a bit better, but the Gargoyles are a better tarpit.
I guess my question is: doesn't it seem like 70 Gargoyles are a lot more threatening than 3 Harpies? Is there an argument for a mix of both? What are the odds that each kill its points worth?
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Post by: Jancoran
Ive not seen people advocating Harpies much anyways. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Gitsplitta wrote:"Tervigon squads"?? A 30-strong squad of Tervi's would be an impressive sight.
I meant Termagaunt.
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
We've tried harpy/crone and two crones... much prefer the latter but too early to say for definite. Crone easily made back the points both times, not sure the harpy did much.
We're running 19 Gargoyles at the mo - they always die but I reckon they're even more crucial at the moment, to draw fire from the flyrants. The lack of pods has forced us into more flyers. Maybe that was the evil GW plan.
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Post by: felixcat
This is exactly what I meant when I said we were being shoehorned into certain constructs. I think we need to go outside the box.
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Post by: Razerous
I'm feeling having a small squad of infantry (Warriors, gants or gaunts) to make use of the Tervigons outflank could be good.
Alternatively, how would outflanking a 30-strong squad. Large footprint, easier to capture synapse.
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Post by: tag8833
 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:We've tried harpy/crone and two crones... much prefer the latter but too early to say for definite. Crone easily made back the points both times, not sure the harpy did much.
We're running 19 Gargoyles at the mo - they always die but I reckon they're even more crucial at the moment, to draw fire from the flyrants. The lack of pods has forced us into more flyers. Maybe that was the evil GW plan.
What kind of lists are you facing that Crones are being effective against? Flyers? Mech?
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Post by: badula
give an advice i've found that if buy a venom and biovore i could assemble a 1500 force like this
1x dakkaflyrant with hive commander old adversary regen
OOE
1 veno
1 zoa
30xterma
tervigon cluster spines and miasma cannon
1x hive crone
1x biovore
1x dakkafex with regen
1x exocrine
if you have some suggestions please i'd like to use what i have first so choose from the following leftovers:
40xhorma
1 box of new warriors
10 x gargoyles
1box of new hive guards
1xlictor
do you think it could be viable? I mean VIABLE so it could give some nice matches not superextraultramegapro, othewise i know you would suggest 2xflyrants!^^
mind also i have to paint ALL OF THEM so boyz over toyz is not as good as it sounds to me!^^
i was thinking of letting the tervigon flank....
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Post by: Abandon
I used a Trygon Prime + Reaper in a tourny last week and then again in a casual game two days ago. It's great if you can get into melee with a tough unit as it's likely to kill a Wraith Knight before it even gets a chance to strike with I7 + ID on 6's + rerolls to wound + 7 attacks on the charge and no armor saves. For me that's worth it because those and Melee Daemon armies are fairly common for me to see in my games. Getting it into CC is the problem as a wise opponent will usually avoid it like the plague and try to gun it down from a distance. Even that serves a purpose though with proper threat saturation.
Is it worth it's points? Depends on what force you face BTH. The 3 Vendetta IG army at a 1250 limit will not care about it. With or without the Reaper the Trygon dies just the same to shooting, their troops die all the same in CC and it won't help you bring down any zooming flyers.
It will help you bust tanks, kill assault marines, Daemons, etc. so it depends on your meta, your style of play and your other unit selections.
All in all I'd say it ups his CC effectiveness by 0-50% depending on whats across the table from you. The question is do you really need to increase you Trygon Primes melee ability? Like I said, It's worth it for me but I can't answer that for you and that's a bit to many points to shrug off as 'extra'.
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Post by: milo
Why not swap the Harpies for Crones, save some points, and convert at least one squad of stealers to Lictors, so you can use Pheremone trail to DS your Mawlocs without scatter?
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Post by: Looky Likey
So I'm playing a UM drop pod list with added Tyrannic Vets in a couple of weeks and I'm wondering what sort of list is going to be best to avoid getting alpha striked off the table, bubble wrapping the big stuff to absorb the alpha, heavy with the flyers to be more out maneuverable, or going for a heavy reserve army and playing him at his own game?
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Post by: ductvader
Abandon wrote:
I used a Trygon Prime + Reaper in a tourny last week and then again in a casual game two days ago. It's great if you can get into melee with a tough unit as it's likely to kill a Wraith Knight before it even gets a chance to strike with I7 + ID on 6's + rerolls to wound + 7 attacks on the charge and no armor saves. For me that's worth it because those and Melee Daemon armies are fairly common for me to see in my games. Getting it into CC is the problem as a wise opponent will usually avoid it like the plague and try to gun it down from a distance. Even that serves a purpose though with proper threat saturation.
Is it worth it's points? Depends on what force you face BTH. The 3 Vendetta IG army at a 1250 limit will not care about it. With or without the Reaper the Trygon dies just the same to shooting, their troops die all the same in CC and it won't help you bring down any zooming flyers.
It will help you bust tanks, kill assault marines, Daemons, etc. so it depends on your meta, your style of play and your other unit selections.
All in all I'd say it ups his CC effectiveness by 0-50% depending on whats across the table from you. The question is do you really need to increase you Trygon Primes melee ability? Like I said, It's worth it for me but I can't answer that for you and that's a bit to many points to shrug off as 'extra'.
I think Toxin Sacs is about all you need for most of your troubles here.
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Post by: L0rdF1end
I realise that the Heavy slot is rammed with nice choices but I'm surprised to see less use of the Tfex.
175 points for T6 6W 2+ save is just a steal.
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Post by: ductvader
 L0rdF1end wrote:I realise that the Heavy slot is rammed with nice choices but I'm surprised to see less use of the Tfex.
175 points for T6 6W 2+ save is just a steal.
It's a great buy...personally I think the meta is just playing with synergy and fun new ways to run things.
The tyranno just does what he always did, but for about 30% cheaper.
I have a homemade tyranno that will be having an identity crisis...one game a tyranno...the next an exocrine...
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Post by: Niiai
I am also torn about what I want in my list:
Tyranofex, mawlock and exocrine are all exelently prised.
Mawlock is a good threat and very good at contesting objectives. Good vs power armour and terminators and cheap.
T-fex is very hard to put down, can take a torent flamer and another flamer.
The Exocrine can pop transports and it can kill space marines all day. I find that choise hard.
Carnifexes, biovores and trygons does not help.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
When it comes to Heavy Support there are five good options and only 3 slots, so the Tyrannofex has a lot of competition.
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Post by: Moosatronic Warrior
The Tfex is great for making opponents target priority more difficult. The 2+ Sv means that the need to shoot their Lascannons (or similar) at him but MLs and Autocannons (or similar) are only good vs your 3+ Sv MCs. This has forced some opponents to split fire rather than focus all their heavy guns on 1 MC.
I dont think there are any auto includes for nids as so many choices influence each other (mainly due to synapse).
I would say that some disruption units are essential, if you deploy all your bugs in your DZ and hope to rush across the board you wont make it, with any list. Against a gun line it becomes a dice rolling contest, and against mobile shooting armies (nids biggest problem and the current meta favourites) you need pop up in the back field and make it harder for them to run away. Mawlocks are good at this.
Question: Am i right in thinking that 2 Hive tyrants can join one Guard unit? If you do use a walking Tyrant with guard a Flyrant would then be able to "hide" amongst then when needed. Im thinking a Swarmlord +3 Guard + Flyrant deathstar with mawlocs/ lictors. The disruption units come in turn 2 on a 2+ and the Flyrant can launch out to join them but is safe in the Guard unit before then.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Hive tyrants are given permission to Join tyrant guard units, but no such permission to leave. Since they are not IC's, your flyrant would be tied to that group until the tyrant guard were killed.
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Post by: ductvader
 tetrisphreak wrote:Hive tyrants are given permission to Join tyrant guard units, but no such permission to leave. Since they are not IC's, your flyrant would be tied to that group until the tyrant guard were killed.
Not always a bad thing if you need to land for the duration of the game...it does happen.
It's not a plan you want to bank on...but hey, taking swarmy and a flyrant is very plausible.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Hive tyrants are given permission to Join tyrant guard units, but no such permission to leave. Since they are not IC's, your flyrant would be tied to that group until the tyrant guard were killed.
Not always a bad thing if you need to land for the duration of the game...it does happen.
It's not a plan you want to bank on...but hey, taking swarmy and a flyrant is very plausible.
I'm actually Ok with the idea. You can make a pretty tough deathstar with auto-pass look out sir to spread wounds around, with regen on the generic tyrant. Once the guard are finally down by turn 2 or 3, he springs forward with his wings and takes care of any stray flyers or AV10-11 tanks, while swarmlord owns the midfield in CC and buffs the rest of the army with his cunning tactics (preferred enemy/furious charge, etc). It could definitely work, but I just wanted to point out that if the enemy doesn't kill the 2-3 guards, they can't bust up into separate units (which means the enemy might not shoot at your synapse tank....hahaha, yeah right).
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Post by: PrinceRaven
Even if all the Tyrant Guard die the Hive Tyrant and Swarmlord would still be joined to each other.
Also it wouldn't work anyway, only a single Tyrant/Swarmlord may join a unit of Tyrant Guard according the the Shieldwall special rule.
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Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote: ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Hive tyrants are given permission to Join tyrant guard units, but no such permission to leave. Since they are not IC's, your flyrant would be tied to that group until the tyrant guard were killed.
Not always a bad thing if you need to land for the duration of the game...it does happen. It's not a plan you want to bank on...but hey, taking swarmy and a flyrant is very plausible.
I'm actually Ok with the idea. You can make a pretty tough deathstar with auto-pass look out sir to spread wounds around, with regen on the generic tyrant. Once the guard are finally down by turn 2 or 3, he springs forward with his wings and takes care of any stray flyers or AV10-11 tanks, while swarmlord owns the midfield in CC and buffs the rest of the army with his cunning tactics (preferred enemy/furious charge, etc). It could definitely work, but I just wanted to point out that if the enemy doesn't kill the 2-3 guards, they can't bust up into separate units (which means the enemy might not shoot at your synapse tank....hahaha, yeah right).
Here's a question...what if two tyrants are joined to guard and they die? I don't have my book on me, but is there anything that allows the tyrants to even separate from each other? ...and would the guard get rage if just one attached tyrant died? I don't have my book with me...
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Post by: tetrisphreak
ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote: ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:Hive tyrants are given permission to Join tyrant guard units, but no such permission to leave. Since they are not IC's, your flyrant would be tied to that group until the tyrant guard were killed.
Not always a bad thing if you need to land for the duration of the game...it does happen.
It's not a plan you want to bank on...but hey, taking swarmy and a flyrant is very plausible.
I'm actually Ok with the idea. You can make a pretty tough deathstar with auto-pass look out sir to spread wounds around, with regen on the generic tyrant. Once the guard are finally down by turn 2 or 3, he springs forward with his wings and takes care of any stray flyers or AV10-11 tanks, while swarmlord owns the midfield in CC and buffs the rest of the army with his cunning tactics (preferred enemy/furious charge, etc). It could definitely work, but I just wanted to point out that if the enemy doesn't kill the 2-3 guards, they can't bust up into separate units (which means the enemy might not shoot at your synapse tank....hahaha, yeah right).
Here's a question...what if two tyrants are joined to guard and they die? I don't have my book on me, but is there anything that allows the tyrants to even separate from each other?
