I almost wish I had chosen to Nids to be my first army instead of Eldar... almost. So with the addition of the Crone do Nids have a proper equivalent to the Tzeentch Flying Circus now?
Gants may not be tall enough to give them 25% cover, especially if the opponent is on higher ground or have taller models. Moreover, they are kind of slow. Roll a 1" on your run and they become a bottleneck for your carnifexes.
Either run gargoyles instead, or don't run a screening unit.
Interveneing unit rule doesn't follow the 25% cover mechanic. Like area terrain it is an exception. So as long as the firing unit is shooting through (even if it is shooting through gaps) and not over a unit, the target gets a 5+ cover save. Being up on multi-level ruins or having a very tall model (like Flyers or a wraithknight) can bypass this by shooting over the unit.
Old One Eye
Haruspex w/ Adrenal x2
Venomthrope
Tervigon
Spinegants
6 dakkafexes.
1850. Yes, needs more Psykers but... man that would be fun.
It's fun for nine seconds. Then your opponent kills your Tervigon, and you no longer have any control over your army.
Except Termagants will stay safe even without synapse, Old One Eye can boost LD and Haruspexes don't really care about IB when they can never cannablize themselves.
I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
I'll just infiltrate the Stealers, pin whatever I can with The Horror and the Biovores and march everything else across the board at my opponent. Swarmy will just pass wounds off to his Guard and the Fexes will be screened by the Gargoyles, backed up by a Venomthrope for 3+ cover saves. The lonely Zoan will hang back behind cover with the Biovores as their Synapse conduit simply because it's necessary.
You can't tell me that won't be a fun list to play.
As far as my 'competitive' list will go, it'll be something like:
Gants used to tarpit or claim objectives depending on scenario and enemy. Tervigon sits backfield with a Venomthrope and spits out more Gants to claim objectives - also acts as Synapse conduit for Biovores. Zoan also serves as a Synapse conduit for Biovores and back-to-midfield. Dakkafexes again are screened by Gargoyles and given Shrouded by a Venomthrope. Biovores pepper the enemy from behind LoS blocking cover. Crones and Dakka Flyrants bring the airborne pain.
si_ wrote: The Skyshield idea sounds like it could work. Personally I would wait for the inevitable FAQ nerd before investing in fortifications.
I don't normally post lists up but I have been trying to come up one which I can build my new swarm to and I have come up with this:
Spoiler:
HQ
Flyrant - TL Devourers
Flyrant - TL Devourers
ELITE
Zoanthropes (3)
Hive Guard (2)
Hive Guard (2)
TROOPS
Warriors (3) - BS / 2x Deathspitters
Termagants (30)
Tervigon
FAST
Hive Crone
HEAVY
Exocrine
Exocrine
Thats 1750pts (unless my math is out as Ive posted from memory). This list will be ok in my meta unless I come across against the Eldar. I was originally going to have another Crone but I dropped it for extra synapse.
What are thoughts on this build? I don't see many Hive Guards in lists these days.
What I'm liking are hive guards + the Bastion.
I don't recommend 3 zoans as perfomance decreases the more zoans you have in a unit (though on the flip side, survivability increases). Instead, this is what I would recommend:
1x Zoan
1x Zoan
3x Hive Guards
Bastion
Put the Bastion 8" outside your deployment zone. Then on Turn 1, move the hive guards to within 2" of it and embark. Then move and hide one of the zoans (or tervigon) behind the bastion.
What unit's in the codex would I need to include for maximum long range fire power (24 + inches) and would including these units allow me to at LEAST match it with a slight under tear optimized Tau army.
Also.. coupled with maxed out Venemthropes and set up in ruins would the above list be able to shrug off most hits with relative impunity?
I understand cover denying removes the real power of the above but I think practically speaking the below mitigates that;
1. The marker light's removing my cover are not helping the fire warrior's ballistic skills.
2. Mawloc's and/or Lictors and/or Deathleaper and/or long range fire power will HAVE to target the source of the marker lights as soon as possible (possibly killing a unit providing the course first turn?)
Considering my meta is very far from tripple rip tide + all missiles all the time I think something like the above would be very powerful and hard to kill.
My main worry is weather I will have enough of the long range stuff..
Forget it. Don't even bother. You will never be able to match Tau in a ranged firefight. Maybe at short range with TL-brainleech devourers, but the best we've got at longer ranges are the 200+ tyrannofex and the 135+ harpies, both of which aren't very reliable shooters anyways.
The way to play against the Tau is with speed. You need to mobilize your entire army against them, put up a lot of targets to make target priority hard and use either lots of fast units or a lot of resilient ones. Tau, mechdar, space wolves and venom-spam DE may be 4 of the toughest armies for tyranids to go up against due to the sheer number of ranged firepower they can put up. Don't play their game, which is ranged shooting. Rather, play your own game and send tons and tons of fast or monstrous creatures to put a huge amount of pressure on them.
Carnifex with dual stranglethorn canon. Harpies have a twin linked stranglethorn cannon, and are pretty cheap.
I really like the idea of Stranglethorn Carnifexes... even more than dakkafexes.
I also read about the old idea of a 'distraction carnifex'. Maybe a distraction tyrannofex could work, with the new and improved regeneration.
Carnifexes may only take 1 stranglethorn canon.
The harpy is actually a good option, not so much for its guns as it is for its speed and ability to apply pressure to the enemy along with your flyrants.
am i the only one who sees Void shields as a great use now for nids? and even the Promethean pipes to make pyrovors torrent? once taudar get smart and start using void shields, any range shooting is gonna be in trouble
Not a whole lot of people really play Stronghold here yet, which is probably why there isn't much input.
Personally, I am of the opinion that you should ask if your opponent wants to play against an army with Escalation or Stronghold units. Most people won't be too happy when they play against you and all of a sudden, you take out your Revenant or Warhound titan. Likewise, many people also won't like it when they bring a normal list and all of a sudden, you bring out a unit with 6 Void Shields. Heck, if I went to play against a Tau player in a "normal" game and all of a sudden, he whips out a Void Shield Network with 6 void shields, I'd probably go "no thank you, I'll pass." Haha....just kidding. I'd just go and crush his army.
DexKivuli wrote: Carnifex with dual stranglethorn canon. Harpies have a twin linked stranglethorn cannon, and are pretty cheap.
I really like the idea of Stranglethorn Carnifexes... even more than dakkafexes.
I also read about the old idea of a 'distraction carnifex'. Maybe a distraction tyrannofex could work, with the new and improved regeneration.
Iirc aren't you only allowed one Stranglethorn Cannon though? Can't do the gunboat Fex. They killed that after 4th.
Opinions of new list so far - I'm liking it. Seeing odds and ends of one way or another.
Shall get a proper free for all outing on the 25th with an Apocalypse game at the FLGS - I'm being asked to provide about 3-4k worth of the 'nids which conveniently works out to what is painted at the moment.
Naked hormagants really aren't that great. As a wound soaker for your primes, I'd recommend 30 termagants instead. I'd also recommend breaking down 1 unit of hormagants into 2 or 3 units of 10 termagants. Finally, consider the bastion for your army and perhaps 1 or 2 zoans to spread the coverage of synapse.
Important to note there that Hormagaunts lose Bounding leap if joined by a Prime.
Right, all the more reason not to run Primes with hormagants.
jy2 wrote: Naked hormagants really aren't that great.
Why is that? The way I see it, they're the same as termagants but a lot quicker (+3" run and rerollable run) which means that as a screening unit, they're less likely to hold stuff up with bad run moves.
That's true, but without either AG or Toxin Sacs, they aren't really as much of a threat to many units. Gargoyles are faster and can threaten any non-tank unit thanks to their blinding poison, and the fact that they are non-scoring here actually acts as a benefit. Gargoyles are totally sacrificial and thus, perfect as cannon fodder. With their increased range, a shooting attack and blinding venom, they are also more dangerous.
Enceladus wrote: Interesting. Shrouded behind an ADL would be 3+ cover, right?
It would be 2+ cover.
Journeyman351 wrote: Hey guys, I REALLY want to play a close combat Tyranid army, as I think that's what they are meant to do. I have really no interest in playing the "shooty nids" version of the army (unless I'm getting completely tabled all the time, and have no other choice). With this said, I was thinking about running a CC Hive Tyrant death star of sorts. I know it isn't the greatest list, and cannot handle some armies, but here is my list. Please provide comments and help, as they would be much appreciated!
Now, I already know that if I increase the points cap, I'll probably be adding more Carnifexes, and possibly a Hive Crone to deal with fliers since Heldrakes are my bane here. I separated the Venomthropes to obviously keep them at different places within the army. I kitted out my Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard to be a monster in CC. I can possibly see taking off the LW & BS from the Hive Guard themselves, but as of right now, it seems pretty decent on paper (albeit costing me 60 points). I'm also thinking of possibly replacing the Hormagants with Termagants, but we'll see. I like the idea of a block of 20 CC units to tarpit something that always wound on 4+. I also run Regen on the Tervigon because I REALLY do not want her to die, considering my termagants would suffer greatly if she does. I'll also lose a synapse creature as well.
Again, please post any advice you may have for this list. I'm trying to keep the points cost at 1,350, but I might also make a 1,500 point variation of this list as well.
2 things about playing assault bugs:
1) You need speed or the ability to take a lot of shots. Having to take 2-3 rounds of fire from an army such as Tau or Eldar will decimate your army. Assault nids are not viable without either lots of speed or ultra-tough units. That means FNP on your assault units or super-fast units such as flying MC's, burrowing trygons/mawlocs and gargoyles/raveners/shrikes.
2) You've got way too much upgrade. A 200-pt carnifex dies just the same as a 120-pt one. Dump most of the upgrades. The only ones that you should consider keeping are adrenal glands for your big monsters. Everything else just subtracts from your army. For nids, in most cases, I'd go with quantity over quality.
Formosa wrote: I have tried out the haruspex and quite like it , sure it's only got 4 attacks on the charge but the additional attacks generated are quite cool, I basically treat it as 5/6 attacks basically when all is said and done, adrenal glands are a must though
That's good to hear. On paper, it really doesn't look very impressive. I'm glad you've had some success it, especially since the model is so awesome!
DaddyWarcrimes wrote: I'm seriously considering buying a basic ADL and running the thing down the midline of the board. Then the venomthropes will mean any shooting into my table half gets a 2+ cover save. With the monstrous creatures all having Move Through Cover, it won't slow them down appreciably to cross it, and granting opponents cover saves won't matter much since so many of them will be taking 3+ or 4+ armor saves against massed devourer, shooting anyway.
That is a viable strategy.
Now the challenge would be in trying to keep your venomthropes alive as it moves into position to protect the rest of your army.
Journeyman351 wrote: Hey guys, I REALLY want to play a close combat Tyranid army, as I think that's what they are meant to do. I have really no interest in playing the "shooty nids" version of the army (unless I'm getting completely tabled all the time, and have no other choice). With this said, I was thinking about running a CC Hive Tyrant death star of sorts. I know it isn't the greatest list, and cannot handle some armies, but here is my list. Please provide comments and help, as they would be much appreciated!
IMO, walking tyrants are not worth it. If you want a walking tyrant, I would go with the Swarmlord instead, simply because he does so much more for your army. Additionally, I'm not a fan of lashwhips on tyrant guard, because most of them are going to get killed before they make it across the board anyway. If you drop the whips and the tyrant, you would be able to put in the Swarmlord (Also, adrenal glands on your guard are useless if you put them with Swarmy, so you should drop those too if you decide to take my advice). Also, Carnifexes are 120 pts. base, not 160, and I do not believe that Crushing Claws are a good investment for them, especially with adrenal glands. You're already S10 on the charge and have the option to smash. Do you really need armorbane as well?
Well, the numbers next to the unit themselves is their TOTAL cost, with upgrades and all. The Carnifex with all of the bells and whistles costs 160. I guess I may not need the armourbane to kill tanks and vehicles, but I thought it would be nice. So you suggest to leave him with two pairs of Scything Talons then?
On the topic of the Hive Tyrant and Tyrant Guard, they'll be with a venomthrope nine times out of ten. It is totally possible that they will die before even entering combat, but that's why they have adrenal glands. I don't know how "magical christmasland" this may be, but my goal is to keep the death star with a venomthrope, or near one for the shroud, and charge into CC before getting shot down and before losing the shroud matters. You're probably right, though. And I initially wanted to build The Swarmlord, but I found the points cost to be too much for what I'm getting. I still think he's a great unit in terms of CC Hive Tyrants, but I'm not so sure. What would my benefit be from running a flying Hive Tyrant with the Tyrant Guard? What could some example kits be?
Naked hormagants really aren't that great. As a wound soaker for your primes, I'd recommend 30 termagants instead. I'd also recommend breaking down 1 unit of hormagants into 2 or 3 units of 10 termagants. Finally, consider the bastion for your army and perhaps 1 or 2 zoans to spread the coverage of synapse.
Important to note there that Hormagaunts lose Bounding leap if joined by a Prime.
Right, all the more reason not to run Primes with hormagants.
jy2 wrote: Tyranids really have it tough in Apoc. You need 1) flyers and 2) Void Shields in games of Apoc. Otherwise, D weapons will just tear up a bug army.
Well, I'm only one part of the 18k+ Swarm being brought out - my opponent will be bringing some flyers and other big critters so I'm just one part of the swarm. Yeah, Apoc is rough but this is a good field test of what we can and can't do. Hopefully the other 20 odd Carnifexes will be a better distraction than my 3. Or the Hierodules...
am i the only one who sees Void shields as a great use now for nids? and even the Promethean pipes to make pyrovors torrent? once taudar get smart and start using void shields, any range shooting is gonna be in trouble
Not a whole lot of people really play Stronghold here yet, which is probably why there isn't much input.
Personally, I am of the opinion that you should ask if your opponent wants to play against an army with Escalation or Stronghold units. Most people won't be too happy when they play against you and all of a sudden, you take out your Revenant or Warhound titan. Likewise, many people also won't like it when they bring a normal list and all of a sudden, you bring out a unit with 6 Void Shields. Heck, if I went to play against a Tau player in a "normal" game and all of a sudden, he whips out a Void Shield Network with 6 void shields, I'd probably go "no thank you, I'll pass." Haha....just kidding. I'd just go and crush his army.
I know my store is not allowing any lord of war in your FOC so escalation is out, but stronghold is different, strong hold in my opinion should always be allowed/used because it further explains the use of buildings plus who would not want to give their ADL reroll all 1s to hit.... (thats any unit within 2 inchs gets) Void Shield network is awesome, armour 12 bubbles with 3hp when maxed out. Stronghold book is by far one of the best written additions to 40k. Basically it makes your castlers stronger, and a few crafty players meaner. Like I would put the void shields to cover my half of the table either forcing my enemy to close ground to get in the shields, or bring them down which will pull lots of shooting. Or what i want to do is use it to cover my advancing trannofexs and what not.
Old One Eye
Haruspex w/ Adrenal x2
Venomthrope
Tervigon
Spinegants
6 dakkafexes.
1850. Yes, needs more Psykers but... man that would be fun.
It's fun for nine seconds. Then your opponent kills your Tervigon, and you no longer have any control over your army.
Testing on LD 8 for the army isn't that bad. It's sort of Synapse.
I wouldn't use it in a tournament but in some of my casual games I'll have lots of fun. Maybe drop 3 Fexes for regen on everything and... I dunno.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
I might give it a run this Sunday.
How did you get on with him in the last book? I think with him getting fleet and improved Regen, it could be a very worth while tactic.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
I might give it a run this Sunday.
If you run 1 Tyranno...run 2.
That was my old philosophy.
Swarmy, 3 Guard and 2 Tyrannos backed by Venoms was how I used to crush MSUBA back in the day...but onslaughting rupture cannons was also a guarantee then.
Eldercaveman wrote: Is there any merit to using a Tfex with fleshbourer hive, adrenal glands and regen. Run it up midfield as a line breaker, deal with me or die unit,
I used to run this buddy next to Swarmy for the preferred enemy.
I might give it a run this Sunday.
If you run 1 Tyranno...run 2.
That was my old philosophy.
Swarmy, 3 Guard and 2 Tyrannos backed by Venoms was how I used to crush MSUBA back in the day...but onslaughting rupture cannons was also a guarantee then.
I was thinking of 1 backed up by Carnifexes and Venoms.
D6Damager wrote: I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
I've looked into this. It's good but... It costs 130points, will probably never see combat and you're banking on that unit failing it's Ld check in the first place. It's ok, but not worth 130 points. It could work if you knew your opponent was sort of coming to you as well, then the unit might actually see combat as well.
Yes, we've all had times (especially in 5th) when a Broodlord dominated a squad all by himself or our opponent fired so many guns at the unit that the rest of your army was able to get in there unimpeded.
He still costs too much to be viable. He's more than 2 Warriors.
I still think a variation to this is the best way to run stealers. Doesn't rely on venomthropes, so you can fish for catalyst. Not many armies can deal with 80 stealers just outside their deployment with 2+ cover. Even serpent shields would struggle to dent it in time. For 1850 I'd reduce the zoies to 1 each and add another flyrant.
N.I.B. wrote: I had a fun game against Space Wolves Longfang-spam with these big boys;
Tyranid Prime – Venom Cannon
Tervigon
3 Venomthropes
1 Zoanthrope
1 Zoanthrope
10 Termagants
10 Termagants
3 Dakkafex
3 Dakkafex
3 Dakkafex
1995pts
Very close game which Nids pulled out in the end. 3++ save Dakkafexes, 108 TL S6 shots...
Yeah, that would be a fun list to play. Not very balanced, but imagine the look on your opponent's face.
S.K.Ren wrote: I almost wish I had chosen to Nids to be my first army instead of Eldar... almost. So with the addition of the Crone do Nids have a proper equivalent to the Tzeentch Flying Circus now?
It's a different type of flyer list than daemons. Daemon flyers are more rugged/resilient thanks to Invuln's and Fateweaver letting them re-roll 1 ground test. Tyranid flyers are cheaper and allows them to have better supporting ground units (or more MC's). To me, it's like comparing apples to oranges almost. They play much, much differently.
Gants may not be tall enough to give them 25% cover, especially if the opponent is on higher ground or have taller models. Moreover, they are kind of slow. Roll a 1" on your run and they become a bottleneck for your carnifexes.
Either run gargoyles instead, or don't run a screening unit.
Interveneing unit rule doesn't follow the 25% cover mechanic. Like area terrain it is an exception. So as long as the firing unit is shooting through (even if it is shooting through gaps) and not over a unit, the target gets a 5+ cover save. Being up on multi-level ruins or having a very tall model (like Flyers or a wraithknight) can bypass this by shooting over the unit.
Don't have my book right now so can't look it up, but my understanding is that the original unit has to be able to give the unit behind cover. So even with the models removed, if the original unit did not give the MC cover, then shooting through a unit still will not give the MC cover. However, if the original unit did give it cover, then the MC will get cover when you shoot at it through intervening models, even if the MC is in full sight with no actual models obscuring it.
But like I said, I don't have my book with me so can't verify right now.
Old One Eye
Haruspex w/ Adrenal x2
Venomthrope
Tervigon
Spinegants
6 dakkafexes.
1850. Yes, needs more Psykers but... man that would be fun.
Do it!
That's a crap-ton of MC's!
D6Damager wrote: I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
That's actually an interesting build that I may have to try out one of these days. It's not a very balanced build and you will be in trouble if you don't get first turn against an army like Tau or mechdar, but it can definitely be a fun build to play if things go your way.
ductvader wrote: There...a synapseless list that doesn't care so much that it's synapseless.
Just showing that there are ways of segmenting out parts of your army so that finding Synapse becomes less of an issue.
Nicely done. I myself haven't really considered a synapseless army, but maybe, just maybe, a good TAC tyranid list will take this into account. If you can't get enough synapse into your list, then consider building one that doesn't rely on synapse too much.
Gants may not be tall enough to give them 25% cover, especially if the opponent is on higher ground or have taller models. Moreover, they are kind of slow. Roll a 1" on your run and they become a bottleneck for your carnifexes.
Either run gargoyles instead, or don't run a screening unit.
Interveneing unit rule doesn't follow the 25% cover mechanic. Like area terrain it is an exception. So as long as the firing unit is shooting through (even if it is shooting through gaps) and not over a unit, the target gets a 5+ cover save. Being up on multi-level ruins or having a very tall model (like Flyers or a wraithknight) can bypass this by shooting over the unit.
Don't have my book right now so can't look it up, but my understanding is that the original unit has to be able to give the unit behind cover. So even with the models removed, if the original unit did not give the MC cover, then shooting through a unit still will not give the MC cover. However, if the original unit did give it cover, then the MC will get cover when you shoot at it through intervening models, even if the MC is in full sight with no actual models obscuring it.
But like I said, I don't have my book with me so can't verify right now.
BRB wrote:if a unit is partially hidden from the firer's view by models from a third unit ... it receives a 5+ cover save in the same way as if it were behind terrain. Similarly, if a model fires through the gaps between models in an intervening unite, that target is in cover, even if it is completely visible to the firer. note that this does not apply if the shots go over the unit rather then through it.
Partially hidden does not equate to 25%, also note the part about being completely visible . MC follow all the rules for Infantry when it comes to cover saves...So, unless you are able to draw your line completely over the guants because you are up in some tall ruins or you have a tall model...the guants can still give a MC cover even if they don't obscure them (25%) .
D6Damager wrote: I don't know why people don't see value in multiple units of infiltrating Genestealers. A Broodlord with the Horror should be very annoying vs. Tau and Eldar as well.
yeah... stealers are fleet as well if I am not mistaken
so basically guaranteed 2nd turn charge if at 18" away, and possible 1st turn charge if you go 2nd and they move up...
stealers are what, 12 14 pts now? put enough of em up there, and you really dont need that many to get into combat to wreck the opponents army...
if my kommandos do well for themselves simply by inlfiltrating, at 15 pts a pop, then stealers can definetly wreck some face too.
I put this in a PM, but I'm not worried if people see it, I just need help . So I'm going to copy it into this thread:
This is a fantastic thread! Would anyone mind sharing their thoughts on 2 sample lists I've sketched out for the tyranid players for our AdeptiCon team tournament lists? These are 1000 point lists. The rules are, each player gets 1 HQ, 3 Troop, 1 Fast, 1 Elite, 1 Heavy. One team member can have an extra fast, another an extra elite, another an extra heavy, and the last a fortification. Below, one list uses the fortification, the other the extra heavy, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Base to possibly include in both lists:
Tyrant, wings, 2 x TL brainleech devourers - 230
Tervigon - 195
30 Gaunts - 120
Total - 545
For List 1, I might consider adding:
Venomthrope - 45
Bastion - 75
2 x Carnifex with 2x TL brainleech devourerers - 300
Puts me at 965, so room to upgrade something (devourers for gaunts, a gun for the Bastion if allowed, etc). The fexes are expensive, as is the Bastion trick... I was wishing I could fit in some Gargoyles to screen for the fexes. But I can only do so if I don't get the Bastion (in which case I could fit in 18 gargoyles) and then the Venomthrope won't live.
I was thinking the other nid list might do well with using the second heavy support slot.
So for List 2, I might consider adding:
Mawloc - 140
Mawloc - 140
20 Gargoyles - 120
1 Zoanthrope or Hive Guard - 50 or 55
Puts it at 995 or 1000 (with the Flyrant, Tervigon, and 30 Gaunts from above).
I'm kind of stumped as to whether these would be good or not... any tips appreciated!
I see two things that I like a lot in this "new" codex.
A lot of units have had a small price reduction.
A lot of units may have you buy weapon upgrades in different batches. (Warriors, shrikes, termagaunts.) That way every unit can include some cannon fodder to just eat away shots.
This is good. The problem the old codex was that everything was to exspensive. By the time you made mellee range you where out of models.
RiTides wrote: I put this in a PM, but I'm not worried if people see it, I just need help . So I'm going to copy it into this thread:
This is a fantastic thread! Would anyone mind sharing their thoughts on 2 sample lists I've sketched out for the tyranid players for our AdeptiCon team tournament lists? These are 1000 point lists. The rules are, each player gets 1 HQ, 3 Troop, 1 Fast, 1 Elite, 1 Heavy. One team member can have an extra fast, another an extra elite, another an extra heavy, and the last a fortification. Below, one list uses the fortification, the other the extra heavy, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Base to possibly include in both lists:
Tyrant, wings, 2 x TL brainleech devourers - 230
Tervigon - 195
30 Gaunts - 120
Total - 545
For List 1, I might consider adding:
Venomthrope - 45
Bastion - 75
2 x Carnifex with 2x TL brainleech devourerers - 300
Puts me at 965, so room to upgrade something (devourers for gaunts, a gun for the Bastion if allowed, etc). The fexes are expensive, as is the Bastion trick... I was wishing I could fit in some Gargoyles to screen for the fexes. But I can only do so if I don't get the Bastion (in which case I could fit in 18 gargoyles) and then the Venomthrope won't live.
I was thinking the other nid list might do well with using the second heavy support slot.
So for List 2, I might consider adding:
Mawloc - 140
Mawloc - 140
20 Gargoyles - 120
1 Zoanthrope or Hive Guard - 50 or 55
Puts it at 995 or 1000 (with the Flyrant, Tervigon, and 30 Gaunts from above).
I'm kind of stumped as to whether these would be good or not... any tips appreciated!
I would suggest List 1 over List 2.
Both are very light on synapse and that's gonna kill you. However, to outweigh that, the 36 TL S6 shots will wreck most people's day....AND you can't threaten Land Raiders.
I gather I'm missing something obvious here... but I don't see why you can't take 2.
Carnifexes come with two pairs of scything talons. The only restriction on swapping talons is on crushing claws. The relevant dot point simply says "Any model may take items from the Monstrous Bio-cannons and Biomorphs list".
The monstrous bio-cannons list then says "A model may replace any pair of scything talons with one of the following."
So I don't see why you can't take two... unless you interpret the monstrous bio-cannons intro to limit it... in which case a Flyrant can't have two TLdevs.
I gather I'm missing something obvious here... but I don't see why you can't take 2.
Carnifexes come with two pairs of scything talons. The only restriction on swapping talons is on crushing claws. The relevant dot point simply says "Any model may take items from the Monstrous Bio-cannons and Biomorphs list".
The monstrous bio-cannons list then says "A model may replace any pair of scything talons with one of the following."
So I don't see why you can't take two... unless you interpret the monstrous bio-cannons intro to limit it... in which case a Flyrant can't have two TLdevs.
Tyrant, wings, 2 x TL brainleech devourers - 230
Tervigon - 195
30 Gaunts - 120
Total - 545
For List 1, I might consider adding:
Venomthrope - 45
Bastion - 75
2 x Carnifex with 2x TL brainleech devourerers - 300
Puts me at 965, so room to upgrade something (devourers for gaunts, a gun for the Bastion if allowed, etc). The fexes are expensive, as is the Bastion trick... I was wishing I could fit in some Gargoyles to screen for the fexes. But I can only do so if I don't get the Bastion (in which case I could fit in 18 gargoyles) and then the Venomthrope won't live.
List one is very similar to a build I am making for Adepticon...
I gather I'm missing something obvious here... but I don't see why you can't take 2.
Carnifexes come with two pairs of scything talons. The only restriction on swapping talons is on crushing claws. The relevant dot point simply says "Any model may take items from the Monstrous Bio-cannons and Biomorphs list".
The monstrous bio-cannons list then says "A model may replace any pair of scything talons with one of the following."
So I don't see why you can't take two... unless you interpret the monstrous bio-cannons intro to limit it... in which case a Flyrant can't have two TLdevs.
There is a little 1 next to the weapon, which corresponds with a note at the end of the biomorphs saying the model may only take one of these weapons.
Thanks, roxor08. It does seem hard to get synapse with the AdeptiCon team tourney restrictions, I'll think about it. Here's an alternate:
Tyrant, wings, 2 x TL brainleech devourers - 230
Tervigon - 195
30 Gaunts - 120
Crone - 155
2 x Carnifex with 2x TL brainleech devourerers - 300
Total - 1000
Or I could drop a Carnifex for 3 Zoanthropes for more synapse . Would that help, or is the loss of the Carnifex not worth it?
Finally, am I reading things right that people are thinking that running Carnifexes out of synapse is OK? Or at least, if they're their own unit, rather than paired together? That's very interesting.
I don't see too much worry if your fail leadership. Even if there are 2 fexs, the hits are at AP-, so you would still get the 3+ armor. If it was at AP2, then I would see the problem. I've also had really good luck in my first 2 matches with the new dex passing leadership the 3 times I needed it.
Unless you want to force the mishap. Besides, there should be other units nearby and in base with the quad-gun anyways. All you need to do is to get rid of those and your flyers are free to come in interceptor-free.
Personally, I'd deepstrike the Mawloc to hit the unit manning the quad-gun itself, with the blast marker touching the quad-gun as well. Of course if I kill the quad-gun, then consider it collateral damage.
While I love the Mawloc and will most likely be using it, a lot of these posts are assuming that you do not scatter off of the target unit. I can tell you, I used the mawloc 4 times in the prev book and scattered off the target unit EVERY time. I think we need to keep in mind that we are talking best case scenario on all of this
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Red Corsair wrote: On a side note, how are others feelings about using the skyshield to protect FMC like crones. Its a flat 4++ so it could be big for a pair of flyrants or crones to stage an attack from if you positioned it forward enough and center.
The more I consider it, the more I feel I will need to get a skyshield; this just appears too good not to use it
Thinking about this for a 1750 tourney list that has restrictions (main one being maximum 2 flyers allowed)
Brainleech flyrant, hive Commander
Tyranid prime
Zoanthrope
Zoanthrope
Venomthrope
5 x genestealers with brood lord
5 x genestealers with brood lord
20 x gaunts
2 x dakkafexxes
3 x dakkafexxes
Mawloc
Prime is warlord and attached to the fexxes. Gaunts screen them, the zoeys and venomthrope as they plod up the table. Flyrant does what he usually does. Genestealers infiltrate where possible and use the horror to help protect the dakkefexes etc or camp objectives with one brood outflanking if needed
I don't play nids at the moment, but I've been reading through the thread and I have to say some of the builds are rather scary. It also looks like some of them would be rather cheap it build (compared to last edition's builds and current ones), especially if the release deals are still up.
And obviously, opinion may be that it's a dumb points sink, but...
I can't find the rule that says I can't have a walking HT joining a brood of three Carnifex... can someone point me to the BRB or codex page?
EDIT: Also, am I reading something wrong when I see that the Norn Crown makes his Synapse range 18", which added to the Primaris power is 24", and could potentially be 30" Synapse range off one HT, with a lucky Warlord roll?
I used to run a prime and swarmlord, with the prime as HQ who would deny slay the warlord from the enemy by hiding in units. I've just realised if I do this now, swarmlord looses his 18" synapse.
So are spinefists good weapons to give Gaunts now? i've noticed many lists taking them now, when in 5th you would never take them. Are they really that much better than the standard fleshborers now?
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So are spinefists good weapons to give Gaunts now? i've noticed many lists taking them now, when in 5th you would never take them. Are they really that much better than the standard fleshborers now?
In general, yes. They're roughly equal on T4 targets, better on T3 and T7, worse on T5 (if I remember the math in this thread right).
Just want to say a big thank you to JY2 for doing this thread. I am still in shock of the new codex, but reading this makes me feel a little better... I still think nids are going to have a hard time competitively against Tau and Eldar.. Thanks again
In general when you can fit 9 MC easily (that's relative) into a 1750 list, that is just... really difficult for your opponent. You essentially make your opponent worry about problem pieces, then once they deal with those, they almost have to go after your troops because there is not a great chance that anyone could take down 9 MC. I think that although there are some slight plunders with the new Nids codex, it is far from down and out. When played under the hands of a skilled player like jy2, those bugs will do some real damage. I think that Tyranids are not as great as the top (Eldar, Daemons, Tau, Crons) but I think that its fair to say they are a good runner up. I too appreciate the time that has been put into this thread, and I look forward to seeing what happens after the "dust" settles, to see what lists emerge as almighty. I am going to post a list that I have been working on with none other than... ImotekhTheStormlord. It should be relatively standard, and hope we can get some good suggestions on it.
Spinefists are worse than fleshborer against some toughness values, T7 obviously because they can't put a wound, and T5. Against T6, both wound on but spinefists take the edge thanks to rerolls to hit. Equal on T4, slight advantage towards T3 for spinefists. The main differences will be against light vehicles, which fleshborer have a little chance to glance, but having to shoot on vehicles with gaunts is quite an extreme possibility, isn't it ? On the other hand, in situations where you have to rely on snapshots (pinned out of synapse, GTG, against FMC, receiving a charge), spinefists are vastly superior : 30% chance to hit VS 17%.
IMHO, prices being identical, I would take spinefists any day.
The only reason I see to to model some termagant miniatures with fleshborers, is because the Tervigon still spawns only this version... dumb.
Am i reading bad the codex or is it possible to give 2x twinlinked devourer with brain worms to a carnifex?
that would be 12 rerollable shots at str 6 for each fex....
if we add regen it could make the fexes kinda mobile shooting platforms....
Spine fists are a great tip! just confirmed the maths for myself. Desperation is the only thing that leads me to shoot at anything T5-6 or greater (or AV10+) with my gaunt's so they are a very good option.
There is a fair amount of Tau lately in my area too and causing another 4 (ish) wounds per 30 gaunt's is awesome!
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Just want to say a big thank you to JY2 for doing this thread. I am still in shock of the new codex, but reading this makes me feel a little better... I still think nids are going to have a hard time competitively against Tau and Eldar.. Thanks again
... and your point is?? (Everything has a problem competing against Tau and Eldar!)
badula wrote: Am i reading bad the codex or is it possible to give 2x twinlinked devourer with brain worms to a carnifex?
that would be 12 rerollable shots at str 6 for each fex....
if we add regen it could make the fexes kinda mobile shooting platforms....
or am i misisng something?
Yes you can, and you could with the last codex too.
Ferrum_Sanguinis wrote: So are spinefists good weapons to give Gaunts now? i've noticed many lists taking them now, when in 5th you would never take them. Are they really that much better than the standard fleshborers now?
In general, yes. They're roughly equal on T4 targets, better on T3 and T7, worse on T5 (if I remember the math in this thread right).
It should be noted that spinefists were the preferred choice back in 3ed and 4ed for various reasons. So it could be more of 'hey I have a shed load of these and now they don't cost a point more then fleshborers for some stupid reason' then any sort of tactical choice.
I just want to mention that the new tyranid titan (I believe it is the new one, it doesn't fly but has 2 cannons) is terrifying. We had a 10 hour tournament in apocalypse and this guy was putting more units on the table by turn 4. Thankfully I was on his side but would have loved going against him. He was still spamming units and giving birth at every turn and once his titan hit the field he immediately mowed down a warhound titan before turn 2 assault (I had a death star of nobz and a bike boss charging the titan). Finally I have to badger the guy to leave me enough room to put my stompa onto the field and my last squad of bikes. (I fielded 21 model count Ork army, yeah everyone else was floored when they heard me proclaim I brought an elite Ork army too) Needless to say we rolled up the imperials and threw away the key, well we rolled that up too but it got lost in dah looting.
Needless to say, new Tyranids are cheap and terrifying.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Just want to say a big thank you to JY2 for doing this thread. I am still in shock of the new codex, but reading this makes me feel a little better... I still think nids are going to have a hard time competitively against Tau and Eldar.. Thanks again
... and your point is?? (Everything has a problem competing against Tau and Eldar!)
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Just want to say a big thank you to JY2 for doing this thread. I am still in shock of the new codex, but reading this makes me feel a little better... I still think nids are going to have a hard time competitively against Tau and Eldar.. Thanks again
... and your point is?? (Everything has a problem competing against Tau and Eldar!)
Tau and Eldar were a mistake and an anomaly, giving more armies "spammable cheese" is not the answer.. I personally hope that we never see another codex at that power level. Against every other codex, I think the new nids will be just fine, and I hope that any new releases after this stay at that level.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Just want to say a big thank you to JY2 for doing this thread. I am still in shock of the new codex, but reading this makes me feel a little better... I still think nids are going to have a hard time competitively against Tau and Eldar.. Thanks again
... and your point is?? (Everything has a problem competing against Tau and Eldar!)
Tau and Eldar were a mistake and an anomaly, giving more armies "spammable cheese" is not the answer.. I personally hope that we never see another codex at that power level. Against every other codex, I think the new nids will be just fine, and I hope that any new releases after this stay at that level.
Then we are stuck with Tau/Eldar dominance for a long, long time. The only solution is to bring everyone into line. Guess who just got new codices? The newer codices must be up to that level. Anomaly, huh? Just like GK/IG/Necron in 5th? GW randomly picks the winners and losers.
Eiluj The Farseer wrote: Just want to say a big thank you to JY2 for doing this thread. I am still in shock of the new codex, but reading this makes me feel a little better... I still think nids are going to have a hard time competitively against Tau and Eldar.. Thanks again
... and your point is?? (Everything has a problem competing against Tau and Eldar!)
Tau and Eldar were a mistake and an anomaly, giving more armies "spammable cheese" is not the answer.. I personally hope that we never see another codex at that power level. Against every other codex, I think the new nids will be just fine, and I hope that any new releases after this stay at that level.
Then we are stuck with Tau/Eldar dominance for a long, long time. The only solution is to bring everyone into line. Guess who just got new codices? The newer codices must be up to that level. Anomaly, huh? Just like GK/IG/Necron in 5th? GW randomly picks the winners and losers.
Please, randomly picking which army is strongest. Don't give them much credit.
Sustained Assault: Any troop unit that is wiped out or falling back and can be removed from the table at the start of the owning players movement phase and replaced with a new unit of the same type. This new unit starts with the same number of models as the removed unit and has no upgrades. This new unit enters play from the owning players board edge and can act normally the turn they arrive.
Having player 10 or so Games now with the New dex I think the best troop choice to take is spinegaunts, now they no longer have to pay to take the upgrade l think it's a must, twin linked is more useful in more situations than str4.
Every Game I have used the exocrine in it has kicked ass very hard, yeah it's got a 30" threat range but the amount of shots and the option of a large blast are just simply too good, I am going to start taking regen on the 2 use
Tau and Eldar were a mistake and an anomaly, giving more armies "spammable cheese" is not the answer.. I personally hope that we never see another codex at that power level. Against every other codex, I think the new nids will be just fine, and I hope that any new releases after this stay at that level.
QFT.
Every single response to all tactics threads ends up coming down to can <insert army/unit here> stand up to Tau or Eldar? Seeing as how both armies have access to superior shooting and Ignores Cover in spades, the answer will always be no. I'm not sure how practical judging every unit or list in the game against the HARDest top tier army lists really is, as a large majority of the player population isn't planning to play in the tournament circuit.
Let's just take this moment to say that NO, the unit you're wanting to play with (from the codex not named Tau or Eldar) will not help you to defeat the nasty Tau and Eldar lists you're hearing about on the net. The combination of speed, superior firepower, and ignores cover where needed is the best recipe for TAC success. Yes, we know...it doesn't seem fair.
Ok, now that that's out of the way, can we please just get on with comparing the other codecies against one another? I know it may seem silly, but it may be the only shot to actually have decent conversations around here.
Just to dot the I and cross the T, Ignores Cover really has ended up being the bane of 40k. It used to be a rare commodity, but now it's everywhere, and the guns that have it (or can get it because of markerlights) are far too powerful for such an added bonus. I don't have any issue with you killing my unit in one volley of fire, but it's not such a kick in the pants if I at least get to roll some saves before I put them in the army case...
Other than having more access to Ignores Cover Eldar and Tau aren't really an anomaly, off the top of my head both Grav Spam Bikes and IG can give them a run for there money in terms of ranged firepower.
The main reason Eldar and Tau get brought up as benchmarks all the time is because they are the easiest of the top tier builds to theoryhammer against because they are shooting based (usually). There are plenty of other top tier builds/armies such as Daemons (Flying Circus and Screamerstar) and Wraithwing, but its much harder to theoryhammer with them because they do a big chunk of their damage in assault. This brings far more variables into play, you can't tell exactly what is going to be attacking what, or when anything will actually start doing damage (and as such how much damage it will do during the game) as distance/range/threat ranges/board control isn't a quantiative measure. With shooting based armies (Guard and top end Marine lists fit in here as well) its much easier - you mathhammer out a couple of rounds of shooting - if the other army is ruined then you probably win - if not then you probably lose.
HQ Choices
Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices
Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices
Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack
Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support
Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs
-General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
So after a look over the Codex. Nids are still fail.
Broodlord is still BS 0 so he can still roll Haemorrhage on the Biomancy table & end up with an useless power Why are Warriors still 40 points Ogryns are T5 & there not holding the Ld of the army together. Warriors should have been 16 points but only had 2 wounds Ripper Swarms are how much now? They have Eternal Warrior right. No ... so I'm just better of with 3 Termagants for the same cost & the Termagants have guns too Scything Talons don't re-roll because Melee weapons Really Needed Nerf
I think the biggest thing people are going to have to change to make nids successful is their frame of mind on at least a couple things.
Placing objectives close to your board edge
why bother if you don't have any reserves walking on. That's 1+ units not living up to their full potential. Stay on the move forward as much as possible. Back field objective campers almost shouldn't exist. People tend to flip out when you're entire force in barreling towards them. Enemy unit gets close? You've got 2-3 units close by to jump on it (if necessary). Everything in the army should be working towards assaulting, that's why the vores all went up an attack.
Upgrades mean better.
I believe in the nids case quantity is going to outweigh quality in almost every instance. More synapse is going to be better than less, and everything should stay pretty close. More ablative wounds is better.
I could be wrong but I feel these couple of principles could make nids a lot more fathomable
Tau and Eldar were a mistake and an anomaly, giving more armies "spammable cheese" is not the answer.. I personally hope that we never see another codex at that power level. Against every other codex, I think the new nids will be just fine, and I hope that any new releases after this stay at that level.
QFT.
Every single response to all tactics threads ends up coming down to can <insert army/unit here> stand up to Tau or Eldar? Seeing as how both armies have access to superior shooting and Ignores Cover in spades, the answer will always be no. I'm not sure how practical judging every unit or list in the game against the HARDest top tier army lists really is, as a large majority of the player population isn't planning to play in the tournament circuit.
Let's just take this moment to say that NO, the unit you're wanting to play with (from the codex not named Tau or Eldar) will not help you to defeat the nasty Tau and Eldar lists you're hearing about on the net. The combination of speed, superior firepower, and ignores cover where needed is the best recipe for TAC success. Yes, we know...it doesn't seem fair.
Ok, now that that's out of the way, can we please just get on with comparing the other codecies against one another? I know it may seem silly, but it may be the only shot to actually have decent conversations around here.
Just to dot the I and cross the T, Ignores Cover really has ended up being the bane of 40k. It used to be a rare commodity, but now it's everywhere, and the guns that have it (or can get it because of markerlights) are far too powerful for such an added bonus. I don't have any issue with you killing my unit in one volley of fire, but it's not such a kick in the pants if I at least get to roll some saves before I put them in the army case...
It looks to me that the tau and eldar lists that give people so many problems are dependent on a few units with powerful shooting at range. They dont have volume of fire or close range survivability. I think the counter to these lists is not a few poweful units, it is swarms of fast units.
Fast nids might be the answer
3 squads of 20 gargoyles 360 points
deathleaper 130 points
A deep striking trygon prime with miasma cannon 255 points
And 2 mawlocs 260 points or tfexes 350 points
Maybe even a bunch of infiltrating genesteelers
Finish out with a flyrant, tyrant guard and gaunts
That should give taudar some trouble. Keep your flyrant on the ground with guard until he is needed for anti air.
Deathleaper alone is icredible against taudar. He doesnt need cover, he cant be overwatched, he is immune to templates, he can infiltrate, and he can take anything they are likely to field in assault. Get him into assault with some broadsides and a buffmander and you have already won.
Yorkskargrim wrote: HQ Choices
Hive Tyrant: -5 PPM; +1BS; Loses BRB powers; lost 2+ armor save option; loses starting Lashwhip/Bonesword (this upgrade now costs 20 points I think)
SwarmLord: +5 PPM; +1BS; +1 Mastery Level -1 psychic power; Loses BRB Powers; no longer forces rerolls of successful ++ saves
Tervigon: +35 PPM; +1 I; -2 Powers; Loses BRB Powers; no longer shares AG/TS; kills larger area of gaunts; spawns gaunts no longer move or charge
Tyranid Prime: +45 PPM
Deathleaper: now HQ from Elites; -10 PPM; gain Infiltrate; Fleshhooks lose Rending
Old One Eye: now HQ from HS; -40 PPM; +1I
Elite Choices
Hive Guard: +5 PPM; -1BS
Lictor: -15 PPM; gain Infiltrate
Pyrovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A; No more Spores
Venomthrope: -10 PPM; Gains Shroud instead of default 5+c save; No more Spores
Zoanthrope: -10 PPM; Mastery Level 2; Loses BRB powers; No more Spores; Now Brotherhood of Psykers (not sure if this is a gain or loss, honestly; makes the whole unit very "all or nothing")
Troop Choices
Tyranid Warriors: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
Genestealers: +/- 0 PPM; No more Spores
--Broodlord: +/- 0 PPM; Single default power (positive or negative is up for debate I suppose)
Termagants: -1 PPM; can mix weapon types within a unit; No more Spores; cost of TS/AG increased
Hormagaunts: -1 PPM; No more Spores; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses; cost of TS/AG increased
Ripper Swarms: +3 PPM; No longer guaranteed self destruct out of Synapse
Fast Attack
Shrikes: +/- 0 PPM
Harpy: -25 PPM; +1W, A
Gargoyles: +/- 0 PPM
Sky Slasher Swarms: +3 PPM
Raveners: +/- 0 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWsSTs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Spore Mine Clusters: -5 PPM
Heavy Support
Carnifex: -40 PPM, +1I; -1A; No more Spores
Biovore: -5 PPM; +1W, I, A
Trygon: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Trygon Prime: -10 PPM; -1A base, but now get +1A from 2 sets of CCWs; STs no longer reroll 1s/misses
Mawloc: -30 PPM; better From Below rule
Tyranofex: -75! PPM; +1I
Biomorphs
-General-
Adrenal Glands: Grants Fleet along with Furious Charge
Toxin Sacs: No changes
Regeneration: Regain a wound on a 4+ instead of 6(I believe?)
-Melee-
Scything Talons: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP6 (lolz); No longer reroll 1s/misses
Rending Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; AP5
Crushing Claws: Grants extra attack with another CC biomorph; No longer forces I1 for MCs; S+1; Armorbane; AP2 for non MCs; Lost D3 bonus attacks
-Ranged-
Devourer: No longer causes -1 to Ld
edit 1: Updated Swarmlord to +1ML, -1 power known
edit 2: Updated for lack of Spores
edit 3: Points adjustments and effects of some biomorphs.
So after a look over the Codex. Nids are still fail.
Broodlord is still BS 0 so he can still roll Haemorrhage on the Biomancy table & end up with an useless power Why are Warriors still 40 points Ogryns are T5 & there not holding the Ld of the army together. Warriors should have been 16 points but only had 2 wounds Ripper Swarms are how much now? They have Eternal Warrior right. No ... so I'm just better of with 3 Termagants for the same cost & the Termagants have guns too Scything Talons don't re-roll because Melee weapons Really Needed Nerf
You got a fair few things wrong. Here's a couple:
Warriors are not 40 points check their entry again.
Shrikes got cheaper check their entry again.
Broodlords always have the same psychic power (He can't roll for powers) and even if he could he would not be getting Haemorrhage because all Tyranids lost access to the BRB powers.
You missed that the Wings upgrade on Tyrants got considerably cheaper.
Broodlord is still BS 0 so he can still roll Haemorrhage on the Biomancy table & end up with an useless power
I love how your summary mentions that the Broodlord can ONLY know The Horror and yet you still bring up BS 0 as a thing to complain about. It's like you haven't even read the codex and are just quoting summaries Steamdragon put up in the rumours section.
Formosa wrote: Having player 10 or so Games now with the New dex I think the best troop choice to take is spinegaunts, now they no longer have to pay to take the upgrade l think it's a must, twin linked is more useful in more situations than str4.
Every Game I have used the exocrine in it has kicked ass very hard, yeah it's got a 30" threat range but the amount of shots and the option of a large blast are just simply too good, I am going to start taking regen on the 2 use
This is where some of my thinking is at present - S3 twin-linked is probably better than a straight S4 when you're shooting at BS3. I am though looking at taking at least 1 troop tervigon so putting at least 10 devourers behind the 20 spinegaunts.
Exocrine does sounds interesting, but the problem is that so does a lot of the HS section. Fexes are cheaper and viable as dakka fex broods, biovores are still very good for the cost, tyrannofex is worth a run out as a close combat template fiend with the lower costs. Nice to have a slot with some real choices in I suppose. I can't though see my lovely trygon models getting much table time though.
l0k1 wrote: I don't play nids at the moment, but I've been reading through the thread and I have to say some of the builds are rather scary. It also looks like some of them would be rather cheap it build (compared to last edition's builds and current ones), especially if the release deals are still up.
Dito. I don't play Nids either, but I love to win against them and I usually did (up to the 3rd edition when Nids were really good). MC builds are usually hard to deal with when you want to field a TAC list.