...and would the guard get rage if just one attached tyrant died?
I don't have my book with me...
I just looked it up and PrinceRaven above is correct - shieldwall only allows 1 tyrant to join a unit of tyrant guard. So no swarmy/flyrant deathstars then.
The fact still stands that you could take a flyrant with regen, and a tyranid prime with regen, and hook them both to a tyrant guard squad if you really wanted a tough brick that metamorphs into a mobile flyrant halfway through the game.
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Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote:The fact still stands that you could take a flyrant with regen, and a tyranid prime with regen, and hook them both to a tyrant guard squad if you really wanted a tough brick that metamorphs into a mobile flyrant halfway through the game.
*just relived the "holy sh*t" moment during Pacific Rim when the Kaiju unfurled his wings and took off*
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Post by: tetrisphreak
ductvader wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:The fact still stands that you could take a flyrant with regen, and a tyranid prime with regen, and hook them both to a tyrant guard squad if you really wanted a tough brick that metamorphs into a mobile flyrant halfway through the game.
*just relived the "holy sh*t" moment during Pacific Rim when the Kaiju unfurled his wings and took off*
I love re-enacting pacific rim when i vs my tau riptides vs my nidzilla lists. Trygon vs Riptide is a great battle.
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Post by: Niiai
Speaking of P. Rim it would be great to have some tyranids painted in fosfirlike colours like they do in that movie. Of course they would be better on a more dark bakground, not a green or white table.
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Post by: AdeptSister
Has anyone had success with Regeneration? It seems like a good buy if you are spending 200+ points on a model.
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Post by: Niiai
The more points you use in a game the worse regeneration is. If you played a 1000 point game regeneration would be ace.
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Post by: rigeld2
I like it on a Tyrannofex. 2+ save, 6W, T6 with Regen. It's a MC that the opponent has to deal with, but it takes a lot of power to do that.
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Post by: MasterOfGaunts
Niiai wrote:The more points you use in a game the worse regeneration is. If you played a 1000 point game regeneration would be ace.
I think it depends. I am planning to test a Hive Tyrant with regeneration and 3 Guards. first 3 wounds go to the Tyrant so he has something to regenerate. All other wounds would be spread equally around the Guard until everyone has just 1 HP.
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Post by: gorgon
MasterOfGaunts wrote: Niiai wrote:The more points you use in a game the worse regeneration is. If you played a 1000 point game regeneration would be ace.
I think it depends. I am planning to test a Hive Tyrant with regeneration and 3 Guards. first 3 wounds go to the Tyrant so he has something to regenerate. All other wounds would be spread equally around the Guard until everyone has just 1 HP.
That's probably the best use of Regen...in situations where you can play some wound allocation games.
I think I'm going to try some Raveners this weekend. No one's really been talking about them, but they look interesting in a list with plenty of MCs. Beast movement is just plain sexy.
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Post by: ductvader
gorgon wrote:MasterOfGaunts wrote: Niiai wrote:The more points you use in a game the worse regeneration is. If you played a 1000 point game regeneration would be ace.
I think it depends. I am planning to test a Hive Tyrant with regeneration and 3 Guards. first 3 wounds go to the Tyrant so he has something to regenerate. All other wounds would be spread equally around the Guard until everyone has just 1 HP.
That's probably the best use of Regen...in situations where you can play some wound allocation games.
I think I'm going to try some Raveners this weekend. No one's really been talking about them, but they look interesting in a list with plenty of MCs. Beast movement is just plain sexy.
Do Red Terror! I ate Draigo in a very risky but obviously worthwhile ploy. It also gives the unit some autonomy with LD8
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Post by: Deshkar
Played White Scars Khan grav spam today, and won, kinda surprised by it. My opponent admitted after the game that he grossly underestimated the return firepower Tyranids can dish out now.
Currently 5-1 with my Tyranids, they're hard to play and quite the finesse army imo. They're like a beautiful stack of cards, that can however come quickly crashing down once you remove key pieces.
But I enjoy it a lot as they play all aspects of the game, psychic, movement, shooting and assault while having fliers, MCs and many lil dudes.
The main problem I have been considering is Eldtau as they're going to be really hard to catch compared to Taudar, and dealing with opponent's Bastions: particularly bastions with centurions and tigurius-__-
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Post by: ductvader
Zoanthropes
They wound you on 5s and you get a 3+ invuln...blast away.
Obviously you'll need other threats on the board as well, adrenal carnifexes seem solid.
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Post by: Niiai
ductvader wrote:
Zoanthropes
They wound you on 5s and you get a 3+ invuln...blast away.
Obviously you'll need other threats on the board as well, adrenal carnifexes seem solid.
I asume a flying MC could do some smash attacks if they do not get shot down?
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Post by: rigeld2
So far my worst matchup was DE... so many poison shots.
I absolutely destroyed a sternguard list that was tailored to beat me.
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Post by: ductvader
Niiai wrote: ductvader wrote:
Zoanthropes
They wound you on 5s and you get a 3+ invuln...blast away.
Obviously you'll need other threats on the board as well, adrenal carnifexes seem solid.
I asume a flying MC could do some smash attacks if they do not get shot down?
True too...or crone missiles, or shock hive guard, or heck, put out the points for a rupture cannon tyranno and do it safely from a distance
Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote:So far my worst matchup was DE... so many poison shots.
I absolutely destroyed a sternguard list that was tailored to beat me.
Was that that 9 dakkafex list?
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Post by: Niiai
De vs Nids is the hardest codex match up in the game, barring specific list like the French bakery.
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Post by: ductvader
Niiai wrote:De vs Nids is the hardest codex match up in the game, barring specific list like the French bakery.
Or Purifier Spam, that's a tough nugget for bugs.
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Post by: Niiai
You are right, but if we are ralking speseific list it gets harder to rank. Archtype list vs Archtype list, or codex vs spesific list or much more nyansed then codex vs codex. Dark eldars and nids are both so far from the main rules in this game. (Marines.) Fringe elements of the rules are never balansed good against each other, although DE sertanly became an easier oponent after the new codex.
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Post by: Roci
Bastions are so so... .a glance or pen risks killing whats inside it right from the jump... fighting other bastions is about the same. I prefer the redoubt because of the range.. and I don't use mine for front line cover.. its just so I can not bring a second flyrant ( all our campaigns around here restrict flyer use)
Most of my other friends are highly competitive tourney players, so I have to put my nids up against Ovesa star, taudar, deer council, daemon Flying circus and biker spam... Sad thing for me is that even the non competitive people play DE so all my battles are uphill from the start... Haven't settled on a list I really like yet but Im narrowing it down.
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Post by: rigeld2
ductvader wrote:rigeld2 wrote:So far my worst matchup was DE... so many poison shots.
I absolutely destroyed a sternguard list that was tailored to beat me.
Was that that 9 dakkafex list?
Only had 4 and a Tyrannofex (was on my motorcycle and that's what fit in my tailbag with the 2 flyrants and 6 warriors for a 1500 point game)
The Sternguard player had some target priority issues, but he fired 40 hellfire rounds at my Tyrannofex, 36 hit, 34 wounded and I took one wound. Which regenerated the next turn.
That alone demoralized him enough to almost concede.
edit to add: I had given the Tyranno FNP because my second Flyrant was out of range to get it.
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Post by: ductvader
 Roci wrote:Most of my other friends are highly competitive tourney players, so I have to put my nids up against Ovesa star, taudar, deer council, daemon Flying circus and biker spam... Sad thing for me is that even the non competitive people play DE so all my battles are uphill from the start... Haven't settled on a list I really like yet but Im narrowing it down.
You need to jump on the Deathleaper formation...like tomorrow...should be perfect for your meta. Automatically Appended Next Post: rigeld2 wrote: ductvader wrote:rigeld2 wrote:So far my worst matchup was DE... so many poison shots.
I absolutely destroyed a sternguard list that was tailored to beat me.
Was that that 9 dakkafex list?
Only had 4 and a Tyrannofex (was on my motorcycle and that's what fit in my tailbag with the 2 flyrants and 6 warriors for a 1500 point game)
The Sternguard player had some target priority issues, but he fired 40 hellfire rounds at my Tyrannofex, 36 hit, 34 wounded and I took one wound. Which regenerated the next turn.
That alone demoralized him enough to almost concede.
edit to add: I had given the Tyranno FNP because my second Flyrant was out of range to get it.
Spunds like a good day to be a tyranno...you give him a second template/blast?
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Post by: gorgon
ductvader wrote: gorgon wrote:MasterOfGaunts wrote: Niiai wrote:The more points you use in a game the worse regeneration is. If you played a 1000 point game regeneration would be ace.
I think it depends. I am planning to test a Hive Tyrant with regeneration and 3 Guards. first 3 wounds go to the Tyrant so he has something to regenerate. All other wounds would be spread equally around the Guard until everyone has just 1 HP.
That's probably the best use of Regen...in situations where you can play some wound allocation games.
I think I'm going to try some Raveners this weekend. No one's really been talking about them, but they look interesting in a list with plenty of MCs. Beast movement is just plain sexy.
Do Red Terror! I ate Draigo in a very risky but obviously worthwhile ploy. It also gives the unit some autonomy with LD8
I'll see if I can squeeze him in. He's pricey, but I like the Ld8 and the T5. And with WS6 and 6 attacks on the charge, Swallow Whole really has a decent shot of going off. Seems like Swallow needs the right target, but there are a lot of characters that wouldn't want to be in a challenge with it just because of the threat.
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
tag8833 wrote: Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:We've tried harpy/crone and two crones... much prefer the latter but too early to say for definite. Crone easily made back the points both times, not sure the harpy did much.
We're running 19 Gargoyles at the mo - they always die but I reckon they're even more crucial at the moment, to draw fire from the flyrants. The lack of pods has forced us into more flyers. Maybe that was the evil GW plan.
What kind of lists are you facing that Crones are being effective against? Flyers? Mech?
First was space marines with lots of armour. We were running two, but it turned out we couldn't borrow the shop one were were promised, so we agreed it could come back on when killed - turned out it lasted the entire game. Amongst other damage, it took out that SM anti-air thing - the Whirlwind? Second, it was less effective for being doubled with the Harpy, in a much tougher battle, the HH Mechanicus, everything was toughness 7
. Are the Crones as effective as the flyrants? Almost certainly not; but four flyers plus gargoyles, which you know will arrive on time, plus the mawloc, go some way to delivering the "oh gak" moments that our pods used to achieve.
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Post by: Niiai
A personal question: How much anti air would one need at 1500 points? I would like to make a 1500 all comers list. But I would also like to not spam the best unit in the codex.
Would I be suficient with a Crone and a flyrant at 1500? It seems mean to use 2 flyrants at 1500. (And a bit boring to play with to be honest.)
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Post by: Roci
ductvader wrote: Roci wrote:Most of my other friends are highly competitive tourney players, so I have to put my nids up against Ovesa star, taudar, deer council, daemon Flying circus and biker spam... Sad thing for me is that even the non competitive people play DE so all my battles are uphill from the start... Haven't settled on a list I really like yet but Im narrowing it down.
You need to jump on the Deathleaper formation...like tomorrow...should be perfect for your meta.
We tend to play based on tourney scenarios and most we attend don't allow formations. I tend to run necrons or white scars when I go to a tourney anyway.. but I'm taking up the challenge to beat these guys with my nids. I'm hoping we get a nifty GS rule or two I can use with the dataslate.