Intresting note that mostly effects the HS section, and a few FA/elites.
Re-read the instinctive behavior guys it only triggers after a Ld check, and even then it does trigger it might not even do anything you care about, if you plan correctly.
A fearless shooty guy with "hunt"cares not for synapse, a CC oriented loner with "feed" also give no much feths.
You have issues with synapse, just pack guys who don't care too much when they lose it. for many the worst case scenario end up with "cant run" or a not-very-impressive gun getting disabled.
Also, the Ld10 guys are also very unlikely to fail their synapse from the start, so they are not in much trouble.
In fact, you can have a whole list of "give no feth about synapse"
A short list of thoes who got no synapse, but don't really care for it, or care less.
OOE (biggest problem is he cant run, and must charge nearest enemy. not much of an issue is it?)
Deathleaper (Ld 10, unlikely to fail. )
Genestealers (got no IB, the only troops here.)
Haruspex (mostly CC beast, though that thong shot would be a shame to lose)
Lictor (same as deathleaper)
Crone (Ld10, and especially after shooting the haywire or when you dont need it, as most of her power is in CC and vectors)
Spore Mine (obvious reasons)
Lone carnifex without guns
Exorine (biggest issue is loss of control, but she shoots normally.)
Mawlock (same as OOE)
Trygon/prime (got no IB)
T-fex (they lose control, but still shoot.)
As you can see, quite a few options that dont even CARE about IB, once you add in the ones who give out their own synapse, you got yourself quite a pool of options to build a list with, without being dragged down by synapse being a limiting factor.
Honesly, the biggest issues with synapse, are troops.
If you can manage with warriors and genestealer troops, you are no longet synapse dependent for neatly anything. (except the awesome biovores)
BoomWolf wrote: Intresting note that mostly effects the HS section, and a few FA/elites.
A short list of thoes who got no synapse, but don't really care for it, or care less.
OOE (biggest problem is he cant run, and must charge nearest enemy. not much of an issue is it?)
Deathleaper (Ld 10, unlikely to fail. )
Genestealers (got no IB, the only troops here.)
Haruspex (mostly CC beast, though that thong shot would be a shame to lose)
Lictor (same as deathleaper)
Crone (Ld10, and especially after shooting the haywire or when you dont need it, as most of her power is in CC and vectors)
Spore Mine (obvious reasons)
Lone carnifex without guns
Exorine (biggest issue is loss of control, but she shoots normally.)
Mawlock (same as OOE)
Trygon/prime (got no IB)
T-fex (they lose control, but still shoot.)
As you can see, quite a few options that dont even CARE about IB, once you add in the ones who give out their own synapse, you got yourself quite a pool of options to build a list with, without being dragged down by synapse being a limiting factor.
Synergy between those different units is a bit of an issue as is scoring. Nidzilla seems the obvious choice. I hope the Vanguard slate offers a formation that will allow a kind of viable scout/infiltrate army based around Lictors, Deathleaper and Genestealers.
@Boomwolf: I'm with ya that instinctive behavior doesn't have to be the bane of tyranid lists everywhere. The troop section is really the only place it's a true killer, which is why I'm just going to make running my Genestealers work. I think I'll start my lists with 5 or 6 units of 5 genestealers that I'll infiltrate, hide, counterassault with, and basically just ask to score on objectives. Seeing as how they still don't have access to some sort of assault grenades, it's hard to ask them to do the heavy lifting when it comes to enemy model removal, but now that most of the bugs (especially the big mean ones) are cheaper, we don't have to.
The Shadow wrote: Posted this in another thread, so I'll C+P it here. Just my thoughts:
I've seen a fair few people saying some good things about the new fliers - in particular the Crone - but I really don't think they're very good at all. If your opponent has a BS5+ model on a Quad Gun, chances are that they're dead as soon as they come in. Yes, the Crone will maul enemy fliers, but it won't be allowed to live long enough to do so.
I think the Mawloc is a great way to counter the Quad Gun. If kept in reserves, it can come in on (hopefully) the same turn as the Crone or earlier, and can use it's Terror from the Deep attack on the squad manning the Quad Gun, allowing the Crone to enter later in the same turn without being Intercepted.
My army list idea:
(Scroll down past first few paragraphs if you want to skip my little intro and get straight to the list)
Hey Im new to these forums, and new to 40k kind of
I used to have some tyranids when younger and loved them, (had orks before i discovered tyranids, i was just a kid though) so recently decided to start building an army. Im mostly interested in modelling, converting and painting, but obviously would also like to have a functioning army. I haven’t played the game before and only know the basics. I work in 3D and love character/creature art hents why I want to start learning to use green stuff to sculpt on my miniatures as I am used to sculpting in 3d digitally. Was disappointed when they removed parasite, ymgarls etc cause I was looking forward to converting them! ah well
Here is an idea for an army list I have been thinking of based on the new codex.
I know it would be a lot of points!
But I just tried to see what could be done maxing out the army list with 6 troops, 2 hq, 3 heavys, 3 fasts and 3 elites.
Take it with a pinch of salt its just some ideas, and for smaller points lists units can just be disincluded, such as the scout section, or the zoans, etc..
But just some ideas about ways things could potentially be positioned/synergised/combined.
WOULD BE GREAT TO GET SOME FEEDBACK from all you guys who know your stuff, cause I really don’t but I have always loved the way tyranids look and therefore would like to have them as an army.
Im expecting my list to be picked apart like hell as my knowledge is small in 40k rules etc, but hey everyones gotta start somewhere
Again- I know its probably a massively to high point cost army- but like I said it is just ideas and parts can be removed
Would love to hear what anyone has to say- and remember im new so probably made silly mistakes!
This is just a type up of a little drawing I did of positions of the army ( I think it would be easier to see as a drawing instead of a list as you can see better what units are more grouped together but here goes)
Think it has a good amount of synapse throughout- and a good range of units working for different goals e.g assaulting and distracting, scouting and infiltrating, shielding those behind long enough to get them into combat, providing synapse, shooting etc….
Look forward to hearing peoples responses/feedback ideas
Just thought if you hit the enemy with so many different units working together in different ways it might end up getting the enemy really overwhelmed and somewhere with too many targets they will ignore something and shoot something else that will lead to getting into combat and their demise- like perhaps at the start- if they focus on the flyers the scouts might get them, or if they focus on the scouts the flyers might get them- and maybe they will attack these enough to let all the midfielders and mid/backs run forward and overswarm into combat.
---+ Upfront assault flyers and distractors---
>Fast- 30 odd gargoyle shield
>Fast- Shrike unit- either assaulters, or mixed assaulters and shooters since they can mix weapons now, but probably just assaulters as they should get into combat fairly fast- depends if want to get straight into combat or fly around shooting. Combat probably better if possible.
>Hq- Flyrant- storm forward with the rest as a shield also
---+ Enemy back yard infiltrators and distractors/scouts---(Kind of just a lucky helpting card on the side that might not work out but could help infiltrate and distract)
>Troop- Genestealers and broodlord- infiltrating
>Elite- Lictors infiltrating also or deep striking
>Optional: Fast- Raveners deep striking (could fill fast slot with hive chrone instead though)
>Heavy: Mawloc- deep striking with terror- hopefully near lictors so no scatter, if they survive
---+ Core swarm midfield---
>Troop- 30 termagaunts shield
>Troop- 20-30 off hormagaunts shield
>Elite- Hive guard for long range shooting ignoring cover- or perhaps haruspex used instead in slot
>Troop- Shooting warriors (or mixed group)
>Troop- Assaulting close combat warriors- hopefully using all units above as shields to get to combat
(The above 2 units of warriors could be combined into one mixed unit perhaps but thought it would be better to split so more chance of overkill if one is wiped out instead of killing them all)
---+Mid/Back field---
>Elite: Zoanthropes for extra synapse plus creeping up with psychic powers- OR Venomthropes instead to create the cover saves
>Heavy: Carnifexes shielded hopefully by those infront long enough to get into combat (or would these be better placed further upfront)
>HQ- Second hq another flyrant or just tyrant- warlord more protected to rear possibly (Might be better to shoose a warrior prime and have him mid field to support and enhance the warriors)
---+Far Back field---
>Troop: Tervigant- back synapse plus spawning babies to run forward
>Heavy: Biovore brood or exocrine for long range shooting
Thanks alot for the time to read, this is my first forum post!
Swarmsculptor wrote: HQ -Flyrant -Second hq another flyrant or just tyrant- warlord more protected to rear possibly (Might be better to shoose a warrior prime and have him mid field to support and enhance the warriors)
Troop: -Tervigant -Shooting warriors (or mixed group) -Assaulting close combat warriors -20-30 off hormagaunts shield -30 termagaunts shield -Genestealers and broodlord
Fast -Optional:Raveners deep striking (could fill fast slot with hive chrone instead though) -30 odd gargoyle shield - Shrike unit- either assaulters, or mixed assaulters and shooters Elite: -Zoanthropes OR Venomthropes -Hive guard -Lictors
Heavy: -Biovore brood or exocrine for long range shooting -Carnifexes -Mawloc
I edited your above post because I simply could not understand the army list otherwise...it looks like you're looking to fill all your slots with different kinds of creatures?
With mid-sized units I think the above would come out near 3000 pts.
Just showing that there are ways of segmenting out parts of your army so that finding Synapse becomes less of an issue.
Nicely done. I myself haven't really considered a synapseless army, but maybe, just maybe, a good TAC tyranid list will take this into account. If you can't get enough synapse into your list, then consider building one that doesn't rely on synapse too much.
I was personally growing weary of the cries of "kill the synapse and tyranids are done" and "oh but what happens when I kill creatures A and B?"
Simply put, I have plans in place and creatures that can do their job regardless.
The idea of the vanguard strike and possible dataslate leans heavily on the idea of invasion style forces which are often sent to battle before "Mama" shows up to hand out orders. I am personally starting all of my lists with the use of a Tervigon and 2 3 man Warrior squads with stranglers...after that...I can add or not add synapse at my leisure.
Why 2000 pt DOC? Probably the worst way to prove a point is by using an optional rule change that directly boosts the nids biggest weak spots.
I'd like to see a 1750 TAC list deal with a decent opponent. And no, it doesn't even need to be Taudar, feth Taudar I think most people are bored with them anyway
Still looking forward to the match, just not going to garner the information I think was more being sought after.
Why 2000 pt DOC? Probably the worst way to prove a point is by using an optional rule change that directly boosts the nids biggest weak spots.
I'd like to see a 1750 TAC list deal with a decent opponent. And no, it doesn't even need to be Taudar, feth Taudar I think most people are bored with them anyway
Still looking forward to the match, just not going to garner the information I think was more being sought after.
Ugh!
People still think Double FOC is optional and not playing it at 2k isn't a house ruling used by tournaments.
airmang wrote: Jy2 don't forget that Shrikes can take flesh hooks now. Even though they're not the best unit they can flush out units in cover. Also I would see lash whips as a bonus now as before it only lowered the I of models in base to base, so you would still get hit by models further away. Now you just go before all the models in the unit. Oh and one of the biggest Pro's for all the monstrous creatures is the addition of fleet from adrenal glands! It's HUGE! (IMHO)
No worries guys. In my batrep, I was debating over taking single-FOC and a wide variety of guys, but I settled on taking a playstyle that I wanted to try out. Yeah, this battle won't be indicative of a normal Tyranid army, but that was not my plan with this battle.
My next game with bugs will be with a much more "normal" list and it will be against a competitive White Scars army.
Why 2000 pt DOC? Probably the worst way to prove a point is by using an optional rule change that directly boosts the nids biggest weak spots.
I'd like to see a 1750 TAC list deal with a decent opponent. And no, it doesn't even need to be Taudar, feth Taudar I think most people are bored with them anyway
Still looking forward to the match, just not going to garner the information I think was more being sought after.
Ugh!
People still think Double FOC is optional and not playing it at 2k isn't a house ruling used by tournaments.
Maybe its an Oz verse Yank thing but from my own experience double FOC is a casual format. Heck I can beat a single FOC tau army with almost every other book utilizing double FOC. Dual FOC > allies.
I tried a 'refined' list using the Swarmlord and Flyrant last night and Im not pleased with the results. I lost, which is fine (Because I also wasted points on a Haruspex to try him out in a real life game to no avail) But I feel like the points just cant be justified on a slow bullet magnet.
I love the bonus to reserve rolls, losing that on Tyrants hurt me big. I was able to deep strike Trygon Prime/Mawloc/Crone all on turn two.
Mawloc WRECKED FACE. She landed perfectly on 9 bikers in a Dark Angels list and doubled tapped them all off the board. She then failed to kill the Land Raider beside her and died.
Crone came in and hit a landraider with two tentaclids and...I rolled two 1's. She then got gunned down out of the sky (I rolled horribly on all saves last night)
Trygon Prime performed great as always, but thats a given.
I really think Flyrant/Deathleaper are going to be my HQ's for a long while.
Also, I'm for the next few games using Spike Rifles on all Gaunts...too many games have gone where those units never shoot simply because they are holding an object and targets are slightly out of range. I'd rather be wounding on a 5 up than not wounding at all.
Are Tervigons still considered mandatory? I tend to like to run a heavy MC/FMC list, and at 1500 pts have 7x with counting Mama. Been thinking about adding 2x 3-man Warrior squads with Barbed Stranglers, and think they'd be more useful; sure, Mama can spawn babies, but having 2x 3-man Synapse units behind an ADL with Venomthrope shrouding would benefit the Warriors a bit more. Not to mention making the backfield Synapse print bigger by putting them at each side of the ADL as far as they'll go.
Then there's the psychic potential of Mama. Not entirely sure which one to do. Might try both and see which one I like. I just think Mama would have a bigger target on her head and even with a 2+ cover save might find some trouble. I dunno.
Gak! So let me ask you all then, what should I do with this guy?
I guess I can rip his arms off (onooes but I used glue) and replace them with bone swords to make him a Swarmloard or something? Whats the playability of a Hive Tyrant with double cannons hanging out as a back feild synapse anchor with a pair of Tyranofexz and venomthropes?
Stick him on a quad gun and agis line give him the crown and have him be a 24" synapse (with dominion) also good to go and kill there line breakers late game.
Other than tweeks, think I have my first list for the weekend -Excited-. Wanted to put n 2/4 of the new units, see how they feel, and balance between range and CC (As I couldn't decide on one or the other in the end) . I'll be playing Ahrimans 1kSons and White scars biker spam (with extra Gravs probably), maybe a Eldar/Space wolves if the player turns up.
Spoiler:
1850
Deathleaper
FHT (x2Devs)
X2 Venomthrope
X1 Zoan
X1 Zoan
X9 Genestealer
X10 Genestealer
X30 Termagants
Tervigon (+ M Cannon)
Not sure if to take DL as Warlord and keep his given trait, or roll out on the table with HT. I'll be trying to save the GS's from dying a fiery doom curtsey of Tzeentch turn one as they want to tie up -some of-his force weapons before they start taking pot shots at the MC's, generally GS are early targets and are a weak point in the army. I expect most of the focus to be on none synaptic threats though, realistically neither army can afford to ignore the pressure units. Half this list will be in cover from the Gargoyles and/or Venoms, usually I am exposed to AP3 spam from 1Ksons so defensively this should actually be better (Note; we don't often have much cover on the table, I put more on, they take more off etc etc.).
Not worried about Crone or DL being out of synapse in particular. The ''Far forward'' units are fine without Synapse.
The downside of stacking the 2 Fex's into a unit are limited targeting and if they are left without synapse, advantage is you can swap out the front to push wounds around. I've gone with separate as I actually expect them to be a primary target for Helldrakes and Grav weapons, so I'm also splitting the possible wound pool.
It's been a while since I ran a cover list anyway, so will be fun.
Push the table-center with the gants, zoans shooting and venonthropes giving cover
Flyrants cover flanks
Sit the mom in the Aeguis and pop gants
Mawlocks eat
Thats all xD
I personally won't be using many of the new models. Aside from from the fact that I want to wait for the supposed supplements, only the exocrine appeals to me. My lists will follow this outline:
-2 flyrants
-at least one unit of two zoanthropes
-at least two units of genestealers with broodlords for pinning
-at least one exocrine
-at least one trygon prime.
I'm very tempted to stick regeneration on everything I can just to see if it's useful.
As far as "new" units go, I will buy an Exocrine and a Bastion... other than that, meh. Maybe I'll buy a Tyrannofex so I don't have to butcher one of my two surviving Tervigons. (I already turned one into a Fex lol) Other than that, I feel like I'll be just fine for 4 years...
Nem wrote: Other than tweeks, think I have my first list for the weekend -Excited-. Wanted to put n 2/4 of the new units, see how they feel, and balance between range and CC (As I couldn't decide on one or the other in the end) . I'll be playing Ahrimans 1kSons and White scars biker spam (with extra Gravs probably), maybe a Eldar/Space wolves if the player turns up.
Spoiler:
1850
Deathleaper
FHT (x2Devs)
X2 Venomthrope
X1 Zoan
X1 Zoan
X9 Genestealer
X10 Genestealer
X30 Termagants
Tervigon (+ M Cannon)
Not sure if to take DL as Warlord and keep his given trait, or roll out on the table with HT. I'll be trying to save the GS's from dying a fiery doom curtsey of Tzeentch turn one as they want to tie up -some of-his force weapons before they start taking pot shots at the MC's, generally GS are early targets and are a weak point in the army. I expect most of the focus to be on none synaptic threats though, realistically neither army can afford to ignore the pressure units. Half this list will be in cover from the Gargoyles and/or Venoms, usually I am exposed to AP3 spam from 1Ksons so defensively this should actually be better (Note; we don't often have much cover on the table, I put more on, they take more off etc etc.).
Not worried about Crone or DL being out of synapse in particular. The ''Far forward'' units are fine without Synapse.
The downside of stacking the 2 Fex's into a unit are limited targeting and if they are left without synapse, advantage is you can swap out the front to push wounds around. I've gone with separate as I actually expect them to be a primary target for Helldrakes and Grav weapons, so I'm also splitting the possible wound pool.
It's been a while since I ran a cover list anyway, so will be fun.
hmm, that looks like an interesting list, lots of different elements that could work very well together against lots of stuff.
Though I'm not a fan of the new codex, I've already got a bit of an army going, so I figure I'll finish it. What do you all think of something like this?
*If I'm not mistaken, this simply gives the Prime re-rolls to wound against models T6 or lower. Since this codex is the first time I've seen the Poisoned rule without a bracketed number, I'm unsure.
A lot of synapse, and the main troops don't care about synapse. I would try to use the Broodlords for their Horror power, since its a great suppression power. I really hope that the supplements breathe new life into this codex so we can all take that sigh of relief.
I had a (heavily proxied) 2000 pt game earlier today versus my buddy's Necrons. Deployment was Hammer & Anvil, Mission was the Relic. I was trying out as many things as I could versus his list (which isn't super competitive by any means). For those interested, our lists were:
Fast Attack:
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Spore Mines x 3 (15)
Heavy Support:
Mawloc (155)
- Adrenal Glands
Biovores x 3 (120)
Carnifexes x 3 (480)
- Adrenal Glands, Thresher Scythes, TL Devourers w/ Brainleech
Necrons:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Imotekh the Stormlord (340)
- Royal Court:
--Harbinger of Eternity (Chronometron)
--Necron Lord (Orb, Warscythe)
Necron Overlord (240)
-Catacomb Command Barge (Tesla), Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Mindshackle Scarabs
Troops:
Necron Warriors x 15 (195)
Necron Warriors x 8 (219)
- Ghost Ark
Necron Warriors x 10 (130)
Fast Attack:
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Wraiths x 5 (205)
- 3 x Whip Coils
Heavy Support:
Monolith (200)
Doomsday Ark (175)
Doomsday Ark (175)
My thoughts on the game:
I rolled fantastic for psychic power generation and Warlord traits, and even managed to seize the initiative. This was offset somewhat by generally poor assault rolls in the actual game, but I think this helped make the game for me.
Mawloc was a huge disappointment. I had him all set to come up under a bunch of Warriors, then he scattered right under the Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
MVP for the game was definitely my Venomthropes. Between that and stacking ablative wounds in front, most of my guys were rocking 2-3+ cover saves for most of the game.
Synapse was never really an issue for me. The only time I had a unit out of synapse range was when I ran some Gargoyles a little too far ahead. They took some wounds and fell back right into synapse range, immediately regrouping.
The squad of three Zoeys was nice for having extra Wounds, but it was really annoying having a triple Warp Blast get shut down by a lucky Deny the Witch roll...twice in a row! I may drop to one or two Zoeys in future.
Overall I think there are some great options available to Nids in the new codex. We'll struggle against anything that ignores cover, but then again, most Xeno armies do. Catalyst granting FNP to two units is fantastic and helps offset the loss of Biomancy. Tervigons are still great at providing target saturation. I don't think the new Dex is going to be as mono-build as everyone fears.
Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
RiTides wrote: House rule or not, most people prefer to play single FOC... and thus a single FOC report will be more useful to most people.
That said, I hope the nids wreck face and that your next one is a single FOC
Other armies get to use allies, at 2k and above I often find Nids struggling for the places in the FOC without doubling up.
Not only that, but they get dataslate units and formations as well.
What do Tyranids get?
Oh well...here's to hoping that they will eventually re-release the Doom, even if it's on a dataslate. He's such a highly sought commodity that I bet GW would make a killing off of him from those money-grabbing-slates.
For those who haven't seen jifel's review of the Tyranid codex, you should check it out. It's much more detailed than mine and with lots of great info. Highly recommended.
Maybe its an Oz verse Yank thing but from my own experience double FOC is a casual format. Heck I can beat a single FOC tau army with almost every other book utilizing double FOC. Dual FOC > allies.
That would depend. Most codices can benefit from it, but not all. Usually, the more elitist armies won't benefit as much from double-FOC's. Actually, IMO Tau won't really benefit from double-FOC's as well. They need their support units. That's what makes them such a great army - the force multipliers in the army. For example, I honestly don't feel that a 6 riptide Tau list is as good as a normal Ovesa-star list and so on. So goes with Daemons and Eldar. I think that they may actually be better going single-FOC than double-FOC. And no, I don't think a 6 wraithknight list is all that great.
I tried a 'refined' list using the Swarmlord and Flyrant last night and Im not pleased with the results. I lost, which is fine (Because I also wasted points on a Haruspex to try him out in a real life game to no avail) But I feel like the points just cant be justified on a slow bullet magnet.
I love the bonus to reserve rolls, losing that on Tyrants hurt me big. I was able to deep strike Trygon Prime/Mawloc/Crone all on turn two.
Mawloc WRECKED FACE. She landed perfectly on 9 bikers in a Dark Angels list and doubled tapped them all off the board. She then failed to kill the Land Raider beside her and died.
Crone came in and hit a landraider with two tentaclids and...I rolled two 1's. She then got gunned down out of the sky (I rolled horribly on all saves last night)
Trygon Prime performed great as always, but thats a given.
I really think Flyrant/Deathleaper are going to be my HQ's for a long while.
Also, I'm for the next few games using Spike Rifles on all Gaunts...too many games have gone where those units never shoot simply because they are holding an object and targets are slightly out of range. I'd rather be wounding on a 5 up than not wounding at all.
Thanks for sharing. Both on this thread and with your battle reports. We need more of those.
BTW, you are really lucky to have your spouse share in the hobby/game with you. That's a keeper.
CleverAntics wrote: Are Tervigons still considered mandatory? I tend to like to run a heavy MC/FMC list, and at 1500 pts have 7x with counting Mama. Been thinking about adding 2x 3-man Warrior squads with Barbed Stranglers, and think they'd be more useful; sure, Mama can spawn babies, but having 2x 3-man Synapse units behind an ADL with Venomthrope shrouding would benefit the Warriors a bit more. Not to mention making the backfield Synapse print bigger by putting them at each side of the ADL as far as they'll go.
Then there's the psychic potential of Mama. Not entirely sure which one to do. Might try both and see which one I like. I just think Mama would have a bigger target on her head and even with a 2+ cover save might find some trouble. I dunno.
No, she's not. But despite the nerfs to her, I think she's still worth running in a Tyranid army. The tervigon isn't a must-take like she was last edition, but she still is a good and very important unit.
Gak! So let me ask you all then, what should I do with this guy?
I guess I can rip his arms off (onooes but I used glue) and replace them with bone swords to make him a Swarmloard or something? Whats the playability of a Hive Tyrant with double cannons hanging out as a back feild synapse anchor with a pair of Tyranofexz and venomthropes?
Or you could put wings on him. Then add some devourers.
Unfortunately, you can't put double-cannons on a TMC anymore. You could go with 1 cannon + devourers however. I also don't recommend you hanging him back. Tyranids win by advancing. You need to have something to threaten your opponent's forces. Having your main guy sit back and shoot just isn't going to cut it. Tyranids will get outshot every time by any shooty armies.