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Post by: Razerous
The TyTyran Paradox
All other armies allow for allies, giving access to a wide variety of options & synergies.
Tyranids, currently, do not have access to any of that. Logic suggests that may get access to ally with themselves.
So following this through to its conclusion, I strongly believe, in the near future, GW will provide some route to effectively provide Tyranids with additional FOC slots. Not sure how or what but they must.
Its fundamentally not competitive in this regard and this is what I'm basing my logic around. I agree, this could be completely flawed.
However, with this all in mind, lets say we all get +1 on all FOC slots, even if it is in a limited capacity (i..e additional Gargoyles and Flyrants but no carnifexes or Tfexes but no stealers), what do you all think is possible?
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Post by: ductvader
Razerous wrote:The TyTyran Paradox
All other armies allow for allies, giving access to a wide variety of options & synergies.
Tyranids, currently, do not have access to any of that. Logic suggests that may get access to ally with themselves.
So following this through to its conclusion, I strongly believe, in the near future, GW will provide some route to effectively provide Tyranids with additional FOC slots. Not sure how or what but they must.
Its fundamentally not competitive in this regard and this is what I'm basing my logic around. I agree, this could be completely flawed.
However, with this all in mind, lets say we all get +1 on all FOC slots, even if it is in a limited capacity (i..e additional Gargoyles and Flyrants but no carnifexes or Tfexes but no stealers), what do you all think is possible?
Comes out tonight, and two more are planned.
You can get 1HQ and 5 Elite slots...sure, they're all lictors but still...and who knows what the stealers will do...and then we have more coming.
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Post by: roxor08
ductvader wrote:Razerous wrote:The TyTyran Paradox
All other armies allow for allies, giving access to a wide variety of options & synergies.
Tyranids, currently, do not have access to any of that. Logic suggests that may get access to ally with themselves.
So following this through to its conclusion, I strongly believe, in the near future, GW will provide some route to effectively provide Tyranids with additional FOC slots. Not sure how or what but they must.
Its fundamentally not competitive in this regard and this is what I'm basing my logic around. I agree, this could be completely flawed.
However, with this all in mind, lets say we all get +1 on all FOC slots, even if it is in a limited capacity (i..e additional Gargoyles and Flyrants but no carnifexes or Tfexes but no stealers), what do you all think is possible?
Comes out tonight, and two more are planned.
You can get 1HQ and 5 Elite slots...sure, they're all lictors but still...and who knows what the stealers will do...and then we have more coming.
What are you guys talking about? Is this the "dataslate" we're supposed to be getting?
I haven't seen anything about it....
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Post by: Gloomfang
It might be out already in some places. Someone claims to have it on the Hive. I would check if I could get the the e-store from work.
Here are the details they posted:
Manufactorum Genestealers
The formations allow your genestealers to set up in ruins or unoccupied building within 6" of your enemy, and have hit and run
5 Stealer broods, but may not include additional stealers
Lictor Forest Brood
Lictor Forest brood formation inside forests can infiltrate up to 6" from the enemy, and have the shrouded rule in forest.
This is 5 broods of a single model.
Deathleaper's Assassin Brood
The Deathleaper brood makes anyone within 12" of a model from the brood have -1 LD - this could be pretty massive combined with a few other rules (shadows, Its after me, the horror, Psychic Shriek ect..)
Deathleaper + 5 lictor broods of 1 model
Broodlord's Hunting Pack
Another Broodlord hunting pack formation when it comes from reserves can deploy into any unoccupied building. It can also be deployed in any ruin terrain during setup as long as its 6" away from the enemy.
They also have hunting pack, which when deployed, your formation has preferred enemy against any nominated enemy unit.
3 Stealer broods and 1 must have a brood lord. only a single broodlord allowed.
Gargoyle Bio-Bombs
The gargoyle bomb is 3 units of gargoyles and 3 units of spore mines, and allows the spore mines when ever they start a move action (move, run , charge) within 6" of a gargoyle to move at 6", or no longer half the distance when running or charging.
Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45107/info-new-dataslate?page=7#ixzz2rLvfOjeV
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Post by: ductvader
@Gloomfang
You just made my day.
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Post by: Gloomfang
Technically Talonis made your day
Personally I find these all to be a little "meh".
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Post by: ductvader
 Gloomfang wrote:
Technically Talonis made your day
Personally I find these all to be a little "meh".
Well you just gave me a great reason to build a fortress of redemption.
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Post by: Niiai
HOw does the data slates work? What are the restrictions? Do you pay exstra for having them?
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Post by: ductvader
Niiai wrote:HOw does the data slates work? What are the restrictions? Do you pay exstra for having them?
I believe they are simply the cost of the models contained within them, nothing extra and outside FoC.
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Post by: Niiai
I do not understand the sugested rules for the broodlord hunting pack?
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Post by: Gloomfang
Niiai wrote:I do not understand the sugested rules for the broodlord hunting pack?
Take 3 broods of genestealers. Add one (and only one) broodlord to one of the broods.
Those broods can infiltrate up to 6" away from an enemy unit (rather than the standard 12") as long as they are infiltrating an empty building or ruin.
Pick one enemy unit (tactical marines, dreadnaughts, riptide, wave serpent) and the 3 broods of genestealers in the formation get Prefered Enemy (tactical marines, dreadnaughts, riptide, wave serpent).
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Post by: Roci
I hope this is not it. Nothing around here or tournaments I've been to allow formations. Even our campaign bans them. Formations make me sad.
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Post by: Gloomfang
Just because Talonis posted some clarifications.
To answer a few:
Broodlord's Hunting Pack: Its 1 brood lord for the formation, not army... my mistake I typed that wrong.
Deathleaper's assassins brood: The -1 Ld does not stack on it's self. The rule "Paranoia and Ill Discipline" - any enemy unit within 12" of one or more models from this formation suffers a -1 penalty to their Leadership Charcteristic.
Manufactorum Genestealers: I would say you can not include Broodlords in this formation, the formation restriction is that the Manufactorum Genestealer Broods may not take additional Genesealers. However you could put a case forward saying that your adding a brood lord, not a genestealer... but we all know that a brood lord is a genestealer beefed up.
All formations belong to the Tyranid Faction, so no one else can ally or use them
My understanding is that these formations are completely separate from your FOC, and unless mentioned no limit on the amount you can take (of course Deathleaper being Unique means you couldn't take multiple)
This is a good way to include Deathleaper without taking up a HQ choice too.
Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45107/info-new-dataslate?page=7#ixzz2rMDCe9Yf
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Post by: Xyptc
Deathleaper's Assassin Brood looks like a real gem here, six individual Lictors all up in your opponent's grill, with a cloud of -1 Leadership.
I'll also be trying out the Broodlord's Hunting Pack as well.
Together with some elements of the codex itself, we have the makings of a pretty viable vanguard-themed force I think.
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Post by: Kovnik Obama
Wow, seems like Christmas is one month late this year...
Suddenly, my genestealers feels a lot less depressed!
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Post by: Gloomfang
A few more clarifications. Nice that the Assassin Brood all gets PE (characters). That might be an auto-include. It also looks like the hunting brood can outflank from a ruin or building.
1. LICTOR FOREST BROOD:
1 Brood of 1-5 Lictors
Special rules: While in forest they have Shroud instead of stealth and can infiltrates up to 6 inches away from an enemy (In forests).
2. MANUFACTORUM GENESTEALERS
5 Genestealer broods
Special rules: They have hit and run and when infiltrating in building or ruins you can infiltrate up to 6 inches away from an enemy.
3. DEATHLEAPER’S ASSASSIN BROOD
5 Lictor broods and Deathleaper
Special rules: They have preferred enemy for characters and independent characters and all enemies have -1 to Ld when in 12 inches of any unit in the formation.
4. BROODLORD’S HUNTING PACK
3 Genestealer broods (with one and only one Broodlord)
Special rules: When entering from reserves they can enter in any unoccupied building or any ruins as long as they are at lease 6 inches away from an enemy. Also they have preferred enemy against a single chosen enemy unit.
5. GARGOYLE BIO-BOMBS
3 Gargoyle broods and 3 spore mine clusters
Special rules: If formation spore mine is 6 inches to a formation Gargoyle it can move 6 inches and runs and charges as normal (no half movment)
Read more: http://thetyranidhive.proboards.com/thread/45289/overview-vanguard-data-slate#ixzz2rMe9aGFk
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Post by: Commander_Farsight
Hey, jy2, is your next part in depth analysis (already done on Eldar and Necrons) going to be on Nids?
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Ok so here's a question -- do the genestealers taken as a formation or the manufactorum broods count as troops? As in, are they scoring and do they take up troop slots?
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Post by: Kovnik Obama
tetrisphreak wrote:Ok so here's a question -- do the genestealers taken as a formation or the manufactorum broods count as troops? As in, are they scoring and do they take up troop slots?
It has been answered somewhere else that that are under the Troop choice in the Dataslate, perhaps implying that yes, they do score. Which is awesome.
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Post by: tetrisphreak
Yup. Already thinking of fitting in some factory genestealers in my lists now.
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Post by: airmang
Looks like disruption is the focus of those formations. Basically shove some units right up to the enemy and make them have to make some tough decisions, and hopefully give the rest of the swarm a turn or two of taking less damage.
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Post by: Abandon
ductvader wrote: Abandon wrote:
I used a Trygon Prime + Reaper in a tourny last week and then again in a casual game two days ago. It's great if you can get into melee with a tough unit as it's likely to kill a Wraith Knight before it even gets a chance to strike with I7 + ID on 6's + rerolls to wound + 7 attacks on the charge and no armor saves. For me that's worth it because those and Melee Daemon armies are fairly common for me to see in my games. Getting it into CC is the problem as a wise opponent will usually avoid it like the plague and try to gun it down from a distance. Even that serves a purpose though with proper threat saturation.
Is it worth it's points? Depends on what force you face BTH. The 3 Vendetta IG army at a 1250 limit will not care about it. With or without the Reaper the Trygon dies just the same to shooting, their troops die all the same in CC and it won't help you bring down any zooming flyers.
It will help you bust tanks, kill assault marines, Daemons, etc. so it depends on your meta, your style of play and your other unit selections.
All in all I'd say it ups his CC effectiveness by 0-50% depending on whats across the table from you. The question is do you really need to increase you Trygon Primes melee ability? Like I said, It's worth it for me but I can't answer that for you and that's a bit to many points to shrug off as 'extra'.
I think Toxin Sacs is about all you need for most of your troubles here.
In most cases your right. What are the odds you going to encounter units that will pose a challenge to a Trygon Prime with TS in CC? I do fairly often but that has more to do with my regular opponents bringing Iron Armed Daemon Princes and the like. The threat of ID changes the the opponents tactical options and is worth the 45 point price tag to me. Is it generally worth it to everyone? Probably not.
I would like to add though that that initiative increase coupled with ID is often the difference between taking one or more wounds in a fight and walking away(consolidating) unscathed. A Trygon Prime with TS will still get murdered by a Wraith Knight in CC where as if he had the Reaper instead it would quite likely ID the Wraith Knight without losing any wounds.
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Post by: ductvader
tetrisphreak wrote:Yup. Already thinking of fitting in some factory genestealers in my lists now.
I'm picking up another brood lord and lictor...I'm one shy of each for the hunting pack and assassin force...and they sound like buckets of fun
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Post by: Deshkar
damn. formations. my area doesn't support it in tournaments.
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Post by: Bulldogging
Wait, is it only formations? Not a true supplement like Tau, etc have received?
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Post by: ductvader
 Bulldogging wrote:Wait, is it only formations? Not a true supplement like Tau, etc have received?
Nope...it's a dataslate...the rumor is that supplements are dead... GW announced something to the effect of the investment not seeing such a great return
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Post by: Gatekeeper
so after a week of reading this gigantic thing........
Toxin Sacs have been understated or missed so far. You can still re-roll missed to wounds because our strength 6, will most likely be higher than their toughness. But you start adding all the biomorphs to any MC and they are no longer cheap. For dedicated CC beasts, I think it's a great weapon (was greater when you could re-roll hits and wounds)
I also agree with the numerous above comments that the tfex is great for the price, I just have a hard time finding room for it in something that works with the rest of the list.
Also what are your takes on shadow in the warp? The first description in the front says -3 for any character near a model with SITW; however, the back "summary" says -3 for each model with SITW. So cumulative?
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Post by: Skwii
And yet still no rumors about new plastic kits for lictors/deathleaper/old-genestealers/broodlord announced ?
Am i missing something ?
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Post by: Jancoran
A friend and I pored over the contents of the codex tonight as he is a veteran of many Tyrannic campaigns.
We dissected the units for about three hours before committing anything to paper. here was our thought after that:
220 Flying Tyrant (Hive Commander)
285 Swarmlord
196 30 Termagaunts (19 x Devourers)
210 Tervigon (Cluster spines, Electroshock Grubs)
162 9 Skyslashers
90 2 VenomThropes
150 3 Zoanthropes
130 5 GeneStealers+ Broodlord
130 5 GeneStealers+ Broodlord
165 3 x HiveGuard
120 3 x Biovores
140 Mawloc
1998pts
Took a while to work this out. We moved units in and out of the matrix to see which ones would do the thing we most wanted them to do and when we would want it. Pretty torn over the Hive Tyrant vs. Hive Crone but we finally decided on the Hive Tyrant. That was an area we talked about a LONG time. The Psyker powers of the Hive Tyrant were a big selling point though. Tyranid Psyker powers are pretty awesome and the more chances you get to give out FnP or to pin the enemy, the better. Its marginal performance against multiple flyers will have to be offset by what it contributes in defense.
Effectively the way it works is that the Broodlords will infiltrate and pin units down (using The Horror). The Zoanthropes roll for a second power may also yield The Horror, though many of the powers would be very good, as they will be helping to provide Synapse and they can do a lot to protect the various broods around them if need be.
We wanted something to counter the Eldar shinanigans with their Serpent hulls, so we included a unit of Hive Guard to help us bring down one or two of those. The fact is, those things can really take on a LOT of things and provide first blood pretty well if given a chance.
The Biovores are just a FANTASTIC tool. It's really amazingly worthwhile to take them. For one, it's a barrage, so yet another chance to pin the enemy (seeing a theme?). For two, for those who've read the rules, it can pump out an incredibly awesome and almost guaranteed blast of great power if it fails initially to do its duty. Talk about a fun unit. AP 4 is awesome against so many armies as well. Interesting tactics came to light while we discussed what a MISS would allows us to do and it was pretty fun to think about. You dont HAVE to ram the spores into anything. They can just form a fence when needed. They can also be used to slow enemy movement, cut off flyer movement and so on. It just has a lot of uses.
The Mawlocs function is fairly obvious: try to intentionally force the mishap so your weapon can go off twice, potentially killing any singular target you want. The important one preferably. Things like Riptides will care LESS, but they won't NOT care entirely! Against Markerlights, and other high value targets it will be immeasurably useful and if the enemy does not kill it, it gets to do it all again. If its not killed, it provides cover and forces the enemy to fire on it. If pinned the enemy may find that more difficult.
Venomthropes are there to protect the brood with Stealth. Der. not much else to say honestly. In a fight with hordes if they survive, they do do a fair amount of potential damage although... That's probably hoping for a lot.
Skyslashers are the spearhead. They can be empowered by the Broodlord and are a serious amount of wounds to get through. High powered weaponry will be forced onto them rather than higher toughness targets for a round to try and double them out, which is a boon to the army. Optionally the enemy might fire behind them to hit Termagaunts BUT if they do, its 3+ saves at worst for intervening models and the Venomthropes, plus of course the Skyslashers are still there and threatening. Also, that leaves less shots to go into my Synapse.
The Hive Tyrant makes the Tervigon outflank, and in effect, allows its babies to have done the same. Great for objective stealing and surprising the enemy flank as well as affecting their deployment. All kinds of plus's. The Swarmlord ensures it and the mawloc come on in turn 2 and keep on coming. This effectively gives the army 5 troops choices. the Swarmlord has an immense radius of Synapse, which will help in the round after reserves arrive since Synapse is not checked on units newly arriving from reserve.
All in all I was pretty pleased with the concept. Anti-horde control for zombi armies is well under control. MEQ armies will find the army more than a match in melee and the availability of dual chargers and fleet units will mitigate the effects of overwatch. The lack of AP 3 is a bit of a blind spot and MEQ will not wilt easily under the shooting, but of course they are Tyranids...
One thing we didn't explore as much yet because we want to see what happens, is whether it makes sense to do two units of Sky slashers instead of one. Not too sure about that part. I think testing will give us a good guess. he plans to give it a whirl tomorrow.
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Post by: PrinceRaven
I'm confused what the Swarmlord is doing in that list besides being a 285 point reserves tax that will get focussed down once the Venomthropes and Flyrant are dead.
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Post by: Skwii
Not sure you considered that : for the same cost of your 9 skyslashers you can get 30 gargoyles which are good at pretty much everything you said skyslashers are. Could be a bigger threat for your opponent though cause he will surely take those down before getting tarpited.
Also huge fan of Swarmy not sure he will fit in really good (waiting for playtesting).
Also you're going towards some kind of pining theme, did you consider adding Harpy ? could fit in well i guess !
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Post by: Jancoran
PrinceRaven wrote:I'm confused what the Swarmlord is doing in that list besides being a 285 point reserves tax that will get focussed down once the Venomthropes and Flyrant are dead.
Ah. Some thoughts on that since we did discuss it.
You will notice that turn 3 is when it can be charging quite assuredly at the latest So what happens is this: The enemy in his wisdom will try to kill the Synapse because thats what he's been told to do.. But that's not so easy. Range can be an issue. Also, There's a high likelihood in this list that they will be FnP (6 rolls on the Psyker table). Second, a high chance of cover saves from terrain, Night fighting (50% of the time in turn one) and of course the Venomthropes. So while the enemy is certainly wise to try to kill the Synapse, the trouble is its a little slower in round 1 to do. A LOT of round ones are uninteresting affairs with First Blood being the key prize.
The other trouble: Skyslashers are at about the 27.5 inch mark in turn 1? So There is going to be a limit to how many units can truly fire at the synapse targets before being silenced for a little while by fearless Swarms. Now I am fully aware that enemies can actually kill the swarms. Oh yeah. if they focus down on them, they might make it through 27 wounds if firing the higher Str stuff into it or else sadrificing a lions share of the firing into it to save bigger shots for bigger game. I cant speak for what the enemy will do, knowing there are 5x9= 45 STR 4 attacks coming on the charge from the Skyslashers. My guess though is that turn one and two will be heavily occupied with handling the matter. If not, well...
We cannot foresee every possibility and its easy to say "Well horde because hordes" to which someone says "Yeah but Manticore because D3 Large Blasts". That gets us nowhere. What we can do is fill the view screen with so many insects that the enemy ignores the closest only at his own discomfort. Saturating it is a sure way to dictate where the fire is going.
So the Swarmlord is awesome. That is why he's in the list. At first we went with a Hive commander and Hive Crone but ater thinking it through we realized how indiffeent the points were and how much easier the Swarmlord can survive enemy fire like you're talking about. There was just 20 points separating our original Flyrant and the Swarmlord and after thinking about it we came to the conclusion that for 20 points, we were getting a hell of a lot that mattered if we made our Crone tougher (i.e. made it a flyrant) and with Psyker awesomeness and deployment shenanigans while making our actual Tyrant a ton tougher and more synergistic.
Many is the tale and battle report of the Flyrants being disassembled by a grounding check and a few shots. its a cliche. They are so exposed all the time. This allows him to absorb way more fire and preserve the scoring units that matter longer. He's not cheap but he's a level 3 Psyker and his Shadows in the Warp is cool, especially when its effects are applied to the targets of Broodlords and such.
This gave us a maximized chance of getting the powers we wanted as well. No small thing since the army depends so much on the approach. His Synapse range is big, and he he can protect the army early on against pre-emptive threats (for example, deep strikers or shunting DreadKnights albeit he's probably in no hurry to fight an Instant Death Weapon but he might be able to stop it from working). He's a load in combat and he doesn't lose often. Cant win em all though. No one can.
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Post by: Enceladus
As far as I understand it the Genestealers taken in the formations would operate outside of the FOC and therefore would not be scoring as they're not technically Troops if taken in a Formation.
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Post by: Jancoran
Skwii wrote:Not sure you considered that : for the same cost of your 9 skyslashers you can get 30 gargoyles which are good at pretty much everything you said skyslashers are. Could be a bigger threat for your opponent though cause he will surely take those down before getting tarpited.
Also huge fan of Swarmy not sure he will fit in really good (waiting for playtesting).
Also you're going towards some kind of pining theme, did you consider adding Harpy ? could fit in well i guess !
Gargoyles were on my mind. 27 Gargoyles might make sense for the same cost and we talked about it. Definitely a good suggestion. Same wounds, but more versatility in the Gargoyles. We chose Skyslashers for their one advantage: fearless without synapse, as they do run ahead of the army, so it can matter. The Fearless aspect is their big plus. Also, they dont lull you into shooting when you shoulda charged. Might not wanna fire 27 gaunts at the expense of the charge and generally the job of this unit is to threaten the charge. if someone goes after synapse they need to know its not going to stop that swarm...which makes them that much more apt to kill the swarm and not other stuff. Automatically Appended Next Post: Enceladus wrote:As far as I understand it the Genestealers taken in the formations would operate outside of the FOC and therefore would not be scoring as they're not technically Troops if taken in a Formation.
It isn't a formation.
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Post by: Kovnik Obama
Enceladus wrote:As far as I understand it the Genestealers taken in the formations would operate outside of the FOC and therefore would not be scoring as they're not technically Troops if taken in a Formation.
They are listed as troops in the dataslate.
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Post by: Xyptc
Minor technical question, is there any way I can buy and access this dataslate without needing an iOS device or a Mac?
I want to make use of the dataslate, but I don't particularly want to buy a new phone, computer or tablet at the moment to do so...
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Post by: Hivefleet Oblivion
Xyptc wrote:Minor technical question, is there any way I can buy and access this dataslate without needing an iOS device or a Mac?
I want to make use of the dataslate, but I don't particularly want to buy a new phone, computer or tablet at the moment to do so...
Just buy the eBook version... I have a feeling it's marginally cheaper, too.
Not overwhelmed by the dataslate, it should cost 20% less than it does for the number of pages, too. But the Broodlord Hunting Packs do improve stealers, and are usable, while the Deathleaper Assassin brood is fun, and presumably frees up HQ and Elite slots.