Nem wrote: Other than tweeks, think I have my first list for the weekend -Excited-. Wanted to put n 2/4 of the new units, see how they feel, and balance between range and CC (As I couldn't decide on one or the other in the end) . I'll be playing Ahrimans 1kSons and White scars biker spam (with extra Gravs probably), maybe a Eldar/Space wolves if the player turns up.
Spoiler:
1850
Deathleaper
FHT (x2Devs)
X2 Venomthrope
X1 Zoan
X1 Zoan
X9 Genestealer
X10 Genestealer
X30 Termagants
Tervigon (+ M Cannon)
Not sure if to take DL as Warlord and keep his given trait, or roll out on the table with HT. I'll be trying to save the GS's from dying a fiery doom curtsey of Tzeentch turn one as they want to tie up -some of-his force weapons before they start taking pot shots at the MC's, generally GS are early targets and are a weak point in the army. I expect most of the focus to be on none synaptic threats though, realistically neither army can afford to ignore the pressure units. Half this list will be in cover from the Gargoyles and/or Venoms, usually I am exposed to AP3 spam from 1Ksons so defensively this should actually be better (Note; we don't often have much cover on the table, I put more on, they take more off etc etc.).
Not worried about Crone or DL being out of synapse in particular. The ''Far forward'' units are fine without Synapse.
The downside of stacking the 2 Fex's into a unit are limited targeting and if they are left without synapse, advantage is you can swap out the front to push wounds around. I've gone with separate as I actually expect them to be a primary target for Helldrakes and Grav weapons, so I'm also splitting the possible wound pool.
It's been a while since I ran a cover list anyway, so will be fun.
I'd make the DL your Warlord. The flyrant is a high-priority target and more often than not, he's going to get shot down. If he's your WL as well, that's extra incentive for your opponents to shoot him down.
The list is solid and you seem to have a good game plan. Good luck.
Push the table-center with the gants, zoans shooting and venonthropes giving cover
Flyrants cover flanks
Sit the mom in the Aeguis and pop gants
Mawlocks eat
Thats all xD
You really don't need that many zoanthropes. I think units of 3 zoans are not efficient. I'd go no more than 2 zoans per unit and use the rest of the points elsewhere in your army. I also don't recommend a unit of 30 termagants if you're not taking a 2nd tervigon. IMO, unless you are going for a horde build, it is better to split off the termagants into 2 or 3 units of 10 to be able to spread out your troops. This will also give you more units to try to ground enemy FMC's. If you drop 2 zoans (use 2x2 zoans) and 10 gants (use 2x10 gants), now you've got enough points to run a harpy or something like that. Then your forward threats would be 2 flyrants, 1 harpy and 3 mawlocs. You now have a more dangerous army.
McNinja wrote: I personally won't be using many of the new models. Aside from from the fact that I want to wait for the supposed supplements, only the exocrine appeals to me. My lists will follow this outline:
-2 flyrants
-at least one unit of two zoanthropes
-at least two units of genestealers with broodlords for pinning
-at least one exocrine
-at least one trygon prime.
I'm very tempted to stick regeneration on everything I can just to see if it's useful.
That looks like a decent template for an army. I'm not high on the trygon prime, but if you want to give it a try, then go for it.
McNinja wrote: Though I'm not a fan of the new codex, I've already got a bit of an army going, so I figure I'll finish it. What do you all think of something like this?
*If I'm not mistaken, this simply gives the Prime re-rolls to wound against models T6 or lower. Since this codex is the first time I've seen the Poisoned rule without a bracketed number, I'm unsure.
A lot of synapse, and the main troops don't care about synapse. I would try to use the Broodlords for their Horror power, since its a great suppression power. I really hope that the supplements breathe new life into this codex so we can all take that sigh of relief.
I am hesitant to spam broodlords. With just 10 gants and 15 stealers, your troops are somewhat squishy. They won't last very long against Tau or Eldar.
If you playtest them, I'd like to hear how they did.
PrinceOfMadness wrote: I had a (heavily proxied) 2000 pt game earlier today versus my buddy's Necrons. Deployment was Hammer & Anvil, Mission was the Relic. I was trying out as many things as I could versus his list (which isn't super competitive by any means). For those interested, our lists were:
Fast Attack:
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Spore Mines x 3 (15)
Heavy Support:
Mawloc (155)
- Adrenal Glands
Biovores x 3 (120)
Carnifexes x 3 (480)
- Adrenal Glands, Thresher Scythes, TL Devourers w/ Brainleech
Necrons:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Imotekh the Stormlord (340)
- Royal Court:
--Harbinger of Eternity (Chronometron)
--Necron Lord (Orb, Warscythe)
Necron Overlord (240)
-Catacomb Command Barge (Tesla), Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Mindshackle Scarabs
Troops:
Necron Warriors x 15 (195)
Necron Warriors x 8 (219)
- Ghost Ark
Necron Warriors x 10 (130)
Fast Attack:
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Wraiths x 5 (205)
- 3 x Whip Coils
Heavy Support:
Monolith (200)
Doomsday Ark (175)
Doomsday Ark (175)
My thoughts on the game:
I rolled fantastic for psychic power generation and Warlord traits, and even managed to seize the initiative. This was offset somewhat by generally poor assault rolls in the actual game, but I think this helped make the game for me.
Mawloc was a huge disappointment. I had him all set to come up under a bunch of Warriors, then he scattered right under the Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
MVP for the game was definitely my Venomthropes. Between that and stacking ablative wounds in front, most of my guys were rocking 2-3+ cover saves for most of the game.
Synapse was never really an issue for me. The only time I had a unit out of synapse range was when I ran some Gargoyles a little too far ahead. They took some wounds and fell back right into synapse range, immediately regrouping.
The squad of three Zoeys was nice for having extra Wounds, but it was really annoying having a triple Warp Blast get shut down by a lucky Deny the Witch roll...twice in a row! I may drop to one or two Zoeys in future.
Overall I think there are some great options available to Nids in the new codex. We'll struggle against anything that ignores cover, but then again, most Xeno armies do. Catalyst granting FNP to two units is fantastic and helps offset the loss of Biomancy. Tervigons are still great at providing target saturation. I don't think the new Dex is going to be as mono-build as everyone fears.
Thanks for sharing! Greatly appreciated.
I don't recommend the 3 zoan configuration. It's not very efficient IMO. I wouldn't go with more than 2 zoans in 1 unit.
So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
I think he's somewhat over-costed, especially considering how short the range is. Then again, I'm somewhat biased towards the TL-devourers. To me, it's either 2x TL-D's or just naked and maybe with Adrenal Glands. Then again, I tend to run very few upgrades on my units.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
The Biovores were decent. I didn't get full mileage out of them because my opponent got his foot squads (Scarabs and Wraiths) into melee rather quickly. Though I did have one turn where they scored a whopping 25 wounds when my opponent pulled his large Warrior brick from Reserve with the Monolith!
I feel like the Dakkafexes are good, but due to me not offering enough sacrifices to the dice gods this week, they had some truly atrocious rolls. They did me the favor of tying up my opponent's Wraiths for pretty much the entire game though (I just COULD NOT put out more than 1 ID Wound every turn with them. It was maddening!) They did, however, manage to kill off a couple of the Wraiths with their shooting.
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
About the Doom of Malantai, Jy, I heard today from someone at my store, that they had to drop them because chapter house own the rights to the model! So there will be no Doom, Parasite or Spore, Ever!
Someone who is better versed in the whole GW vs Chapter house issue maybe able to confirm, or quash that though?
Perhaps it's best let by gones, be by gones. And concentrate on what we have here to work with.
My list for Sunday, 3k. Do t shoot me people I have double FOC
Flyrant, LW and Bonesword, TL devourers, regen, hive commander. (LW/BS is a wysiwyg)
Eldercaveman wrote: About the Doom of Malantai, Jy, I heard today from someone at my store, that they had to drop them because chapter house own the rights to the model! So there will be no Doom, Parasite or Spore, Ever!
Don't understand why Doom would be an issue- just release a new Zoan kit with a different head.
However I could see why Spores would be an issue. This is what people get for being so happy about CH outcome in the lawsuit. I had not considered that angle before, I knew GW would not want to continue feeding money into a different company but thought they should just make there own models rather than scrapping the codex entries- however that doesn't actually seem like an option due to mannor in which Chapter house sold the alternative models.
Now many 3rd party companies legally make alternative models for the GW range whether it is "futuristic imperial soldiers" or ""giant spacebug seed pods" it did not hurt the hobby as a whole. Chapterhouse went ahead and made models from the codex entries in the Space Wolf and Tyranid ranges very specifically being their thunderwolf calvary. By doing this they put GW at this legal trouble since if GW released, as an example, their own Thunderwolf Calvary model they could be sued by Chapterhouse for attacking Chapterhouses IP! By doing so a few results have come out of this problem, some good and bad. This quite literally screwed tyranid players looking for newer models. It also left the door open for any model to be made by any company for a codex entry that does not have a GW published model and then sue Games Workshop
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Mawloc was a huge disappointment. I had him all set to come up under a bunch of Warriors, then he scattered right under the Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
You have to admit, that's pretty funny.
Mawloc is digging at full speed expecting to get a meal and ruins into a metal wall instead...it's "Tremors" all over again.
PrinceOfMadness wrote: Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
Extra attacks from multiple weapons have never been in the profile of any model on the game, why would they start doing it with Tyranids?
Aldp , doing so would mess with calculating number of attacks when Smashing.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
The Biovores were decent. I didn't get full mileage out of them because my opponent got his foot squads (Scarabs and Wraiths) into melee rather quickly. Though I did have one turn where they scored a whopping 25 wounds when my opponent pulled his large Warrior brick from Reserve with the Monolith!
I feel like the Dakkafexes are good, but due to me not offering enough sacrifices to the dice gods this week, they had some truly atrocious rolls. They did me the favor of tying up my opponent's Wraiths for pretty much the entire game though (I just COULD NOT put out more than 1 ID Wound every turn with them. It was maddening!) They did, however, manage to kill off a couple of the Wraiths with their shooting.
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
Attacks included in the unit's profile doesn't happen anymore. That was a 3rd-4th ed thing, and died out after they realized how confusing it was.
This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
PrinceOfMadness wrote: I had a (heavily proxied) 2000 pt game earlier today versus my buddy's Necrons. Deployment was Hammer & Anvil, Mission was the Relic. I was trying out as many things as I could versus his list (which isn't super competitive by any means). For those interested, our lists were:
Fast Attack:
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Gargoyles x 10 (60)
Spore Mines x 3 (15)
Heavy Support:
Mawloc (155)
- Adrenal Glands
Biovores x 3 (120)
Carnifexes x 3 (480)
- Adrenal Glands, Thresher Scythes, TL Devourers w/ Brainleech
Necrons:
Spoiler:
HQ:
Imotekh the Stormlord (340)
- Royal Court:
--Harbinger of Eternity (Chronometron)
--Necron Lord (Orb, Warscythe)
Necron Overlord (240)
-Catacomb Command Barge (Tesla), Warscythe, Phase Shifter, Mindshackle Scarabs
Troops:
Necron Warriors x 15 (195)
Necron Warriors x 8 (219)
- Ghost Ark
Necron Warriors x 10 (130)
Fast Attack:
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Scarabs x 4 (60)
Wraiths x 5 (205)
- 3 x Whip Coils
Heavy Support:
Monolith (200)
Doomsday Ark (175)
Doomsday Ark (175)
My thoughts on the game:
I rolled fantastic for psychic power generation and Warlord traits, and even managed to seize the initiative. This was offset somewhat by generally poor assault rolls in the actual game, but I think this helped make the game for me.
Mawloc was a huge disappointment. I had him all set to come up under a bunch of Warriors, then he scattered right under the Monolith and killed himself with Deep Strike mishap!
MVP for the game was definitely my Venomthropes. Between that and stacking ablative wounds in front, most of my guys were rocking 2-3+ cover saves for most of the game.
Synapse was never really an issue for me. The only time I had a unit out of synapse range was when I ran some Gargoyles a little too far ahead. They took some wounds and fell back right into synapse range, immediately regrouping.
The squad of three Zoeys was nice for having extra Wounds, but it was really annoying having a triple Warp Blast get shut down by a lucky Deny the Witch roll...twice in a row! I may drop to one or two Zoeys in future.
Overall I think there are some great options available to Nids in the new codex. We'll struggle against anything that ignores cover, but then again, most Xeno armies do. Catalyst granting FNP to two units is fantastic and helps offset the loss of Biomancy. Tervigons are still great at providing target saturation. I don't think the new Dex is going to be as mono-build as everyone fears.
How did the unit of 3 Carnifexes perform for you? Was it overkill or worth taking?
Edit: Ah, page rollover, you already answered this!
I am interested in knowing if Roxor08's trick is viable. If not, how will you get your Fexes cover to then hopefully buff with a venomthrope? Gargoyles screening???
OK so the general consensus is that scything talons are bad now right?
Basically I want to math hammer these guys out and see if the extra attack is worth double the points and the loss of rerolling 1's.
5 MEQ with WS 4 = 70
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 80 (old price old price with talons)
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 90 (new price with talons)
Stealer on MEQ hits on 3?
MEQ on Stealer hits on 4?
Old Codex:
On charge the Stealer has 3 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
New Codex:
On charge with scything talons giving extra attack the Stealer has 4 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
Stealer hits what on average 13.3 out of 20 attacks with the new codex, whereas before they hit with maybe 10 out of 15?
Old codex they may have rolled what 2.5 1's out of 15 attacks? With reroll's on those 1's they would have rolled what 1.6 of them as hits?
So does this translate into?
13.3 hits out of 20 in new codex
11.6 hits out of 15 in old codex
So for 20 points versus the old 10 points we are getting roughly 1.7 more hits with 5 stealers against 5 MEQ? How do you all feel about that? Is 10 points worth maybe 2 more hits with 5 nids? Sure it isn't worth it in some cases where other nids have loss a profile attack and then got it back via scything talons, but with the stealers they are at least getting some benefit from the point increase and loss of rerolls.
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
Yeah, for 18 points per model, for a model that still don't have access to assault grenades. So when you're assaulting any competent opponent while you may be able to boast about your 4 rending attacks per model (on the charge) you're also going to loose an almost guaranteed 1 model per hit.
This is compounded by players kitting units with flamers.
My advice is don't spend the extra 4 ppm and keeps your genestealer units small if you're adamant about bringing them.
EDIT: I take that back, if you successfully cast the horror, and it isn't denied, and the unit is pinned, the charging unit isn't penalized for charging through terrain against a unit that is pinned... So average chance of your unit being unaffected by terrain is = 10/12 * 5/6 * 5/12.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
Yeah, for 18 points per model, for a model that still don't have access to assault grenades. So when you're assaulting any competent opponent while you may be able to boast about your 4 rending attacks per model (on the charge) you're also going to loose an almost guaranteed 1 model per hit.
This is compounded by players kitting units with flamers.
My advice is don't spend the extra 4 ppm and keeps your genestealer units small if you're adamant about bringing them.
My two cents? No one I play uses flamers save for IG...because they have enough squads and points to fit a unit for that purpose. And other than that, stealers never lose combat? What's the heartiest thing you're going to commonly hit? Marines...which suck in combat, save Templar.
That being said, you'll probably still win without scytals, and by forgoing them on 7 stealers I would be able to get two more stealers. Kitting a unit with them is not too smart.
Now let's say you have a unit of 9+Broody...kitting broody and 3 other stealers in the back of the unit with scytals while the front guys get toasted for 14 points a piece, a much better tactic.
Edit: I'm currently doing the same thing with my dakkafexes, putting a stock one up in front of dakkafexes, and letting him tank some wounds without spending worthless upgrades on him because he's going to die before he reaches his threat range anyways.
Why 2000 pt DOC? Probably the worst way to prove a point is by using an optional rule change that directly boosts the nids biggest weak spots.
I'd like to see a 1750 TAC list deal with a decent opponent. And no, it doesn't even need to be Taudar, feth Taudar I think most people are bored with them anyway
Still looking forward to the match, just not going to garner the information I think was more being sought after.
Ugh!
People still think Double FOC is optional and not playing it at 2k isn't a house ruling used by tournaments.
That would be because it is optional. You are not required to use it at 2k and above, it simply becomes and available option. And one that alot of places and groups just don't use. In fact only the 1 HQ and 2 Troops are required, everything else is optional.
Removing that option is a house rule and making it required is also a house rule.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
But is this extra attack already figured into the Carnifex's profile? I know the Trygon lost an attack on his profile and now gets it back via two sets of melee weapons, so I am betting it is the same for the Carnifex. His profile doesn't show the extra attack even though he has two sets of scything talons equipped stock. I am betting this is like this to help with the inevitable confusion when someone replaces ccw with a ranged weapon. His base attacks will not go down if scything talons are replaced with say a venom cannon.
Why 2000 pt DOC? Probably the worst way to prove a point is by using an optional rule change that directly boosts the nids biggest weak spots.
I'd like to see a 1750 TAC list deal with a decent opponent. And no, it doesn't even need to be Taudar, feth Taudar I think most people are bored with them anyway
Still looking forward to the match, just not going to garner the information I think was more being sought after.
Ugh!
People still think Double FOC is optional and not playing it at 2k isn't a house ruling used by tournaments.
That would be because it is optional. You are not required to use it at 2k and above, it simply becomes and available option. And one that alot of places and groups just don't use. In fact only the 1 HQ and 2 Troops are required, everything else is optional.
Removing that option is a house rule and making it required is also a house rule.
No it's in the rules.
Same way allies and fortifications are.
If you choose to utilise it or not is optional, same way if you choose to use your third Heavy Support at 1500 points for E.G.
What is a house rule, is when some says, let's play 2k but only 1 FOC.
But this is all very off topic. And I like jy2 so let's not drag his thread down.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
But is this extra attack already figured into the Carnifex's profile? I know the Trygon lost an attack on his profile and now gets it back via two sets of melee weapons, so I am betting it is the same for the Carnifex. His profile doesn't show the extra attack even though he has two sets of scything talons equipped stock. I am betting this is like this to help with the inevitable confusion when someone replaces ccw with a ranged weapon. His base attacks will not go down if scything talons are replaced with say a venom cannon.
It's no longer included in the profile. This was done to avoid confusion and streamline the rules. I always explain it like this (1 pair of scything talons = 1 AP6 Chainsword)
It also tones down godfex builds by making choose to some degree if you want shooty fexes or assault fexes.
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Eldercaveman wrote: But this is all very off topic. And I like jy2 so let's not drag his thread down.
Normally I don't share my tactics with the internet, 10% for fear of them being used against me and 90% because of the presence of trolls, but the general demeanor of this thread has been quite pleasant overall.
I don’t think it’s a good idea to take upgrades on your stealers unless you are tailoring against a specific unit.
Apart from the cost, stealers will beat almost anything in combat as they are. In fact you want them to be less killy in the first place because if you murder your opponents too badly in the first assault then they are more likely to run and you will have to eat another turn of rapid fire shooting. Very few units will still be around after a protracted fist fight with a genestealer so what’s the rush??
In this regard, even apart from the cost, definitely adrenal glands are a terrible idea (unless against lots of vehicles) toxin sacs and scything talons are also probably a bad idea.
ozziee wrote: In this regard, even apart from the cost, definitely adrenal glands are a terrible idea (unless against lots of vehicles) toxin sacs and scything talons are also probably a bad idea.
I have to disagree with Toxin Sacs, that's largely a question that depends on your personal meta. and their use of T5+ models.
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
Focus fire completely ruins this strategy, just focus on the guy out front until he is dead then switch units as the other unit now has no screen.
As to the Doom and wishful thinking, unless he comes with his one form of deep strike he will still suck even if he doesn't change at all which I doubt. Has anyone ever had consistent success using the doom footslogging?
As to the comments by Eldercaveman about chapterhouse, your facts are off and I suggest reading through the lawsuit thread rather then muddy the waters here. It doesn't work the way your suggesting. I do think they wanted to cut back on rules without models, but I am thinking it has more to do with production costs and model development as to whether it was dropped. I read that GW is reaching it's ceiling on making these kits due to cost, that's why you see so many dual kits these days, and less per release.
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
Focus fire completely ruins this strategy, just focus on the guy out front until he is dead then switch units as the other unit now has no screen.
As to the Doom and wishful thinking, unless he comes with his one form of deep strike he will still suck even if he doesn't change at all which I doubt. Has anyone ever had consistent success using the doom footslogging?
As to the comments by Eldercaveman about chapterhouse, your facts are off and I suggest reading through the lawsuit thread rather then muddy the waters here. It doesn't work the way your suggesting. I do think they wanted to cut back on rules without models, but I am thinking it has more to do with production costs and model development as to whether it was dropped. I read that GW is reaching it's ceiling on making these kits due to cost, that's why you see so many dual kits these days, and less per release.
Like I said, I didn't know how accurate it was. The guy who told me is usually pretty well read up on these things. And like you have, I asked for some one more versed in the issue than me to clarify, so thank you. I'm not reading through that monstrosity of a thread though. Legal proceedings are mind numbingly boring.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
But is this extra attack already figured into the Carnifex's profile? I know the Trygon lost an attack on his profile and now gets it back via two sets of melee weapons, so I am betting it is the same for the Carnifex. His profile doesn't show the extra attack even though he has two sets of scything talons equipped stock. I am betting this is like this to help with the inevitable confusion when someone replaces ccw with a ranged weapon. His base attacks will not go down if scything talons are replaced with say a venom cannon.
It isn't for any other model in the codex, so why would it be for the Carnifex?
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
Focus fire completely ruins this strategy, just focus on the guy out front until he is dead then switch units as the other unit now has no screen.
As to the Doom and wishful thinking, unless he comes with his one form of deep strike he will still suck even if he doesn't change at all which I doubt. Has anyone ever had consistent success using the doom footslogging?
As to the comments by Eldercaveman about chapterhouse, your facts are off and I suggest reading through the lawsuit thread rather then muddy the waters here. It doesn't work the way your suggesting. I do think they wanted to cut back on rules without models, but I am thinking it has more to do with production costs and model development as to whether it was dropped. I read that GW is reaching it's ceiling on making these kits due to cost, that's why you see so many dual kits these days, and less per release.
Like I said, I didn't know how accurate it was. The guy who told me is usually pretty well read up on these things. And like you have, I asked for some one more versed in the issue than me to clarify, so thank you. I'm not reading through that monstrosity of a thread though. Legal proceedings are mind numbingly boring.
No problem, I like legal stuff, but I admit to being a bit touched in the head
Heres a simple way to look at IP however. Lets look at tranformers as an example.
Tranforming robot? Not IP protected
Transforming robot names optimus prime? IP protected.
Since the Doom of Malantai is firmly anchored in GW's fluff in the 40k universe, its ridiculous to suggest they don't have the IP for him. Also, they already have models for Zoies so like I said, my best guess is a production issue if they choose to not re-release him (leaving room for future slates).
I still think that unless he gained DS somehow he would be terrible anyway.
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
I think he's somewhat over-costed, especially considering how short the range is. Then again, I'm somewhat biased towards the TL-devourers. To me, it's either 2x TL-D's or just naked and maybe with Adrenal Glands. Then again, I tend to run very few upgrades on my units.
Could someone tell me what a "Screamer Killer" Fex would be armed with, at least with this new book?
Sorry, did a bit of looking before asking and couldn't find the answer...
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
I think he's somewhat over-costed, especially considering how short the range is. Then again, I'm somewhat biased towards the TL-devourers. To me, it's either 2x TL-D's or just naked and maybe with Adrenal Glands. Then again, I tend to run very few upgrades on my units.
Could someone tell me what a "Screamer Killer" Fex would be armed with, at least with this new book?
Sorry, did a bit of looking before asking and couldn't find the answer...
All scytals and bio plasma. Its a throwback reference to 2nd ed (possibly RT but I started in 2nd) this is how they came stalk and you couldn't really change their weapons back then. Screamer killer was slang guardsmen used to call them.
ozziee wrote: In this regard, even apart from the cost, definitely adrenal glands are a terrible idea (unless against lots of vehicles) toxin sacs and scything talons are also probably a bad idea.
I have to disagree with Toxin Sacs, that's largely a question that depends on your personal meta. and their use of T5+ models.
I dunno man, I think even quite a small squad of stealers is going to overwhelm almost anything in CC regardless of their toughness.
Of course I agree that depending on the meta different things might be worth it but in general the last thing you want to do to your opponents is kill them in Close combat.
In combat the genes generally get to use their WS, Int and armour to protect them, also then enemy is hitting you with their strength instead of the strength of their gun which is normally better. I’ve always found combat the safest place to be and I like to stay there as long as possible. The high attacks and rends will be telling on most opponents after a few rounds.
Lord Scythican wrote: OK so the general consensus is that scything talons are bad now right?