66712
Post by: Enceladus
 Kovnik Obama wrote:Enceladus wrote:As far as I understand it the Genestealers taken in the formations would operate outside of the FOC and therefore would not be scoring as they're not technically Troops if taken in a Formation.
They are listed as troops in the dataslate.
Interesting... Makes them a little more appealing!
73446
Post by: Terror from the Deep
How about this list:
Dakka flyrant - 230
Dakka flyrant -230
1 x lictor
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Deathleapers brood
1 x deathleaper
5 x lictor
Comes in at 1830. Anything the broodlords hit will be at -3 LD for pinning tests, precision mawloc strikes everywhere and everything starting on the board can be in combat turn 2
1567
Post by: felixcat
Interesting approach Jancoren. Strikes from a lot of different angles. I'm not convinced that the Flyrant is at all durable in the list though. Losing Biomancy was a big deal - there is no way they last long these days.I have to say the list looks like a 40k Unorthodoxy one though. All the different elements of flexible deployment and surprise.
66712
Post by: Enceladus
Terror from the Deep wrote:How about this list:
Dakka flyrant - 230
Dakka flyrant -230
1 x lictor
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Deathleapers brood
1 x deathleaper
5 x lictor
Comes in at 1830. Anything the broodlords hit will be at -3 LD for pinning tests, precision mawloc strikes everywhere and everything starting on the board can be in combat turn 2
Pretty much a win or bust list - I like it!
7637
Post by: Sasori
ductvader wrote: Bulldogging wrote:Wait, is it only formations? Not a true supplement like Tau, etc have received?
Nope...it's a dataslate...the rumor is that supplements are dead... GW announced something to the effect of the investment not seeing such a great return
Uh, where is this stated? I have not seen anything about supplements being dead, and seems to be the exact opposite of the way things are going.
23113
Post by: jy2
BTW, guys, here are a few games with my new Tyranids. I had problems against Tau but I think Bugs are on par with most of the other armies:
1750 LVO Practice - NEW Hive Fleet Pandora vs White Scars + Space Wolves
Warhammer 40K Video Bat Rep Tyranids vs Taudar JY2 vs. Reecius (Frontline Challenge Match videorep)
1750 LVO Practice - The NEW Hive Fleet Pandora vs Imperial Guards (In progress)
2000 SLOBBERKNOCKER! 9-Carnifex Tyranids vs Pure Mechdar (In progress)
 Commander_Farsight wrote:Hey, jy2, is your next part in depth analysis (already done on Eldar and Necrons) going to be on Nids?
I've put any and all tacticas on hold. Been too busy playtesting the new Tyranids and also preparing for the Las Vegas Open.
80224
Post by: CrimsonFury
Terror from the Deep wrote:How about this list:
Dakka flyrant - 230
Dakka flyrant -230
1 x lictor
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Deathleapers brood
1 x deathleaper
5 x lictor
Comes in at 1830. Anything the broodlords hit will be at -3 LD for pinning tests, precision mawloc strikes everywhere and everything starting on the board can be in combat turn 2
20 genestealers and 4x brood lords is easily destroyed and then you lose due to no scoring units.
41831
Post by: omerakk
Still not sure how I feel about the Crone
73446
Post by: Terror from the Deep
 CrimsonFury wrote:Terror from the Deep wrote:How about this list:
Dakka flyrant - 230
Dakka flyrant -230
1 x lictor
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
5 x genestealers with brood lord -130
Mawloc
Mawloc
Mawloc
Deathleapers brood
1 x deathleaper
5 x lictor
Comes in at 1830. Anything the broodlords hit will be at -3 LD for pinning tests, precision mawloc strikes everywhere and everything starting on the board can be in combat turn 2
20 genestealers and 4x brood lords is easily destroyed and then you lose due to no scoring units.
What army can easily destroy 4 infiltrating units when there are another 7 infiltrating units, all that can reach combat turn 2, 2 solid flyers and 3x2ap2 non scattering large blasts incoming from turn 2 onwards?
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Post by: Gloomfang
Those infiltrators can assault turn one actully as long as you go second. A 6" range makes that real easy.
60966
Post by: jifel
Gloomfang wrote:Those infiltrators can assault turn one actully as long as you go second. A 6" range makes that real easy.
Read the rule again. They may infiltrate within 6" of an enemy model... Therefore may be placed somewhere between 6" and 1" away from an enemy! Yikes!
550
Post by: Clang
jifel wrote: Gloomfang wrote:Those infiltrators can assault turn one actully as long as you go second. A 6" range makes that real easy.
Read the rule again. They may infiltrate within 6" of an enemy model... Therefore may be placed somewhere between 6" and 1" away from an enemy! Yikes!
If that really is the exact wording, then - RAW - I'd have to agree
60966
Post by: jifel
 Clang wrote: jifel wrote: Gloomfang wrote:Those infiltrators can assault turn one actully as long as you go second. A 6" range makes that real easy.
Read the rule again. They may infiltrate within 6" of an enemy model... Therefore may be placed somewhere between 6" and 1" away from an enemy! Yikes!
If that really is the exact wording, then - RAW - I'd have to agree
"Models from this formation that are deployed within a Building or Ruins using the Infiltrate special rule can be set up within 6"of an enemy model"
So yeah. Manufactorum Broods just made Genestealers scary again. Because tons of tables have Ruins on them nowadays!
44751
Post by: SBG
Finally can dust off the 'stealers... woo!
Lictors and Genestealers are going to be seeing some table time.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
So I played 2 test games using the lictor forest brood @1000 points. The first was vs khan white scars and 2nd vs taudar. Both times saw the enemy tabled. The lictors as 5-model broods hit like a truck when they get to combat, and I'm really growing on this codex. Forcing multiple units to make threats at the enemy, especially non-synapse creatures, really can give the opponent a handful of no-win scenarios.
Also - shrikes with LW/BS, and adrenals are awesome counter assault units if you can keep them hidden. Gargoyles can leave poison off of their upgrades bc they have it already w blinding acid. Giving them adrenal glands will add fleet, which is priceless.
51881
Post by: BlaxicanX
jifel wrote: Gloomfang wrote:Those infiltrators can assault turn one actully as long as you go second. A 6" range makes that real easy.
Read the rule again. They may infiltrate within 6" of an enemy model... Therefore may be placed somewhere between 6" and 1" away from an enemy! Yikes!
That means that they may infiltrate up to, but no closer, than 6'' away from an enemy model.
The way you're interpreting the rule, it would ban you from infiltrating 7+'' inches away. That makes no sense.
74102
Post by: Steel-W0LF
I must be missing something.....
I keep seeing people say Rippers are decent out of synapse because they have Fearless.
Nothing in the "Feed" rules care about Fearless. Some of the other Instinctive Behavior tables do, but feed makes no mention of Fearless.
Rippers outside of Synapse will eat each other unless I'm mistaken?
3314
Post by: Jancoran
felixcat wrote:
Interesting approach Jancoren. Strikes from a lot of different angles. I'm not convinced that the Flyrant is at all durable in the list though. Losing Biomancy was a big deal - there is no way they last long these days.I have to say the list looks like a 40k Unorthodoxy one though. All the different elements of flexible deployment and surprise.
Yup, I do like to have options. Battlefields differ so MUCH. Having a lack of answers for any one thing is bad policy. So sometimes you gotta have a toolbag and go in with alertness and adaptability as your primary asset and sometimes a sledgehammer works. =)
40841
Post by: Traceoftoxin
 BlaxicanX wrote: jifel wrote: Gloomfang wrote:Those infiltrators can assault turn one actully as long as you go second. A 6" range makes that real easy.
Read the rule again. They may infiltrate within 6" of an enemy model... Therefore may be placed somewhere between 6" and 1" away from an enemy! Yikes!
That means that they may infiltrate up to, but no closer, than 6'' away from an enemy model.
The way you're interpreting the rule, it would ban you from infiltrating 7+'' inches away. That makes no sense.
No.
You have permission to infiltrate outside of 18" while in line of site. Outside of 12" while out of line of site. Within 6" while in a ruin.
Read the wording for Termagant spawning from a Tervigon and disembarking. Within 6" means you measure from the target (In this case an enemy unit in/near a ruin), and place models so that they are no further. In addition, because it says the brood must infiltrate within 6", but not wholly within 6", you only need 1 model from the unit in that range, because if 1 model is within 6" you've satisfied having the brood within 6" (The word wholly is used anywhere they require the entire unit to be within this range, look at the wording for Torrent).
People are REALLY sleeping on the manufactorum genestealers dataslate. Free hit and run and the ability to infiltrate within 6" for no cost. You can easily go to ground and force the opponent to spend far more firepower than they should on killing these squads (And having them in 5 small squads means at a minimum it will take 5 units to kill them, barring target locks).
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Post by: PrinceRaven
 Steel-W0LF wrote:I must be missing something.....
I keep seeing people say Rippers are decent out of synapse because they have Fearless.
Nothing in the "Feed" rules care about Fearless. Some of the other Instinctive Behavior tables do, but feed makes no mention of Fearless.
Rippers outside of Synapse will eat each other unless I'm mistaken?
The idea is that they care less about Syanpse than non-Fearless models because they don't have to worry about morale and pinning tests.
47462
Post by: rigeld2
tetrisphreak wrote:So I played 2 test games using the lictor forest brood @1000 points. The first was vs khan white scars and 2nd vs taudar. Both times saw the enemy tabled. The lictors as 5-model broods hit like a truck when they get to combat, and I'm really growing on this codex. Forcing multiple units to make threats at the enemy, especially non-synapse creatures, really can give the opponent a handful of no-win scenarios.
I thought they were 5 1 model broods...
40841
Post by: Traceoftoxin
Forest brood is 1 brood of 5.
60529
Post by: Gatekeeper
Either way if you don't go first, you still have to survive 1 round of shooting.
25360
Post by: ductvader
Gatekeeper wrote:Either way if you don't go first, you still have to survive 1 round of shooting.
You're probably looking to go second...for the first turn charge.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
ductvader wrote:Gatekeeper wrote:Either way if you don't go first, you still have to survive 1 round of shooting.
You're probably looking to go second...for the first turn charge.
They need to have a flyrant ready to put them into synapse after the first round of shooting by the enemy. G2G for a 2+ then stand up and charge turn 2 (or bottom of 1)
25360
Post by: ductvader
120 bolter shots
5.5 serpentst shooting
This is what it takes to kill forest lictors...sure...tau can put the hurt on them...but that's really just one army...
Not saying it's a safe bet every game...but I think it's heartier than most players realize
Edit: quick math could be off a little...
50463
Post by: Eldercaveman
The only issue I can see with Forest Lictors is the lack of forests seen on tables.
In my area at least. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Traceoftoxin wrote: BlaxicanX wrote: jifel wrote: Gloomfang wrote:Those infiltrators can assault turn one actully as long as you go second. A 6" range makes that real easy.
Read the rule again. They may infiltrate within 6" of an enemy model... Therefore may be placed somewhere between 6" and 1" away from an enemy! Yikes!
That means that they may infiltrate up to, but no closer, than 6'' away from an enemy model.
The way you're interpreting the rule, it would ban you from infiltrating 7+'' inches away. That makes no sense.
No.
You have permission to infiltrate outside of 18" while in line of site. Outside of 12" while out of line of site. Within 6" while in a ruin.
Read the wording for Termagant spawning from a Tervigon and disembarking. Within 6" means you measure from the target (In this case an enemy unit in/near a ruin), and place models so that they are no further. In addition, because it says the brood must infiltrate within 6", but not wholly within 6", you only need 1 model from the unit in that range, because if 1 model is within 6" you've satisfied having the brood within 6" (The word wholly is used anywhere they require the entire unit to be within this range, look at the wording for Torrent).
People are REALLY sleeping on the manufactorum genestealers dataslate. Free hit and run and the ability to infiltrate within 6" for no cost. You can easily go to ground and force the opponent to spend far more firepower than they should on killing these squads (And having them in 5 small squads means at a minimum it will take 5 units to kill them, barring target locks).
It also says 'CAN setup within 6" '. It doesn't say, MUST, so you can either use the new rules to infiltrate or the standard rules.
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Post by: Deshkar
The main thing is... need to ensure there's "forests" around-_-
Anyway, been playing around a lot but all my list have a brood of 2 dakkafexes, and they have been the most consistent unit I have. They usually earn back up to nearly twice their points in every game for me. The fexes can handle most things on the board, including air and still remain a very potent melee force.
I'm deeply considering running 2 sets of 2 dakkafexes as a staple. I can't decide next if I should include Biovores or a Mawloc for the third slot.
41478
Post by: Gloomfang
Steel-W0LF wrote:I must be missing something.....
I keep seeing people say Rippers are decent out of synapse because they have Fearless.
Nothing in the "Feed" rules care about Fearless. Some of the other Instinctive Behavior tables do, but feed makes no mention of Fearless.
Rippers outside of Synapse will eat each other unless I'm mistaken?
They are decent out of synapse because if they fail a Feed test it doesn't wipe out half your unit (hormagaunts). Mindless was a much worse version of Feed and they don't have that.
The fearless helps because it means they can still tarpit outside synapse. Other gaunts will break and run outside of synapse now.
60966
Post by: jifel
Plus, around here Ruins are popping up all over. Scarcity of Forests mean I don't think the Lictor Forest Brood is worth it just for the infiltrate. But, it's free and you can take 5 Freaking Lictors at once!
Those Manufactorum 'Stealers are just begging to be brought however. After Tau came out, every other army began complaining about Terrain. Every store and TO around here responded by building Ruins. Lots and lot of Ruins.
And saying that within doesn't mean within is illogical. It's awkwardly written compared to other types of Infiltrate, but the words themselves are clear. They may pop up within 6" of an enemy if they are Infiltrated in a Ruin. So basically, your opponent can't deploy in or near Ruins. That's HUGE for neutering cover saves, or even objective placement.
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Post by: lord_blackfang
jifel wrote:
And saying that within doesn't mean within is illogical. It's awkwardly written compared to other types of Infiltrate, but the words themselves are clear. They may pop up within 6" of an enemy if they are Infiltrated in a Ruin. So basically, your opponent can't deploy in or near Ruins. That's HUGE for neutering cover saves, or even objective placement.
Or he can juts deploy in ruins and you have no room to place your Stealers?
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Post by: Traceoftoxin
Eldercaveman wrote:It also says 'CAN setup within 6" '. It doesn't say, MUST, so you can either use the new rules to infiltrate or the standard rules.
Which is exactly what I said.
If your opponent fills up every Ruin he deploys within 6" of, he's done half the work of bottling himself up and not forcing you to spread out your forces (One of Tyranids biggest weaknesses) which is a massive benefit to you. You've still got 5 scoring units that can infiltrate as normal (And much easier if he's that bottled up), can outflank, can walk on from your own table edge, etc.
Genestealers in cover have an effective 3+ save the first round of shooting ( GTG->Fearless), 5 of them is pretty easy to kill, 25 across 5 units is not. In addition, if you go first, while you can't assault, you can use them to severely limit your opponent's movement and force your opponent to choose between killing the stealers and any other fast moving threats you have.
In this day and age where even at tournaments most boards have at least 3 large ruins terrain pieces, this is a fairly strong formation.
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Post by: omerakk
I think that between Mawlocs and this dataslate... the only thing getting accomplished will be Grey Knights popping up as allies more often.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
omerakk wrote:I think that between Mawlocs and this dataslate... the only thing getting accomplished will be Grey Knights popping up as allies more often.
Servo skulls in any inquisition detachment will render this tactic obsolete. Just something to be aware of.
74102
Post by: Steel-W0LF
Gloomfang wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:I must be missing something.....
I keep seeing people say Rippers are decent out of synapse because they have Fearless.
Nothing in the "Feed" rules care about Fearless. Some of the other Instinctive Behavior tables do, but feed makes no mention of Fearless.
Rippers outside of Synapse will eat each other unless I'm mistaken?
They are decent out of synapse because if they fail a Feed test it doesn't wipe out half your unit (hormagaunts). Mindless was a much worse version of Feed and they don't have that.
The fearless helps because it means they can still tarpit outside synapse. Other gaunts will break and run outside of synapse now.
Feed out of Synapse means 50% of the time they attack themselves.... they do the same thing Hormagaunts do... kill each other.
24153
Post by: tetrisphreak
Steel-W0LF wrote: Gloomfang wrote: Steel-W0LF wrote:I must be missing something.....
I keep seeing people say Rippers are decent out of synapse because they have Fearless.
Nothing in the "Feed" rules care about Fearless. Some of the other Instinctive Behavior tables do, but feed makes no mention of Fearless.
Rippers outside of Synapse will eat each other unless I'm mistaken?
They are decent out of synapse because if they fail a Feed test it doesn't wipe out half your unit (hormagaunts). Mindless was a much worse version of Feed and they don't have that.
The fearless helps because it means they can still tarpit outside synapse. Other gaunts will break and run outside of synapse now.
Feed out of Synapse means 50% of the time they attack themselves.... they do the same thing Hormagaunts do... kill each other.
Hormagaunts are 1 wound models. Rippers have 3. Feed affects the model count of horms far more than rippers.
41478
Post by: Gloomfang
tetrisphreak wrote:
Hormagaunts are 1 wound models. Rippers have 3. Feed affects the model count of horms far more than rippers.
That was my point.
For example: 12 hormagaunts in a unit your looking at 5 dead hormagaunts. That forces a moral check as they just lost 25% in the movement phase.
compared to 6 ripper bases:
They do 3 wounds and you get to take your +6sv. The owning player gets allocate the wounds so I put one on each model. I loose no models and even if I decided to put them all on one model I would probably just loose one (I might do that if one is out of cover or to make sure that I have the unit positioned how I want.) Even if loosing that model dropped me below 25% I don't care because I am fearless.
Yes fearless has little to due with IB:Feed, but they are much better out of synapse then the gaunts.
41831
Post by: omerakk
Working on a 1999 list (my group doesn't want to play double force org) and this is what I came up with so far. Thoughts?
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech, hive commander
3 Venomthrope
2 Zoanthrope
2 Hiveguard
30 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
6 Genestealers +1 Broodlord
14 Gargoyles
1 Harpy
1 Harpy
1 Tyrannofex w/ regeneration
1 Trygon
1 Exocrine w/ regeneration
1998pts
14 units
4 troops
6 MC
71 models
3 flyers
Idea is to push forward with everything, using the venomthropes + gargoyles to help with cover while using the Tyrant, Broodlord and 2 harpies to try to pin units down and help limit damage on the first turn. The termagaunts will outflank and try to get an annoying shooting attack on a backfield infantry unit.
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Post by: felixcat
Personally, i think the new dataslates should be tested ...
Tyranid Prime, Devourer, Scything Talons, The Norn Crown 165
Tyranid Prime, Reaper of Obliterax, Scything Talons, Flesh Hooks 175
Venomthrope 45
Zoanthrope 50
Zoanthrope 50
20 Termagants 80
20 Termagants 80
30 Termagants 120
Tervigon 195
2x Hive Crone 340
Hive fleet Leviathan Vanguard Gargoyle Bio-Bomb Formation 450
3x 20 Gargoyle Broods (120 each)
3x 6 Spore Mine Clusters (30 each)
This list trys to address synapse ( Prime in each termagant squad), has some AA, and will completely swamp the enemy in models. Try to prevent the list from closing. It will be nightmare to play against for some armies.
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
Being able to take gargoyles and still have the slots for 4-5 FMCs is really the best thing I see about these formations.
52446
Post by: Abandon
Steel-W0LF wrote:I must be missing something.....
I keep seeing people say Rippers are decent out of synapse because they have Fearless.
Nothing in the "Feed" rules care about Fearless. Some of the other Instinctive Behavior tables do, but feed makes no mention of Fearless.
Rippers outside of Synapse will eat each other unless I'm mistaken?
Additionally to what others have said, they easily operate independently in while locked in combat as there are no IB tests while a unit is in CC and fearless means they won't ever fall back. If the combat is likely to go on several turns you can feel free to move on with your synapse creatures until it looks like it might end soon or just forget about them entirely if there's more pressing matters that require your attention. They're just rippers after all.
Opponent didn't put any high strength CC weapons on his 5 man terminator squad? Well they can spend the rest of the game getting gnawed on by rippers. No baby sitting required.
74102
Post by: Steel-W0LF
Gloomfang wrote: tetrisphreak wrote:
Hormagaunts are 1 wound models. Rippers have 3. Feed affects the model count of horms far more than rippers.
That was my point.
For example: 12 hormagaunts in a unit your looking at 5 dead hormagaunts. That forces a moral check as they just lost 25% in the movement phase.
compared to 6 ripper bases:
They do 3 wounds and you get to take your +6sv. The owning player gets allocate the wounds so I put one on each model. I loose no models and even if I decided to put them all on one model I would probably just loose one (I might do that if one is out of cover or to make sure that I have the unit positioned how I want.) Even if loosing that model dropped me below 25% I don't care because I am fearless.
Yes fearless has little to due with IB:Feed, but they are much better out of synapse then the gaunts.
Ahh ok I see what your saying.
That makes a lot more sense.
23113
Post by: jy2
omerakk wrote:Working on a 1999 list (my group doesn't want to play double force org) and this is what I came up with so far. Thoughts?
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech, hive commander
3 Venomthrope
2 Zoanthrope
2 Hiveguard
30 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
6 Genestealers +1 Broodlord
14 Gargoyles
1 Harpy
1 Harpy
1 Tyrannofex w/ regeneration
1 Trygon
1 Exocrine w/ regeneration
1998pts
14 units
4 troops
6 MC
71 models
3 flyers
Idea is to push forward with everything, using the venomthropes + gargoyles to help with cover while using the Tyrant, Broodlord and 2 harpies to try to pin units down and help limit damage on the first turn. The termagaunts will outflank and try to get an annoying shooting attack on a backfield infantry unit.
Ok, here are my thoughts:
1. Try to fit in 1 more dakka flyrant if you can.
2. Why 2 units of warriors? They don't do anything for the list but to hold the backfield. Personally, I would swap out both units of warriors for a tervigon. No matter how nerfed he may have been, he is still superior IMO because of psychic powers and the ability to generate more troops.