Basically I want to math hammer these guys out and see if the extra attack is worth double the points and the loss of rerolling 1's.
5 MEQ with WS 4 = 70
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 80 (old price old price with talons)
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 90 (new price with talons)
Stealer on MEQ hits on 3?
MEQ on Stealer hits on 4?
Old Codex:
On charge the Stealer has 3 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
New Codex:
On charge with scything talons giving extra attack the Stealer has 4 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
Stealer hits what on average 13.3 out of 20 attacks with the new codex, whereas before they hit with maybe 10 out of 15?
Old codex they may have rolled what 2.5 1's out of 15 attacks? With reroll's on those 1's they would have rolled what 1.6 of them as hits?
So does this translate into?
13.3 hits out of 20 in new codex
11.6 hits out of 15 in old codex
So for 20 points versus the old 10 points we are getting roughly 1.7 more hits with 5 stealers against 5 MEQ? How do you all feel about that? Is 10 points worth maybe 2 more hits with 5 nids? Sure it isn't worth it in some cases where other nids have loss a profile attack and then got it back via scything talons, but with the stealers they are at least getting some benefit from the point increase and loss of rerolls.
On paper in a pure math standpoint it would seem like a good idea. That MEQ also gets to shoot and overwatch, ( their bolters bypass a GS armor) with that alone the GS is pretty steep cost wise at its base.. If I ran them, I would do so naked.
PrinceRaven wrote: Extra attacks from multiple weapons have never been in the profile of any model on the game, why would they start doing it with Tyranids?
Aldp , doing so would mess with calculating number of attacks when Smashing.
McNinja wrote: It isn't for any other model in the codex, so why would it be for the Carnifex?
Can I get a source (or at least a few good examples) for this? I've gone over the main rulebook a couple of times and I must be blind because I'm not seeing it. I haven't shown him that designer's note yet but I want to have as strong of a case as I can (he, and I, can both be rules lawyers )
His argument is that it applies to all models that come stock with more than one melee weapon.
EDIT: AHA, I found it on page 24 of the main book!
Sorry for a separate post but as question- where those upgrades would be useful would be on the broodlord since he might be fighting challenges and is also the most useful to crack vehicles.
The upgrades are mentioned as points per genestealer and then under the broodlord is mentioned it says he can take biomorphs wherein scything talons is not mentioned.
I guess then it is impossible to give them to him? Or is it if you upgrade the whole unit you can also give him a set at the same cost?
(Incidentally the ‘streamlining’ of the biomorph upgrades really hurts the broodlord since he is much less expensive/ powerful than a monstrous creature but must still pay the same for upgrades)
ozziee wrote: In this regard, even apart from the cost, definitely adrenal glands are a terrible idea (unless against lots of vehicles) toxin sacs and scything talons are also probably a bad idea.
I have to disagree with Toxin Sacs, that's largely a question that depends on your personal meta. and their use of T5+ models.
This, and this goes for almost any models with rending claws. If you are not taking toxin sacs on them you are leaving a big chunk of killing power on the floor. Not only do TS give you much better ability to handle high T targets, but the rerolls to wounds they give you also can supply more rends.
I could see stealers used as a back field objective holders. Leave them in reserve, then when the rest of your army is pouncing on the enemy, they can just walk on and hop on an objective or 2. That way they aren't so fragile because they won't be on the board for at least 1 turn.
jy2 wrote: So how'd the biovores and dakkafexes do?
Speaking of the Dakkafexes - I had an argument with my opponent over how extra attacks are generated from Tyranid close combat weapons - specifically the Carnifex. The stock Carnifex is listed with 3 attacks and two pairs of scything talons - does he get the extra attack from having two pairs of close combat weapons (so 4) or is that factored into the 'Fex's profile?
read the codex, page 63 top left corner under Melee Weapons... Nids now gain +1 attack for 2 sets of melee weapons! So genesteelers with scything claws added to their rending claws will gain +1
But is this extra attack already figured into the Carnifex's profile? I know the Trygon lost an attack on his profile and now gets it back via two sets of melee weapons, so I am betting it is the same for the Carnifex. His profile doesn't show the extra attack even though he has two sets of scything talons equipped stock. I am betting this is like this to help with the inevitable confusion when someone replaces ccw with a ranged weapon. His base attacks will not go down if scything talons are replaced with say a venom cannon.
It isn't for any other model in the codex, so why would it be for the Carnifex?
Yeah I thought my post pretty much came to the same conclusion. I was trying to say that Princeof Madness' original question wasn't completely answered and I sort of elaborated on it.
sLeEpYrOcK wrote: Just a question, are screamer killer fexes back in again? i mean, a plasma cannon that doesn't overheat and still retains the fex's extra attack using scything talons, and possibly adrenal glands? the upgrade is 20 points per fex, but i think it could cause some serious damage, your guys thoughts?
I think he's somewhat over-costed, especially considering how short the range is. Then again, I'm somewhat biased towards the TL-devourers. To me, it's either 2x TL-D's or just naked and maybe with Adrenal Glands. Then again, I tend to run very few upgrades on my units.
Could someone tell me what a "Screamer Killer" Fex would be armed with, at least with this new book?
Sorry, did a bit of looking before asking and couldn't find the answer...
All scytals and bio plasma. Its a throwback reference to 2nd ed (possibly RT but I started in 2nd) this is how they came stalk and you couldn't really change their weapons back then. Screamer killer was slang guardsmen used to call them.
Thanks, Red Corsair! Unfortunately left my book at home, so I'll check out this config when I get back.
But is anyone else considering this configuration? Would a unit of 2 DakkaFexes and 1 Screamer Killer make any sense?
Lord Scythican wrote: OK so the general consensus is that scything talons are bad now right?
Basically I want to math hammer these guys out and see if the extra attack is worth double the points and the loss of rerolling 1's.
5 MEQ with WS 4 = 70
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 80 (old price old price with talons)
5 Stealer with WS 6 = 90 (new price with talons)
Stealer on MEQ hits on 3?
MEQ on Stealer hits on 4?
Old Codex:
On charge the Stealer has 3 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
New Codex:
On charge with scything talons giving extra attack the Stealer has 4 attacks.
On charge the MEQ has 2 attacks.
Stealer hits what on average 13.3 out of 20 attacks with the new codex, whereas before they hit with maybe 10 out of 15?
Old codex they may have rolled what 2.5 1's out of 15 attacks? With reroll's on those 1's they would have rolled what 1.6 of them as hits?
So does this translate into?
13.3 hits out of 20 in new codex
11.6 hits out of 15 in old codex
So for 20 points versus the old 10 points we are getting roughly 1.7 more hits with 5 stealers against 5 MEQ? How do you all feel about that? Is 10 points worth maybe 2 more hits with 5 nids? Sure it isn't worth it in some cases where other nids have loss a profile attack and then got it back via scything talons, but with the stealers they are at least getting some benefit from the point increase and loss of rerolls.
On paper in a pure math standpoint it would seem like a good idea. That MEQ also gets to shoot and overwatch, ( their bolters bypass a GS armor) with that alone the GS is pretty steep cost wise at its base.. If I ran them, I would do so naked.
Well of course they get that. MEQ get it regardless of the scything talons or not. What I am asking is an extra 1.7 attacks (that hit) with a squad of 5 genestealers worth and extra 10 points? This is even factoring in the old rulings. It is 1.7 more hits with 5 stealers now (10 more points on upgrade than before) that the old stealers with the old rerolls of 1's .
But is anyone else considering this configuration? Would a unit of 2 DakkaFexes and 1 Screamer Killer make any sense?
Well, if you plan on using the cheap one as a meatshield it works.
I'm personally planning on 2 Screamer-Killers, 1 Crusher Fex broods - that was if they come across something annoying like a landraider we have one who doesn't sacrifice his attacks for Smash and can blat the fething thing out of the way so its squishy contents can stand in front of its buddies.
Mind you I'm also planning on mixing Heavy Venom cannons into broods as well. Simply because S9 template? POP! Rhinos explode!
There's a slight tweak to scything talons on stealers in that you don't have to upgrade the entire unit. Since casualties are inevitable it makes sense to go maybe half upgraded and half not (especially on larger 'shock' style units).
And if you happen to pull off an assault without having taken casualties you can keep the upgraded ones out of the combat and then pile them in for the following phase (eg your opponents assault phase)
Someone mentioned you shouldn't upgrade stealers since they will usually beat what they charge. That just isn't the case really when you usually loose half the unit at least before getting there and then loose more before going at I1 due to terrain. To me having those few extra attacks are going to be key to making stealers remotely viable as an assault unit.
But is anyone else considering this configuration? Would a unit of 2 DakkaFexes and 1 Screamer Killer make any sense?
Well, if you plan on using the cheap one as a meatshield it works.
I'm personally planning on 2 Screamer-Killers, 1 Crusher Fex broods - that was if they come across something annoying like a landraider we have one who doesn't sacrifice his attacks for Smash and can blat the fething thing out of the way so its squishy contents can stand in front of its buddies.
Mind you I'm also planning on mixing Heavy Venom cannons into broods as well. Simply because S9 template? POP! Rhinos explode!
Cool, thanks
One more question- I saw a few people mention that GunFexes are not legal (such as giving a Carnifex more than one heavy venom cannon) but for some reason, I can't see why they would be allowed to take 2 sets of TL devourers, but not 2 of some other gun. Can someone point me to where this is stated in the book?
Good to see that it won't be only Dakkafexes people plan to field, even if they make up the majority of Fexes
Edit: Here's an earlier point in this thread where it was mentioned, but I didn't see where it says they can't take 2 of the other weapons.
bodazoka wrote: Question?
What unit's in the codex would I need to include for maximum long range fire power (24 + inches) and would including these units allow me to at LEAST match it with a slight under tear optimized Tau army.
Carnifex with dual stranglethorn canon. Harpies have a twin linked stranglethorn cannon, and are pretty cheap.
I really like the idea of Stranglethorn Carnifexes... even more than dakkafexes.
I also read about the old idea of a 'distraction carnifex'. Maybe a distraction tyrannofex could work, with the new and improved regeneration.
Iirc aren't you only allowed one Stranglethorn Cannon though? Can't do the gunboat Fex. They killed that after 4th.
winterman wrote: There's a slight tweak to scything talons on stealers in that you don't have to upgrade the entire unit. Since casualties are inevitable it makes sense to go maybe half upgraded and half not (especially on larger 'shock' style units).
And if you happen to pull off an assault without having taken casualties you can keep the upgraded ones out of the combat and then pile them in for the following phase (eg your opponents assault phase)
Someone mentioned you shouldn't upgrade stealers since they will usually beat what they charge. That just isn't the case really when you usually loose half the unit at least before getting there and then loose more before going at I1 due to terrain. To me having those few extra attacks are going to be key to making stealers remotely viable as an assault unit.
Good idea, I've been locked in to one weapon type a unit so long I forgot to consider this at all.
But is anyone else considering this configuration? Would a unit of 2 DakkaFexes and 1 Screamer Killer make any sense?
Well, if you plan on using the cheap one as a meatshield it works.
I'm personally planning on 2 Screamer-Killers, 1 Crusher Fex broods - that was if they come across something annoying like a landraider we have one who doesn't sacrifice his attacks for Smash and can blat the fething thing out of the way so its squishy contents can stand in front of its buddies.
Mind you I'm also planning on mixing Heavy Venom cannons into broods as well. Simply because S9 template? POP! Rhinos explode!
Cool, thanks
One more question- I saw a few people mention that GunFexes are not legal (such as giving a Carnifex more than one heavy venom cannon) but for some reason, I can't see why they would be allowed to take 2 sets of TL devourers, but not 2 of some other gun. Can someone point me to where this is stated in the book?
Good to see that it won't be only Dakkafexes people plan to field, even if they make up the majority of Fexes
Edit: Here's an earlier point in this thread where it was mentioned, but I didn't see where it says they can't take 2 of the other weapons.
bodazoka wrote: Question?
What unit's in the codex would I need to include for maximum long range fire power (24 + inches) and would including these units allow me to at LEAST match it with a slight under tear optimized Tau army.
Carnifex with dual stranglethorn canon. Harpies have a twin linked stranglethorn cannon, and are pretty cheap.
I really like the idea of Stranglethorn Carnifexes... even more than dakkafexes.
I also read about the old idea of a 'distraction carnifex'. Maybe a distraction tyrannofex could work, with the new and improved regeneration.
Iirc aren't you only allowed one Stranglethorn Cannon though? Can't do the gunboat Fex. They killed that after 4th.
Yep. I commented on them killing the gunboat 'fex. Doesn't mean you can't take the cannon and something else though.
My current Carnifex collection stands as follows...
3 x 2 scytals
3 x twin devourers
2 x scytals and crushing claws
2 x scytals and barbed stranglers
2 x crushing claws and venom cannons
2 x 2 scytals (3rd ed rhino-bugs)
1 x scytal and crushing claws (Old One Eye).
I can mix and match some. Seriously debating just having 2 blobs of twin scytals and one crusher with an Exocrine being my last Heavy for most games.
Realising 'nids can deal with Flyers through sheer weight of fire.
stormoffires wrote: Ritides look on page 93 in the notes section... if there is a little 1 next to somthing in the wargear list, they can only have 1 of that weapon.
Fantastic nids thread in 40k tactics! Would you mind sharing your thoughts on 2 sample lists I've sketched out for the tyranid players for our AdeptiCon team tournament lists? These are 1000 point lists. The rules are, each player gets 1 HQ, 3 Troop, 1 Fast, 1 Elite, 1 Heavy. One team member can have an extra fast, another an extra elite, another an extra heavy, and the last a fortification. Below, one list uses the fortification, the other the extra heavy, but it doesn't have to be that way.
Base to possibly include in both lists:
Tyrant, wings, 2 x TL brainleech devourers - 230
Tervigon - 195
30 Gaunts - 120
Total - 545
For List 1, I might consider adding:
Venomthrope - 45
Bastion - 75
2 x Carnifex with 2x TL brainleech devourerers - 300
Puts me at 965, so room to upgrade something (devourers for gaunts, a gun for the Bastion if allowed, etc). The fexes are expensive, as is the Bastion trick... I was wishing I could fit in some Gargoyles to screen for the fexes. But I can only do so if I don't get the Bastion (in which case I could fit in 18 gargoyles) and then the Venomthrope won't live.
I was thinking the other nid list might do well with using the second heavy support slot.
So for List 2, I might consider adding:
Mawloc - 140
Mawloc - 140
20 Gargoyles - 120
1 Zoanthrope or Hive Guard - 50 or 55
Puts it at 995 or 1000 (with the Flyrant, Tervigon, and 30 Gaunts from above).
I'm kind of stumped as to whether these would be good or not... any tips appreciated!
Cheers,
RiTides
Your base is good. That is exactly what I would have done as well.
Both choices are solid. It would be a difficult choice indeed but at 1K, I'd probably go with the dual-mawloc list (but with zoanthrope). When in doubt, I would go for more bodies, which list #2 gives you, but only in a stand-alone list.
However, if you partner up for a 2K combined list, then I'd go with list #1 with the bastion. The bastion+venom+zoan acts as a force-multiplier and the higher the points you go, the more useful that combo becomes (as long as your partner can also take advantage of it).
So if you're not sure who your partner will be, I'd recommend list #2 with the gargoyles. If you know that you can always pair up with another bug player, then I'd recommend list #1 as it helps out both you and your partner.
My current Carnifex collection stands as follows...
3 x 2 scytals
3 x twin devourers
2 x scytals and crushing claws
2 x scytals and barbed stranglers
2 x crushing claws and venom cannons
2 x 2 scytals (3rd ed rhino-bugs)
1 x scytal and crushing claws (Old One Eye).
I can mix and match some. Seriously debating just having 2 blobs of twin scytals and one crusher with an Exocrine being my last Heavy for most games.
Realising 'nids can deal with Flyers through sheer weight of fire.
winterman wrote: There's a slight tweak to scything talons on stealers in that you don't have to upgrade the entire unit. Since casualties are inevitable it makes sense to go maybe half upgraded and half not (especially on larger 'shock' style units).
And if you happen to pull off an assault without having taken casualties you can keep the upgraded ones out of the combat and then pile them in for the following phase (eg your opponents assault phase)
Someone mentioned you shouldn't upgrade stealers since they will usually beat what they charge. That just isn't the case really when you usually loose half the unit at least before getting there and then loose more before going at I1 due to terrain. To me having those few extra attacks are going to be key to making stealers remotely viable as an assault unit.
Point for point toxin stealers and scythed stealers are pretty equal on killing power at T4 and below, and my semi math-hammer puts toxin stealers still at a very slight advantage. With a 50/50 mix of naked vs scythed stealers, you are only saving an average 1 ppm vs the toxin stealers, but have a major disadvantage against T5+ targets.
I see a lot of people talk about the Bastion and I have to admit I'm not well versed in fortification/building rules but how does this really work.
I always assumed that special/psychic powers etc etc... only impacted units in those structures. I did a quick glance of the brb and didn't see anything that makes me think otherwise.
I'm more than happy to get a hold of one if some of what I'm ready is correct....
Roci wrote: I see a lot of people talk about the Bastion and I have to admit I'm not well versed in fortification/building rules but how does this really work.
I always assumed that special/psychic powers etc etc... only impacted units in those structures. I did a quick glance of the brb and didn't see anything that makes me think otherwise.
I'm more than happy to get a hold of one if some of what I'm ready is correct....
i think and correct me if im wrong, you if a veno is in the bastion... you measure its cover save from the building instead of the model thus increaseing your cover save range.
Just out of curiosity, has anyone used the Hive Tyrants outflank-granting ability on a Hive Crone? The idea is to outflank with the Crone, which could allow you the opportunity to VS a quad gun, hopefully killing it before it ever gets to fire.
I don't play Nids, but I was going to suggest it to a buddy of mine once he gets a Crone, just wondering if its even a valid strategy.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Just out of curiosity, has anyone used the Hive Tyrants outflank-granting ability on a Hive Crone? The idea is to outflank with the Crone, which could allow you the opportunity to VS a quad gun, hopefully killing it before it ever gets to fire.
I don't play Nids, but I was going to suggest it to a buddy of mine once he gets a Crone, just wondering if its even a valid strategy.
Nope, no-one has, and that's because it's illegal. Hive Commander can only outflank a Troops choice.
IIRC Flyers can Outflank if they have the rule. Their only initial restriction is that they have to start in reserve. However flyers leaving the table enter 'Ongoing Reserves' which always enters play from the controlling players table edge. But as The Shadow has pointed out the point is moot since you can't give the Outflank rule to it they way you specified.
I haven't had the time to work on Part II yet, but I'll eventually get there.
Roci wrote: I see a lot of people talk about the Bastion and I have to admit I'm not well versed in fortification/building rules but how does this really work.
I always assumed that special/psychic powers etc etc... only impacted units in those structures. I did a quick glance of the brb and didn't see anything that makes me think otherwise.
I'm more than happy to get a hold of one if some of what I'm ready is correct....
Here is how psychic powers work with regards to bastions. Basically, a bastion is a building which uses almost the same rules for vehicles. You can use psychic powers from within, but only those that don't require LOS. Thus, if you have a psyker in a building, you can cast on yourself or your own unit, but you cannot cast on a unit outside because you cannot draw LOS to the target outside (unless the power does not require LOS). Currently, almost all maledictions, blessings and witchfire powers require LOS.
Dominion is good because it is cast on the psyker itself. However, if you have a zoanthrope within the building, then you cannot cast Catalyst or Onslaught or any of the shooting powers at a target outside.
Also, special rules inside a building are measured from the base of the building just as if it were a vehicle. That means Synapse, Shadows in the Warp and the venomthrope's Shrouded bubble will all benefit from it.
Razerous wrote: What are peoples thoughts on bog standard Trygons & single (or triple single) Zoans?
Same for naked hormagaunts as a replacement for terms with tervigons. Ofc you need the single 30 mob of terms at minimum
Personally, I like single-model zoanthrope units. They are more efficient because a unit of 1 can cast 2 powers. So 2 units of 1 can cast 2 powers whereas 1 unit of 2 can only cast 1 power. The trade-off, of course, is that 1 zoanthrope will be easier to kill unless you have a place to hide him.
Now you can solve that problem by taking a bastion.
Trygons are still a decent investment for the points. I wouldn't mind running them in certain types of lists.
I'm not a huge fan of hormagants unless I'm running a Tyranid horde list. Otherwise, I tend to go minimal on the troops (with a tervigon, of course) and invest my pointage in the rest of the army. The main reason is that troops are too synapse-reliant and if your opponent takes out your synapse, you can't really control them.
First, I appreciate this thread, as it has been very helpful as I dredge through the disappointment that is the Tyranid Codex. It's good to have ideas on the direction to take with the book. I have built the list below for a gathering of our local gaming group. i will be facing off against Tau (but not like fully tourney killing Tau), Orks, CSM, and some variation on Marines. We typically play at 1500, but sometimes play higher. If we do play higher, I plan to use this list as my basis for the higher point games. I was just wondering what you guys think about this:
McNinja wrote: Though I'm not a fan of the new codex, I've already got a bit of an army going, so I figure I'll finish it. What do you all think of something like this?
*If I'm not mistaken, this simply gives the Prime re-rolls to wound against models T6 or lower. Since this codex is the first time I've seen the Poisoned rule without a bracketed number, I'm unsure.
A lot of synapse, and the main troops don't care about synapse. I would try to use the Broodlords for their Horror power, since its a great suppression power. I really hope that the supplements breathe new life into this codex so we can all take that sigh of relief.
I am hesitant to spam broodlords. With just 10 gants and 15 stealers, your troops are somewhat squishy. They won't last very long against Tau or Eldar.
If you playtest them, I'd like to hear how they did.
I only need the stealers for pinning. Of course, since they are my troops I don't necessarily want them dying immediately. I plan on infiltrating them just barely outside of my deployment zone so that the Flyrants can do a sort of "clear the way" thing.
After thinking, I may take two harpies and downgrade the prime to a regular one and take out the Lictors. I'm not worried about AA, so I would simply give the Harpies Adrenal Glands and have them charge things. 2 S10 AP2 attacks on the charge or 4 S5 AP2 attacks in the charge, presumably after using the stranglethorn cannon and maybe pinning, would work great. I think.
ClassicCarraway wrote: Just out of curiosity, has anyone used the Hive Tyrants outflank-granting ability on a Hive Crone? The idea is to outflank with the Crone, which could allow you the opportunity to VS a quad gun, hopefully killing it before it ever gets to fire.
I don't play Nids, but I was going to suggest it to a buddy of mine once he gets a Crone, just wondering if its even a valid strategy.
Nope, no-one has, and that's because it's illegal. Hive Commander can only outflank a Troops choice.
Good to know! I guess it makes sense, as putting outflanking on any unit you want could be abused pretty badly. Thanks for the info
FAST ATTACK - 18 Gargoyles 14/18 Being Painted 3rd ed FAST ATTACK - 18 Gargoyles Unassembled 3rd ed
FAST ATTACK - 7 Raveners - Scything Talons Being Painted 5/7 4th ed FAST ATTACK - 7 Raveners - Rending Claws Painted 3/7 (5/7) 4th ed FAST ATTACK - 7 Raveners - Rending Claws Being Painted 5/7 4th ed
FAST ATTACK - 3 Shrikes - Twin Boneswords, Scything Talons Being Painted
HEAVY SUPPORT - 3 Carnifexes - 2 x Scything Talons Painted 1/3
HEAVY SUPPORT - 3 Carnifexes - 2 x Twin Devourers Being Painted
HEAVY SUPPORT - 2 Carnifexes - Scything Talons, Crushing Claws 1/2 Painted
HEAVY SUPPORT - 2 Carnifexes - Scything Talons, Barbed Strangler Being Painted
HEAVY SUPPORT - 2 Carnifexes - Crushing Claws, Heavy Venom Cannon Being Painted
HEAVY SUPPORT - 2 Carnifexes - 2 x Scything Talons Unassembled 3rd ed
HEAVY SUPPORT - Trygon Painted FW HEAVY SUPPORT - Trygon Being Painted FW
HEAVY SUPPORT - 2 Biovores Being Painted
HEAVY SUPPORT - 2 Biovores Being Painted 3rd ed HEAVY SUPPORT - 3 Biovores Being Painted 2nd ed
ESCALATION
* Scythed Hierodule Painted
* Scythed Hierodule Being Painted
* Barbed Hierodule Being Painted
Means I have plenty of options to play with.