3. If you don't run a tervigon, I'd recommend breaking up your unit of 30-gants into 3x10 gants.
4. Why 6 genestealers? Just go 5 stealers + broodlord.
5. You don't have much in the way of ranged AT. Give at least 1 of your harpies TL- HVC.
6. If you need the extra points (i.e. say, for the 2nd flyrant), you can drop the regen's on your TMC's. More big bugs > big bugs with regen.
So this is my recommended changes:
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech
2 Venomthrope
2 Zoanthrope
2 Hiveguard
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
5 Genestealers +1 Broodlord
15 Gargoyles
1 Harpy - TH- HVC
1 Harpy
1 Tyrannofex
1 Trygon
1 Exocrine
2K
-------------------------------------------------------
Hey guys!
This thread has grown a little more rapidly than I am able to address many of the things here. Between testing out the new bugs, writing battle reports as well as preparing for a large tournament coming up (the LVO), I haven't had as much time to respond to this thread.
If there is anything you'd like my input on - whether it be from the new dataslates, how to play certain units/combos or lists that you want me to critique - just drop me a PM instead. I may not get to it right away, but I eventually will in a couple of days.
jy2
81431
Post by: tag8833
jy2 wrote:omerakk wrote:Working on a 1999 list (my group doesn't want to play double force org) and this is what I came up with so far. Thoughts?
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech, hive commander
3 Venomthrope
2 Zoanthrope
2 Hiveguard
30 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
6 Genestealers +1 Broodlord
14 Gargoyles
1 Harpy
1 Harpy
1 Tyrannofex w/ regeneration
1 Trygon
1 Exocrine w/ regeneration
1998pts
14 units
4 troops
6 MC
71 models
3 flyers
Idea is to push forward with everything, using the venomthropes + gargoyles to help with cover while using the Tyrant, Broodlord and 2 harpies to try to pin units down and help limit damage on the first turn. The termagaunts will outflank and try to get an annoying shooting attack on a backfield infantry unit.
Ok, here are my thoughts:
1. Try to fit in 1 more dakka flyrant if you can.
2. Why 2 units of warriors? They don't do anything for the list but to hold the backfield. Personally, I would swap out both units of warriors for a tervigon. No matter how nerfed he may have been, he is still superior IMO because of psychic powers and the ability to generate more troops.
3. If you don't run a tervigon, I'd recommend breaking up your unit of 30-gants into 3x10 gants.
4. Why 6 genestealers? Just go 5 stealers + broodlord.
5. You don't have much in the way of ranged AT. Give at least 1 of your harpies TL- HVC.
6. If you need the extra points (i.e. say, for the 2nd flyrant), you can drop the regen's on your TMC's. More big bugs > big bugs with regen.
So this is my recommended changes:
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech
2 Venomthrope
2 Zoanthrope
2 Hiveguard
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer
5 Genestealers +1 Broodlord
15 Gargoyles
1 Harpy - TH- HVC
1 Harpy
1 Tyrannofex
1 Trygon
1 Exocrine
2K
jy2,
While I defer to you as a more experienced player, I disagree mildly with some of your advice.
1) In my opinion you shouldn't ever run warriors (90 pts) without paying for a heavy weapon (10 pts). They are usually going to be out of range of devourers, but at least a Barbed Strangler gives them something to do while sitting on an objective, or hiding behind the rest of your army.
2) The Broodlord is both expensive and only situationally useful, because many units can't be pinned. Genesteelers are not an effective combat unit, they are an objective holder that can outflank with a leadership 10 (so lack of synapse is less problematic), so keeping them as cheap as possible is the way to go. Spending any more than 70 pts on them feels like a waste.
3) Harpies are made for the HVC. Stranglethorn Cannon is for Carnifexes. If you can hit where you want with a small blast it is going to do nearly as much damage as a large blast. The large blast is preferable mainly to mitigate inaccurate fire.
4) Mawloc is more useful and cheaper than Trygon.
5) I've never seen Tyrannofex make back its points. My opponents recognize that he is tough to kill so they target squishier things first, and his damage output is low compared to other heavy support options (Carnifexes, Biovores)
6) I feel like taking advantage of synergy is huge.
A) Bastion + Venom = More shrouded range that is AV14
B) Bastion + Flyrant = Alpha strike survival
C) Comms Relay + Mawloc = reliable Mawloc
D) Comms Relay + Harpy = useful FMC in reserves.
E) Comms Relay + Genestealers = Genestealers arriving later thus more survivable.
So instead of your suggestion, I would look for something more like this.
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech (230)
1 Hive Tyrant w/ wings, 2 twin linked devourers with brainleech (230)
1 Venomthrope (45)
2 Zoanthrope (100)
2 Hiveguard (110)
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists (40)
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists (40)
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists (40)
10 Termagaunt w/ spinefists (40)
3 Warriors w/ scything talons and devourer + 1 Barbed Strangler (100)
5 Genestealers (70)
25 Gargoyles (150)
1 Harpy w/ HVC (140)
1 Harpy w/ HVC (140)
3 Biovore (120)
1 Mawloc (140)
1 Exocrine (170)
1 Bastion + Comms Relay (95)
Maybe I've changed the original list too much to honor the original poster.
60966
Post by: jifel
Hello all!
What's everyones thoughts on the Prime and Norn Crown? I initially had discarded both I admit. The Prime due to points increase and the Crown due to cost. However, in a Bastion build do you think it has merits? I was originally planning on a Bastion with Venomthrope inside and a Zoanthrope behind it... But, watching BatReps has pointed out that a SMS from Tau (sigh) can kill a Zoanthrope with ease. So, perhaps hiding the Synapse in the Bastion would help, but I have no doubt that the Venomthrope MUST also be in there. Only a Prime can do this, and is much costlier than a Zoantrhope casting Dominion. (In double Force Organization, it is cheaper to use a Bastion for the Zoanthrope and a separate one for the Venomthrope than to buy a Prime.
So, do you think the Norn-crown Prime is worth it next to a Zoanthrope? I just struggle to justify it. In single Force Org, Dual Flyrants are just a must. In Double Force Org, instead of a Prime with Norn Crown you could take a Zoanthrope, a second Bastion, and a Biovore for the EXACT same points... that just seems better to me.
53744
Post by: rollawaythestone
jifel wrote:Hello all!
What's everyones thoughts on the Prime and Norn Crown? I initially had discarded both I admit. The Prime due to points increase and the Crown due to cost. However, in a Bastion build do you think it has merits? I was originally planning on a Bastion with Venomthrope inside and a Zoanthrope behind it... But, watching BatReps has pointed out that a SMS from Tau (sigh) can kill a Zoanthrope with ease. So, perhaps hiding the Synapse in the Bastion would help, but I have no doubt that the Venomthrope MUST also be in there. Only a Prime can do this, and is much costlier than a Zoantrhope casting Dominion. (In double Force Organization, it is cheaper to use a Bastion for the Zoanthrope and a separate one for the Venomthrope than to buy a Prime.
So, do you think the Norn-crown Prime is worth it next to a Zoanthrope? I just struggle to justify it. In single Force Org, Dual Flyrants are just a must. In Double Force Org, instead of a Prime with Norn Crown you could take a Zoanthrope, a second Bastion, and a Biovore for the EXACT same points... that just seems better to me.
For the cost of the Prime with Norn Crown, you could get a bare-bones Tyrant, right? With ML2, you can switch out for Dominion and basically have the Norn Crown itself. Hiding in the bastion does have merits, however, but seems a bit costly. I think the Zoey with Dominion is a better purchase if you are going the bastion route.
60966
Post by: jifel
rollawaythestone wrote: jifel wrote:Hello all!
What's everyones thoughts on the Prime and Norn Crown? I initially had discarded both I admit. The Prime due to points increase and the Crown due to cost. However, in a Bastion build do you think it has merits? I was originally planning on a Bastion with Venomthrope inside and a Zoanthrope behind it... But, watching BatReps has pointed out that a SMS from Tau (sigh) can kill a Zoanthrope with ease. So, perhaps hiding the Synapse in the Bastion would help, but I have no doubt that the Venomthrope MUST also be in there. Only a Prime can do this, and is much costlier than a Zoantrhope casting Dominion. (In double Force Organization, it is cheaper to use a Bastion for the Zoanthrope and a separate one for the Venomthrope than to buy a Prime.
So, do you think the Norn-crown Prime is worth it next to a Zoanthrope? I just struggle to justify it. In single Force Org, Dual Flyrants are just a must. In Double Force Org, instead of a Prime with Norn Crown you could take a Zoanthrope, a second Bastion, and a Biovore for the EXACT same points... that just seems better to me.
For the cost of the Prime with Norn Crown, you could get a bare-bones Tyrant, right? With ML2, you can switch out for Dominion and basically have the Norn Crown itself. Hiding in the bastion does have merits, however, but seems a bit costly. I think the Zoey with Dominion is a better purchase if you are going the bastion route.
The pros of a Norncrown Prime are it's synapse and that it can hide. But if I'm already buying one Bastion... why not two? Hide ALL my FLyrants out of LoS, and all sorts of fun!
3314
Post by: Jancoran
jifel wrote:Hello all!
What's everyones thoughts on the Prime and Norn Crown? I initially had discarded both I admit. The Prime due to points increase and the Crown due to cost. However, in a Bastion build do you think it has merits? I was originally planning on a Bastion with Venomthrope inside and a Zoanthrope behind it... But, watching BatReps has pointed out that a SMS from Tau (sigh) can kill a Zoanthrope with ease. So, perhaps hiding the Synapse in the Bastion would help, but I have no doubt that the Venomthrope MUST also be in there. Only a Prime can do this, and is much costlier than a Zoantrhope casting Dominion. (In double Force Organization, it is cheaper to use a Bastion for the Zoanthrope and a separate one for the Venomthrope than to buy a Prime.
So, do you think the Norn-crown Prime is worth it next to a Zoanthrope? I just struggle to justify it. In single Force Org, Dual Flyrants are just a must. In Double Force Org, instead of a Prime with Norn Crown you could take a Zoanthrope, a second Bastion, and a Biovore for the EXACT same points... that just seems better to me.
There is a really good list with two primes that Felixcat showed me. Primes are very cool. They were my favorite in the last codex for HQ's but no one ever fielded them. they are probably going to now.
60966
Post by: jifel
 Jancoran wrote: jifel wrote:Hello all!
What's everyones thoughts on the Prime and Norn Crown? I initially had discarded both I admit. The Prime due to points increase and the Crown due to cost. However, in a Bastion build do you think it has merits? I was originally planning on a Bastion with Venomthrope inside and a Zoanthrope behind it... But, watching BatReps has pointed out that a SMS from Tau (sigh) can kill a Zoanthrope with ease. So, perhaps hiding the Synapse in the Bastion would help, but I have no doubt that the Venomthrope MUST also be in there. Only a Prime can do this, and is much costlier than a Zoantrhope casting Dominion. (In double Force Organization, it is cheaper to use a Bastion for the Zoanthrope and a separate one for the Venomthrope than to buy a Prime.
So, do you think the Norn-crown Prime is worth it next to a Zoanthrope? I just struggle to justify it. In single Force Org, Dual Flyrants are just a must. In Double Force Org, instead of a Prime with Norn Crown you could take a Zoanthrope, a second Bastion, and a Biovore for the EXACT same points... that just seems better to me.
There is a really good list with two primes that Felixcat showed me. Primes are very cool. They were my favorite in the last codex for HQ's but no one ever fielded them. they are probably going to now.
Care to share? I feel like Flyrants are just too valuable to miss out on.
3314
Post by: Jancoran
I wont steal his thunder. the essence though is that they are IC's, Synapse and their bubble wrap units are dirty dirt cheap, and for that pivotal 1st 2 rounds, likely to be Shrouded and Primes are pretty cool in that they can just switch bubble wraps when they need to. So you shoot at one, weaken it. he jumps to the other and charges. Challenge ensues. After the challenge, if the unit doesn't win, it probably finishes its prey the next round, just in time to charge again.
Another interesting play is the tervigon which can essentially spew out more bubble wrap for them if it wants to. Alternately, the Prime can split and charge if the target looks like he can take it in a couple phases, while the rest of the unit does its thing.
What could be important also is that there WILL be more fire on those wraps and ergo possibly less on the Venomthropes and other units. The threat of letting a Prime get there is fairly significant. That defends the rest of the army a little better in the way of keeping them shrouded longer.
Just some thoughts.
80436
Post by: Commander_Farsight
This is getting really long. Might it be time to start a part 2 or something?
1567
Post by: felixcat
You are not stealing my thunder Jancoren. You are the go-to guy when I design lists as you know. And that is a pretty good summary. Bear in ind that the Primes should be able to handle themselves well in cc. Rending is a big plus on them and you can go for more expensive upgrades. A lot depends on the list itself. Getting through ablative wounds to knock out your synapse is a pita. And everyone I've played goes for the synapse guys first. This gives my other support units more freedom - very dangerous when its a miasmic Trygon Prime and a Mawloc.
These types of lists rely heavily on a bit of misdirection and different modes of deployment to succeed. I have infiltrating squad of stealers and a broodloird. i have two Crones moving down table. I have two strong Dsing units. I have a Tervigon spawning a buffer.
What destroys Nids is the loss of synapse. Primes are very tough to take out. That is what makes them so darn useful in lists. You are not chewing through 20-30 ablative wounds a turn. Not shrouded for sure. And that is the key. I illustrated a similar type of tactic earlier when I posted a list abusing the new Gargoyle dataslate. It does the same thing. Misdirects your attention to units that are very difficult to take down. It also has a lot of disruptive units. We have to start thinking outside the box of dual flyrant, venomthropes, tervigon, termagants as the only viable build. If you read the batreps you will see how fast those Flyrants and Zoans disappear off the table. Primes stick around longer. That said a Swarmlord with a hive guard is not half bad as well. But again it does not have 30 ablative wounds!
And a word on Venomthropes. too many players are building their lists dependent on these guys. I love them. Do not get me wrong. But using cover, buffering squads, fast units, infiltrators, you will often perform better with Nids on the table. The problem with Venomthropes is that they will be targeted early. I use them to draw fire ... I get my coverage for a turn maybe two and that is all I need. If my opponent goes after them instead of my synapse I'm happy indeed.
3314
Post by: Jancoran
Something has to die eventually. No sense crying about that.
1021
Post by: AesSedai
felixcat wrote:You are not stealing my thunder Jancoren. You are the go-to guy when I design lists as you know. And that is a pretty good summary. Bear in ind that the Primes should be able to handle themselves well in cc. Rending is a big plus on them and you can go for more expensive upgrades. A lot depends on the list itself. Getting through ablative wounds to knock out your synapse is a pita. And everyone I've played goes for the synapse guys first. This gives my other support units more freedom - very dangerous when its a miasmic Trygon Prime and a Mawloc.
These types of lists rely heavily on a bit of misdirection and different modes of deployment to succeed. I have infiltrating squad of stealers and a broodloird. i have two Crones moving down table. I have two strong Dsing units. I have a Tervigon spawning a buffer.
What destroys Nids is the loss of synapse. Primes are very tough to take out. That is what makes them so darn useful in lists. You are not chewing through 20-30 ablative wounds a turn. Not shrouded for sure. And that is the key. I illustrated a similar type of tactic earlier when I posted a list abusing the new Gargoyle dataslate. It does the same thing. Misdirects your attention to units that are very difficult to take down. It also has a lot of disruptive units. We have to start thinking outside the box of dual flyrant, venomthropes, tervigon, termagants as the only viable build. If you read the batreps you will see how fast those Flyrants and Zoans disappear off the table. Primes stick around longer. That said a Swarmlord with a hive guard is not half bad as well. But again it does not have 30 ablative wounds!
And a word on Venomthropes. too many players are building their lists dependent on these guys. I love them. Do not get me wrong. But using cover, buffering squads, fast units, infiltrators, you will often perform better with Nids on the table. The problem with Venomthropes is that they will be targeted early. I use them to draw fire ... I get my coverage for a turn maybe two and that is all I need. If my opponent goes after them instead of my synapse I'm happy indeed.
Tyrants are arguably the most all around useful unit for tyranids. Giving up a tyrant for a prime is painful. Not that I disagree, as I feel a bunkered prime (ideally in a C-fex brood) is a very important piece, but it's not like HQ is a barren slot for nids.
3314
Post by: Jancoran
I dont understand that really? they SnekkManders, BeatManders, FlyMannders, and SoldierManders. I think the new Dataslate lets you have a Lictor leader for freeby. What dont you like about the Manders.
41478
Post by: Gloomfang
felixcat wrote:You are not stealing my thunder Jancoren. You are the go-to guy when I design lists as you know. And that is a pretty good summary. Bear in ind that the Primes should be able to handle themselves well in cc. Rending is a big plus on them and you can go for more expensive upgrades. A lot depends on the list itself. Getting through ablative wounds to knock out your synapse is a pita. And everyone I've played goes for the synapse guys first. This gives my other support units more freedom - very dangerous when its a miasmic Trygon Prime and a Mawloc.
These types of lists rely heavily on a bit of misdirection and different modes of deployment to succeed. I have infiltrating squad of stealers and a broodloird. i have two Crones moving down table. I have two strong Dsing units. I have a Tervigon spawning a buffer.
What destroys Nids is the loss of synapse. Primes are very tough to take out. That is what makes them so darn useful in lists. You are not chewing through 20-30 ablative wounds a turn. Not shrouded for sure. And that is the key. I illustrated a similar type of tactic earlier when I posted a list abusing the new Gargoyle dataslate. It does the same thing. Misdirects your attention to units that are very difficult to take down. It also has a lot of disruptive units. We have to start thinking outside the box of dual flyrant, venomthropes, tervigon, termagants as the only viable build. If you read the batreps you will see how fast those Flyrants and Zoans disappear off the table. Primes stick around longer. That said a Swarmlord with a hive guard is not half bad as well. But again it does not have 30 ablative wounds!
I have to agree with your way of using Primes. My current list has no FMCs and counts heavily on getting a lot of units in close and fast. It also operates pretty well with zero synapse. I am currently retooling it for the new dataslates, but here is the list in it's original form.
HQ:
Prime w/Maw-claws, Lash/Bone, AG and Tox
Deathleaper
Elite:
Lictor
Lictor
Troops:
9xGenestealer + BL w/ScyTal and Tox
9xGenestealer + BL w/ScyTal
9xGenestealer + BL w/ScyTal
6xRipper w/Spine, Tox and DS
3xWarriors
FA:
4xShrikes w/Bonesword, Fleshhook, RC and Tox
4xRavener w/ Dev and RC
16xGargoyles
HS
Biovore
Biovore
Biovore
Fortifications:
2xVeng Weapon Battery w/Quad Icarus lascannon
Tactics:
I use the warriors to give me backfield synapse to babysit the biovores. They tend to just sit on objectives. The Weapon Batteries are there as my AA and where I deploy them is generally where they can have a good lines of fire for units breaking out of their deployment zone. The biovores are in units of 1 to maximize the number of spore pods that may end up on the table. They are good at shooting clusters of troops bunched up and if I miss then they can take overwatch shots for my other troops.
I then say the brood with the BL with toxin is being joined by the Prime and going into reserve. I also put all my DS into reserve.
That is my deployment.
Then I wait.
After I see how my opponent is deployed I then try to find good places to infiltrate my stealers and lictors. I want to box them into their own deployment zone. but not have them where the enemy can draw line of sight to them without coming closer and risking getting charged. I tend to not advance with them until the 3rd turn or when my deepstrikers are in position to attack. I can better react to how they deploy and move their units. The stealers and lictors are Ld10 so they can do well out of synapse without fearless and stealers ignore IB. Rippers are just fearless now and they might do 1-2 wounds if they fail their IB roll. Once the raveners are in CC they don't need to take IB rolls, but they have armor saves and multiwounds so its not to bad.
The list does target saturation all at once. It tends to do better against gunline armies as they expect a few turns of shooting and when your troops don't come out to play they either get ancy and break ranks or they get nervous and bunch up.
Need to get some more play time in and tweak it for the new dataslate.
EDIT: The Prime is there to come on with outflank and bring some more fearless to the party. It also has the Maw and it will give the unit of stealers it is with PE. It also hides my HQ in a nice big unit with someone to take challenges if I want to avoid them.
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
Gloomfang wrote:My current list has no FMCs and counts heavily on getting a lot of units in close and fast.
Wut?
41478
Post by: Gloomfang
What is the point of an FMC? Really? It is mobility and dealing with flyers.
My list has a ton of mobility. I have the Vengeance Batteries to deal with flyers.
So every list that has points dedicated to killing flyers just wasted points against my list. At best they will kill a shrike with interceptor.
Also in every game that I have seen with the "must have" dual flyrants they are dead by the end of turn 2 or they are so busy hiding the whole game they are next to useless.
So you have to change. Evolution is the name of the game.
80436
Post by: Commander_Farsight
I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
I fail to see how either player could find a 2 turn tabling fun.
41478
Post by: Gloomfang
Commander_Farsight wrote:I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
Please bring that big pile of expensive scrap metal =)
Looks to be an easy unit to get rid of. Might be a little slower with 2, but they have a few big problems that Nids can really exploit.
EDIT: For folks not familiar here is the datasheet for the unit he is talking about: http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/Downloads/Product/PDF/R/Rvarna.pdf
44924
Post by: Zande4
Don't waste points on a Norn Prime. Tervigons are not as good as they were but in the current codex compared to other choices in troops they're still the best. at 1850+ you can easily fit a Tervigon, x2 Flyrants, Zoan in a bastion with another backfield Zoan. If your opponent snipes all that then a Norn Prime was never going to save you.
23113
Post by: jy2
Commander_Farsight wrote:I played against some Nids yesterday. I brought out my Tau. It was a great game... for me at least. I tabled the dude in 2 turns. That sounds really fast, but he was a really new player, or didn't play competitively until recently. He also let me take a couple of R'Varnas as I wanted to "try them out". I'm not going to ever play those things again unless I feel threatened by my opponent or its a tourney. The game was honestly not that fun in the scope of things. I then dropped the R'Varnas for our second game. I still won, but not nearly by as much. What do you think about these shenanigans against Nids?
BTW, the R'varna has been nerfed so that he is more worth his points now. Now his guns are only AP4 (yeah! Bugs get their 3+ saves!) and if he novas, he can't fire it on the next turn.
68714
Post by: VorpalBunny74
Quick question: has anyone tried sticking a Prime in a unit of Tyrant Guard yet?
69849
Post by: PrinceRaven
Why would I put a prime in a Tyrant Guard Brood instead of paying slightly more points for a Hive Tyrant?
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