To come is an Exocrine a friend is buying me at the end of the month as an IOU (since I gave him a Soul Grinder for nothing lol)
please i'm a noob tell me i this manouver is possible or breaks some rules:
i call massive deep strike...
at turn 2 1 lictors deepstrikes first
then you place a trygon prime armed with miasma cannon and you shoot with the 2 weapons (maybe on big ones to soften up)
then comes a mawloc with TFTD
then another one (maybe this is not needed due to the 6 inches)
then full unit of warriors or devilgants comes from the hole of the trigon (i thought of warriors due to the difficulty of placing 30 gants in a 6" radius)!
so that's it
the big question is can i use the pheromone trail rule right after i've deepstriked a non scattering lictor?
i've thought of this strategy watching some tau fights with them all clustered at the border if this works it could deal a MASSIVE damage.... let me know
badula wrote: please i'm a noob tell me i this manouver is possible or breaks some rules:
i call massive deep strike...
at turn 2 1 lictors deepstrikes first
then you place a trygon prime armed with miasma cannon and you shoot with the 2 weapons (maybe on big ones to soften up)
then comes a mawloc with TFTD
then another one (maybe this is not needed due to the 6 inches)
then full unit of warriors or devilgants comes from the hole of the trigon (i thought of warriors due to the difficulty of placing 30 gants in a 6" radius)!
so that's it
the big question is can i use the pheromone trail rule right after i've deepstriked a non scattering lictor?
i've thought of this strategy watching some tau fights with them all clustered at the border if this works it could deal a MASSIVE damage.... let me know
Lictors' trail only works if they were on the table at the beginning of the turn (so didn't come from reserves).
You also have to roll for reserves for all these, which could mean the trygon doesn't come in but your units you wanted in the tunnel do and have to walk on the boar from your table edge.
The problem is, you don't choose when your deepstriking units arrive (you roll) so it is very hard to predict and likely won't come in staggered how you want it.
roxor08 wrote: This might interest some folks, I was discussing with RiTides in his list thread regarding dakkafexen and how to increase their durability.
I just thought another super cheesey way to give your Fexs cover:
2 x 2 units of Carnifex w/ TL devouerers (1 with Regen)
Position them like so: V=Venomthrope (hopefully in a bastion or at the least behind an ADL), C1=Carnifex brood 1, C2=Carnifex brood 2, Cr=Carnifex with regen, X=empty space
With this positioning keeping at least 1 model in the Carnifex units within 6" of the Venomthrope, you can claim a 3+ coversave for the unit. You'll catch the unsuspecting (lazy) opponent who chooses not to focus fire by surprise. Additionally, if your opponent remembers to focus fire, you still can get the 5+ coversave AND the following turns rotate the fexes around to regen back those wounds like so:
If you include a bastion and embark the Venomthrope, you've got a unit that can really control the board.
Fexes will/should have (if done properly) a 3+/3+Cv/5+ FnP/4+ regen. That's a tough but to crack!!
Doesn't each model in the brood have to maintain unit coherency at 2"? I don't see how that's possible.
Yes, my diagram is assuming you are following all of the coherency rules. I never indicated that the "X's" were equal to an inch....They are just a place holder to help give relativity to the positioning between the models.
Still the principles should apply.
Focus fire completely ruins this strategy, just focus on the guy out front until he is dead then switch units as the other unit now has no screen.
As to the Doom and wishful thinking, unless he comes with his one form of deep strike he will still suck even if he doesn't change at all which I doubt. Has anyone ever had consistent success using the doom footslogging?
As to the comments by Eldercaveman about chapterhouse, your facts are off and I suggest reading through the lawsuit thread rather then muddy the waters here. It doesn't work the way your suggesting. I do think they wanted to cut back on rules without models, but I am thinking it has more to do with production costs and model development as to whether it was dropped. I read that GW is reaching it's ceiling on making these kits due to cost, that's why you see so many dual kits these days, and less per release.
Except focus fire will just reduce your claim to a Cover save to a 5+ instead of a 3+ Because shrouded is still in effect. With feel no pain and regen, that front carnifex is still pretty resilient.
That's all well and good, it also assumes they aren't shooting you with an ignores cover weapon too...
After some testing at home I have some ideas to share:
3 Harpys are cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, 3 Maulocs are also cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, spawn the same kind of force is always the way to go.... vehicles, infantery, flyers... MCs !!!
Basically 10 MC, 5 of them FMC, 60 gaunts, 4 Synapse nodes and nothing that really need it You reserve the 3 Maulocs and sometimes 1 of the Tervigons. Comm Array make the magic for you.
That makes 53 wounds of MCs witch we all know is pretty hard to down specially when they are pressing you hard.
"Maximun Threat Overload" I like the name, this is my view as an old hardass with grey hair in my balls of the most competitive list we can do atm.
HandsNFeetFace wrote: apologies if this was already stated, but I am a bit curious about something.
Let's say I am using Deathleaper as my Warlord and I roll Synaptic Lynchpin?!
I wish his IB was Hunt, at least that way the "does not effect models in units of 1" wouldn't affect it. Even more than that, rolling a 6 doesn't even benefit him as he already has stealth.
I just feel like 120 genestealers would be a nightmare to face! (and move lol)
Another fun idea:
Use 180 hormagaunts, with flyrants for synapse and some venomthropes for cover. Hide the 'thropes behind a bastion (with a zoan for their synapse), and conga line your gaunts back to the bastion so they get shrouded. The squads of gaunts themselves would interlock to give each other a 3+ cover save, or you could have a sacrificial one in front. They won't have enough markelights to wipe you all out in the 2 turns it will take to get there. And if your opponent doesn't have stuff that ignores cover, it's gonna suck. Fill any extra points with fexes, alternatively you could substitute primes attached to your fex squads for the flyrants.
At just under 2" coherency, that many guants will take up 6.6 square feet of the table.
I just feel like 120 genestealers would be a nightmare to face! (and move lol)
Another fun idea:
Use 180 hormagaunts, with flyrants for synapse and some venomthropes for cover. Hide the 'thropes behind a bastion (with a zoan for their synapse), and conga line your gaunts back to the bastion so they get shrouded. The squads of gaunts themselves would interlock to give each other a 3+ cover save, or you could have a sacrificial one in front. They won't have enough markelights to wipe you all out in the 2 turns it will take to get there. And if your opponent doesn't have stuff that ignores cover, it's gonna suck. Fill any extra points with fexes, alternatively you could substitute primes attached to your fex squads for the flyrants.
At just under 2" coherency, that many guants will take up 6.6 square feet of the table.
And imagine the domino effect, when one of them falls over...
And how quick do you propose playing a game with 180 Gaunts, ensuring they are 2" apart all the time, and inter mingling the units to ensure cover saves, and not forgetting which models are in which unit?
Sandokann wrote: After some testing at home I have some ideas to share:
3 Harpys are cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, 3 Maulocs are also cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, spawn the same kind of force is always the way to go.... vehicles, infantery, flyers... MCs !!!
Basically 10 MC, 5 of them FMC, 60 gaunts, 4 Synapse nodes and nothing that really need it You reserve the 3 Maulocs and sometimes 1 of the Tervigons. Comm Array make the magic for you.
That makes 53 wounds of MCs witch we all know is pretty hard to down specially when they are pressing you hard.
"Maximun Threat Overload" I like the name, this is my view as an old hardass with grey hair in my balls of the most competitive list we can do atm.
Criticism please.
Very nice list. I really like it. Very Maximum Threat Overload indeed!
I just feel like 120 genestealers would be a nightmare to face! (and move lol)
Another fun idea:
Use 180 hormagaunts, with flyrants for synapse and some venomthropes for cover. Hide the 'thropes behind a bastion (with a zoan for their synapse), and conga line your gaunts back to the bastion so they get shrouded. The squads of gaunts themselves would interlock to give each other a 3+ cover save, or you could have a sacrificial one in front. They won't have enough markelights to wipe you all out in the 2 turns it will take to get there. And if your opponent doesn't have stuff that ignores cover, it's gonna suck. Fill any extra points with fexes, alternatively you could substitute primes attached to your fex squads for the flyrants.
At just under 2" coherency, that many guants will take up 6.6 square feet of the table.
Interesting idea, but a pure horde army just isn't viable. Take out the flyrant and whatever synapse in the army and the gribblies go crazy. Moreover, they can't hurt any tanks at all. Take out synapse and you can just tank shock all game.
Duke_Mantis wrote: In heavy support im torn between double exocrine + triple carnifex or double exocrine + rupture tyrannofex...
p.s- bought two exocrines so im using them dammit :p
Personally, I'm hesitant to run more than one exocrine. Volume of shots is IMO what will win games for tyranids, but give it a try and let us know how they do.
I'd recommend that you magnetize it if possible so that you can run either the exocrine or the haruspex.
And how quick do you propose playing a game with 180 Gaunts, ensuring they are 2" apart all the time, and inter mingling the units to ensure cover saves, and not forgetting which models are in which unit?
I am thinking of starting a small Tyranid force but am a little unsure how to arm things.
My concept for the force is lots of big guys dropping lots of pie plates!
Sticking to 1000 points to get me started I was thinking of :
Tyrant strangle cannon lash whip and bonesword. 200
2 guards. 100
2 units of 3 Warriors barbed strangler and deathspitters and rend claws. 250
2 x carnifexes stranglethorn cannon and devourers. 300
Not quite sure where else to go with this as the core. Maybe a venom? The Tyrant and guard seems a huge point sink at this level, could I run a prime at 1000 point level?
Are fexes with strangle and devourers a bad idea? Seems like they would work well together to me but no on else is mentioning them?
Feel free to tell me if this is a horrible starting point as I don't want to waste my time with this idea if it will not work!
Tremble wrote: I am thinking of starting a small Tyranid force but am a little unsure how to arm things.
My concept for the force is lots of big guys dropping lots of pie plates!
Sticking to 1000 points to get me started I was thinking of :
Tyrant strangle cannon lash whip and bonesword. 200
2 guards. 100
2 units of 3 Warriors barbed strangler and deathspitters and rend claws. 250
2 x carnifexes stranglethorn cannon and devourers. 300
Not quite sure where else to go with this as the core. Maybe a venom? The Tyrant and guard seems a huge point sink at this level, could I run a prime at 1000 point level?
Are fexes with strangle and devourers a bad idea? Seems like they would work well together to me but no on else is mentioning them?
Feel free to tell me if this is a horrible starting point as I don't want to waste my time with this idea if it will not work!
Tremble
1st thing I'd do is stop mixing assault and gun upgrades. If you want assault and shooting with Tyranids, it's best to do it with different units...think of bugs like Aspect Warriors in that respect.
I think the devourer is a little costly for some pie plate MCs...now since keeping the Scytals or LW/BS isn't too worth it, I might consider the super cheap deathspitters. Deathspitters give you about 1/2 the damage of a devourer for about 1/3 the cost, while S5 is very different than S6, when you're not running 2 devourers, the value of being S6 quickly depreciates.
I keep playing Warriors over and over...and they are supposed to be a shooty unit...I'd lose your combat upgrades, adrenals can still be used here for Turn 1/2 runs, but that depends on the rest of the list.
Personally, I am just running 3 Warriors with a Strangler...costs as much as 2 Zoeys, provides synapse, is fairly hearty if kept at 36" range, and is scoring.
For a blast theme list, you should also consider exocrines, mawlocs, and harpies...and biovores...definitely biovores.
And how quick do you propose playing a game with 180 Gaunts, ensuring they are 2" apart all the time, and inter mingling the units to ensure cover saves, and not forgetting which models are in which unit?
Same way I do with spawned Termagant units.
Magnets in their bases for storage, throw a painted 1" steel washer underneath them. Magnet holds the washer there, washer makes model more stable, can see colored lip around the base. Just need a few different colors of washers (which is like $5 for 100 and a few minutes with red/green/blue/white/yellow/purple paint)
I dunno, I think paying 8pts a head for really fragile guys that still need a synapse babysitter is a bit much. I'm warming up to the idea of units with 20 Fleshborers and 10 Devilgaunts. 80pts cheaper and while the firepower is reduced casualties from non-barrage are much more bearable points wise.
I don't think I'd want to outflank though, with Synapse being what it is I think as much as possible the army needs to be kept together in a single hammer blow. If Genestealers were better I'd maybe use them for outflanking but not gaunts. Warriors might work assuming your opponent is packing the level of S8 firepower to smash them to pieces after they arrive.
Sandokann wrote: After some testing at home I have some ideas to share:
3 Harpys are cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, 3 Maulocs are also cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, spawn the same kind of force is always the way to go.... vehicles, infantery, flyers... MCs !!!
Basically 10 MC, 5 of them FMC, 60 gaunts, 4 Synapse nodes and nothing that really need it You reserve the 3 Maulocs and sometimes 1 of the Tervigons. Comm Array make the magic for you.
That makes 53 wounds of MCs witch we all know is pretty hard to down specially when they are pressing you hard.
"Maximun Threat Overload" I like the name, this is my view as an old hardass with grey hair in my balls of the most competitive list we can do atm.
Criticism please.
Looks like a fun list to play against
I say this as a infantry heavy marine player, I think the two armies would shoot the bejesus out of each other before the inevitable mega melee, and it would be one hell of a good time for both
Dunklezahn wrote: I'm warming up to the idea of units with 20 Fleshborers and 10 Devilgaunts.
Good catch...but I'd swap that and outflank them...10Fleshborers, and 20 Devourers should kill reliably kill 11-12 Fire Warriors when they come in...which is a pretty good loadout without being overkill and wasting points.
Good catch...but I'd swap that and outflank them...10Fleshborers, and 20 Devourers should kill reliably kill 11-12 Fire Warriors when they come in...which is a pretty good loadout without being overkill and wasting points.
I can see that working, if you are outflanking you are gonna take less fire on the way so you can afford more killers and less meat shield.
My guys will be scuttling round the Tyrant so are gonna catch more grief on the way into range.
An assault Prime is an expensive way to keep them in line, are you planning on running a Flyrant? He could always swoop over and cover them if need be and then you haven't spent more points on the unit.
Good catch...but I'd swap that and outflank them...10Fleshborers, and 20 Devourers should kill reliably kill 11-12 Fire Warriors when they come in...which is a pretty good loadout without being overkill and wasting points.
I can see that working, if you are outflanking you are gonna take less fire on the way so you can afford more killers and less meat shield.
My guys will be scuttling round the Tyrant so are gonna catch more grief on the way into range.
An assault Prime is an expensive way to keep them in line, are you planning on running a Flyrant? He could always swoop over and cover them if need be and then you haven't spent more points on the unit.
But an assault prime also forces counterassault units to back off, and has 30 ablative wounds on his way in to wrecking some face.
My Prime is (LW/BS, Scytals, Toxin Sacs) though I am considering losing the Toxin and taking the Miasma Cannon to keep in tone with the Termagants.
Good catch...but I'd swap that and outflank them...10Fleshborers, and 20 Devourers should kill reliably kill 11-12 Fire Warriors when they come in...which is a pretty good loadout without being overkill and wasting points.
I can see that working, if you are outflanking you are gonna take less fire on the way so you can afford more killers and less meat shield.
My guys will be scuttling round the Tyrant so are gonna catch more grief on the way into range.
An assault Prime is an expensive way to keep them in line, are you planning on running a Flyrant? He could always swoop over and cover them if need be and then you haven't spent more points on the unit.
But an assault prime also forces counterassault units to back off, and has 30 ablative wounds on his way in to wrecking some face.
My Prime is (LW/BS, Scytals, Toxin Sacs) though I am considering losing the Toxin and taking the Miasma Cannon to keep in tone with the Termagants.
I've thought the same thing. With the loss of spore pods our deep striking devilgant squads are no more, but Hive Commander outflanking a unit is still very effective and half the cost of an old Spod. It IS legal to outflank an assault prime with the brood if you wish - the troop unit gains outflank, and is held in reserve. the IC joins them in reserve, and has outflank conferred upon him by the unit - then they all outflank together.
Alternatively you can do it with 2 units in one list if you take 2 Hive Commander tyrants. Just make sure to give one the Norn Crown/Dominion/Wings so he can extend his synapse to the broods when they come on, otherwise you'll get 1 shooting phase with them and then they'll fall apart. Deep Striking or advancing through cover Shrikes can help keep the forward units in check as well.
Overall our new way of playing the nid codex is going to be protecting our synapse creatures while we send the expendable masses and monstrous creatures to do the rest of the work - just like in the fluff.
Sandokann wrote: After some testing at home I have some ideas to share:
3 Harpys are cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, 3 Maulocs are also cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, spawn the same kind of force is always the way to go.... vehicles, infantery, flyers... MCs !!!
Basically 10 MC, 5 of them FMC, 60 gaunts, 4 Synapse nodes and nothing that really need it You reserve the 3 Maulocs and sometimes 1 of the Tervigons. Comm Array make the magic for you.
That makes 53 wounds of MCs witch we all know is pretty hard to down specially when they are pressing you hard.
"Maximun Threat Overload" I like the name, this is my view as an old hardass with grey hair in my balls of the most competitive list we can do atm.
Criticism please.
Nicely done! I really like it.
What do you think about this, if going with Carnifexes. The below list is for 1850, not 2K like the above, though.
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers - 230
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers - 230
Tervigon - 195
30 Termagaunts - 120
Zoanthrope - 50
Zoanthrope - 50
Venomthrope - 45
20 Gargoyles - 120
3 Spore Mines - 15
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers - 300
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 X TL Brainleech Devourers - 300
3 Biovores - 120
Bastion - 75
Total - 1850
Not sure what to do with the extra 15 points other than get a set of spore mines, and hope to land them near some that the Biovores generate. Wish I could fit in a small 40-point unit of gaunts, but even with dropping the spore mines I'd be 25 short... and it doesn't seem worth it to drop 5 gargoyles.
After some testing at home I have some ideas to share:
3 Harpys are cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, 3 Maulocs are also cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, spawn the same kind of force is always the way to go.... vehicles, infantery, flyers... MCs !!!
Basically 10 MC, 5 of them FMC, 60 gaunts, 4 Synapse nodes and nothing that really need it You reserve the 3 Maulocs and sometimes 1 of the Tervigons. Comm Array make the magic for you.
That makes 53 wounds of MCs witch we all know is pretty hard to down specially when they are pressing you hard.
"Maximun Threat Overload" I like the name, this is my view as an old hardass with grey hair in my balls of the most competitive list we can do atm.
Criticism please.
Nicely done! I really like it.
What do you think about this, if going with Carnifexes. The below list is for 1850, not 2K like the above, though.
Spoiler:
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers - 230
Hive Tyrant, Wings, 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers - 230
Tervigon - 195
30 Termagaunts - 120
Zoanthrope - 50
Zoanthrope - 50
Venomthrope - 45
20 Gargoyles - 120
3 Spore Mines - 15
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers - 300
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 X TL Brainleech Devourers - 300
3 Biovores - 120
Bastion - 75
Total - 1850
Not sure what to do with the extra 15 points other than get a set of spore mines, and hope to land them near some that the Biovores generate. Wish I could fit in a small 40-point unit of gaunts, but even with dropping the spore mines I'd be 25 short... and it doesn't seem worth it to drop 5 gargoyles.
Man I really like the list. I've got my own variation. What do you think?
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers, one with regeneration- 330
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 X TL Brainleech Devourers, one with regeneration - 330
2 Biovores - 120
Bastion - 75
Total - 1850
Major differences being that I'll have to use the gant unit to screen the carnifexen instead of gargoyles, but I can outflank the Tervigon who can be threatening to armor due to crushing claws....
In my mind, I can also use the genestealers to provide a screen for the carnifexen if I'm hard pressed to find an ideal spot to infiltrate them.
I used thst exact list over on vassal a few days ago vs a ovessa star, it was sheer overload as you said but in that particular game he left his skyfire broadsides out in exchange of the aa tank, that tank got 1 of my venom cannon harpies before being shot in the arse by my flyrants and it died, the star went down through the efforts of a single tyrant with ancient horror, I think that upgrade is a must now as space marines are no longer the standard in my meta and 3d6 fear I have found very useful so far.
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers, one with regeneration- 330
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 X TL Brainleech Devourers, one with regeneration - 330
2 Biovores - 120
Bastion - 75
Total - 1850
Major differences being that I'll have to use the gant unit to screen the carnifexen instead of gargoyles, but I can outflank the Tervigon who can be threatening to armor due to crushing claws....
In my mind, I can also use the genestealers to provide a screen for the carnifexen if I'm hard pressed to find an ideal spot to infiltrate them.
I think you messed up your quote tags, roxor
But I like your variation quite a bit . I will be very interested to see how Genestealers + Broodlord work out... sounds like they could do well in some matchups.
I've played three games so far this week and modified my list each time. So far I've learned:
Having a stranglethorn cannon on fexes and my Flyrant is a good thing. Doing damage early and mitigating at least one squad of shooting via pinning is very helpful, especially if Flyrant rolled the Horror. I'm also trying out one of the Fex's with a venom cannon
for cautionary antitank threat, and even Cluster spines on a Tervigon. Pie plates that can slightly mitigate infantry, keep heads down, and start killing turn one instead of having to march forward. Also Im flying the Flyrant further back turns 1 and 2 and this keeps him shooting.
Gargoyles are more cost effective just running them virgin. All of them can still poison on 6's and the blinding tests have to eventually fail, ensuring that they are effective tarpitters. I've just been sprinting them towards whatever I need to keep from shooting while my Fex's move up the field.
Tervigon may actually be the best troop choice despite her bloated cost. Running Termagants has been too unreliable, players are smart and they are gunning down their chaperons (Zoanthropes) and I still just cant justify Warriors, even with Venomthrope protection. I wanted to write her off, but I may still need her.
Backfield disruption via Mawloc and Trygon (And even crone) are almost necessary now in my opinion, because I cant have that firepower coming downrange,
Thoughts?
This is my list thats been 'refined' so far:
2000pts
Flyrant: Regen, Hive Commander, Stranglethorn and Devourer
ok guys im really confused... how our Biovors good now? i see so many people talking amazing stuff about them... mine did nothing at all.. took a squad of three.. and the 2 rounds of fireing i had with them they hit first plate, missed the second 2 plates... first wounds didnt do anything... second round of shooting all three plates hit dead on, didnt do anything but killed a T4 battlesuite... i figure these guys are infantry killers but i just dont see them doing anything useful playing a taudar list. I tried play testing with my buddy who was taudar list, and i use to kill him every game with 5th ed book, and he was running tourny lists. Well now my army was reduced to nothing by the beginning of turn 3.... duel wraithknights naked, can remove 2 MCs a turn... >_< stupid 6s... fliers feel like they are useless accept the hive tyrant. Warriors are great little synapis anchors, trannofex was killed turn 1 never got a chance to move. genestealers with lord couldnt pin the riptide. exos where cool, but dont have alot of punch.
I must be playing biovores wrong cause they to me feel like the most useless unit i have. hated them in 5th, not happy with them in 4th.
very frustrating to have no real effective way to sit down 2 wraithknights and a riptide.... deathleaper was fun but doesnt feel worth the points granted my friend ignored it the turn it arrived and shoot everything else then when nothing left to shoot he emptyed his army into it and couldnt kill it shoot so charged it with 3 squads of guardians and killed it. This is my first playtest with the codex, tried some new stuff, couldnt put any synergy together... so gonna try a more small model based game tomorrow (playtesting at a tourny this should be interesting >_<
Iechine- Awesome, for some reason I hadn't considered Stranglethorn + Devourers on the Fexes and Flyrants. Very interesting!
stormoffires- I think the second two templates should just be placed touching the first if the first hits, so on your first round of shooting you could've hit things with all 3 I would've thought.
stormoffires wrote: ok guys im really confused... how our Biovors good now? i see so many people talking amazing stuff about them... mine did nothing at all.. took a squad of three.. and the 2 rounds of fireing i had with them they hit first plate, missed the second 2 plates... first wounds didnt do anything... second round of shooting all three plates hit dead on, didnt do anything but killed a T4 battlesuite... i figure these guys are infantry killers but i just dont see them doing anything useful playing a taudar list. I tried play testing with my buddy who was taudar list, and i use to kill him every game with 5th ed book, and he was running tourny lists. Well now my army was reduced to nothing by the beginning of turn 3.... duel wraithknights naked, can remove 2 MCs a turn... >_< stupid 6s... fliers feel like they are useless accept the hive tyrant. Warriors are great little synapis anchors, trannofex was killed turn 1 never got a chance to move. genestealers with lord couldnt pin the riptide. exos where cool, but dont have alot of punch.
I must be playing biovores wrong cause they to me feel like the most useless unit i have. hated them in 5th, not happy with them in 4th.
very frustrating to have no real effective way to sit down 2 wraithknights and a riptide.... deathleaper was fun but doesnt feel worth the points granted my friend ignored it the turn it arrived and shoot everything else then when nothing left to shoot he emptyed his army into it and couldnt kill it shoot so charged it with 3 squads of guardians and killed it. This is my first playtest with the codex, tried some new stuff, couldnt put any synergy together... so gonna try a more small model based game tomorrow (playtesting at a tourny this should be interesting >_<
Explain how you believe the barrage rules work, how you usually play them?
stormoffires- I think the second two templates should just be placed touching the first if the first hits, so on your first round of shooting you could've hit things with all 3 I would've thought.
this is how i used them. first scatteres according to dice, second and third go off of the template edge to edge. OO <- like so
I've been reading this topic closely; haven't play a game since the new dex came out. Bought the collectors :p and working on three crones.
Magnetizing the third so it'll be a crone / harpy.
Still having a hard time thinking of a build. I need one around 1500 and 2000. One needs to use the swarmlord.
So I just have a few questions.
1) Trygon Prime. Haven't seen him talked about much. Trygon tunnels aside, Miasmia Cannon + bio containment + synapse worth the points?
2) Mawloc good enough to run one of? Or is a second necessary?
3) Biovores or Exocrines? Got 3 Bios, but I'm a huge fan of MCs. Is one vastly superior to the other?
4) Carnifex. Wouldn't run outside a 3 man brood. I assume Dakkafex is the build. Cannons have any place on him?
5) Never owned a single venomthrope. How important would they be for my first game? Should I run two?
Megamanrocks wrote: I've been reading this topic closely; haven't play a game since the new dex came out. Bought the collectors :p and working on three crones.
Magnetizing the third so it'll be a crone / harpy.
Still having a hard time thinking of a build. I need one around 1500 and 2000. One needs to use the swarmlord.
So I just have a few questions.
1) Trygon Prime. Haven't seen him talked about much. Trygon tunnels aside, Miasmia Cannon + bio containment + synapse worth the points?
2) Mawloc good enough to run one of? Or is a second necessary?
3) Biovores or Exocrines? Got 3 Bios, but I'm a huge fan of MCs. Is one vastly superior to the other?
4) Carnifex. Wouldn't run outside a 3 man brood. I assume Dakkafex is the build. Cannons have any place on him?
5) Never owned a single venomthrope. How important would they be for my first game? Should I run two?
personally Trygon prime to point cost, is not effective anymore.
mawlocs awesome, 2 if you can do it.
biovores/exo.. still scratching my head
carnifexs, always awesome, buuuut trannofex is better for walking across and taking wounds plus torrent flammer (personally speaking and this is what looks good on paper/mathhammer, game play is another story)
Venos loved them in my game.. +2 to your coversave...... so in ruins you have a 2+ cover save.. jinks can be a 3+... intervene model, 3+ :-p (you can hide almost any MC behind a warrior
Megamanrocks wrote: I've been reading this topic closely; haven't play a game since the new dex came out. Bought the collectors :p and working on three crones.
Magnetizing the third so it'll be a crone / harpy.
Still having a hard time thinking of a build. I need one around 1500 and 2000. One needs to use the swarmlord.
So I just have a few questions.
1) Trygon Prime. Haven't seen him talked about much. Trygon tunnels aside, Miasmia Cannon + bio containment + synapse worth the points?
2) Mawloc good enough to run one of? Or is a second necessary?
3) Biovores or Exocrines? Got 3 Bios, but I'm a huge fan of MCs. Is one vastly superior to the other?
4) Carnifex. Wouldn't run outside a 3 man brood. I assume Dakkafex is the build. Cannons have any place on him?
5) Never owned a single venomthrope. How important would they be for my first game? Should I run two?
personally Trygon prime to point cost, is not effective anymore.
mawlocs awesome, 2 if you can do it.
biovores/exo.. still scratching my head
carnifexs, always awesome, buuuut trannofex is better for walking across and taking wounds plus torrent flammer (personally speaking and this is what looks good on paper/mathhammer, game play is another story)
Venos loved them in my game.. +2 to your coversave...... so in ruins you have a 2+ cover save.. jinks can be a 3+... intervene model, 3+ :-p (you can hide almost any MC behind a warrior
Shame. Prime was always my go-to for heavy support.
Mawloc looks great. Without pheromone trail from Lictors, seems like a big gamble though. Couldn't imagine running them without it.
Yea I'm thinking the same on Bio / Exo. Since the mines can't do str 10 yet, I think the faq update will pick the winner here.
On that same coin, an faq update is the reason I'm not running out to buy fortifications. I'm fairly certain we'll lose them again.
I do have a tyrannofex; glued him with the rupture cannon. I suppose a quick cut job could switch him to the flamer.
Yea, I'll do a venomthrope. Probably 3 hive guard. Now to fill the last elite slot.
stormoffires- I think the second two templates should just be placed touching the first if the first hits, so on your first round of shooting you could've hit things with all 3 I would've thought.
this is how i used them. first scatteres according to dice, second and third go off of the template edge to edge. OO <- like so
However, don't forget that if you roll a hit with blast 2 or 3 they can be placed anywhere touching the previous markers, even overlapping. there's alot of bonuses with Biovores and Barrage weapons in general. There's the ability to get behind cover so your opponent doesn't get cover saves. There's Barrage sniping (especially vs non-character, special weapon models). Biovores are also very cheap. Finally the spores they make if they don't hit it would seem have the ability to charge the turn they are placed (since they aren't deep striking) (this may be clarified with an FAQ) giving you possibly a stronger blast or causing a wasted overwatch.
I had my first game with the new nids last night. Was a very good, very close game, that ended in a draw. Played against a MC heavy Slannesh Daemon army. Four flying Daemon Princes, Keeper of Secrets, Grimoire, Porta, a billion gifts and psychic powers, Daemonettes, and a huge Seeker horde.
I ran a non-optimal list, most likely, cause I wanted to try out some units. Tyrannofex was a beast. I kept him on the move as a threat to the scoring Daemonettes which he melted dozens. Gargoyles were an excellent tarpit. Hormagants were also an excellent tarpit. They are fast now, and can get into combat quite quickly - keep them cheap for a fast tarpit. Tervigon did a lot of heavy lifting with her Dessicator Larvae swarm. But the MVP was Swarmlord. I had so many fast units on the table to tie up the Daemons that Swarmlord could pick and choose from the smorgasbord of combats he could win. I didn't bring any anti-air, but that didn't matter as the Daemon Princes were forced to land and deal with me in assault to prevent me claiming objectives.
stormoffires- I think the second two templates should just be placed touching the first if the first hits, so on your first round of shooting you could've hit things with all 3 I would've thought.
this is how i used them. first scatteres according to dice, second and third go off of the template edge to edge. OO <- like so
However, don't forget that if you roll a hit with blast 2 or 3 they can be placed anywhere touching the previous markers, even overlapping. there's alot of bonuses with Biovores and Barrage weapons in general. There's the ability to get behind cover so your opponent doesn't get cover saves. There's Barrage sniping (especially vs non-character, special weapon models). Biovores are also very cheap. Finally the spores they make if they don't hit it would seem have the ability to charge the turn they are placed (since they aren't deep striking) (this may be clarified with an FAQ) giving you possibly a stronger blast or causing a wasted overwatch.
if you read my first post about the biovores, you would notice the second fire all three templates hit direct, so they where placed ontop of one another for max impact killing 1 battlesuite. Also you only get to place spores if the first template misses completely, and a large blast can be hard to miss a whole group when scattering 2D6 (you need over 7 inch to clear the group usally) and even then if you scatter say 10inch, you best hope your spores are within six inches of the enemy as their max charge range is 6in. sure you can snipe with that 36 range, but thats also a lost hvy slot, to troop killers only. Where the exo pieplate is waaay more effective and can choose to shoot 6 st7 ap2 shots instead. for close to the same cost as a squad of biovores. Heck a single mawloc can hit twice with str 6 ap2 large blast, and be just as reliable as the biovores... I dont see biovores making it to the tourny tables without an FAQ to spore mines.
RiTides wrote: But since you didn't overlap the second and third templates on your first round of shooting, you could have done more damage that way, right?
first pie plate on the first shot, scattred a few niches only catching 2 models... second template the scatter die through it on the wrong side missing, third time the die through the final pie plate in a direction that caught nothing as well.
^this is my biggest gripe with barrage really, is the fact that other templates can miss completely even tho your first caught say a single model on an edge making your odds of hitting with the last 2 templates very low.
stormoffires- I think the second two templates should just be placed touching the first if the first hits, so on your first round of shooting you could've hit things with all 3 I would've thought.
this is how i used them. first scatteres according to dice, second and third go off of the template edge to edge. OO <- like so
However, don't forget that if you roll a hit with blast 2 or 3 they can be placed anywhere touching the previous markers, even overlapping. there's alot of bonuses with Biovores and Barrage weapons in general. There's the ability to get behind cover so your opponent doesn't get cover saves. There's Barrage sniping (especially vs non-character, special weapon models). Biovores are also very cheap. Finally the spores they make if they don't hit it would seem have the ability to charge the turn they are placed (since they aren't deep striking) (this may be clarified with an FAQ) giving you possibly a stronger blast or causing a wasted overwatch.
if you read my first post about the biovores, you would notice the second fire all three templates hit direct, so they where placed ontop of one another for max impact killing 1 battlesuite. Also you only get to place spores if the first template misses completely, and a large blast can be hard to miss a whole group when scattering 2D6 (you need over 7 inch to clear the group usally) and even then if you scatter say 10inch, you best hope your spores are within six inches of the enemy as their max charge range is 6in. sure you can snipe with that 36 range, but thats also a lost hvy slot, to troop killers only. Where the exo pieplate is waaay more effective and can choose to shoot 6 st7 ap2 shots instead. for close to the same cost as a squad of biovores. Heck a single mawloc can hit twice with str 6 ap2 large blast, and be just as reliable as the biovores... I dont see biovores making it to the tourny tables without an FAQ to spore mines.
I think they have their merits, but our Heavy slot is packed with alot of good choices, so it's very hard to decide.
What is the opinion on carnifexes with heavy venom cannons? I haven't tried them yet but they seem viable as a way to strip hull points from av13 tanks at a distance. Some of my opponents like to back against the wall with 48" range weapons while I have to walk over to them. Flyrants help but only if I get to the sides or rear.
The biovore thing is cause they cause pinning and can just camp out of LOS. They've never really failed me, i'm just wanting my heavy slots back!
Too good not to take imo.
So i guess everyone has settled for 'thropes in Elites then. I don't own any Venoms so am gonna try 3x2 Zoanies. 3 out of 6 psychic rolls, gotta get summit good I hope!
shamroll wrote: What is the opinion on carnifexes with heavy venom cannons? I haven't tried them yet but they seem viable as a way to strip hull points from av13 tanks at a distance. Some of my opponents like to back against the wall with 48" range weapons while I have to walk over to them. Flyrants help but only if I get to the sides or rear.
Unless you are running multiples it is nit very reliable.
shamroll wrote: What is the opinion on carnifexes with heavy venom cannons? I haven't tried them yet but they seem viable as a way to strip hull points from av13 tanks at a distance. Some of my opponents like to back against the wall with 48" range weapons while I have to walk over to them. Flyrants help but only if I get to the sides or rear.
Unless you are running multiples it is nit very reliable.
I was planning on a brood of 3 with heavy venom cannons. Blast away while I move up into charge range.
shamroll wrote: What is the opinion on carnifexes with heavy venom cannons? I haven't tried them yet but they seem viable as a way to strip hull points from av13 tanks at a distance. Some of my opponents like to back against the wall with 48" range weapons while I have to walk over to them. Flyrants help but only if I get to the sides or rear.
Unless you are running multiples it is nit very reliable.
I was planning on a brood of 3 with heavy venom cannons. Blast away while I move up into charge range.
That's 60 points though. That's a lot of points. It's useful, but I'd rather spend that 60 points on, say, a Zoanthrope, or on some more useful upgrades for my Fexes. Adrenal Glands' Furious Charge (ID T5 anyone?) and Fleet is extremely useful and I think you would get more ranged mileage out of two TLDevs.
stormoffires- I think the second two templates should just be placed touching the first if the first hits, so on your first round of shooting you could've hit things with all 3 I would've thought.
this is how i used them. first scatteres according to dice, second and third go off of the template edge to edge. OO <- like so
However, don't forget that if you roll a hit with blast 2 or 3 they can be placed anywhere touching the previous markers, even overlapping. there's alot of bonuses with Biovores and Barrage weapons in general. There's the ability to get behind cover so your opponent doesn't get cover saves. There's Barrage sniping (especially vs non-character, special weapon models). Biovores are also very cheap. Finally the spores they make if they don't hit it would seem have the ability to charge the turn they are placed (since they aren't deep striking) (this may be clarified with an FAQ) giving you possibly a stronger blast or causing a wasted overwatch.
if you read my first post about the biovores, you would notice the second fire all three templates hit direct, so they where placed ontop of one another for max impact killing 1 battlesuite. Also you only get to place spores if the first template misses completely, and a large blast can be hard to miss a whole group when scattering 2D6 (you need over 7 inch to clear the group usally) and even then if you scatter say 10inch, you best hope your spores are within six inches of the enemy as their max charge range is 6in. sure you can snipe with that 36 range, but thats also a lost hvy slot, to troop killers only. Where the exo pieplate is waaay more effective and can choose to shoot 6 st7 ap2 shots instead. for close to the same cost as a squad of biovores. Heck a single mawloc can hit twice with str 6 ap2 large blast, and be just as reliable as the biovores... I dont see biovores making it to the tourny tables without an FAQ to spore mines.
O.o What?
3 Biovores is cheaper than a Mawloc/Exocrine and can stay out of site. Plus, Barrage sniping. Sure maybe not many spores get placed but that's better than every other gun that just misses. They are much better vs Infantry than either, and more reliable, plus more durable. Exocrines have their place and are useful, but 3 Biovores is an auto-take in my book.
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 x TL Brainleech Devourers, one with regeneration- 330
2 Carnifexes, each with 2 X TL Brainleech Devourers, one with regeneration - 330
2 Biovores - 120
Bastion - 75
Total - 1850
Major differences being that I'll have to use the gant unit to screen the carnifexen instead of gargoyles, but I can outflank the Tervigon who can be threatening to armor due to crushing claws....
In my mind, I can also use the genestealers to provide a screen for the carnifexen if I'm hard pressed to find an ideal spot to infiltrate them.
I think you messed up your quote tags, roxor
But I like your variation quite a bit . I will be very interested to see how Genestealers + Broodlord work out... sounds like they could do well in some matchups.
There we go, fixed the tags ;-)
I think I like the addition of the genestealers, because you get the guaranteed "the horror", you get deployment options (infiltrate/outflank) and they aren't necessarily pushovers in combat either. Lastly, their scoring!! So they've got to be dealt with!!!!
Megamanrocks wrote: I've been reading this topic closely; haven't play a game since the new dex came out. Bought the collectors :p and working on three crones.
Magnetizing the third so it'll be a crone / harpy.
Still having a hard time thinking of a build. I need one around 1500 and 2000. One needs to use the swarmlord.
So I just have a few questions.
1) Trygon Prime. Haven't seen him talked about much. Trygon tunnels aside, Miasmia Cannon + bio containment + synapse worth the points?
2) Mawloc good enough to run one of? Or is a second necessary?
3) Biovores or Exocrines? Got 3 Bios, but I'm a huge fan of MCs. Is one vastly superior to the other?
4) Carnifex. Wouldn't run outside a 3 man brood. I assume Dakkafex is the build. Cannons have any place on him?
5) Never owned a single venomthrope. How important would they be for my first game? Should I run two?
can you show what are you doing to magnetize the crone?
things on the back aren't good to be magnetized the only things i think are easy to do are the head and the shooting arms and maybe tac to fix the tentaclids on their anchor points...
I've noticed a lot of people talking about spore mines and hitting S10. I think the design was put in for people who want to pay for a spore mine cluster outright. You can by them in groups of 3-9 I believe (dont have dex in frount of me). this is how you would get to S10 with them. When shooting from a group of biovores, they would be different clusters since it is spawned from the missed template.
Also on that note, I see people talking about barrage with the biovores. Would each shof roll to scatter as normal since it is different models shooting. Sure it is in the same group, but the weapon profile itself is Asault 1 , barrage. So it would not move around like a standard barrage. Am I right in this thought process.
Megamanrocks wrote: I've been reading this topic closely; haven't play a game since the new dex came out. Bought the collectors :p and working on three crones.
Magnetizing the third so it'll be a crone / harpy.
Still having a hard time thinking of a build. I need one around 1500 and 2000. One needs to use the swarmlord.
So I just have a few questions.
1) Trygon Prime. Haven't seen him talked about much. Trygon tunnels aside, Miasmia Cannon + bio containment + synapse worth the points?
2) Mawloc good enough to run one of? Or is a second necessary?
3) Biovores or Exocrines? Got 3 Bios, but I'm a huge fan of MCs. Is one vastly superior to the other?
4) Carnifex. Wouldn't run outside a 3 man brood. I assume Dakkafex is the build. Cannons have any place on him?
5) Never owned a single venomthrope. How important would they be for my first game? Should I run two?
1) It depends if you really need the synapse. Bear in mind that a normal Trygon has Feed, so he can't hurt himself, and he comes with Fleet, so he's very likely to make assaults. It depends if you really want the shooting.
2) Scatter is the issue here.
3) Can't we have both? 3 Bios, 1 Exo, 1 Trygon. Bam. All very useful.
4) Personally, I feel that Carnifexes are best used running up the field to attempt assaults. Devourers for sure, cannons, mainly the stranglethorn, are best left to harpies.
5) I don't own any, and I don't really plan on buying any; I can proxy if I want, but I do not necessarily need crap tons of cover saves.
Have I stumbled across a great combo, or am I wrong:
Using the Horror makes units take a pinning test at -3 ld. Let's say we have a Hive Tryant using the spell targeting another psyker. For the sake of argument, let's say the target is alone (i.e. not in a unit). would the target take his pinning test at -6ld? (3 from horror, and 3 from Shadows in the Warp)
Granted, probably kind of a waste, but if the psyker were in a group, it would cut his 9/10ld down a lot and may make the target unit use a much lower leasership even before the -3.
spaztacus wrote: Have I stumbled across a great combo, or am I wrong:
Using the Horror makes units take a pinning test at -3 ld. Let's say we have a Hive Tryant using the spell targeting another psyker. For the sake of argument, let's say the target is alone (i.e. not in a unit). would the target take his pinning test at -6ld? (3 from horror, and 3 from Shadows in the Warp)
Granted, probably kind of a waste, but if the psyker were in a group, it would cut his 9/10ld down a lot and may make the target unit use a much lower leasership even before the -3.
thoughts?
You are correct, only that The Horror forces you to pass on -2, not -3. Most Psykers won't be alone, however, except perhaps Nid psykers and Daemons. Unfortunately, Daemons (and Fearless Nids) are immune to pinning.
spaztacus wrote: Have I stumbled across a great combo, or am I wrong:
Using the Horror makes units take a pinning test at -3 ld. Let's say we have a Hive Tryant using the spell targeting another psyker. For the sake of argument, let's say the target is alone (i.e. not in a unit). would the target take his pinning test at -6ld? (3 from horror, and 3 from Shadows in the Warp)
Granted, probably kind of a waste, but if the psyker were in a group, it would cut his 9/10ld down a lot and may make the target unit use a much lower leasership even before the -3.
thoughts?
You are correct, only that The Horror forces you to pass on -2, not -3. Most Psykers won't be alone, however, except perhaps Nid psykers and Daemons. Unfortunately, Daemons (and Fearless Nids) are immune to pinning.
stormoffires wrote: ok guys im really confused... how our Biovors good now? (snip)... second round of shooting all three plates hit dead on, didnt do anything but killed a T4 battlesuite... (snip)
This is where you are going wrong, imo. Biovores should be dropping on the firewarriors, pathfinders, and other 4+ save units sitting in cover. No armor save, no cover save due to barrage. You start removing units wholesale. This reduces the small arms fire against your gribblies, and lets you focus your other units on the tough targets.
Sandokann wrote: After some testing at home I have some ideas to share:
3 Harpys are cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, 3 Maulocs are also cheaper than 3 Dakkafexes, spawn the same kind of force is always the way to go.... vehicles, infantery, flyers... MCs !!!
Basically 10 MC, 5 of them FMC, 60 gaunts, 4 Synapse nodes and nothing that really need it You reserve the 3 Maulocs and sometimes 1 of the Tervigons. Comm Array make the magic for you.
That makes 53 wounds of MCs witch we all know is pretty hard to down specially when they are pressing you hard.
"Maximun Threat Overload" I like the name, this is my view as an old hardass with grey hair in my balls of the most competitive list we can do atm.
Criticism please.
Played yesterday agains Necrons with this list, a good friend using a full equiped lord, 4 warriors squats, hayware criptecs, 3 flyers, 6 wraiths with a full equiped lord destructor, 2 monoliths 1 destro barge and 1 ctan.
I deployed all my army but 30 gaunts and the 3 mawlocs behind the ADL on 3rd deployment option mision was number 5. He deployed just the wraiths, hes walking lord with a big warriors unnit, 1 monolith and the barge.
1st turn I started flying with my 5 FMC, runned with the gaunts and managed to pop a lot more with the mamys, shooted the hell out of the ctan with dakkaflyrants and put some wounds into the warriors and wraiths with my harpies (I love them). Also had my comander flyrant activating his warlord 6 trait FNP due to a 12 while casting a psitch power .
He move up shooted everything to my comander but failed to do any wound or ground him, I saved more than 10 saves and FNP and 4 grounding test
2nd turn (this is where the pain come) i made 5 vector strikes to several things arround and moved out my 5 flyers to active reserve, the 3 mawlocs came in thank to the comm array and y decided not to let my 30 gauns in thanks also to the comm array. overall mawlocs managed to do their job but honestly 3 where too much cause i ended with no good target vs 1 of them, anyway 2 of them go in and did some kills and a 3rd 1 missed and was placed by my oponent in a far corner.
He rolled good on reserves, had the strategic trait to reroll them so he decided not to let his 3 flyers in and just pop his second monolith into my deployment area. he then killed and absorbed several gaunts with his monoliths. charged my 2 mawlocs in his deployment with the 2 scarab lords and wraiths, both of them decided to self inflict a lot of pain qand result with 1 dead puppy and 5 wounds on the other, his guys untouched..... go go go mind scarabs with MCs...
3rd turn I borrowed 2 mawlocs, My Flyers came in again flyrants killed the barge and casted lance on 1 monolith dealing 1 point of structure.. harpyes drop several pies into warriors and wraiths and some gaunts finally reach the shooting distance but to be honest i got bad dice results and killed few. by this time i had more than 100 gaunts on the table... hehehe
He then absorbed/shooted arround 30 gauts with his monoliths, killed my comander flyrant with his 3 flyers and managed a charge into 1 of my mamies. good turn for him.....
4th turn, my 4 remaining flyers killed 2 of his, and vector striked several warriors out, gaunts shooted a little and I finally lost my mami to his wraiths, lost another plain 30 gaunts to his monoliths.... bad bad...big boxes... the 2 mawlocs, 1 with 5 wounds pooped up to deal some preasure but few was acomplished... out of some wraiths killed and some warriors.
He killed more gaunts, got his monolith and remaining flyer pretty close to my second mamy and to my objetive and killed the remaining mawloc..... by this time he had linebreaker, comander, holds his objetive and was in an easy position to reclaim mine with his monolith and his flyer next to it....
My 5th turn saw more killing from me, several warriors died, more wounds to his wraiths, and i managed to contest his targed with gaunts and MCs. I charged his monolith with my Tervigon and had him done 2 internal but he the thing didnt died He Killed more gaunts, parachuted warriors into my objetive area to contest it and killed the last mawloc, tried to absorb mamy but mamy pased the I test.... clever mamii ... cleeeever. By the end of turn 5 both objetives where contested, both had made line breaker and 1 got first blood and he got comander... and we rolled dice... 6th turn !!!!
6th Turn, I shooted and charged with my 2 harpies, over 15 gaunts and my remaining flyrant into his last warriors but they all failed to kill them......., the other harpie killed the last flyer, my 40 gaunts killed the warriors contesting my objetive and the tervigon managed to destroy the abducting monolith. My deployment area was finally clean....
He cleaned my 2 walking Harpies, my dakkarant and some gauts buuuuut some of the remained there still in combat near his objetive... thank to that I winned the match after dice roll turned it off.
Thoughts:
3 Mawlocs are too much, 2 will do their job better. 3 Biovores are gonna be more than welcome for some extra preasure in turn 1, ADL is going out, no1 is gonna shoot the 60 gaunts having 7 MCs there to try to saturate.... out goes the ADL and the comm array, in come 3 venonthropes to split arround and give some help to gaunts, FMC, Tervigons and a easy first blood to my oponent Gonna go with 3 pie plates on harpies, the 4 S5fp4 shoots are good but flyrant are more than capable of dealing with flyers.
Im dreaming on the devourer fleets suplement to ally with them and use 3 Flyrants and 4 harpies. will take out 2 HS slots then and I will be using 7 FMCftw.
Harpies are great... can bomb 1 target and pieplate another for a lot of kills I simply love them.
My oponent, a good friend in my local club has adapted greatly to the new metagame using the monoliths, still i hope he stop using the Ctan and pop in another wraith squad.
i have a couple of noobish questions concerning flyrants and fexes.
first the fex:
if i assemble with a 2x twinlinked devourer is he still able to do all his attacks at AP2 since he's MC? if it's a yes then what's the point of schytes on a MC???
second the flyrant:
here is a modding issue... i've just noticed that in the flying pose the LEGS are supposed to be the second pair of shyting talons right? so if i wanna give him 2x devourers i have to go around with a silly looking flying blob with silly arms??? last but not the least am i allowed to use the walking legs variant/tail (wich i prefer) 1x TL devo and wings? this last question is linked to the first one because if someone tells me he can't use the second pair of shyting talons since i have mounted him on walking legs i can always say "he's a MC he's attacks are at AP2 so who cares of the schytes?"
p.s. i'm asking this on a tournament POV of course!^^
For you first question, scytals on fex is still good because it is still +1 attack with two pairs and cheaper than crushing claws. So with two pairs of melee giving +1 attack they aren't useless.
For the modelling question, usually people just use a converted twinlinked devourer that looks like two devourers on each hand, and keep the feet the same as they are.
spaztacus wrote: I've noticed a lot of people talking about spore mines and hitting S10. I think the design was put in for people who want to pay for a spore mine cluster outright. You can by them in groups of 3-9 I believe (dont have dex in frount of me). this is how you would get to S10 with them. When shooting from a group of biovores, they would be different clusters since it is spawned from the missed template.
Also on that note, I see people talking about barrage with the biovores. Would each shof roll to scatter as normal since it is different models shooting. Sure it is in the same group, but the weapon profile itself is Asault 1 , barrage. So it would not move around like a standard barrage. Am I right in this thought process.
how would their weapons not act like normal barrage? all the assault 1 means is they can move, shoot, and assault.
Maelstrom808 wrote:
stormoffires wrote: ok guys im really confused... how our Biovors good now? (snip)... second round of shooting all three plates hit dead on, didnt do anything but killed a T4 battlesuite... (snip)
This is where you are going wrong, imo. Biovores should be dropping on the firewarriors, pathfinders, and other 4+ save units sitting in cover. No armor save, no cover save due to barrage. You start removing units wholesale. This reduces the small arms fire against your gribblies, and lets you focus your other units on the tough targets.
folks i play rarely bring large infantry blobs to the table. If they due, they are in transports. So i guess my meta is different to the point Biovores are ineffective.
badula wrote:
Megamanrocks wrote: I've been reading this topic closely; haven't play a game since the new dex came out. Bought the collectors :p and working on three crones.
Magnetizing the third so it'll be a crone / harpy.
Still having a hard time thinking of a build. I need one around 1500 and 2000. One needs to use the swarmlord.
So I just have a few questions.
1) Trygon Prime. Haven't seen him talked about much. Trygon tunnels aside, Miasmia Cannon + bio containment + synapse worth the points?
2) Mawloc good enough to run one of? Or is a second necessary?
3) Biovores or Exocrines? Got 3 Bios, but I'm a huge fan of MCs. Is one vastly superior to the other?
4) Carnifex. Wouldn't run outside a 3 man brood. I assume Dakkafex is the build. Cannons have any place on him?
5) Never owned a single venomthrope. How important would they be for my first game? Should I run two?
can you show what are you doing to magnetize the crone?
things on the back aren't good to be magnetized the only things i think are easy to do are the head and the shooting arms and maybe tac to fix the tentaclids on their anchor points...
here is how i magnetized my crone/harpy (still WIP)
I dont care for the gun in the mouth, i like the idea that he is brewing up the drool cannon from within, ill come up with some arms for him later. But for now, the arms are magnetized as well as the missiles. The wings are very carefully slowly drilled out with a dremel so the magnet can sit recessed and then the use of the missile mount on the missile itself and boom! magnetized crone. If you are careful ( i wasnt on my first one) the guns will actually just slide on and off of the arms so you can swap them for what you want. (in my meta, they have no idea what gun does what and so i wasnt worried that i broke one of my stranngle gun heads)
Thanks for showing... i thought of that way but the problem is you have to glue the tentaclids on their anchors.... i'd like to save the tentaclids maybe to tick them on a flying base.... so the only way for me is to glu the anchors to the wings and then blue tac....
i don't see the problem to make the heads swappable....
p.s. you'll fix the magnet's area on the wings with liquid green stuff i presume...
Some day i will fix it haha lot on the plate atm, but ya id like to blend it. Personally having the anchors removed works well for me, and for when i swap from Crone to Harpy there is no anchors on the wings.
The heads are easy to do and you could even do the arms for the cron, i just dont like the cannon out the mouth, i like the more dragon approach where its the mouth making the flame not a cannon out the mouth.
anyone else feel the stubby legs of the crone/harpy feels stupid? lol
Noctem wrote: For you first question, scytals on fex is still good because it is still +1 attack with two pairs and cheaper than crushing claws. So with two pairs of melee giving +1 attack they aren't useless.
For the modelling question, usually people just use a converted twinlinked devourer that looks like two devourers on each hand, and keep the feet the same as they are.
Yeah but once you swap a pair of talons for a devourer the second pair becomes utterly wasteful?
can you show or point me to an image of those converter devourers?
you didn't respond me directly though to the most important question.....
a fex with 2xtwinlinked devourers keeps his 3x attacks at str 9 AP2 in melee (plus those for HOW if he charges)???
The second pair would become utterly wasteful if you went for a shooty fex, but they are free so that doesn't really matter. Losing the rerolls to 1's definitely hurts though.
A fex with 2xtwinlinked devourers would keep his baseline attacks, yes.
Noctem wrote: The second pair would become utterly wasteful if you went for a shooty fex, but they are free so that doesn't really matter. Losing the rerolls to 1's definitely hurts though.
A fex with 2xtwinlinked devourers would keep his baseline attacks, yes.
schyting talons DO NOT give anymore rerolls ;_;
for the base of that mod were used the claws right?
then devourers from the terma sprue
also the shoulder pads from terma sprue
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
More Dakka wrote: Good article, I will keep my eye on this since I am sure JY2 will be doing extensive play testing.
How bout this for kicks:
Ol' One Eye
5 stealers
Broodlord
5 stealers
3 Carnifex
3 Carnifex
3 Carnifex
1500
Synapse be damned; I'm going to the Klondike!
The carnifexes need synapse if they're in units. They can also eat eat themselves in a unit. Only solo feeders and Hunters get a pass on the 1-3 result on the IB chart.
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
For epic trolling, run this list against your opponent:
HQ:
Tervigon
Tervigon
Elite:
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Venomthrope
Troop:
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30
Total - 1785
So you still end up with 65 points to play around with in an 1850 game. Each of your turns is going to take 2 hours+, but the look on your opponent's face when you drop 275 models on the table (with the potential to spawn more) will be priceless.
Troop:
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Termagant x 30
Fast Attack:
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30
Gargoyle x 30
Total - 1785
So you still end up with 65 points to play around with in an 1850 game. Each of your turns is going to take 2 hours+, but the look on your opponent's face when you drop 275 models on the table (with the potential to spawn more) will be priceless.
for that list to be legal you're going to have drop one of those Tervigons to troops and drop a squad of Termagants in the process to get another HQ so you can have a Warlord.
In the spirit of learning about Tyranid Unit's strengths and weaknesses, I wanted to share my experience with trying out some various models. I played 2 games, one with a pretty standard build and another goofy, no-synapse army.
From the standard list I learned:
Venomthrope + ADL is a mean combination against anything that doesn't ignore cover saves. Pretty much anything behind the ADL will have a 2+ cover save while near a venomthrope. This makes a cheap and great way to secure back field objectives as well as keep your units safe for a turn or two.
Carnifex with HVC and a TL- Devourer. I had a unit of 3 of these bad boys behind the ADL and they lasted the whole game. Unfortunately this lead me to use them in a very ineffective way. I played too safely with them. I was either shooting at tanks, making the Devourers useless or shooting at infantry which make me want 2x devourers instead of just 1. I would say either run them with just the HVC or 2 TL-Devourers and charge any tank you get close to, but not both.
Tyrannofex with Rupture cannon. He penetrates tanks pretty well when he hits but he doesn't cause a lot of hits or explosions. It is also super depressing when a marine takes an S10 hit and it just bounces off his armor. The acid spray seems better unless you really need the range.
From the goofy, no-synapse army I learned:
Deathleaper can still easily die from a lucky melta shot if you are out in the open. I feel like he may be better if you deep strike him since it gets him safely near the unit that needs to die without having to run out into the open. Cheaper, standard licters are probably better for Mawloc beacons.
Old One Eye can do a lot of damage. Only being WS3 is rough but with 6 attacks on the charge, D3 HOW, and additional attacks when he hits, he is going to do about 4-5 wounds a turn which will ID almost anything that isn't an MC already. He is fun to use.
The Haruspex are not that bad but need AG and regen to really do some damage. I lost three wounds and regained them all back because of regen and his CC ability. He can be surprisingly resilient.
The IB effects aren't that bad on certain units. Some you can completely ignore. Any Feed MC that is by itself will never deal damage to itself. It defaults to the 4-5 roll which makes you move towards the closest enemy which is probably what you were doing anyways. Hunt can be a little more problematic since it may force you to shoot at a unit you didn't want to, but as long as you are fearless (like most MC's are) then it defaults to the 4-5 roll.
Bulldogging wrote: I think the argument is that it no longer has (character) as it's type.
Wait, what? A Tervigon can't be a Warlord because it doesn't have (character) as it's type?
1. I've never heard of that ruleing before that your Warlord MUST be a character
2. If that is the case, why even put it in the HQ slot GW?
1. "Whn choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. It is is always the HQ choice character with the highest Leadership." - Very first line on page 111
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Illumini wrote: GW helpline doesn`t know the rules and the BRB predates the nid book (duh), so that doesn`t mean much. BRB seems pretty clear in this case.
As good as flyrants are, I don`t really see the issue anyways
GW helpline does know the rules and this goes all the way back to the beginning of GW, their helpline or whatever its called now is the final say. the Nid dex probably has a typo
Bulldogging wrote: I think the argument is that it no longer has (character) as it's type.
Wait, what? A Tervigon can't be a Warlord because it doesn't have (character) as it's type?
1. I've never heard of that ruleing before that your Warlord MUST be a character
2. If that is the case, why even put it in the HQ slot GW?
1. "Whn choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. It is is always the HQ choice character with the highest Leadership." - Very first line on page 111
2. You have a second HQ slot, you know.
So if you were to only take Tervigons as an HQ choice, you wouldn't be able to have a Warlord? That doesn't make sense, that almost comes out as an advantage because you're not giving up the victory point.
While I'm going to miss by biomancy shenanigans I'd say that the new list is overall more competetive than it used to be even if it is very confused in points cost.
The Fluff though, is annoyingly a massive amount of copy and pasting with very little new.
The Tyranid Prime is something I'd avoid these days. His main draw before hand was that he was a cheap and easy HQ choice, but the Hive Tyrant has gotten cheaper and the Prime has gotten vastly more expensive.
The Pyrovore is still a pile of fail despite all the jokes about the new edition going to turn it into a god of combat (maybe next time little buddies) he's not quite as terrible as before, and the old standby of the Zoanthrope has suffered from the loss of pods and biomancy, but with the buff to venomthropes, the addition of the Hentai Monster also known as the Haruspex, Zoanthropes and Hive Guard still being good, and the Lictor going from abysmal to okay, they still struggle to find a purpose, especially as without pods they no longer can actually get to anyone.
The Tervigon has been hit hard, there's no getting around that. That being said, it's fall wasn't quite as extreme as the 4e to 5e Carnifex. It's still a valuable addition to any army and belongs in the troops slot, but with the major price bump and the loss of Biomancy it's no longer the standby it once was.
Termagants though have gotten buffed. Whereas there was once absolutely no reason to take anything but Borergants or Devilgants, the other options are now perfectly valid. Being able to mix and match weapons is a gray area in the rules because the wording of this codex's rules is atrocious, but it's a way to get devourers on the field without paying for a pricey devilgant squad.
Boneswords were sadly nerfed. Gone are the days of Bonesword warriors eating terminators. However, rending claws are still valid and warriors have a lot of attacks. Lash whip and rending claw Warriors will eat most units in melee. The problem is getting them to melee in an edition where shooting is favored, tyranid deep striking is gone, biomancy shenanigans are gone (goodbye Endurance, you will be missed) AP4 or better is everywhere, death by S8+ pieplate is annoyingly common, and the same song and dance used against every low armor ID vulnerable melee beatstick.
Exorcines are another in a long list of things to make TEQs cry themselves to sleep but the heavy slot is now hugely competitive
The Hive-Crone is probably the queen of the FA section and easily the best anti-air option we have.
Illumini wrote: GW helpline doesn`t know the rules and the BRB predates the nid book (duh), so that doesn`t mean much. BRB seems pretty clear in this case.
As good as flyrants are, I don`t really see the issue anyways
GW helpline does know the rules and this goes all the way back to the beginning of GW, their helpline or whatever its called now is the final say. the Nid dex probably has a typo
Never has been. And it gets overrulled in FAQ's all the time, and has been shown to not even know the basic rules before. Your welcome to use it, but be aware that all the major tournaments only rely on the printed FAQ's or internal FAQs
Bulldogging wrote: I think the argument is that it no longer has (character) as it's type.
Wait, what? A Tervigon can't be a Warlord because it doesn't have (character) as it's type?
1. I've never heard of that ruleing before that your Warlord MUST be a character
2. If that is the case, why even put it in the HQ slot GW?
1. "Whn choosing your army, you must nominate one model to be your Warlord. It is is always the HQ choice character with the highest Leadership." - Very first line on page 111
2. You have a second HQ slot, you know.
So if you were to only take Tervigons as an HQ choice, you wouldn't be able to have a Warlord? That doesn't make sense, that almost comes out as an advantage because you're not giving up the victory point.
The point being, that if you take a Trevigon, you have to take a second HQ to be warlord. Kind of explains why OOE has warlord trait but only and 8LD. You take a Tervigon with him and he can be Warlord despite the Trevigon's higher LD as he is the only character. Sammel on the Speeder has the same problem, so it is not an original issue to the nid codex. Just happened to be a popular unit that got hit.
Had my first game in the new codex last night, just a quick 1000 to test out some stuff (and to get in my first game on Vassal). Played against my brother's CSM.
My list:
HQ: Tyranid Prime
- Adrenal Glands, Toxin Sacs, Flesh Hooks, Maw Claws of Thyrax, Scything Talons
Heavy Support: Predator
- TL Lascannons and Heavy Bolter side sponsons
Predator
- Autocannon and Heavy Bolter side sponsons
Predator
- Autocannon and Heavy Bolter side sponsons
Overall impressions: It might just have been that he kept getting caught in challenges, or that he rolled badly when not in them, but I don't think the Prime is worth his points anymore. He used to be a great cheap option for an HQ, but he's been costed out of that role I feel, the Maw Claws plus Toxin Sacs seem pretty awesome, but I had terrible rolls. The Hive Crone is fantastic, he popped a Rhino with a vector strike the turn it came in, and thought the Tentaclids only hit 1 out of 4, he landed and popped two of the Predators in assault. The Exocrine was great as well, I never fired the large blast, only the streams, but it definitely did some damage. I feel the trick for this guy is finding ways to not move him so he gets that extra BS, definitely a huge difference when you're firing the streams. It's no slouch in combat either, my brother let one of his predator's get too close to it and I charged and wrecked it with Smash attacks. Biovores are roughly the same, wish I'd been able to test the new spore mine mechanics with them but I always managed to clip at least one model. Venomthropes are amazing, hands down, I never took them in the last codex, but now I can't see myself making a list without them. Synapse was less important than I had thought, I left my Biovores out of it for awhile, but they only weren't able to shoot twice. The Exocrine failed one, but fired on the squad I'd prefer anyway. I feel like as long as you keep it up for your small gribblies then you should be fine, any fire going into Synapse Creatures is fire not going into your hordes.
Tyranids came out on top, with 10 victory points to the Chaos' 8.
Highlights: Hive Crone killing a Rhino the turn it came in with a vector strike, perfect timing for my Warriors assaulting that squad. Hormagaunts making an unreal amount of 5+ cover saves to keep the cover line up for the rest of my squads. Cultists grounding and later killing the Crone in combat (by sweeping advance), but only after it had killed two Predators.
It's been awhile, but man I'd forgotten how hard Plague Marines are to get rid of.
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Ignore the raw nonsense and just play it as intended
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Ignore the raw nonsense and just play it as intended
How do you know that is RAW nonsense? The Malanthrope, unless it has changed in the update is also not a Character. There is history if non character HQ units.
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Ignore the raw nonsense and just play it as intended
How do you know that is RAW nonsense? The Malanthrope, unless it has changed in the update is also not a Character. There is history if non character HQ units.
it would be one thing if the tervigon was never a Character... but when the 6th edition BRB came out.. it made tervigons a CH. now suddenly its not a CH? bullshiz im waiting for the first FAQ. if a store/turny tells me i cant play my list cool im off to play friendlyer games then.
When 6th edition came out all Ork nobz were characters, now theyre not. If I tried to play all my nobz as characters, would you be okay with that? Of course not.
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out
for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I
think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Ignore the raw nonsense and just play it as intended
How do you know that is RAW nonsense? The Malanthrope, unless it has changed in the update is also not a Character. There is history if non character HQ units.
it would be one thing if the tervigon was never a Character... but when the 6th edition BRB came out.. it made tervigons a CH. now suddenly its not a CH? bullshiz im waiting for the first FAQ. if a store/turny tells me i cant play my list cool im off to play friendlyer games then.
When the BRB first came out, Nids could use the Biomancy powers, now they can't.
When the BRB first came out Nids could use Quadguns, then they couldn't, now they can again...
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Ignore the raw nonsense and just play it as intended
How do you know that is RAW nonsense? The Malanthrope, unless it has changed in the update is also not a Character. There is history if non character HQ units.
it would be one thing if the tervigon was never a Character... but when the 6th edition BRB came out.. it made tervigons a CH. now suddenly its not a CH? bullshiz im waiting for the first FAQ. if a store/turny tells me i cant play my list cool im off to play friendlyer games then.
So since BRB say Leaper is an elite and OOE is a Heavy I can run them as such? Remember the BRB list is out-of-date and is completely missing units from some armies. Codex are the only accurate place for Unit entries and right now Tervi just ain't a character. I already know state wide tournaments are enforcing the BRB page 111 and not letting Tervigons be Warlords anymore.
While the Tervigon was probably intended to be chosen as a Warlord, I can certainly see that her character status was taken away on purpose. The Tervigon doesn't seem like a creature that should be able to issue challenges or accept them. My friend who plays Orks would rage every time my Tervigon would issue a challenge and kill the hidden powerclaw Nob in the boy squad.
Furthermore, it is entirely possible that the Tervigon is intended to not be a Warlord in order to prevent low-points shenanigans. 500 pt lists with two Tervigons, for instance.
Played my first game last night against Tau. Played 2000 points and brought the following list :
flyrant - 2 x devourers - Hive commander
Flyrant - 2 x devourers
2 x venomthrope brood
2 x tervigon
2 x 30 man termagant brood
harpy
hive crone
18 gargoyles
mawloc
mawloc
3 x biovores
Tau list was something like this :
Buff commander
3 x crisis suts with plasma & fusion
6 markerlight drones
4 x firewarrior squads
2 man squad of stealth suits
large unit of kroot
riptide
tau flyer (not the bomber)
2 x hammerheads
1 skyray
game was pitch battle big guns 5 objectives. I basically just sat tight with the venomthropes out of LoS giving shrouded to everything. 2nd turn my flyrants came on, 1 mawloc, an outflanking tervigon & a harpy. The next turn everything else came on. So many threats, the Tau player couldnt put a dent in the swarm of MC's rushing at him second & third turn. One of my mawlocs got a super good hit on his command unit, and wiped out all his drones and 2 of the suits..effectively taking out his markerlight base, and helping clench the victory. Bottom of turn 4 the Tau player gave up the game, as all of his troops were gone, and the only thing he had left was a riptide and the flyer
I am really liking this list so far. I was kinda dissapointed in the hive crone, but I need to play more games to try it out, as 1 game isnt enough to get a read on if it is worth it or not. The main thing I notice from this codex form the last, is the sheer amount of bugs your can field. It was a noticeable difference in the amount of big MC's I had access to from this codex in a 2000 point game.
All in all, I had a fun time playing with the book, and feel better now having played with it than before, when I was just reading all the internet doom and gloom
^ Our lists are sharing the same kindred spirit of deepstriking impossible to ignore threats.
This past week I've had two games with the Crone where she was a severe underperformer, then two games where she did an amazing amount of damage and destruction. She needs to be deep striked though, in my opinion.
I really, really want to run two Mawlocs but I'm not yet willing to give up on Trygon.
My opponent made a critical error, and that was he came to me instead of making me foot slog. All of my reserves came in one turn two (Trygon, Mawloc, Crone, 30 Gants with devourers) and simply enveloped his forces.
Things I learned to further refine my list: Tervigon as as HQ and Warlord is probably how Im going next. Flyrant is such a bullet magnet and she can just sit there. I will continue to outflank 20 gants, and I am finally going to try Warriors out for cheap synapse, I've got a few coming via ebay.
Gargoyles are awesome, so many blinding tests were taken today...tarpitting in the extreme. I'm also finally coming terms with the fact that Trygon Prime just isnt what he used to be...he again failed to kill two tanks outright. It sucks, and I think Ill no longer be running him as a prime.
The three fex's with devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/stranglethorn, devourer/HVC is a LOT of fun. The 18 shots are more than enough to take out vehicles nearby or glance fliers to death, and the pie plates really add on the hurt.
My Flyrant needed repairs on its tail so I borrowed a friends Flyrant.
remember that the tervigon CAN'T be your general!
Mine does run as a general, until FAQ nothings stopping me.
Ignore the raw nonsense and just play it as intended
How do you know that is RAW nonsense? The Malanthrope, unless it has changed in the update is also not a Character. There is history if non character HQ units.
it would be one thing if the tervigon was never a Character... but when the 6th edition BRB came out.. it made tervigons a CH. now suddenly its not a CH?
Right, because with then 6th edition codex came out to replace the previous rules, they replaced all of them, not just the ones you did not like or agree with.
Just got in my first game with the new Tyranids and after all the nay-saying on the internet my opponent was VERY surprised with how lethal they really were, especially the shooting. I hadn't had a win in a while so it was nice to beat him down so badly.
Great post, thanks for the people who added valid information and took the time to really give back to this thread. But i think some people either guess, or misread/didnt read the codex, and sadly have some untrue information.
A) Mawlocs cannot deep strike and burrow in the same turn.
B) Veno does say a model within 6" gets shrouded, but shrouded states 1 or more models in the unit...
C) Gaunts cannot get deathspitters...
Now that said, I like the Harpies and even a big unit of warriors with death spitters, attached with a tyranid prime.
And i admit i did not play tyrannids before. But 165 points, you get a great T6 counter attack unit, shooting 6 shots, str 8 , ignores cover and doesnt require line of site.
I really like the Exocrine also, good gun, good shooting profiles, and another big T6 MC that has to be dealt with.
For some reason the spore mine thingy/biovores is not doing it for me. the blast from the weapon isnt that great. So yeah you spawn a few spores, and Sure you can move them and assault with them. But They have no save and T1.. i mean you could throw a pillow at them with overwatch and kill them.... Well unless you play deamons like me.
I do see a lot of things that do not make sense, like some things that happen during assault, that specifically states "does str X, that ignore cover". You cant take cover saves in hand 2 hand anyway, is this some sort of signal for the next addition or errors?
They state they ignore cover because they're shooting style attacks triggered in melee. Since only melee attacks inherently ignore cover but shooting attacks do not, the addition was added for clarification. So, no it's not superfluous - it actually shows some forethought in the rule.
, sure it's only got 4 attacks on the charge but the additional attacks generated are quite cool, I basically treat it as 5/6 attacks basically when all is said and done, adrenal glands are a must though
. 
. Would that help, or is the loss of the Carnifex not worth it?
but spinefists take the edge thanks to rerolls to hit. Equal on T4, slight advantage towards T3 for spinefists. The main differences will be against light vehicles, which fleshborer have a little chance to glance, but having to shoot on vehicles with gaunts is quite an extreme possibility, isn't it ? On the other hand, in situations where you have to rely on snapshots (pinned out of synapse, 
because Melee weapons Really Needed 
Nerf
)
